Tiger Sisters - We interviewed Devil Wears Prada in real life

Starting point is 00:00:00 It's not talked about enough. My name's Leah Wire, and I am the president of the beauty style and entertainment brands at Dot Dash Meredith. So those are people, entertainment weekly, in style, birdie, brides, people in Español. That's how you can show up unemotionally in a room and get it done. But also, as a woman, we deal with biology that is in competition with our career growth sometimes. There's something else. I have to prioritize other than the money. I have to feel fulfilled.

Starting point is 00:00:30 really hard to just be completely unemotional and fix it, right? So that's this side of it. The underbelly of it is that you go to your work wives, you go to your husband, you go to your friends, you're raging, right? I'm so sorry. No, this is, I wish I had a tissue. You don't have a tissue, right? Loads, rounds and rounds and rounds of IVF. Couldn't get pregnant, couldn't get pregnant. Those were like dark days. I wanted something that I like couldn't make happen. The advice to the younger, herself is like, hi everyone. Welcome to the Tiger Sisters podcast where we talk about money, power, and love. I'm your host, Cherie, I'm your host, Jean, and we're the Tiger Sisters. My sister, Jean, is a Harvard MBA, a former head of product at Snapchat with over 50 AI

Starting point is 00:01:31 patents, and she never talks about them, so it's my job to brag about her. She started her career out in finance at Goldman Sachs, transitioned her career into the tech world, and now we have this podcast together. My sister Cherie is a Stanford MBA, a former senior product manager at LinkedIn, who has experienced navigating both the worlds of tech and venture capital. And she's also a long-standing creator with hundreds of millions of views across YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn, etc. We started this podcast together to help people reach their full power in both their career and personal lives. Guys, I am so excited to welcome our guest on her podcast, Leah Wire. She's an absolute icon, my girl crush, and also my role model. Leo Wire is not just a media executive. She's an

Starting point is 00:02:18 absolute force. She's the president of people in style, entertainment weekly, birdie, brides, and so much more. I mean, she basically runs half of the media empires that you grew up with. So this episode, we talk about how to navigate the sticky politics at work, how to build real allies, and how to lead even when the stakes are sky high, especially when your emotions can be so mixed up into both work and life altogether. Obviously, Leah is a very high-powered media executive, but she also shares some of the most vulnerable parts of her personal journey. We go there. From finding partnership in love and life to her very real fertility struggles, we felt so seen during this episode, and I just know you guys will too. So let's get into it. Here's our

Starting point is 00:03:06 amazing conversation with Leah Wire. Hey guys, quick break to let you know that we now have merch on SistersMacha.com. We have sweatshirts and t-shirts that we designed yourselves. Go check it out. And please rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. These ratings are so important for the distribution and survival of Tiger Sisters Podcast. Thank you for your support. Hi, Leah. Hi. We're so excited that you're here. Could you please introduce yourself to the audience in your own words? Sure. So my name is Leah Wire, and I am the president of the beauty style and entertainment brands at Dot Dash Meredith. So those are people, Entertainment Weekly, in style, birdie, brides, people in Español. Wow. An iconic list. It keeps going. Incredible. He's going. It can't go.

Starting point is 00:03:54 No more additions. We're good. Leah, I feel like a misconception that a lot of people have is that beauty editors just spend their whole day like playing with lip gloss or something like that. But in reality, even when you were at Cosmo, you were in charge of basically genera. You were in charge of basically generating the majority of revenue for the business. So when was the moment where you kind of realized like, oh, shit, like, I am a really powerful business woman? It was never lost on me that there was a business role to play as a beauty editor. Now, you had the creative side of being a beauty editor, which was you had a blank slate of pages every month that you had to fill. You had to create a direct feature or something that you were doing on set. So it was all this right brain

Starting point is 00:04:42 stuff that happened. But it was very clear from the start. And I had first been hired as the beauty and style editor for Health Magazine, which didn't, you don't think that did a lot of beauty, but we actually did do a lot of sort of wellness beauty before it was really a trend. And it was a lot of skin, a lot of science. And I loved that because the first 10 years of being a beauty editor, I was at all these different wellness magazines. So it's at Health Magazine and Self Magazine, fitness magazine. And so you had like, you learned how to be like a real reporter, how to respect science, how to read studies, all of this stuff that was, that made the stories really meaty and interesting. You had to balance the business side of being a beauty editor, which meant being super

Starting point is 00:05:28 aware of who your advertisers were and really meant like paying attention to what they were launching. And you had to have this dance of like, okay, so advertiser X was launching something that that would be interesting to your readers. That's what you had to focus on. Like what's the hook for my readers? And you just started like with every magazine, it was a different way of doing that business. It was really like up the ante when I got to Cosmo because Beauty drove so much of Cosmo's revenue. And that, I think, was the moment where I was like, wow, I almost equally report in to the editor-in-chief as I do to the publisher. Constantly on sales calls with your sales team, with your publisher, you're in the room with these incredibly important and brilliant CMOs

Starting point is 00:06:18 who are asking you to suggest ideas to them for their business that would work for your readership. And so you start to develop this marketing skill. It was just a different way of doing the business side of being a beauty editor. And that I think really happened when I got to Cosmo. So that was maybe like 10 years into my career. Like I'm just imagining being in that role. And the amount of kind of like, I guess like finesse and also strategy that you have to have is I can just imagine it's like very high level. Because you have so many stakeholders.

