Tiger Sisters - The Hidden Mindset Making You Burned Out & Lonely —And the Stanford Fix No One Talks About

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is 20s versus 30s. We're going to compare and contrast dating and career in our 20s versus our 30s, talk about all the things we learned and the mistakes we wish we avoided. I'm Sheree and I'm 29. I'm Gene and I'm 36. And where are the Tigers sisters? We've heard you guys and all the questions that you've sent in and we've been able to address some of them in seasons three and seasons four. But we really wanted to make a special episode so that we could just super dissoning. still all of our main learnings into just one episode.

Starting point is 00:00:46 I will be right back after this break. Hey guys, quick break to let you know that we now have merch on sisters matcha.com. We have sweatshirts and t-shirts that we designed yourselves. Go check it out. And please rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. These ratings are so important for the distribution and survival of Tiger Sisters Podcast. Thank you for your support. Okay, Sheree, why don't we start with the topic of dating?

Starting point is 00:01:09 So now that you're 29, what are some of the lessons that you've learned throughout your 20s and now that you're about to enter your 30s? Yeah, 29 is a weird age. I feel like I'm in a strange transitionary period, which means like I'm thinking about this a lot and how it affects my life. I think like the number one thing that I've learned throughout my 20s about dating is not making it about the other person. Oh. Yeah. I think like centering it more. on myself is something I wish I had done and something I'm going to bring with me into my 30s. I totally thought you were going to say the opposite, but keep going.

Starting point is 00:01:48 No. Like, I feel like in my 20s, I went into relationships, friendships, friendships, too, with a very people-pleasing mindset. And as a result, I would, like, maybe, like, discard or let go of pieces of myself that were really important that I shouldn't have let go of for, and compromise. Maybe that's the word I'm looking for. Compromised what I was looking for or, you know, like bit my tongue, didn't say how I was actually feeling because I was afraid of how that would make the other person feel.

Starting point is 00:02:21 So in a way, I sacrificed, I think, my own identity for the sake of a relationship. But it wasn't even like a relationship built on a strong foundation because I wasn't completely myself. Yeah. I think it's kind of, it reminds me of scarcity mindset. Like you're afraid to lose the relationship that you would. that you're in so you try to like tailor yourself and do things to like hold on to that relationship. Yeah, totally. I mean, it's also just like the question when you go into a job interview, not to make this about career so fast, like when you're going into a job interview,

Starting point is 00:02:54 it's like, oh my gosh, I hope they'll like me, but you're also interviewing the company too. Like I hope I like them. But why don't I, why didn't I bring that mindset? And I'm not blaming myself or anything. I'm just like, this is what I've learned. But like, why didn't I bring that mindset into relationship is as much as like I hope they like me. I'm like, do I even like them? Yeah. I think it's because when you're younger, most of the time, you're less secure with yourself. Yeah. I think it's growing in confidence, growing in, you know, self assurance of who I am. And I mean, just like growing of self in general. Like when I'm 22, the thing that really defined me are like my family experiences and like what I studied in school. But since 22 to 20, to

Starting point is 00:03:39 29, I've had so many different experiences and I've put myself in positions to have these experiences, whether it's travel or friendship, just like seeing more, reading more, going to concerts, just like figuring out like more about myself and what I like, such that like I'm so excited and proud of who I am that like now going into my 30s, like I want to double down on that as opposed to letting go of that. Hmm, very eloquent. Oh, thanks. I mean, I have been thinking about this a lot.

Starting point is 00:04:09 I think, I mean, one thing I wrote down to make this like more tactical, like one thing you can do if you're also experiencing this too is that like whenever going into a date or a relationship, like I try to now reframe it in my mind as like what am I learning from this experience as opposed to like, oh my God, it's a breakup and like being so sad, which I definitely get that way. But like kind of turning it into like, okay, that happened. but what did I learn about myself and what I like and what I don't like? And in that way, it makes it a little less devastating. Yeah, I think that's a good way to go through life in general is to just reframe everything as a learning experience. Right? Because then you always gain something from it no matter what.

