Tiger Sisters - Trust Issues, Career Fulfillment, and Starting Over

Starting point is 00:00:00 In this episode, we're doing a Q&A, answering all of the mailbag and questions that you guys have sent in, especially as they pertain to friendships and also career from our previous episodes. So we're so excited to dig in here. Let's go. Hi, I'm Gene. And I'm Sheree. And we're the Tiger Sisters. Welcome to our season finale. Season finale. Season two finale. Can't believe we're here. I know. It's gone by so close. quickly. Wow. Yeah. First, we're going to start off with the age-old segment of roses and thorns.

Starting point is 00:00:48 Gene, what is your rose and what is your thorn? Okay, so my rose is that I have gotten into, like, a good exercise routine. And I'm very proud of myself this past week, seven out of seven days, I have, like, moved my body. Either I've gone to the gym and done a gym class, or I played pickleball or I had my tennis lesson or I went to the gym and literally just walked at 3.0 for like almost an hour and like talked to one of my best friends on the phone. So that was my like recovery day yesterday. And this is just like it's been like a goal for so long to just do a consistent like daily movement practice.

Starting point is 00:01:29 I can't believe I just said that but I did. Who is she? I know who am. I feel like I'm one of those like wellness articles. And now I feel like I'm like finally. in the mode of it. In the groove. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:01:41 The funny thing is like starting next week, I have this like crazy travel schedule so I'm going to be out of the groove again. But I think that's okay. Like it's more about like when you can and when it like serves you to like do it as much as possible. So I'm really happy about that and I'm just like feeling just feeling like really good. I love that. I think it also shows too and how you like show up to like you feel better, you know.

Starting point is 00:02:06 Yeah. Like you just feel better in your body. body. Yeah. Like, oh, and the other thing I've noticed is so I wear this garment. And even though I still don't sleep that much, like even if I only sleep six hours, it's still, it says my body battery is like 90%. Isn't that crazy? I'm like, is this thing broken? But I think it's because I've been exercising. I think it's a working out. You sleep deeper. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a thought. I guess while you're traveling next week, maybe a challenge is to like try the hotel gym and just walk there too, even though it's like a different. Yeah. Or maybe like an activity or something or like try to like do stuff. I will be

Starting point is 00:02:42 skeet shooting. Is that cardio? It's a lot of arms. It's a lot of arms, you know. True. Arm workout. Toning. All my all of my reformer Pilates is finally going to come in handy to hold the rifle. What else? Okay. So the thorn is that I kind of am still like in the process of adjusting to like what I feel like is like a new social life sort of. I mean, there's just been so many changes in my life in the past six months. And there's just, it's like a whole shift in paradigm where obviously like suddenly I'm single. I mean, I don't know about suddenly, but like sort of like, yeah, suddenly I'm single for the first time in eight years. and so like all of these sort of like routines that I built up that I'm just like used to doing

Starting point is 00:03:41 and like socializing like with a group that is more used to like you know is more used to like couples I guess and just things are different and so it's not bad but it is an adjustment and I'm still kind of, I feel like working my way through that and like sort of, um, figuring it out. Yeah, figuring it out. And it actually, it has been a good thing that we've been working on sisters together because we've just like thrown ourselves like head first into it. And like, honestly, like we work so much. We work every single weekend. Yeah. And like every single day. And night. Yeah. Like, We work and the fact that like where, you know, at this time and place in our lives where we can actually like live together and work together at the same time, like it's like really intense. But in some ways it's also it's good because I'm so passionate about what we're doing that I've like thrown myself into it.

Starting point is 00:04:47 And I like I like want to work. Like I want to spend my time like building up all these things that we're doing. And I like am so sure about our like long term vision and our goals and. I want to like, I want us to get there as soon as possible. So I don't know. I guess it's, I am grateful that we have this thing that we're working on together. And I have this like amazing outlet. Um, but at the same time, I'm like, maybe I should at some point like rebalance or like bring in more, bring socialization like back in.

