Timesuck with Dan Cummins - 203 - BSU: The FBI's Serial Killer Catchers

Episode Date: August 3, 2020

Investigating the investigators today! Talking about the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit. Looking into how a small group of special agents introduced the term "serial killer" into our lexicon, and then studied infamous serial killers like Ed Kemper, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer and others to try and understand the minds of some of the sickest, most dangerous members of society, in an attempt to keep the body counts of future serial killers as low as possible by predicting where and how and who they'd try and kill next. Also looking into how the FBI itself involved over the year into a massive federal law enforcement agency that created not only the BSU but multiple other crime-fighting units. There's a lot of info and hopefully, a lot of laughs coming your way, today, on Timesuck. Donating $6600 to the YWCA's Idaho County Fund! My childhood friend and former classmate Kristy Dewitt-Beckstead has been a YWCA advocate for the past nine years. She helps victims of domestic violence, who are almost always women who have been isolated in the extremely rural area I grew up, where they feel trapped by abusive partners. To donate yourself to this important cause, go to ywcaidaho.org and earmark your donation to “General Fund Idaho County” by typing that in the comments section of the online donation form. Watch the Suck on YouTube: https://youtu.be/LxesUrt_8x8 Merch - https://badmagicmerch.com/ 2020 online gathering tix go on sale August 10th at Noon PST! Try out Discord! https://discord.gg/tqzH89v Want to join the Cult of the Curious private Facebook Group? Go directly to Facebook and search for "Cult of the Curious" in order to locate whatever current page hasn't been put in FB Jail :) For all merch related questions: https://badmagicmerch.com/pages/contact Please rate and subscribe on iTunes and elsewhere and follow the suck on social media!! @timesuckpodcast on IG and http://www.facebook.com/timesuckpodcast Wanna become a Space Lizard? We're over 9000 strong! Click here: https://www.patreon.com/timesuckpodcast Sign up through Patreon and for $5 a month you get to listen to the Secret Suck, which will drop Thursdays at Noon, PST. You'll also get 20% off of all regular Timesuck merch PLUS access to exclusive Space Lizard merch. You get to vote on two Monday topics each month via the app. And you get the download link for my new comedy album, Feel the Heat. Check the Patreon posts to find out how to download the new album and take advantage of other benefits

The FBI Behavioral Science Unit, BSU for short. Long time fast nation of Hollywood, dramatized movies and shows like science and lambs, criminal minds, technically the behavioral analysis unit or BAU, what the BSU evolved into for that show. Most recently, the BSU was reintroduced into the public consciousness in the popular Netflix show Mindhunter.

The behavioral science unit and the FBI is a whole capture the attention of audiences for decades and for good reason. Working for the BSU is literally one of the most high stakes jobs there is, analyzing and catching serial killers. Do the job right, you save countless lives. Do the job wrong, victims keep disappearing and dying, no pressure. As a job, a bunch of us have probably dreamt about doing it one time or another. I absolutely wanted to work with Jody Foster's Clarice Starling after watching Science of the Lamps,

one of my favorite movies of all time, actually. But most of us probably glad we aren't the ones who have to spend day after day immersing ourselves into the minds of some of the sickest people alive, even though that is kind of what I do here most weeks. Today we talk about some of the agents who are the first to crawl into the minds of the serial killers,

so many of us are now fascinated by. But the BSU wasn't always the prestigious place it is today. In fact, many of the FBI were skeptical of the BSU's techniques when the unit began operations in the early 70s. What is the BSU? How was it developed? Who were the serial killers, including the notable, some notable times, like alumni that investigators profiled? Can you ever take what a serial killer says about himself seriously? Does profiling actually help catch these psychos? Some criminologists and sociologists think that criminal profiling is a little more than just a shot in the dark, a way of letting us think we can anticipate and control evil when evil doesn't play by society's rules. These are the kind of questions we're exploring today, along with what happens when you get trapped in a small room with gigantic ed Kemper.

Nothing good, mother. All this and more today on another true crime edition of Time Suck. This is Michael McDonald and you're listening to Time Suck. You're listening to Time Suck. Happy Monday, mate Saks, hail Nimrod. I love you, Luciferina, praise book, jangles, and put on a little triple M if you need to turn your mood from selling to sunshine. Welcome to the colds and curious. Dan Kelman is a suck master, the master sucker, y'all him, curls, cafe, a bus boy, and you're listening to time suck. Recording here in the suck dungeon in CDA with a script keeper and with the Reverend Doctor

back in the studio. Joe Paisley back in the building. Let me give him a little bit of a plus. He deserves it. We're happy to have him here. He's looking healthy. He's looking ready for the August 12th premiere of a he and I new comedy podcast is We Dumb. And yes, we probably is.

On YouTube, a bad magic productions, if you want to watch it, subscribe on various podcasts, apps to listen to, two episodes coming out on the 12th Wednesday at noon, Pacific time. Back in the store, badmagicmerch.com, the time stock university shirts, the school of wackadoodleness, criminology, science and history, back in the store in gray, black and blue options, also TimeSuck 2020 gathering info. Due to, you know, the whole COVID situation, the gathering is going to be virtual this year. But tickets, we're still going to have it. Tickets are going to go sale next week on August 10th when the episode drops.

Each ticket holder is going to get an exclusive box of gathering 2020 items to use during our virtual community event on November 21st. The Saturday before Thanksgiving, there's going to be a limited number of VIP tickets. People get a little extra stuff with those, 200 of those tickets for even more exclusive access, get some tours and other goodies. These tickets go on sale the minute next week's episode drops. We'll have even more event details next week in a busy week doing some other stuff here in the suckdown.

We just wanted to give everyone a heads up to follow us on Facebook and Instagram for more up-to-date information at Times Up Podcast. And again, next week, tickets drop, August 10th. We're main open to the end of the month other than the VIP tickets, which are gone when they sell out. So see you there suckers. We're not gonna let COVID totally shut down

our annual gathering. We hear bad magic productions. Thanks to our Patreon subscribers are donating an amount. I will announce next week after Patreon processes, the month, you know, subscriptions. I'm going to donate to a charity close to home for me this time. It'll be an amount over $6,000 and it's going to YWCA Idaho.org. And it's earmarked to the General Fund for Idaho County. You can designate your donation,

the comment section of the online donation form at the YWCA Idaho.org's website. A Christy Beckston, a girl I went to high school with, Sam River High back in Rickens Idaho, back when she was Christy Duit. She's been a domestic violence advocate in Idaho County for over eight years, working at a Grangeville.

She said over just the past year, the YWCA in Grangeville, Idaho, just a little town, just a few thousand people helped more than 60 women in Idaho County who've experienced a dramatic trauma due to domestic violence situations. I mean, Jesus, the stories she had to tell visited her when I was back in my hometown area a couple weeks ago. This help was included rent, bus tickets, car repairs, daycare for court dates and fuel. She shared it again, some real horror stories. The need for help is very real, real domestic violence, all too real here in Idaho and a lot of other places.

So happy to help someone doing so much for these women. The money, it's going to go a long ways in this charity. So again, you can go to YWCA Idaho.org, earmark your donation, your donations. Excuse me, to the general fund Idaho County, if you'd like to help around as well. And now you can designate your donation in the comment section of the online donation form, link in the episode description. One more quick thing. Before we get into the BSU, who has won the very first round of the Patreon trivia game, the new game we have in the app? Well, I don't know.

I don't know who's gonna get the cowboy pigeon trophy because we recorded this on Friday. It's past Friday, but slow stroke 95 was in the lead, was 5,576 points. Winners gonna be announced Tuesday on socials at Times Like Podcast, again, on Instagram and Facebook. And then the new round, as you're hearing this, has already started.

So get to play in space, lizards. And yeah, very excited that as you're hearing this, has already started. So get to playing Space Luzards. And yeah, very excited that a lot of you are taking advantage of that game, and we can't wait to send out the first prices and see what you think of it. The cowboy hat, pigeon trophies, I love them so much. And you space, there's just no why, we have that trophy. Finally, very special update.