Starting point is 00:04:55 Yeah. Like maybe in your mind you do feel like, oh, like I lost this relationship or I lost this job opportunity or you kind of reframe it. You're like, okay, what did I actually learn? What did I gain from this? instead. I think that also just goes back to like how you said the scarcity versus abundance mindset. It's like super abundance mindset. Like what can I learn from this? And like there are other good things coming my way. It's funny. I thought you were going to say the opposite because I kind of have like

Starting point is 00:05:25 a similar lesson, but I phrased it in a very different way. Let's hear it. Okay. Okay. Okay. No, the way that I had phrased it, but it's sort of like has like a similar germ as yours, the way I said it is that it's actually not about you. And I know like you've sort of said this phrase in like earlier episodes. Actually, the way I'd say it is don't take it personally. And in so many ways, like it's actually not about you. And like I can see how that can be concerning to people to sort of like decenter yourself from your own like self narrative.

Starting point is 00:06:04 but instead I actually think in so many ways it is incredibly freeing. Like it is like think about like if you walk through life with that thought like really deeply embedded in you and you're like it's not about me. Like think about how like free and light you'll be. Right. Like not taking things personally. Yeah. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:06:26 Like if someone cuts you off on the highway, it's not about me. They're rushing because they have to get home to pick up their kids or like they really have to go to the bathroom. It's not about me. But in this instance, I think it's more so, like, if you go through a breakup or you feel like you were rejected or even like it applies to friendships, right? Or even careers. Like, if you were rejected for something or something doesn't work out, it's not always on you. It's not about you necessarily. That's something that honestly took me a really long time to learn. I think because the perspective that I came from was one being the eldest daughter and then two just being like

Starting point is 00:07:10 really type A and like always trying to be like controlling things around me and being a people pleaser and also kind of being like sort of like parentified a little bit growing up and always trying to like make things good and make things right and like have things happen correctly for everyone and try to maximize everyone's well-being and happiness. perhaps at the expense of your own. Exactly. Yeah. And so I think like that was sort of the mindset that I grew up with.

Starting point is 00:07:40 And so I always felt like, well, there's always something I can do to like fix the situation. Like I always took on the responsibility. And I sort of did make it about me. And I did take things very personally, whether it was, you know, like not getting the promotion that you thought you were going to get. And you like very much were told that you deserved and blah, blah, right? Like you have a story about that too, right? So it applies to, I think, both relationships and careers. Just, I think just like sit with that and then try to pull it out sometimes if you're kind of feeling bad about something. Like try on that thought and be like, it's not about me. Like, don't take it personally.

Starting point is 00:08:19 Like, what are ways that like put yourself in the other person's shoes and be like, why would they have done that in a way? Like, what is the reason they would have done that that has nothing to do with me at all? I think it's really interesting that your advice to say it's not about you and my advice is to say it is about me. So I'm not really sure what to make of that. Like it is, but it isn't about you. We literally game sort of like the opposite. No, they're not exactly opposite. They're like kind of orthogonal.

Starting point is 00:08:49 Like I still think they work together. They do work together because in one complete phrase, sorry to interrupt you, but you could say like it is about me, but I don't take it personally when. it's not it's about me or what did how did you say it like focus on myself or something focus on my needs center yeah I guess oh you know what I guess to say it eloquently it would be like focus on what matters to you prioritize your needs so that when you give it your all and it doesn't work out you know it's not about you because you've said everything that you've needed to say you've voiced you know all of your concerns. Does that make more sense? Yeah. Do you want to take a stab at it? Yeah. Or like if it is about you, then like good. Like because, because then you're like, I was truly

Starting point is 00:09:41 myself and it didn't work out. And like I can't go through life pretending to be someone else or like changing myself in a way that I'm not comfortable with. I mean, I've already tried that and it freaking sucks. My drop. Yeah. We don't need to go there. I'm seeing a therapist. I'm seeing a therapist. to be. I was pretending to be a different version of myself in college and a people-pleasing person. And I kind of like lost myself in that and in the relationship I was in. And ultimately, I discovered my own voice and what matters to me. And I knew I could no longer be in that relationship in college. Remember that? Weird. She talks a lot. You talk a lot. You got a lot of stories. I can't keep track of all of them. Yeah. I think that's actually one of the most powerful lessons is that if nothing else, you are,

