Timesuck with Dan Cummins - 108 - Lizzie Borden Took an Axe...

Episode Date: October 8, 2018

During an oppressive heat wave in August 1892, prominent Fall River residents Andrew and Abby Borden were brutally murdered in their home; each dealt multiple and savage blows to their heads with a hatchet. Were they killed by Andrew's strange, thirty-two year-old daughter? A lot of evidence points to her being the killer. But, she was acquitted. I for one, think Lizzie was probably guilty. But will you? Make your own decision after listening to today's Timesuck? Timesuck is brought to you by the The Jim Jefferies Show podcast. Listen wherever you listen to podcasts! Timesuck is also brought to you by The Great Courses Plus! Get a special FREE Month of Unlimited Access when you sign up at TheGreatCoursesPlus.com/TIMESUCK Timesuck is also brought to you by Simple Contacts! Go to simplecontacts.com/TIMESUCK20 or enter code TIMESUCK20 at checkout to get $20 off your contacts! Merch - https://badmagicmerch.com/ Want to try out Discord!?! https://discord.gg/tqzH89v Want to join the Cult of the Curious private Facebook Group? Go directly to Facebook and search for "Cult of the Curious" in order to locate whatever current page hasn't been put in FB Jail :) For all merch related questions: https://badmagicmerch.com/pages/contact Please rate and subscribe on iTunes and elsewhere and follow the suck on social media!! @timesuckpodcast on IG, @timesuckpodcast on Twitter, and www.facebook.com/timesuckpodcast Wanna be a Space Lizard? We're over 3000 strong! Click here: https://www.patreon.com/timesuckpodcast Sign up through Patreon and for $5 a month you get to listen to the Secret Suck, which will drop Thursdays at Noon, PST. You'll also get 20% off of all regular Timesuck merch PLUS access to exclusive Space Lizard merch. You get to vote on two Monday topics each month via the app. And you get the download link for my new comedy album, Feel the Heat. Check the Patreon posts to find out how to download the new album and take advantage of other benefits. And, thank you for supporting the show by doing your Amazon shopping after clicking on my Amazon link at www.timesuckpodcast.com

Lizzie Borden took in Acts gave her mother 40 Wax when she saw what she had done. She gave her father 41. You heard that little diddy? It's been around a long, long time. It's McCobbs, school yard rhyme, and continual media coverage, including numerous books and films, have kept the memory of a Massachusetts double homicide alive in the public's imagination for well over a century now. During an oppressive heatwave in August 1892, prominent fall river residents, Andrew and Abby Borden were brutally murdered in their home, each dealt multiple and savage blows to their heads with a hatchet.

The only serious suspect was Andrew's 32-year-old, unmarried daughter Lizzie, who was at the house during the killings. His other daughter Emma, who also lived at home, was out of town, and their living, made Bridget Sullivan was in her third floor room resting from a morning of window washing and vomiting, following the consumption of possibly spoiled mutton stew that may have been behind the whole family having been sick for days prior to the killings. A prim proper church-going woman and a nice well-to-do fall river Massachusetts neighborhood brutally killing two members of her own family with a hatchet, it was unthinkable.

And the case received widespread and constant newspaper coverage when Lizzie was charged with the murders and went to trial. And then Lizzie was found not guilty by the jury, but the majority of residents in Fall River, Massachusetts seemed to disagree with the verdict and she was shunned by most of the town for the rest of her days. When you look at the evidence, it does seem like she almost had to have done it, but did she? And whether she did or didn't do it,

why did she spend the rest of her life living in Fall River where everyone assumed she was guilty? This only added to the public's fascination with her. And since the crime remains officially unsolved, interest has never gone away. There are all kinds of theories as to why she may have committed their murder. She wanted her father's inheritance.

She was sick of living under a domineering father's thumb. She was a victim of incest at the hands of her father. Her father swore to love affair she'd had. She was angry with her father for killing her pet pigeons. She hated her father for marrying a stepmother. She openly despised. Maybe all of the above contributed to the deaths. So many theories, almost all clearly revolving around her father, I'll have to make a note

to be extra nice to my own daughter, Monroe. Don't want to wake up to an axe? Axe wake up call. That's the worst kind of wake up call. So did she do it? The jury said no, but most historians say yes. Well, we're going to look into Lizzie's life before the murders, the crime, the trial, and her strange life after the murders,

all today on this true crime and dark, mysterious edition of Time Suck. You're listening to Time Suck. We're listening to Time Suck. We're listening to Time Suck. Happy Monday, Time Suckers, Hell Noon Rock. Praise the Jangles. Be gone, Luciferina, go on, get out of here, go, suckers. Hell, numrod. Praise the jangles. Be gone, Luciferina.

Go on. Get out of here. Go on, get out. Dan Collins, AKA long time stand-up comic, AKA the master sucker, Profit of numrod. Luciferina's meat sack minion and the fourth leg about jangles. And you are listening to Time Suck. Welcome to the Cult of the Curious. Today's Time Suck is brought to you by the Jim Jeffery show podcast.

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Second. Yeah. And speaking of an international point of view, I know we've gotten a lot of new listeners lately, especially from Canada, Australia, the UK, Sweden, elsewhere, Ireland. I'm glad you're listening. Glad you're enjoying time, so thank you for joining us. So glad you're here. Always rooming in the cults and curious for new members.

And I really want to tour internationally someday. So keep spreading the suck in your homelands. Get to it. Nimrod demands it. And I might not start stomping a Cockerspaniel skulls to appease our strange God if he doesn't get what he wants to know and wants that. Especially not the Cocker Spaniels, they really don't want that. And by the way, speaking of Nimrod, don't worry too much

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Uh, everything's gotta be monitored by the thought police now. Which hunters? They're out there, like a triniac trying to bring people down. Have opinions, just have thought out opinions. You may not like mine, but you know, I don't toss them out, Will and Nilly. I think about this shit. And be willing to change your opinion when confronted with solid evidence of the contrary. Happens to me all the time. Time sucks about all shit and be willing to change your opinion when confronted with solid evidence to the contrary happens to me all the time.

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Record in the suck dungeon. It's fine fall dates. Chris outside but I like it. Reverend Dr. Joe motherfucking Paisley and Queen of the Suck Lindsey in the suck dungeon today. Had fun. Thank you for the people who came out

to the Huntington Beach standup shows. Orange County. It's always been a tricky market for me. Smaller crowds, but mighty crowds. Man, first show Friday was electric. All the shows were fun. And I pissed off the bartender, who apparently is a flat-author and did not care for my take on the flat-earth.

So, you know what? Well, maybe I shamed him into some fucking learning. Thanks to all the Portland Organ Times like our last weekend too, man. Holy shit, those shows were some of the best I've ever had. My God, Portland's always been so good to me. Always gonna have a special place in my heart. Most fans have ever had turn out and Portland by far.

So thank you, thank you, thank you. Five stand-ups shows this weekend into coma. Let's make these the best to coma shows have ever, ever happened. It's a Tacoma Comedy Club. October 11th to 13th, another live time select podcast on the 14th about those narcos, Satanists led by Adolfo Constantinzo

and the late 80s just across from the Mexican border town of Brownsville, Texas in Matamoros. Three shows in Columbus, Ohio on Friday and Saturday. November 2nd and 3rd, Friday, early show. Two shows on Saturday. Let's do it Ohio. Let's fucking OHIO tear that club up. Helium Comedy Club in Buffalo, New York, November 8th to the 11th.

Back to Grand Rapids, Michigan. Dr. Grins November 16th, 17th, including my last live podcast of 2018 on 17th Take us finally on sale for dr. Grins small room So be sure and get them early so don't get left literally in the cold It's gonna be freezing there in November more dates at the end comans dot tv links to take its always in the episode descriptions Thanks as always for the reviews especially the positive ones They help spread the suck and help us to continue to get new sponsors and do what we do here Now let's get into the meat of today's Lizzy Borden sandwich. We're heading down with it.

It's probably a pretty previously trodden trail for some of you. The tale Lizzy Borden, while I was not familiar with the prior of this past week, has been covered and retold repeatedly over the years. There was the Agnes to Mills 1954 ballet fall river legend in 1965 opera Lizzy Borden, the concept recently reimagined a rock opera called Lizzy the Musical. There was 1975 made for TV movie The Legend of Lizzy Borden starring Be Witched Elizabeth Montgomery, who in real life with six cousins with Lizzie. There's of course the Lizzie Borden tribute band, Thin Lizzie. On March 26, 1976, the Irish melodic metal band released their most known song, The Boys

Are Back in Town. That song is about a couple of Portuguese workers who had previously worked for Lizzie Borden's father Andrew, who were later minor suspects in the murders when they showed back up in town on the day of the killings. The boys are back barren grill the drink will flow in the blood will spill It's the boys want to fight you better let them All right, Dino's was a barren grill that Lizzie and her family frequented and of course that is horseshit Thin Lizzie has nothing to do with Lizzie boredom Would be great. Would be great if it did Lizzie boredom story has been a

Total lot in pop culture though, you know, almost 40 years later, lifetime aired the Christina Richie vehicle, Lizzy Borden took an axe after that 40 years after that first movie followed it with the series called the Lizzy Borden Chronicles. Both were panned by critics, both also got a fair amount of eyeballs on them, bringing the case of Lizzy Borden back to the public guy. Just a few weeks ago, new Lizzy Borden film, a psychological thriller starring

Chloe Savini as Lizzy and Kristen Stewart as Bridget Sullivan, the family made titles simply Lizzy hit select theaters. I need to see it, man. I love Chloe 70. My God, one of my favorite actresses for sure. Very, I don't know. She just seems like a really good actress to me. She's like captivating to me one of the most captivating And you know, I do think she's very sexy Also, I have seen the Christina Richie movie and I liked you better the most critics lifetime man Fuck and stepping up their movie game in the past several years black keys on the soundtrack stylized thriller I feel like for the most part they stuck to the story really well

Lifetime's come a long way since pumping out nothing but cheesy manhate and melodramas in the 80s and 90s. We're like, you know, every movie seemed about, we've got like an abusive dad or like a drunk husband, you know, and some fucking, you know, just put upon wife. It seemed like that was Lifetimes for me for so long. Anyway, of course, these murders have stuck with us. The case of Lizzy Borden,

it's just for lack of a better word, odd, her reactions to questions seem strange or trial. She seems strange. Her decision to stay in town, where she was ostracized, following her trial and thought by the overwhelming majority of residents to have killed her parents. Very hard to understand from me. She never married, never seriously courted anyone following the death of her father and set mother.

Her sister Emma was 41 at the time of the murders. Also perfectly attractive. Also chose to be what was at the time of the murders, also perfectly attractive, also chose to be what was called the time, a spinster. Now not everyone has to get married, and perhaps both of them were lesbians and didn't like dudes. Maybe they just were happy being alone. At the very least though, it was just an atypical family, not normal behavior for the times. Lizzy hosted lavish parties that lasted long into the night, you know, into the wee hours the morning with local actors and actresses, which a member of Upper Society, especially

a single woman, just did not do it the time. She did that after her parents deaths. Numbers from mistakes were made by the cops who investigated the murders. The court made a number of bewildering decisions regarding what evidence should be allowed in the trial amongst other blunders. Lizzie burned a dress shortly after the murders. She tried to buy Prussic Acid, aka cyanide the day before the murders. So you know, so many just what the fuck decisions were made either by Lizzie Borden or by those investigating

Lizzie Borden. So now let's build up to these decisions and also take a closer look at them in today's time suck timeline Lizzie Andrew Borden was born fall river massachusetts on July 19th 1860 to parents Sarah Anthony Born in Fall River, Massachusetts on July 19th, 1860, to parents Sarah Anthony, formerly Sarah Morse, and Andrew Jackson, Gordon. I shit you not. Seriously, I am not making his name up. Andrew Jackson is already back.

He's haunting me. He's haunting me. The most polarizing topic I've done here in the suck, which I had no idea would be so polarizing, had no idea he would ever show up again. That really is Lizzie's dad's name. Lizzie, Gordon murdered Andrew, Lizzie Borden, murdered Andrew Jackson.

I know based on emails and reviews, some of you not big fans of Andrew Jackson or might take on him and I get your reasoning. Well, actually we'll go over it a little bit in the time of sucker updates today. So this may be a bit of a redemption moment for you. Now in this episode, Andrew Jackson gets his fucking headcaved in with an axe.

Does that feel good? And you know, I will talk about a little more in the updates, but just know that if former President Jackson were alive today and acted the way he acted in the early 19th century, I would think he was a monster. I would hate his guts, right? He would be a monster.

And while I respect his bravery and battle, a lot of what he did for our nation and I respect his toughness and perseverance, yeah, of course I also think he did a lot of fucked up things. You know, clearly he was not a great example of someone having, you know, ideal race relations. I'm a little bummed, some of you couldn't see kind of really like the gist of my take

and somehow felt betrayed by my take on him, but maybe I should make it clear enough that I didn't, I'm not condoning his decisions. I'm just saying, you know, it was a different time. I love our African-American and American Indian suckers. Please, please know that admiring some of the deeds and parts of the character of someone from an era long, long ago,

that didn't share my ideals in certain areas doesn't change that about me. I'd like to think I don't even need to say something like that, but you know, people have emotions. And sometimes those emotions can lead to triggers that I'm not always even aware of. Hurt feelings, interpretations, I don't seem really like fair to me,

but you know, we all have our lens, we see life through. Just wanted to get that out there. Phil needed. I'm the same dude. I was before the suck. Now back to a different Andrew Jackson. Andrew Jackson, born in 1822 was a descendant of wealthy and influential fall river residents, grew up struggling to get by though.

He came from money, fell on a hard times, and eventually made his own money. Eventually made a modest fortune in the manufacturing industry where he sold furniture and caskets. He also worked as a property developer, director a textile mill landlord of several commercial properties and Was president of the Union savings bank and director of the Durphy safe deposit and trust company by his life's end He'd amassed in a state where $300,000 which would be a little over $8 million in today's money So very solid man. I will never cease to be impressed by the tale of a self-made man Or self-made woman, you know, as part of the appeal of Oprah Winfrey. Working your way up from nothing, not a leave in

the future generations of your family far more than you ever had early in your life. Man, personification of the American dream. And that's what Andrew Jackson boarden was in many ways before he met his untimely and gruesome fate. Despite being the 1860s version of a millionaire, Andrew never spent very much money on his family. He was known as a bit of a miser, bit of a scrooge, McAndroom, McJackson, McBorden. I get it, man, he was poor when he was younger. He went through some tough times, knew what it was like

to truly worry about money. I can be a little bit of a miser, I got a little bit of that ref of my own family. But yeah, you got fucks to save your money. Not enough people to do. The boarding home had no indoor plumbing or electricity, even though most wealthy homes in at the time while their home was in an affluent area,

92 second street, second street, excuse me, the wealthiest residence of the fall hill, including many of the boarding's relatives, lived in a more fashionable neighborhood called the Hill. A neighborhood further away from the industrial areas of Fall River, far more desirable. Lizzie openly complained to her father for years about how they should live on the Hill. How it was embarrassing to not live on the Hill.