Starting point is 00:06:52 Yes. And like every decision that you make results in. like kind of more or less revenue for your business, for their business, for your interest for your readership. Yes. It's very high risk because the advertisers at Cosmo was a mass brand. I mean, it still is. So it's very much appealing to not just the coasts, right?

Starting point is 00:07:13 Like there were fashion and style magazines that are really appealing to the coast, different type of reader, different type of advertiser. Yeah. When you have a brand like Cosmo, even a brand like Pee, people, very middle of America, very just sort of everyday person, those advertisers are like the money bags, like P&G, Unilever, L'Oreal, like all of these brands. And so to be in the room with these type of people, learn how to pitch an idea, learn how to craft it in your mind in the moment, because usually those things are coming up in a brainstorming session that's live.

Starting point is 00:07:51 You don't really have a ton of time to prepare for it. And they want that. Like, they want you in the room listening, this is my objective, how does it work for your reader? And you have to just do it quick. And so it became very obvious to me that if I could get really good at this, I could have a really long-lasting career because it's not just the creative ideas, which are important, but the creative ideas really, you can create an idea that works in print, that also works in digital, that also works in social, or that works. in an app. But they're really just nuances of each other in some way. The stakes are always changing in the world of marketing. Everything is a new thing, a different thing, a shiny thing, like the next

Starting point is 00:08:38 thing. And that's the piece that you had to really pay attention to. Like how's the world changing? Like what do they want now? What's a new, new thing? These big companies want a first to market moment. They don't want a recycled idea that you did with somebody last month. They want something new and fresh. And so you're just constantly creating. I knew that if I could get good at that, that it would have a long lasting career. Yeah. I love that.

Starting point is 00:09:03 I love that because I can tell that this role uses so many different parts of your brain. It's like obviously like very creative. But then you're also a connector between your readership, the audience and these massive brands and trying to like bridge that connection. Like what do they want and how can I best serve them in that way? Yeah. Yeah. you almost have to be as much of an expert about your reader as you are about your partner or potential partner sitting across the table from you. You have to know what they want for their customer

Starting point is 00:09:38 and how that can be as important to your reader as it is for them to achieve for their customer. That's like the magical moment that happens when you can do that and you can hit that. I mean, there's like three or four moments of my career where I was like, I nailed it. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, where you were like, wow, that was like really good. Yeah. So, you know, when that happens, it's like you sort of get addicted to that feeling. And I really did get addicted to that.

Starting point is 00:10:09 That was the thing that I just wanted to do for as long as I could possibly do it. I love that. And you also met Holly at Cosmo. Is that where your guys' story started? And then for context, that is our mutual friend who introduced us to Leah. Yes. And so Holly came into my life. I think maybe it was 2012 or 13.

Starting point is 00:10:32 Joanna Coles was the editor-in-chief of Cosmo at the time. She had tapped Holly, who, I mean, Holly has an incredible career. She was in movies. She did so many things. And at the time, I think she was in the corporate side of Hearst. And Joanna tapped her to be really her chief of staff. and also head up all of the comms for the brand. And at the time, the brand was changing so much because Joanna just had a totally different

Starting point is 00:11:00 point of view that she wanted just with a megaphone out to the ad community, out to the media market. And so Holly was tapped to do that. And we just really hit it off in the very beginning. And now, I mean, we call each other twin because we're just like, we just feel like we're sisters in a lot of ways. And that's the, I think, a really special thing that happens over time when you work with women especially is like you become, you sort of transcend just as work partners and you become like life partners in a lot of ways. We kind of want to dig into

Starting point is 00:11:37 that a little bit more. Shout out to Holly. Thank you so much for introducing us to Leah. But I mean, you've said previously like work wives can solve like world peace. Yeah. Create world peace. I say that all the time. It's true. Yeah. I mean, work wives and the power of female friendship is like so important for our career. If you can find a work wife and also just like as career blends into life.

Starting point is 00:12:01 Like can you talk a little bit more about just like the importance of having a work life? Yeah. I mean, I think first of all, these are people that men or women, you're spending the bulk of your day, the bulk of your life with your work family. Some families are super dysfunctional and making those relationships at work even more important because at that point then they turn into like your survival mechanism, right? Like when you're working at a place that is, I mean, every place has tough times. But when you're working at a place that over time becomes a little more tricky to manage where it's sort of infringing on your life. life in some way where it's harder to create a boundary, whatever. Your mental health.

Starting point is 00:12:47 Your mental health. Like that is where you need, I think, women in particular to confide in, to be able to cry with, to be able to just vent and be real with. Because if you're not able to have that outlet, how do you sort of get through those moments together? It's harder. I mean, it's, I think it was for a long time, people just expected that you like stiff upper lip did.

Starting point is 00:13:11 You were like, you know, I can. that is not good for any of us. And I think having those people that you can be real with who you can trust with, oh, I'm feeling this way right now. I'm so frustrated by, you know, my boss or whatever, it can help you just like flow into the next stage of less frustration instead of just holding it in and being like resentful and then just being like, oh, I can't work here anymore. Right. Like, yes. It's never, it's usually not ever resolved by like jumping the ship and going somewhere else. Like you're going to find the same frustrations.

