Tiger Sisters - Why letting go makes you unstoppable

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

Ready to meet the mastermind who turned canned water into culture? In this electrifying Tiger Sisters interview, Jean and Cherie chat with Peter Pham, the culture-obsessed venture studio co-founder who grew up in a refugee camp, rolled with gangs at 10, and now shapes brands the world can’t stop talking about. Discover why Peter says removing “wanting” unlocks true success, how he spots brands that transform customers into die-hard fans, and why a short memory (yes, really) might be your biggest superpower. Don’t miss the Tiger Sisters’ deep-dive takeaways on authenticity, risk-taking, and having the guts to build the life—and brand—of your dreams. Tune in for a no-filter conversation guaranteed to shake up your perspective on business, happiness, and what it really takes to stand out.------------------------------------------------------------------ 🐯👯‍♀️ Tiger Sisters Podcast | Career, Entrepreneurship, and LifeWelcome to Tiger Sisters, your go-to podcast for career mentorship and life guidance! Hosted by Cherie Brooke Luo and Jean Luo, we’re your internet big sisters here to demystify the ups and downs of navigating careers, tech, and entrepreneurship— all while staying healthy, stylish, and joyful along the way.Cherie is an influencer who has broken down the complexities of big tech, finance, and MBA programs for millions of viewers, with over 100M+ views across platforms. Jean is a tech product executive and investor, holding over 50 AI patents, who has built an impressive career in product management and institutional investment at companies like Goldman Sachs and Snapchat.Between the two of us, we’ve survived stints at top investment banks and big tech firms, founded startups, and earned four Ivy League degrees—if we’re counting Stanford! Yet, we still find time to focus on wellness, friendships, fashion, and skincare, always sharing the lessons we've learned along the way.Whether you’re here for career advice, stories about balancing life’s challenges, or just to hear our honest takes on what it means to pursue fun, wealth, and joy in all areas of life, we’ve got you covered.💛 LET'S CONNECT: ~ CHERIE ~🤳🏻 Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/cherie.brooke 📱 TikTok – https://www.tiktok.com/@cherie.brooke ✍🏻 My Substack – https://cherieluo.substack.com/ 👩🏻‍💻 LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/cherie-luo/ ~ JEAN ~🤳🏻 Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/jeanluo_/👩🏻‍💻 LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeanluo 🎵 Music produced by Sammy Signal https://open.spotify.com/artist/2HsyknHuxhT8RoZfn5rqMS🛍️ Items Referenced:🍵Sisters Matcha & SISTERS Merch:www.sistersmatcha.com✨Tiger Sisters & Friends Japan Trip (May 2025):https://trovatrip.com/trip/asia/japan/japan-with-cherie-luo-may-2025  ♠️ Everything else:https://amzn.to/3z0dx5b⏰ Timestamps:00:01:22 Meet Peter Pham, Mastermind of Liquid Death00:04:20 Peter’s jaw-dropping origin story00:07:12 “Let go of wanting”00:08:52 Psychology of sports teams in your life00:10:40 Forgetting as a form of resilience00:12:52 Getting away from the Coastals00:13:39 Reset your feeds00:14:06 “If I don’t participate in culture, I can’t invest”00:15:16 Judge a brand by reading their comments section00:16:27 The Liquid Death Playbook00:18:28 Living in a post-truth world00:20:31 How Peter sniffs out real deals, allies, and friends00:24:16 This interview felt extra spicy00:24:44 From refugee camp to millionaire investor00:25:59 “I have everything I need”00:30:52 You don’t have to be the smartest00:32:32 Kim Kardashian’s north star since being a teen00:35:17 Being culturally fluent across generations00:36:52 Jean’s HBS water branding assignment00:38:39 Leveraging the comments section00:39:42 Duolingo personas00:47:27 Sports team mentality & increasing your leverage00:50:03 Sisters Matcha: “you live in our home” 🏡00:53:22 Do you care about the back story?00:56:12 Join the Tiger Sisters in Japan on a trip in May 2025!

I was born in a refugee camp. I grew up in a, what I could consider the ghetto. I was the only Asian kid in elementary school. I rolled with a lot of gangbangers. This is like the age of 10, 11 committing crime. It's kind of ridiculous. When an American, they have depressions. I don't understand what that is.

And it's on your head. Because everyone else in the world, they're so busy dealing with war and famine and where to eat. You don't have time. We have the luxury of time to be depressed. I have my opinions on things. I'm willing to change my mind and be okay with it.

But I believe what I believe. We live what's in the post-truth world. I'm not switching as truth anymore. Just admit that you know that, I know that you know, that we're selfish people, right? We'll be okay. But if you pretend that that's not the way it is, I read it is the best place of, like,

deep OCD information. And I have OCD. And then I tell, I was telling a bunch of investors today, like, having the business culture, our brands, it's actually not that hard. A brand is if you jumped on their social on TikTok or Instagram and you read the comment section. Does the people treat them like customer service or their friend? Who is the crazy genius behind iconic companies like Dollar Shave Club and Liquid Death?

In today's episode of Tiger Sisters, we talk to Peter Fam, who's the co-founder and partner of Science Venture Studios. I'm Sheree and I'm Gene. And we're the Tiger Sisters. Welcome to yet another episode of Season 3 of Tiger Sisters, where we've been interviewing founders, CEOs, and other business leaders, and just sharing and basking in all of their amazing learnings. Coming up, we have our interview with Peter Fam,

and right after that, Jean and I go through our takeaways, basically the learnings, and we discuss them in a business school case study method. All right, we'll head to the interview right after this break. Hey, guys, quick break to let you know that we now have merch on Sisters Macha. We have sweatshirts and t-shirts that we designed yourselves. Go check it out. And please rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. These ratings are so important for the distribution and survival of Tiger Sisters Podcast.

Thank you for your support. Peter, let's start with some ASMR. So we're just going to open it. Well, this is going to sound really good. I'm Peter Pham. I'm the co-founder and managing director of Science Venture Studios. We're a venture firm out of L.A. and incubator of sorts. We helped create companies like Liquid Death, which we just opened a fresh can of.

