Tiger Sisters - To Anyone Working With A Toxic Boss: How to Deal With It & Move On

Starting point is 00:00:00 I loki feel like we're going through some of the personality disorders of sociopaths and serial killers. I mean, it makes sense that there's an overlap because we're not just talking about bad bosses. We're talking about toxic bosses, like toxic landfill, like got to get away from them. I'm Cherie. I'm Gene. And we're the Tiger Sisters. We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley Big Sisters. And we're a top 10 business podcast bringing late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Guys, work and building a career is hard, but it is 10,000 times harder when you have a bad boss or even worse, a toxic boss.

Starting point is 00:00:37 In today's episode, we're going to go over how to know if you have a toxic boss, how to get out of a bad situation, and then we're going to share your workplace horror stories and our reflections and also advice on it. This episode is so important because your relationship with your boss, your direct relationship, is proven to have an impact on your mental health, your financial outcomes, and even your next job because recommendations these days are so people-based. Some people care about work a lot, and we are those people. Who me?

Starting point is 00:01:08 We're really invested in our career and our growth, but we recognize that not everyone is like that. Sometimes for people, a job is just a job, and that's okay. But no matter what circumstance you're in, if you have a toxic boss, your life will be so much more miserable. So the reason why we wanted to do this episode is because having a bad boss or a toxic boss is such a universal experience. And when you're in that experience, even though it's universal, you can feel so, so alone. And that's how I felt. So we want to do this

Starting point is 00:01:36 episode so that you actually have methods on how to get out of that situation. And if you're one of the lucky ones who has never had a bad boss or a toxic boss, then one, congratulations. But two, this is kind of a playbook on what to do if you actually do encounter one down the line. And then finally, if you think neither of these things apply to you, then this is actually going to teach you how to not become a toxic boss yourself. Today's episode is presented by SoFi, the all in one finance app that helps you bank, borrow, and invest your money in one place. Before we dive in, I do want to disclose that I personally have never had a toxic boss. But I do have a lot of friends and obviously, you know, people in my life who have experienced one. But I think for my perspective, I can share some of the really great experiences I've had in the workplace.

Starting point is 00:02:26 And so if you're watching this, you're a people manager, you are a boss. There are some tips in there for you as well. So I haven't been as lucky as Sheree, and I've definitely had some toxic bosses. So I think it's going to be a really interesting conversation where we compare contrast. Yeah. So let's just jump right in and define what is a toxic boss because there are a lot of bosses out there that are stressful and demanding, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're toxic. Exactly. We're not just talking about bosses who are saying, oh, you need to stay late to meet your deadline or you need to work overtime. We're talking about recurring behaviors that are actually eroding your autonomy and hurting your mental health.

Starting point is 00:03:02 Right. So according to a 2024 Harvard Business Review Guide to Navigating a toxic workplace, it says that a toxic boss is someone whose behavior consistently harms the psychological safety, well-being, motivation, and career growth of their employees. So adding on to that, this could include a boss who exhibits these behaviors, gaslights their employees, aka you rewrite the narrative to avoid accountability on the boss's part, micromanages or undermines trust, disrespects contributions and ignores boundaries, or belittles, bullies, and demeans team members sometimes in public meetings. This one I have definitely seen. It was a very young company, and we had very young managers, very young bosses, who I think didn't really have great role models of their own.

Starting point is 00:03:49 So I remember this one time in a huge meeting of like, you know, 50 plus people. One of my coworkers was giving a presentation. And he was going through this whole complicated analysis and like some part of it was wrong. And the head of product at the time was basically berating him in front of the entire meeting and was like basically picking him apart and forcing him to do it. defend each, like basically do math in front of the entire group, like live. And when he was doing it wrong, he was like, no, like this is wrong. This presentation is totally stupid and you're stupid too. And I was like, oh, that's so traumatizing. And I felt really bad. I mean,