Starting point is 00:13:48 Is that? I relate to this. Hit a nerve. So strongly. Okay. I've had the privilege of having, I think, like two workwives in my life. And the first one, one of my best friends still to this day, Maya, we worked together at Zinga. And there were times when both of us were like, I'm about to rage quit.

Starting point is 00:14:08 right this second. Yes. And we would, the two of us would go on a walk together and like the sole purpose of the walk was to vent to each other and then give each other like a three minute long hug. Oh, I love that. That's so sweet. Yeah. Like she, and she gives the best hugs. You know what I mean. I love that. Like just that kind of like connection and being able to like share with your work wife what's going on. They understand you. Like they have the context. Yeah. A level of empathy. Yes. Because only they know what you're feeling. My husband knows all. a lot about my business, knows a lot about the people I work with. But there are some weeks where, and I work at a very mentally sound company. Like, it's not toxic. It's not crazy. I mean,

Starting point is 00:14:50 I've sort of found, finally found a place that appeals to me in that way and is good for my mental health in a lot of ways. But there are just weeks that are really, really hard. And if I take that home to my husband, he gets it, but he doesn't get it. Like my girls at work get it. Like Holly, you're in it with you. My friend Meredith, my friend Melissa, my friend Joe, like we are in it together. Now, we've also, every single one of those people, minus one, we've worked, we've worked together since Cosmo. So we've all like, moved together and like now have this like long, decades long relationship, it's amazing because you already know what the other person is thinking. You can like, you speak shorthand. I'm sure for the people around us who don't have that. They're like,

Starting point is 00:15:42 you guys are crazy. Can you fill us in on what's going on? Yeah. But you do, there are advantages to having those like very long term friendships. Yeah. And they really are like therapists in your life that can get you through moments and get you to the other side. So that, you know, I joke sometimes with my therapist, like, oh my God, I'm having one of these weeks where I'm like, I'm going to hit the eject button and that's it, right? Like, I just got to go. And she's like, you got to like, go take a walk with a friend. Go take a three minute hug. Like, those moments are actually really crucial. And then the other thing that I think you can do with women that is a little harder to do with men, maybe impossible to do with most men, is that you can be grateful with your whole heart to those women.

Starting point is 00:16:26 Like, I can't tell you how many times a week I'm texting or slacking or just in person being like, I love you so much. Like, thank you so much for being in this with me. Like, you can't do that to a guy for the most part. I mean, maybe some guys, but like, not really. And so these are people who, like, you can be fully open with and fully grateful to, which it's a different way of leading. It's a different way of walking together.

Starting point is 00:16:55 It's just a different way to trust each other. And that is really important, I think. Yeah. That's so well said. In some ways, it really transcends just the career or like professional aspect, too, when you really trust someone that you've been working with for like a decade. It's just like we not only know each other in the professional context, but you've been with me through a lot of personal milestones too.

Starting point is 00:17:19 Yes. And you can be truthful with that person. I mean, we're going through a really big project right now. And like I might disagree with the press plan or I might disagree with the way the press release was written or like whatever it is. And it's easier to just say, like, I love you so much. But like there's just this one thing that I really think we have to just sit on for a minute. It comes from a, it's a different way of approaching it than someone being like, oh, that's terrible. Like go change it. And it doesn't make that person want to be on your team or like get to a middle ground. And so there are huge advantages, I think, to having the work wife relationship. And then even the people. who aren't maybe your wife, but like in it with you, they see that type of leadership. They respect that type of leadership. You trickle that down in some way and it just makes for a much more collaborative environment. Yeah. That's a great piece of like wisdom. It's just different. I mean, it's a different, it's a different vibe now than it was even 10 years ago, like where sometimes

Starting point is 00:18:18 women, I think in that time period, they had, they felt like they had to almost like be like men in a way. They had to feel like be tough. They had to, you know, put out like a, I don't know if the aggression is the word, but it's like just some type of like, like alphaness. And you can have that, but you can also have it in a nice way. And I think it makes for a much better environment for your team. And more authentic environment to your own leadership style. There's a different way of being.

Starting point is 00:18:48 There's a difference between being direct with feedback or direct with a request or something than it is to be like have an alphaness undertone to it that feels like I don't know just it's it's a different energy now that I think people expect or want yeah another one of the things you said to us is that your life motto is just say yes so what is like one of the things that you you kind of like took that approach to and you're like I'm just going to say yes and and then you did something that like kind of like change the course of your life or your career. Yeah. So I guess for better or worse, just say yes. Because when you say yes, a lot of opportunities can come your way. But it's a lot maybe on the to-do list sometimes. So I think two things. One, that advice came to me from an old boss who

Starting point is 00:19:40 I decided to take a break with my husband. We had been together for four years. He was many years younger than me. He still is. It's not like he morphed into an older person. But we were five years apart and I had turned 30 and I was like, where is this going? Like I need, and it's just sort of such a cliche moment to have a milestone like that. And we broke up. And my boss at the time was like, this is your moment. Like just say yes to everything. I think for her it was more of like a romantic thing. Like say yes to every date. Say yes to every whatever. I just took it then to mean, you know, Like when you say yes to things, you don't know where they're going to lead. I mean, going back to the romantic piece of it, like, I met my husband at a Halloween party

Starting point is 00:20:28 where I wasn't even going to go. And I said yes to my best friend from college who took me to this party and semi-new my husband, and that's how I met him. So I look back on a moment like that thinking, well, I may never have met him if I didn't say yes to that moment. And I was not feeling particularly happy to go to this party. I was exhausted and tired and really just wanted to stay home in pajamas. But I said yes, right?