Dollar Shave Club, Dog Vacay, which is from Rover. I like to say I deal in culture and invest in things that I think people will use. Oh, that's so good. What podcast are you listening to right now? So there's two I subscribe to or try to listen to is all in pod because I think most people in tech deal on Fridays. And also there are some of my friends on there. Matt Walsh is an AI podcast. He does a really good

kind of once or twice a week in his weekly summer of like everything going on in AI. How long is that once? 24 minutes on average. Sometimes 15. It's really really doable. I listen things at 1.5X.

Yeah, so 24 minutes are like, you know, 0.7 mile drive. 20 minute VC is the other one. It's always nice to learn what my peers are doing, what LPs are thinking. Harry Stebbings is a friend and also just like good human, but I think it's a fascinating insight of like what we do is for living. Good recommendations. Okay. As a kid, were you a rule follower or a rule breaker?

I was, so I was born in a refugee camp. I grew up in a what I would consider the ghetto, a city called Santa Fe Springs and then Norwalk in California. Seven of less than a one bedroom apartment. My report cards were like default Spanish. So that's like, because I was the only Asian kid in elementary school. I rolled with a lot of gang bangers. So I did a lot of things that I should have been done. So rule follower? Yeah, a lot of bad things.

Or it's young, very young. This is like the age of 10, 11 committing crime. It's kind of ridiculous. Pre-pre-Juvie. Yes, way before Jury. Okay, well, what about now? Do you consider yourself rule follower or will breaker? Rule breaker.

I think rules are a construct. Like this, right? And I think media in pop culture is kind of defined by what everyone else tells you it's supposed to be. And so I find myself just first principles more of like why and asking, always asking the why and does it make sense? Yeah. So whatever the rules are, it's just like, well, if it makes sense, sure. But if it doesn't make sense, I don't mind challenging it. I like that.

Okay. So let's get into how. How old are you? An Asian. I don't raise them. That's what they say. I know you're my, he's my boss of boss. Okay, well, suffice to say you're older than me, so I can ask this question of you.

It's a very good chance I'm older than you. Okay, so. I mean, act a lot younger. Internally youthful. Yes, so sure. I'm too the side. It's the sure. Yeah, I'm the same.

Okay, so then I'm 35 now. So what advice would you give your 35-year-old self? So it turns out I am Buddhist. growing up twice a year going to Temple. And I was just at a retreat this last weekend, spent some time with some Mongolian Buddhist mosque. Which is really amazing. And removing wanting in my life has been the biggest thing.

So, yeah. Think about wanting. It means that you're probably not happy until you think you get this thing. But like be present. Be grateful for like everything that's happening in the now. Yeah. And good things happen.

you. The other would be my superpowers have a terrible memory, right? Like just absolutely terrible memory, which means if something bad happens to me, I kind of know I'm going to forget it. Wait, I'm the same way, but you know that people say that that's a reaction to, it's PTSD. No, I. People say it's like your way of like dealing with like childhood trauma. Maybe. It works for me. Yeah. It's something bad. I think to myself, well, I'm not going to remember this. So why you wallow it? Yeah. Right. So know that your feet. your stuff will always forget that thing that just happened. So why spend any time on it?

Because the energy you put off, nobody wants to be around you wearing like sad, grass and other things, right? And so that, and then the other thing is know your worth. Truly, I know it's always easy to say these things like, you know, do what you truly love, but you gotta pay rent.

You know what? Give up a little for that. Maybe moving with your parents. Like, yeah. It turns out if you love what you do, no matter what it is, you will win because you're, competitor for this supposed job, nine to five, they're done at five o'clock. Fridays they're done.

They don't think about it 24-7. And when you show the love for that thing, people want to help you. So there's a human thing about human nature where when you see somebody, maybe on the street and they're playing their hard on piano, you're like, you just want to give them one. You meet somebody and they say they're an artist. You just want to help that person. Because if you think about it, most people don't follow their dream. So they see a little bit of you in their dream. And they say, I want to help this person live vicariously. If I can help you achieve your dream, at least, you know, I was my parents, maybe be a doctor. I really wanted to be a whatever. And if they see you, they just want to help.

And so what I found is like you just love what you do. It doesn't feel like work anymore. And then you kind of walk life 24 hours, seven days a week thinking about that thing. So you don't necessarily need to be the smartest person in that subject or whatever it is that you do. But if you love it, it had handling these shows that people want to help you off. And you have the advantage. of basically thinking about it 24-7. Yeah, it makes you the expert.

And it doesn't feel like work. Love it. Yeah. Genuinely, and you will be the best at it. That is totally something that I've noticed. Sheree and I were just talking about this the other day that like, I feel like now that I'm actually putting out there what I'm really passionate about, which is our startup sisters.

Like people are reaching out. Yeah. I like want to help. And I don't know. Yeah. Because also like inherently they're like, okay, I know you're like legit, but then you're not only legit. you're like really passionate about what you're working on and they get like excitement from that.

Yes. They want to be a part of that too. Everybody wants to be, it's a human nature to support sports teams. You think about why this person. Like you're rooting for them. Even if they lose, like you're just rooting for the winning moment. And if you feel like you are part of it, you know, you don't get that in life. You don't get to feel like you're winning every day. But if you're a part of a lot of people who win, help that person, help that person.

Like, I'm winning every day because I've helped so many people. Yeah. I just love helping people. Like, I'm winning every day. Yeah. Okay. I actually, I think that's your superpower. You said your superpower is forgetting.

And so less superpower, what drives and motivates me. Yeah. Is my happiness is driven by other people's. So I want other people to succeed. I want them to be happy. I want them to do, be the best version of themselves. I want them to success. And if they're a good person, I can help in any way be a part of that.

Like, that makes me happy. That's it. It's, it's, I have whatever. I have everything I need. Yeah. I'm very happy with it. And so it's really about helping people achieve the thing. And the hurt and necessize my half.

So COVID was terrible for me, not being around people. Yeah. And it turns out my job, which is helping archimurs become the better version of themselves or building the company that they've always imagined is like perfect for me. Yeah. My motivation is them succeeding. I learned that. Well, and so then, wait, back to your original thing.