Coming in today's time-soaker updates. We're gonna hear audio sent in from a former Tony Alamo cult member about what life was like inside the cult. Gonna hear from Kenya intense. Now, now, now, we're gonna get to today's topic. The spaces are time to decide it to have us investigate the investigators.

Let's get to it. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Looking at the Behavior science unit, BSU of the FBI, mostly today, the federal Bureau of Investigation, BSU, one of the original instructional components of the FBI's training division, Quantico, Virginia. Mission was to develop and provide programs of training, research, and consultation in the behavioral and social sciences for the Federal Bureau of Investigation and for law enforcement. You know, the law enforcement community at large in the US

and to improve and enhance administration, operational effectiveness and understanding of violent crime in America. BSU morphed into the behavioral analysis unit in 1997. Currently, the BAU maintains three different behavioral analysis units. And a lot more than those three units used techniques developed by the BSU and the BAU. Many units within the FBI use and have used the techniques and theories developed by this

unit during the 50 odd years. It has been active. Many of the BSU's educational programs eventually developed in the standalone units and centers such as the National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime, NCAVC, undercover safeguard unit, crisis negotiation unit, hostage rescue team, crisis unit negotiation team, CUNT, and employee assistance unit. And maybe one of those is a real. Junior Jaime wishes the crisis unit negotiation team was a real acronym. So I could just think about federal agents trying to ignore the continual snickering they would hear.

Every time they walked out in a public wearing gear was content written all over it. Today we're given the FBI's behavioral science unit and the FBI itself, really the time-subtreatment. We'll check out the FBI's history, both the wins and the warts. We'll answer questions like how much DNA do they actually have on file?

Short answer is a lot. Maybe yours, probably yours. There's a good chance they've already cloned you. Don't look behind you. Cloned you. It's probably back there watching. Cloned you, always watching you. Up or for real, we're gonna look into the DNA database

of the FBI. I hope you decide if you can realistically pull off, get in the way with some murders. I mean, so you can learn interesting info. We're gonna talk about the strange things the FBI has spent years investigating. The surprising public figures that the FBI has created dossiers on or dossiers on, excuse me, throughout history. I always want to put that right there.

They will move to the BSU and the founders of behavioral science. We'll learn about some of their most famous serial killer profiles and what the profilers learn from each killer. We've got some extra info and some old creeps we've talked about in previous sucks. Finally, we'll explore what Hollywood gets wrong about the portrayal of the FBI and their agents and then how you can become an FBI profiler yourself. So let's get to Yip Yip Yon to understand the BAU

and the behavioral science as a discipline. We have to first look at the FBI as a whole. Contrary to what a lot of trucker hats would lead one to believe. The FBI stands for Federal Bureau of Investigation, not Female Body Inspector. FBI is a whole contrary to what a lot of trucker hats would lead one to believe. The FBI stands for Federal Bureau of Investigation, not female body inspector. Side note, if you think female body inspector hats are the height of humor, I have some overpriced Tuxedo T-shirts, and I love Teddy's beer coosies. I'd like to sell you.

The FBI is United States Principal Law Enforcement Agency operating under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Department of Justice. The FBI reports to both the Attorney general and the director of the national intelligence and the director of excuse me national intelligence. The FBI has jurisdiction over violations of more than 200 different categories of federal crimes. Terrorism is the FBI's top investigative priority. Shutting down the next Timothy McVeigh aka noodle Mc drywing before he tries to pull off the

next Oklahoma City bombing type attack. The FBI also investigates all kinds of other crimes. We'll list out their top 10 main criminal focuses here in just a moment. Unlike the Central Intelligence Agency CIA, which technically has no law enforcement authority and focuses on intelligence collection abroad, the FBI is primarily a domestic agency, maintaining 56 field offices in major cities throughout the United States, more than 400 resident agencies and smaller cities and areas across the nation. The FBI headquarters is the J Edgar Hoover Building located in Washington, DC. And the closest office, FBI office to the suck dungeon, it's only about a 40 minute drive for me, 1116 West Riverside Av, Spokane, Washington.

I walked by that place numerous times over the years. What do they do there? uh... one thousand one hundred sixteen west river side avs spokane washington walk by that uh... place numerous times over the years what they will they do their i don't know google won't tell me not unlike it maybe i have a sucked on june bug maybe there's an agent hide and above me right at this very moment

hide and hide on top of the drop down ceiling tiles among you agent knows you know he uh... according to the fb i website these are the fb i's top 10 priorities and goals. One, protect the US from terrorist attacks. Two, protect the US against foreign intelligence operations, espionage.

Three, protect the US against cyber-based attacks and high technology crimes. Four, combat public corruption at all levels. Five, protect civil rights. Six combat national, or excuse me, excuse me transnational slash national criminal organizations enterprises, seven combat major white collar crime, eight combat significant violent crime, nine support federal state local and international partners, and 10 upgrade technology to enable and further the successful performances of its missions as stated above. The FBI has been fighting crime for a while.

They got their start in June 29th, 1908, when Attorney General Charles J. Bonaparte ordered the creation of a special agent force in the Department of Justice. His order reassigned 23 investigators already employed by the department and permanently hired eight more agents from the Treasury Department. So just 31 agents to get started, According to the order of the special agent force was to report to chief examiner Stanley W. Finch, making him the first director of this force. Director Finch.

I like that. I feel like that place. That sounds like a solid FBI name. Director Finch, these are agents Jackson and Carter. Those names sound way more FBI-ish to me than say like. Director Tinkle, these are agents little in crispy bottom. March of 1909, agent general George W. Wickersham, named this new force, the Bureau of investigation. FBI's actually gone through many names. 1933.

Yeah, whenever you get into governmental stuff, the acronym shit is so fucking annoying. Right? I'm gonna agree on that. I had to do so much rearranging and research. When did this particular acronym start? Why can't you settle on it? The B-O-I, Bureau of Invest, that's fine. You could have left it there the entire time.

Right, but the behavioral science unit goes to behavioral analysis unit. Like, who does that? Some new director comes and says, no, I'm like a, no, that acronym doesn't work for me. Let's give this same group of professionals, the 17th acronym they've had in the past 16 years. Anyway, it's just personal pet beef.

Reminds me when I talked about like in Russia, you talk about the secret police and there's like fucking 45 different agencies. Over like a 60 year period. Anyway, the 1933, the B.O.I. was connected to the Bureau prohibition under an umbrella department called the Division of Investigation. Right?

They love it. They love their acronyms. The D.O.I. Then on January 1, 1936, the Division of Investigation officially became the Federal Bureau of Investigation because you can't just call it division, that's crazy talk. You can't leave that forever. Now, it's got to be the Federal Bureau. People have been talking a lot about the feds ever since.

Initially though, not a lot of people talking about him. Let's back up a tiny bit. The B.O.I. did not become powerful overnight. For many years, there's a little more than a rinky dink operation staff by just a couple of agents. 1932, 1932, the B.O.I. had actually gotten so small, it's entire crime lab. I think when I think about the FBI crime lab,

now I picture a lot of scientists, a lot of researchers, 1932, one dude, one man operation. He was in a single room that doubled as a smoking lounge in the department of justice. That's insulting, right? This guy's investigation lab. It's like we're also where people just come to smoke on their breaks.

He's got their fucking work with beakers and shit. Smoke clout around him, you know, agents talking about, I see the Yankees, but the red talk's set today. I'm trying to do my analysis. The loan technician special agent, Charles Apple, used a borrowed microscope, wiretapping kit, and basic chemicals to analyze handwriting

and examine other crime scene evidence. Porridge and Apple, one man banned, used borrowed equipment, poor little dude, and I just sitting behind a cartoonishly large pile of paperwork, probably face bearing in his hands, drinking about 30 cups of coffee a day, dealing with every bullshit, two phrases you'd hear from him far more than any others

would probably just, I'm doing my best! Maybe like, and not now, not now! I was in a few years, additional experts joined the team. The FBI moved to its current headquarters, the J Edgar Hoover Building, located at 9.35, Pennsylvania Avenue, in October 1974. Until they had more technicians and poor agent Apple, poor agent not now.