Starting point is 00:04:34 everyone else is like probably in shock, traumatized and also like getting secondhand toxicity from that, you know, from that interaction. That's really, really toxic. Yeah, it's like secondhand smoke. Yeah. Secondhand toxicity. I mean, it's bad for the entire, like, culture, the environment. It's not only like hurtful for that like person who's literally being called stupid in

Starting point is 00:04:56 front of everyone, but everyone else is like, I don't want to seem stupid either. Yeah, that's a great point. It creates kind of like a culture of fear where everyone's like, oh, like, shit. Like, I can never mess up because if I ever make a mistake or say something that this boss doesn't like, then they're going to berate me and call me out and like call me stupid or worse in front of everyone. Yeah. And I think that anecdote is especially worrying because it's not really just like a one-time thing because it really breeds like a culture of toxicity and also potentially bad managers. But this HBR guide is super helpful because it breaks down the importance

Starting point is 00:05:31 of understanding toxicity as patterned behavior and not just your manager having like one or two bad days. So Harvard Business Review put out an article about a year ago and it's called five red flags of a truly toxic boss. We're going to link this article in the description if you guys want to do a deeper diagnosis, but we're going to go through just the five tips right now to look out for. So basically this section is how to tell or diagnose if you have a toxic boss. So bosses are toxic if, number one, they lack self-awareness. Toxic bosses lack the ability to recognize and control their emotions. They tend to think they're right about everything, which inhibits their ability to create resonance with teams and makes them

Starting point is 00:06:11 resistant to feedback. We hate an unself-aware king. Or queen. Or queen. Okay, number two, they lack empathy. Toxic bosses don't invest time or energy in building relationships to understand how their communication approach may impact others. They struggle to relate to team members' challenges, perspectives, and emotions, and this in turn leads to low trust. I loki feel like we're going through some of the personality disorders of sociopaths and serial killers. I mean, it makes sense. that it would seem like there's an overlap. Because we're not just talking about bad bosses. We're talking about toxic bosses.

Starting point is 00:06:47 Like landfill, like toxic landfill. Like got to get away from them. Yeah. So number three, they're only motivated by self-interest. Toxic bosses make everything about themselves and seek to take credit for other people's work. They're more likely to make risky attention-grabbing strategic moves often at the expense of long-term stability.

Starting point is 00:07:08 Yeah, long-term team stability too. So a lot of times when they're making these moves, They're really good short-term moves for that boss specifically because they get a lot of like accolades or maybe they're getting promoted, but it's usually at the expense of the broader team. True. And number four, they demonstrate inconsistent behavior. Toxic bosses are unpredictable and employees may find it difficult to decipher what's expected of them from one day to the next. These bosses are unclear in their communication, often displaying favoritism and often discrimination. This I have definitely experienced. And I think this is one of the worst parts of a toxic boss because you literally, your body is in like a state of fear every single day because you don't know how they're going to react. It's like being in an abusive relationship in some ways because you're like, oh, are they going to like be happy today? Or are they going to like make jokes? Or are they going to be angry and like be pissed off about whatever thing? And be mean. And like you don't, obviously you can't control that. So.

Starting point is 00:08:09 It's one of the worst parts, I think, of these five. And the last one is number five. They take advantage of power dynamics. Toxic bosses weaponize their power, expecting employees to carry out their instructions obediently and without questioning their authority or the value of the work being undertaken. Okay, I have also, this is like, this is like therapy for me because I have also experienced this where I had a boss where me and another colleague reported into the boss. and we later found this out when me and this colleague, you know, had a heart to heart years later.