You said your advice to 35-year-old, you would be. to let go of wanting. Make of wanting a little bit. But if you had done that when you were 35, would you still be where you are today? Or do you think it was like the wanting was like an inherent driver for you? Part of it is I have a terrible memory, so you plead the fifth. Well, no, I also believe that we are where we are.

We are always where we're supposed to be. So there's no, I don't have regrets of things. Yeah. Rethink things. Yeah, I could have would have shut up, but it's okay. It all is amazing, right? One of these things about spending time with these Buddhist monks, he's like,

I travel all over the world, and I think to myself, coming to America, and they have depression. He's like, I don't understand what that is. And it's all in your head. Because everyone else in the world, they're so busy dealing with war and famine and where to eat. You don't have time.

We have the luxury of time to be depressed. So in the same vein for me, it's like, it's amazing. Yeah. Look at us. We're in a five-star hotel right now. Are you kidding me? We are?

It's kind of amazing. Yeah. So, yeah. I was wondering, I had nothing. Like, knowing and having empathy and I think traveling helps, like to see poverty, etc. but also I grew from nothing, you know, typical American dream type of stuff. Yeah, it's just to be grateful.

Okay. Well, then speaking of traveling, okay, you have a travel recommendation. What's your favorite city to travel to when you're taking a break from work? So I rarely visit the same. city twice. Oh, okay. In my general travel is like two days in a city and hop to the next thing. You know, I'm the, if you watch National Ampoons, you know, they'll walk up to Mount Rushboard and say, all right, let's go. I'm that person. If I see it, I'm done. I'm out. They love an ADHD came. Yeah, massive ADHD. So I just like consuming a lot. And so I don't

think I have a favorite place. Recently, I went to Vietnam. I'm getting me. It's my first time. I know the other, but also on my giant amongst my people turns out. average height i'm five 11th and average height's like five yeah um that was amazing food culture and then u.s i've been i love traveling through the midwests national parks i was just in Nebraska last weekend oh i've never been it's beautiful and also getting away from the the coastals so again if i invest in culture build company if you just pay attention to what happened in la californ new york like you have no idea what's happening in the world yeah so traveling to Ken City or Oklahoma, Nebraska, I'd have, I just, I really enjoy different places.

Well, does it help you then in your work? You feel like you expand your worldview? Yeah, it's asking questions, it's being curious. And again, having empathy, like what's really driving their day to day. Do they have time to spend time on this thing? Do they have money to spend time on this thing? Is it important to them? Yeah, I think you can also spend a lot of time on that on social media.

So my other recommendation is outside of travel is your feed and my feed is different. Reset your feeds. Oh. Reset your TikTok and Instagram feeds. Start over. Search for things that you don't normally search for. And the algorithm will start feeding you content that you've never seen. And it really gives you a better understanding of like everyone else.

Yeah. So are you also chronically online? Of course. 24. Again, if I don't participate in culture and cannabis. Yeah. It's my kind of thesis. What's your social media platform of choice?

Different things for different things. So like I think X for real time information, Instagram for a specific demographic for like music culture. And then TikTok is kind of everything. Yeah. Right? So people think TikTok is just for a small demographic. It's everyone you use TikTok.

If you want to be into home repair, you can have hours upon hours of content of like home repair, interior design or making clothes or jewelry or girls dancing or music it doesn't matter and so I think it's about spending time there yeah um reading commits oh yeah and then youtube of course youtube is television TikTok is television and then uh I as okay we're sympathetico we're in the same I feel like there's like a group of people that are like YouTube is television like creators are the new brands like and then Reddit um redid is the best place of like deep OCD information and I have OCD.

And then I tell us, I'll tell me a bunch of investors today, like, how do you invest in this culture? Our brands, it's actually not that hard. A brand is if you jumped on their social on TikTok or Instagram and you read the comment section, does the people treat them like customer service or their friend? Oh. And it's there. And you can read it.

And it's like customer service. And they're just complaining about like whatever. It's like, literally it's customer. There's like a brand where they, it's like, it's like, it's like a brand where they, it's like, your friend and then if someone digs them, they defend you and they're like, oh, no, you're wrong. You don't, that's the brand. What's a good example? Look, look, if you jump on Liquid Death on our TikTok Instagram and look at any comments,

they treat us like their friend. They talk to us. It's like they laugh with us. They crack jokes with us. And if someone comes in and kind of like makes farthest, they defend us, right? And then. And that's by design. You built that up.

Like, it doesn't just happen. American Airlines. It's like, it's just customer service. Yeah. So it's, like, give me 25,000 miles. It's just a lot of complaining. It's just like get back to me, DM me. So customer support versus like a friend is a way you would, as an investor, look at is a durable brand.

Because relationships last longer than customer support. And so how do you, what's the key to that? How do you build that up? It's like easy as it is everything. Like the word authenticity stored around. But I think fundamentally, yeah, you, I always say, you know, we, Dollar Shade Club, was one of the first brands we helped build. Consumers are smarter than you think.

They know they're being marketed to. So if you look at Liquid Death, we treat the audience like they're in on it. We know, they know, we know that they know that they're marketing. And don't take, you know, don't take that. But also pick a position and own it and stand your ground. Don't waver.

Don't, and just be okay with that. Because at the end of the day, as we all know, someone's going to hate you. And if you flinch on that reaction, like, you'll get destroyed. Yeah. I mean, that's something we've learned through posting all the time. Always, there will be, I call it, 2 to 4% of the population just loves to hate things. Well, what I say to sure is I'm like, the haters actually love you the most.

Oh, of course. Because they follow you. Yeah, they're obsessed with you. And they write the hater comment because you're 99% more likely, you're 100 times more likely to respond to the hate comment. And you're fueling them by. reacted, right? They're instigators. And so remember in high school? Like you had

Instigate, human nature doesn't change. Yeah. Like, do you remember in high school, you had the instigators? Yeah. Those people are now online and they can just do it at scale. They will all exist. But if you ignore them, you ignore bullies eventually, they just bully somebody else. Yeah. So, yeah, life lessons. Yeah. Human nature doesn't

change. That's why I love culture. Like, the humans with, you know, Maslow's hierarchy. It's yeah, everyone's pretty much selfish. Virtue signaling's a thing, right? You just know it. And know that if you just admit that you know that I know that you know that we're selfish people. Yeah. Right.