Starting point is 00:05:28 But it's okay. I think seasons, there's different seasons for different. things. Like there have been other times where I've been like super social. Yeah. So that was a little long-winded, but I had to get it out there. She's figured out. This is, yeah. In case you guys haven't realized, this is talk therapy turned into a podcast. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Tell me if you guys have ever been in a similar period where you were forced to just be in like a really different state all of a sudden and like had to kind of like work through it. Let me know. Okay, what about you what's your rose and thorn so i would say my rose is that i really enjoy um like planning things

Starting point is 00:06:11 to have things to look forward to and so these are things that haven't happened yet but i guess like the one thing that we just talked about was like the trip to japan happening in may like i like having something on the calendar because then it's like it gets me through and like i don't know i just have something nice and fun to look forward to it's like a psychological thing for me that's like a psychological thing for me. That's like a really big trip coming up right next year. Yeah. With you. With you. Potentially you and your friend. But then also even just like on the much smaller scale like this weekend I have a board game night with my friends that I've like coordinated. Oh not here but at Locklands Place. Yeah. But we are going to his place. I've invited some of my GSP friends to go.

Starting point is 00:06:53 So we're going to do a board game night at my friend's house and that's just like this weekend. And I've planned that. I'm just like yay. I have something to look forward to. And it makes, I guess, what Jean was saying, like, the grind of, like, the work that we're doing, just look easier, too when you know you have, like, outlets of breaks to look forward to. And then on Tuesday, I'm going to the symphony with one of my friends who, well, with one of my new friends. And so, like, that's also, I'm just like, yay, I love having things on the calendar. Also, it's the type A and me. Okay, so now moving on to my thorn.

Starting point is 00:07:24 I would say it's so interesting. Like, it's also kind of, like, work-related. and it's really tough and also amazing that it's just the two of us working together on our entire startup adventure, like including sisters, including this podcast. And it's fun that we have like a balance of each other. But I think it's also really tough too sometimes like when you're like not struggling, but like finding it challenging, you know, when things come up. Like I feel like I have to be like the strong person.

Starting point is 00:07:57 and then other times when I feel like I'm struggling, you have to be the strong person too, or like I have doubts and stuff. So like, yeah, I don't know. That part is really tough when you're a founder because like you don't have like a larger team or even like a boss to tell you what the vision and plan is that you can be like, okay, I can kind of let go. Like someone else is doing the work and driving it forward when like we are the ones driving it forward.

Starting point is 00:08:20 So that's really tough. And I've also like, I think really found it tough too to also like maintain a very very very positive, like, forward thinking, like, I don't know. I just like, it's really hard to be positive sometimes, but I feel like I have to be overly positive when like things are not, like, you know, moving, right? Because I feel like we're moving in that direction. Does that make sense? Because I'm negative.

Starting point is 00:08:48 Or like sometimes when like something happens, I feel like I have to be overly positive to like just maintain the momentum. you know oh like what um like if one of the videos um like if an episode doesn't perform well yeah or if it like if an episode doesn't perform well or something or like yeah and then like i'm i'm pretty down about that too but i try not to let it show as much because like i know i honestly know it's not that big of a deal and we just have to keep going like i truly do believe that but like i am like bummed as well but like i know that it's unproductive to like linger on it especially if you're feeling down on it too.

Starting point is 00:09:28 Well, I was talking to some of my founder friends yesterday, and they were saying, and I think this is true, that it's good to have, like, co-founders so that, like, you guys can spiral at different times. Yeah, I agree with that. That's what my friend said yesterday when I was having coffee with her. It's just like, I had a spiral this week, and then he had a spiral last week,

Starting point is 00:09:46 and, like, we can talk each other out of it. And so I think that's, like, one of the benefits, but also, like, one of the just, like, downsides overall is just like they're spiraling. Yeah, but think about how much worse it would be if it was you by yourself. Oh, for sure. You have to be strong for yourself all the time. Yeah, like being a solo co-founder, or solo founder, it sounds horrible in many, many ways.

Starting point is 00:10:13 Being a solo co-founder is even worse. Believe me. Yeah. Or, well, Billy Fara, watch that episode. No, believe me, because remember for my old startup Outdoor Pass, I did have a co-founder and then we had a terrible, we had a co-founder breakup because I was essentially a solo co-founder for a long time. Yeah, I've heard that the middle ground is actually having three co-founders is really healthy

Starting point is 00:10:41 so that you can have a tie break and it's like never personal in that way. If it's like completely like you have a third person to be like, okay, I got overruled. That was what when I went to my Colombian tech like dinner, one of the guys says that's like, the sweet spot. Maybe. It would really depend on the dynamic of the group because I could see potentially like one person feeling like they're getting like ganged up on all the time if they're always the one that's getting overruled.

Starting point is 00:11:09 It's true. So I don't believe that as like an idiom or like an edict or rule or anything. I don't believe that three people is the sweet spot. I'm pushing back on the head. Take it up with. Beep. B. Brian, you're wrong. Brian, you're so wrong.