Working on their investigation, the first person to be called director of the FBI acronym was William J. Burns. Mm, Mr. Burns. Yes, man, this is excellent. He wouldn't last long. The early 1920s companies were permitted to take oil from the U.S. Navy's reserve supplies at T-POT Dome, Washington. It's part of a shady private deal. And when Senator Burton K. Wheeler, Senator Wheeler, began looking into this agreement,

FBI director Burns was sent to gather dirt on Wheeler to force him to shut the fuck up. When it came out that he had done that, Burns' reputation was irreparably damaged and he was forced to resign. No smith is not excellent. He was replaced by Jay Edgar Hoover. Somebody arguably much more corrupt. Hoover, we've talked about him a few times on the suck. Son of a vacuum baron who lost his penis and a tragic boys will be boys' sexual experiment or he and his brother both put their penises in different vacuums and estranged eventually gory masturbation race. If you remember that entirely made up bit of Hoover history from the Dillinger Suck. Hoover landed his first job with the Department

of Justice in 1917 at just 22 years old by 1924. He'd become the head of the B.O.I. when Hoover died in 1977, he'd spent 48 years, 62% of his life at the helm of the FBI. FBI directors now limited to 10-year terms. And again, to learn more about Jager Hoover, check out the Dillinger Suck episode 184. The educational departments of the FBI, departments that would later launch the BSU, started in 1928 when the B.O.I. and instituted a theoretical and practical training course for new special agents. During a two-month assignment to the Washington Field Office, new agents were now instructed in

bureau rules and procedures provided with practical exercises and crime investigation and evaluated by experienced agents. With the start of World War II, the FBI amped up its monitoring of internal threats to the U.S. national security. Most of the people on the list were Japanese-American, with some German-Americans and Italian-American strongmen as well. All three groups, of course, representing the Axis powers. The U.S. and its allies were allies. We're fighting against Germany, Italy, and Japan.

German-Americans were getting scrutinized for the second time. In the first half of the 20th century, they'd gotten this stink guy and thrown into internment camps during World War I. Now they're getting thrown back into internment camps in World War II. Speakers of Germans and comms, come on down to Sweden. There's a new crosscafé in the mall shop and he ended crowds. Felt a dine on sex to call of us. The whole menu is mostly beef.

I promise. Get out of here, you're him. You're all him, sorry about that, you guys. Two years after Pearl Harbor, the FBI was less focused on German Americans, more focused on Japanese Americans, lot more focused. 127,000 Japanese Americans would be rounded up and forcibly imprisoned in internment camps

during the war compared to only 11,000 Germans and only 3,000 Italians. Pretty fucked up. Really fucked up when you think about how all these people were innocent until proven guilty. And almost, you know, all of them were in fact innocent. If you were a Japanese American in 1943, not already living in an internment camp, and you thought federal agents were probably spying on you, you're probably right. President Roosevelt actually ordered the complete removal of Japanese Americans from the West Coast.

The FBI continued to monitor those people being held in camps and even recruited informants to report on trouble makers. Seems as if they may have taken Aaron on the side of caution a wee bit far, to protect the country. But easy for me to say, you know, that's since I've never lived through a threat to the world freedom nearly as great as when

here at Hito and Hitler and Mussolini were hell-bent on taking over the entire world and damn here did just that. In a case of extreme irony, the FBI was used again to help the Japanese American detainees relocate safely back to their old communities and protect them from hateful attacks by their white neighbors at the conclusion of the war. Just a bit awkward. Hello, Mr. Tanaka, I'm Agent Carter. You may remember me to me a few years ago when I dragged you and your family out of your home in Seattle.

Sorry to hear you lost your hardware business and family home over that bit of national security work I was doing. Anywho, I want to be in charge of transporting you back to Seattle from Arkansas. Where should we drop you off? I mean, your home's out. Another family lives there now.

Of course, the Mitchell's I believe. I heard they got one hell of a deal in the place. Eeh. While we're on the topic of innocent people being incarcerated, let me bring up another blemish in the history of the agency that is supposed to investigate corruption, not be corrupt itself.

And one of the lowest points of its law enforcement history, the Bureau helped frame four innocent men for the murder of Edward Deegan in 1965. At 11 p.m. March 12, 1965, Deegan's body found lying on his back covered in blood, 12-inch screwdriver near his left hand in an alleyway in Chelsea, Massachusetts. The 35-year-old with a long criminal history was suspected in a recent $40,000 hold-up of a local mob boss or excuse me, local mob connected, bookie associated with the patriarchy family, the crime family out there. And he was lured to the location of his death on the pretext of participating in a lucrative

book burglary. He was shot six times. Local police believed he was shot by three, you know, different men, three different weapons involved in his execution, 145 caliber, two separate 38 caliber guns. With an hours of Deacon's death, the Boston Field Office sent a memo to director Jay Edgar Hoover identifying Joseph Barbosa, Vincent Flemmi, Ronald Ronnie the Pig, Cassio, Wilfred Roy French, is all being present in the alleyway at the scene of the crime. The FBI also knew that Barbosa, aka Joseph, the animal Barbosa, and Jimmy, the bear

flammy, they were the murderers. So, it sounds like, you know, one guy said one guy, one guy said two. And I guess, level these names. Pig, animal, and the bear. How far would it be to be flying the wall? Like a huge 1960s New England mob gathering. Hey, Tony, come meet the Providence boys. This is, this is Scully, the jackal's Hortora.

And that's our South Fat Muscrap, I'm binna over there. This joke over here, the Kuhnskin hat, that's Ricky the Rockhoon, let's get to tell you. He's in the same crew as John Cameltitz Fatello. Louis Sleepy, Bob Boone, Santini. Bobby Animal Crack, a Buffalo Lino, not to be confused with his cousin. Bobby Lizard Lane on some Hot Rocks,

and join himself Buffalo Lino. Let's grab some drinks. Hey, skinny clam. Wounded rock chuck. Get my boys over here. Whatever they want. Back to the FBI. That was too fun for me. The FBI had bugged local mafia's crime boss's office and heard information pertaining to the men being tasked with taking Deacon out just days before he was killed. And the FBI made sure not to release that obviously important evidence to police detectives investigating Deegan's murder. Why would they hide it? Because in addition to being due to did mob hits

and had cool names, both Vincent, the bear, and Joseph the animal were also valuable FBI informants. So FBI agent Paul Rico promised Roy French and Ronald Kaseo, lesser sentences if they would corroborate some bullshit never happened to testimony from Barbosa Who would blame some of his associates for the murder that he actually committed You know wasn't me son of a choppy trifra a croza is donny elegant sandhill cranes get yours Oh the FBI figured that they wanted to keep getting information, you know

From their informants if they're gonna do that, they needed to protect them from prosecution. Uh, Barbos had told a jury that four men were involved in Diggins death, Louis Greco, Henry, Tameleo, Ronald, Kaseo, and Peter LeMone, uh, those four men gangsters, but not Diggins murderers were sentenced to life in prison. And again, the FBI knew they were innocent, uh, December of two, at least for that crime. December of 2000, Justice Department finally decided to investigate this. And according to a report conducted by the committee on government reform in 2004, the information he provided was contradicted

by information already known to federal officials, which rendered Barbosa's testimony suspect. It is inconceivable that federal law enforcement and officials, officials, did not know what Barbosa was going to tell the grand jury and what he did tell the grand jury. Therefore, it is very likely that at least some federal officials understood that Barbosa had committed perjury before the Suffolk County grand jury and that he was prepared to provide testimony at trial that was not true.

After this FBI cover-up was revealed, the US government paid $102 million to the defendants and their families. At the time, the single largest sum ever awarded from the federal government under the Federal Tort Claims Act. By that time, however, Henry Tamello, or Tim Leo, and Lewis Greco had already died in prison. His name just doesn't fucking look right like a Tamello. Maybe Tamello spent the final almost 20 years of his life in prison, and Greco had already died in prison. Oh, his name just doesn't fucking look right like a, to Melio, maybe.