We'll be okay. But if you pretend that that's not the way it is, hmm. I feel like you're kind of like the culture personified. What do you think about that? You know, again, it goes back to wanting is also in the same sense of like, I have my opinions on things. I'm willing to change my mind and be okay with it and update, but I believe what I believe, right?

And pop culture is changed significantly, right? I think we live what's in the post-truth world. There's no such thing as truth anymore. There is literally not such a truth. Whatever you believe is what you believe. I can't change the Vigil otherwise, and there's multiple versions of the truth. and it's all about perspective

and it's really fascinating about how you get information out there's so many channels to get the information that you actually wants and the reason I say public culture in a lot of ways I actually don't think there's ever going to be a Madonna, Michael Jackson, Dray's like music anymore because your algorithm and my algorithm

is different. Yeah. We're listening and so we do you does anybody know what the number one song is this week? No. I literally, last night, no, two days ago, I played Diet Pepsi for someone, you know, the Azin-Rae song, and he had never heard it before. And then I was like, and then I played Bedkem and he was like, I've never heard this song. I was like, huh? I was like, who, I was like, who are you? Like, do we just have like, zero overlapping? There was two thousand, I believe there was like two thousand songs

last year. But he's like, R-H. It's algorithm. And I don't think about how, it's funny, think about how many artists you listen to today than you used to. Yeah. I don't think back 10, 15 years ago. Yeah. You listen to like 10, 15 artists. Now it's like 100 more. And it's maybe one or two songs. Full albums, nobody really listens full albums anymore. There's a couple, right? But again, if you look at the who they are, it's the big artists that were kind of pre-breakout of Spotify. So, you know, Taylor dropped nine albums before Spotify. Right. So like, that's why. But there won't be another Taylor Swift. Okay. I think we have time for one more question. Okay, what are you most looking forward to for conference or like what is the most valuable part on that 2020.

So I've probably attended more conferences than probably anybody in Silicon Valley. Like what bold claim? Trust me. I'm talking like Mike Arrington TechCrunch in his apartment when he launched Tecunch. Oh, wow. Every conference, Wall Street Journal, all things the fortune. Like literally, you know, Goldman Sachs, Internet conference.

And it's really interesting, like the timing of conference, which started last year and this year. it's a next generation of conversations. It's always been about the people. It's always about like the late night conversations, the conversations at the bar, you know, we're in this room until 1 in a morning. It's like building these relationships. And what's interesting in Dallas, it's a little bit away from the noise.

It's purposeful. People flow out here. It's like, you're going to spend time with them. Then I like the different perspectives of three star admiral to, you know, head of Snapchets. I'm speaking right now, or head of Discord and AI. It's like, I think, real conversations. And so like anything over the 20 years I've been attending, quote, tech conferences, it's about the people.

So being my second year, it's nice to like have that familiar phrase of someone like last year. Maybe I spent two minutes saying hi. But like we talked maybe 15, 20 minutes this time. And now I don't know why I get to know them. And by next year, like, it's cool. Yeah. And I think fundamentally this goes back to being happy and wanting to help.

help people. The key to all conferences, if you do consistency, it's a great group, you fundamentally just want to help them because that means you're going to work together, which means this doesn't feel like work anymore because I actually like hand out with you. Yeah. Yeah. Like building things with your friends is the best feeling ever. It's the best feeling ever. And I think what's great is like I met Amron, but when he first joined Snapchat. So, I didn't speak about 17, 16. When he came to town, I would show me an email say, hey, show him around town. And it's like, well, all in. it's just relationships 10 years in 15 years in i mean i would see downstairs there's 20 people

that have known for 15 years right um and some and a lot of new people that that i'm like oh i could totally see doing business with them or not or just hanging out and learning right i'm learned about fascinating uh business earlier today about he's the largest um mid spa owner in america oh wow like i love learning about this good good good good like too much me, the other thing, I'm learning about these businesses, it's like, ah, okay. So now how could I think about what's happening in his industry? Maybe there's a company we can build and invest in. I met a woman who runs all the NIL athletes. Yeah, super. I learned a ton and it actually, I walked away like, I think I can build a business around what's happening in the industry. So for me,

it's learning things that nobody else is talking about, but there's real big, huge industries. Yeah. The Silicon Valley Jail me kind of ignores, but I think with AI, things changing, you can build businesses around. I love it. That's perfect ending. Wow. I think that was one of the most candid conversations. Super engaging.

Yeah. Yeah. He just, Peter really just put it all out there, which I love. Mm-hmm. It was like kind of spicy at times. Really good advice. I really enjoy that conversation. It's definitely spicy.

And we'll get to the takeaways right after this. Hey, everyone. Quick break to share something special, Sisters Macha. We've launched limited batches. of ceremonial grade, single estate, single cultivar, macha, straight from the family farm Shri worked on in Japan. It's pure, authentic, and crafted with intention. Head to sisters matcha.com to grab yours before it sells out. Make matcha your daily ritual for lasting energy and focus. And I think it was also such a good conversation because he really made me feel comfortable.

So then I was able to more like be myself and then it was just like a very free flowing conversation. Yeah. And I also think it's really best when. a lot of the interviewees go into their personal backgrounds as like a way to set up the conversation because you can better understand like the context how they grew up how they think and what informs that so I thought it was really powerful when Peter shared that like he basically grew up with like very little means in like a refugee yeah I think okay I wrote down what he said he literally said I was born in a refugee camp and grew up in what I considered the ghetto seven of us in a one bedroom apartment. He also said, I rolled with a lot of gang bangers. I don't remember,

I don't know if you caught that part. I did, but I also didn't, I don't even really know what that means, to be honest. Like he was doing illegal, nefarious things. What is a gangbanger? Versus a gang. Oh, it's just like a, it's just like a way to say like gang members. Oh, I see. Who are like doing bad things. But he said at the ages of 10 to 11, I was committing a lot of crime. So he was a literal rule breaker. He was a rule break. We're like, where are you? You know a rule breaker as a child? He's like, let me tell you. Yeah.