You know, it's her dream to be a debutante, living on the Hill a lady of means. Someone doesn't have to shit outside, unless openly trashy Paris Hill. Fall River located 60 miles due south of Boston, only 18 miles southeast of Providence, Rhode Island. Fall river lies on the eastern border of Mount Hope Bay, which begins at the mouth of the Taunton River, starting south from the Charles M. Bragg, a junior bridge. The greater portion of the city is built on hill sides rising quite abruptly from the water's edge to a height of more than 200 feet or 60 meters.

From the summit of these hills, the country extends back and comparatively level table land on which a large section of the city now stands. The area of fall river originally settled by European colonists in 1670 later in corporate in 1803, originally named for numerous waterfalls that ran through the town. Steve Western portion of the river between downtown and the waterfront originally consisted of a series of eight small waterfalls confined within a narrow rocky bed then beginning in the early 19th century a series of small dams erased most of these waterfalls. There are currently plans being considered that would restore or recreate them build a green belt through the town was connection to the waterfront.

If you're a you know fall river listener The current population about 90,000 people and in the 1890s already around 75,000 people lived there So it's a big city for the day In the 1870s Andrew Borden made the beginning of his fortune riding a huge economic boom in fall river The city's population increased by 20,000 people during just two years In the early 1870s like 1870 into 1872. Textile production was big. It was already the leading textile production center of Massachusetts in 1868,

with over 500,000 active spindles, cranking out fabric by 1872. This number had doubled to more than a million. Spindles and spinsters. That's the main topics of today's show. Spindles and spinsters. By 1876, topics of today's show. Spindles and spinsters. By 1876, the city had one sixth of all new England cotton capacity and one half of all print class production going on. The spindle city, as it became known, was second in the world only to Manchester, England in terms of total output in this regard. Make, make that sweet spindle money. Andrew and Sarah married on Christmas day, 1845.

Just that, that's weird to me. Why would you get married on Christmas, whatever. When he was 23 and she was 22, but they wouldn't have a child until five years after their wedding day. Until then, they were just fucking for fun. Emma Borden, born March 1st, 1851, and then in 1856, a second daughter was born named Alice Esther, but Alice died

at the age of two of Hydrocephalus, water on the brain. Lizzy was their third and last child, and when Lizzy was three years old and 1863, her mother's cereboard and died. Now she was killed, as fate would have it with the tiny child's axe. Little Lizzy's toy axe to be precise. Her death was ruled in accidents, even though young Lizzie, it seemed that she may have bludgeoned her mother somewhere between 70 and 90 times with this tiny little axe. It took that many wax to break through Sarah's skull due to Lizzie's

weak little baby swings and the wispy little baby hatchet. Investigators just couldn't figure out why she would just kind of lay there and take that. Obviously, that's not true. Obviously, little Lizzie did not hack her mother down with a tiny axe. Her mother died of uterine congestion and a disease of the spine. Emma was 12, it took care of Lizzie. That's what the ruling was. She probably died of something else, but people didn't know what things were as much as back then.

Emma was 12 and took care of Lizzie despite the family living near the girls. Grandfather, step grandmother, and Aunt Lorana. From then on, older sister Emma would continue to be like a mother to Lizzie. Two girls were brought up in the Central Congregational Church where Lizzie taught Sunday school. The children of immigrants is a young woman. She was a member of the organization of the Christian Endeavor Society, where she served

as Secretary Treasurer. She was also a member of the woman's Christian temperance union. Stop drinking fellas. Get that evil, the devil whiskey out of your hands, as well as the lady's fruit and flower mission. So she just basically doesn't sound like a lot of fun. She sounds like a real stick of the mud. She liked fruit, didn't like drinking, and yeah, okay.

And she briefly joined a local acts enthusiast guild. She was put in charge of swing technique when she was young. That's, of course, that's not true either. In 1865, excuse me, just two years after her mother died, when Lizzie was only five, Andrew Borden had remarried Abby Durphy Gray Borden. She was 37 years old at the time, considered to be an old maid when they were

married to Spencer. So how many spinsters in this tale? Abby had actually put her vagina in a safety deposit box at the bank a few years earlier because she just didn't think she was going to need it. Stavillus is feeding. Yeah, why do you make me say stuff like that? No, Abby kept the derpy name to link her with one of the first families of the area. She desired respect and social status was a daughter of a push card peddler came from very little money to marry someone of Andrew station was an unexpected blessing special age many times speculated and you had proposed to Abby because he was looking for a housekeeper and someone to raise his daughters.

He wasn't exactly known as a romantic more more likely that the 43 year old businessman needed help rais his daughters. The true relationship between Abby and her step-daughter Lizzie remains something of a mystery. There's no evidence of abuse or neglect, but several persons, including prosecution witnesses in her murder trial, reported that the relationship was less than loving and that things were tense between them. Some believe Lizzie killed Abby because she hated her, then felt that she had no choice, but to also kill her father who would know the truth. Lizzie's older sister Emma openly

disliked Abby and both girls called her Mrs. Borden, most of the time rather than mother, and also rarely eight meals with her parents. There was definitely tension in the Borden household. Now, since there isn't a lot of evidence about the day-to-day going on of Lizzie's children or a lot of documentation, that's the word I want to do. Let's skip ahead to 1892, the year of the murders. Lizzie is now 32 years old, or sister Emma is 41 years old, neither one of them seriously dating, neither one has a job. So weird.

Not terribly in common at the time, but now looks as desirable either. You were looked down upon if you weren't married by your mid-twenties at the very latest. You were an old maid now. And now we have two very old maids, uh, both living on dad's money. If anyone was going to kill anyone else in this family, I would have thought Andrew Jackson Borden would have the most motive to hack some family members down with an axe, you know, just, I am so fucking sick of paying for your lives. I pay, and I pay, and I pay, and what do I get?

Two daughters who resent me, couldn't at least one of you, except any of the men I typed upon you off on. You know, just something like that is you fucking swinging the axe, I'm so sick of the pain, and the pain. In 1892, Andrews 70 years old Still working full time to support his wife and two grown-ass daughters who both wish they lived up on the hill

Especially Lizzie now that had to been fun, but daddy Daddy we never get anything we want I want to live on the hill with the real rich people daddy I want to use a golden fork to eat dinner with. I'm not a silver fork. There's not fair daddy. Why do you only buy M&I last year's fashions? I want to wear what people are wearing in pairs now. You're so cruel daddy. You ever spend any time around someone in their 30s or 40s who never ever had to

fend for themselves? Generally not a good look. I'm always amazed by the level of entitlement some of those people have and the anger they have towards the people who have just paid their way through life always. I gotta say doing the research this week, Lizzy Borden reeks of that person to me,

chronically unhappy with daddy and step mommy, but never make an effort to, you know, I don't know, strike out on her own. And yes, I can already hear some of you starting to write that email. Listen, it was fucking different for ladies, it was hard, to, you know, I don't know, strike out on her own. And yes, I can already hear some of you, you know, starting to write that email. Listen, it was fucking different for ladies. It was hard, yes, I know, I know, I know the history.

I know it was, there were not many jobs for women, the workforce was incredibly unfair towards women at that time, but there were some women working. I mean, Bridget, you know, the housemate, she worked for the family, she was a member of the family, and there were female entrepreneurs that carved lives for themselves as shopkeepers and saloonkeepers and many more type of jobs,

out west as we've learned in previous sucks at this time and earlier than this time. Like it wasn't impossible. I mean, yes, it would have been substantially easier with the ads of assistance and funding, but not impossible. But Lizzy Borden just didn't seem remotely interested in that. She's, I'm not even right about it.

She just seemed like a brat. Perhaps she was a lesbian. Maybe that's why she didn't want to get married. That is a theory we'll discuss later. But yeah, in many ways, it just seems like an 1892. Her and sister Emma just kind of perpetually moody teenagers trapped in 32 and 41 year old bodies. Man, 41, two doing that.

I'm 41, I can't imagine living with my mom like right now Mother, please Would you just make me a shepherds pie with no cheddar on the tots like I asked for you know what tether does to my tell me mom And not too much salt I I can solve my own dinner. I'm not a baby and for the thousands time Please understand I had to finish my game of Fortnite before I come upstairs for dinner. It's not about me, Moths.

There are other people on my team, depending on me. Anyway, oh my God, please. Oh, that sounds like this is a horrible reality. But back to 1892, in May of 1892, not indulgent enough father, Andrew Jackson-Borden, does something pretty weird. He kills these pigeons in his barn. These like these pigeons that were like Lizzie's pets with a hatchet. He believed they were

causing local children to come onto his property in order to hunt the pigeons. And Lizzie did not care for this. He was known to be very, very fond of animals. She would later donate almost all of Andrew's money that had passed to her when he died to a local animal shelter when she herself passed away. And she'd recently built a roost for the pigeons and was extremely upset, the dad killed him. So upset that a family argument erupted in July of 1892 that led both sisters to taking extended vacations in nearby New Bedford.

Just father, you murdered my pigeons father, you murdered them. Did you pay to keep them alive? Did you pay for the materials to build their rules? Did you pay to feed them? No, I did. They're my pigeons, weren't they? You want your own pigeons? You get a job. You pay for them Sure, I could have given them away or obviously I let them go, but I I Chosed to need to see whack them to death with a hatchet because I look and listen my pigeons my rules Your via father Also interesting note that Andrew I did kill them with a hatchet considering three months later

He would be killed with the hatchet by the same woman possibly possibly who cared about these pigeons Right is that why he died? I mean could it have been over pigeons? It is possible. I learned about the whole pigeon situation. Thanks to today's sponsor the great courses plus That's right time suck is brought to you by the Great Courses Plus. The Great Courses Plus has a course called Forensic History, Crimes, Fraud and Scandals. And the firey first lecture, only 29 minutes long, is called Lizzy Borden and the Menendez Brothers. And the lecture began for the discussion of Lizzy Borden, presented by Professor Elizabeth,

a Murray PhD. She's fantastic. She's a forensic anthropologist and professor of biology at Mount St. Joseph University, participated in hundreds of forensic investigations, been an expert on countless television shows, won tons of awards. She's but one of so many great teachers

on the great courses plus, and she told me about Lizzie Borden, and she told me about how in 1891, the year before the Axe murders, there had been a break in at the Borden residence where only Emma and Lizzie and the living maid bridge at were home, having a broad daylight, just like the murders would later. The only things taken were about $50 and some Abby jewelry. The police were called, but then a few weeks later, Mr. Borden asked the police to stop their investigation. Why? Well, historians strongly believe that Andrew

realized that Lizzie herself was the thief. She was a known thief. She was known to be a shoplifter in town. To the point shopkeepers were actually just told to quietly bill her father when they saw her take stuff. So she was a bit of a nut. Overly indulge nut. I highly recommend watching or listening to this lecture from the the great courses plus to get that much more out of today's suck. And when you check out more lectures from the forensic history course, you'll have a much better appreciation for all of our true crime episodes like next week's chessboard killer suck.

So with the great courses plus, you'll get unlimited access to stream this and any of their other thousands of lectures learn about anything that interests you. People, places, events throughout history, scientific breakthroughs, even how to draw or take better photos. Watch your list anytime anywhere with the Great Courses Plus app. You're going to love the Great Courses Plus and now you can get a special, you know, free month of unlimited access to start your free month trials. Sign up through the Great Courses Plus dot com slash time suck. Sign up today and be sure to check out forensic history only at the great courses plus dot com slash time suck. I also learned in this course about a dark,

lesser known second verse to the Lizzy Board and nursery rhyme. You know, we take this suck off with in this course that Lizzy Board and took and asked gave her mother 40 wax. When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41 and then there's this. I didn't know about it. So close your door and lock and latch it because here comes Lizzie with her hatchet. Ah, dark one. Look at that little extra knowledge nugget. Come and straight from the Great Courses Plus. Link in today's episode description. Also on the sponsor page in the app and on the TimeSuck website. And now back to the boardens. There were other tensions within the boarden family in 1892,

mostly relating to money. Andrew was gifted in real estate to various members of his wife Abbie's very well-connected family, including Abbie's sister, and this sent Emma and Lizzie into a real spoiled rich kid little tizzy. Emma and Lizzie demanded to have some rental properties given to them as well. It's not fair, daddy.

And their father gave, check this out, this is great. Their father gave them the home they lived in before their mother died. Technically, they purchased it from their father for a dollar. A dollar he undoubtedly had given them since neither one of them worked. And then, a few weeks before the murders, they sold this back to their father for $5,000. equivalent to about $136,000 today. So basically, they each made $68,000 for being whiny. And really, having 68 grand was extra nice for them because they didn't have any bills.

You know, room and boards paid for, the whole lives of the paid for, dad's 70, not going to live forever. So they knew they had more money coming to them soon. You know, they boards paid for the whole lives of paid for. Dad's 70, not gonna live forever. So they knew they had more money coming to them soon. You know, they're doing all right. But now dad's starting to give some of his other properties to wait other people who are not named, you know, Lizzie or Emma. So I'm guessing this is making them a little nervous about their inheritance.

You know, another possible murder motive for sure. Well, a week before the murders, the end of July 1892, Lizzie stayed in a local boarding house and fall river for four days after she came home from New Bedford. Remember, she's pissed about those patients. Still mad with daddy and set mommy. Also the week before the murders, the entire family gets sick, you know, or the few days before the murders, right?

When everybody is back home. Also the living maid Bridget, she gets sick. Abby visits a neighbor who is a doctor the week before her death, complaining that she thought they may have all been poisoned. The doctor assumed it was something they'd eaten. Lizzie told another neighbor in front of Alice that she thought someone had poisoned their milk.

She said she'd seen a strange man hanging around the house and barn recently. On August 3rd, 1892, the day before the murders of Andrew and Abby, John Vincent Morse, Emma and Lizzie's maternal uncle visits and is invited to stay for a few days to discuss business matters with Andrew. And there are theories that this visit could have led to the murders. John visited with the boardens frequently in the two years leading up to the murders and it was not uncommon for him to show up for unplanned overnight visits.