Starting point is 00:08:43 But this boss would tell us each different things where we were supposed to be working together. So he would be like, oh, like you guys work together on this. And he would say that in a meeting in front of everyone. But then separately to this other person, he would be like, do not prioritize her project. And basically he would tell her to like sabotage my project in a one-on-one. So. Damn. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:09:05 That's really toxic. And the only reason I know this is because, me and this colleague, we became friends later on and we confided in each other. And she told me, she was like, yeah, like he told me to sabotage your projects all the time, even though in public meetings, he would be like, make sure you prioritize this and help her on this and collaborate. I have like no words for that. That's not so crazy. That's like, that's a little beyond toxic. That's like ruining your career, impacting your career outcomes, your financial outcomes, your mental health. Like you're like, why isn't it my project moving forward when like I think

Starting point is 00:09:37 I have the support of this person. That's like so I have no other word other than toxic. Yeah, but like that's exactly what you described. Take advantage of power dynamics. Toxic bosses weaponize their power, expecting employees to carry out their instructions obediently and without questioning their authority. And so it's also, you know, it probably was difficult for this other colleague too because she was like, wait, this is so weird because in public meetings, he's saying to like work

Starting point is 00:10:03 on this initiative with my colleague, which was me. and to like push this forward but then privately he's telling me not to which is against our stated goals of our entire team it's extremely political yeah like very like house of cards shit where it's just like let me say this in front of other people so they have some sort of belief and then like stab someone else in the back like privately guys this is what i was saying that i have experienced many toxic boss experiences i guess more than enough to go around between me and shiris so it's good that she hasn't experience, I'm happy for you. Well, I also think that Jean is more senior in her career. So she had a different title and like position than I did. That's true. Where she was probably exposed,

Starting point is 00:10:45 I think at the companies that she worked for probably had more toxicity and toxic bosses in general, but I think she was probably exposed to more of it than I was. Whereas I feel like the bosses that I've had since I was an individual contributor, like five years into my career, I think they really shielded me from this from the most part, for the most part, but I think maybe they were exposed to it more. Yeah, I also think, like, honestly, the more senior you get, the more these political dynamics come into play. Because to be honest, like, when you're an individual contributor, like you were a senior PM, right? Like, you're still an individual contributor. But honestly, from the perspective of someone who was your boss, you weren't like a quote-unquote threat to them.

Starting point is 00:11:26 No. Right? Like, you were always their protege. They wanted you to do really well because it reflected well on them, but they weren't like, oh, Shari's going to like overtake me next year. So I need to like secretly sabotage her, but also like make it look like I'm supporting her at the same time. Yeah. So. I think, I mean, I was doing really good work at the level that I was at. And I think if I went more until like manager role where like your, your power is in like

Starting point is 00:11:52 how big your team is, how visible your projects are, in that way, it's more like a land grab and also more like, you know, Game of Thrones. trying, who's going to be at the, sitting on the iron thrown at the end. But it's also not always the case. We have some really crazy examples and experiences that you guys have sent in where you are individual contributors, but you're still experiencing like insane toxic boss situation. So stay tuned for that. So at the end of the day, a toxic boss doesn't just create a negative experience for, you know,

Starting point is 00:12:24 the person that they're managing or just the team that they're in. It creates this kind of like broader environment of distrust and like, discomfort. And we actually have one last article we're going to talk about, which is a BBC article from about a month ago where they talk about research from 2023 that says one in three people have left a job because of a toxic workplace or manager. So, I mean, it's showing that it's like the effect of a toxic boss is it's an economy-wide effect. Yeah. I'm sorry that people have experienced a toxic boss. But if one in three people have left, good. Get out of Get out of that bad situation and that bad relationship you're in.

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Starting point is 00:14:08 See full terms and conditions at sophy.com slash crypto slash 100K. And now back to the show. So as you guys know, Gene has a lot of examples of toxic bosses in her life. But we wanted to open this up to our community and our audience. So we put out on our Instagram a number for you guys to call to leave us voicemails of your toxic boss stories and some of the anecdotes you guys have and also some of the advice. So here's one really good one we got from Emma, not her real name. She says, I'm happy to give you this learning. Toxic bosses tend to be narcissistic, if not full-blown narcissists. Often in our society,

Starting point is 00:14:49 we misconstrue leadership and narcissism. Empaths fall prey to narcissists quite easily because we want to find a reason for everyone's behavior. We give people the benefit. of the doubt. Yeah. I think this one is, I mean, especially true and astute observation. I think a lot of people in power, there's some sort of stat of like how many people in society are actually narcissists, and a lot of them are like business leaders and corporate professionals. Or like sociopaths. Or sociopaths because they actually like are very charismatic and can, you know, control a room, own the room. And we're like, wow, they're amazing. But, you know, as managers, maybe. they're not so good. Okay, so continuing with like a few more anecdotes that you guys submitted,

