Tiger Sisters - The trap high achievers fall into. What I wish I knew at 35.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, my name is John Wu. I'm president of Ava Lab, the team behind the blockchain Avalanche. And I've been in tech either as an investor or an operator in my entire career. First, I started out as a tech investor with firms like Tiger, Kingdom, and then running my own firm. And then I became an operator in the blockchain crypto space. I'm 35 now. What advice would you give to your 35-year-old self? I would tell myself to just relax because it's all going to work out. Actually, I was with one of my B-school classmates and we said that to each other. And then we looked at each other and said there's no way you would have said that to yourself back then and you sound very old

Starting point is 00:00:34 for saying that now even now 20 plus years after business school I am still not getting to the points that I want to get the bars keep moving forward what was your first job first real job but my first job job I was just like a full lifeguard so you're saving live I actually did save one's life if there's any one takeaway I think if you do something you might as well do it well otherwise don't do it you know what It's just as much about how resilient you are as much as how successful you are. I remember my first failure that I was able to reflect on. What is it like to work at iconic hedge funds? Start your own hedge fund.

Starting point is 00:01:29 Retire. Then come out of retirement and completely work in a new field, industry, and role different from what you did before. In this episode, we talked to John Wu, who does just that. I'm Jean and I'm Cherie and we're the Tiger Sisters I just want to share a fun fact with you which is that John actually used to be the boss of Imron Khan Imron who you guys might have seen in an earlier episode used to be my boss when he was the chief strategy officer at Snapchat so I just think that that's wild because you're the grand employee of John Wu if that's kind of how it works that's really funny yeah But I just think, like, you guys might not get that because I feel like John actually looks very young. But I just want to set that up because he has so much wisdom. He has this incredible career trajectory, which we'll get into in the takeaways because he like doesn't even really talk about it at all.

Starting point is 00:02:27 So in the interviews. Yeah, he's so humble. He doesn't, yeah, he doesn't big himself up at all. So we kind of have to do it for him after the fact. Yeah. But yeah, enjoy the interview and then stick around because we have so many insights from him. We'll get to the interview right after this break. Hey guys, quick break to let you know that we now have merch on sisters matcha.com.

Starting point is 00:02:47 We have sweatshirts and t-shirts that we designed yourselves. Go check it out. And please rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. These ratings are so important for the distribution and survival of Tiger Sisters Podcast. Thank you for your support. Hello, my name is John Wu. I'm president of Ava Labs, the team behind the blockchain Avalanche. And I've been in tech either as an investor or an operator my entire career.

Starting point is 00:03:10 First, I started out as a tech investor back in the day with firms like Tiger, Kingden, and then running my own firm. And then I became an operator in the blockchain crypto space. Okay. So I'm 35 now. What advice would you give to your 35-year-old self? So you're 35. You just, well, actually, you've been out of business school now for seven years.

Starting point is 00:03:32 Yeah. So that's normal. I think if I look back when I was your age and I was also about, I think, seven years out of, six, seven years out of business school, I would tell myself to just relax because it's all going to work out. Oh, that's so good. But then I actually, I was with one of my B school classmates and we said that to each other. And then we looked at each other and said, there's no way you would have said that to yourself

Starting point is 00:03:58 back then. And you sound very old for saying that now. No, but I feel like that's something you need to hear because like a lot of people, I mean, I'll speak for myself, but also people my age. I feel like you're kind of like have this, like, low-grade anxiety underneath all the time because you're like at the age where you're like, okay, I feel like I should have like made something of myself by now. But I don't know if what I'm doing is what I want my like legacy to be. So I still feel like I have to like define myself and like, is it my last chance to like do something new and different? And I think that's actually good. I said something about your character because that means you're someone who wants to achieve and

Starting point is 00:04:34 you're always aspiring. I feel like even now, you know, 20 plus years after business school that I'm still not getting to the points that I want to get. And that's only because the, um, the bars keep moving forward. Yeah. And you've, you've, you've kind of like reinvented yourself. Yeah. I was basically retired and then, um, and then came back to this business. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because you were first, you were an investor. Yep. And then what made you decide to become an operator? So one of my, so I started investing in the crypto space in 2014. So basically the investments themselves got me interested in the space and then one thing led to another. Okay, cool. What was your first job and how did it shape, like how you approach your like work and like first real job or my first job job? First job job,

Starting point is 00:05:27 anything like first job job job. I was just like a pool lifeguard. So you're saving lives. I did I actually just saved one's life. Wow. Cool. Okay. I didn't even have to jump into the pool. I was like in high school. Okay.