Committing some crimes. Yeah. But I mean, I thought, I think it also goes to show like his background how he grew up and how it informs who he is now and like how he sees the world. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like not to psychoanalyze our new friend Peter Pham, but I do think that knowing his background, it makes so much sense why he is the way he is today.

And like one of the things that really stood out to me is that, okay, one, He said his self-proclaimed superpower, which I think is just one of his many superpowers, is he said, I have a terrible memory, which means that if something bad happens to me, I don't remember it. And I figure I'm not going to remember it anyway. And so I'm just going to forget it. Yeah. Memory of a goldfish. It serves people well. I mean, it seems like there's a bit of a trend in the conversations we've had in season three with our guests where, like, a lot of them are just like have a short, like they're like have a short memory or if you don't have a short memory or if you don't have.

one already developed one, just like forget easily so then you can move on and keep iterating. Yeah. I think for Peter, it also goes along with his kind of like Zen personality, which maybe is derived from his Buddhist background, which he also referenced. I do see Peter as being like one of our more spiritual guests. And like I hate using that word. I feel like it's like used overused. But like he talks about like meeting up with Buddhist monks. Yeah. Literally. And also like what's for me will find me like kind of that mentality of like life is for living Well his advice for like who is it that I heard him right oh yeah his advice for his like 35 year old self or to other 35 year olds was remove wanting in your life Like if that's not like a Zen Buddhist saying that's so I don't know what is wait and then I don't know if you caught this he literally said I have everything I know I know I saw I

I heard that. I was like, bro, that's literally the mantra of our macha brand. That's literally the sister's matcha mantra. Yeah. Printed on top of our can. And the meaning, like the idea behind that is that you say that mantra to yourself every single day while you're making the matcha. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, it is. I mean, ours was not derived from like a Buddhist saying. No. But I do understand like where he's coming from where he's just like. It's also not derived from Peter Pham. It's not derived from. And he was not a plant. We didn't ask him to see that.

No. No. But like not happiness is not wanting anything or expecting anything. I think that's damn. That's powerful. Well, that's like really evolved. Hmm. But it goes, it also reminds me of Vutran's episode where he's just like when you come from nothing, Vutran's episode, which is will be up here, hopefully if I can figure out how to edit that in. If you come from nothing, like you also want. for nothing in a way. He didn't exactly say that, but that was my interpretation. He was like, if you come from nothing, then you're unafraid. You're unafraid, but then you also like want for nothing too, where it's just like, it can't get that bad, you know, like you've already seen how

bad it can be. Yeah, like, you could take bigger risks because he's like, I knew what it was like to be at zero and to have nothing. So I'm not afraid of that. That also goes into like one of my takeaways is that like Peter in this episode, he's like, if you love what you do and you can do that every day, it's okay to give up a little. And what he meant by that is that like he literally said you can move back in with your family. Obviously if you have that privilege to do so. But like some people, especially like some of my peers and friends, like when I talk to them and they like want to take risks and like do what they love and like leave their corporate nine to five. But they're like so afraid.

But like I don't think they've actually gone through the analysis of like what's the worst that can happen. And like you can move in with your family to like save money. But like people won't even go there because they won't even consider that. So then they don't make the move to like leave their corporate nine to five. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah.

Like he was one of the things he said. He was like, if you really want to do something, you should give up. You should feel giving up certain things. Yes. In order to achieve your goals. That's also. That means like living within your means, below your means. It like requires sacrifice.

Yeah. I do think that like more clearly and more directly than most of the other interviewers, it was very clear that he lives by his philosophies. Like everything that he said to us that was like either advice or like sort of his mantras. I was like, oh, I see very clearly that you're like living this yourself. You're not just like giving us advice that you're not doing every single day. Yeah. Like, for example, he was like, my happiness is derived from making other people happy and, like, empowering other people to be their best and to like build and contribute to the world.

Yeah. He was like, that's why I. He does what he does. Yeah. That's why I'm a, like, that's why I'm a venture capitalist. That's why I started this incubator to help people build their companies. Totally. And I'm sure that like, you know, he had to give up certain things to get to where he is today.

something that Peter said that really stuck with me is that you don't have to be the smartest at what you do but you just have to be like the hardest working I don't quite remember the phrasing but it was related to like the previous point where he's like if you love what you do you're going to be thinking about it 24-7 and that's even more powerful than like you know thinking about it from nine to five yeah so like you don't have to be the smartest but like you will be the hardest just by putting more hours. Exactly. So it wasn't necessarily like be the hardest working.

It was be the one that like cares about this the most. Yeah. Choose to do something that you love. And then the result of that is that you will naturally spend more time on that topic. Even when you're not technically working. Like you're going to be thinking about it all the time. Yeah. Because it's the thing that you care about the most.

So like it's like the natural second third order effects of it is that you will be better than people who are treating it just as. A regular job. Yeah. If you treat it as like a passion of yours. I mean, I do think that's like if you love something, you will work. My interpretation is like you will work harder at it than anyone else. And what if you love money? What do you mean?

Like what if you love money? Like making money? Yeah. Then you will be working at it and thinking about it. I think that's actually, that can be a lot of people's motivations. And I don't think that's technically like a wrong thing. Yeah. I mean, depends on where it comes from and perhaps seek therapy.

But like, like, if you love money and that's your main motivator for whatever reason, like you will figure out ways to make money. And you'll be thinking about it 24-7. Yeah. And actually, I don't know why it randomly reminds me of this, but like one anecdote I remember reading at some point is that from a very young age, Kim Kardashian had always said, I want to be famous. She's like, I'm going to be famous.

I think they're like video, like whole video clips of her saying that when she was like 16 or 15, 17 years old. And like that was her driving motivator. And now like she is the embodiment of fame. She's like infamous for being famous. Right. So it's kind of interesting. Like that was her North star. Yeah.

