Tiger Sisters - The Self-Made Billionaire Playbook: No Trust Fund. No Connections. Just Guts.

Starting point is 00:00:00 You are on the Forbes billionaire list with a Forbes self-made score of 10 out of 10. So I do think that I am self-made, but I don't sort of begrudge the circumstance. I think early adversity is probably a huge advantage. You went to Harvard for undergrad. Is it responsible for success or just a nice flex? Yeah, this one's going to be a little controversial. Mark Cuban, business genius or overrated TV billionaire. Oh, man.

Starting point is 00:00:27 Okay, look, let's talk about the facts. If you were starting from zero today, what is the first real move that you'd make to build wealth? The truth is that when you don't have anything, can you find maneuvers and tactics for yourself that aren't about capital? Everybody has fear. We all have fear about something. And so what do you do with it? When are we talking about love? I think Fernando wants to set us up.

Starting point is 00:00:52 Really? I mean, I will try. I will work really, really hard. Let me ask you guys. Yeah. About love. How to very driven, highly intelligent women, does it make it difficult to date? You know what? Going back to your earlier point, this is the Tiger Sisters podcast where we talk about money, power, and love. We are number 11 top business podcast on Spotify. Today we talk about the truth about building wealth from nothing. They say generational wealth is the key to success, that you need a trust fund or a last name that people recognize.

Starting point is 00:01:40 But what if you could build a billion-dollar empire in one lifetime? Today's guest didn't grow up with wealth. He didn't have the elite connections. By the end of this episode, you won't just know Fernando's wild story from crossing borders to building a multi-billion dollar empire. You'll walk away with his top three rules for building and keeping generational wealth. I'm Cherie. I'm Gene. And I'm Fernando.

Starting point is 00:02:06 And we're the tiger sisters. And I'm the tiger brother. Hey friends, it's Sherey and Jean from Tiger Sisters. We need your help. We just dropped our very first audience survey, and it's actually really important to us. Why? Because we want to create the best content for you, and learning more about you helps us to do that. It takes less than five minutes to fill out, and as a thank you, we're giving away a $100 gift card at the end of the season to one listener who fills out the survey.

Starting point is 00:02:34 The link is in the video description. Please fill it out. Thank you for being a part of this with us. Tiger Sisters is just getting started. Fernando. Some intense questions. You are on the Forbes billionaire list with a Forbes self-made score of 10 out of 10, which we looked up in Forbes.

Starting point is 00:02:54 We actually looked at the footnotes. And that means you grew up poor and overcame significant obstacles to build your fortune completely on your own. There are very, very few people who have the score of 10 out of 10. Two of them are Oprah, George Soros, and Fernando. All right. Forbes reports that you have a net worth of $2.8 billion. And we're going, one of these.

Starting point is 00:03:22 Let's talk about love. Let's talk about love. Now he wants to talk about love. Now he wants to talk about love. So can you please introduce yourself to the audience in your own words? Well, I did grow up in pretty complex circumstances. I grew up along the South Texas, Northern Mexico border. So I do think that I am self-made, but I don't sort of begrudge the circumstance.

Starting point is 00:03:49 I think they were sort of a real advantage. And I think early adversity is probably a huge advantage. I love that. Can you talk a little bit more about this view? It sounds like it's a view that's turned into a value that's really guided you to make the decisions that you've made in your personal life and your business. Overall, my view is that we live in a country where there are no constraints to what you can achieve. It's a simple idea. Most of the constraints that people put on themselves are self-made.

Starting point is 00:04:23 This country has a massive economy, a $30 trillion GDP economy. And so there are places, pockets everywhere where wealth can be created. And so if you want to do that, and that's a, you know, a value or something that you are interested in, there are an infinite, almost infinite number of places to generate wealth. But you have to have the stomach for it. You have to believe in your ability to do that. And then you also have to have the ability to provide value for others. So if you do something, kind of the way you two do this,

Starting point is 00:05:00 you're disseminating information to young. men and women about pursuing business, a career, all of these things, they're massively important to people's understanding of how to pursue their goals. And so if you provide that value, you get rewarded. If what you do doesn't provide value to others in society, then you don't get rewarded. It's sort of a very, very fair system, in my opinion. And I think that that underpins my pursuit of business creation is that if we can build businesses with people with stamina that have the ability to deal with adversity and that we can provide a value to society, then we'll be rewarded for it. And we've done that, you know, a few times.

Starting point is 00:05:44 Fernando for senator, for president. No, no, no, no, no. The opposite. We need, we, no, what we need to do is continue doing what we're doing. And the, the political thing is way too complex. That's one thing that people, business people have not been able to solve. It's not a deal with the political chaos of the last few years. Fair. Cherie for president? Yeah, Sheree for president.

Starting point is 00:06:12 Or at least a governor. Yeah. Why stop there? Fernando, I'd love to go back to the beginning, some of your early stories. Can you talk a little bit more about your earliest money memory? Money and wealth was never sort of important for material things. It was important because it provided safety to my family. And so I had early days. My father passed away when I was about 12 years old and so the family, I was the only American citizen in the family. I could speak English.