Starting point is 00:05:43 And there was a little kid, unfortunately, they were kind of like jumping up and down because he didn't know how to swim. And he was in the deep end, jumping from trying to get back above. And all I had to do was I just literally grabbed this hair and pulled them out of the pool. I didn't even have to jump in. But I did, I think I saved him from release having a very traumatic experience. Yes. Maybe not life or death.

Starting point is 00:06:06 hopefully, but. Okay, that's a high bar. So in your first job ever, you literally were saving lives. I'll never forget that. Yes, because you're, you sit up on this chair, you look down, like, never anything happens. And all of a sudden, I looked down and there was a kid literally bouncing up and down. And I realized what was going on. So, and you're not going to, and he's by the wall. So you're not going to dive into the pool like you're taught to. So I just literally climbed down the chair and then went towards where he was and just, reach down and grabbed them by his hair and pull them out. Yeah. Okay. So then how does that translate? Is it like it's taught you to be like always vigilant or like always observing or like is there any sort of translation there or like not really? I don't know if there's any translation from I don't

Starting point is 00:06:52 know if there's anything I really took away from that except for I felt like I did my job. And that is always been something that's top of my mind. Like if I'm there to do something, I want to do it well. Yeah. And that was a very easy job to just actually sit there and daydream and lose yourself in thought or something. And then someone's life was in danger. So I think when, if there's any one takeaway, I think if I've learned, if you do something, you might as well do it well. Otherwise, don't do it. Yeah. Like having pride in your work and in your role. I think we lack that today. Pride in ownership and pride of work. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Kind of going into the opposite direction. What failure, if any, are you most grateful for? Or do you feel like really helped shape you into who you are today?

Starting point is 00:07:49 I remember my first failure that I was able to reflect on. Like yourself, I think throughout your high school life, you were probably very achievement oriented and things just worked whether it's grades or school or sports or whatever. Except I didn't get into Yale. That was my one. It's okay. I'm not bitter about it.

Starting point is 00:08:13 I don't think about it anymore or anything like that. It's weird. When failures happen, you're never grateful for them. But the one I remember them most, because as a child, I'm sure you were similar fashion in high school as a child. You just, you know, you're a high achiever and things happen relatively easily. But every level you go to college or you go to something else, the competition. It's like a pyramid.

Starting point is 00:08:35 It gets tougher and tougher. Yeah. So I thought I could just walk on in college and play baseball. Yeah. Because I was decent in high school and I walked on and then they post the list of who makes the team. And I didn't even go check because usually when in high school I just always made a team, whether it was the high school team or the travel team.

Starting point is 00:08:55 And then I realized I better go look because I'm not sure if I made this team. And then I went and looked and I was not on the list and it was kind of like devastating because I felt like like that was the first time I was left off of a list in any capacity, school, sports, or social or whatever. And that made me think a lot and made me realize that, you know what, it's just as much about how resilient you are as much as how successful you are. And resilience is something that I think a lot of people who are successful ultimately have, it's a skill or it's a trait that people have to acquire. Yeah. So after you cried in your room for two weeks, never cried, but reflected. Reflected. Okay. He reflected in his room for two weeks after that. And then

Starting point is 00:09:44 yes, probably not even two weeks, probably just like a day and then you go out at night and that's it. Yeah. Cool. What is a hot take that you have in your industry? You work in crypto. Yeah. A hot take. What does a hot take mean exactly? It means like a contrarian belief that you hold, contrarian to most people, most other people. Well, in crypto, there's such bifurcated views, so it's hard to be completely contrarian to most people, but there's really two views.