Right. So that was what she did everything in her life to like achieve that. And now she's like the best at being famous. That's true. True. That's interesting. Yeah. She like you have define your North Star and if you can think about it 24-7 because you like thinking about it and enjoy it, you're all the more powerful. Yeah. It's kind of interesting if you like then try to like analyze all the things that she's been doing like with that North Star in mind. Like her, you know, getting involved in politics like starting that PE slash investment fund. Like I feel like those are all things. that would help her become more famous. Yeah. Interesting. And also like increase her total addressable market of like where her name and her her brand is like considered in the room. Yeah. That woman should not be underestimated by anyone.

I'm so impressed by her. Yeah. I'm truly, truly impressed by her. I wonder if Peter Pham would be impressed by her. I don't speak for him, but. I mean, I think so because Peter I feel like his, his like brand is that he is the culture. Yeah. You've actually said that at one point. You're like, you are the culture. And the way that I heard it was like capital T, capital C, the culture. And I honestly, it's your personified is maybe what I said.

That's what I think right now. No, that's what he is because like he mentions he's like, yeah, this is what Reddit is for, Twitter slash X, TikTok, YouTube. He like mentions all those social media platforms and how they're used. And I'm really impressed that he just like gets it. He's so fluent. He's so culturally fluent. Yes.

He really understands. Which is kind of funny because I don't think people talk about being culturally fluent and like being able to speak the language of all different generations. Because he's probably what in his 40s? He didn't say. I know. He wouldn't say his age. You asked him how old he was and his response with Asian don't raise in.

I was like, that's true. That's true. So you're 60? Like, year's 65? Like, unknown. Yeah. But, like, I feel like he's the type of person that could speak to a 10-year-old just as easily. He could as he could speak with, like, a 70-year-old.

Just give it a toilet risk. Alpha, beta. I don't know. Medicare. Sorry. Yeah, I see that as well. Like, he's able to transcend generations. And I think that's really cool because I hope to be like that.

I aspire to be like that. But I wonder how it can be advantageous in the professional world. And I'm sure that it is, but I kind of want to like analyze this a little bit more. Yeah. And like is it viewed as advantageous like broadly in the professional world or is it looked down upon in some ways? Well, do you know what I mean? Yeah. It depends on what you do.

I think for him, he's a startup incubator. He's a, you know, venture investor. He incubated liquid death. Like, liquid death is the culture. They, like, created this culture around hardcore water. Yeah. Like, that did not exist. Like, imagine saying to yourself 10 years ago, yeah, my favorite drink brand is this really

hardcore water. Canned water. Also, imagine. Sounds ridiculous. Imagine explaining that to a 70-year-old. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.

It's giving like, why are you paying more money for jeans with holes in them? Wait, okay, I have to say this. So one of the infamous classes at HBS is a like marketing class that's taught by this really famous marketing professor and guru named Yungi Mew. Love her. Oh, yeah. I sat in her class and she has her podcast. Well, it's not her podcast, but she's a podcast. Yes, yes, so you do know.

She, shri came with me to class one day. But one of the exercises that she made us, or one of the assignments that she made us do as students in her class was to create a branded water. So like everyone had to come in with their own idea of like, if you were to create a water brand today, what would it be? And like, why? Because like water is technically like a commodity. Right. Right. So what differentiates one brand of water from another?

Now, I'm trying to think, was this before or after liquid death was created? It was definitely before it became super popular. Yeah. But it's so interesting how there's like room in the market for like 30 plus. I mean, I'm sure there's many more, like types of water, but it's like water. Yeah. Back to your question. Yeah.

Like Peter and like people like him who really. deeply understand people and culture and their wants and their beliefs. Like that's how you create something like out of nothing. Yeah. That's how you like redefine something. Yeah. So it's a new generation. How you redefine culture too. How you shape culture. I really like that he said he's just like, yeah, I invest in culture. Of course I have to like be a part of the culture. And he also said he's just like when you look at liquid death and you look at liquid death and you look into their comment section. Do people treat the company like customer service or like a friend?

And I was like, wow. I was just like, I know that there's things going on in that comment section. How do you know that comment section is like what makes the... He lives in the comment section. Yeah. I thought that was really impressive. I was just like, I know that. Like, how do you know that?

You know what I mean? Yeah. The comment section is it like kind of unspoken or maybe now people are talking about it, but like it's kind of unspoken. Like everyone like runs to the comment section. Yes. I haven't heard people speak about it in a more like professional like marketing, like branding. Moment.

Yeah. Like in a in that sort of academic way. Yeah. In maybe like two years or even less, there's going to be like a playbook that comes out. That's like how to optimize your marketing like comment led marketing. Right. It's going to be something like that. Yes.

And you know what? Like Duolingo is like the famous, famous case study, at least in like the content that I consume and like the circles that I run in. Everyone like goes to Duolingo and they're like the person who did it who is a social media marketing manager, you know, has done it so well. Duo has this entire personality. So many like brands want to partner with her and the company. Although I've been seeing it on the counterpoint, it's like a balance because I've seen like now all these airline companies. have a voice of their own, you know, on X or threads, like Delta, like Ryan Air, Spirit Airlines. They kind of like clap back at each other and like United. But I'm like, this is kind of weird. Like I didn't, I could see Duolingo being personified, but I didn't need Ryan Air and or Spirit Airlines or Frontier to be personified on X.

Do you know what I mean? This sounds like you're a little bit biased against these, uh, but Delta. budget airlines. But Delta. Someone sounds a little bit, a little bit questionable. Well, in the airlines that you mentioned. No, I get what you mean. It's tipped too far.

And like, okay, the other day, for example. Or it's not, it doesn't feel authentic. It's like going back to what he said. It doesn't feel authentic. The Wendy, like Wendy's. Does Wendy's need a persona on X? Like, what is the persona of Wendy's and or Quaker Oats? like I recently rethreaded something that Quaker Oates wrote so I'm guilty.

I'm like literally being a hypocrite right now. But I'm like, do we need Quaker Oats to be like on threads and on X? I mean, they're trying. I know. I guess we can't fault them from trying, but I'm just like, I think the scale is kind of tipped the other way. I'm like a little bit annoyed now. I'm like, what are you guys doing here?