Starting point is 00:06:51 I had these advantages. I had these things, these tools that the rest of my family didn't have. Because you were the youngest of six. Because I was the youngest of six, and then the others were, you know, 10 to 16 years older than I was. And so I had this sort of golden ticket that was given to me, right, to be an American citizen. And so I could take the skills that I had and the ability to be in the United States and create, you know, income. And that was important. And so I had to kind of maximize that. So, you know, when I was about 14 years old, I, I was a translator. So there were American real estate developers that wanted to build manufacturing plants in Mexico,

Starting point is 00:07:34 and they needed help in translation services, in navigating the environment. And I was a kid, but I could help them with that. In one instance, the very first time that I made money, I just got paid fees for translation services, and I was, you know, a few hundred bucks. But then I kind of realized that what I was doing was more than translation.

Starting point is 00:07:54 I was actually giving developers, the ability to execute their business plan. And so I thought about it and I said, well, I really ought to get more. I did. I mean, maybe it was selfish or maybe it was just I was trying to take care of my family. You were like, my value is higher than this hourly fee. Yeah, my value is higher. And there was a very big moment, actually.

Starting point is 00:08:18 My grandmother, who was an extraordinarily tough and resilient woman, she had widowed with seven children at the age of 29. Wow. And she was a tough lady in that part of the world for her to run a farm, a ranch. As a woman with seven children, you had to be extremely tough. And she was. She was very well known as a resilient and tough lady who happened. My grandmother happened to be friends with a union leader in our town.

Starting point is 00:08:54 and the developer that was building a facility, a manufacturing plant, he needed permits, like job permits, and you had to get those job permits from the union. And so I asked my grandma, I said, Grandma, you're friends with this union leader, right? And she said, oh, yeah, that man has been in love with me since I was 15 years old. And so I said, well, can you set up an appointment for me? So, of course. So I showed up at this union leader's office, and it was like out of a Godfather movie. I mean, dark room.

Starting point is 00:09:32 He was fidgeting with a gun. I mean, it was, it was, and I was, you know, 14 or 15 years old. Their favorite quote was that you come to me. The day and my daughter is a wedding. Pretty much. We love that. We say it all the time. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:09:46 And so, so I walk in. He asked me, my grandmother's name was Amparo, and he says, you're Amparo's grandson, right? And I said, yes. He says, she called me, I know what you want. I know what you need. And I'll give it to you. And I said, oh, well, thank you. And he said, yeah, I'll do it because I've been in love with your grandmother since I was 15.

Starting point is 00:10:11 And so he says that. And so, you know, he writes down in a little napkin that this should be approved. And then I go to another guy. and then that person was his underling and facilitator. And so we had an approval for jobs permits. And I went to the developer and I said, hey, you know, you've been working on getting these job permits for about a year. What would you pay to have access to these job permits?

Starting point is 00:10:40 And he said, well, you know, if we could partner with this person with them or, you know, pay X amount, we would do it to get the building. permits. And I said, well, you know, I actually have the permits in my position, and I, I, I'll take that offer. I'll take 5% equity in, in the building. And, uh, and he, you know, he agreed. We signed it. And we did that, you know, five, four or five more times. And, and that was the first time I ever owned anything. I was about 15 years old. And, and these buildings were not, you know, they were pretty substantial facilities. Um, they had leverage, they had financing and everything. So, uh, but I learned it. And then I worked for that person for the next four or five years. And I was a project manager and I was

Starting point is 00:11:22 running real estate development deals from his office. And so I was running them effectively myself as the coordinator and orchestra conductor of engineers and architects and construction companies. And that's why I learned the craft as a kid. But I was making good money and that was important. But it was important because I could support my mom and the family. And that was sort of the seminal moment that, you know, that made me want to generate wealth as a, as a protective measure, not so much for, you know, buying things or whatever. It was really a sort of a protective, protecting the family. That was my, 100% of my goal was to protect the family. And Leon Capital was born. Yeah. Technically. On a napkin. Well, technically, you know,

Starting point is 00:12:09 Leon Khabber wasn't signed into existence until like 2004. Yeah, 2004. Germination. Yeah, you're right. The ideological germination was there. Because you're right. What happened was I later, when I was working at Goldman Sachs, you know, I said, you know, I want to go back to Texas and do what I was doing before.

Starting point is 00:12:33 Like I was good at that. I got to get back. And so, yes, you're right, that it was always pulling me to come back to Texas. Texas after being on at Goldman. And I, you know, the idea was had been built or was inside of me and I just needed to get back to it. So you're right that that was the origin of who I was. I mean, and that's something you've talked about before. You said company ownership is the most hidden secret in American capitalism.

Starting point is 00:13:02 What I mean by that is that I think, you know, you can own a lot of things. You can own ideas. You can own your time. But the concept of an asset, you're never too young to own an asset, right? And so I have a nephew who I told recently, he said, Uncle Fernando, like, how do I start to create wealth? And I said, hey, you know, you're renting an apartment. Go, go find a way to buy a townhome, a duplex, and lease the second half of it and use that to pay off the mortgage for the two-sense. sites and start with that. Own an asset, you know, get financing, figure out how to own an asset.