Starting point is 00:10:20 The people in crypto think they're saving the world, and people in the world think crypto people are a bunch of scams. And reality is just like everything else, it's somewhere in between. There is in Web 3 or crypto, I think of it as a petri dish of like genius, experimentation, as well as fraud and scams all in one. And hopefully out of all of this will have some greatness and things that will, I think, especially companies like where I am where it's a software and services company, make other industries and other companies better at whatever they're doing at some point. So I guess it sounds like your hot take is like it's basically it's not. all black and white like everyone makes it out to be. It's the whole industry is about shades of gray.

Starting point is 00:11:05 Absolutely. Everything is a, there's always a somewhere in between for everything. I think it's just easier for people from the outside looking in at whatever it is they're looking in to paint a situation black or white when usually things are far more complicated. Slightly different direction. What are you most excited about for the conference specifically? Well, first of all, this is my swift version of a con, K-H-A-N, friends. Each one outdoes the previous one. And the best thing about all of these conferences is all the cool people one gets to meet in all of these, like you guys. I mean, met both of you.

Starting point is 00:11:46 It's incredible how people are doing so many exciting things in different areas. And Imran's background is so great because he's gone from East Coast to West Coast. now he lives in the middle of the country, banking to financial analyst to a tech, you know, operator. So he brings like various different people from all parts of the business world. And it's really nice to see them, you know, work together and talk together and share viewpoints. Yeah. It's kind of like it feels like it's like a big like salon.

Starting point is 00:12:20 Like you know like the old like like an actual salon where like everyone is like actually sharing ideas. and, like, debating and, like, a lot of things actually come out of it. Yeah. I mean, what's startling is, you know, whether it are, like, 180 people, 190, something, a lot of people, each one's bigger. But I would say 90% of those people are literally one degree separation from Iran. We're not talking about someone, someone to someone. It's really one degree.

Starting point is 00:12:49 Somehow he knows, and he maintains such a good relationship with all of these 160. Yeah. I mean, like, you've known him since he was 24. He was saying, that's amazing. That's right. I've known him since he was a kid and I was a kid. It's amazing. How about a travel recommendation, John? Can you give us what is a place that you love to go when you're not working? When I'm not working, I love to go places with my family. Usually warm places. Hawaii was once, but like I'm from the East Coast, so we usually go to the Caribbean. all those places.

Starting point is 00:13:25 I mean, there's so many great blue water-type beaches. It's a lot of fun. And I don't think the West Coast people appreciate it much. They appreciate Hawaii in that area. And I've been there, and that's beautiful as well. But it's really who you're with. Yeah. And then I think a nice environment is just like a big bonus,

Starting point is 00:13:45 as long as you can get away with the right people. Yeah. John, as a kid, were you a rule follower or a rule breaker? That depends if my parents around, I was definitely a rule follower. But when they weren't around, I probably tried to break a few rules for fun. Just to test the edges, right? Yes. You have to always test the boundaries and see what is good and what's not good.

Starting point is 00:14:15 Yeah. Okay. What about now? How would you classify yourself? Now I think I have enough common sense to know when to break a boundary, when not to step over it based on my own you know as an adult you have your own belief systems what's right and wrong and i follow that more than anything always going back to first principles yeah that was great you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you wow what a great interview with john

Starting point is 00:14:40 so good it was amazing we're so excited to get to the takeaways but before we go there please remember to like comment and subscribe and if you're listening to this podcast on spotify or apple podcast Please rate us five stars. It'll take a few seconds. And it means the world to us. All right. We'll be back with the takeaways right after this break. Hey, everyone, quick break to share something special, Sisters Macha. We've launched limited batches of ceremonial grade, single estate, single cultivar, matcha, straight from the family farm Shari worked on in Japan. It's pure, authentic, and crafted with intention. Head to SistersMacha.com to grab yours before it sells out.

Starting point is 00:15:18 Make Macha your daily ritual for lasting energy and focus. And we're back. We're back. Okay. So the first thing I want to talk about is actually John's background and his resume because we don't get into it at all in the interview. And that's just like really important context, I think. And I think people, most people do not know how stacked his resume is. So first of all, he started out as an analyst at Tiger Management, which is the famous hedge fund.