Starting point is 00:20:52 So there is something that happens sometimes where you like meet somebody random that can potentially change your future in some way. But you don't actually get to experience that if you're not putting yourself out there in some way. Now, sometimes you can't say yes to everything and you have to be choosy. But there is a habit that sometimes can happen where you're saying, know so much that you're not going anywhere and you're not meeting new people and you're not that's where that creativity comes into play that's where their serendipitous moments happen. Totally.

Starting point is 00:21:26 And if you don't have them or put yourself out there to say yes to, then you don't have the ability to make that like magical moment happen. And there have been multiple moments in my life that were changed with that like serendipitous energy. Yeah. Just like saying yes. From the first time that I put my resume in for my first job, we're like, like I had no business getting that job on paper, but I just like said yes and threw it into a folder

Starting point is 00:21:51 that went to somebody who ended up hiring me. Yeah. Meeting my husband. Like one, probably the most impactful say yes moment was when I got to my current company, I had gone there to start the beauty and style vertical because they had no beauty or style brands. They had bought Bertie, they had bought brides, and they needed somebody to run it. I went there. Great. Like I was learning digital media for the first time. I was bringing something to them that they didn't actually have, which was magazine chops and sort of media shops. Yeah. And then I did that for three years. And then one day my boss pulled me in his office and he said, you know, we bought this, we acquired Meredith Corp, which had all of these like incredible brands, people, EW, in style, better homes and gardens, food and wine,

Starting point is 00:22:39 real simple. And he was like, we want you to run the entertainment group. And I was like, no. And he's like, why? I'm like because I love beauty. I love style. Like this is what I've done my whole life. Like I don't want to leave this. He's like, just sleep on it. And I did and I woke up the next day. Like, what am I thinking? Like my whole mantra is like say yes. Like what why would I not do this? Yeah. And I did do it. And it changed my whole life. Learning a whole new business, learning how the two businesses can intersect. I eventually brought the two groups together. But I would never have had this incredibly rich experience of running people in EW and people in Español without just saying I'm going to try it. And you know what? If I don't succeed,

Starting point is 00:23:24 I'll go back to beauty or like whatever will happen from it. But if I could succeed, how amazing could it be to learn all these new things? And so that is trying really hard to just really be brave. It's so scary. Getting out of the comfort zone. I mean, hits on beauty for 20 some years. Yeah. And I never, I mean, I obviously beauty intersects with the entertainment world in a lot of ways and celebrities, but that's a whole other animal on its own and to sort of learn that from the ground up and make new relationships there, understand that business. It was really hard. It's the best decision I ever made. And obviously, I credit that to my boss, even being able to see that I could possibly do that. I don't know if I would. I would. I would. I

Starting point is 00:24:11 have raised my hand. I know I wouldn't have raised my hand for it. So sometimes, you know, somebody sees something else for you. And when that happens, I think you really have to trust it. Like if somebody is seeing something in me that I'm not seeing in myself, got to try it. Right? Like I have to, at least deserves a moment of just to try. Yeah. I mean, this is super inspiring for me, for us, because I feel like we are at the moment now where you were when your boss was like, why don't you take on entertainment? Because like for the two of us doing this whole startup, the whole podcast journey, sisters macha, like everything is new to us. Because we come from the tech world. Like we've never like ever built something that you can hold in your hand

Starting point is 00:24:56 that's not in an app on a screen. Like we've never been in front of cameras like this before. So I don't know. That's really inspiring to see like where you are today versus like where you started from being like a total newbie and taking on entirely new industry. Totally. And I don't know. I mean, there's something about creating something from the ground up. I mean, look at this thing. This came from your brain. Yeah. Right. And our hearts. And now you can consume it. And you can touch it and see it and read it. And it's unbelievable what happens when you have something in your brain. I mean, sometimes, I mean, I know that the best ideas I've ever had, the things I look back on and I remember, like, I'm so proud of that came from. I always say it came from either one or two places. One, I was in the shower, washing my hair. Shower thought. Why is that?

Starting point is 00:25:48 If there's something so beautiful about showers? Like, I don't know what. She's passionate about. I talk about this all the time. It's like the water. It's the folk. Like, I don't even know. It has to be a scientific thing.

Starting point is 00:25:58 Somebody needs to spend somebody. Somebody needs to do a study. Yes, because there is something. It's either happened in the shower or it happens either the moment, like the 10 minutes before falling asleep or the 10 minutes where I'm like kind of waking up. up and just sort of thinking, maybe it's because those are places where, or moments where you don't have this incoming inputs all the time. You're separated. You're sort of, you're kind of like in limbo or like your brain is, it's like things are working in the background and you're not like

Starting point is 00:26:30 using probably like, I don't know, the creative aspect of your brain just yet. You're like, yes, waking up or falling asleep. But don't you wonder how many people in the world have, a genius idea in that moment and they don't do anything about it and what did you guys do you had this idea you went through all the steps to like make this a thing and then now you have this thing so now you're like oh we did it once like what's next like you right if you do it once you at once you at least have a playbook of sorts yeah that can will be tweaked a million different ways but you have almost you have the confidence that like you went through it start to finish and And that's the secret to it all. It's like, you got to just try it and you have to figure out your