Starting point is 00:11:28 Actually, Brian's right probably in his own instance talking about himself. Yeah. Sure. Okay. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to get into our Q&A. Hey guys, quick break to let you know that we now have merch on sisters matcha.com. We have sweatshirts and t-shirts that we designed yourselves. Go check it out.

Starting point is 00:11:47 And please rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. These ratings are so important for the distribution. and survival of Tiger Sisters podcast. Thank you for your support. And we're back. We're back. We're going to get through as many questions as possible. Okay, the first one is for Anna Karate.

Starting point is 00:12:03 Anna, thanks for your question. She said, love the friendship podcast, listen to it today. If you could do a part two, which I'd love to watch, I have a couple of questions. One, how would you deal with a friendship breakup where you lost significant trust in the other person? Two, what if I want to talk it out with her, but I get the vibe that my ex-friend does not want to confront the issue. We're not really on speaking terms at the moment.

Starting point is 00:12:26 Thank you, girls. Oh my gosh. My heart hurts. And, you know, it's just... Yeah. We talked about it in our friendship episode. This is so hard, so I really feel for you, Anna, and it's not easy. And it's, like, very courageous, I think, to want to take this head on.

Starting point is 00:12:43 She's so empathetic. I was going to go in straight with, like, an answer. She wanted to go in with a problem solving. No, I just feel for you. It's really... It's not easy. thank you for your question. And it's even harder when the other person, like, may not be willing to, you know, engage.

Starting point is 00:13:01 Yeah, dude, for me, I think the most important thing that you said is I lost trust. If you've lost trust in a person, it's for a good reason, right? Like, that's not something that you would say kind of willy-nilly. Frivolously. Yeah. So, like, if you've lost trust in a person, for me, write it off. For me, write off. You know.

Starting point is 00:13:23 Like if you're asking the friendship. Oh, it's over? It's over. Like if you, if you feel strongly enough to put it in words that like I have lost trust in words that like I have lost trust in this person. Then I think that that is something that like you can almost never come back from. Whoa. That's so strong of a statement. I think you can come back from losing trust.

Starting point is 00:13:54 If both parties, and it doesn't sound like it's this case right now, but if both parties are willing to work on it, and it's going to take time, it's going to take a lot of hard work, probably tears. Like I think you're able to build back trust, or you're able to try to build back trust. Even if you try, you might not be able to get there, but you need to have two willing parties to do so. And I don't know, I feel like over time,

Starting point is 00:14:21 time, it can be built back. I just think that like if it's to the point where she's saying like I've lost trust in this person. It depends on what happened. That means that like there have been enough like attempts or like bids. Yeah. And like enough effort having put like she's put enough effort in to like get to this point. So like I think I mean I guess to be.

Starting point is 00:14:51 be more prescriptive. Maybe like one thing you could do is a thought exercise for yourself where you kind of like project out the different outcomes where you're like, okay, what is the best case scenario that could come out of this? If like I really want to like push this reconciliation and like I am the one to drive this reconciliation even though she doesn't want to like talk through what actually happened, like sure, I'll go with that and then we'll just like become friends again and I will forgive her for her trespass of my trust, then like kind of like work it out in your head, like, okay, what's the best case scenario? Then also, this is, I think, a cognitive behavioral therapy method or like a derivation of it.

Starting point is 00:15:34 What's the best case scenario that could happen? What's the worst case scenario? And then maybe like what's the most likely scenario? And then based on those three, you can kind of decide like, am I interested in going down this path knowing the range of possible outcomes. That's a really interesting framework to think through. And I guess it's like safer because you're doing it like on your own. It's a thought exercise.

Starting point is 00:16:02 Like it's only within the parameters of your own feelings without involving the other party. And you can kind of like go through the feelings yourself like almost like a dry run of the feelings to see how it makes you feel. And then it's almost like you might get a gut. feeling from going through that exercise and then feel like, you know what, like, I really realize that like it's not this is, the friendship has run its course and it's okay. Or to be like, what am I doing? Like I love this person so much. We have such a deep history and like we could have such a beautiful friendship ahead of us. If only I take this step. The red flag for me is

Starting point is 00:16:44 not so much the loss of trust because I do think that people are able to, you know, people are able to repair. But I think, I mean, it's difficult, but I do think it's possible. I think just the other person avoiding or unwilling to work on it is the bigger red flag for me. It's like I want to know that you're as invested in this as I am. And like it's going to be really hard. And maybe that's why that person's avoiding it. But like if this is going to work, like you have to do hard shit and be as invested if not more. Like both parties need to be giving a hundred percent. It's not like one, it's not 50-50. It's like both need to be giving 100 percent. for it to work out. And so, and I think the other thing to to kind of think through is for the