Starting point is 00:15:35 this is from Alexandra, not her real name, who submitted some anecdotes about negative experiences working with toxic male bosses. So she says, hi, Tiger Sisters, here are some direct quotes from a former male boss to me. One, I'm just trying to figure out how to make you more likable. Two, what are you wearing underneath your scrubs today? Weird, creepy. Yeah, no, that's, That's completely, no, that one's beyond the pale. Horrible. That was effed up. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:04 Alexandra, we are so sorry to hear that. That is a terrible, terrible experience. It actually reminds me of one of the stories that my friend Morgan told me, not her real name, where she has always worked in a very male-dominated environment where she's always worked in finance and like in a specific sector of finance that is like even more male-dominated than usual. And I remember she told me that she was at this small finance company. She moved to this new team and she was like, okay, great.

Starting point is 00:16:35 I left the like, you know, bulge bracket banks and now I'm like in a smaller team. It was all men except for her on the investment team, on the investment side. And one day she went into work and nobody was there. Everyone was missing. No one was in the office. And she was like, where's everyone? Hello. And then she later found out that all of the guys on the team, aka everyone aside from her,

Starting point is 00:16:57 had gone out to a baseball team, a baseball game together as like a team bonding and no one had bothered to tell her. And they just assumed that she wouldn't be interested or like wanted to exclude her because she was a woman. It's so rude. Isn't that crazy? It's so rude. But also like like 1950. But also like baseball like anyone can watch baseball. I think they just like didn't want to. They just didn't want her there. They just didn't want her there. That's so clear to me. Yeah. And also she knows a lot of sports. Like she's like actually really sporty. She's super sporty and would have like enjoyed. So yeah, she probably knows more sports than half of them. Yeah. Clearly I don't know sports because I'm just saying no sports. Like by using that phrase, I'm clearly not one of these people. But she knows

Starting point is 00:17:40 sports. I should have been excluded, excluded maybe, but not not morton. Yeah. I think that story is really tough to hear because I I know how hard it is to have like a male boss and also like male teammates in that way where they're not inclusive of you. Yeah. But I do. male boss. Toxic male boss. Not just any male boss. A toxic male boss. But I also do want to call out.

Starting point is 00:18:01 Just it is also possible to have a toxic female boss as well, especially in male dominated environments. And so one of our audience members, Sarah gave us just basically a story where she had a toxic female boss. And that was really hard on her because like there weren't many men in their like team or, you know, their, their role essentially. working working in tech. Look to her to be like, oh, she's going to be my default mentor.

Starting point is 00:18:29 We're going to be friendly because we're the only women on this team. Like let's work together. Like, you know, this is going to be my mentor. This person's going to be incredible. Yeah. I'll be under her wing. But oftentimes in these very like male dominated industries, I think just a reality is that a lot of these women in power don't necessarily want to be super helpful.

Starting point is 00:18:51 Like they had a really hard time climbing the ladder in that space. or that industry, and they think that people, you know, who are just starting out should have to do the same. Yeah, I mean, I think that could be the case. And I think a lot of it is a factor of the environment that some of these successful senior women grew up in where it was like there was only one seat at the table for a woman. You had to fight all these other women to get that one seat, even if on a whole, like all of these women were better than all the other men at the table. It doesn't matter. right so I can imagine it can be really hard to shed that mindset that you'd like built up for like 20 30 years of your career yeah I think that's also really important too like in that context it's hard

Starting point is 00:19:37 but if there is a company that you can see actually like supports the women in the company where they have like an employee resource group for women in tech or women in product you can kind of see that the culture is like trying to get these like amazing women to get to like kind of band together to help each other out rather than like you know fighting each other. That's true. I mean it's funny because in the past when Sherey has told me stories about her work experience, I've been like what is this like amazing Disneyland that you work in where you had this like women in tech group, right? Women in products or whatever, this ERG. And they would have these male allies. Allies. Yeah. Who would come and like go out of their way to help you with stuff.