He was a short train right away. Didn't always send word ahead when he came to see Andrew. A week before the tragedy, Andrew had been in contact with John about a man who qualified to manage the family's Swansea farm. Andrew insisted that John could come talk to him in person and on the afternoon of August 3rd, 1892,

John arrived without luggage or changed a clothes at the boarding home. His arrival occurred just as the couple was finishing their dinner. While some bored and enthusiastic have painted John's visit as mysterious, and John has been a possible suspect, odds are the two men just wanted to catch up on business. At the trial in 1893, John even produced on the witness stand Andrews letter that had called him to fall river that day. Document that was promptly appropriated by district attorney Noughten, you know,

Okay. Document that was promptly appropriated by district attorney, Nellton, you know, yeah, it was a red and cord, everybody's time. John had also wanted to do some oxen trading in Swansea. Andrew asked him to fetch some eggs from their farm while he was over there invited his brother-in-law back for supper. John declined, hoping to catch up a catch this evening meal with another relative in Swansea. He hurried to Kirby Stables, went about his business across forever, returning at 845. That evening, just as Andrew was setting down with his newspapers in the sitting room.

And as the two men talked, Lizzie Borden returned from a visit with her friend, Alice Russell. But her uncle and dad did not see her come in. Instead, they just heard the door closed and footsteps, race upstairs, and retreat to Lizzie's bedroom. And the two men continued their conversation. And there has been some speculation that Lizzie, whose room was just over the sitting room, could have heard their talk through open windows. And this speculation has led some to theorize that Lizzie overheard some secret business,

which she was not supposed to be privy to, and that the news provoked in her a murderous rage that led to a premeditated act of violence. Now, this is pure speculation. Whatever she heard or didn't hear, by 10 o'clock PM, the two men have retired to their respective bedrooms, with John settling down in the guest room in the Northwest corner of the house.

This was the room Abby was to be found slaughtered in the very next afternoon. Lizzie would later primarily stick to the story that some enemy had killed her father. She would say that it was probably some enemy he had made through business dealings and who could this enemy be? Well, Lizzie names her name and her initial inquest was a police investigators.

Actually, actually she only named one name and then she also mentioned some mysterious anger man she couldn't identify who supposedly visited her father a few weeks earlier roughly. Real or convenient product of her imagination to give the police and then later the jury another suspect to consider. The following is a little bit of a from the transcript of the initial inquest. Well, they asked Lizzie, do you know of anybody that your father was on bad terms with? There was a man that came there that he had trouble with. I don't know who that man was. When I cannot locate the time exactly it was within two weeks. That is I don't know the date or day of the month.

Tell all you saw and heard. I did not see anything. I heard the bell ring and father went to the door and let him in. I did not hear anything for some time except just the voices. Then I heard the man say, I would like to have that place. I would like to have that store. Father said, I am not willing to let your business go in there. And the man said, I thought with your reputation

for liking money, you would let your store for anything. Father said, you are mistaken. Then they talked a while and then the voices were louder and I heard Father order him out and went to the front door with him. What did he say? He said he had stayed long enough and he would thank him to go. Did he say anything about coming again? No, sir. Did your father say anything about coming again? Or did he? No, sir, have you any idea who that was? No, sir. I think it was a man from out of town because he said he was going home to see his partner. Have you had any efforts made to find him? We had a detective. That is all I know. You have not found him. Not that I know of. You can't

give us any other idea about it. Nothing but what I've told you. Besides that, do you know of anybody that your father had bad feelings towards or who had bad feelings towards your father I know of one man who has not been friendly with him. They have not been friendly for years who mr. Here I'm see mr. Here I'm see Harrington What relation is he to him? He is my father's brother-in-law your mother's brother My father's only sister married mr. Harrington. Anybody else that was on bad terms with your father or that your father was on bad terms with? Not that I know of. So, I don't know.

So, you know, she's a lot of vague answers now. Now, let's go to the day of the murders. So, she's now, she's been, there's possibilities like, is it some mystery man, what's going on? Are there people mad at him? I'll comment more on it later. I don't think so. You'll see that her testimony is kind of all over the place

and she contradicts herself. It seems like bullshit to me, in my guts. Now let's go to the day of the murders. August 4th, 1892. Abby and Andrew Borden murdered in their home that morning. Abby murdered between 9 a.m. and 10 30 a.m. Andrew murdered between 10 30 and 11 10 a.m. Brother and law John Morse had slept in the guest room as we said the night before and

Abby had went up that morning to make the bed after he left. Abby was facing her killer when she was attacked based on the evidence that she was struck first on the side of the head with the hatchet, forming a cut just above her ear. She didn't have to be face, but there's a good chance. Then she probably they think she turned fell face down on the floor, after which point her killer struck her many times delivering 17 additional direct hits to her head. To the back of her head, odds are she didn't live past the first blow or first few blows, just Jesus man.

18 hits to the fucking head with an axe, direct shots. To me, that seems like either the work of some ax, love and serial killer or a crime of passion. You know, in the sense that somebody like, you know, you're attacked by someone who knows you to build up that much anger towards you. Or someone I guess who just really loves the mashing people's heads in with an ax.

Now, were there any other ax murders and fall river? Massachusetts around the time of the board and murders? Yes, there actually was and this would come up a trial, but it shouldn't have in my opinion and you'll see why here. On the morning of May 31st 1893, less than a year after Lizzie's father and stepmother were killed with an axor, you know, hatchet, the mutilated remains of 22 year old birth of Manchester are found in her home

on New Boston Road in Fall River. She been hacked 23 times in the back of her school and or between the back of her school and the base of the back of her school. So 23 shots around the back of her head. Her head was obliterated. Also like the board murders, the crime occurred in broad daylight, but unlike the board murders, there was a defensive wounds. So, Justin, she put up a fight with her attacker.

Also, unlike the board and murders, her watch and a purse containing some money was stolen. And unlike the board and killings, the murder weapon was found at the crime scene for sure. The bloody accident is laying outside by the wood pile. Still very strange, right? Seems like the cases could be easily connected, right? Probably not. The man who was convicted of killing birth a portuguese hired hand over husband name hosea de mello didn't even arrive in the united states

uh... probably to mail hosea de mail uh... until april eighteen ninety three so he he couldn't have committed the board and murders he was not even in the country however uh... the evidence used to convict him was kind of flimsy. The prosecution's key piece of evidence was a testimony of the owner of a local store who claimed that Dimeo bought a new pair of shoes from him shortly after the murder and tried to pay with a trade dollar and a plug to half dollar, which were some distinctive coins known to be in the purse stolen from Bertha. So I don't know, maybe he did it. Or I guess

there is the possibility that some unknown axe murderer killed all three people and got away with it. And I don't know of any other future ax murders or previous ax murders occurring in fall river. Nothing that I can find through a lot of a lot of looking. So while we may never know conclusively who killed Andrew and Abby, we do know for sure they were killed with this hatchet. Here are the results of Abby's autopsy. It says autopsy of Abby D. Borden age 64 years, Thursday, August 11th, 1892, 1235 PM conducted one week after death. The autopsy performed by W.A. Dolan Medical Examiner, assisted by Dr. F.W. Draper and witnessed by F.W. Draper of Boston and J. H. Liri of Fall River.

Da da da da, body, uh, that of a female very well nourished and a very flashy 64 years of age. Uh, wow. What a clinical and pleasant way to call someone fat. Uh, you know, the doctor, would you say that, uh, Mrs. Borden was chubby or fat? Heavens, no, heavens to bet. See, I would never say such coarse words about Mrs. Borden. I'm offended by your very question. Fat? No. Oh, how dare you.

She was, well, she, she was very well nourished. She didn't, she didn't miss a lot of meals. Didn't push away a lot of plates. She was, in a word, I would say fleshy. Maybe two words, she was very fleshy, one might say. She had approximately double the necessary amount of flesh to live for a woman of her frame and height. I wonder if very fleshy spins her as an adult film category, by the way.

Uh, sorry, I'm gonna move on. Anyway, Mrs. Borden, diving back into the official report now, five feet, three inches in height, no stiffness of death, owing to decomposition, which was far advanced. abdomen had already been opened, artificial teeth, upper jaw, no marks of violence on front of body. On back of body was first an incised wound, two and two and a half inches in length,

and two and a half inches in depth. Oh no, and two and a half inches in depth The lower angle of the wound was over her spine and four inches below the junction of her neck with body and extending Thence upward and outward to the left on the forehead and bridge of nose with three contused wounds Those on the forehead being oval lengthwise with body when I first read that last part, I thought it said confused. My brain just turned into that, just like three confused words. Contused means a wound that doesn't break the skin, like a rather causes like bruises, which makes a lot more sense that a lot more sense that a confused wound. Just one of those wounds down the face doctor, well, those wounds are confused. They can't decide if the laceration's or contusions or burns or bone breaks or even peppercuts. Those

particular wounds are done within a bag of rocks. Second, the contusion on bridge of nose was 1 inch in length by 1.5 inch in width. Third, on the forehead, was 1 inch above left eyebrow, 1 1 1 fourth inches long by three eighth inch in width. The other one and one fourth inches above eyebrow and one and half inches long by quarter inch wide. On the head, there were 18 distinct wounds, incising and crushing and all but four were on the right side. Counting from left to right with the face downwards,

the wounds was follows. One was a glancing scalp wound, two inches in length by one and one half inches 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1. situated 3 inches above the left ear hole. Cut from above downwards and did not penetrate the skull. 2. Exactly on top of the skull 1 inch long penetrating into it but not through the skull. 3. Was parallel to number 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 and penetrating through the skull. And it just goes on like that to describe a total of 18 different blows. Doctors would say that the first blow likely killed her.

And then the rest of the report breaks the body into different sections to describe the wounds like a head. There was a hole in the right side of skull four and a half to five and one quarter inches through which the brain evacuated in fluid condition being entirely decomposed. Jesus. Oh, sorry to anyone trying to eat right now, or listen, man, my God, that is the kind of sense that makes you give up on a ball of oatmeal.

The brain evacuated in fluid condition being entirely decomposed. Check, please. I'm done. I'm done eating now. Chest. The chest and abdomen were opened by one incision from chin to pubis.

Now this is because they just taken out the stomach to have it examined for poison. Lungs bound down behind, but normal, hot, normal, abdomen. Stomach and part of bowel had been removed, yeah, again. They just removed, yeah, they removed, or yeah, subject to examine her organs. Now back to the timeline for a moment, they didn't find anything actually by the way too.

They found the, they didn't find any trace of poison in their systems. So Andrew and Morse went to the city room after breakfast where they'd chatted for an hour, the morning of the murders August 4th, around 7.30 AM. And then Morse left to visit a relative at 8.48 AM. Andrew went to, for a morning walk at a little after 9. A.M. he returned at 10.30 a.m. possibly as late as 10.45 a.m.

but his key was not unlock in the door. So he knocked to get someone inside to let him in. Bridget Maggie Sullivan, the board and live and made tried to unjam the door. It couldn't and curse after which point Bridget testified that she heard Lizzie laughing from upstairs. Now this is a significant detail because Abby's body was visible through the gap between the bed and the floor when viewed climbing the stairs, but at the top of the stairs, her body would have been hidden by the bed.

She had to have been killed before Andrew got home. You know, it just, I mean, to make sense that Andrew would hear someone in the house being killed with an axe if he was home um And then she know she she she she should put so if Lizzie would have been upstairs on the way upstairs She would have seen the body Lizzie would later testify that her father asked where Astor where Abby was when he returned home and Lizzie replied that a messenger came with a letter asking Abby to visit a sick friend Lizzie stated that she helped remove her father's boots and brought him his slippers before he lay

down on the sofa for a nap. However, in the photo of him, dead, which you can find online, from the crime scene, who shoes are visible on his body. So that's not good. That doesn't look good compared to her testimony. And who is this messenger? This is one of the biggest things in the story to me that just makes me think that Lizzie Borden was completely full of shit and that she did it. What friend of Abbey's was sick? This is never revealed, which is incredibly suspicious. If this had happened, then Abbey would have been in a friend's house, right?

That morning, instead of the truth, which was as she stayed home and got murdered. So it seems like Lizzie's lying through her teeth when she talks about some mysterious messenger in a sick friend that would never be revealed. Also, you know, Abby can claim to spend a lot of time in the morning, the murders in the, or I'm sorry, Lizzie can claim to spend a lot of time in the morning of the murders in the barn behind the house where the pigeons used to be. Do it doing what? Like who just hangs out in an abandoned pigeon coop? Investigators

would examine the barn loft that hot August day and say that the heat was stifling and that no one in the right mind, actually, that's a quote, no one in the right mind would spend any time of their that morning. Also, Lizzie would tell investigators that she'd gone up into the barn to look for lead to make sinkers for an upcoming fishing trip that no one but Lizzie knew about. Also, investigators report that there were no footprints in the loft, just a bunch of dust and cobwebs didn't look like anyone had been up there in a while. That looks really bad.

The more you learn about the Lizzie and the testimony from both her and others about her behavior and whereabouts, I mean, the guilt you're she looks. Now to be fair, Lizzie was not the only person at home at the time of the murders. There was also 26 year old Irish made Bridget Sullivan. And Lizzie had told Bridget that there was a department store sale and gave her permission to go to it that morning, but Bridget didn't feel well.

So she chose to take a nap in her bedroom instead. And her room was directly above Andrew Jackson's room. And Andrew Jackson's board. Bridget also known as Maggie to Lizzie and Emma, claimed she was in her third floor bedroom, resting on about 11 10 a.m. She heard Lizzie call out from downstairs. Maggie, come quick, father's dead. Someone came and killed him.

Andrew is lying prone in the couch in the downstairs parlor where he had been struck, you know, 10 or 11 times with a hatchet like weapon. One of his eyeballs have been split cleanly in two, which seems to indicate, along with his body position, that he was probably asleep when he was attacked. Since if you're awake, you would most likely, you know, turn your face when the axe is coming for it. When Lizzie and Bridget arrive, he's still bleeding out. So it's safe to say, say he was killed somewhere close to 11 a.m. considering he hadn't gotten home until 10 30 10 45 a.m. And needed time to settle in and fall asleep for him to end up with his eyeball cut cleanly into. And Abby had been killed a little before 10 30 a.m. at the very latest.

Right. The corner placed her time of death. You know, somewhere between 9 a.m. and 10 30 a.m. and considering no one had seen her since sometimes shortly before 9 a.m. You know, it wasn't like her to spend all morning quietly upstairs. Common sense dictates she probably died closer to 9 a.m. than to 10 30 a.m. Which means that the killer savagely and literally bashed her brains in with an X. And then if it's not Lizzie or I guess Bridget, just hides in the house for at least, you know, I don't know, half an hour,

but probably closer to two hours. And then pops out and bashes in her father's head. And then vanishes, leaving no bloody footprints, no bloody murder weapon. No one saw some bloody person walking down the streets and fall over that day. So easy to see why Lizzie ends up getting arrested. Now here's Andrew's autopsy report. This is his.

The doctor described him, body that of a man well nourished, I guess the corner did. Body that of a man well nourished, or I guess the corner did, body that of a man well nourished. Here we go with their strange corners speaking again, man. Interesting that they went with well nourished instead of the very well nourished they used with Abby. So, you know, I guess not chubby, but not skinny either. I hope some corner makes a note

that my corpse appears well nourished someday. That seems to be about the best you can hope for. Actually, fit in muscular, fit in just nourished enough. That's what I want to do. Spend more time trying to develop a fit in muscular, just nourished enough corpse. I wonder what the worst corpse condition is, maybe extremely overfit. Body's out of a man, extremely overfit. Extremely flashy, excessively flashy.