Starting point is 00:17:26 loss of trust instance, was it something that was circumstantial? Was it something that was situational? Was it something that was like, oh, like parts of what happened were out of this person's control or like it was a, not like act of God, but it was like almost like a like a one time thing? Or is it something that is endemic? Is it something that is like inherent to their personality that they refuse to change or you cannot reasonably expect that they would ever be able to change. So that's like another, I think, important point of consideration. Yeah. I think, like, do you think the loss of trust is going to happen again, basically? Yeah. And that you, you yourself and your gut will know and like trust your gut here. I think our gut is just our instinct.

Starting point is 00:18:17 and it's so much faster than like our cognitive understanding of things. So I would say really trust yourself here. Yeah. That's just like a point I want to touch on is that the older I get, the more I realize that the times where I've ignored my gut was like to my peril. Like there are times when like, you know when you like meet someone and they seem like perfectly nice and they're so bubbly and like and you're like, oh like what? Why don't I feel, why does this person make me feel so uncomfortable?

Starting point is 00:18:50 Like, even, like, why do I leave this interaction feeling just so uncomfortable inside? Even though on the surface, like, everything seems good, that's your gut, right? That's your gut telling you something is not right or that there's like, I don't know, like caution. Like, there's like, yeah. There's like evil spirits around or something. Yeah. So yeah, it's, I feel like the earlier you can learn to trust your gut, the better. True.

Starting point is 00:19:24 All right. Hope that was helpful. Love you, Anna. So our next mailbag is around friendship. Iman asks how to make friends in your late 20s and early 30s, specifically the different perspectives between Jean and me because of our age gap. Thanks, Amman, for your question. Thanks, Iman.

Starting point is 00:19:42 Okay, so I actually have been experiencing this recently, not just myself, but with my girlfriends, who it's interesting. Like a few of them have told me that they have either like outgrown old friend groups or they've like moved to a new city and want to like make new friends or they're entering a new phase in life. Like at my age, a lot of my friends are new moms or about to be. But one method that I've seen is to act. kind of like tell your existing friends or like tell people that you know like, oh, I'm looking to like make friends that are like this, like kind of just like putting it out there.

Starting point is 00:20:24 Manifesting. Yeah. And in that instance, I've actually like connected some of my friends with each other who are like very recent moms and like about to give birth moms. And like I feel like that's been very productive. I feel like people want to help and people want to connect you when you're like putting it out there in a genuine way. Well, they're also in a very similar stage in life where like one person can help the other person in a very personal matter. Yeah, I think generally that might be like the crux of it is that like as you enter new stages in life or like as you have new interests or as you start a new career, like being.

Starting point is 00:21:10 proactive about like seeking people with like like minded or similar instances yeah and then I guess my advice like being in my late 20s or like something that I found that works is like being in spaces like Jean said where people have similar interests or like similar I guess like experiences that they want to have together like business school is just a major one where it's like I entered into a two-year program with other people who wanted to get a similar experience as me. And that was so rich for cultivating friendships. And then outside of that, too, I think a lot of it is activity-based. Like, what are some of the activities that you enjoy doing? And it could be like a pottery class, or it could be even like a networking event too when you're bringing people who want to talk about

Starting point is 00:21:59 the same thing together. And like really fruitful conversations happen from there. But like seeking out spaces where you can find people who have similar interests as you. And I will say the other part about making friends that I feel like is not talked about as much is that if you do kind of extend a bid for friendship and it's not like returned, a lot of times it's not personal. I think for dating, people have called it like the taxi cab theory where it's like either your light is on, you're accepting passengers or no, you already have a passenger. right? Like some people are available today and some people are just not available to have like

Starting point is 00:22:40 any sort of real relationship. And it's the same thing for friendships, right? Like some people are in a time and space in their life where they're very open to friendships, especially making new friends. And then other people just don't have the bandwidth or the capacity to do that. And it actually has nothing to do with you in that instance. Right. So it's kind of just like you have to put enough bids out there to find someone else who. is in that same mind space as you and interested and excited to make friends at that point in their life. Yeah. So that's that's the other thing. Don't be discouraged and don't take it personally if you're like kind of trying to like initiate new friendships with people and it's not being

Starting point is 00:23:21 reciprocated right away. It just, it could be just that their their light is not on, right? They're not seeking friends at the moment. Yeah. I really like that analogy. Thank you. We're going to take a quick break. And then when we come back, we're going to go into our second section of Q&A, which is all about careers and business school. Hey, everyone, quick break to share something special, Sisters Macha. We've launched limited batches of ceremonial grade, single estate, single cultivar, matcha, straight from the family farm Shari worked on in Japan. It's pure, authentic, and crafted with intention. Head to sisters matcha.com to grab yours before it sells out. Make matcha your daily ritual for lasting energy and focus. So our next question on career.