Starting point is 00:20:21 Yes. I'm like, this is, to me, it's unheard of. Like, maybe because I'm a half generation older than Shuri. So, like, that stuff wasn't around. I think it was kind of a utopia in the tech world where, like, a lot of the senior leaders were very, it was just the culture. They were very invested in making it like 50, 50, 50 gender parity in leadership roles and actually release stats of how they were doing year to year because of the pressure from the employees to be like, okay, like, let's take a look across all senior leadership roles, MVP, director, whatever, all these different roles. And what was the breakdown on gender?

Starting point is 00:21:00 And how are we doing this year in engineering, in product, in marketing, et cetera? Yeah. I just think it says a lot that somehow the company had created the environment where a male employee would actively want to help out the ERG because they thought it would be beneficial for their career. Yeah. Like that's so crazy. That's such a good example of like,

Starting point is 00:21:21 incentives and then behaviors. Yes. Right. It was kind of amazing to be like, it's Barbie's world. And we have Ken helping us out. Yeah, for your specific group. Yeah. Okay. So now that we've talked about all the ways you can actually diagnose and identify if you have a toxic boss, we're going to move onto the section where we give you methods so that you can actually navigate the situation. So let's turn back to Harvard Business Reviews Guide to Navigating Toxicity. So what are some of the steps that can take. So number one, first and foremost, diagnose the situation before reacting. These are the things you should ask yourself. Is this a systemic problem or is it personality driven? Or two, is it temporary stress or is it structural culture? Yeah, I like that point because, you know, not everyone's perfect.

Starting point is 00:22:10 I can imagine at one point or another somebody can have a bad day or snap or something like that. But I think the real thing is if it's a recurring behavior, then that lends itself to be like, yeah, no, this boss is toxic. Yeah. When I had a boss or someone that I worked with that had a bad day, it was kind of funny because they're like, oh, they're having a bad day. Like, they're generally very, like, nice and pleasant and sunshiny. And they're just having a bad day. And obviously, you have grace for that. Everyone has bad days.

Starting point is 00:22:37 But I think if it's like the reverse situation where they're like always, you know, toxic or horrible, like, that's not a good situation to be in. Yeah. Like if you're going to work every day with your like chest really tense and like nervous and like not sure what you're going to encounter in terms of your boss, that's a bad sign. That's, yeah, probably toxic. So if it is personality driven mostly from one boss that checks off a lot of the red flags we gave you, your best bet is documentation as you work on your next moves. So what does this look like? This includes getting everything in writing. So what are your deliverables and what are your deadlines, make sure you have those written down and you build visibility outside of your boss, like with anyone that you work with, cross-functional partners, and push to get all top

Starting point is 00:23:24 priorities in writing, asking for specific feedback and saving all relevant emails, Slack messages, team messages to document expectations and their behavior. One thing I'll add to that is that I think a lot of people, especially people who are earlier on in their career, kind of are like, well, if I have a problem with my boss, like, then I'll just go to HR. Like, I have a HR. That's what HR is there for. Wrong. HR is not the white knight that you think it might be, right? Like the point of HR, the entire function of HR in a company, is to serve the company. Right. So like their job is to help and protect the company, not necessarily you as the employee, even though it might seem that way because they're very nice people individually,

Starting point is 00:24:09 but their goals in their job are to protect the company. So I just wouldn't go around thinking or like expecting that HR is going to be the one to like save you from a toxic boss or necessarily help you get out of the situation or even really be like a path of any of any type. Yeah. I think what we're learning here and what we'll share with you are some tips and strategies of ways you can save yourself. Yeah. Like one in three people are, you know, removing themselves from the situation of having a toxic boss. these are different ways that you can save yourself. Like we said, document everything as you're looking for your next move.