Starting point is 00:13:43 And so I do think that asset ownership, you know, that asset, he will pay it off over, you know, a 15-year loan amortization, and he'll own an asset 15 years from now. But he's 21. And so he'll be 36 and he'll own an asset and he'll say, wow, like I built something, I own something. And it was painful. Maybe he's got to live, you know, within his means, save more. Maybe he can't go to the restaurants and make sacrifices, but when he's older, he'll be great, he'll be glad that he paid off an asset. And so I think asset ownership, company ownership is, is the way that you build wealth. And I don't, I think it's a simple statement, but it's hard to do. And you just got to find the openings to figure out how,

Starting point is 00:14:30 how to get it for yourself. Nobody's going to, you know, I can't give you like the story of what it's going to be for for anybody except for me, right? But for others, they got to find their own entry point and figure out a way to get a piece by a stock, buy a bond, buy a house, by a duplex, buy something, and then over time make it grow. So early on in your career, you invested in Chick-fil-A when the big guys thought... We've done our research. Yeah, we've done a research. Didn't think about that one for a while, did you? No. When the big guys thought it was beneath them.

Starting point is 00:15:10 What did you understand that other people didn't see? And what's an industry you're investing in now that others still overlook or possibly underestimate? Oh, interesting. Okay, so first of all, the Chick-fil-A trade was not in the company itself. That's a private company. It's owned by a family. As much as any of us would want to invest in Chick-fil-A, you can't. It's owned a multi-generational trust.

Starting point is 00:15:34 So that's not going anywhere. But what I did was I said, I think this concept is massive and people love it and they have this connection to it. You know, a large percentage of people surveyed they go to Chick-fil-A when you ask them if it's fast food will tell you it's not. So it tells you, you know, the service, everything was built with intentionality. And I wanted to participate in that business plan, but I couldn't. So the way, I couldn't invest in the company directly. So what I decided to do was I had a piece of land, the very first building that I built for Chick-fil-A, I owned a piece of land in San Angelo, Texas, small little town.

Starting point is 00:16:15 I had bought some land from a bank that had default, a borrower had defaulted on a piece of land, and I owned these sites all over the state of Texas, and Chick-fil-A really wanted that site. And I said, well, I will, I'll build it for you. I said, no, and we, you know, we traded hard for a while, and they've, finally agreed and we built a building that they leased. And my philosophy of that was to say, well, if I can't invest in the company, but let's say that Chick-fil-A was selling two million dollars of product, of chicken there, and I was renting the building for $200,000 to them per year. That means that for every 10 pieces of chicken that they sold, one of them was being sold on my

Starting point is 00:17:01 behalf because I owned $200,000 of rent as a royalty on a top $2 million sales figure. So I effectively own one-tenth of their total revenue production at that site. And that was my way to be in business with Chick-fil-A. And I did that with Starbucks, and I did that with many companies around the country. 7-Eleven. I did, that was my philosophy about it, was if I could own the real estate, whoever leased it from me was effectively my partner on some portion that came to me through rent. and that was just a philosophical view of it.

Starting point is 00:17:34 So Chick-fil-A, you know, and many of those companies' early days, you know, it was a small deal, you know, giant real estate companies didn't want to go mess with it. They're like, oh, that's beneath me, but I was like, I'll do it. And I'll do whatever it takes. So we did a lot of it. And they were fantastic partners. And many of those businesses like Raisin-Kane, 7-Eleven, Chase Bank, CBS, all of these businesses. I built buildings for them and we had great partnership with them.

Starting point is 00:18:04 On things that I see kind of that others aren't particularly paying attention to, so out of the real estate business about nine years ago, I co-founded a business called CREXE, which today is based here in Los Angeles, and today is the second largest purveyor of commercial real estate data in the country. And so early days, nine years ago, you know, somebody said, hey, do you want to own this office building? And do you want, you know, they offered it to me to buy it. And I got to thinking, like, what is the opposite of an office building? And I didn't like the

Starting point is 00:18:41 office building business. I never did any deals in it because I thought the, the capax is too high. I thought tenants would roll over too much. So I found the cash flows unpredictable. I didn't like it. But I liked, but I said, I want to find the opposite of it. So it was kind of a, you know, sort of a mental game with myself and myself and a co-founder and a couple other people, we thought about data as the best commodity to try to own in commercial real estate. And today we have about 5 million people on the site. We have hundreds of thousands of subscribers. And then we have a listing service where commercial real estate is listed, you know, a la Zillow. And then also we harness data, We synthesize it, and then we sell it as lease comps, as sales comps, and information that is really, really important to commercial real estate professionals in order to make decisions about selling a property, buying a property, leasing a property, financing a property, things like that.

Starting point is 00:19:43 So we sell, you know, information and data to appraisal districts and, you know, city governments, brokerage, real estate brokerage companies, things like, you know, groups like that all over the country, and it's become a huge company. with about 600 employees, roughly, based here in the L.A. area. And it's a fantastic business, but we saw it way earlier than many others. And it took a lot of, you know, a lot of capital to stand it up and to fight through the competitive landscape. And there were massive semi-monopolisly competitors that were tough to engage and fight through. And still takes a lot of stamina to fight through that. So, yeah, that's one of the things that we saw and that I think we, you know, we help build and it's a massive business. And I'm really proud of the work we've done there.