To Melio spent the final almost 20 years of his life in prison, and Greco spent the final 30 years of his life in prison. Peter Lemone and Joseph Salvatys convictions were vacated in January 2001, and they were released from prison after being wrongfully imprisoned for 33 years. Eee. Hey, Peter the snap and turtle. Joseph the fruit bat.

You guys took some kind of long vacation, huh? That settlement wasn't enough scratch for you. You know, we got common Mustang nipples, Capone. We do some help moving some product down in the South end. A lemon and salvati, salvati? Yeah, we're not entirely innocent. Still wrong that they were framed, but you know, they were also mafia guys

by all accounts throughout his time in prison. Lemon actually continued his association with the Patriarcha crime family. And in July 2010, Lomon pleaded no contest to charge the loan sharkan, extortion, and for running at least four illegal gambling parlors in middle-sex New Jersey. After all that, he busted all over again, less than a decade later. He had 25% of $102 million settlement. Even after lawyer fees, he had to have gotten $5, $10 ten million dollars easy clearly he liked the lifestyle as much as he liked the money to his gangster credit he did avoid prison after getting a plea deal for those crimes and then

he died in 2017 a free man at the age of 83 a salvati whose criminal record begins in 1954 was working odd jobs owed barboza four hundred dollars at the time of deacon's murder he refused to pay the debt he he filched on the animal andalvati's lawyers believed that Barbosa, the first in Boston recruited for the FBI witness protection program, set Zalvati up simply to settle old scores. Today, Zalvati is still alive at 87 years old, living in Boston with his wife and probably at least Jay Walker, right? Or not, not, not, not come and do a complete stop, stop signs. If he's not committing additional crimes. some crimes anyone to prison all those years because he didn't pay the fucking animal four hundred dollars

uh... now is now let's talk a little about something the fby might be known for even more than work with gangster informants like like in some scores kids score seziflick uh... it's gigantic criminal database does the fby have your fingerprints to the have mine you don't want to have to uh... be a one criminal to have fingerprints? You don't want to have to be a wanted criminal, to have fingerprints on it. You don't have to be, excuse me,

a wanted criminal to have fingerprints on file with the FBI. If you've ever been fingerprinted for a background check, like for a driver's license or a job, then the FBI probably has those store prints. The organization keeps them in the integrated automated fingerprint identification system located in Clarksburg, West Virginia. So they do probably have your prints.

Good luck getting away with murder if you're not wearing gloves. Like some kind of creepy ex-boyfriend, they also collect hair. They keep over 5,000 samples of human and animal hair for comparative investigative analysis purposes, Carrie T. Owen, unit chief for the trace evidence unit at the FBI laboratory. Rides hair evidence is one of the most common types of evidence encountered in criminal investigations. When hair is collected from a crime scene, investigators compare it to the cataloged hair on file to determine with relative certainty,

the ethnicity, and from which body, or which, you know, body part or part of the body it came from. What about DNA? Does the FBI have your DNA info? They have access to mine, if they can get a court order. If you've ever submitted your DNA to a genetic testing company like I have, like 23 and me, then the FBI theoretically could get a hold of your DNA. You don't have a hip protections with these third party sites, which means that they can

give your DNA law enforcement without your consent. According to 23 and me's websites, they have to quote comply with court orders, subpoenas, search warrants, or other requests that we determine are legally valid. They also say that to date, they have not given any customer information to law enforcement, but is that true? Or is that what the FBI has told them to say publicly? Gaining access to this type of info can be viewed as an enormous invasion of privacy. Terrible example of government overreach.

Part of a slippery slope, leaves us all living some sort of Orwellian 1924 thought police, totalitarian dystopian nightmare. Viewing it in this light, my opinion is not paranoid. However, this type of privacy access also puts in very nasty people behind bars. While not an FBI agent, former Contra Costa,

County Sheriff's Office detective Paul Holes used this type of genetic sleuthing to put the Golden State killer Joseph James, J.A. Angelou behind bars as we learned in that suck. And if you think collecting hair and DNA is strange, check this out. The FBI also has employees who will glue your shredded files together. Your trusty paper shredder will not stop the FBI from putting you behind bars. These poor employees are called forensic document examiners and reconstructing shredded documents is one of their very specialized jobs.

Some are also handwriting experts who work with cases of contested wills, sports memorabilia fraud, suicide notes, others examined charred and liquid soaked documents, decode tire tread and shoe prints, and figure out exactly which office machine you use to destroy your shady document. I like the job of reconstructing shredded paper. Oh my God. I mean, that literally sounds like the type of jobs someone would do in like a dark comedy movie where they die and then they wake up in actual hell

and they find out that they're in some huge cubicle zoo in office and they have to put shredded papers back together. That's their job in hell. And then right when they finally, almost got all the papers put back together from like one, you know, trash can, then some demon supervisor, you know,

just comes out and hears from a paper, or is trying to paper, God fuck! They go back to reconstructing all these documents all over again. That'll be my hell. You ever tried putting together a puzzle, like a jigsaw puzzle?

I didn't want a few years ago, and not relaxing at all to me. It is an exercise and madness. It is a heart attack and dooser. Just what the fuck? I've tried to connect this to a piece like literally every other piece. Are you sure you didn't touch it?

Are you positive? You did not at least one piece on the floor. I had to walk away. I'm gonna kick this goddamn fold-out table across the floor, burn this puzzle. Crazy lengths, FBI technicians will go to solve a case. Group of them wants track to Middle Eastern terrorists by mining falafel sale data. 2005, 2006, the FBI mine Grocery restored data in San Francisco in San Jose and search of clues

that would lead them to Iranian terrorists. As reported by Wired, the idea was that a spike in safe falafel sales combined with other data would lead to Iranian secret agents. The idea was that a spike in safe for lawful sales combined with other data would lead to Iranian secret agents The program was called no joke total falafel awareness It was shut down by the head of the FBI's criminal investigations unit Michael A. Mason who said that what they were doing is probably legal Which is weird? Exzaining your DNA without you know your permission. That's fine But tracking down regional falafel sales too far, too far. We're

lined to draw. I hope in that operation name was tossed out in meetings. I actually hope that people weren't laughing. That's funnier to me if they took it seriously. Agent Carter, it's time we take things to the next level. It's time we will launch total falafel awareness. So they may have your hair, DNA, shredded documents. They may know what kind of middle eastern street food you like, but is the FBI listing to your conversations? Yeah, maybe. The FBI first began wiretapping way back in the 1920s to arrest people smuggling alcohol

during the prohibition era. The use of early wiretapping naturally led to a serious discussion on whether it was legal for the FBI to even do so, given concerns over privacy and surveillance. Those hang-ups about privacy pun intended would be dialed in Resolves, 1927, that year, Olmsted versus United States case, which involved a bootlegger, Roy Olmsted, who's arrested based on evidence gained from wiretapping would reach this Supreme Court. Roy Olmsted was a bootlegger who was born in Beaver City, Nebraska. That's about the Yip Yip Yaw Yes Hogue, Hog Folk Dog Folk Yist, a name profession in hometown combo I've ever heard. Names Olmsted, Roy Olmsted, you can call him Whiskey Pete.

And I've been having a Munch on, South knee, I had no cricket back in Beaver City, Nebraska. Ultimately the Supreme Court decided that wiretapping did not count as an unlawful search and seizure procedure, which meant it did not violate the Fourth Amendment. The only condition they gave was that nobody's home was to be broken into in the process of wiretapping. Almost it was sentenced to four years with hard labor to find $8,000 for conspiracy to violate the National Prohibition Act. The FBI historically has loved a wiretapp.