Starting point is 00:10:27 yourself, people respect them more and you can just like hold on to your self-respect. Yeah. I do think that the people respect anymore thing is something that I've learned over time in general, even just my own perception of people. And like even if someone is like, I don't know, like the nerdiest, most like socially awkward, like whatever like weirdest person, when they're genuinely themselves, you just respect them so much more. Absolutely. And you actually, it's very endearing. Like you actually naturally like them better as opposed to if they were to try to be like,

Starting point is 00:11:05 I don't know, some sort of like cool persona that is not actually true to who they are. Yeah. I totally feel that. And I feel like people can see, at least I can see through really clearly for the most part when someone's pretending to be something that they're not. And I get pretty turned off by that. You just watch out. She can see through you.

Starting point is 00:11:28 Be yourself. So, Jean, what is your take on dating in your 20s versus 30s since you've experienced both? Unlike me. Yeah. Dating in your 20s for me was all about having fun and discovering yourself by like getting to know someone and learning about other people, learning about humanity, doing things for the lore, for the plot. Yeah, for the future memoir. Yeah, I just, I don't think I took dating in my 20s very seriously. I wasn't as, I would say, thoughtful as you are about it in your 20s. And like, I definitely didn't have any sort of formula.

Starting point is 00:12:09 I was more so just very open to all like different types of people, all different walks of life. I wasn't structured like you are now. Yeah. Well, I feel like I'm more structured now. But I remember like even when I was like 22, 23, 24, like I would be devastated after a. breakup and your advice to me would be like don't take it so seriously. And like I couldn't not. You know what I mean? What did you think when I said that to you? I was thinking like, you don't know. I was like, you don't know what I'm feeling. But I don't know. I just took things way more seriously than I think like now hearing that. I can see why you're like, don't take it so seriously. Yeah. Well, but also like I mean, I went through breakups for sure where I was like

Starting point is 00:12:50 heartbroken and devastated. But they all sort of like passed. So it was fine. Okay. And then now that I'm in my 30s, I do feel like I have some lessons that I'm taking with me from my 20s, especially coming out of several very serious relationships that I've had that are kind of like shaping the way I'm approaching dating now in my 30s. Okay. The first one is that I would say I would no longer date for potential. Yeah. I'm sorry, but all the TikToks they tell me now, all the advice is they don't date, you don't date for potential. is what they tell you. Yeah. That's kind of a hard shift, especially when I feel like in the past, I have dated people who have, like, incredibly high potential. And I've seen, you know, some of the people that I've dated become extremely, like, successful in different ways.

Starting point is 00:13:44 I think what they say on TikTok is they're like, don't be Barbara the builder. Yeah. And it's very easy. I think for a lot of women to fall into that role naturally. because women are taught to be very, like, nurturing and women are taught to help others societally. So it's very easy to feel, I think especially if you're dating someone who you respect, if you respect them and you're, like, excited about them, you want to help them. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:14:12 With, like, their career, with their aspirations, with their dreams. And you kind of can see how you can, like, grow together. What I would do now is just take someone 100% at face value. The cold, hard facts of what we see inside of us. Yeah. And by face value, I mean who they are today and not just who. And the definition of who they are today is not what they say. It's what they do.

Starting point is 00:14:40 I don't know. The example that came to my head that's like an unrelated anecdote is like, let's say you see someone or you're with someone who's like, yeah, I love to do like marathon And I'm so into like Iron Man's and I'm just always working out all the time. And I'm just really into fitness. But like physically they're very obese. So like would you trust them by what they say or would you actually look at like what you see in front of you?