Starting point is 00:20:38 I think that's so cool because I think it's such a good example of your business intuition because you came from the world of real estate. Like that's what you knew, like hard capital assets, all the stuff. But you were like, what is a business that I want to get into that I know enough about that I have a competitive edge? And so you're like, data, I want to get into that business. And they're like, how can I do it through real estate? I think that is so, there's like, there's definitely a lesson there. Because I think a lot of people are trying to transition what they do. And they're like, how can I possibly, you know, get into, or like even myself when I worked,

Starting point is 00:21:13 I started off working at Goldman and I thought I was going to work and finance my whole life. And then after two years, I was like, yeah. Same. Yeah. And I was like, I want to work in consumer tech. How do I work in consumer tech? It's like you find the entry point. The entry point, yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:31 But I will say that I think part of the lesson, too, for me at least, was real estate was comfortable, but technology and engineering and software development was not. I was really, like I had a discomfort and a little bit of a fear. I can talk about it now. In the moment, I probably didn't internalize the fear that I really had. And so I think to me the lesson in many respects is everybody has fear. We all have fear about something, right? Something that we don't understand or don't know. And so what do you do with it?

Starting point is 00:22:08 Do you, I think about it and I say, okay, well, let me understand my fear. Let me then compartmentalize it and then leverage it so I can adapt around it. But you got to leverage it. If you are afraid to leverage that fear, then you don't go anywhere. I think you get stuck. And so to me, it was always about putting it in a box and saying, let's go, right? Let's move against that thing and lean into the whatever's causing you a discomfort. But you've got to recognize it, be a little bit self-aware and fight through it.

Starting point is 00:22:37 And I don't, I think a lot of people don't want to do that. But you should want to do it. That's how you adapt and evolve and progress in your life journey. Is leveraging it almost like using that fear as a motivation? or how do you like leverage it practically? I mean, yes. I think, yeah, I think leveraging it as motivation, but I think also there's like a,

Starting point is 00:23:01 like a, almost like a resentment or an anger that you have against a certain weakness. It's like, you know what? I know it's there and screw it. I'm going to go and fight it directly, like head on. And who does that? Like, it's tough to do. And, yeah, so, so yes, I think it's, it's leveraging it. It's modifying it.

Starting point is 00:23:22 but it's also having a certain resentment that fuels you. So do you want it or not? And I think the people that succeed are willing to go right at it and fight it with a little bit of anger or resentment or whatever you want to call it. But it's not a it's not a soft feeling. It is an aggressive feeling, I think. That's the difference. I would say embrace it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:53 Interesting. I'm having so many associations right now. Like I feel like there needs to be like a superhero track theme song like going on in the background as you're saying this because it kind of reminds me of like Batman or like Batman begins or like the dark night or something. Or like I see Fernando. I see it in you in the way that you're talking about it. It's really powerful.

Starting point is 00:24:14 As you're just saying it, I'm like, you know, absorbing everything. But also kind of just like witnessing kind of how you work and how you're. brain works and kind of some, I'm just, it's really admirable that I'm just like kind of seeing the power right now. And it feels like the dark night when he's like, you know, you know, training. Training. Yeah. It's kind of, it's kind of, it's kind of amazing. You know, your mind needs to train, right? Like, yeah, like if you've got a soft spot in your body and you physically train for it, it's no different with the brain. Yeah. The brain says, oh, no, not there. No, that's where you go. And that's not a natural state. It's not a comfortable thing. comfortable, you're not doing it right. Like, it's got to be, it's got to be you, like,

Starting point is 00:24:56 suffering through it. I do, I do believe that. And I think that's really hard to do on a self-awareness basis. It's not, it doesn't come naturally. You've got to, got to train for it. Yeah. A question for you, maybe, I don't know if this will kind of push you to think a little bit more about the opposite side of that. It's like, I talk to myself with a lot of harshness in a good way, though. Like, I push myself and I'm like, you can do, like, do it. You like go for it. Is there a softness? I wonder. Is there a voice in your head that also embraces like the softer, kinder side of motivation? I think so because it depends on why are you doing it. Like why are you pursuing that? Is it all about you? It was never about me in the things I tried to

Starting point is 00:25:44 accomplish. It was about our family. And and so there were, you know, five siblings. And now I have, you know, for children. These things matter in the context of, of our family. And this is a philosophy of survival, of pursuit, of improvement. And so I think, yeah, if you, it depends on who you're doing it for, right? If you, you know, I bet in your relationship between you two, I bet that there is a feeling of accountability of not wanting to let each other down, of wanting to pursue together in that journey. So it's not about entirely about you. It's about both of you and about your family and

Starting point is 00:26:26 you know, a certain gratitude that you have for your parents in the effort they put to send you to, you know, good schools and to and to provide an environment. Like you are a function of those feelings, right? You can't, you can't move those. So I do think that having a cause for others and for yourself and for a, you know, a company is massively inspiring. And I look at our companies and I bet a, I don't know how to quantify this, but a substantial part of my motivation to build a business is that the people that are there, I want them to have good lives. I want to be supportive of their professional development. Like, I don't want them. I mean, I feel like I'm obligated and I am accountable and so we need to go row in that direction and make that company,