Starting point is 00:15:46 So he worked there in the 90s under Julian Robertson. Tiger Capital, similar to Tiger Sisters, which came first. Who's to say? And then he went on to eventually become a portfolio manager at Kingdon Capital, which is another really well-known hedge fund. And then he ended up starting his own fund, which is like a tech-focused hedge fund of his own. I mentioned before that I used to work on Wall Street, so I have a little bit of context because my old job was investing in alternate investments, including hedge funds. So I like, I know the big ones. And I just want a fan girl for a sec that he used to work at where he basically grew up at Tiger Management. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:26 What is that? So it's this renowned hedge fund that ended up, it was so successful that all of the hedge funds that ended up coming out of it were actually called Tiger Cubs. So if you ever heard that phrase like, oh, this hedge fund is a Tiger Cub. So like Tiger Global, Maverick, Lone Pine, Koto. Like if you ever heard of those, those are some of the biggest and most successful hedge fund. funds in the world. Yeah. Those are all tiger cubs. Yeah. And it's actually so it's like such a lore. It's such a thing that there's even hedge funds that are called grand cubs. So like the legacy. It's kind of crazy how how much people associate or like imbue that with like some sort of

Starting point is 00:17:07 importance. Yeah. It's giving PayPal mafia. Yeah. But in the financial world. Exactly. It's the equivalent of that in the finance world. But then on one hand it also reminds me of like in a sorority when Like the big little, grand little, great grand little. Cousins. Yes, I had cousins in my sorority. She had a really strong sorority family. And also second cousins. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:17:30 I was actually closer with my second cousin. That's the Shiree lore. Shurie lore. And you and John are also both HBS alum. Yeah. And so like between all that at some point he went to business school and now he's the president of Ava Labs, which is an A16 backed blockchain. platform company. Very cool. Yeah. And he at one point in the interview, you remember he said, like,

Starting point is 00:17:54 I basically came out of retirement to take on this job. Yeah. Which I think is so cool. I love talking to people who have had like multiple careers. Yeah. Because it's just evidence. You can do so many different things. It's really, and he has never done operations before he like retired, basically. He had this whole long like storied career in finance. Then he came back to be an operator. Yeah. And then he talks about like there's different chapters to his life, which I'm excited to dive into in the takeaways. Yeah. The first takeaway is John's anecdote about his first job. I love that he shared that he was a lifeguard.

Starting point is 00:18:30 And like the very specific story was that when he was a lifeguard, he actually like saved some kids life. And honestly, the biggest takeaway, because we asked him like, how has this like impacted you and like the rest of your career. But like I really like what he said about taking pride in your work. And like, you could just see how. much and like how seriously he took that job yeah I think these days these days you know kids these days I don't know people these days sometimes I don't see a lot of pride in their work and like they just like show up to work and it's just a job but I feel really excited by and like inspired by people who take pride in their work yeah I remember I actually wrote down his quote he said if you're going

Starting point is 00:19:12 to do something you might as well do it well yes I genuinely believe that too you can see in someone's excitement that they're like excited about what they're doing and that they're proud of their work. I don't know. I just feel like we don't see that anymore these days. Yeah. It actually reminds me of something that one of our other interviewees, Imran Khan said. It's kind of like John is saying, if you're going to do something, do it well, have pride in your work. And then what Imran said was every job is hard. Yeah. Like don't have this like self-centered view where you just think the thing that you're doing is the most difficult. Every job, no matter how medial it may seem, which like being a high school lifeguard may seem kind of menial, right?

Starting point is 00:19:51 Like 99.9% of the time, nothing happens. You should sit in the chair. Or it looks like you're just sitting in the chair. Right. But you're, it is hard. Yeah. I love that callback to Imran's episode. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:03 We'll link that here. Yeah. I like tying them together and like seeing the, the ties between what people are saying for, you know, the same question. It's also kind of like pattern matching too. Mm-hmm. I think there's something to be said. like when I worked at LinkedIn, when we would have like literally show and tells for our engineering team.