Starting point is 00:15:12 Their their daily actions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like I say that as an extreme example because you can actually physically see in that example, the contrast between what they say and what they actually do and how they like physically show up day to day. But it's it's also like so true when it comes to everything else. Yeah. Right. If someone is like, yeah, like I can't wait to have a family and I can't wait to, you know,

Starting point is 00:15:41 have children and get married and bubble all this stuff. But they're actually acting in a way that is counter to that. Then like you really have to just take them at. what how they act not what they say yeah someone that I had dated um over over the last two years anyways I don't get more detail than that um he was just like oh my gosh like I love you know going on road trips and you know I love going like let's go to this place and I was like okay yeah let's do it let's do it hello didn't know how to drive no it wasn't that it was just that he like never planned anything even have a license even though he said i mean that was true didn't have a u.s license but like but like okay so you love all you love going to these places or you want to go to these national parks

Starting point is 00:16:32 but like okay so plan it you know you know what they say on tictock i love the taste i love the taste of nothing what i've never heard them say that one ticot yeah okay three more lessons that i'll just go through really quickly much more quicker much more quickly than the last one is this one kind of like sounds like a downer, but it's really just being realistic. And it's that love alone is not enough. And I think, I don't know, maybe that sounds really obvious. But when you're sort of like in the throes of a relationship and you are, you know, getting all the serotonin, the oxytocin and everything and you're like deeply in love,

Starting point is 00:17:13 it can be very easy, I think, to think that like you can sort of overcome. any obstacles because you are so in love with each other. If we are to have three children, God willing, they need to be supported. Love alone is not enough. Yeah. Otherwise, I would still be engaged or I'd be married at this point. Okay, next one. When you marry someone or when you commit to someone for the long term as your partner,

Starting point is 00:17:45 you are marrying not just that person, but you are married. a lifestyle. I think that's something people don't really talk about. And their family. Yes. Is that included in lifestyle? Yeah. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:17:59 So, like, how do they interact with their family? Like, how do they, you know, what do they do for their holidays? Like, how do they structure their years? How do they think about their, like, life planning? Like, do they think five years in advance? Do they think 10 years in advance? Or do they just think about the day, the day, the day, day and just kind of like roll with things right like that those are all components of lifestyle

Starting point is 00:18:23 um not to mention like all the other aspects like you know politics religion um health working health working out socioeconomic class like all of those things are components of a lifestyle and like very practically that is what you are opting into that's not very romantic yeah and it's not meant to be. But it's just like the, I guess the reality of it. I guess for me, like I'm saying these things. I think because I am, I've mentioned this before, like inherently a very romantic person. So like I've had to like sort of come to these realizations and like teach myself the cold, hard truth because I naturally start off at the very opposite end of those spectrum. So like these are things that I need to remind myself, you know, like heading into my 30s or being in my 30s now.

Starting point is 00:19:14 the last thing I'll say is trust your intuition and then a related note is be realistic about the life cycle of your relationship. What I mean by that is I think a lot of times like looking back on all of the relationships that I've ended over the course of my 20s and 30s, every single one of them looking back on it, I was like, I wish I had just ended it the first. first time. I thought like, I don't think this is going to work out. Because like already the sort of like mental hurdles that you've already taken to even get to admitting that to yourself, you know, like I don't think this is going to work out. Like I think we need to break out. Like break up. Like you've already done so much mental work to prevent yourself from getting there that like

Starting point is 00:20:07 even having that thought it means that it's pretty much like so far gone. That like you really, it's not going to, like it's probably going to. So what you're telling me is we should hire slowly fire fast. I forgot we had to do like the career parts too. We got so caught up in this. Yes, you're so right. You're crazy? I'm not to bring the career part into it.

Starting point is 00:20:33 I'm sorry. I'm so, she's so capitalism pill. I'm so corporate brainwashed. She's so corporate pill. Oh my God. That's exactly what I thought of, right? Yeah, I totally forgot. Because I was lost in the sauce.

Starting point is 00:20:50 I also, I mean, one of my like regrets, regrets, thanks that I agree with my. Yeah, I agree. Is that like, damn, I really wish I ended those relationships sooner. Yeah. Instead of, like, trudging through and like, you know, trying to do like all these crazy things to make it work. Mm-hmm. And also, I think part of it is that you don't want to, like, It's like you don't want to admit defeat.

Starting point is 00:21:16 Yeah. Or like fighting for something that is already kind of going downhill. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's also lost aversion too. Loss aversion. Yeah. And it's much harder when like going through a breakup. Like the reason why people don't do it sooner is because it's a really bad feeling.