Starting point is 00:24:02 is from hey it's Vincent. Hey Vincent. Hey. He says what is the level of fulfillment or impact you feel you have before and after your corporate roles? Should I start? Yeah, go for it. Okay. It's actually really it's it's a really insightful question. So thank you for your question genuinely because it's making me like really think and reflect. So I think the level of what's the much and level of fulfillment. Yeah. It's interesting because I think a lot of people would just jump into kind of like trashing the corporate world because there are so many things that are super draining about

Starting point is 00:24:43 it, not limited to, but including like the amount of sort of politicking that you have to do. And if you're a person that is like just really cares about like your work and you like really want to just build and like create impact and like ship things and like see things like live in the world and that's what you're. driven by, it can be really exhausting, frustrating to be in a corporate role. So I would say that is kind of like the downside of it. But to give like a fair and full view, one thing that was very fulfilling in corporate was the amount of like influence you could have. Because she's power hungry. But like seriously, like when you're in a larger corporation, like the things.

Starting point is 00:25:32 that I was doing, like I was, you know, leading mergers and acquisitions at the, you know, to the tune of like hundreds of millions of dollars. Like I was the one that was like influencing and ultimately like driving those decisions. And that's obviously not something like between Shari and I, like the sister sister's corporation, we're not anywhere near running hundreds of millions of dollars of M&A yet. you know, hopefully the plan is to get there, but, but that's not something that like, so like, if you're thinking about like, there's different ways to like define fulfillment, right? Like, what drives you? Like, are you the one that wants to make, like, decisions that are kind of like

Starting point is 00:26:15 on that sort of level? And like, is that something that's, like, really important to you? And is that how you define like fulfillment? Or is it more so like being able to be as in control of, your destiny as possible and seeing like, I would say the flip side of it, the fulfillment level of entrepreneurship is that like every single thing that I do, every single thing that Sheree does has an incredible amount of impact because it's just the two of us. Yeah. So like by definition, like I equal 50% of the impact of this company and you equal 50%. So like even though the like dollar value of it is not like moving. a, you know, multi-billion dollar company, it's still, like, the level or the percentage of

Starting point is 00:27:04 impact is much higher. Yeah. It's like, it's like a fractions or something. It's like, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, it's like having more ownership over a smaller pie versus having more ownership over a much, much larger pie. Or less ownership over a larger pie.

Starting point is 00:27:22 Sorry, yeah. Less ownership over a much, much larger pie. Yeah. I mean, I, that really. really characterizes it well. I think it goes back to just like what is fulfillment for you. Like Jean and I can only talk about what is fulfilling for us. But like people find different things fulfilling. So like startup life might not be for everyone because they don't find it fulfilling. But I think what's for me, it's way more fulfilling than the corporate world. Although I loved my time

Starting point is 00:27:53 working at LinkedIn and in big tech and then also in venture capital. There's like Jean said, there's so many pros in in that like sector in that sphere but it's just so different what I found is like working on our own thing my own thing it's like I don't mind working late I don't mind waking up early to do it and because like jean and I have the discipline and the excitement around this that like we're able to execute it at a faster speed um I'm I think like I'm at my core am a builder. Like if you were able to characterize like kind of you, as you did before,

Starting point is 00:28:31 like I really enjoy building things and making things and putting things out there. That could be like by ourselves or with a larger team. What's another archetype aside from builder? Manager. Oh. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:28:45 Like I see versus manager work in my mind. That's what you're saying. Yeah. Okay. Like I really enjoy building. I think the influencing and like managing people and like hurting cats and politicking and stuff, like that is a different set of skills.

Starting point is 00:29:00 And I think people are good at it. But like, I just really enjoy, like, doing. Yeah, I think it's the computer scientist. The engineer inside her. The computer scientist, the builder. Don't you call yourself a computer engineer? Yeah. Well, no.