Starting point is 00:27:20 that business, our initiative work. And so I don't know that, I think it depends on who, the softer side to your, on your question is, is about the people around you. Who are you doing it for and why? If it's, I don't, I suspect that if you're entirely self-centered, you probably don't have the leadership and the charisma to motivate others to come with you in building something. if you're just self-absorbed and you don't have this softer side to ask others to come with you, how do you scale? You have to be, you have to be, I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of people that control great technologies that can just be total jerks and don't care about anybody but themselves because our technology

Starting point is 00:27:57 is great. But I think for the most part, for mere mortals like us, I think your ability to inspire and motivate others is what gives you operating leverage and allows you to go forward. So I do think there is definitely a softer site. I think it's very cool. Like listening to you speak, it makes a lot of sense in understanding that your original motivation was to provide for your family. And now it almost sounds like you view your company as like your broader family now. And so it's just like scaling up that same, that same like desire from a young age. And now you're just, doing it on a much bigger scale. Yeah, I think so. I think there's a lot of people that have worked

Starting point is 00:28:41 with me for 15 or 20 years that are extraordinarily important in my life. And those people, you know, I know their families and I know what they've done to sacrifice time and effort and, you know, the toughness that they've exemplified to build a business. And how could you not be reciprocal? So you, yeah, so I think every business that we build, there are men and women that have sacrificed time and and and and their you know other things in their life in order to build those businesses so you have to be I think I think it's it's a right thing to to be reciprocal in in having their back yeah Fernando we're going to go through some more tactics and advice so if you were starting from zero today what is the first real move that you'd make to build wealth

Starting point is 00:29:32 The truth is that when you don't have anything, what you really, if you don't have capital or resources, right, like you have to figure out how to get some. I know that sounds kind of basic, but it's true. Can you find maneuvers and tactics for yourself that aren't about capital? Because if you say, well, I don't have capital. I don't know how to get it. And then, so I can't do anything. Well, then you're stuck. So it's, I don't have capital, but I'm going to find.

Starting point is 00:30:02 find a way creatively to accomplish something through an idea, a tactic, some kind of insight, persuasion, charisma, whatever, right? Like salesmanship, whatever it takes, and you're going to find a way to maneuver around the opportunity and find value and extract it. That is something that anybody can do. There are no handbooks for it. There are no manuals for it, but you've got to develop it for yourself. And then it'll manifest itself as value creation that you are.

Starting point is 00:30:32 are able to at some points extract. And so, for instance, when I, you know, when I first started my career in Dallas building subdivisions, the first ones was a piece of land, and I didn't have the ability to buy that piece of land and build a subdivision. So I had to go and talk to a landowner and say, hey, I have this idea for building this land into a subdivision, and I'm going to sell these lots to home builders, and I'm going to you know, these are my, this is my numbers, my, my expectations. Would you like to be a partner in this?

Starting point is 00:31:11 And they would contribute it into a partnership. Or sometimes I would have an option to buy the land and then go get entitlements or zoning changes from the city. And I could go do that through persuasion. I could convince the city to let me, you know, change it from an agricultural use to a residential use. And then that made the value of the land more valuable. And therefore, I could get financing. and limit the amount of capital that I needed. But I think that early days, my instincts were about how do I build value.

Starting point is 00:31:43 Okay, so this piece of land, I'm going to option it, and if I change the zoning, it's more valuable. The option contract was a piece of paper. And then I had to convince engineers to do the work without me paying them. They're like, but you're 24. Why am I listening to you? I'm like, come on, man. Let's do this together.

Starting point is 00:31:59 And then it's like, I'll take you hunting or whatever. whatever. I did. I took these guys hunting when they did some work for me and they made good money. I ultimately, I paid them because I was able to execute on this on this project. But I don't know. Like that that isn't a economic thing. It's not a capital constraint. It was just like getting people to agree with you and follow you. And so I think oftentimes it's about a little bit of tactical creativity and and finding people that want to advocate for you. That person, by the way, that put that land into a partnership with me. His name is Harold Pullman. And he was like in his early 80s. And he actually told me, he said, that piece of land can't be developed. I started,

Starting point is 00:32:48 he had come back from World War II and had built homes for GIs. And this was a little extra piece of land that he said was unbuildable. And I said, What do you have to lose then? If it's not buildable, let me give it a shot. Yeah. And he said, you'll never be able to do it. And I went and I convinced the Army Corps of Engineers and the city. And we designed around some of the problems.

Starting point is 00:33:10 And it took me a year. And all of it came together. And he was shocked. He's like, you know, I tried doing that for 40 years and I couldn't do it. But you did. And so kudos to you. And so there are things that you can do with work and sweat equity that don't require having, you know, capital day one. So I would say focus on creativity, persuasion, salesmanship, building something out of

Starting point is 00:33:33 nothing is damn hard, but everybody who has built something out of nothing has done it. So give it your shot. It actually listening to your story reminds me of kind of like our beginning for Tiger Sisters because when we first conceptualized Tiger Sisters, we were like, actually we want to build Tiger Sisters as a reality TV show. And like we want to bring people along and like have them like learn these business lessons through this reality TV show where we would, you know, work with all these different startups or different companies. And then as we made kind of like our pitch and we started like brains different people. First of all, we were like, oh, wow, Hollywood is like five different strikes going on. Not a good time.