Starting point is 00:21:33 It's no matter what, it like sucks to break up. Yeah. And so you're like avoiding feeling that feeling. But obviously that's like a near term solution and not a long term. term solution. Yeah. Because in the near term, you'll feel really bad for the first, I don't know, days, couple of weeks. Does J-Kirk? I'm trying to show you a chart right here. Like, whenever you do something challenging, it's going to suck first. How bad? Like real bad. Even if you're doing, you know, if you're doing like a half marathon, a marathon, it's going to suck

Starting point is 00:22:04 first. But then, like, after you're done with it, like your life gets better. Yeah. Same thing with breakups. Anything hard, like leaving a job, it's going to suck first. You know, leaving a relationship. It's going to suck first. Yeah. But if you've been thinking about it, like, probably it's not going to last. But that's also why people don't do challenging things in their lives is because of the near-term suck. Like, I learned this from Graham Weaver.

Starting point is 00:22:28 One of my professors at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, he actually has a chart. I'll see if I can find it and put it here. Do they pay you? Are you like? I wish they did make back some of that tuition. But there's like a chart that Graham Weaver has that. that shows that like it's just like life is a progression of like downwards like sucky moments life is what what is that's a TikTok meme that nobody has ever heard of i don't know what you're

Starting point is 00:22:55 decided about but anyways life is going to suck a little bit when you do challenging things but it goes up into the right and maybe this looks like left right now because it's reverse but it's going up into the right yeah yeah yeah but yeah and then back to the first part of my lesson that i didn't really emphasize that much is just trust your intuition. And that's all there is. Like there's, I think there have been a lot of times in my 20s into my 30s where I didn't listen to my intuition and I tried to like squish down this like niggling feeling of like something is wrong here, like something I feel really uncomfortable. And there's a reason for that. Like your body is trying to tell you something that you refuse to recognize in your brain. Or you can't even recognize in your brain. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:41 like because your brain is not recognizing it, your like brain body gut access is trying to tell you in another way. So like that's why your like stomach hurts or your stomach feels weird or you have stomach problems when like these, you know, certain things happen. So I think just maybe one thing you can do is actually just start to pay attention to it and be like, when do I feel kind of like off and weird? Like is it around certain people? Is it when certain things happen? I bet in like 20 to 30 years, there's going to be a science around this, like actual studies that are done around the concept of intuition and, like, your gut, where they do some sort of studies around, like, gut microbiome and then your, like, brain and, like, the access between it and, like, how there's, like, information in your bodily changes and stuff like that. I said it. Okay.

Starting point is 00:24:39 Can someone research this? Can we get like an NSA grant going? Okay. So that concludes our section on dating. We're going to talk about career right after this break. Hey, everyone, quick break to share something special, Sisters Macha. We've launched limited batches of ceremonial grade, single estate, single cultivar, matcha, straight from the family farm Shari worked on in Japan.

Starting point is 00:25:04 It's pure, authentic, and crafted with intention. Head to SistersMacha.com to grab yours. before it sells out. Make Macha your daily ritual for lasting energy and focus. Okay, Sharii, so why don't you get us started? How did you approach career in your early 20s versus now that you are heading into your 30s? What lessons do you have? What I'm going to share right now is going to seem counterintuitive. In my 20s, I think I overprioritize career over other aspects of my life and put too much focus on my career. And maybe that's why I am where I am today. But I think it was at the sacrifice or at the loss of other things. I think the thing to prioritize

Starting point is 00:25:45 if I were to do it all over again and something I'm thinking about now as I approach my 30s is relationships. I think relationships are the make or break of everything of people's career, of people's businesses, of everything in life is like a relationship. For my life, I found that so much of it is people-based. And so the example I'm going to give is that I was on a work trip in 2018 with a bunch of my cohort, people in my cohort. We went to Japan and India for a business trip. And it was an incredible trip. And we went with, you know, some of our VPs of our group, the people who are leading