Starting point is 00:20:22 Yeah. Every Friday. We had that too. And so people, the engineers on our team would show what they worked on in the latest sprint in the last two weeks. And like you can just really tell when someone's like very proud of what they've done. It really shines through. I think it makes for a better like culture. You know, not someone's just like, oh, I'm doing the bare minimum.

Starting point is 00:20:40 But really people take on like the ownership mentality no matter what the job is, whether you're an engineer or you're like a lifeguard when you're a high. school. Yeah. I mean, and even to take that analogy a little bit further, providing the space and giving the recognition to all different sorts of the engineering task, because sometimes an engineer would present something that was like the really super big deal that was going to get a major headline in the press. And then sometimes it would present something that was literally just like fixing an internal tool. But fixing the internal tool saved the PMs like hundreds of hours of headache. So yeah, like every job is important and take pride in what you do yeah and if you're not proud of what you're doing like right now I think that's also like a space to reflect on like why you don't feel proud of what

Starting point is 00:21:28 you're doing are you like doing the right job the right role are you working with the people who make you excited to work and it's okay if the answers are no like that's really telling if the answers are no how do you like take that back and like yeah kind of figure out like what would make you proud to do yeah conversely like I'm reflecting now there are definitely times in my career where I was like deeply unhappy with many aspects of my job and they were very like challenging and difficult but I took so much pride in what I was doing that I actually like stuck it out in these really uh questionable working situations because I loved what I was doing and building so much yeah that's like the other

Starting point is 00:22:14 side. Yeah. It's kind of like a balance. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if that's necessarily good, but it is kind of just like what you value, right? It's like different. And you can have, you can weight your values differently at different times depending on what your goal is for that time period versus your goal for the long term. Yeah. I agree. One takeaway that I had is actually another similarity between what John said and what Vu Tran said in an earlier episode when we asked both of them what, if they were a world, breaker or rule follower as a child. What John said is that you always have to test your boundaries. And then what Voo said is kind of like another flavor of that where he said, you always

Starting point is 00:22:54 have to question your constraint. And so it's just another instance of like pattern matching. Yeah. When two people say kind of like similar things. Yeah. And you're like, wait, these are two really smart people. They have wisdom to share. And like if I want to kind of follow in their footsteps, like maybe that's something.

Starting point is 00:23:14 that I should implement myself. Yeah. I like it. It's I like both of them actually combined because you need to kind of do both in order to be like a very like thoughtful like entrepreneur. Like you need both. Yeah. And then when we extended the question to like, oh, what about now as an adult? John said, oh, now I have enough common sense and I have my own belief system and that's what I follow. Yeah. But like I think that the way that he had formed that belief system was by pushing his boundaries as a child and then like understanding the world around him and like making his own opinion and forming that belief system over a long period of time. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:54 So it's kind of like it's interesting to to make that tie and to like form that connection between what he says he is today versus how he acted as a child. And I think the cool thing is that's not something that is limited to like child versus adult behavior, right? I kind of feel like that's something we should always be doing. sort of like questioning your constraints, sort of pushing the boundaries. And like that's kind of what can inform your belief system on an ongoing basis. But your belief system is not something that's fixed.

Starting point is 00:24:26 Yeah, that's not fixed or static per se. I think that's kind of scary for most people know. Like I think people don't want necessarily. I think the default is that people don't like change. And I think it's really scary to some people that like their belief systems could change. Like I believe this for the last like 25 years. Yeah. Like this is new information. Well, I'm not saying that's the right mindset, but I think that's actually really scary. And it takes a certain type of personality and like open mindedness and

Starting point is 00:24:54 growth mindset to like want that. Yeah. But it is something that you can adopt at any time. Neuropasticity. Yeah. Like you can start to take on that behavior, even if it's not something you did as a child. Yeah. It's so interesting. You're making, you're reminding me of this conversation I actually had with next boyfriend that kind that really opened up my eyes this was a very long time ago this was in 2020 where like we were having a discussion slash argument and okay and he was like we can both be right and I was like oh and I don't know why I keep I always think about that now like it wasn't like I don't know I think going into that conversation I was like either he was right or I was right and I had to like kind of like argue it until like one of us could be right and he's like you

Starting point is 00:25:42 you know both of us could be right in the situation. I don't know. I really liked that because it kind of goes to like being open minded that like there's not necessarily one right answer or one wrong answer. And part of being open minded and having growth mindset is being like not only saying that I could be wrong, but we could both be right. That was her awakening. That was when no names will be mentioned.