They can and still do wiretap phones. They have to get a court order, but they can do it. They can also theoretically tap into your text messages, video chats, and more. Harder to pull off on a technical level with software security and encryption features, but legally very possible. One of the most famous FBI wiretaps of all time,

this was the wiretap in the bugging of civil rights icon Martin Luther King, Jr. Dr. King. Oddly enough, it was MLK's, I have a dream speech delivered to protesters gathered around the Lincoln Memorial in Washington DC on August 28, 1963. The convinced J Edgar Hoover that King was, quote, the most dangerous and effective leader in the country. I say Oddly, but from touch on Hoover and other sucks, although we should probably research him a little bit more before saying this, he seemed like he was a real morally bankrupt

piece of shit. I wanted those people to do a lot of shady stuff under the guise of the ends justify the means. Hoover launched an FBI campaign to tap King's phones and label him a communist and a pervert propaganda and slander, historically not just a tool like, you know, used by countries like the Soviet Union and North Korea, been used plenty in the States as well by agencies like the FBI. Uh, FBI documents claim without evidence regarding an attendant at one of King's conferences, and this is a quote, so please forgive old time he raised this language.

One Negro minister in attendance later expressed his disgust with the behind the scene drinking fornication and homosexuality. The document also alleged several Negro and white prostitutes were brought in from the Miami area in all night sex orgy was held with these prostitutes and some of the delegates. Hoover's obsession with King's supposed to debatuous ways most likely had little to do with a legit investigation, a lot to do with Hoover's own repressed sexual issues. It's been alleged in film and many a booked that Hoover a man who aggressively denounced homosexuality and infidelity publicly may have privately been a homosexual transvestite. And then his own self-loathing led him to attack others for what he perceived to be their

sexual moral transgressions. Hoover seemed to be obsessed with what he perceived to be King's sexual deviancy. In a memo, Hoover said that King was a Tomcat with obsessive degenerate sexual urges. On one occasion, the FBI mailed alleged sex tapes of King's adultery in a letter to Coretta Scott King, his wife in an attempt to destroy their marriage. What the fuck?

Gretelator remarked that I couldn't make much out of it. It was just a lot of mumble jumbo. The letter accused King of being sexually psychotic and a colossal fraud. Hoover may have even, excuse me, went even further to fuck with Dr. King He allegedly sent an anonymous letter threatening the King had just 34 days to take his own life Before his filthy abnormal fraudulent self was laid bare to the nation There's no record that indicates the King ever responded to the letter and nothing was ever a bear to the nation

I've often thought about the Lord acting quote, right? Power tends to corrupt absolute power corrupts absolutely. Hoover had a lot of power. Maybe that's why he seems very corrupt. He was the head of the US largest, most powerful federal investigative body for roughly half a century. That seems to maybe have turned him into a tyrant. Quick notes since it was brought up and it's been over two years since we did the Martin Luther

King Jr. suck, did Hoover's accusations have any basis in reality? Well according to Ralph Abernathy, who's a civil rights activist and collaborative with King for many years, King did have quote, a weakness for women. Although he understood and believed in the biblical prohibition against sex outside of marriage, it was just that he had a particularly difficult time with that temptation. Many subsequent biographers have claimed that King had several affairs during his marriage, it was just that he had a particularly difficult time with that temptation. Many subsequent biographers have claimed the king had several affairs during his marriage, including one with whom he saw almost daily in the months leading up to his assassination. Credit King, Martin's wife, never believed any of these allegations, not even when she

listened to the FBI recordings of King's phone calls. In her memoir, she wrote, I set up our real-to-real recorder and listened. I have read scores of reports talking about the scourlest activities of my husband. Once again, there was nothing at all incriminating on the tape. It was a social event with people laughing and telling dirty jokes,

but I did not hear Martin's voice on it. And there was nothing about sex or anything else resembling the lies, J Edgar and the FBI were spreading. Did King have affairs? As I said, way back in the King's Suck. Yeah, you may have probably did. Should that be what we focus on when it comes to his legacy? No, I don't think so. Never said he was perfect in any one of his speeches, a single one.

Definitely check out sucka soda 42 for more on Dr. King back to FBI wiretapping. FBI was all over the place when it came to wiretapping people in the public eye for their connections and ideas, especially artists considered to be or have ties to communist during the mid 20th century. American protest singer Phil Oaks made his name writing hundreds of songs. He was super prolific in the 1960s and 1970s criticizing the Vietnam War and the US government in general. An FBI surveillance may have driven him into an early grave. By the mid 70s, his drinking had become a serious problem. He was terrifying friends and family with what they thought were wild claims of being stalked by the FBI and the CIA. They

thought he was paranoid. He wasn't. Oaks tragically took his own life at the age of 35 and 1976 after a long bout with depression. After his death, it was revealed that the FBI did have a 500 page file on him and they'd been working on it for years, even after he had died. He was being, you know, followed to an extent by the FBI. Surveied.

Oaks wasn't the only person that thought he was being watched by the FBI, told people, you know, people told him then that he was being crazy, only for it to be revealed after they died, that they indeed were not being crazy and that they were being watched. So fucked up, just to die,

and I haven't anyone believe you. In the last year of his life, the year he spent here and catch him Idaho, hometown of Reverend Dr. Paisley, a renowned writer, Ernest Hemingway wrote the following, they've bugged everything. Everything's bugged. Can't use the phone. May little intercepted. Since this was coming from a hard-drinking man who suffered from depression, Hemingway was persuaded to take shock therapy. He did, and the treatment did not help him, seem to make things worse, Hemingway would go on to take his own life in July 2nd, 1961. Two decades later, it's revealed that Hemingway had been absolutely right in his convictions.

The FBI had been tracking him since the 1940s. They had been tapping his phones. They even tapped a phone that he had at his room at a psychiatric hospital. Pretty fucked up. Then there was John Lennon, one of the Beatles. Lennon, not shy about his political leanings, he was actively anti-war, even used his honeymoon with Yoko Ono, one of the most god-awful vocalists in the history of popular music, in my opinion, as an opportunity to stage a non-violent protest, take inspiration from sit-ins, John and Yoko stayed in bed for two weeks and what they called a bedding to end

the Vietnam War. And when he spoke out on behalf of a man who had sold two joints to an undercover cop, he was put under FBI surveillance. The immigration and naturalization service even tried to deport London back to England. And I wasn't just jumping on the Yoko Ono is the worst bandwagon. She really is. In my opinion, one of the worst vocalists of all time counting only people who have made it to the level of say, like appeared on like a television singing. Check out this little snippet. I actually forgot how absolutely terrible she was. This is her singing. We're all water on the Dick Cabot show.

And what I think is either 1971 or 1972 the video doesn't identify it but that's when she would have been on there. I will say this song is a pretty good track to Air Banjo cover. It's the rare song where the Air Banjo is actually way less annoying than the vocals. thing don't keep on fucking so you can't hear her. Think I think I don't think I think I think I think I think this is better. Okay, I'll stop. Uh, and Yoko, what the fuck? Makes you wonder if Lennon hired someone to shoot him. Just to get away from her. The list of celebrities, the FBI is kept a close eye and goes on and on.

Steve Jobs, Marilyn Monroe, Lucille Ball, Truman Capote, Whitney Houston, Helen Keller, George Steinbrenner, Jackie Robinson, rock Hudson, John Denver, Charlie Chaplin, Dick Clark, all these people have been surveyed by the FBI at one time or another. And if you think you're on their radar, you can actually request a copy for your own files, or of your own files, you know, that they have. And I didn't make up Helen Keller. Deaf and blind, she was under FBI surveillance for a good portion of her life. I think her life would be a great suck, by the way.