Starting point is 00:27:17 own playbook and then you'll have something to work off of in the future. Your story before, like I feel like so many elements resonate with me. I think firstly, like having someone in your corner who like really deeply believes in you and like sees the potential before you can even like see it or feel it in yourself is really important. And then also like that paired with kind of the mindset you were talking about. Like instead of saying like what's the worst that can happen, it's like what's the best that can happen, even if I fail or, you know, it doesn't go my way. Like something good will come out of it. Like I think the mindset is also super important. Yeah. And there's also a little bit of beauty in being naive. Like I don't think I had any idea what it was going to take to go through those

Starting point is 00:28:05 moments that I went through that I had to learn from the ground up or build from the ground up. And there was a couple of those moments. I mean, my biggest one was when I switched from print media to digital media. I mean, I felt as though I went through some level of postgrad work on the job. Because there's moments where people are like saying these words. You have no idea what they mean. And I'm sending myself emails to be like, Google this later, like research this later. I have no idea what this thing is.

Starting point is 00:28:34 And so you're sort of teaching yourself in the moment and you're relying on people to not think you're totally stupid. and a hire that shouldn't have been made. You trust them. You learn from them. And I did have that opportunity. I don't know if I would have had that opportunity at any other company. There was just something special about the leadership. At the time, I mean, it still is the same leadership.

Starting point is 00:28:56 But the size of the company, the kind of like familialness that was there, that really helped me succeed in that area. And then other moments where you're just a little naive and you have to rely on everybody around you to get you through it. We are building an app right now and we're about to launch it. And I knew nothing about apps. A lot of us didn't at the company. But we just figured it out. And you can really figure it out if you have some really smart people in the room

Starting point is 00:29:28 and that you can sort of give up control to spread that empowerment around. And you're all kind of doing the thing that you're best at. And you work the kinks out in the moment. I mean, it is such a blessing to, like, be in a really healthy workplace where you not only trust the people on a personal, like deep personal level, but like you can, like you said, speak shorthand with them. And I feel really lucky to be working with Gene now because there's like so many, obviously, 29 years of trust for me. Yeah. With Gene. The place where I want to go next is kind of the opposite of that.

Starting point is 00:30:05 In terms of like workplace politics, could you talk a little bit more about like, like, how to navigate workplace politics. Maybe if it's something that people are not super familiar with, like, do you have any tips for that? It's a tough one because- War stories. So many war stories. So many. I mean.

Starting point is 00:30:23 Which one to talk about? Right. That's like. Some of them, some of it is when you are just starting out, you're developing a thick skin in the course of the first few years. And that is hard. Like when you're raw, I mean, sometimes I wish I could go back. to 22-year-old Leah who had like, you know, who didn't have like this much more skin than she

Starting point is 00:30:46 has now and remember what that was like because the vulnerability and sort of the rawness of being in something new without, I mean, the publishing industry, particularly when I entered it, was cutthroat. Like it was just something I had never experienced before and that level of just, okay, this person looked at me weird. Now I'm going down a spiral. Like my boss yelled at me. Like, and you're just, you just go through that for so many years and you're like, ugh, okay, now, like on to the next thing. Then as you start to become middle management, start to become more moving upward, you are in a position where you're policing a lot of what's coming down to you from your team and you're policing a lot of what's coming up to you

Starting point is 00:31:35 from the people above you. And you are holding this low. in a lot of ways that it's really hard because you have to please both sides. It's like the jelly and the sandwich and you have to try to please both sides. That's workplace politics. Like that's the start of it, I think. And when do you side with your team versus your boss? And how do you influence one or the other or both? And that is like learning how to lead with influence versus force.

Starting point is 00:32:08 That is a massive thing that I had to learn in a lot of hard ways. Sometimes it's not fair. Like there are things that you're being asked to do as a middle manager from your boss. And you think they're going to protect you. You think they're going to be there forever. And one day you wake up and they're not. And you've just had to do a lot of dirty work for a long period of time. And now they're gone.

Starting point is 00:32:34 And you're like, who's going to take care of me now? right? It's very scary. And there was a moment that I went through that in at my job at Cosmo. And, you know, I was left in a different world. It was left in it with new leadership that I didn't know. I didn't really have a relationship with. 24 hours before that, I had a direct line to the chief content officer, right? Like, and that is like, who, that rocks your world. Like, that is, like, really, really scary. It turned out that it was just a, not the place for me anymore because I didn't necessarily believe in the direction the company was moving in. And it was just time for me to find something new. And I am so grateful that I was given

Starting point is 00:33:19 this opportunity at my current company in that moment. If I had to tough it out for, you know, another like year or two, I probably could have just because I have, I had the thick skin and I could probably figure out how to make it work in some way. Yeah. But I definitely wouldn't have been happy. And there is a moment that happened for me. And it probably was when I had kids where I was just like, I do have to feel like there's something else here for me aside from just the paycheck. I have to feel like I'm being respected, that I'm continuing to learn every day, that I feel

Starting point is 00:33:59 like there's a path, a future path for me. I just, there's something else that I have, that I have to prioritize. other than the money. Because if I'm going to leave my kids for nine hours a day, I have to feel fulfilled. It doesn't mean every day is going to be perfect. It doesn't mean that there's not going to be really, really hard time so that you're going to work your butt off and be exhausted and, you know, feel like, can I keep going like this? But you have to feel like you're respected. And when you, if that's important to you and when that stops, you got to go. Some advice. Some advice. that you've also given us in the past is like don't let anyone weaponize you and take the emotion out of it.