Starting point is 00:29:15 Never engineered any computers. She's an engineer. But yeah, so that part, because I'm able to build much more build, aka release content, build her business. and have more ownership around it. It's building. It's building because I'm able to do that day in and day out. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:29:31 It's like way more fulfilling rather than like having to write a PRD or a spec about building or writing a strategy about the potential path that you could move in in order to build towards the goal that is the three year plan. Like you know what I mean? You're like when you're in corporate. Yes. There's like so many layers of a. abstraction that you can only, in your specific role, like you can only pierce so many layers.

Starting point is 00:30:04 Well, I also think that is one of my strengths, too, is that I am such, I'm a person so prone to action that it was very, like, frustrating for me when, like, we couldn't build fast enough or, like, there were so many other layers. She was like, let me call this myself. She's like, let me get and get. I was like, let her cook. No, it wasn't even the engineers, actually. It was just more so like.

Starting point is 00:30:27 Yeah, of course not. The layers of bureaucracy. I would never hate on an engineer. I've had a big tech company. You know, where like you needed approvals. You need the design. You need design review. You needed like whatever that I was just like, oh my God, this is just taking forever to do.

Starting point is 00:30:43 Whereas like now we're doing all of it and we are doing our own design reviews. Yeah. It just feels so much better that we can release stuff. And maybe it's not like at the level of like, you know, LinkedIn design. What's it called? Quality bar? Or what's it called? When it's like a philosophy.

Starting point is 00:31:04 Paradigm. Yeah. It doesn't pass like LinkedIn's design paradigm that they've like, you know, spent like three years making sure there's brand consistency across all the different business lines. Okay. Yes. But like that sort of like thinking is already embedded in us. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:31:17 Like you know fully like LinkedIn design paradigm. I'm like fully ensconced and like Snapchat and like, you know, whatever. Design principles. Yeah. Design principles. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, I think the other thing is like we trust each other a lot. So that's why we don't need to do so many like design reviews or like there's just. Yeah, there's less layers of approval because it's just the two of us. And like 90% of the time we're like, yeah, that looks good. Yeah. And like I am pretty opinionated when it comes to some things. But like other things I feel like I'm pretty easy going about too. Like I trust you to like. choose the fonts. I trust you. Like, you have a good design.

Starting point is 00:31:59 Guys, I get to choose the font. She gets to choose the font. Wait, what? She's, wait, I'm like, so important. Yeah. But you know, like, kind of like that stuff? Like, you'll choose and then, like, we'll go through, like, the final two. But, like, yeah. We kind of just, like, kind of talk through it together. There is a lot of trust. A lot of things said and unsaid between us that, like, it just works. It's kind of beautiful. What's unsaid? I already said in the beginning of the podcast. When you spiral and I feel like I

Starting point is 00:32:27 to be strong. Could it be me? Spirals too strong of a word. It's not exactly spiral. But yeah. So I feel way more fulfilled from doing this stuff. I think there's also just like so much bureaucracy and like meeting times. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:45 For that really drained me at big companies. We're just like why. Like sometimes I would leave a meeting and the people are fantastic for the most part. But sometimes you'd be like, did this really need to be a meeting? Like this was, you know, you know that feeling? Yikes. It feels like just like a waste of time. And I hate wasted time.

Starting point is 00:33:02 Guys, don't you dare waste her time. She'll cut you. You know? Yeah, but I will say still, like, okay, to paint a full fair picture, like, buyer beware, there are elements of being an entrepreneur that are like hearkening back to what she said at the very beginning. Like, every single thing is much more felt, right? Like you can't just be like, if something doesn't work out, you can't.

Starting point is 00:33:25 be like, well, it wasn't my fault. It was because the, like, U.S. designer didn't want to take my feedback on X, Y, Z, right? Or it's like, well, it's just, it didn't get approved by, you know, the, the CFO. Like, you can't, everything. There's no blame. Yeah. Or there's no. It's like you, yeah, you're, you're everything.

Starting point is 00:33:45 So it's like just the flip side of what I was saying before is that, like, you get to have massive control, but then you are. The sole point of failure. And success. Yeah. You're like radically, what is it called? Radically responsible? Radical ownership.

Starting point is 00:34:04 That's what people say. Do they? Don't they call it? Don't they say radical candor? Yes, but then it's like radical ownership. Guys, radical ownership. You heard of here for it. Radical candor by Kim Scott.