Other public figures have been approached by the FBI to collaborate with the FBI, including Walt Disney. During the McCarthyism period of the 1950s, when people suspected of being communist, had a career ruined and were even imprisoned at times, Walt Disney took action by becoming an FBI informant. He reported the names of those people whom he suspected to be communist to the FBI. Were there any commies working on his cartoons? And in return, Disney got to film

the Mickey Mouse Club at the FBI headquarters. Why they would want to do that is beyond anyone's knowledge. Walt was an FBI informant from 1940 until his death in 1966. Hoover wanted to make sure that Mickey Mouse wasn't spouting out any pink-o communist bullshit Gee mini want to go to the state sponsored dance They have abandoned soda pop and candy. It's all free Everything's taken care of when you let the state take care of you

Perhaps the most surprising character on our list of celebrities and FBI associations is Borat Yes, that Borat. And the 2000s, the FBI managed to find time and resources to create a file for British actor and comedian, Sasha Barron Cohen. As Borat, he traveled across the US, fucked with people, just an amazing level, in my opinion. Ninja level troll, some of the funniest shit I've ever watched in my life.

And Cohen told Fresh Air host Terry Gross in March of 2012. Sometimes it was a police, then the FBI were following us for a while. They had so many complaints that there was a Middle Eastern man driving through America in an ice cream van that the FBI assigned a team to follow us. The FBI is investigating a lot of weird shit over the years. In the late 1950s, the FBI looked into whether extra-century perception ESP could be used as an espionage tool according to files declassified in April of 2011. One agent wrote in a memo,

there is no limit to the value which could accrue to the FBI, complete an undetectable access to mail, visual access to buildings. The possibilities are unlimited. Glad that hopefully they weren't able to access that. In 1960, the Bureau gave up after finding no scientific support for the potential of ESP.

These are what they want you to believe. Probably some stranger things type, FBI ESP Laboratories somewhere, ripping a hole into the upside down right now. The FBI's also investigated songs. During the 1960s, analysts at the FBI's cutting edge laboratories spent more than two years investigating the lyrics to the Kingsman hit pop song,

Louis Louis, not even kidding. Rumors swir years investigating the lyrics to the Kingsman hit pop song Louis Louis. Not even kidding. Rumors swirled at the time that the catchy but portee recorded tunes, Garbled verses contained pornographic language, concerned parents to write into the government expressing outrage. How dare those Portland Oregon based garage rockers turn America's youth into a bunch of hippie fuck machines with their Louis Louis sex orgy bullshit.

The FBI subjected various versions of the song to rigorous audio tests. It produced a hundred and twenty page report on Louis Louis. They concluded that any messages if they existed were quote unintelligible at any speed. I don't know man, maybe it's in listen hard enough. I don't know, man, maybe it's in Listen to Harden of Louie Louie Oh, no, we got to go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you smacked up with who knows. The FBI also went after a movie many considered to be one of the most wholesome holiday films in existence. It's a wonderful life. An FBI officer who saw it before its official release on January 7th, 1947 said it was

plum full of communist propaganda. In a memo to the director to Hoover, it was written, the film represented rather obvious attempts to discredit bankers by casting Lionel Barrymore as a scrooge type so that he could be the most hated man in the picture. According to the memo, this kind of veiled anti-capitalist portrayal is a common trick used by communists to malign the upper class. A picture Hoover sitting behind his desk scowl and slamming his fish on the table. Damn them! Greed is good!

Greed is good. The FBI investigated found that there were indeed communists propaganda messages in the movie. Nevertheless, the movie still premiered. Went on to become one of those beloved movies of all time. So enjoy this holiday season. You pinko piece of shit. All right, you like a wonderful life? Why don't you get a life size statue of Stalin? Put it in your big red living room. You can jerk him off for you.

Gobble up his George Begley comic bullshit. Okay, easy boat jangles. Bojangles even get a little bit riled by all that. I'm gonna talk about some good FBI stuff here in a moment as well. Some of the agencies best ever agents. First though, I have to at least mention the FBI's 10 most wanted list. I was fascinated by the 10 most wanted list as a kid.

Right, the nation's most dangerous criminals. When I heard about somebody on the FBI's 10 most wanted, oh man, they're one of the worst people. I got to hope they're not coming to my town. They'll kill everybody. Interesting how that list was invented. The FBI's 10 most wanted fugitives, publicity campaign, came about in 1950 when a reporter asked the agency for the names and descriptions of the toughest guys on his inventory of targets, the resulting article garnered so much attention by the public,

but Hoover decided to begin issuing an official list. And the list has powerfully illustrated how effective the FBI has been historically catching their man. They generally do go after men, also, more than that in just a moment. Since the program's inception, 484 of the 518 criminals who have made the top 10 have been apprehended or located. That's a success rate of over 93%. So far, only 34 have managed to evade capture. All but 10 of those 518 criminals have been men. That's 98%. In fact, it took a full 18 years before the first woman was featured in 1968. Ruth, Iseman Shire, the Honduran daughter of an Austrian Jewish refugee who in 1968 participated

in the kidnapping for ransom of Eris, Barba Jan Mackel in Decatur, Georgia. Her boyfriend and co-conspirator Gary Steven Chris, was captured after a two day police chase, but Ruth fled, remained free for an additional 79 days, finally captured since the seven years in prison, and then released on parole after four years and deported to Honduras. Okay, now let's take a brief look

at some of the greatest FBI agents of all time. And then we're gonna dig into the behavioral science unit for the remainder of this suck, but before we do that, time for a quick sponsor break. Thank you for supporting the sponsors, the sponsor us and support us here at TimeSuck. Special agent Robert Lamphere grew up a short drive from the suck dungeon in Idaho's Silver Valley. A group in Mullin went to the University of Idaho. He was a vandal just like Reverend Dr. Paisley, right? Just a couple of kids who weren't able to get into Gonzaga like me.

Anywho, that was just done doing tech and ice show. Lamphere was one of the FBI's most valuable agents, if not the most valuable during the 40s and 50s. He was responsible for the capture of several Soviet spies involved in extracting military secrets from the U.S. His involvement in the U.S. Atomic Counter-Spanage Program led to the unmasking of aspiring headed by Julius and Ethel Rosenberg who were convicted of leaking secrets about the development of the atomic bomb to Russia.

He also unmasked Klaus Fuks, a German theoretical physicist who had released nuclear secrets in the aftermath of World War II that allowed the Soviets to stage their first nuclear test. Damn you Klaus! Another hot shot FBI agent Clyde Tolson, Laredo Missouri's Clyde Tolson was the FBI's second command for a full 42 years from 1930 all the way to 1972. He was a Robin to Hoover's Batman. He was J Edgar Hoover's closest friend and protege during his years in the FBI and as the rumor goes, his long time lover as well. Tulson joined the FBI in 1927, moved up to assistant director within three years.

He participated in the arrest of notorious public enemies like Alvin Creepy Carpice, Harry Cranky rattlesnake, Brunette, constantly at Hoover's side. And I did make up the Harry Brunette nickname. I still keep thinking about all those dumb nicknames. Hoover and Tulson worked together, spent their spare time together, took the vacations together, even buried a few yards from one another. His influence on the director was truly one of the most significant forces in shaping the modern FBI. You may have heard the next FBI agent as deep throat.

His actual name was Mark Felt, before Edward Snowden and WikiLeaks. It was rare for a whistleblower to become a well-known public figure. Mark Felt, aka deep throat, became legendary for providing inside information on the Watergate scandal, taken his code name for the 1970s porn movie, Deepthrow, easy sass bro. Felt frequently met with reporters Woodward and Bernstein in order to give them the intelligence which the FBI was uncovering during its own investigation to the infamous break in at the Democratic Party headquarters. This intelligence would eventually lead to the resignation of President Nixon.

This information was crucial in revealing to the world the full extent of the cover-up, you know, in the CIA, FBI, even the president's office. Throats identity remained a mystery until 30 years after the events of the Watergate scandal when he was outed in a vanity fair magazine. Our next agent infiltrated the mafia for almost three decades. That's longer than most games of monopoly. Joaquin Jack Garcia, one of the most successful moles of all time infiltrating the Gambino crime family for a record breaking period of 26 years. That's insane. To work under cover for 26 years.