Starting point is 00:34:43 Yeah. I feel like that's related to this entire conversation. Could you describe a little bit more about what you mean by that and how you learn that in your career? That's really hard. I'm a very emotional person. I feel a lot of things. I know, especially when you care about what you. work on. Yes. Yeah, it's so intertwined. I have never been somebody who has, I'm not a stoic leader.

Starting point is 00:35:16 I am, I feel energy really, really strongly. Good or bad, like in a room, I am, like, I'm almost sometimes paralyzed by the energy that I pick up in the room, which allows you the capability to read and respond very quickly. You can't go in with a script. You have to go in with a loose outline and read what's going on and then move to the next thing or respond in some way so that you're keeping the thing going versus like being so stiff that you can't. So anyway, that's just, I'm saying that the emotional element and the energy reading that I have is a blessing and a curse. And the curse is that it's really hard to take the emotion out. And I'm telling you, I've been working since the year 2000.

Starting point is 00:36:12 So what, 25 years? I still to this day have to practice that. I still to this day have to remember that when my CEO doesn't like something that I do, it's not that he doesn't like me. It's that he doesn't like what's being presented to him on paper. It's when my boss is giving me feedback and saying, you know, if I were you, I might have done this a little differently. It's not that he thinks that I suck at my job. It's that he's trying to actually make me better.

Starting point is 00:36:45 And then, of course, like, you come up against really challenging people that if it's sporadic and you have to just deal with it every couple of weeks or every couple of months, you got to like steal yourself to get through it and you push through it and it's over. Okay, I can handle that. If I have to be in that energy all the time, I might not be okay with it. And so you have to figure out how to like box up the energy sometimes for a moment and like put it on a shelf. Appartmentalize it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:17 And I have to constantly remind myself that the feedback that I'm getting, maybe it could have have been delivered in a better way. Maybe it didn't necessarily need to be communicated in the way that it was communicated. But what's the core of it? Okay, the core of it is something that I can fix and I'll fix it and we'll move on. It's not as though it's a crystal ball saying, oh my God, I don't belong here anymore. You know, so there's a little, it's just hard to manage it if you're, if you are a sensitive person. And I do think, I don't, it's not that I'm sensitive. to the point where like someone gives me feedback and I'm crying in their office. It's not that. It's just a sensitivity that you have that you get in your head for a minute and you have to

Starting point is 00:38:04 figure out how to get out of it. Now I will say that prior to 2001, I didn't think I needed a therapist. I didn't think that like had to have somebody to kind of vent to like once a week. It's changed my life to have that. I love therapy. We just did a podcast episode talking about mental health and therapy. And our like our journey with therapy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, everyone has maybe a core reason that brought them to therapy. But then what happens in the first six months, you start to like the onion kind of like on de layers. What's the word? Unwines. Like everything just. The onion comes apart. And you're like, oh, right. That's why I feel that way. Like that's why when I maybe get somebody speaks to me in a certain way, I'm like, like the cortisol rush comes

Starting point is 00:38:55 and I'm freaking out. We're the same. I think the three of us are exactly the same. I'm like, what? Did they say that in like a weird tone? Am I over thinking it? I was just like, do they, did I do something wrong? Like, I'm just like, it's not talked about enough. Yeah. The, the impact that tone energy has on, on you, no matter what stage of your career you're in, no matter how long you've been in the workplace, day one, day 100,0001. Yeah. It just, if that's who you are and there has been a, you know, you were raised in a certain

Starting point is 00:39:28 household, you had a terrible traumatic experience with a teacher or an old boss or whatever it was. Like, this stuff sticks with you. I mean, I have moments where I have traced back to like a group of friends from the eighth grade who like didn't want to be friends with me anymore, right? Like, and you're like, wow, this is not just me. being a sensitive girl at the age of 13 having to get over something. This is something that roots in you that you have to deal with. And it erupts in the workplace in weird ways. It's not like it's

Starting point is 00:39:59 just in the past. It's in you. Like your first 18 years of your life are so impressionable. And these moments that you don't think are important, they stay with you forever. And so that's why I think therapy is so important because you can pinpoint it and then you have control over it versus getting this rush of discomfort and anxiety and all of this stuff. And you're like, why am I feeling this way? Which makes you panic more. At least if you know, you're like, okay, I know this is like coming from like my like weird trauma from like somewhere and I know how I can get through it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:32 I know it's not going to last forever. I know what I have to do. It's a toolkit. You have a toolkit. You can name it. You can place it. Yeah. And I think in addition to just being like sensitive people like what we do for work is just,

Starting point is 00:40:45 so creative and so part of like who we are. Yeah. Like it's really hard to separate. Yeah. I mean, we're putting ourselves out there. Like we're like revealing ourselves and being extremely vulnerable with like every aspect of our lives. Totally. This is this is the first time at my current workplace where I've ever had a male boss or male bosses because I feel like I have three of them. And in a lot of ways, it's incredibly amazing to have a different type of management. Men and women, I'm sorry, they just like manage differently. They show up differently. And so I have actually thrived in the last five years with that, not because I didn't thrive.