Starting point is 00:34:15 Not actually the worst time in history. Yeah. The real reality TV to. Yeah. Yeah. to life and then the second thing was we were like oh you know what this actually is going to create it requires a lot of capital and also a lot of sort of like ingrained systems and relationships are required to to bring something to life in the Hollywood system in the traditional in the traditional

Starting point is 00:34:37 highway yeah and so we're like okay what can we do that we actually build it on our own terms and we can still achieve the goals that we want which is bringing sort of like education to people in a fun, digestible way. And we were like, let's do a podcast because the barriers to entry are pretty much nothing, almost nothing. And we started out in our home office, actually the kitchen table. Literally in our kitchen, our dining room table, which is very small with these crappy microphones. With a camera that was $400.

Starting point is 00:35:10 Like, do not watch our earlier episodes because they are not well produced the way that they are now here. The information is good. Yeah, the information is good. It's great. We're iterating on it constantly, but if there are obstacles, it's to your story and your points. Like, how do you go around it, over it, under it? But like, don't let something like that stop you. We heard a lot of nose in the beginning.

Starting point is 00:35:31 Yeah. We mourned our reality TV show concept for about, like, three days and we're like, we need to pivot. What do we do to actually bring this to the life the way that we want to? Yeah. But it's that concept of, like, taking what you know and, like, creating some sort of value without how to, having the capital behind it. Like you don't need to have capital in order to begin. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:53 No, I totally agree. I mean, I think there are countless examples of that kind of situation. I think there is a little bit of like self-awareness too of just saying, hey, like, for instance, the brand like Tiger Sisters, the concept, right? Like this was like, hey, we know who we are. Yeah. And we think this will resonate with the public. And then you're authentic, right?

Starting point is 00:36:15 And then fundamentally, that's what people are responding to. Just like Mr. Pullman was responding to my authenticity, you know, your viewers are responding to saying, hey, these two women are, you know, strong and smart, and they're building a set of ideas that we can rally behind and understand and the content is valuable to me. So I think, ultimately, by the way, that last part, it's valuable to me.

Starting point is 00:36:43 Yeah. It has to be there. Yeah. You can have all the dreams, but if it's, if your viewers find it valuable, then you have something that's important. Ultimately, I built homes in that subdivision that were valuable to those people that live there. And they went and built a family there. They built home equity. They built net worth through home ownership. And that was valuable to those groups of people and to society. So ultimately,

Starting point is 00:37:09 that last part has to be there. Otherwise, you just, you can't fake it. Right. That has to, that has to permeate through your work. Yeah, I really love that. It's like so fundamental, but just the idea of like build something of value. Like so many people start like startup founders, I think, like forget about that now. They're like, let me just build something.

Starting point is 00:37:30 Like I want to do something in AI. I want to build something AI, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, but is it valuable to people? Are you building something of value? Or if, or for instance, the other thing that is done a lot, not just in venture, but it's what valuation can I get? And then that is just a bunch of group think where somebody says, I think is very valuable and they're all in the same little bubble.

Starting point is 00:37:51 And then when it goes out to people that are going to consume that good or service, it turns out that people don't value it. The only people that valued it were the ones, you know, giving it a valuation of X or Y. And then the consumers of that good or service said, you know what? I kind of, it doesn't really give me anything. And so, and then that valuation bubble bursts. And it happens all the time, too. So fundamentally, a group of people deriving value of time or anything through that good or service is the only way you get rewarded in capitalism. It's fair.

Starting point is 00:38:26 It's fair. It's very, very fair. I've always thought capitalism is this, you know, interesting, this philosophy that fundamentally has fairness at its value. And not everybody agrees with me on that, I think, but I do think that if you give people, you may not like the person that, created that technology or that idea, but why do people consume it? Because they derive value from it. So it has to permeate that. Otherwise, things break down, often very quickly, too. It's kind of a hot take. Capitalism is fair. It's fair. Yeah. Should we wrap up with one last? When are we talking about love?

Starting point is 00:39:06 Do you have some advice for us? You have some advice. Well, actually, do you want to talk about love? I don't know. I don't know. I think Fernando wants to set us up. Really? I mean, I will try. I will work really, really hard on, I guess, let me ask you guys a question about love. Okay.

Starting point is 00:39:28 How do very driven, highly intelligent women, how do you find the way to sort of properly interact with members of the opposite? sex. How do you do that when you're, when you're so driven? Does it make it difficult to date? You know, someone asked me this exact question yesterday, too. Really? Yeah, over Instagram. There's a lot of noise and it's actually interesting. You know what? Going back to your earlier point about credentials blinding you. I think that's where it can be tough as dating as like a very ambitious women. So women, we like, you know, going to business school and like, this is it. And I'm going to find, you know, my partner for life, you know, in my class, all this stuff. But I think also dating at that level, I want to make sure the person that I'm dating is supportive of my dreams, goals, and ambitions.