Born in Cuba in the early 50s, the imposing six foot four Garcia successfully played dozens of underworld roles, and over a hundred different operations with many of his things being orchestrated simultaneously. The most prominent of his performances was as Jack Falcone, a supposed Sicilian thief and drug dealer. Thanks to Garcia's impressive record,

he's often referred to as the FBI's greatest undercover agent. Right, how many cool nicknames, right? He had over those 26 years. Hey, Johnny Two Squirrels, Messina. You ever met Eddie Hungry Grizzly DeZuno? You ever met Sammy Talkock or Sloan Baudi? You ever shook hands with Vincent Chenzel Huckaberry Pancake, sweetie. Immortalized in the 1997 film Donnie Brasco, FBI agent Joe Pastoni, another undercover

special agent with nerves of steel. In the mid 1970s, the FBI needed an agent who was willing to spend several years undercover in the Bononel Crime family in order to get convictions against its most prominent members. They needed someone of Italian descent, someone who could speak Italian and most importantly, someone who wouldn't break. Pastoni joined the mob, masquerade, and is Donnie Brasco, an Italian jewel thief. His five years spent with the family made him one of the longest lasting undercover agents in history.

His testimony led to the conviction of over 30 gangsters in that organization. Damn you, Donnie Brasco. Donnie lying bearer, cool to Brasco, Donnie snickie wood pack of Brasco. Donnie club sandwiched with a side potato salad. The guy with the rep potatoes, not too much egg brass go you son of a bitch I'll stop now okay now it's time back to uh now it's time to circle back and dig into the BSU for finally see we did a lot of context the FBI now with the behavioral science unit 1972 it was created to investigate serial rape and homicide cases, originally 10 agents and

part of the training division. 1976, FBI supervisory special agents, Johnny Douglas and Robert wrestler, members of the behavioral science unit, began working on and compiling the centralized database of serial offenders, serial killer investigation here we come, 1984 serial killer hunting became official. President Reagan announced the formation of the FBI's National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime, and its mission

was to identify and track serial killers. At the same time, the FBI's violent criminal apprehension program began. It was formed to link serial crimes across jurisdictions using a computer program. And then in 1984 as well, the behavioral science unit split into the behavioral science unit and the behavioral science investigation

Or investigative support of unit again more acronyms the the behavioral science unit became primarily responsible for the training of FBI national academy students in the variety of specialized topics concerning the behavior and social sciences and the behavioral science Investigative support of unit Support unit became primarily responsible for the investigation criminals as you can see the behavioral science unit was always just a small piece of a much larger investigative puzzle, one of many different FBI research tools practices and acronyms. It just happened to capture the public imagination in a lot bigger way than most other FBI units, maybe because being a good profiler, appears to have like an element of almost magic to it.

If you're a good profiler, you can end up looking like a true psychic. Someone who could, you know, given some clues from an attacker, some data from similar attacker, you know, attackers can, can, can paint a psychological portrait of a killer and predict future attack patterns. Today the BSU has evolved into among other things, the behavioral analysis unit, conduct specialized and applied training for new FBI agents and intelligence analysts attending the FBI National Academy. The BAU conducts training research and does consultations and areas from juvenile crime to terrorism,

distress management and law enforcement. Within the BAU, our five smaller units, known by their numbers, behavioral analysis unit one deals with counterterrorism, arson and bombings. BAU unit two, handles threats, cybercrime, public corruption, unit three investigates crimes against children, unit four investigates crimes against adults, also runs ViCap, a database where characteristics of a crime, murder, sexual assault, kidnapping, or missing persons can be entered in and compared to other crimes with similar characteristics. It helps law enforcement obviously. Solve crimes take place in different states, and then unit five handles research, strategy,

and instruction. Because jurisdiction in the US is split between federal and local authorities, the BAU can't just come in and fight crime wherever it wants, whenever it wants. The BAU only joins an investigation according to the FBI's website when they're asked to assist on a case by members of other federal, state, local, or international law enforcement agencies. And the BAU doesn't just interpret crime scenes that make profiles of unknown offenders. As kinds of crime evolved, change forms, grow in frequency, the BAU analyzes these crimes

so that law enforcement agencies across the country can solve and prevent these crimes. So they're like a half investigative unit, half dirt bag think tank. One crime that has tragically grown in frequency in the last 20 years is one we covered two weeks ago in TimeSuck, school shootings. The BAU recently published school shooters a threat assessment perspective. I read it. And one of those interesting things I found was this quote, school shootings and other forms of school violence are not just a school's problem or law enforcement problem. They involve schools, families,

and the communities. An adolescent comes to school with a collective life experience, both positive and negative, shaped by the environments of family, school, peers, community, and culture. Out of that collective experience come values, prejudices, biases, emotions, and the students' response to training, stress, and authority. His or her behavior at school is affected by the entire range of experiences and influences.

No one factor is decisive. By the same token, however, no one factor is completely without effect, which means that when a student has shown signs of potential violent behavior, schools and other community institutions do have the capacity and the responsibility to keep that potential from turning real.

And that to me was a very clinical way of saying, don't just keep your eye in the kit with a trench coat. You might think you can see a school shooter coming, but you're wrong. So take every red flag, every threat seriously. It's because some kids seem to have their shit together, comes from a seemingly good family, doesn't mean they can't be a future

Dylan Kleibold or Eric Harris. And the BAU doesn't just study and consult crimes in the US, team professionals at the FBI Academy, teach the tenants of behavioral science around the world. These people are special agents with advanced degrees in psychology, criminology, sociology, and more. As more info becomes available to consult

as they consult with more experts from around the world, the techniques of the BAU evolve. Sadly, despite evolving a lot the last few decades, profilers still have a hell of a time, protecting who's burying bodies in the woods. Psychologist Harvey Schlossberg, former director of psychological services for the New York police department,

says profilers still really as much of an art as it is a science. Okay, now that we know a little bit about the BAU, formally the BSU, let's take a look at how the field of behavioral science and the tool of profiling originated. The first defender profile was assembled by Scotland Yard detectives on the personality of Jack the Ripper, serial killer who murdered a series of prostitutes in the 1880s. We suck Jack back on May 11th, 2018. Modern criminal profiling began in the US with a hunt for a criminal nickname, the Mad Bomber,

who planted dozens of bombs in a variety of locations in New York City, a vated capture for 16 years in the 40s and 50s. In 1956, no closer to capturing him than they'd been 16 years prior, Feta Police Offic officers consulted psychiatrist James Brussels, and Brussels provided them with an incredibly detailed picture of the man who's planning these bombs. Most specifically, that he was an unmarried man who wore a double-breasted suit,

even said that the suit would be buttoned up when the police caught him. And when police eventually did arrest the bomber, George Matesky at his apartment on January 21, 1957, he was indeed single. And wearing a buttoned up double-breasted suit, could it have been a lucky guess and formed by fashion at the time? Yes. Were a bunch of Brussels other predictions wrong?

Yes. But because Matesky was caught, profiling took root as a legitimate investigative tool. The media dubbed Russell the Sherlock Holmes of the couch. Throughout the rest of the 50s, 60s, early 70s, the teaching of investigative tools to police officers was disorganized and often contradictory a lot of the times. If behavioral science was going to be exactly that, a science, there needed to be some standardization. The two men who were most instrumental in developing the theories and techniques used by the BAU today were two dudes. briefly mentioned earlier FBI supervisory special agents John E Douglas and Robert

wrestler. I was learned about them and about many of the techniques they developed that are still used today and go over some darkly fascinating interviews. My favorite part of this suck that they conducted with some of America's most notorious serial killers in today's time suck timeline. Shrap on those boots soldier, we're marching down a time suck timeline. Robert Ressler was born on February 21, 1937 in Chicago, Illinois. When a windy city murder known as the lipstick killer, William Herons began killing in 1946.

Young Robert followed the coverage of the crimes in the local newspaper very intensely. It wasn't, you know, it frightened. He was fascinated. Only nine years old. He already knew he wanted to catch killers like William. After graduating high school, he attended two years at a local community college before joining the army, where he was stationed in Okinawa, ever serving for two years. He then attended the criminology program at Michigan State University. He started graduate work before enlisting in the army again, this time becoming a provost marshal in a Shafenberg, Germany. Sorry, I paused on that work, so I was like, oh, and I think I nailed it.