Starting point is 00:34:16 Radical ownership, TM, Gene Lou. Well, it's also the idea. One of the reasons why I think it works well is because one of, I embody radical ownership in the like act like an owner radical ownership well I think it's so important I do not liking I do not like working with people who pass the book that is just the most like I it that's like if I'm hiring for someone like I need to filter out people she's looking for radical ownership yeah like you're an owner if if you see a problem it's like up to you to figure it out don't be like oh like I don't know how to do it they can do it like no figure it out yeah I expect

Starting point is 00:34:57 that like that type of personality and mindset is like actually I think quite rare um especially in big tech companies I think it's much more common in startups yeah I think I've always worked at tech companies that operated like startups like I've mentioned before Zinga was the first tech company I worked at and the company motto was be your own CEO like how insane is that yeah be your own CEO like literally every single person so like it can kind of lead to anarchy but it also is it's radical ownership. Like there's no other, there's no other way. I think you, I saw radical ownership with a lot of PMs that I worked with because like that was like the nature of their job. You have to own something. Yeah. But like some of the best engineers that I worked with also adopted that. But then there's also,

Starting point is 00:35:44 totally. But there's also tons of PMs and like like engineers as well who are just like, yeah, not my problem. And I'm just like. Yeah. Hello? Yeah. So, so anyway, it's also like if that's what you're looking for. Like if you want an environment where sometimes you can be like not my problem, then you will be better served and you will find like a corporate life more fulfilling. And you can also have different phases, right? Like you will go through different phases in life. True. You need to be in a point in your life where you can succeed where you're set up, where you're set up to succeed in entrepreneurship. This is a sidebar, but I talk to one of my, are like seventh sidebar in answering this question.

Starting point is 00:36:28 I talked to one of my friends who at the Columbia in tech alum dinner. Guys, why does she keep pushing Columbia in tech? So awkward. Are you getting paid? No, this is not. This is free advertising. But actually, it's not even advertising. It's only for Columbia alums.

Starting point is 00:36:44 Anyways, I was talking to it. And he's one of the co-founders. And he was saying that whenever he's hiring for someone, that like since it's such a small, lean, scrappy startup, and that's like their mentality and culture, that if any of the candidates ask about work-life balance, it usually won't work out, which is like, he's just like, I understand that's not fair. Maybe they're asking because like they're curious, whatever, but like usually like, you know, we hire them and then three months in just like they're not working as hard as like we want them to or expect them to. But he's just like, honestly, as a founder, I've been working

Starting point is 00:37:18 a hundred hour weeks for the last three years. Don't ask me about work life balance. Like if you want to come work at a startup, you know it's going to be a grind. like you have to be in it. But like that was the perspective of one of the co-founders when he's hiring someone. And I'm like, that's harsh. But I get it. I see it, you know. But like.

Starting point is 00:37:34 Yeah. But he's just like now he's like, I work weekends and I've worked weekends for the last three years. Now none of my employees work weekends because we've gotten to that stage. But he's like, that's crazy to me. Yeah. He's just a crazy founder. But like that's the energy that he brings. Honestly, like maybe I'm so like red pill, blue pill or whatever.

Starting point is 00:37:52 I don't think that's crazy at all. Like that's been the mindset and that's been... Wait, what is the red pill, blue pill? I know that's a matrix reference, but how does that work here? It's just like, I think it means like when you just like drink the Kool-Aid. Like you just accept something as truth like holistically without even like questioning it. And that's just your reality. Correct me if I'm wrong, guys.

Starting point is 00:38:14 But I think that's just my default way of thinking because I've always been in companies where that's been the expectation. like Goldman Sachs, Zinga, Snap. Snap. Like, at every single one of those places, I have worked in the office, like, way past midnight. You should work on Microsoft. You should go somewhere. I know. Go somewhere cushy where they'll respect you and worship you for the 40-hour work week you're putting in.

Starting point is 00:38:44 Yeah. But, like, at every single one of those places, I've worked in the office way past midnight to, like, 2 a.m., 3 a.m. like so I guess am I I I feel like I'm having that like Kim Kardashian moment where you're like people don't even work anymore nobody wants to put in hard work but that is kind of what people who are like older at like investment banks say about the analysts yeah although you don't want them to on the live either yeah that's a whole other conversation actually we wanted to have she wants to talk about this topic I'm like why I don't know let let us know if you guys are interested in that topic. Well, the topic being like really intense

Starting point is 00:39:24 cultures, like work cultures and especially in finance where they're pushing a lot of the analysts and analysts are having health problems and even like mental health problems, obviously. Yeah. So I think that's worth a discussion because people aren't talking about it. Yeah. And I'm just like, this should probably be discussed. I do have a lot of, I do have a lot of war stories when it comes to that. Hey, kids, you want to see these scars? Not even myself, but like my co-workers and my friends as well. So this is our last and final question.