Starting point is 00:40:26 I think that can be tough when I have a lot of them. We have a lot of them. And someone who's not afraid of that, who will support me along the way. And also, I think there's a lot of noise because at that level, I think the people that we're dating are also very successful. and it's a balance. And so they have dreams too. And so making it all complimentary is not an easy Rubik's cube. And making sure that, you know, there's no ego when it comes to love.

Starting point is 00:40:54 That part, I think, is really hard and seeing deeply into their heart. Ooh. If you can. You know what's interesting is when I first, so I sold a bunch of assets in like 2007. And then, you know, when 2008... Nicely done. Well, it was a little bit lucky. But in 2008, you know, I got back into it.

Starting point is 00:41:19 And the first few deals that I did, I struggled. And I had a lot of problems. And I was really, really down. And I almost gave up. And my wife, we were, like, very recently married. She said, she's like, you know, shake it off. Get back up and go find your place. And I was like, no.

Starting point is 00:41:40 you know, I'm just going to go, I'm going to get a job somewhere and not be an entrepreneur anymore. And she said, look, if you do that, I don't think this is going to, we're going to do, we're going to last. And I said, why? She said, well, you're going to drive me crazy because you have to be an entrepreneur. You're never, you're never going to be like, you know, inside an organization and like be a good employee. You're going to be a pain in my ass. So please go out there and go build a piece of real estate or go do something, but go, go, go, uh, get back up and do it. And, and, and she was doing it a little bit to like, you know,

Starting point is 00:42:19 protect her own self from me being, you know, around the house too much. Um, but it was interesting that she knew me, um, you know, and, and was willing, like, she actually believed in me, but she also was pushing me harder than I was pushing myself, which didn't happen a lot. But in a moment of vulnerability when I was down and like, psychologically I was, uh, vulnerable, she was like, no. We're doing this. Get back up.

Starting point is 00:42:42 And she was like, you know, in your corner in a boxing match. And you're kind of getting, you know, punched around. And she's like, no, get back in there and go fight. And so I do think that that in a relationship, you have to have a person that sees you, even in your most vulnerable state and compels you to keep going. She knew you deeply. And we had only been dating for a couple of years before we got married. And so, yeah, she did kind of know my essence quickly.

Starting point is 00:43:08 I think it's also, it's very funny you ask that question because I was telling you earlier I was at a bachelorette this weekend and it was 10 HBS girls and we actually were talking about this. We were doing a little bit of like, not accounting, but we were like talking through all of our friends. We're like actually a good number of our friends are the breadwinners within their family unit. And it's a lot of people are like, you know, I didn't think it was going to turn out this way. And it's not like my husband is not, you know, or my partner is not including. incredibly talented or like successful at Donorite, but they're the breadwinners and they are receiving a lot of support from their partners and one of my girlfriends was like, you know, I thought it was, she's like, I always thought it was so important to have a partner who was, you know, the same sort of credentials like Ivy League undergrad, you know, MBA, like all this stuff and she's like,

Starting point is 00:44:04 I actually realized that that wasn't what was most important to me. It was like having someone who loves me and understands me deeply and we support each other. And so I think that's, I don't know. Yeah, that's massive. I mean, I think that's a big chunk of it. I think, you know, there's, in my case in particular, my wife really was able to interact with my family too. And that was super important for me because they were so foundational as a part of my life. And so that was an important thing.

Starting point is 00:44:36 And she took it on as a as part of her identity. And that was, you know, super important to me. So yeah, I mean, I think, I think the supportive element has to be there. You cannot both, you know, move forward without a supportive element. Money, power, and love. Yeah, there we go. Hit them all. The trifecta.

Starting point is 00:44:58 Thank you for bringing us back to, you know, we almost forgot for a second. Thank you for bringing us back to love. Yeah. I never thought I'd be talked to. about love. I've never gone down this rapid hole, but, but it's good. It's a little cathartic. Yeah. And it's also mixing the hard with the soft as a holistic person. It's the spice of life. It is. The spice of life. The juice of life. Okay, so we have a section called rapid fire where we're going to hear your hottest takes if things are overrated or underrated. And yeah,

Starting point is 00:45:31 this is going to be super fast and really fun. So those are the two answers. Overrated or underrated? Well, they kind of depend for each one, but it's the concept. But yeah, you can start, yeah, you can kind of start with that and then explain. Okay, let's give a shot. Yeah, okay. I like this. Yeah. Okay, first one, Fernando.

Starting point is 00:45:50 Okay, Mark Cuban, business genius or overrated TV billionaire. Oh, man. Okay, look, let's talk about the facts. Yeah. Broadcast.com was sold to Yahoo. and Yahoo wrote down the value of Broadcast.com to zero within about a year or a year and a half. So that wasn't a good one. You know, the idea of, I don't know, I don't know what kind of investments are done on truck tank,

Starting point is 00:46:19 but it seems to me that they're mainly consumer products and not extremely scalable businesses. And so maybe I would take the under on that. I like that. I like that. Okay. So Harvard, you went to Harvard for undergrad. Is it responsible for success or just a nice flex? Are elite schools stepping stones or status signals? Oh, yeah, this one's going to be a little controversial. But I actually think that the idea of a flex and a name that comes with your background may often blind you to blind spots that are, that are painful lessons later.