Man possessed and abundance of flesh. Okay, so back to Andrew's report. Says age 70 years, five feet, 11 inches in height, no stiffness of death on account of decomposition, which was far advanced. Hernia on right side, Addemann had already been opened, artificial teeth and upper jaw.

There were no marks of violence on body, but on left side of head and face, there were numerous incised wounds. And one contused wound penetrating into the brain. Ah, again, first time I saw this, brain reads confused, even though we just went over that. How do these people have so many confused wounds? Who was so confused about these wounds? Ah, me, I am. I'm the only one confused about the conditions.

The wounds to Mr. Andrew Jackson, boredom, beginning at the nose, and to the left were as follows. One, incised wound, four inches long, beginning at lower border of left nasal bone, and reaching to lower edge of lower jaw. Cutting through nose, he's upper lip, lower lip, and slightly into bone of upper and lower jaw. Two, began at internal angle of eye and extended to one and three eighth bone of upper and lower jaw. 2. Began at internal angle of eye in extended to 1 and 3-8 inches of lower edge of jaw, beginning 4 and a half inches in length, cutting through the tissues and into bone. 3. Began at lower border of lower eyelid, cutting through the tissues and into the cheekbone,

2 inches long, and 1 and 3-8 inches deep. cheekbone two inches long and one in three eighth inches deep. Four began two inches above upper eyelid half inch external to wound number three, then downward and outward through middle of left eyebrow. Through the eyeball cutting it completely in halves and exizing a piece of the skull one and a half inches in length by half inch in width length of wound four and a half inches and it just goes on like that for six more wounds. And like Abby, or with Abby, the first wound probably killed him. And here are the summaries of the regions, or each of the regions of the body.

Head, right half of top of skull removed, brain found to be completely decomposed and in fluid condition. Chest and abdomen, opened by one incision, extending from neck to pubis, right lung glued to ribs in front, left lung, normal, heart normal. Abdomin, you know, everything normal. And then except for some stuff taken out to be tested for poison, which again, you know, nothing was found. You can look at photos taken of the Andrew and Abby, or taken of Andrew and Abby at the

crime scene. It's pretty brutal as you would imagine. I mean, again, their heads have been just fucking annihilated. Abby struck 18 times with a hatchet. Andrew stuck a struck 10 or 11 times total overkill with both no defensive wounds. Andrew literally did not see the attacker coming. Someone snuck up behind Abby or, you know, possibly as you know, she might have turned around for a second and seen them as they just smacked her with that first blow and then just rain terror down upon her. And then again, you like waited what for half an hour to two hours, you know, and then you know, attack somebody else. Also interesting, nothing was stolen from the board and residents that day. No signs of forced entry.

And while I clearly wasn't there and did not see Lizzie do it, it seemed like if she didn't do it, whoever did it, must have been someone, you know, welcome in the home. A family member, a family friend, maybe Bridget perhaps, although she was never considered a serious suspect and no historians point to her as the murder, maybe possibly the ghosts of those murdered pigeons all working together, pulled it off. A bunch of shadow pigeons with little shadow hatchets, terrifying. No, but you know, the board is technically, I keep saying hatchet and axe. Yeah, they were not struck with an axe, even though that's what the nursery rhyme say.

It was a hatchet, it was the murder weapon. It's a smaller axe. Yeah. So, so, okay, back to the timeline, 11 10 a.m. Lizzy screams, back there upon scene or dead father, Bridget's the maid, aka Maggie, rushes over in Seas Andrew and then runs out of the house and across the street to alert a doctor when it's happened.

And this is interesting, not just a Bridget. Why was she called Maggie sometimes? Well, because the previous, previous maid's name was Maggie. That's gonna make you feel good. You gotta know you're truly just another servant to somebody that they make, you know, they make it very clear they don't give a shit about you as a human being when they're just so lazy they call you the name

of the previous mate. And she had worked for them for quite some time from what I gathered. And they just didn't feel like learning the name Bridges, you know? They didn't even bother calling her like new Maggie or Maggie do. Anyway, Bridgie gets the doctor, Dr. Seabury Warren Bowen, who rushes over to see the bodies. What a name. You can call me Dr. Warren, if that is what you feel comfortable with, or you can call me with my friends, call me Dr. Seabury Warren Bowen Reverend Dr. Seabury Warren Bowen, the fourth S. Quyle PhD Notary Public. Anyway, the police were not far behind Dr. Bowen. One of the other neighbors having alerted the police after hearing Lizzie screams and

seeing Bridget run screaming out of the house to get Dr. Bowen. The police arrived approximately 11.45 AM. Some speculate Dr. Bowen may have helped Lizzie get away with the murder. He may have been fond of her. He had taken her to church when her parents were out of town unshap around scandal. He may have peaked at her bosom once or twice during the church service that perverse animal the horn is scallywack. But seriously, he wandered in and out of the crime scene. Just wandered in out back and forth between his house and the board house numerous

times that day. Actually, a fair amount of of neighbors would wander just in and out of the crime scene that day, which would cause further problems at the trial. The police work in the board in case was an absolute shit show. They were just not prepared for a crime like this. When Lizzie was questioned by a police said day, her answer is very odd. Like I said earlier, sometimes contradictory. She first reported having her to groan, scraping noise, or some kind of distress call before she entered the house.

But then two hours later, she said she heard nothing. And she entered the house not knowing anything was wrong. Those are very, very different answers, like extremely different answers. Here's another example of Lizzie Strange confused answers taken straight from the notes of the initial police inquest. When did Moss come here first? I don't mean this visit.

I mean, as a visitor, John V. Moss. Do you mean this day that he came and stayed all night? No. Was this visit the first to your house? That he has been in the East a year or more. Since he has been in the East, has he been in the habit of coming to your house? Yes, he came in anytime he wanted to.

Before that, had he been at your house before he came east? Yes, he has been here. If you remember the winter that the river was frozen over and they went across, he was here that winter, some 14 years ago, was it not? I am not answering questions, but I ask you them. I don't remember the date, he was here that winter. Has he been here since? He has been here once since.

I don't know whether he has or not since. How many times this last year has he been at your house? None at all to speak of. Nothing more than a night or two at a time. whether he has or not since. How many times this last year has he been at your house? None at all to speak of. Nothing more than a night or two at a time. Oh my God, what an infuriating, maddening person to talk to. Does your uncle come over often? He never comes over.

Well, that's not true, is it? Considering he came over just last night. Is that the only time he's ever visited? Yes, but also maybe other times. So, he has come over before then. No, never. But yes, occasionally he starts by. Dear God, Lizzie, which is it? Never? Or sometimes?

Uh, always. He always comes over. He lives with us. He lives with you. Really? No, not really. But you just said he did. But it wasn't what I meant What did you mean Lizzie? I meant he always never sometimes comes over. Oh, also I like pickles. They're incredibly crunchy for something so wet Yes, you really was just odd. I mean in this is there are so many examples I could have used there of like her There are so many examples I could have used there of like her answers in the inquest, her answers on trial, they're all over the fucking map. Like contradicts herself continually. There's like more question, how often did he come to spend a night or two?

Really, I don't know. I am away so much by myself. Your last answer is that you don't know how much he had been here because you had been away yourself so much. Yes. That is true the last year or much he had been here because you had been away yourself so much. Yes. That is true. The last year or since he has been east, I have not been away the last year so much. But other times I have been away when he has been here.

Do you I understand you to say that this is his last visit before this one was 14 years ago? No, he has been here once between the two. Yeah. And just on and on and on. So that's fun. Was she being intentionally a confusing contradictory? Who notes?

So much about Lizzie is not known. Lizzie told police she thought her stepmother had gone to visit a sick friend, as we said, return back to the house. Asked if someone could go look for her, seemingly not knowing she was dead. Bridgette in a neighbor, Mrs. Churchill, where halfway up the stairs, their eyes leveled

with the floor when they looked into the guest room and saw Abby dead on the floor. This of course is after Bridgette had run across the street to fetch the doctor when the doctor came over, he initially thought just Andrew was dead. Now we're discovering Abby is dead. Most of the police who interviewed Lizzie said they didn't like her attitude that she seemed to calm and to poise. And obviously contradictory.

And also this is very unfortunate. No one thoroughly checked her for blood stains. Not really. The glance drove her. You know, they looked at exposed skin, which wasn't unfortunate. No one thoroughly checked her for blood stains. Not really. They glanced her over. You know, they looked at an exposed skin, which wasn't much. No thorough inspection. It just didn't feel proper for them to do so.

She was a young maiden of some means. And this all happened in the last decade of the Victorian era that had begun back in 1837 and especially sexist period of history. While women of the lower classes were joining the workforce, you know, due to the industrial era, women of the middle and upper classes in the Victorian area were viewed as only domestic creatures. Their duty was above all to be chased, virginal, a master of manners, proper etiquettes, a hostess and lady of the manner and a mother, you

know, a dutiful wife and mother. The moral center of the home and her husband's greatest champion and basically, basically a faithful servant of the husband and these women were not seen as being morally capable of a crime like the board an ax murder some Victorian area Christian woman just couldn't do that it was just inconceivable for Lizzie to do what she actually probably did do women also weren't being seen as being intellectually capable of planning something like those murders. You know most police all of whom were men all of whom were men of lower means than the, the boardens, no matter what they, privately, privately may have suspected, would not publicly aggressively

push to tear through her things or thoroughly inspect her person for evidence. Just wasn't proper. Lizzy Borden, if she did kill her parents, was one of the few women to, to greatly benefit from being looked at as a weak and inferior creature by the men of her day. And maybe there was, you know, blood, unless you even visible blood that the investigators just couldn't see, because, you know,

in addition to not having modern forensic and investigative technology back then, contacts hadn't been invented, and the people couldn't see shit. Which brings me to today's final sponsor. TimeSug is brought to you by SimpleContacts. SimpleContacts lets you conveniently renew your contact lens prescription, reorder your contacts from anywhere in minutes, right from the app.

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Get $20 off your contacts at simplecontacts.com slash time suck 20 or enter your code time suck 20 at checkout that simple contacts.com slash time suck 20 or enter code time suck 20 at checkout to get $20 off your contacts, link in the episode description or push the simple contact button in the app or click on it at timestalkpodcast.com to go straight to the deal. And now back to board, those 19th century police did do a search of Lizzie's room, but only an initial inspection didn't uncover anything. They didn't really probably look that hard.

If they only had those fucking contacts at the trial, they admitted to not doing a complete search partially also because Lizzie was not feeling well. She asked if, they admitted to not do any complete search, partially also because Lizzie was not feeling well. She asked if she could go to her room, she wasn't feeling well because basically could they not bother her. The prosecution did seem to criticize them for that lack of fall through there. Had a man been suspected? Oh, he would not have been able to pull off the old. Can you come back later and inspect my room for evidence that I just killed my parents? I'm a little ill and I would like to lie down for a while and get rid of evidence. I truly believe that yeah, had it literally been a man, man,

she would have been, she would have been hanged. In the basement, police found two hatches, our hatchet, excuse me, two axes. And a hatchet with a broken handle, which was suspected of being the murder weapon because the break looked fresh and also one of the axes had hair and blood on it, but they ruled it was cow blood. I don't know how they could make a conclusive determination of that without being able to differentiate cow blood from human blood at the time. Also the ash and dust on the broken hatchet, which people did suspect to be the murder weapon, appeared smeared on to make it look like the hatchet had just been in the basement for a while when in fact it could have been used very, very recently. Jesus, man, that's very damning.

And then probably because they didn't want to bother two young maidens who had just lost their parents, none of these items are removed from the house. Only later is the broken hatchet taken. And of course, fingerprint identification, not a thing, so prints not taken from any of the weapons or elsewhere, just, you know, I said it so many times you're on the suck, man, so much easier

to get away with shit back then. It's a police find that axe today find that hatchet today it's brought in for testing and so are you. And if one tiny invisible like speck of your parents blood is on your clothes and it's on the axe your fingerprints are on the axe uh overwhelming odds you're not sleeping in your own bed that night. Uh that night police are stationed around the house one police officer reported seeing Lizzie entered the basement, look at the pales containing her parents' bloody clothes. That actually was never explained. I don't know what was going on there.

Why weren't those clothes brought in? You know, maybe search them for something, some kind of evidence of an intruder's, I don't know, hair or DNA or something else. People had no way of assessing that again. God dang it! 1892 technology. You made it so hard on police investigators.

On August 6th, two days after the murders, a police officer in the mayor pay Lizzie a visit, explain Jesus' suspect in the murders, and then later stay home, stay just at the open crime scene. Give her plenty of time to reflect on her defense and destroy lots of evidence if need be. Like the dress, she was probably wearing the day,

she murdered her parents, seriously. The next morning, August 7th, Alice Russell, a neighbor, enters the kitchen to find Lizzie tearing up a dress. Lizzie said that she was putting it in the fire because it was covered in paint. Unknown whether she was wearing this dress or in the murders, but probably, probably. And at first, I thought, maybe this was common. Maybe people just burned their clothes back then. And I actually googled that people burned their clothes a lot in the 19th century. And then both jangles flew across the sucked dungeon and slapped me right out of my chair. He said it's good to be curious, but it's bad to be dumb.

And then he growled and then you know, he stared at me to I peed a little and then he went back to watch in a old Charles Bronson death wish movies, and occasionally giving me a dismissive cyclist. No, it does not appear. This is how people got rid of clothes when they no longer wanted to wear them back down. That wasn't common. You weren't like, ah, I don't feel like wearing this anymore. So just let's tear it up and burn it. Seems that while local governments were just starting to take responsibility for waste management

in the 1890s, prior to that, people were burning paper waste and burning other types of waste and remote areas of the property. But burning one dress, especially not as part of some garbage day burning ritual, very suspicious, not what people did, especially under these circumstances. Her neighbor, Alice, told her that burning the dress looked really, really bad. When Alice was later questioned by police and told them about Lizzie burning the dress, this is what prompted the judge, Judge Blazile of a second district court of Massachusetts to charge Lizzie with murder.

And then Alice would never be friendly again with Lizzie after the whole dress burning fiasco. Lizzie, sister Emma would later testify that it was her idea to burn the dress, not Lizzie's. She would maintain Emma would that she believed and Lizzie's innocence rests of her life, but supposedly she confessed to relatives on her deathbed that she did lie about the dress during the trial to help her sister out.