Starting point is 00:41:31 I've had incredible moments with incredible bosses and leaders who were females. But it just feels different. The way that a man delivers, particularly men who have careers in finance versus careers in creative, it's just different. And you learn really quickly that you're going to have to separate that thing, you know? You're not getting the flowery feedback. You're getting the direct feedback. Now that has come from women too in the past.

Starting point is 00:42:02 Like many of my ex-bosses have been maybe even hogs. harder delivery than the people that I work with now. But it is different and some of it's good and some of it's bad. And I think sometimes there's a level of like, okay, well, there's just a way a man does things and I'm not going to take it personally. I don't know. I've felt that it was good for me in a lot of ways to have this experience. Yeah. And also I just want to say thank you for sharing this part of yourself because it is very, I guess, like heartening for us. because I also view myself as a very emotional person and to like see you and at the level of success and all like your achievements and your career and having done that and being like I am an

Starting point is 00:42:50 emotional person. Like this is how I walk through life and this is how I show up in my career as well. And it's just really, it's like great to see you where you are and be like, okay, it is possible for us to do. So the other side of that goes back to the workwife. Thank you for saying that. But like there other sides of that. So there's, in the last few weeks, I've had a lot of difficult moments in this launch. We've talked about this app launch. It's been really, really hard. Like, there's been things that I've never done before. There's, that's, that's vulnerability at its core form where you're like going through something that you're just trying to learn and figure out. And you're now down to the crunch time. You're like, T minus two weeks. And now you're getting this feedback that's coming

Starting point is 00:43:35 because people are seeing you for the first time. They have feelings about the way the marketing language is or the press release or like whatever it is. And there are things that are delivered in ways that are really, really hard. And you have to, in that moment, absorb it, try really hard to just be completely unemotional. Figure out how you're going to fix it and fix it.

Starting point is 00:44:01 So that's this side of it. The underbelly of it is that you go. go to your work wives, you go to your husband, you go to your friends, you're like, and you're raging, right? And you're like, I can't believe that he talked to me that way or whatever it is. And, but you need both sides. Like, you need to, you need to know that if you have the underbelly there that like you can be real with and raw with and you can like, get it all out, you have your therapist, you have whoever it is that can see all the feelings. that's how you can show up unemotionally in a room and get it done.

Starting point is 00:44:37 Yeah. And just execute. That's such good advice. Okay. I know if somebody is giving me feedback that I don't love or giving it to me in a way that I don't love. I know that I can talk to whoever I want about that. But in this room, it stays out. I am here to stone face.

Starting point is 00:44:58 Lock in. Take it in. Buckle up. walk out that door, go from my rage walk, whatever it is. I love a rage walk now. And then, you know, there's like muscle memory that shows me that I've been through this kind of pattern a million times in my career. I know I'll see through the other side.

Starting point is 00:45:18 I know I'll find the answer. I know I'll get to it. It's just going to be like a pain in the butt because I didn't really plan on having to redo it. Right? Like, whatever it is. Yeah. You got to have like the both sides of it.

Starting point is 00:45:29 It's such good advice. Well, I love it because it's super tactical. It's like this is how you show up in the room. And this is how you can show up outside of the room and both are very authentic to who you are based off of the context and like what you need to do. I love that. You mentioned, Leah, you mentioned your husband a couple times. One of the mottos of our podcast is that we talk about power, money, and love because those are all such important aspects of like a holistic life. So in that vein, maybe you can just like tell us a little bit more about your husband and like,

Starting point is 00:46:00 like your relationship and just kind of like your journey with like love, I guess. Because also for context, we're both recently single. So like we're on that journey. Yeah. It's a beautiful journey. It's hard to be on the journey. I think sometimes it's hard to see it like, oh, my God. Of course you'll look back and you'll be like, oh, I should have enjoyed it more.

Starting point is 00:46:22 But it is hard. It's stressful and it's anxious. And before I met my husband, I was super anxious too. And we met when we were both like totally poor and like, you know, living off of whatever came our way. And we both kind of supported each other to different levels of success in our, we met in 2004. And so now we've been together 21 years. And that's a long time. That's a long journey.

Starting point is 00:46:52 There's dreams that you both have that you have to figure out how to have in parallel. You can do it in parallel. It's just, it's a lot of negotiating. And, but it's also incredible to watch the other one. You know, you're like, sometimes you leapfrog each other. And if you have the maturity to know that that's like a great thing and you're not like competitive with each other and you're really supportive, it's just such a cool relationship. I mean, we're as best friends as we are, you know, life partners and, you know, parenting partners.

Starting point is 00:47:26 and he probably can't understand every day what I do, and I don't always understand every day what he does, but the crux of what we're here to do together to allow each person to thrive has always been at the center of our partnership. I dated a lot of people before him that didn't want somebody to be more of a success than they were or as equal of a success as they were. Didn't want it, you know? And eventually that's why we didn't last.

Starting point is 00:47:55 I found my husband, Nick, and I think I mentioned this to you guys before, but he was five years younger than me. Yeah. He was 22 when we met. I was 27. I was like, there's no way this is lasting. He was like, he was just 21 last week, right? Like, it was crazy.

Starting point is 00:48:11 But he was an old soul and he just, he was raised by a single mom and she taught him to respect the crap out of women. And he just did that, my whole, our whole existence together. He respected me so much. I was many levels in my career above him when we first met. He loved that. He loved the idea that I was going after everything that I had dreamed of going after. And he supported that every step.