I guess they're not. I think the difference is that they're not a like comment native brand. Whereas like liquid death. example, it feels like they were like bored in the comments, you know. But like bringing him back to like exactly what he said, I just want to say like, I just want to reemphasize the like really like bang or sentence he said. Yeah. So one was he said relationships last longer than customer service. That's like the power of the comments, right? Yes. In the comment section, that's where you like build the relationship. You have the conversation. Yeah. That are not, um, they're not like goal oriented.

They're not meant to like achieve a goal and they're not transactional. You're just kind of like shooting the shit. You're building a relationship. Yeah, it's connection building. Yeah, even people who are not actually leaving comments, they're reading the comments. Yeah, that's why the point. So they feel like they're part of that conversation with the brand. Yeah.

So that feels very organic. And then the other thing he said was customers are smarter than you think. Yes. He was like at liquid death, we treat the audience like they're in on it. Yes. I love this part. You're so good. Because you know what he says after that.

He goes, I know that they know that we know that they know. Yeah, that we're selling to them. Yes. Everyone knows we're marketing. But how do we make it fun? Like, how do we make it something that everyone wants to participate in as opposed to being like the object of the marketing? Yeah. Like the subject of the marketing.

People want to be in on it. And okay, sorry. To go back to Ryanair and Beirut. frontier you know what it is what pisses me off is that they were if they were actually in on it and we were in on it they would own how shitty they are like they would they would make jokes about how like right yes they would repost all those things of people sorry to interrupt like of people like wearing a million clothes yes they would be in on it be like yeah we do charge you like you know 45 dollars a seat and bringing a bag a checked bag will cost twice as much that

Yes, we realize how ridiculous that is. Right. And we're going to keep doing it. That would be their theme and they would like harp on it themselves and like make up their personality. They would understand how messed up it is or like the trade off. But they're like, but we're giving you the cheapest seat available. So wear all your clothes on your body. Like that's pretty good.

That's why it bothers me because like they're not, they're missing the next layer of like they know that we know that they know that we know. Right. Like they're only halfway there. Yeah. It's like it's like Peter said, take a stance. Yeah. Take a position. Say the unsaid thing that everybody already knows.

Or is already thinking. Like everyone, like I will take, I took Spirit or Frontier, like one of these budget airlines to go to Vegas with like my friends at GSB. But like we did it because we knew it would be cheap. The only time she'll do it is when she flies with 400 other people. Fair, fair. She didn't have any bags. I know.

She didn't even stay over. I didn't have a bag. And perfect use case, actually. Yeah. They should see, they should do like videos about that. Yeah. Right. It's just like I don't want brands to pretend that they're something that they're not. Like just be, like just say what everyone else is thinking. And I think that'll get you much further than like Quaker Oats being like, what are you doing here? But does Quaker Oats need to take on like a starky persona? No, please don't. Like they're already. being snarky. I'm annoyed. I was just like stop being snarky. Okay, but if they're not snarky or like funny, then why do people want to like engage with them in the comments? Like what are they going to do? Just post like really wholesome like puppy videos. I don't know. I think they could start like, like just start from first principles and be like why do people even go to Quaker O? It's like,

oh, it's a recipe. It's like healthy. Do like recipe. show how people can engage in your product in fun and creative ways. Like that is the content I'd want to see. Okay. Is like I want to be inspired by it. I don't need them to like. Yeah. So like maybe if they were to do this like comment marketing, you know, campaign,

they would then have like really positive encouraging comments and be like I don't know for people's recipes or like in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like whatever.

I don't know. Like whenever there's something like positive. happening they chime in and be like oh like this is like so amazing this made my day or I don't know yeah I don't know I'd have to think a little bit more they don't have to be snarky like like the same way that um duolingo is I think everyone's trying to be snarky these days and I'm like it doesn't work they're trying to like to literally execute the duolingo um like strategy mm-hmm uh-huh versus taking that strategy and making it work for their brand. Exactly.

Because Duolingo is like in a fun way and I think they've done it brilliantly. So this is not a ding on them or anything. But they're like snarky. They're like chaotic. They say the craziest things. They'll like, you know, retweet with like Duolipa and like they have this new, like this ongoing like segment of like how duolingo is like in love with duolipa. Like, it's like very about the cultural times and that works for them, especially because their social media manager is like Gen Z and like gets it. Like not everyone needs to do that.

Yeah. It's giving Ariana. What are you doing here? Actually, it's quite tired. I still like that meme. No, no, no. I mean, the people are doing the duolingo thing. It's getting for me quite tired.

Yeah. The final takeaway I had with this conversation with Peter is that he took the. analogy of sports teams and why people are so bought in into their sports teams that they love, even though, like, if their sport team is not doing well, when they get a win, they really feel like they're a part of the entire process. And so I don't know exactly remember the quote that he said, but like people love supporting, you know, other ambitious, hungry, passionate people because they feel like they're a part of your success or if they can feel like they're a part of your success, they want to like root for you because people don't get to feel like they're winning every

day so they can live vicariously through your wins and I was like I had never thought about it that way but like the psychology of it makes so much sense totally it's like if I contributed 5% 10% or even like 1% to a person's win then like you get to feel a part of it and so then you get to feel like a little bit of joy and satisfaction and like positivity every day through what everyone else is doing yeah as opposed to just to yourself yeah i mean i think that's the idea that like of leverage right say more um i think like a piece of feedback that a lot of like middle managers get as they're moving into higher management um roles is like the number one or this is at least one of piece of feedback that i got is like the number one thing you need to focus on is increasing your

leverage. So like if you're doing something or you're saying something, instead of you just having a direct effect on something, it should be like kicking off like 10 different work streams and like it'll have an effect on 10 people who then have an effect on 50 other people that ends up affecting like thousands and millions of people. I mean, that's it's not exaggerated actually when you work on a social media. Sure. You know, hundreds of people use. But, um, It's kind of like a version of that. That's what it reminded me of. Interesting.

That's such a interesting association. My brain did not go there at all, but I see that. Or like that's a way that you can scale yourself. Yeah. It's a way that you can sort of apply what Peter is saying, even if you don't work as a VC yourself and you're not an investor and you work in a corporate job, right? It's like increasing your leverage. Like how can you have more directed? influence and more indirect influence at the same time.