Starting point is 00:26:09 That was when she achieved consciousness. What do you think about that? that. I don't, well, also, I will say, sorry, before you tell me what you think about that, I think growing up in the environment that we grew up in, especially coming from being like first-gen Americans and coming from an immigrant family, sometimes like I grew up thinking that there could only be one right answer. One person was right and we had to, you know, debate it to the end. But like, I don't know. I feel like it's a very American, perhaps, or like Western ideology that, like, there can be many right answers. Yeah, not.

Starting point is 00:26:42 the adult authority. I think maybe not like Western necessarily, but more just, I would say, evolved. It's like the concept of like, I can't remember what it's called right now, but the idea of like being able to hold two opposing thoughts in your mind at the same time. And like not necessarily reconciling those two or not feeling like you have to reconcile them, but just being able to hold two opposing thoughts in your mind. Like I feel like that. Emotional maturity.

Starting point is 00:27:11 Yeah. Is it emotional? maturity or is it like cognitive maturity? Like I feel like that's an indication of sort of like cognitive maturity, cognitive development. Yeah. I don't know for me personally, we don't ever really talk about this, but like we're both Christian. Right. So like I believe in God.

Starting point is 00:27:32 I believe in like the fact there's a higher. I don't know why I'm talking about this, but I feel like this is a good example. Yeah. I believe that there's a higher power. But do I also believe in evolution? yes. It's being able to hold these two opposing thoughts. Like man made humans.

Starting point is 00:27:49 I mean, sorry, God made humans, but also evolution. It's true. It's true. I don't know what to do with that. Don't ask us any more questions. With no further questions will be answered on this topic. I don't know. I just want to know what you guys think.

Starting point is 00:28:06 Am I unique in that thinking? I can't be. I don't think so. Yeah. Okay, back to John Wu. Didn't think I was going to take it there. Going back to your introduction of John, like, I really thought it was so interesting that he started his career off as an investor, then operator. Like, I love how he continually reinvents himself.

Starting point is 00:28:34 And I have a quote where he says, 20 years out of business school, right? He's graduated from HBS. He still feels like he's not getting to where he wants to be. I was like, I love that. I just love that. Wow, like you're so amazing. Like, I want to be where you are. But it's also like, God damn.

Starting point is 00:28:53 Like he's achieved so much already from the outside. You can see he already retired. He already retired. Came out of retirement. Like, he didn't. It doesn't seem like he needed to. Yeah. But like, it's just, I think once again, gross mindset.

Starting point is 00:29:05 At first I was going to be like, it seems like you're being kind of hard on yourself. It's like from the outside. Like, you've achieved a lot. But like, I love that he's still. kind of striving for more, kind of wanting to have a larger impact and do more that he like literally came out of retirement. So I really like that quote that he keeps reinventing himself and the bar keeps getting higher. Yeah. Well, it kind of goes to, it raises the question of like, maybe his North Star is not achievement, but it's just like constantly learning and growing and I don't know,

Starting point is 00:29:38 like contributing to and building. A telic mindset. Oh. As opposed to a telek, telic mindset. This is one of Shri's banger. This is a short form video. You should,

Starting point is 00:29:53 you should just mention it again. It's good. It's good. Well, basically, so it's this concept. The word telos, T-E-L-O-S is like, I think it's a Greek or Latin phrase of like the end. And it's, it refers to a mindset. So you can either have a telic or.

Starting point is 00:30:10 or an atelic mindset. So telic mindset is one that has a very, like, finite goal. Whereas an atelic mindset, you do not have a finite goal in mind so that when you achieve a milestone, you don't feel like you're, you're missing something. So an example of this is that because John has an atelic mindset, it's not achievement based. It's more like contribution based. So that, like, there is no end. He can continue having an impact and how. having contributions to society, whereas a telic mindset is like, oh, I want to have a kid, checkmark. I want to get a promotion, check mark. But once you get that checkmark, you're like, what now?