She was just worried that that would look really bad and she'd be found guilty and hanged. And she didn't want that. I'm sure partly because Lizzie is the only immediate family member she now has left. Well, the inquest hearing takes place on August 8th. Lizzie's request to have her family attorney present is refused under the state statute that said an inquest could be held in private. Lizzie also had been given regular doses of morphine to calm her nerves. So it is possible to summer her confusion, her contracting answers, you know, could come

from the morphine. I don't know though. I mean, maybe you know, things things slowly, but it's like she was beyond confused. I hear some more of her testimony. She's asked, what had you in mind when you said you were on the stairs, is Maggie let your father in? The other day, someone came here and she let them in and I was on the stairs. I don't know whether the morning before or when it was.

What the fuck? Just at one, at one point in your life when someone came in, you were on the stairs. So you're like, I must have been on the stairs because that's where I am when Maggie tends to open the door. Like that's nonsense. You understood I was asking you exactly and explicitly about this fatal day though. Yes, sir. I now call your attention to the fact that you had specifically told me you had gone upstairs and had been there about five minutes when the bell rang and were on your way down and were on the stairs when Maggie let your father in that day. Yes,

I said that. And then I said I did not know whether I was on the stairs when Maggie let your father in that day. Yes, I said that and then I said I did not know whether I was on the stairs or in the kitchen. Now how will you have it? I think as nearly as I know, I think I was in the kitchen. How long was your father gone? I don't know, so not very long. In hour, I should not think so. Will you give me the best story you can so far as your recollection serves you of your time while he was gone. I sprinkled my handkerchiefs and got my ironing board and took them in the dining room. I took the ironing board in the dining room and left the handkerchiefs in the kitchen on the table.

And whether I ate any cookies or not, I don't remember. Then I sat down looking at the magazine waiting for the flats to heat. Then I went in the sitting room and got the Providence Journal and took that into the kitchen. I don't recollect of doing anything else. Which did you read first, the journal or the magazine? The magazine. You told me you were reading the magazine when your father came back. I said in the kitchen, yes. Was that so? Yes, I took the journal out to read it, it had not read it. It was near me. You said a minute or two ago, you read the magazine a while and then went and got the journal and took it out to read.

I did, but I did not read it. I tried, I tried my flash then and went back to reading the magazine. I took the magazine up again, yes. So again, it's just like, I'm sure it's hard to recall like details. I don't have the best memory, but I would like to think that I wouldn't just give like, you know, constant, just contradictory answers, you know, like something happened like, where are you in the house? I believe I was in the hammock, take you to nap.

But yesterday you said you were mowing the front lawn. Oh, correct. I thought about the hammock then mode. Actually, now that I really think about it, I was having lunch down the street. You're having lunch down the street or were you in the hammock or you're mowing the lawn? I was in the restaurant, daydreaming about a hammock while remembering I should mow the street. You're having lunch out of the street or were you in the hammock or you're in the lawn? I was in the restaurant, daydreaming about a hammock while remembering nice should mode the lawn. Like it's just fucking nonsense. August 11th, the week after the murders, Lizzy is served with a warrant of arrest and jailed. However, the inquest testimony,

which most modern investigators take as the basis for her innocent, you know, for someone's innocent or guilt was ruled inadmissible at trial in June of 1893. So now the jury doesn't get to hear about the poison she tried to buy. For example, you know, the day before numerous other key points and all her weird contradictory statements. Why? Because her lawyer wasn't present during the inquest and the judge was weak. So the lawyer asked to have it dismissed because the lawyer wasn't there, even though in Massachusetts, you didn't have to have the attorney there legally.

So bunch of bullshit gets the inquest thrown out on June 5th, 1893, 10 months after the murders, the trial begins on June 5th. Yeah, new bedford. I'm guessing there is usually a good reason for these long waits, but it always feels terribly unfair to me for someone who's been charged with a crime, but not tried in court to have to sit in jail for months or years before their trial begins necessary evil, I guess, but God, there should be a legal limit. Like if the court can't fit you in six months, tops, well, then you get to go fucking home. Maybe they'll provide incentive for certain cases to fast track them.

If that's not practical, then we need to establish more courts, hire more judges until it is practical. Allocate some tax funds from somewhere else. Maybe go ahead and let some obscure but federally protected animal Too fragile to live for much longer on a zone anyway, just let that die. And this is for money on courts. Now I'm admittedly talking on my ass here, and half joking, but it is just terrifying to me.

The, you can be charged with a crime later found innocence. In some cases, obviously innocence, only to go home to a destroyed life because you've been sitting in a jail for fucking years while your house goes into foreclosure, your retirement accounts, you know, empty. And then the stigma of the trial makes you virtually unemployable, loses significant chunk of your freedom. And all you get after all that is essentially a, oops, sorry about that. She happens. Best luck. Any who's all the

prosecuting attorneys in the case where Josea M. Nolton, William H. Moody, defending Lizzie, Andrew V. Jennings, Melvin Adams, George Robinson, one of the first witnesses for the prosecution, Uncle John, the guy who Lizzie remembered that sometimes never always visited her father from time to time, or maybe never, or maybe coming a decade ago, or maybe earlier, or maybe more recent. Here's an excerpt from John's testimony. Lizzie seemed unusual the day before Andrew and Abby's murders. I don't want to accuse her outright of the heinous act, but her actions were peculiar.

She excused herself early from dinner, and then I found her near the pigeon coop. Out behind the house, shopping in a hatchet, mumbling to herself. When I inquired into why she was doing this, she simply stated, you'll see soon, you'll all see soon. Then, before I retired to my room that night, while conversing with both Andrew and Abbey in the library, Lizzie walked in giggling, and pointed once at her father, and then once at her stepmother, using her free hand to make a slashing motion across her throat. Andrew told me not to worry, said she'd be doing that for weeks, and I thought no more of it and went to bed As she returned to the bond to shop in her hatchet

Of course, of course you said it. You know, as if he didn't say that. She was still an innocent No, he said I had not seen Lizzie at all from the time of my arrival on Wednesday until I returned to the house on Thursday after the murders When I came back Mr. Sawyer was at the door and I think Bridget Sullivan Dr. Bone and two or three policemen were in the house and I think Mrs. Churchill and Mrs. Russell. Also testifying was the family made. Bridget Maggie Sullivan, here's a little what she said regarding the whereabouts of Lizzie between 9 a.m. and 10 30 a.m. when Abby was murdered. I didn't see Ms. Lizzie anywhere about.

I can't say exactly, but I think this was about 9 o'clock. Then I cleaned off my stove, went into the dining room and sitting room, shut the windows, I was going to wash, and went down to the cellar and got a pale to take some water. I didn't see anybody in the rooms. So she's walked all around the house, she's saying she doesn't see anybody there. I got a brush in the kitchen closet, filled my pale and took it outdoors. As I was outside, Lizzie board and appeared in the back entry and says, Maggie, are you going to wash the windows? I says yes. I says, you needn't lock the door, I entry and says, Maggie, are you going to wash the windows? I says, yes. I says, you need to lock the door.

I will be out around here, but you can lock it if you want to. I can get the brush, I can, excuse me, I can get the water in the barn. I went to the barn to get the handle for the brush. And this is very suspicious to me because, you know, as we already established when Andrew came home, the door is locked. So why is the door locked?

Like, there she's out, you know, it's like it doesn't make sense. Okay, and like, yeah, okay. Now here's additional testimony from Bridget regarding where Lizzie was from 1030 to 1110 when Andrew was being murdered. She said, I began to watch the window next to the front door, had not seen anyone since I saw Lizzie at the screen door. Then I heard like a person at the door was trying to unlock the door, but could not. So I went to the front door and unlocked it. The spring lock was locked. I unbolted the door and it was locked with a key. There were three locks. I said, push, push, ah! And

Ms. Lizzie laughed upstairs. Uh huh. Her father was out there on the doorstep. She was upstairs. And again, important because if Lizzie really went upstairs, good chance she would have seen Abby's body line on the floor. And again, what's with the door locking here? You know, clearly it seems unusual to have the door locked for a bridge in the situation because she's like, why is the door locked? Well, it's fucking locked probably because someone inside is doing some murdering.

I didn't want someone to walk in on the murdering. She must have been, she says, she must have been either in the entry or at the top of the stairs, I cannot tell which. This is when she was giggling. Mr. Borden and I didn't say, where does he came in. I went back to my window washing. He came into the sitting room and went into the dining room. He had a little parcel in his hand, same as the paper or a book. He sat on a chair at the end of the lounge.

Ms. Lizzie came downstairs and came to the front entry into the dining room, I suppose, to her father. All right. She's saying that she wasn't upstairs. I remember that test one earlier. I heard her ask her father if he had any mail, and they had some talk between them which I didn't understand, but I heard her tell her father that Mrs. Borden had a note and it gone out. This is that whole sick friend thing. The next thing I remember, Mr. Borden took a key off the mantle piece and went up the

back stairs. When he came downstairs again, I was finished in the sitting room and I took my hand-based and stepped out into the dining room. I began finished in the sitting room and I took my hand-basin and stepped out into the dining room. I began to wash the dining room windows. Then Ms. Lizzie brought an ironing board from the kitchen, put it on the dining room table and commenced to iron. She said, Maggie, are you going out this afternoon? I said, I don't know, I might and I might not.

I don't feel very well. She says, if you go out, be sure and lock the door. I have some more murdering to do. Uh, no, she said, if I go out, be sure to lock the door for Mrs. Borden has gone out on a sick call. And I might go out too. Uh, huh. She says, I, uh, Ms. Lizzy, who is sick, and she says, I don't know she had a note this morning must be in town. I finished my two windows. She went on ironing. Then I went in the kitchen, washed out some clothes, hung them behind the stove. Ms. Lizzy came out there and said, there is a cheap sale of dress goods at sergeants this afternoon at eight cents a yard.

I don't know that she said this afternoon, but today then I went upstairs to my room. I don't remember to have heard a sound of anyone about the house except those I named. Then I lay down in the bed. I heard the city hall bell ring and I looked at my clock and it was 11 o'clock. I wasn't drowsy no sleeping. In my judgment I think there was three or four minutes. I don't think I went to sleep at all. I heard no sound. I didn't hear the opening or closing of the screen door. I can hear that from my room if anyone is careless and slams the door. See, it hasn't sound good. The next thing was that Ms. Lizzie hollered Maggie. Come down. I said, what is the matter? She says, come down quick. Father's dead. Someone came in and killed him. This might be 10 or 15 minutes after the clock struck 11 as far as I can judge.

And this is like really damning testimony. Cause she's saying that she fucking hears anyone coming into the house and she heard no one come in the house. This goes back to the thing of someone apparently if it's not Lizzy based on this testimony, it's just hiding in the house, waiting to quietly kill somebody. And if it was someone like that, he had a bad business dealing with, I mean, wouldn't you think human nature? this guy would be like, you motherfucker, I can kill you now.

You know, this is something. Something other than saying nothing. So you're calm enough to say nothing to someone that you hate enough to kill them with an axe, but then hit them so many fucking times with the axe. I just don't see where that would happen ever. So again, a bridge is telling the truth. I mean, God, man, it seems like she's trying

to get Bridget out of the house. It seems very guilty. She seems very guilty here. You know, Bridget, her no one else come into the house. So now we've heard some testimony from the prosecution side here. Now let's check in with the defense. They're cross examination of Bridget.

Now here, they're trying to prove that someone else could have come into the house and murdered the boardents. And they ask, the screen door over the other side of the house was open, unlocked all that time. Yes, sir. Can you tell me any reason why a person should have could not have walked into the door and you not seen him?

So they say, see, not here. Why, of course, they could have. Now, this is so weak to me, but I get it. There was another door that was unlocked, so, someone could have very quietly wandered in, killed Abby while I'm guessing, covering themselves in blood. Then they could have hidden the guest room, just covered in blood, you know, and then you could have hacked Andrew to death, then just snuck out of the house covered in so much blood. And broad daylight, no neighbor notices. I mean, I guess they could have brought a change of clothes

and just what, casually changed clothes and someone else's house, you know, after fucking two murders, then leave. Also make no attempt to murder Lizzie or Bridget. Why wouldn't they kill them? That doesn't make any sense to me, you know? I mean, I guess in the world, there's hypotheticals, you know, if like something just could have happened, if I can bigfoot could kill it. Maybe the Jersey devil.

Maybe Mothman, snuck in, maybe warped in from another dimension, killed them both. Maybe Shadow Person. Maybe it was the Hatman, you know, that Shadow Person was the hat. Oh, where maybe he just, I don't know, maybe he also just hacks the shit out of people from time to time. Here are some more excerpts from Bridget's examination. Bridget says, I see anybody come in with a note. No sir, I did not. Easy enough for anybody to come in with a note to the house and you not know it, wasn't it? Well, I don't know if a note came to the back door that I wouldn't know. But they wouldn't necessarily go to the back door, would they? No, I'd never heard anything about a note, whether they got it or not, I don't know. Don't know anything about it.

And so you don't undertake to say it wasn't there. No sir, and this is again, just to me, this defense attorney said, what did I get you got to do? But it's like, you know, what Bridget is clearly saying is that it would be very, very, very, very unusual for someone to come over and bring a note for Mrs. Borden telling them that the frame is sick, you know, some messenger and the house made to know

absolutely nothing about it. But just like Bigfoot could have done it possible. Yeah, and again, this is that mystery note regarding, you know, Mrs. Borden, that a stick friend needs your help and the stick friend has never identified, never comes forward. This alone, again, makes me think that Lizzie is guilty

because the media attention for this trial would be insane on a national level, on the local level, even more so you know they compared it to the O.J. Simpson trial in terms of intrigue I mean just imagine the media attention right in that town on fall river and and and and then ten months since the trial Jesus Christ I can someone god damn it oh. Oh man, get outta here. Okay, that's fun. Get outta here.

For those of you guys, I hear me just be scared. Someone sent in a creepy doll to the sucked dungeon. And I'm guessing my mention of the shadow person made them decide to go outside. So either I didn't see the face either Joe or Lindsey stuck outside with the creep one of the creepiest dolls I've ever seen. This fan of the time suck. Oh my god. Joseph Lamar. He sent in the scariest looking demon doll like thing and that little baby doll was just knocking up against the window. So that's that's fun. That's fun. That's

this is why we're going to have video hopefully in a few weeks of recording. So when you guys hear me scream and squeal, you can see it if you want on YouTube. Okay, all right, man. Okay, that was fun. Okay, so let's get back to this thing though about this note, about the note. Let me just think about that. Like 10 months since the murders, the trial begins.

And in those 10 months, nobody ever comes forward to say, hey, it was me who is sick. I really did send that note. Like what? So that makes no sense. Unless you think that the mysterious note sender was the murderer, but who does that? Who's like, first, I shall send the family

a messenger inviting Abby over. And if she doesn't come at once to be killed here, I shall kill her and her husband at their homes with an axe. Then I will clean up the mess, then sneak back home, and just trust that my messenger will never speak a word of this at the trial. It will inevitably follow. It's the perfect crime.