Starting point is 00:26:23 the trip. This is all like a LinkedIn employee trip. It was great. And I just remember that far too often in that trip, I felt like overly stressed out. And no one was putting pressure on me to work on this work trip. Like the work that was supposed to be done on this trip was to hang out and get to know. my other like co-workers and colleagues but I was just like kind of heads down in my room sometimes like you know trying to send out an email to people who were in sunny bail or my team back in san francisco

Starting point is 00:26:50 and it was because I put all this pressure on myself to do these things that no one else told me to do when I feel like I should have prioritized spending more face time like that's the goal of the trip is to have that face-to-face conversation and that like bond building experience but I don't know I just felt kind of weird that I was just like, oh, I'm going to prioritize these emails or, you know, this thing that I need to write, this memo I need to write. But yeah, I don't know. I think I just put like prioritized work, but in the wrong way. I feel like you are a shiny example of having prioritized relationships. Yeah. I feel like you've done an amazing job of it and you have such strong relationships through all of the different phases of your life and all the different like people you've interacted. acted with. Yeah. So like, I don't know, I feel like you're kind of being hard on yourself.

Starting point is 00:27:44 Maybe. I just kind of remember now, like, when my friends who are these people who are on the trip with me, like, they'll reminisce about an event or like. She has FOMO. I have FOMO, but like, they'll reminisce about like going out or like going to this thing or like it's actually happened on this trip and then outside of this trip too where I've been like, oh, I'm going to skip out on that for like a reason that I don't now think is like probably valid. But I'm like, one, I have Fobo and two. I'm just like, what the hell was I doing? I was like in my room writing an email. How important could that email have been if I could have been with the people who now mean a lot to me.

Starting point is 00:28:18 And I feel like our relationship could have gone deeper, faster or whatever. But I don't know. I just feel like I prioritize the wrong parts of career in my early 20s. Hmm. Yeah. Like I think it's because I thought the grind was all that was needed to get ahead. And that's not what is all. That is not what is only needed to get ahead.

Starting point is 00:28:38 I think so much of it is relationships and it is face time and it is people getting to know you and liking you and wanting to work with you. Yeah. So I guess your point is like even though in my perspective, I feel like you are such a shining example of that. You're like I should have done it even more. I think so. Yeah. Hmm. So my recommendation is that like I've seen how important relationships are for if you're getting a new job, so much of it is referral based. If you're trying to get promoted. So much of it is people vouching for you. Just really invest in those relationships in your early 20s, getting to know people, giving them, you know, undivided attention and active listening, making people feel heard. I think building those relationships will get you

Starting point is 00:29:24 much further than just grinding. Like, you have to be a good employee, I'm sure, but like just, just the grind will not help you get to the next level. That's true. And the thing that I'm taking with me into my new decade of 30 is risk-taking. I feel like coming out of college, I had a pretty, like, very fortunate to have a very stable job and then to go to business school, which I absolutely loved. And now I'm in this new era where it's all about risk, all about trying new things. It's like super scary. But like taking a career risk, I think right now is probably like the best time to do it before I have any dependence crawling around and any more like responsibility in that way. I don't know. I just feel so energized and excited about risk taking in my career. And that's kind

Starting point is 00:30:17 of how I'm going to see this next phase. I think if you're able to take risks and you don't have dependence or even if you do have dependence, like taking a risk in your career is really scary. But I'm more afraid of the feeling of not knowing and not doing it and the feeling of regret, then I am afraid of the feeling of failure or just failure. Yeah, I think that's very brave. Okay, so Gene, what is something that you've learned in your 20s and or 30s about career? Yeah, so I do agree with your point of how I think like the way that I approach my 20s, especially because of the first job that I started in, which was working in finance at Coleman Sacks.