Starting point is 00:30:50 You feel more empty. So the whole point is that we should be chasing things that are more atelic that don't really have an end. Yeah. My first job out of school when I wanted to, my goal was to become a partner at Goldman Sachs. So that was telic goal, telic mindset, telic goal. and then obviously I didn't end up doing it. I guess never say never. Hey, I can go back as an MD.

Starting point is 00:31:15 You'll go back as an MD. I'll go back as an MD. I want to go back as a partner. Okay, you'll go back as a partner. Yeah. Never say never. But now taking on the atelic mindset, my goal is more to have, you know,

Starting point is 00:31:29 a massive impact to have to help a lot of people all around the world to be constantly improving. Yeah, like growing. and affecting the world in a positive way. And that shit never ends. Another takeaway that I had from this conversation was around the question, what failure are you most grateful for?

Starting point is 00:31:51 So first of all, I noticed that he reworded it to be, what failure was I able to reflect on? Which is interesting because it's like, you can't actually have, you can't be grateful for something until you can actually like reflect on it. Totally.

Starting point is 00:32:13 Stick with it. Yeah. I thought that was an interesting like rephrasing that he did. Basically what he said, his takeaway was it's just as much about how resilient you are versus how successful you are. So I think a lot of people put a lot of weight on being successful. But I think being resilient is actually a precursor to being successful. Because unless you're. you're just able to be successful every single time, which is like impossible, which is impossible.

Starting point is 00:32:43 If you're not able to be resilient and bounce back from a failure, you're kind of going to just stay in that failure state and you'll never be able to keep growing to be successful. Yeah. And bouncing back can mean a lot of things. But basically it's just like, can you pick yourself back up again, get out there and try it again, knowing that success is not guaranteed that you might fail again. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess it's. better to learn it earlier in life. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:33:11 And to realize that failing at something is not the end of the world doesn't mean your failure. Right. And so John's anecdote here was that he like didn't make the baseball team. And he felt really confident going into tryouts. I don't even know what it was that he was going to make it. Like he wasn't even going to check the sign up sheet because he's like, ah, I made it. And then he realized he didn't make it. That I think for him was like a wake up moment.

Starting point is 00:33:36 Wake up. but also something that I've heard, especially from my Stanford professors and, like, lecturers, is that they're like, you kids at Stanford haven't failed enough. And they're like, you have gotten into the schools, gotten into the job, gotten the recommendation that now you're at Stanford. Like, you haven't failed enough. So I don't think you're trying hard enough is like some of the rhetoric that I've heard from our professors because they're like, life has been, like they've said to us, life has been too easy for you guys. And so if you do come across like a failure, you won't have that built up resilience. So it's kind of what David Schim said in one of our previous episodes and conversations this season where he's like failure training is so important to build up that resilience early in life.

Starting point is 00:34:20 Yeah. And I think it's also recognizing that just because you fail at something, it doesn't make it your fault. Like there are factors outside of your control. All you can do is to try your best. I guess that sounds trite. but sometimes it's hard to remember that when you're kind of like in it yeah when you're like in the throwes of a failure i mean but all that also goes to say if there are a lot of external exogenous factors things that are outside of your control can you try and construct a situation

Starting point is 00:34:52 where things are more in your control like sometimes if you're building a startup and it's just like raising money is really hard in this environment like that's outside of your control but like timing is out of your control, but are there different things you can kind of like piece together to like set yourself up for success? Yeah. And also sometimes you might not be in the right situation where you can be successful. Like sometimes it means you have to change whatever situation you're in. I've actually at when I used to work at LinkedIn and or like beyond like other projects, sometimes I would ask the people I was working with, especially if I was taking something on. I was like, do you feel like this is set up for success? Like I would

Starting point is 00:35:31 ask them. Damn. Especially if I had like a doubt in my mind that I was just like, oh, there's like a lot of like, wow other factors going on or like if I was taking over like, you know, something for like my women in product group, like a project and like it didn't have the backing of the the VPs that we needed. We didn't have enough people like working on this. And then I'm like taking it over.