Get out here. Reverend Dr. Seabury Bowen, the fourth S. choir of the boarden's physician, also testified at the trial. Some of his testimony was focused on where Lizzy was, the board and physician also testified to the trial. Some of his testimony was focused on where Lizzie was the time of Mr. Borden's murder. I met, she said,

I made no other examination at the time, except to feel Andrew's pulse. Ms. Lizzie had followed me partway through the dining room and as I went back to the kitchen, I asked her if she had seen anyone. She said, I have not. Then I asked her, where have you been? She replied, in the barn, looking for some iron.

Look what? Looking for iron. Trying to get that lead for the fishing trip. You're never gonna go on. The doctor also testified about giving more fiendy now to deal with the shock and about how that could have added to the confusion, answer she gave it her inquest. And maybe that's, maybe that's, you know,

I don't know, partly why the judge threw it out. Next door neighbor, Adelaide B. Churchill also testified to the trial. Testified about coming to the house directly after here Maybe that's, you know, I don't know, partly why the judge threw it out. Next door neighbor, Adelaide B. Churchill also testified at the trial, testified about coming to the house directly after here in Bridgett's say that Mr. Borden was dead. Says, I went over and stepped inside the screen door. She was sitting on the chair.

I put my hand on her arm and said, oh, Lizzie. Then I said, where is your father? She said in the sitting room. And I said, where were you when it happened? And she said, I went to the barn to get a piece of iron. I Said where is your mother? She said I don't know She had to get a note to see someone who is sick so she keep going by the note She's saying she's in the barn now where then Bridget said she's upstairs Get out of here

So I mean I and also she said father must have had an enemy for we have all been sick and we think the milk would have been poisoned Dr. Bone is not at home and I must have had an enemy for we have all been sick and we think the milk would have been poisoned. Dr. Boen is not at home and I must have a doctor. I said, Lizzie, shall I go out and try to get a doctor? She said, yes, and I went out. So again, interesting. Why would Lizzie suppose that Abby was dead too?

Maybe I skipped that part. No. Yeah, why would she suppose that Abby was dead too? If she had no reason to think so except that she wasn't there and claimed to have not seen the body. And again, the talk of poison she keeps doing is interesting to me, you know, where, you know, she went to get that the day before, she went to go buy that hydrogen cyanide,

that Prusa-Gasted, or just, you know, cyanide. And ingredient included in Zyclon B, the gas chamber poison used in the Holocaust, you know, was she, if she wasn't trying to poison her parents to kill them outright, make them look sick? So it looked like someone was trying to kill them? Interesting to note also when you Google, a prosic acid use is the first thing that comes up is parental murder.

Of course, that's not true. But it has no practical home use other than trying to poison someone or some animal. You know, I mean, I mean, I mean, cyanide is the stereotypical ingredient one would use when talking about trying to poison someone. Cyanide or arsenic. Industrally, around the time of Lizzy, cyanide was used in mining operations. That's why they were selling it locally, used to electroplate, gold and silver, used as a precursor to various chemical compounds needed to create certain polymers and pharmaceuticals.

Basically, unless you're wearing a lab coat or you work in a mine, no reason to buy this poison, unless you are trying to poison someone. Another neighbor, Alice Russell, you know, testified that Lizzie was talking about poison. You know, the night before the murders, you know, Alice claims Lizzie told her to her social visit that she was afraid her family's being poisoned. A lot of poison talk. It feels like she was trying to plant seeds, like, hey, if you know, my fucking family dies, just know that, you know, a lot of of enemies a lot of people want to poison them Diabolical she really did that way Allison said to Lizzie or said that Lizzie told me of a man that came to see her father

Said she heard him say that she didn't see him but heard her father say I don't care to let my property for such business You know we talked about that earlier Told me of seeing a man running around the house one night when she went home, said she had said, and you know, the barn has been broken into twice. And this is interesting. Based on, oh, we know about at least one of the break ins that the burger was very likely Lizzy herself. We don't know that 100% but it seems like it probably was her. So if true, interesting for her to attribute this to some other possible murderer hanging around. Alice said she told Lizzie, oh, well, you know, well, or excuse me, you know, well,

that that was somebody after pigeons. There is nothing in there for them to go after but pigeons. Well, she says they have broken into the house and brought daylight with Emma and Maggie and me there. And then she says, I have never heard of that before. And she says, Father for Bade are telling it. Right. Father for Bade are telling it. I just, ah, I have never heard of that before. She says, Father forbade our telling it. Right. Father forbade her telling it. I just, I don't believe this.

And I don't believe that she would like not say something because her father forbade it. I mean, she was a known shoplifter around town. I'm guessing her father also forbade her from stealing shit, but she still did that. Oh, but she's gonna keep this weird secret about a crime that she actually and all likely had probably committed.

Alice was asked further questions by the prosecution. They said, is there anything else you recall? Anything about burning in the house? She said, I feel as if I wanted to sleep with my eyes half opened. With one eye open half the time for fear, they will burn the house down over us. What?

Is there anything else that occurs to you in the conversation? Oh, she said, I'm afraid someone will do something. I don't know, but somebody will do something. I think that was the beginning. So she's just talking a lot. Lizzie is telling everybody she can, you know, who will listen to her about someone I guess might burn

their house down or someone might poison them. All this crazy constant talk worried about her father's life, you know, wreaks of someone premeditated and murdered. You know, especially she's so worried about someone killing her father, but she has no idea who that person would be. How convenient. Very convenient that the police have no one to question about these mysterious people wanting to kill her dad because she can't name them.

And she's probably, I would think not naming them because if she did name them, then they might have an alibi that would mess up her story. And then Alice, you know, of course, also testified that Lizzie ripped up a dress a few days after the murder, testified on that note, supposedly delivered, saying, Ms. Russell, to go back again to the day of the homicide, do you remember anything about a search for a note by anyone? Yes, sir. State what there is about that.

When we were in the dining room, Lizzie was lying down and I think Dr. Bone came in. I always thought it was Dr. Bone, and came in and said, Lizzie, do you know anything about a note your mother had? And she hesitated and said, well, no, she didn't. He said, I have looked in the waist basket. And I think I said, no, he said, have you looked in her pockets? And I think I said, well, then she must have put it in the fire. And Lizzie said, yes, she must have put it in the fire.

Again, looks bad. You know, the supposed note, the imaginary messenger, brought her stepmom that are, you know, her, no one could find it, even though they looked in the garbage. And then it was what, I guess it was burned, just like the dress. Um, yeah. So much, and then the numerous witnesses also, of course, testified for the defense.

Here is Andrew V. Jennings opening statement. This is the defense attorney who says, we shall show you that this young woman, as I have said, had apparently led an honorable, spotless life. She was a member of the church. She was interested in church matters. She was connected with various organizations for charitable work.

She was ever ready to help an any good thing in any good deed. And yet for some reason or other, the government in its investigation seemed to fasten this crime upon her. Now, Mr. Foreman and gentlemen, I want to say a word about the kinds of evidence. There are two kinds of evidence, direct evidence and circumstantial evidence. Direct evidence is the testimony of persons who have seen, heard or felt the thing or things about which they are testifying.

They are telling you something which they have observed or perceived by their senses. For instance, if this was a case of murder by stabbing, and a man should come before you and testify that he saw the prisoner strike the murdered person with a knife, that is direct evidence. That tends, that tends directly to connect the prisoner with the crime itself. Circumstantial evidence is entirely different than I want to say right here, Mr. Forman and gentlemen. I call your attention to it now. And I do not think the Commonwealth will question the statement when I make it that there is not

one particle of direct evidence in this case from beginning to end against Lizzie Andrew Borden. There is not a spot of blood. There is not a weapon that they have connected with her in any way, shape or fashion. They have not had her hand touch it or her eyes see it or her ear hear of it. There is not. I say a particle of direct testimony in the case connecting her with this crime, it's as holy and absolutely circumstantial. All right. Maybe maybe the circumstantial, but that's there's a lot of circumstantial evidence. Doesn't a lot of circumstantial evidence make

for a pretty convincing picture or a circumstantial evidence always just circumstantial, right? And sadly, if the initial officers on the scene had more thoroughly searched Lizzie, they probably in my mind would have found a lot of direct evidence. You know, like the murder weapon, like blood on her dresser person, further helping the defense, Dr. Benjamin handy, Dr. Handy, that's a strange physician. Who are you going to go see today? Dr. Handy, Dr. Handy. A physician who lived nearby testifies

that he saw someone suspicious outside the boarding house that morning. I went by the boarding house on the morning of the murders at nine o'clock and again, a little after 1030. Saw a medium-sized young man of a very pale complexion with his eyes fixed on the sidewalk. He was passing slowly towards the south. He was pale than common and acting strangely.

I turned in my carriage to look at him, never have I seen him before. He had liked suit of clothes, collar and necktie. Have searched for him since, been to the police station, to look at various persons. But have never seen the young man since. Now, I think it's important to note here that Fall River is not some little town of a few hundred people. Remember, it's a bustling, industrial, small city. You know, what was it about? 75,000. Experience in the population boom, the boardens lived on a very busy street. Not some quiet gated community. Seeing some pale, young dude does not seem like a huge deal. I mean, when he says, you know, pale than common and acting strange, it does make me think

this guy's, you know, probably Polish and that that is concerning, you know, because at the time, Fall River didn't think to have an anti-polish ordinance in place like they should have to keep human safe from those monsters. Oh, and if you're a new listener, my wife is Polish, Polish and German and I love it. It's easier. I've always thought Polish women are hot. So the anti-polish comments come from a good place.

Anyway, Hymen Lubinsky, another person who testifies for the defense, an ice cream peddler, who was passing by the boarding house, testifies that he saw a woman leaving the barn when Lizzie said she was coming back to the house at 1103. So maybe she really did head out to the barn. This does not make her seem more or less guilty to me, though. And I do feel like the testimony of an ice cream peddler should be taken less seriously than virtually any other person's profession, right? I'm sorry. What did you say your profession was?

I'm an ice cream peddler. Come again? I'm an ice cream peddler. That's why I thought you said no. Now get on. Get out of here. Beat it. Okay. Can I get you a cool chocolate mull before it's good on out? Well, of course you can. And a small neapolitan sundae for my assistant.

But then, scram. I know there's nothing wrong with ice cream, you guys. And that job title just cracked me up. I'm an ice cream peddler. Emma Borden, Lizzie sister, of course, not in town in the morning, the murders. Also another character witness for the defense. She defends Lizzie about the blue dress that she was wearing that day. Remember, she said that it was her idea to burn it, which makes no sense. And she just testifies that Lizzie had a cordial relationship with her parents, which doesn't seem to be verified by other people. But anyway, the trial goes on from June

5th to June 20th. Most prominent points made, you know, that the hatchet head from the broken hatchet not convincingly shown to be the murder weapon because he didn't have fucking for proper forensic evidence. The blue dress, which Lizzie was wearing on the day of the murders probably, the dress she burned a few days later, there's an argument made that it's not the same dress. There was a similar ax murder nearby, shortly before the trial. Now, I can't understand for the life of me

why this was allowed to be discussed in court. We know that the dude who did the other ax murder many months later wasn't even in America when the boardends were murdered. So how was that even possibly related? But I guess, I guess, you know, if that person wasn't fucking guilty, you know, I don't know. Lizzie had purchased some Prussic acid, aka Sinai that he before, supposedly for

cleaning a seal skin coat, the prosecution tried to claim that she was planning on poisoning her parents. However, this is ruled insubstantial by the judge right and tossed out. So right, no one, no one gets to even to even, the jury does not get to consider this evidence. Crazy to me. No one uses cyanide to clean coats. But the judge thought this evidence was irrelevant since the boardings were not poisoned, they were killed by a hatchet.

And no one has ever thought of killing someone one way and then changed courses and killed them in another manner. Like that doesn't happen. If I'm ever charged with murder, can someone please someone one way and then change courses and kill them in another manner. Like that doesn't happen. If I'm ever charged with murder, can someone please build a time machine, go back and get this judge and bring him back from my trial? How do you not allow, or how do you allow an ax murder

that for sure doesn't have shit to do with the board and his murders, but then not allow the poison situation unreal to me. Because everyone in the house has been sick for a week before the murder, the body's were tested for poison, but that was found. The victims' heads were removed.

This is a big part of the trial during the autopsy and then brought in as evidence in court, like shown, I showed the jurors, the jurors, the skulls, Lizzy fainted when she saw them. On June 20th, 1893, I have deliberating for just an hour and a half, the jury acquits Lizzy Borden,

and she's free to go home. Following the trial, the Borden I have to liberate him for just an hour and a half. The jury acquits Lizzie Borden, and she's free to go home. Following the trial, the Borden sisters moved to a large house in that upscale hill neighborhood. They moved to the hill. Just like Lizzie to always wanted. They called her new home, Maplecroft. They had live in maids. You know, they had numerous servants. A housekeeper, a coachman, living it up.

Like she always dreamed. Lizzie changed her name to Lizbeth. And Lizbeth lived lavishly. All of Andrew and Abby's the states went to the board and sisters, although they did give some stuff to Abby's family and a little settlement later, while Lizzie was now living in the midst

of Fall River high society, she's not welcome by her neighbor, she's ostracized, she's not invited to parties, not welcome in their homes, not helping her was the infamous and popular nursery rhyme already in circulation. You know, that Lizzie Boden took an axe, gave a mother, Foti wax, when she saw what she had done. She gave a father, Foti won. Now that rhyme or a slight earlier variation of it,

actually first appeared, at least the first as far as Lizzie Boden historians know of, in the news, Harold of Hillsboro, Ohio, February 15th, 1894. So yes, a good as Lizzie Borden historians know of in the news, Harold of Hillsboro, Ohio, February 15th, 1894. So yes, a good chance. Lizzie heard it in her lifetime, probably a lot. I picture little kids singing it outside her home and then just scamper it off when she shows up in the window. And the rhyme, of course, exaggerates the crimes.

Her parents received 29 or 30 total blows, not 81. She was again the recipient of some unwanted local attention in 1897 when she was accused of shoplifting, Providence, Rhode Island, dad not around to protect all sticky fingers anymore. She eventually gave up on trying to be accepted by the upper crust of Fall River and began to associate with artist types and bohemians, actors and such, throwing lavish parties. In 1905, following an argument over one of these parties that Lizzie had thrown for actors Nancy O'Neill, 54-year-old sister Emma moves

out and they'll never speak again. She'll never see Lizzie again. Following the removal of her gallbladder in 1926, Lizzie was, uh, become very ill and then she would die of pneumonia on June 1st, 1927, fall river. Her sister died nine days later. Both of them buried side by side in the family plot in the Oak Grove cemetery. Neither one of them ever had a serious known romantic relationship in their lives and that will take us out of today's time-soc timeline.