Starting point is 00:24:46 And we have some more tips to share. Yeah. So the second part is if you've diagnosed this situation as not necessarily personality driven, but more so systemic, right? So let's say you're in a broader group where or the broader company where you're kind of like, it's not just one toxic boss. It's the culture. It's like everyone is operating in the same way.

Starting point is 00:25:09 then you got to think about next moves, right? You're not just trying to move laterally or move to a different boss within your group. You start to think about an exit opportunity. So that's when you start working on your resume. That's when you start having these coffee chats again. That's when you start reactivating your network so that you can know what your options are.

Starting point is 00:25:29 So as you're looking for your next job and your next role, outside of a toxic boss, outside of a toxic company, here are some things you should look for. So Laslo Bach, who is a prominent HR leader, author and former SVP of People Operations at Google, he wrote a really, really famous book called Work Rules. And what he suggests is that when you're looking for your next job or your next work, that work should be meaningful, humane, centered on people, not bureaucracy or control. Yeah, so one of the big points in that book Work Rules is that Laslo says you should look for

Starting point is 00:26:02 workplaces where employees are trusted, empowered, and treated like partners in the business. So I think that that whole, like, Lasel Bach thing is really interesting and kind of like academic. But what do you do when you're actually looking for this job? Like, what do you actually look out for? So we actually had one of our amazing listeners, Isabel, right in with one of these suggestions. Okay, so Isabel says, I've been through both a very toxic work environment with a manipulative, insecure boss, and a positive, productive work environment with the best, most inspiring boss. what I've learned on how to identify a promising high potential boss, ideally, someone who is not

Starting point is 00:26:40 a first-time manager, founder, CEO, and who has had team members from previous roles follow them to the new role. My last boss, who is the most exceptional leader I've ever encountered, people first, deeply empathetic, empowering, leads by example, both soft and authentic, yet challenges and motivates, has had team members of her team follow her across several different companies now. I believe that clearly shows her team respects, trusts, and believes in her, which are such promising signals. I would look for this factor when considering a new role and vetting a new boss. Absolutely. I love this example because I don't think there's anything wrong if you have like a first time manager in terms of like if you're working a startup, but like there are

Starting point is 00:27:23 greater risks there. Like they might not know exactly what to do, might not have the training or the years of experience. I think it is so telling when people follow their boss from one company to another. So I love this example. Yeah, I could not agree more. So for anyone listening, just do exactly what Isabel said. So we've hit you guys with a ton of examples, but we have one more from this book that has a really important concept. It's by Simon Seneck, and it's called Leaders Eat Last. So basically, it's talking about the idea that great leaders prioritize protecting their people, especially from internal politics, public shaming, and fear-based management. When people feel safe, they want to collaborate, they want to do their best work, and when they

Starting point is 00:28:06 feel unsafe, they self-protect. And that's when, you know, they're focused on other things than creating the best outcomes for the team. And I think my example here is that I've always felt very supported and protected by my managers whenever there's like any like internal politics going on. Or honestly, if someone's senior to me sends me like a mean, even. or like it's like extremely like rude or short or whatever like I've had my managers in the past be like like like CC me I've like told them about it and they're like CC me in I got this and so I've

Starting point is 00:28:38 always felt very protected by my managers in that like they cared about me they cared about my well-being and when things weren't right they were able to step in for me and I think that is an incredible trait where it led me to do my best work where I felt like oh I didn't have to worry about you know this VP of engineering kind of talking about my project in a bad way or whatever because I could then focus on my project and making it better. Your boss is like never speak to me or my son ever again. Yeah, my boss was just like, put me in, put me in. Like I got this. They're always trying to protect me. I mean, I think it's good to hear examples like yours because for people who have experienced toxic boss, toxic environment, toxic company like over and over again, sometimes you can lose hope and

Starting point is 00:29:25 like, is there even a good working environment out there? I know a lot of people who actually think that, like a lot of my friends. And for you, you're providing an example of like, actually there is. Like, I've worked in a really positive environment where my boss did this for me. And like, honestly, if you had not been telling these stories like for year after year, I almost like wouldn't even believe it. Like I would be like, what? Like, there's a boss out there who's like that. That's like almost like unbelievable. Well, I think I don't know if I'm the exception or the rule out there, but like there's this one boss, shout out Albert. I know he watches Tiger Sisters. Shout out Albert. He like remembers all of our birthdays on our team. I know you do that as well. And Albert, he would not only wish us a happy birthday, but like remember to get us like a card and like a virtual card that everyone on the team signs.