Starting point is 00:48:38 That's the crux of who we are as a couple. Is that how, like, you knew he was the one? Like, is that like a realization over time or was it? Oh, maybe. Honestly, I knew he was the one the day I met him. Oh, my gosh. is weird. I think some people say that, but I truly made a phone call to my aunt the next day I met him and I said, I found my husband. She was like, what? And then I tell her about him. She's like,

Starting point is 00:49:04 you're not marrying a 22 year old. Like, what are you talking about? Like, watch me. She goes, bet. But I did know. I mean, there was, maybe it was just that universal, like, cosmic moment where you're like, this is something that I have not experienced before. But then, you know, you over time start to understand like the depths of what that stuff is and why he, you know, he's. And, you know, you over time, start to understand, like, the depth of what that stuff is. and why he's so supportive of my success. And honestly, to this day, he's a CEO. I'm, you know, a version of that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:49:33 You know, I'm running a bunch of businesses, right? I travel and he stays at home with the kids. He travels and I stay at home with the kids. And we just have an understanding that there are going to be moments that are really hard and we're going to be alone in New York City with our kids doing, balancing it all. And we just have to do it to, like, pull it together and be there for each other. And it's great. It's hard, but it's really, really great. So, Leah, we have time for one more question. And I think as Gene and I are looking back to our podcast, a theme is like giving advice to our younger selves. And so if you were to give a piece of advice to yourself in your early 30s, what would you tell yourself?

Starting point is 00:50:15 Being a mom is so important to me. Oh, I'm going to get emotional. Yeah. We're like locked in. Hang on. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry, guys. No, all good. I'm so glad.

Starting point is 00:50:33 Okay. I'm so sorry. I wish I had a tissue. You don't have a tissue, right? I'm so sorry. No, this is a good conversation. Very good conversation. No, don't apologize.

Starting point is 00:50:54 Yeah, really. Do not apologize. That's how we know it's a good convo. We got there. All right. We're good. Okay. I think I like really came into my own when I became a mom and I was working.

Starting point is 00:51:21 Because all these like three things in my life collided. It was like I was a wife. I was on my way upward in the workforce. and then I became a mom. Yeah. And I became a mom like the first time I tried. And so I, and that was maybe in like my mid-30s. And I was like, whoa, okay.

Starting point is 00:51:39 Like maybe I don't have to rush like the second baby because I got pregnant right away. Yeah. And then I did have a really, really hard time getting pregnant my second one and went through like, oh, loads rounds and rounds and rounds of IVF. Oh my gosh. Couldn't get pregnant, couldn't get pregnant. And those were like dark days of.

Starting point is 00:51:57 of my life because I wanted something that I like couldn't make happen. And really to that point, I had been able to make most things that I want happen. Like, yes. I found an amazing person to spend my life with. And I really was moving up in my career and this thing just I couldn't do. And it was so hard. So I think like the advice to the younger self is like, maybe like don't assume that something is that comes to you easily is always going to be easy

Starting point is 00:52:33 like there are things there are moments that you're going to have to like climb a mountain and figure out how to get and it is a lot of hard inner outer work to do and it's not just maybe being a mom like this this blends itself to other areas of life too but like sometimes you start out in the workforce and you're like this is so easy it's amazing and then you just just hit a wall and you have a really horrible boss or your company goes through a total restructure and everything goes to crap or like, you know, this is just life. It's like really hard things happen that you have to figure out how to manage in your life. Like that was one of the harder things that I went through. And I was so depressed for a couple of years. And then I just kind of gave it up.

Starting point is 00:53:20 I was like, all right, that's fine. I have one. He's amazing. I'm going to be fine with just one. And, I mean, out of the blue miracle, like, I got pregnant naturally with my daughter. Yeah. I joke that my, my gynaecologist told me, oh, yeah, this happens all the time. It's like an egg exfoliation. She was like, you like go through IVF, you get the bad eggs out. And then, like, one pops up later and becomes like a real human. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:53:47 So I had my egg exfoliation, I guess, and my good egg popped up. But it worked out. it was just a really, really, really, really hard, dark road. And I think as women, even if you have a life partner there to support every ounce of it with you and cry every ounce of it with you, you take it so seriously. And you say it's your fault. And it's really, really hard. So that was a hard journey. And so there's levels of that.

Starting point is 00:54:13 It's like the easy and the heart of it all, expect it. But also as a woman, like there really is. we deal with biology that is in competition with our career growth sometimes. And there's like no formula for like universal answer or formula. Yeah. It's our blessing and our burden at the same time. It totally is. Very special.

Starting point is 00:54:38 And it's super emotional to talk about. And everybody has a different version of the story. And it's like, I don't know. it's a bespoke moment that everybody has to figure out on their own because they're approaching it in different ways. Yeah. It's a blessing and a curse, but we have our best friends. We have our work wives.

Starting point is 00:55:01 Right. We also have, you know, the resilience that we talked about earlier. We have our therapy. We have the toolkit to get through it. Even though, you know, rainfalls on our lives, rainfalls on everyone's lives. There is a way to get through it. Totally. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:55:18 Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing that with us. Oh, my God. That's a perfect wrap up. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my girl. Thanks.

Starting point is 00:55:25 I want to give you a hug. I wanted to give you a lot. You guys are so sweet. Thank you. You guys are so sweet. Hey, everyone. Quick break to share something special. Sisters Macha.

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