Good job, soldier. You made it back. Barely. All right now let's talk a little about the intense media coverage that's around of this trial. Interesting to note that most of the media coverage seem to kind of favor her innocence. I kind of chalked that up to sign of the Victorian era times. Under the headline, shocking crime, a venerable citizen and his aged wife hacked to pieces in their home. The fall river herald reported the news of the board murders spread like wildfire and hundreds poured into second street, where for years Andrew J. Borden and his wife had lived in happiness.

The herald reporter who visited the crime scene described the face of the dead man as sickening over the left temple a wound six by four inches wide. He been made as if it had been pounded with the dull edge of an axe. The left eye had been dug out and it cut extended the length of the nose. The face was hacked to pieces and the blood had covered the man's shirt. Despite the gore, the room was in order

and there were no signs of a scuffle of any kind. Initial speculation as the identity of the murderer, the fall river Harold reported centered on a Portuguese laborer who had visited the board of the murderer, the fall river Harold reported centered on a Portuguese laborer who had visited the board and home earlier in the morning and asked for wages do him. Only to be told by Andrew Borden that he had no money and to call later.

Okay, the story added that medical evidence suggested Abby Borden was killed by a tall man who struck the woman from behind. But later, people who examined the crime, who had some forensic knowledge, don't agree with that. A story in the Boston Daily Globe did report rumors that Lizzie and her stepmother never got along together peacefully and that for a considerable time back, they have not spoken.

The Boston Herald meanwhile viewed Lizzie as above suspicion, saying, from the consensus of opinion, it can be said in Lizzie Borden's life, there is not one unmaidingly nor a single deliberately unkind act. Uh, what about the shoplifting? Uh, I would feel like that would qualify as unmaidingly. The New York Times editorialized it would be a certain relief to every right-minded man a woman who has followed the case to learn that the jury at New Bedford has not only acquitted Ms. Lizzy Borden of the atrocious crime with which she was charged but has done so with a prop

ness that was very significant. I don't know, so did she do it? And if she did, why did she do it? And if she didn't do it, who did it? You know, let's look a little more at that. Let's look a little more at that before we end this today's episode. But before we do that, let's check in with today's idiots of the internet. IDIOT, I'm the internet.

Under a video titled Simply Lizzy Borden, documentary uploaded by Doc Spot, faux intellectual, Artemis Fowl, types, the truth doesn't create legends and urban myths. Amazes me, no one ever mentions there was a known serial killer living in the same town. No one mentions he was a nephew of the milkman. He delivered the milk. He killed several people with his hatchet and always used excessive force and took the same things from each scene. A few dollars, change, a pocket watch, leaving behind other things of value, even large amounts

of money. He was in a legal immigrant and deported. He was known to the police prior to the board and murders and attacked again while Lizzie was in prison. The DA and the uncle worked out on agreement and sent the nephew back to his motherland. The only messed up thing about this case is that Lizzie was arrested in the first place. She wouldn't cow-tow to the show to the showvinistic DA and I for one salute her. I hope she's still giving them hell wherever she is. She wasn't that odd. She was a tomboy lesbian feminist. In a time, women were expected to be in the company of a man to cross the street. She didn't give a rat's ass who you were or what you thought. She wasn't going to play second fiddle to anyone. If you want to know

the real facts of this case and not the commercial hype, read the newspapers from the surrounding cities, counties, and bordering states. Most public libraries still have a microfiche of newspapers. Also read the personal diaries of the DA, the judge, the lead detective, the jurors, and anyone you can find from that time. Ha! Oh, Artemis, you smug blowhard fuck. You phony piece of line shit. Read the papers of the day, read the diaries of the judge and leave it. Why don't you fucking read

that stuff? If you did, you would know that everything you said was nonsense. Learn how the nephew of the milkman was a known serial killer. If you would have actually looked into this case, you claimed to be such an expert on you would know there was no Hatchet Wilde and serial killer in fall river. You're talking about Portuguese migrant worker Jose Dimeo and he was sent out of the country in 1913 After serving nearly 20 years in prison for the murder he committed after the boardings were killed You know the boardings being killed while he was not in the country, you dumb shit. I hate these brazen liars who just blatantly make up shit on the web and present it as hard earned, well-researched facts

To make strangers think that they're geniuses. Now he killed one person with an axe after the board murders and Nice feminist virtue virtue signaling you pathetic pandora. There is no evidence at all that Lizzie was some, you know, like a feminist, you know, leader or that she was even a lesbian. There's no evidence that she was some feminist hero. You know, she was so brave, she was so independent. Why didn't she tell that he'd fuck off? Strike out on her own. That would be the actions of some, you know, pioneer of feminism. Have you read anything at all about Lizzie? She wasn't going to play second fiddle to anyone. She played second fiddle to daddy. Until the day he died, she was a 32 year old child. And I'll likely a cold blooded murder.

Way to shape a false narrative to suit whatever story you feel like telling, you know, make it look cool in front of your friends, I guess. Are you a journalist? Do you write for the Huffington Post? Are you the judge from the actual trial? Transport it to the present? Huh? User three Martini Playdate, a great user name, by the way, then asked Artemis Fowler the question that sends him into another nonsensical tie, right?

Or I guess her, we don't know the gender of Artemis Fowler. Posting, that's some interesting stuff, but why would the DA benefit from letting the milkman's nephew go to which Artemis found her flies? He'd benefit a lot, especially if it were made public. He had information before that she couldn't have killed her parents. How does he know this? Imagine if you'd reflect on your DA knowing he arrested and tried someone for a crime,

he knew they didn't commit simply because he didn't like their attitude. Well actually it happens every day, every day, guys, every single day difference being people then were more hip about their constitutional rights and we're not as complicit and easily manipulated as people are today. Oh, we're just about to sheple you guys. For example, our justice system was designed to let the guilty go rather than risk in prison in the innocent, but today, damn near all juries vote guilty. Where there is evidence or not. The reason prohibition was recalled was because jurors refused to vote guilty on such nonsense. They'd say, how do we know that's really alcohol? If we don't try it. And then they drink all the alcohol

and then say there was no evidence, Ha ha, brilliant sons of bitches. When the government realized they had lost support of the people, the amendment was amended. Just like in the Scott Peterson case, four pregnant women go missing, all four women found in the same spot, one abducted and killed by Scott while Scott awaits trial. The house next door is burglarized. The day Lacey goes missing neighbors call the police yet police report is changed to say the robbery took place a day after when reporters were outside the house highly improbable. The arrest, uh, uh, the arresting officer is on record saying he's going to nail him because he doesn't like his attitude, whether he had anything to do with it or not happens every day in America. In America is the Court of Public Opinion and that's the exact opposite of what your

judiciary system was designed for. I guess Court of Public Opinion would be okay if public had a lick of sense. You don't have a lick of sense. You fucking lunatic. Ah, dear God, if Artemis foul, it's ever standing between me and an open elevator shaft. I pray I have the strength not to throw him down it. Give me the strength, Nimrod. If I'm locked in a room with this person for any like the time, I feel like there's

a good chance only one of us comes out. Who is this douche? The head writer for David Iker, Alex Jones. Artemis seems to share their gift of citing a lot of facts. They just pulled out of their ass and just presenting arguments based on documents that do not exist. I will concede that most juries do in fact reach guilty verdicts. There's a lot of evidence on that. A lot of stats out there, but that makes sense. It would be fucking weird if most juries came to an innocent conclusion. Now

I mean, the police were like the absolute worst at their jobs that you can possibly like be at a job because you don't get put on trial. In most cases, in less years, you know, I don't know, a lot of evidence, strongly suspecting that you did it. Super weird, for most trials, not to any guilty verdicts. And pro-abision, you're totally wrong about that. Pro-abision was not repealed

because Jury's kept coming up with not guilty verdicts. It was repealed because it didn't work. It was supposed to reduce crime, but it led directly to so much more crime. It led directly to the rise of organized crime. And what are you talking about with your, the juries would just drink all the alcohol that's said that it was now. That's nonsense, right? Like that was just happening.

Can we sample some of the alcohol it was supposed to drink by the defendant? Mmm, this is delicious. Can we drink all of it? Well, we're not drunk, you know, you guys. We're not even drunk, so innocent. No, and it's got Peterson stuff. What are you talking about? The arresting officer in the Scott Peterson trial

did not go on record and say he was going to arrest Scott because he didn't like his attitude. Lesson up, everybody, as the arresting officer, I would like now to go on because he didn't like his attitude. Lesson up everybody, as the arresting officer, I would like now to go on record and say, fuck that guy. I don't care if he did kill his wife. I just don't like his attitude. So let it be known that I will put him in prison by any means necessary.

Now if you excuse me, I have to go frame more people. And four pregnant women did not go missing, just like Lacey Peterson, all to be found in the same spot. Another pregnant woman named Evelyn Hernandez did go missing on May 1st, 2002, almost six months after Lacey Peterson's disappearance and a portion of her torso washed up on the embarked Darro three months later. The father of her unborn baby was suspected but never arrested.

Her head, arms and feet is never found. Lacey Peterson's body found about two miles north of Berkeley, Marina, over 10 miles from Evelyn's body. So you know, not exactly found in the same spot, Artemis, you dipshit. Despite being wrong, about 90% of the time he makes an assertion, what's scary to me about people like Artemis, commenters on the web, is that most people seem to believe him. If you read the replies underneath them,

like Shelley Whalen, who replies, what? I did not know this. Thanks for sharing. I think she was innocent. Look, that's great. That's great. Now, we just got another person out there, believing in a bunch of bullshit.

Shelley, you didn't know that because it's not true. Why do people believe this asshole? Probably because he cites just enough factual sounding fake evidence to seem legit, just like Alex Jones, like David Ike, just like other manipulative morons with huge followings. The truth is out there, if you wanna look for it. I post my show notes on the website in the app so you can actually find my sources. These assholes do not,

cause their sources are not sets. You can choose, you know, not to believe everything you read on the web, or you can just step right in and just join the continually growing dumb shit parade that is the idiots of the internet. All right, so who did it? Well, I think it's clear that I think Lindsey did it. Lindsey? That was a weird fordance. Lindsey fuck Lindsey did it. Lindsey comments went back in time

and she killed them with an axe to practice for me. No, Lizzy. Lizzy did it. Lindsay comments went back in time. And she killed them with an X to practice for me. No, Lizzie, Lizzie did it. I think I believe, I think a combination of an all male jury, composed of men who viewed, you know, slight, chased church going Lizzie through the Victorian era, show andistic lens. Just couldn't didn't see her. They just couldn't see her as capable of committing such a heinous

and you know, crime. And I think the combination of that and important evidence being omitted from the trial is what freed her. But why? What was her motive? I think probably greed and freedom from the financial control of her father. I mean, she wanted more than he was willing to give her, as shown via her shoplifting. She just wanted more, as shown by moving to the most expensive part of town as soon as

as possible after the trial ends.... is crazy sounds i think she may she may also have asked him for acts and her pigeons she she would later donate almost everything she had to a local fall river animal shelter uh... she was known to really love animals she seemed more fun than the people and that and that he didn't just you know get rid of her pigeons he hatcheted them uh... and why kill Abby well because because if she kills only her father, then her father's inheritance goes to step mommy. And she's even worse off than before.

Now the purse strings are being pulled by someone she openly does not get along with. Also, there's a chance that her father was about to write her out of the will. A chance he was sick of putting up with her shoplifting home thefts, other nonsense. She's a problem child and he may have been about done with a Rebecca Pittman, a devoted Lizzie Borden researcher, an author of the history and haunting of Lizzie

Borden thinks that Lizzie initially tried to poison her parents because he was just, you know, because he was just hours away from signing away her inheritance to Abby. And if you're wondering about the poison because later they did, you know, find that they weren't poisoned when they examined the bodies, they didn't have the tools necessary to examine for all types of poison. So they could have been poisoned and gotten sick and it just didn't show up in the post-mortem examination. But anyway, she claims this author claims to have verified the identity of two mysterious

men who witnessed this spot at the board and home, the day the murders. You know, there was always people coming and going from the board and home as Andrew often conducted business out of his house and she she claimed to verified that there are two distant family members uh... came by using uh... ancestor dot com and some witness testimony and she says it supports her theory that andrew board was about to transfer one of his farms to abbey as a part of a new business deal involving her branch the family

and that if you live long enough to sign the papers this deal would have significantly less than lizzies and her notes so you know not writing a completely out of the will but writing her mostly out of the family, and that if you had lived long enough to sign the papers, this deal would have significantly lessened Lizzie's inheritance. So, you know, not writing her completely out of the will, but writing her mostly out of the will, which could have prompted a murderous rage. This is a theory. Another theory that Lizzie was a lesbian, killed her parents, because they knew of some lesbian affair, and forbid her from continuing with it. This is pure speculation, substantiated by nothing. She may have been a lesbian. There are no records of her seriously being courted by any man. She was captivated by actress Nance O'Neill, but a lot of people were.

That's the actress she threw a party for her, that cost Emma to leave. Nance also remains single until she was in her 40s with single to time. So, you know, people just, oh, two single ladies, you know, Victorian era ladies. They must be lesbians. No, not necessarily. And, you know, if so, she might not have been having, you know, a romance to anybody. Pure speculation. Also another theory that Lizzie snapped in killer father, because he'd been molesting her for years and Abby did nothing to stop it.

Literally zero evidence to support that one. That theory seems to be based on the following. It seems to be based on Lizzie giving her father a ring as a teenager, and it was the only article of jewelry he wore. He was buried with it. That's like the main evidence for this. Are you, what? Are you kidding me? He wore a ring. His daughter gave him. So he must have been molesting her ridiculous. Get out of here. Lizzie's bedroom, a joint her parents bedroom, her bed was angled as to obstruct the doorway between them Like she was trying to prevent them from getting in Um, or she just fucking that was the best place to put the bed. Lizzie kept her bedroom door locked at all times

Yeah, but so did mr. and Mrs. Borden Uh, so I'm gonna call bullshit on that It's possible in the way that we don't know what was going on behind the closed doors there Just like we don't know what was going on behind the closed doors of any family we don't know what was goes on behind closed doors of any family, but no evidence. There is a another common theory that it was a murder suicide. Now something to Andrew killed his own wife with a hatchet for unknown reasons and then unable to live with the guilt, you know, he then laid down while he's in shock on the couch and then hatcheted himself to death. Miraculously surviving the first self-inflicted hatchet one to his own face is crazy to

sound not unprecedented. A 37 year old man named Harold Baines killed himself with the hatchet in Erie, Pennsylvania in 1888 after being suspected for stealing half a dozen rabbits from a neighbor the previous day. The corner determined that Harold survived the first 17 blows to his own head before killing himself. He severed off both his ears. Now it's all teeth out obliterated both eyeballs and then the next blow killed him Now I think that's true because I did read about it in a book written by Artemis Fowl Or at least allegedly written by him as he claims on YouTube. So you know, it's got to be true It's got to be true now get out of here. It's fucking crazy talk. Let's move along now to top five takeaways.