Starting point is 00:30:14 And then I think we've also had cake before too and like desserts and stuff. when I hit 73,000 followers on TikTok, I don't know why it was that milestone. Like I hit 73,000. It was like a big deal for me or whatever. And Albert sent some dessert for me to my house. I think he sent me like these little tiny cute little cream puffs. I think there were like, where there's seven in there? I don't know.

Starting point is 00:30:37 He was trying to like do something with the numbers and make it special. For my birthday, he's like sent donuts when we were like in COVID times. It was all so sweet. And I think because of how Albert fostered or really. really wonderful culture on our team. One of my coworkers, Emily, like one day I was having a really bad day and we were in a meeting and she knew I was having like a really tough time during COVID and she like door dashed me coffee because it was just like so in the culture of our team that Albert created where we were looking out for each other and she's like, oh my God, you had a horrible day.

Starting point is 00:31:09 Let me send you your favorite coffee order. It was just so nice. And I think that's very reflective of a good boss. It's really beautiful. A really beautiful. A really beautiful. A really good. wonderful team. And another thing that Albert did really, really well is that he would take blame publicly and give credit publicly. So even if what things were messed up or like, you know, a project didn't go as as planned, like Albert would never publicly shame anyone and he'd be like, it's on me and never be like, it's the specific person on my team who messed up. And I think that is a really great mark of a leader where they're never trying to single out someone to make them look bad and he's able to take the blame publicly. Also, he was like a really great leader that people

Starting point is 00:31:52 trusted anyways so that like even if he did take the fall on something, like they weren't docking him for it. Yeah, he had built up enough like credibility and credit with everyone in the org. Yes. And so I think that's really great whereas like I think toxic bosses shift the blame on on someone. Like they don't want, they throw someone under the bus or they don't want to take the blame. And I think this is really important. give credit publicly too, so that when someone... Good bosses, give credit publicly where something good happens, they're like, this team project was an absolute success. And they're like, it was because of Sherey's leadership on this project. And Albert did that consistently. He would always shine a light on his team members when they did things well. And when things didn't go as

Starting point is 00:32:40 planned, I think he would take the hit, the fall for it. And I think that's a really one noble leader and also just a really noble person. Yeah. I mean, I think it's good to have this, like, positive example. I also think this is a good segue into our final segment, which is how to tell if you're a toxic boss. Okay, so we have a mini exercise for you. What if I'm the drama, am I the toxic boss? So let's flip the script now. And if you're listening to this and thinking, um, am I the drama? Here's what to look out for. So here are the questions you can ask yourself if you're thinking you might be a toxic boss. Do people look nervous around me? 2.

Starting point is 00:33:16 Is turnover high on my team? 3. Are people hesitant to bring me new ideas? 4. Am I micromanaging? 5. Do I correct people publicly often? 6.

Starting point is 00:33:29 Am I reacting emotionally to mistakes that are either made by yourself or made by people on your team? 7. Do I create urgency as a control tactic? And finally, 8. Do I feel threatened by high performers? I want to say very seriously, like as you're going through this checklist, if some of these are applied to you and you're like being very self-reflective, like, I want to applaud you for like taking this very seriously. And also like there are ways to improve. I actually

Starting point is 00:33:58 think this is a very serious moment because there was someone on the broader team that I think was a very toxic teammate, toxic leader. And I was nervous around this person. Like I felt, I felt nervous around them. I felt hesitant to bring new ideas. This person. and publicly shamed people. But I will say they're not a bad person. And they were given feedback by their boss that they were doing these things. They just honestly didn't realize it.