Starting point is 00:47:06 So you have to be really careful with letting that take up too much of your identity. And so you got to manage it. I don't think, I think, you know, some harm can be done from embracing brand identities like that. Brands are information shortcuts, right? And Harvard is an information shortcut just like any other. It's like Apple and every brand out there. So do you, do you, you know, fall into it? Do you embrace it fully?

Starting point is 00:47:33 And then what kind of implications does that have for your scrappiness and your resolve and going forward? Does it slow you down a little bit? I love that phrase. It's information shortcut because we actually do use it that way. We've talked about this a lot where sometimes we feel like it's very cringe that we're always like, oh, Harvard and Stanford, like, blah, blah, blah. And sometimes we're like, oh, do we over rely on that? But it's an information shortcut. It's basically just a way for us to be like, hey, like, we're not just talking out of our asses.

Starting point is 00:48:03 were actually legitimate and this is why you should, you know, tune into what we have to say. You know, one of the reasons. My daughter asked me, like, is it important, dad, to get into a good school? And I said, look, it's important in so much as it shows the discipline of you trying to achieve something and getting it done. So I think that's important. And so you don't want to be passive and you want to pursue your dreams. And if some of that is a great university, then go for it.

Starting point is 00:48:28 No, no judgment. But then, you know, once you're out there fighting. like did Mr. Pullman really care about my Harvard degree? Probably not. Like he was like, hey, can you get it done or not? And so ultimately it's got to be, you got to execute. And so, you know, if that's a crutch, does it slow you down? That's just, it's a question. And, and I pose it for everybody to make. For reflection, for deep. Yeah. Crypto. Is it a legitimate long-term play or glorified casino? Oh, man, you got me. That's a so fun.

Starting point is 00:49:03 That's a tough one. You've been like hacking my emails or something. Okay, so let's see. Let's see. Number one is I used to see in other countries, and I grew up straddling two different countries. And so in Mexico, you would see currency devaluations every time a president left.

Starting point is 00:49:25 So you would see like the treasury rated reserves, decrease and therefore the currency of the country suffer in value. Crypto is a great way to store wealth against that kind of thing. So in the United States, not so much because the dollars are a reserve currency, but if you live in Angola, if you live in certain African countries, in certain parts of Latin America where you have hyperinflation and dysfunctional governments, would you want to have crypto? And I think I would lean towards yes.

Starting point is 00:49:55 I believe in crypto there is a lot of regulatory framework that is immature and needs to be built. I think there are, for obvious reasons, elements of crypto that are shady and difficult to navigate. And so I think you've got to be careful. I've invested in crypto and I did very well, but I would say that there was very little fundamentals around it. I think, you know, I got lucky and I took my wins and ran with it. But I don't, I don't, I wouldn't know how to invest in it at a fundamental level. I think it would, it would be difficult for me to do that. I wouldn't go as far as what, you know, Charlie Munger set, which was that it was, you know, dog shit.

Starting point is 00:50:41 But it, but it, but it, you know, but I think there is a use for it in certain, you know, context. But I think you have to tread very, very lightly on crypto. Okay. So crypto, better than. then dog shit. According to Bernan. You heard it here first. Now that's what Munger said.

Starting point is 00:50:57 I think I wouldn't go all the way over there. We didn't put that as a headline. But yeah, those guys were old school or old school. But I think there is a place for it in some context, I think. If you went to, I mean, if you see the devaluations that happen in some countries, there are people in Nigeria. I think I have a friend that runs a crypto exchange company and he says many of the customers are Latin America, Africa, Africa.

Starting point is 00:51:23 Asia. So you find those people have, you know, derive value from buying those stores of wealth. And so if they're deriving value, then who are we to say that, that, that, that, that, there's something wrong with it. So I wouldn't go as far as Charlie did. That's a very practical. It's very holistic answer. Very, like, international. Capitalism, very international. Very, yeah, I could imagine it's, it'd be really useful for, like, remittances, too, now that I think about it. Yeah. Yeah, I think it has been, been used in remittances. good and bad, right? That's the catch. And so like in many topics like this, it's not black or white and it is a whole bunch of gray in crypto. And we'll see. We'll see how it evolves for sure.

Starting point is 00:52:06 It's not going anywhere. I don't think, I think if you thought, if you thought crypto was dead, you know, two or three years ago, whenever we had that bubble burst, I don't think that that's the case right now. Mm-hmm. Fernando, thank you so much for being here with us and giving us the real talk on money, power, and love. And we always say we want to be the Internet's big sisters and career mentors and that we wish we had. And that's really what we got with you today. So thank you for being here and for being, you know, the Internet big brother, like kind of family that we've built together with Tiger Sisters.

Starting point is 00:52:41 I love it. I love it. I'm happy to, I'm happy to have been a guest because I think you guys are. disseminating and proselytizing great ideas that people can benefit from. So if you got value from this conversation, if it made you laugh or kind of like think deeply or question what you've been taught, take a second to follow, like, and subscribe. And please rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And also send this to a friend who would enjoy it.

Starting point is 00:53:09 We'll see you next time on Tiger Sisters. Bye. Bye.

Tiger Sisters - The Self-Made Billionaire Playbook: No Trust Fund. No Connections. Just Guts.

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