Starting point is 00:35:51 I would ask the person who's asking me to take it over. I'm like, do you really believe this is set up for success? As a former manager, that's a pretty tough question. Yeah. Well, I'm like, don't give me a failing project. And if it is a failing project, let me know. Yeah. So then I can go in with expectations.

Starting point is 00:36:06 You know? Yeah. That's true. Because then you know, like, what is the definition of success for this project? I think it's a good question. Like, am I set up? Do you believe? Do you honestly believe?

Starting point is 00:36:16 That I was doing cross-examination and her one-on-ones. That I'm set up for success. They could say yes. I mean, they would always say yes, of course, because they want me to do what they said. But, you know, like, they would bring up. other factors too. Well, I mean, thinking back on my own experience, like, I used to have very candid conversations with my direct reports where I would tell them sometimes like, hey, we would get a mandate from the execs. And I would be like, yeah, this is not something like in like between us. Like,

Starting point is 00:36:48 we're not going to achieve this. But like, I know that this is kind of their method of having us like try to like aim for the moon and land in the stars or whatever, you know, whatever the phrase is. But like, We know that like we're not actually going to hit this, but we could hit something freaking amazing like on the way to trying to aim for this. Yeah. Always cross-examine your managers. They're there to work for you. I think some people would receive that better than others.

Starting point is 00:37:19 So I mean, you could ask it in a nice way. Like, do you believe I'm sent up for success? Take stock of who you're working with. Yes, of course. and your relationship with your manager if you're able to say those things and you feel safe and comfortable with them. Yes. Yes.

Starting point is 00:37:37 But the fact that you were able to say that, I think speaks a lot to the quality of your managers and then also your level of self-confidence as a young employee. Yeah. Is it? Wow. I just demanded things. The youngest child, they just have a lot of gall. They have a lot of.

Starting point is 00:38:01 of gall, I have to say. That's for the better. Yeah. For you. Youngest child. Leads to better outcomes, actually. Youngest child mindset. And the last takeaway in this conversation with John is when he mentioned crypto because

Starting point is 00:38:13 that's the space that he's in now. And basically, I like how nuanced he talked about crypto. So he says it's a petri dish of innovation and of scam. It's not all black and white. It's about shades of gray. There's always a somewhere in between for everything. He says that it's easier to paint a situation black and white, but usually it's far more complicated. And that's just life, baby.

Starting point is 00:38:40 Like, that's just like, I love the nuance that he brings into the conversation. It applies to crypto. It applies to like, crypto is life. That's not what I said. But it applies to like, I don't know, misquote her. Government policies. It applies to like everything. It's just like, I find that when I talk to people and they think things are black and white,

Starting point is 00:39:00 for me that's very challenging and I know that's just different mindsets like when we're talking about like anything I just think it's for me more situational and that's probably because I'm an NFJ and the Myers-Briggs like I think I take cues from my environment and also like my internal compass yeah I think people who have like a much like black and white like also there's just no room for a conversation yeah that's literally just like you try and converse with them and then what you get back is a set of talking points in a lecture. Like there's no interaction in that conversation. Right.

Starting point is 00:39:37 Reminds me of a different ex. She's in a real reflective mate. I have therapy later today. But yeah, I think it's just really important. I like the reason why I bring this up is that because I can tell that John is a very thoughtful leader that takes multiple points into consideration when he's forming like a thought point of view. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:59 Because it's not all black and white. Everything is great and nuanced, especially in this day and age with everything, like AI, with politics. I really enjoyed our conversation with John. I thought he has so much wisdom and he's just also like a really kind person. Yeah. You can tell. And it really comes across.

Starting point is 00:40:22 Thank you guys so much for tuning in to this podcast episode of the Tiger Sisters. please remember to like, comment, and subscribe, and we'll see you next time. Bye.

Tiger Sisters - The trap high achievers fall into. What I wish I knew at 35.

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