Starting point is 00:34:23 It was kind of in their personality because they grew up in a startup environment. They were very intense. They did tell people that their ideas were stupid in public. And this was a leader. So like it's actually really hurtful when they did that. But they got feedback and they like greatly improved so that they became less toxic.

Starting point is 00:34:40 So I don't think it's like once you're a toxic boss, like you are a narcissist you are you know like a horrible person a sociopath and all this things i don't think that's that's not necessarily all the cases i mean in a lot of the stories those people are and it's kind of hard to fix that but like if you're reflecting me like oh damn i am kind of checking off some of these boxes i'm realizing it like there are ways to like actually really improve and become a better boss um and i saw this hands on with someone on my team that like after they improved i'm like this is i can see all of their benefits of working with them on the team and like it came out way more when they became like less toxic and they realized they were making some people feel

Starting point is 00:35:17 nervous or feel bad but they were really great to work with afterwards. Wow, that is such, that's so inspiring. Yeah. So I'm like, take this section seriously. Yeah. You can improve and you can also improve for the people around you. And for yourself. Like imagine if you're being held back by all these things like how much better you could be. Absolutely. Of a leader. This person was like so held back by themselves just because they didn't realize it. They didn't have the self-awareness. They did call people stupid in public. They did publicly shame.

Starting point is 00:35:47 They cut people off. And like once they were given this feedback, I think they were really able to grow. That's a great story. I think this is like a great, I love ending it on this. Yeah. There is a silver lining here if you do find yourself being toxic. There's a rainbow at the end of the rainstorm. Of the podcast.

Starting point is 00:36:05 Okay. So like Shere was saying, if you listen to this list and you do find that a lot of these ring true for you. This is a good time to sort of pause and reflect and ask yourself a couple questions. So ask yourself, what is it like to work for me? What does it like to work under me? Do people grow when they work under me? Am I emotionally regulated? If I can't emotionally regulate myself, how can I emotionally regulate others and grow an entire team and a business? And so here is your practical reform plan. If you do find that you are the drama. So number one, ask for anonymous feedback. I think that is how the person that I worked with was able to grow. We gave this person a lot

Starting point is 00:36:42 of anonymous feedback. Two, apologize without being defensive. You'll be surprised how far an apology or I'm sorry will go in the workplace. And number three, clarify expectations explicitly. Okay, guys, so this is our conclusion. Toxic bosses exist, but so does career agency. And hopefully you've gotten some really good methods on how to get out of a bad situation from this episode. Yeah, and recently, Gene and I did some field research where we went to the movie and we saw Send Help with Rachel McAdams, which is basically a movie that came out recently about a very toxic boss relationship. I won't give too much away.

Starting point is 00:37:20 But I think in watching that movie, I think some toxic boss relationships are not really fixable. Thank you guys for being with us for this episode. And please let us know in the comments if you have had a toxic boss. And we didn't have a chance to get to all of the submissions through the voice. voicemail. But let us know in the comments what your toxic boss horror story is or what you learn from your toxic boss situation or how you got out of your situation. We are just so curious about you guys and we read every single comment. And it also really helps the rest of the community when you share your own experiences. Thank you guys. We'll see you next time.

Starting point is 00:37:57 Bye. Quick note. So I know a lot of people think that podcasts are just about talking off the cuff. But I think what you don't see is that for Tiger Sisters podcast behind the scenes, There is so much research and cultural curation that goes into every single episode. Yeah, and I feel like you can kind of feel it because in every episode, we have a lot of studies that we reference, a lot of research. And we want to make sure you guys get the signal through all the noise out there. That's why it is so important that you subscribe and follow us on every single platform, whether it's Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you're watching this on. It only takes two seconds to do.

Starting point is 00:38:30 And it's really a simple gesture that has so much impact on helping us build momentum and build this community with you. Welcome to the Tiger Sisters family.

Tiger Sisters - To Anyone Working With A Toxic Boss: How to Deal With It & Move On

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