When Peter talked about that, it reminded me of our macha brand, Sister's Macha. And one, it's like super like grassrootsy in like how Jean and I are like in there in the comments and talking to people responding to everything. But also in that like people want to feel like they're a part of something. Something that we started doing was writing the people, our customers, names on our wall in our home in our home office just like every single's name every single person's name who's bought a sister's matcha and it's like in a lot of our videos their names are there they're present like they're a part of the story you're yeah you live with us you live in our home yeah um you're with us every day

exactly so i actually hadn't connected those two but i'm like oh that's why like i didn't you know we wanted to do it for a reason but like This is the very concrete reason is that people want to feel like they're a part of something. And when they can see their name, they're like, oh, I'm contributing and I'm part of this story, the history of it all. Yeah. And like I think also they're connecting not just to like our story of being sister co-founders, but also the fact that our matcha is sourced from this family farm. Like a really small family farm in Wazuka, Japan. And we like talk about that family farm too and like how, you know, we're really close.

to them and like how we are like basically plugged into every single part of the production and creation and yeah everything I think that's also part of it right like I don't feel like we're just doing it for ourselves I feel like we kind of have a higher purpose in in doing this company right aside from the fact that it is like the best healthiest most amazing macha that you can buy pretty much and I'm like very proud of and stand up and behind the product. Like, it's, it's more than just a product. Yeah, which is, I think, interesting, going back to the differentiation of water. Like, this is the differentiation of matcha. Yeah. Like, part of what makes our matcha special is, like, obviously, it tastes good, the health

benefits. And it's like, I mean, it's ultra premium. It's like the top of the top, like, all that stuff. Yes. But then in addition to that, like, there is this story of this family farm that we are connected with and we're sourcing from that like other macha companies on a much larger scale like much bigger than us um they don't have the same ties to that and if they're doing some like larger scale farming like it's definitely not the same it's so different yeah there's a heritage yeah yeah i mean yeah it's like the same reason why you know you can have one handmade leather bag that's made in france that's maybe like a hundred fifty dollars and then you can have a handmade Armez bag, which is $6,000 or, you know, $150,000.

Like, it's the heritage behind the story of that house that is so well-known. They've done such a good job of telling the story of that Maison over time. Yeah. That that is their competitive advantage. That's why they're the like 800-pound gorilla in, you know, luxury handmade leather goods. Yeah. Honestly, I think we should do a better job. We could do a better job of telling the story behind it.

Yeah, I agree. I don't know how much people care about it. I care so deeply about it, but I don't know. It's interesting. Let us know. Let us know. Do you care? Yeah.

Like, does it make a difference for you in the consumables that you purchase when you know the story behind it and when you know like literally the people who are doing the sourcing the people who are doing the vetting and everything, like, you can see their faces and hear from them and like see the process too. Yeah. I wonder what you. So when I used to work at LinkedIn, something we would call like the aha moment is like when do people start like realizing that LinkedIn learning is like, oh, is a product that works for them? Huh. What is the aha moment? Did you ever call it that? Especially during like onboarding since I worked on onboarding in my first few years. It's like what is the first experience that a user goes through?

Or I guess it's like is another way to put it. Like what is the day or the moment that they end up retaining? Like they become like a lifelong customer. That they end up like getting it. And like the whole point is that like for retention and growth, you're supposed to shorten the time to getting to the aha moment for users. And so something that I've seen and I've actually felt myself is that like when Dean and I, travel, we go on vacation. We do a lot of Airbnb experiences. And like the aha moment for me and I've

seen for other people is like when they get to experience something themselves. So like when I was working on the macha farm, we used to have like guests come in and go on a tea farm tour. And like, I mean, it's the second that they're on the farm, they hear from our manufacturer, like our source, Dikey's on the farmer, the head farmer, um, they hear. hear about his story, they see the farm, they taste it, they understand how much craft and care goes into like every single freaking cup. Like that's an aha moment. And I would say the bar is quite high to get there.

Like you got to go to Japan. If you're, you know, outside of Japan, you got to travel there. You got to go to the countryside. You got to go on this tea farm tour. You have to allocate a lot of time to it. Is there a way to get users and customers to the aha moment without actually having to do that? Yeah. How do you translate that for the math?

How do you, yeah, how do you? Can you? I think, I mean, we've done it a little bit of like the content that we create on the farm and like telling the story of the farm. But how can you do it in a more like visceral manner? We need to make a documentary. We need to go back to the farm. This is where we go back to the farm. Yeah. Make a documentary. We are going to go back to the farm for harvest season. Exactly. So yeah. I mean, like guys we like we walk the walk we're not just like talking to top yeah we're going back in may 2025 if you like to join us we have a trip a group trip with you guys um we have 15 spots total and i think around um we have like three spots left so if you'd like to come with us to japan and may of 2025 travel with us um we are going to Tokyo mount Fuji which we've both never been to before we're visiting a tea farm in Shizuoka, a different part of Japan that we've also never been to before.

Yeah. It'll be fun to see a different tea farm. Yeah. I'm very interested in that. Yeah. Because they have different farming methods. Yes, I was just about to say that. It's a different landscape.

Yeah. Completely in Shizuoka. It's not as mountainous as Kyoto. Right. So they can use tractors versus our mantra comes from an area where it's too, like, hilly to actually use tractors. So that's why everything is done in very small batches and by hand. Yeah.

we will have a link in our description if you guys would like to join us for that trip and we would love to have you yes anyway so peter fam i mean you know it was a great conversation because it relates to our lives in so many different ways yeah it just made us think so much yeah like it led us to have these like really deep conversations even though he's not here but like off of the back of his like quotes he's good that man is he's good i know maybe we should maybe we should get him back. Wait, we should. I feel like he would, I have so much more to say. Yeah. This was like only like a 20 minute interview. We should do a longer one with him. Yeah, guys, let us know if you'd be interested in a part two with Peter. Yes. And then maybe we can convince him to come back onto the pot.

Thank you guys so much for tuning in to this episode of the Tiger Sisters. Please remember to like, comment and subscribe. And if you're listening to this episode on Apple Podcast or Spotify, please give us a five-star review. It only takes a few seconds and it means the world to us. Thanks guys. We'll see you next time. Bye.