Time suck. Top five takeaways. Number one, 70 year old Andrew and 64 year old Abby Borden murdered with a hatchet on the morning of August 4th 1892 in their fall river Massachusetts home. Abby was struck 18 times in and around the back of her head. Andrew was struck 10 or possibly even 11 times in the face. Number two, Andrews 32 year old daughter Lizzie was charged with the murders of her father and stepmother. She and the living maid Bridget were the only people known to be home at the time of the murders.

Lizzie had tried to buy a sign hide the day before burned the dress. She was most likely wearing when the murders were reported. Gave a ton of conflicting testimony about where she was and what she was doing the morning of the murders, but she was acquitted. Number three, despite what lunatic, Artemis Fowler's search, there was no acts or hatchet wielding serial killer on the loose and fall river in 1892. For sure. There was another acts murder committed months later by someone who had never been to America

when Andrew and Abby were killed. Number four, maybe Lizzie didn't do it. Truly, she was tried and found innocent and all the evidence that she didn't do it as her defense attorney pointed out a trial is circumstantial. However, there just is a lot of circumstantial evidence. But she wasn't found covered in blood, known when it's the killings that we know of. So maybe innocent, but I don't know. Come on. And number five, new info, did Lizzy Borden strip naked to commit the murders? Then put

a dress on, could that explain why there was these two brutal murders, murders committed, but she wasn't found covered in blood. Now, this theory admittedly comes from Hollywood. The 1975 movie, The Legend of Lizzy Borden, starring Super Sexy Bee, which actress Elizabeth Montgomery, 41 of the time of filming showed Elizabeth getting naked to commit the murders. Well, it showed her getting naked as much as they made for TV in 1975, ABC,

American movie, Cut. Now, why? Well, probably, honestly, because it was a great excuse to show as much of Elizabeth Montgomery's sexy skin as possible. Love set a 76, symbols, by the way, the hair, the natural look, fantastic. But could this have happened?

I mean, sure, why not? It would be much easier to wash blood off of your body than to get it off your clothes. Maybe what Lizzie, when she explained, because she explained this one point that there was a gravy stain on the dress she was wearing when the police arrived. Maybe that was actually a little bit of blood.

That's why she burned it later. Maybe a little bit of blood she didn't, didn't, I wasn't able to wash off. I also hear that the new Chloe, Sivini and Kristen Stewart, Lisi movie has both of them getting naked for the same reason. And in this movie, Lisi and Bridget are lesbian lovers going back to that theory

and they team up to kill Andrew and Abby. Very unlikely. I think Lisi would have come up with a better, more consistent story if she had been working with an accomplice. But you know, it also does make me want to see that movie more. Hailer's the Fina. The Christina Richie movie also has Christina Richie getting naked for the killings. So maybe just Holly would invention, but you know, maybe another theory as, or I could definitely another theory, but maybe something that actually did happen. Time suck.

Tough, right takeaway. So Lizzy Borden has been sucked. I mean, interesting suck. I just feel like I just could keep doing it. There's just so many different, like, well, maybe this happened. Well, maybe this happened. It's just kind of fun to examine the case, look at it all from testimony. I had moments in the suck today where I was like, wait a minute, I'd already say this

because I just kept looking at so many things for this one. I see why it dominated headlines. You know, they never did charge or strongly suspect anyone else in the deaths after Lizzie's acquittal, by the way. And one last thing, if she would have been found guilty, Lizzie Borden would have been hanged. And something to jury acquitted her because the dudes just weren't comfortable hanging with me.

Actually, a woman had been hanged recently just before the trial in Massachusetts and was a big scandal And something to jury acquitted her because the dudes just weren't comfortable hanging woman. Actually a woman had been hanged recently just before the trial in Massachusetts and was a big scandal and a lot of people really didn't like it. Did not set well with the public and so there was strong incentive for them to not do that again. And at the time, just culturally, women were charged with so few crimes of significance that there wasn't even a place to hold a woman prisoner in the fall river jail.

Again, this is a decent sized city. She had to be jailed before her trial on nearby town. And also check this out. I just can't see if I can't stop talking about this. The primary judge on the board in case was Justin Dewey. Justin Dewey had been appointed as a judicial seat by the former governor of Massachusetts, a man named George Robinson. And what was George doing at the time of Lizzie's trial, acting as her lead defense attorney? So that is a little bit of a conflict of interest. So, you

know, the lead defense attorney is the guy who gave the head judge in the trial his job. So many interesting facets in this case. I can keep going on and on and on, but this suck is I know more than long enough already. So thanks again to the time suck team, high priestess of the suck harmony velocamp, Jesse Gardy, and of grammar, dobner. God, it was nice to have him to get the episode to him in time this week.

He fixed a lot of mistakes. Love it. Reverend Dr. Joe Paisley making it sound so good. Time suck high priest Alex Dugan. The guys at BiddleLixer, this fantastic app and website developers, Danger Brain making everything we have all the new merch in the store looks so fucking great. Keeps getting better space lizards and merch wizards, access to peril. Write a little hail Nimrod notes on people's stuff when they send it out.

How cool is that? So good with customer service. You have a problem with any merch. You just send it back. They'll take care of you. refund it if something happened. Queen of the suck Lindsey Cummins. Oh, the real brains behind this operation. And and big thanks to both jangles research superstar Sophie fact sorceress Evans. Also quick shout out to longtime suckers and spaces which Greg, Dan and Donna. Three spaces. There's an Huntington Beach. Glad I got to see it the shows.

And glad I got to grab some pizza, Dan and Donna's pizza place in Anaheim called Out of the Park Pizza. Man, great food, arcade games, ping pong tables, all sorts of fun stuff. Next week, the darkness intensifies. It's the dark October. We get into the tail of chess board killer, the ghost of Chica Tilo, maybe Philly and Threatened,

as we head to Russia to examine the life and crimes of another demented piece of shit, 44 year old Alexander Yurovich Poshushkin, the Bitsa Park maniac. He is believed to have killed at least 48 people, possibly as many as 60 between 1992 and 2006 in Southwest Moscow's Bitsa Park, where a number of victims bodies were found. 2007 sends the life in prison. A childhood head injury may have changed him from a normal, fun, loving kid into a demented psychopath who wanted to kill 62 people to fill up the squares on a chess

port. So super duper fucked up. And we're going to suck him so hard next week. And now it is time for today's time, sucker updates. Rupdate, get your time, sucker updates. Coming in hot with an angry first update. It's okay. This is from Katie. I will leave her last name out because I don't want anyone, you know, mad at her to send her anything that they disagree. I don't need to perpetuate any of that kind of stuff. And I like you when you guys disagree.

I just so for the record, I'm not upset with Katie at all. Katie wrote, master sucker, damn. I am only halfway through your Andrew Jackson time suck and holy shit. This has made me more enraged than any other thing I've listened to in years. I know I'm only halfway through and I'm hoping you redeem yourself,

but I just cannot get past your justification of his slavery. You literally justify slavery for about five minutes and then say, I'm not trying to justify slavery. Well, I was trying to contextualize it. I'm sorry, but the fuck the idea that cultural norms make slavery okay or in any way acceptable? Nah, that's not an out of saying. There are many examples of people living in the U.S. in this time who didn't feel the need to buy an own land or no, excuse me, to buy and own other humans.

Okay, well, first off, Katie, I was not just to find slavery. I was establishing that it was historically normal for certain groups of people living in certain parts of the world throughout history to have had slaves, which is, that's a historical fact. You don't have to like it, but it's true. To pretend it's not is frankly a little silly and to pretend everyone involved in it was evil I think is also silly just this weird thing to you know like They like the refer to that like writing is like bad writing. We made people like black or white

They're just all bad or they're all good. It's like no they do bad things and they have other good illness their character and You know whether you like it or not just it's just the way things were I'm not gonna sugarcoat Uncontable truth. I think not gonna sugarcoat uncomfortable truths. I think we should be able to face the truth. Katie continues, especially screw this motherfucker, piece of shit who's responsible for not only owning plenty of slaves and treating them like garbage,

but also constructing the genocide of an entire race that lived on his land well before him and his redneck family. Okay, Andrew Jackson did not construct a genocide. Congress voted in favor of the trail of tears. It was more than one dude. Also, Andrew Jackson raised not one but two American Indians in his own home. You remember when Hitler raised two Jewish kids as if they were his own?

No, exactly. This tells me his feelings towards American Indians were not those of genocide and they were complicated. And yes, they were there before him. And based on your non-American Indian last name, they were here long before you as well. You would not be here had not the war has been won. War is ugly. War is hell.

Think about here, Shema, the bomb we dropped so recently on the poor people of Japan fucked up. Man, horrible things happen. And the trail of tears was a horrible, horrible thing. And then Katie continues, finally, I'm sorry, I respect you, but your example of, but an African man on slaves first is not only insulting, but also irrelevant. This in no way makes it okay for what white men did to Africans for the next 200 plus years.

Again, you misunderstood me, Katie. The example I used, not insulting, it's just proof the slavery is not a white man's disease. No matter how badly some people want to force that narrative, it's a meat sack disease. That's just the truth and it'll always be the truth. We meat sacks of all colors have enslaved others at various points in history. And again, of all colors, if we're going to demonize one group of people like white men, we need to demonize everybody. None of it was okay.

And I wasn't saying it made it okay. I was just trying to show that, yeah, yeah, he was a slave owner That's bad also other people with slave owners including people who were not white I think that it is important to state because he gets left out of the narrative a lot of times Katie finishes I'm gonna give you the benefit of doubt and try to listen to the rest of the suck I'm guessing he didn't like it But you take so far comes off as classic whitewashing of American history It took you 45 minutes to even mention

the fact that there were slaves as part of the population of this country so far you, you've spent about three minutes on the topic towards that two of which we're trying to make it seem like it's fine. No, just a white girl's opinion on what is so far coming off as a white man, holy noppy, human piece of garbage is some sort of hero. I hope by the end of wrong, if so, I'll right back and apologize, which didn't happen, so I know you're still mad. Still a fan and a list of them today. One, well thank you for getting a list in.

I hope you are still listening. If not, I hope you come back soon. I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one though, but my take on the subject. I stand by not removing the context and era of someone's life when judges them, and I go for people of all colors. You know, you can say that what they do is wrong. And that, let's not, they're being a confusion about that.

It was wrong, what he did. The trailer tears, wrong, slavery, wrong. I'm just trying to point out the contextual history for it. Because what we do a lot now, this, we're a logical thing of trying to judge historical figures and judge historical errors by the morals and by the normal culture of a time that those people never lived in. And sorry, you cannot like it, but that is fucking ridiculous.

It makes no sense. What I'm trying to do is not whitewash anything. I'm trying to remain logical in a world that seems to make primarily illogical emotional decisions sometimes to me. You're good at Katie You got a good heart. I hope we still have you here in the sucker. I see you logic. I do. I love its intent keep challenging me Like everyone else. I need to do Okay, now an anniversary shout out from a wonderful sucker named Caitlin Nolan Caitlin writes to your dad. I'm writing to you out desperation. My husband and I have been together since we were teenagers

and just celebrated our 13th anniversary. Lately we've been going through some really rough times. He works so hard. He is the most amazing man I've ever met. He's a space lizard through and through and I wanted to know if you can give him a shout out. Your podcast has been something that's gotten into some rough shit and I wanted to know he is seen.

He's loved and he's a motherfucking badass. Ah, anyways, if you decide to find in your heart, please just let Nick Nolan from Grand Rapids, Michigan know that his wife loves him with all her heart or some sappy shit like that. It would mean the world to me. Well, Nick Nolan, you're lucky meat sack. Your loved man, Kaylin seems fan fucking testing. You're with the biggest, longest hug you've ever given anyone in your whole life.

Next time you see her and a big, all elusive thing like kiss. And then you know, see things, see where things go from there. Maybe to get more exciting. Thank you, K. I want to hope you two are doing well. That was very sweet. Another shout out now coming from time sucker, Wendy King says, hey there, master sucker, Nioh. So my space new hold is a huge fan.

He got me into the suck after I got him into your stand up. He's super bummed that he can't come to the Spokane show in his summer since the venue is 21 plus. I was hoping you would make his day, give a shout out to him. He just passes driving test. So he's now an official licensed driver. Watch out Spokane drivers.

There's a new lizard driver in town. Thank you for being you and Leesine are a little cult with compassion, intelligence and hilarity. Oh, leading, sorry. And don't forget, church on Sunday, 10 o'clock. Your faithful space is your Wendy. Well, thank you, Wendy. Thanks for referencing the fun little standup bit in there.

Hold and hug your mom. You get in a hug there. I just don't do the other stuff. I advise Nick to do. That'd be way too much. That's too much for moms. Speak on the speaking gather. Really though, give your mama a sweet hug.

Sorry about the age requirement, fuck and lick her loss and drive safe. Don't be a dipshit. Like I was recently where you see belt and don't be a huge dipshit like I used to be and get a DIY unless you want to risk killing somebody. Not good. And now last message from Merritt Langley

asking about wackadoodles says, Dan, I've been listening to your comments in 2010 when I first heard revenges near. You're definitely a biased favorite, but I have a question. When did you start using the phrase Wackadoodle? Was it taken from a family member or heard on the road? Did you make it up? I've never heard the phrase before and it's so succinct and perfect that I've started using it myself. Yeah man, use it, everybody use it. Thank you for the wonderful entertainment. Keep on sucking. I think I think I made it up. I mean, if I did hear it from someone else, I mean I could have, I just don't remember that. I think I made it up. And to me,

what I wanted to do is come up with like a nicer word to use than the more aggressive fuck face or asshole, ass clown dumb shit ass wipe cock face. I wanted to go something, little softer, you know, some for the kids. No, but something a little softer where it's like, ah, okay, you're not a horrible person, you're just, ah, you're thinking some real silly things right now. And I wish you would not think those. Wackadoodle, you got some crazy beliefs

that I wish you would re-examine. You're a Wackadoodle. The silliness of the word takes the edge off from me. And that's it. And thank you for writing in, you beautiful bastards. Thanks, time suckers. I need a net. We all did.

Thanks for listening, meat sacks. Have a great week. Do not kill anyone with an axe or a, or an door, a hatchet. Much harder to get away with now than it was in 1892. And try not to get killed with an axe and or a hatchet, much harder to get away with now than it was in 1892 and try not to get killed with an axe and or hatchet. Probably just a shitty to die that way as I imagine it was in 1892 and for the love of sweet Nimrod, sweet baby Nimrod, keep on sucking. Toss. Toss. Toss.

Toss. Toss. Toss. Abby had actually put her vagina in a safety deposit box at the bank a few years earlier because she just didn't think she was going to need it.