Starting point is 00:31:02 It was all about grinding. I do think like having relationships definitely helped, but a lot of that job was about putting in the time, putting in the face time, meaning like being at your desk, like if you were at your desk, like 70 hours a week versus 90 hours a week or 100 hours, like that was definitely noticed. you know what I mean like that was a difference so like a lot of that job success was defined by grinding so I think I took that mindset into pretty much like all of my other jobs after that and that was kind of how I approached my career in my 20s where I was like you know I might not be the best at XYZ but I can I know I can learn anything and I will like outwork people so that I could be as good as

Starting point is 00:31:54 anyone to do this like one thing or if not better yeah i think it definitely served me well because i think that that mindset made me more unafraid to take on new things after finance that's when i moved into being cut into being a product manager at zinga which was at the time being a pm without a technical background i didn't ever study computer science was very very very, very rare. And I was also much younger than the rest of my cohort. So when I started being a PM, I was 24. And pretty much everyone else who was starting as a PM was 28, 29 in their 30s. Part of being a PM is that you have to kind of like tell everyone else on the team what to do or convince them to do what you want. So like in my role, you know, I was constantly telling like people

Starting point is 00:32:47 who are in their 30s, 40s, 50s what to do and like trying to convince them. So that was really hard. I was like, okay, I can do it because I can learn anything. I can master anything because I've done that before in my previous role where I started at Gle, but not even knowing how to use Excel. Yikes. Really? Yeah. How did you get hired?

Starting point is 00:33:08 Just personality. Just personality hire, I suppose. Wow. Daddy's money must be nice. Daddy's money must be nice. It's nice that daddy got you a job. Having daddy must be nice too. Oh.

Starting point is 00:33:20 She really went there. Yep. That's for another episode. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. The grind helped you help.

Starting point is 00:33:32 The grind served you, but it didn't help later on. You're just kind of agreeing with me with your own story. Okay. That's fine, I guess, to like say I agree with you, but give another perspective to it. Yeah. But I guess what I'm trying to say is I am agreeing with you. but not fully agreeing with you. I'm saying that the grind is useful.

Starting point is 00:33:56 The grind is helpful. The grind can be your path to becoming sort of like unstoppable. Yeah. And just like fully confident and it can be your path to becoming unafraid to take on like an experimental period in your life. Which is kind of I think also obviously where I am now. Right. Because we're doing this together, which is crazy.

Starting point is 00:34:18 I think context matters too. like the agreement that you grew up in. Yes. Like if you're in the financial sector for your early years, the grind is really appreciated. I think it's required. Okay. Is required. In the tech world, the grind is not the culture.

Starting point is 00:34:34 Of course, if you do grind, people notice. Sorry, in the big tech world. The grind is not the culture. Like, people notice when you're working hard. And obviously, you have to have some standard of excellence. But, like, it's not as usually rewarded the way that it is. incentivized in more traditional sectors. Yes, I think it also depends on the role because if you are in a product manager role,

Starting point is 00:34:58 like a lot of your job is to, you know, win hearts and minds and influence people and convince people to do things. That depends on relationships. Yes. Versus in my role at Goldman where I was an analyst or even as an associate. A code monkey. Yeah. Like I was like a machine with flesh.

Starting point is 00:35:17 Jesus. No, like I mean like they wanted me. me to like do something. Yeah. And like the way to excel was to do that as to do that the best. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And you're right. It does depend on the role as well. Yeah. Industry role, team. I mean, context matters. So, you know, take this advice and evaluate your life and take what serves you and leave what doesn't. Yeah. But I will say, I think like a overall truth is that as you get more senior in your career, generally most of the time you move away from that purely I see individual contributor role where you're, you know, only ever measured on your contributions.

Starting point is 00:35:56 On your output. Yeah, that's a better way of putting it. On your output, relationships matter more and more. Yeah, you're measured on your influence and your ability to influence. Yeah. And that's where the idea of like the brilliant jerk comes in, right? Like the like 10x engineer in tech who is actually like really rude and like a jerk to people. That's the archetypal archetypal example that age. HR uses where they're always like, we actually don't want that. We don't want to reward that. Even if they're like the best engineer in the world, if they can't work well with other people, we shouldn't continue to promote them. Thank you guys so much for tuning in to this episode of the Tiger Sisters as we reflect on our 20s and 30s and think about how we're going to take some of the lessons into our next chapter. We hope you enjoyed this episode. And as always, please remember to like, comment and subscribe. And if you're listening to this on Apple Podcast

Starting point is 00:36:49 or Spotify, please give us a five-star review. We'll see you next time. Bye.

Tiger Sisters - The Hidden Mindset Making You Burned Out & Lonely —And the Stanford Fix No One Talks About

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