Starting point is 00:39:57 Yes. Okay. So promote Arun asks, hey, Sheree and Jean. I think you mean Gene and Shri. Mm, Shari and Jean. Love your content. Keep them coming. Want to know what your view is of the MBA, given the current economy with regard to jobs.

Starting point is 00:40:13 Noticing a few of my friends doing MBA ending up in roles that doesn't really reflect their full potential. So I was wondering if it's a short-term thing or a long-term thing. And if you guys do have time, would love if you can share your thoughts on this. Thanks in advance. Also, thank you for this question. This came from one of our videos from season one. And so, like we said, we take all the mailbag questions. We take all the questions you guys have and put them in our mailbag.

Starting point is 00:40:41 So this was from our recent episode on Talk to Anyone. So thank you so much for your question. Thanks. In general, going to business school is a very long-term play. I'll put it into like a couple of different like buckets. But the first one is like going to business school, like beyond any like career jumps. And I know that's kind of what you're asking about. But like it's a life experience that you'll have for the rest of your life and career.

Starting point is 00:41:07 And so I think it's just like two years that you go in and you learn a bunch of stuff. You meet a bunch of people. And you never know where those experiences will take. you and the people that you meet. Like, Gene and I are likely going to work with one of my MBA classmates on some of the sisters' merchandise that we're putting out. So, like, that was just, like, such a random and wonderful connection to have. Like, I didn't know that was going to happen going into the business school experience.

Starting point is 00:41:33 And had I not gone to business school, like that connection likely would not have formed in that way. You will see the effects of business school in the very long term and perhaps in the near term. But it really depends on the macroeconomic conditions that you've got. The fullness of time. Yes. But like in the near term, I think right now in like 2024, 2025, there's like a lot of softness in hiring. Like there's way more people who are looking for jobs than there are jobs available,

Starting point is 00:41:59 which is pretty different from like 2021, especially in the tech sector. And so like because of that, like I think a lot of people graduating are not getting the jobs in finance, tech, consulting. And there's a lot more entrepreneurship, which I think is one of the benefits. coming out of one of these like softer periods for hiring. So it really depends on the environment that you graduate into in the near term, but I think it's definitely a long-term play. I will say two things.

Starting point is 00:42:27 So I would push back a little bit or like at least qualify her statement that it's a long-term play because I think it does depend on what type of business school you go to. If you go and like your reasons for going into business school. So some people go into business school specifically. to pivot into a new career. Right? So like for them, it is still, I guess, there's like long-term benefits and it's a long-term play,

Starting point is 00:42:54 but I understand that you are doing it specifically for a discrete short-term outcome. So that is, you know, a little bit of qualification there. And then the other thing I'll say is that I actually think the best time to go to business school is when the economy is soft because there's actually less opportunity cost. Yeah, because there's less opportunity costs for being in school. As opposed to, like, I feel like the fervor of like 2020, 2021, like when it was like a hiring frenzy and people raising money for their startups. And people were just getting like insane job offers and like hopping job to job. Like that's actually a time where you do want to be in the job market as opposed to if it's not a buyer's market, like it's better to be off the market.

Starting point is 00:43:45 Yeah. And if you're off the market, you're off the market for two years, which is great, because then you can be a student again and gain that life experience where it's the lower opportunity cost. And you're building up the skills. You're not just like off the market, like, you know, convalescing. You're off the market, but building up the skills to rejoin the market at a higher level. Yeah. Also another qualification to your qualification to my qualification is that I do get a lot of... She learned the word qualification just now. Is that what you said? Yeah. Thank you guys so much for tuning in to this episode of Tiger Sisters. We are so happy that you've been here with us this entire season and can't wait for season three. Yeah. And thanks for growing with us, for learning with us. I feel like even for myself, nobody asked, but I feel like I'm like way more comfortable about like being open and like expressing my full opinion.

Starting point is 00:44:44 and it's it's really it's really fun and like part of the reason why I do it is because I feel like you guys have created a really safe space and a very like encouraging and warm welcome community where I feel I feel positive about sharing sharing and being more fully myself for the benefit of other people yes so yeah please continue to like comment and subscribe. And on Spotify, please give us five stars so more people can discover us. Yes. Thanks so much. And see you in season three. Bye.

Tiger Sisters - Trust Issues, Career Fulfillment, and Starting Over

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