I think I nailed it. His future FBI teammate, John Douglas, was born in Brooklyn, New York, June 18, 1945, like wrestler. He would also join the Army spending four years in the US Air Force from 1966, 1970. After that, he got a bachelor's degree in sociology. Master's in education psychology from the University of Wisconsin-Mawaki and a PhD in comparing techniques for teaching police officers, how to classify a homicide for Nova Southeast or an university in Davie, Florida.

That's a very specific PhD. I'm sorry. What was your PhD in comparing techniques for teaching police officers had a classified homicide, comparing techniques for what? Never mind. I got a PhD and never mind. I got another PhD. Just forget about it. If you've seen mine hunter, very popular show, the character of Holden Ford based heavily on John Douglas. John wrote the book to show is based on mine hunter inside the FBI's elite serial crime

unit. Mine hunter special agent Bill Tinch is based on agent Robert wrestler. FBI profilers Jason Gideon and David Rossi from Criminal Minds also based on Douglas. Also Douglas provided analysis in the John Bene Ramsey case we covered on time suck and concluded that neither her father John nor her mother Patsy nor their son Burke were responsible for the death of John Boney. He thinks no one in the family did it. 1970 Robert Restor joined the FBI at the age of 33 that same year John Douglas also joined the FBI.

We're going to initially as a field sniper on the FBI SWAT team before transitioning to a hostage negotiator. 1972, as mentioned earlier, the FBI established the behavioral science unit. Here we go! Now we're cooking! In Quantico, you know, Virginia, at the FBI Academy, instructors Patrick Mulani and Howard Teaton, they formed the unit, originally made a 10 agents in response to a rising wave in sexual assault and homicide during the early 70s. Agent Tiden was a, and also in the 60s, right? Agent Tiden was a criminologist. Agent Milani had a master's in psychology by 1976.

Agents wrestler and Douglas also members of the BSU because there were so many active serial killers in the late 60s, 70s and 80s, solving those crimes became suddenly very important, more important than ever, and since some of these serial killers had been caught, there were more and more of them in prison, and they could be interviewed. The FBI realizes these killers might hold secrets to prevent future crimes. So from 1976 to 1979, John Douglas and Robert Ressar and other FBI agents interviewed 36 serial killers. Douglas and Ressar will interview more after those years. Robert Rester will coin the term serial killer during his early work with the BSU. I thought that was some cool trivia. He's the guy who came up with serial killer.

1972, the BSU was asked to get involved with the Ted Bundy case after Bundy escaped from a courthouse in Aspen, Colorado, and he escaped from that courthouse library while preparing for his upcoming murder trial. Probably need to re-suck Bundy. Only devoted 43 minutes to that psychopath back in 2016, not enough suck for Bundy. Since investigators had already captured Bundy once before, the BST was less concerned with developing his profile,

more concerned with analyzing Bundy's history of victims to warn possible future victims. So they warned young, pretty girls with dark hair, parted down the middle, watched out for a dude who looked exactly like Ted Bundy. The hunt for Bundy ended up in advancing the, or ended up advancing the FBI's ability to track a killer down from state to state because Bundy hadn't just killed in one state. Local authorities were slow to put together a full picture of his national crimes.

To tackle this problem in the future, the BAU started a national database based on Motis operandiandi personality and victim type vi cap the violent criminal apprehension program. It would become operational in 1985. Years later after interviewing Bundy, wrestler said that Bundy was quote, in animal. Wrestling reported he still felt uncomfortable years later about the conversations he had with Bundy, never feeling he was able to understand Bundy. In fact, felt concerned Bundy understood more about him than the other way around.

Bundy offered to come to the FBI and teach classes about his crimes and motives and offer the FBI refused because, you know, they were smart not to trust Bundy. According to Robert Restard, Ted Bundy was a master of his game. And I wish I could have found excerpts of the BSU's interviews with Bundy. We looked and looked, couldn't find specifically those excerpts. Did find more details on our next piece of shit. And former SUCK subject of episode 68, Murder Clown, John Wayne Gacy. Between 1972 and 1978, Gacy lured 33 young men to his house in Chicago, where he murdered

them, buried many of their bodies in his crawl space. At the time of his arrest, Gacy was the most prolific American serial killer in history, and weird coincidence from the exact same neighborhood as the man who would coin the term serial killer agent Robert Ressler. In fact, Ressler claims that the two were in the Boy Scouts together. How weird is that? They're in the Boy Scouts together. Casey was an important case for the BSU because he was the first organized serial killer

that Ressler interviewed and the two had frank and very graphic discussions about his crimes and the gacy interviews led to wrestler and Douglas developing their organized disorganized dichotomy serial killer theory. They found it the main way that serial killers differed from one another was they were either organized, you know, the case houses carefully selected their victims, cling to evidence after the murder or they were unorganized. Right? Victims were selected random. The killer usually left blood or fingerprints behind.

Organized killers they found tended to be older, you know, have stable jobs, be active in their communities, disorganized, unorganized killers, usually mentally ill or under the influence of drugs. Gacy and Bundy as well as Dennis Raider, aka the BTA, aka theTK killer, fuf. And realize those acronyms back to back, we're gonna be trouble. Classic examples of organized killers. And BTK also a sub subject, episode 63.

They planned their murders in advance, they kept control throughout their kills, they took care to hide their bodies. Through Gacy's interview, a wrestler found that organized killers also often had something they did again and again during the crimes. Part of their modus operandi, for Gacy, it was the old handcuff trick. I'll never forget about that.

I have to learn it about it in that suck. He asked boys if he could show them how to get out of a pair of handcuffs, and you'd use this quote unquote trick to get boys to allow him to put handcuffs on them that they could not get out of. And then if you remember from that suck, he unleashed hell upon them. Disorganized killers in their hand were people like Ed Geen, subject of bonus suck 17, the killer who got to start digging up the corpses of women who resembled his mom for he graduated to murdering women that resembled mommy. The fact that Geen's house was falling apart, he could

barely hold a job. Evidence of his murderous was ball over his home. Weird evidence, nipple belt, anyone. This made him a classic disorganized killer. I mean, dude, pranced around the farm under the moonlight, wearing a fucking human skin suit. If you recall, Gene practically told people he killed when they asked him. People just didn't believe him. Remember that? Locals asked Ed if he, this is before his arrest, obviously. If he knew where Mary Hogan, a local tavern owner, was a woman that did murder.

And he said, she's at the farm right now. I went and get her my pickup and took her home. And they thought he was kidding, and he wasn't kidding. He did do that. Back to Gacy. Check out what Rester said about Gacy when he interviewed him. Or when interviewed about, sorry, spending time about interviewing Gacy, while on death row by the LA Times.

He said, Gacy was an overweight, middle-sized, intelligent, and articulate man who attempted to show his power by ordering lunch. Rester said he, by snapping his fingers, he's summoned to guard and had a conversation with him as if the guard were a waiter in a fancy restaurant. Rester added Gacy hoped that we were impressed by his ability to command thing that things happen even while he was on death row. So that clown, that literal clown, got so badly wanted to be the big shot. He craved that power. I would ask about his victims, Gacy told wrestler that they were worthless little queers and punks.

Wrestling challenged him on that statement asking, aren't you homosexual too? And Gacy responded that his victims were young runaways while he was a respected and successful businessman. And then Gacy explained that he was a respected and successful businessman. Then Gacy explained that he was too busy at work to date and romance women following his divorce, so you know, he just settled for quick sex with transient young men that he then had to kill. I think I have fucked up Gacy's mind is here.

He doesn't tell Rester, I know what he did was wrong. I'm sorry. If I could take it all back, you know, I would. It's terrible what I do. They didn't deserve it. I'm sick. I should have been strong enough to seek help much earlier. No, even in prison, years after the murders,

where he's had thousands and thousands of hours to do self-reflection, he's still talking. Like, he didn't do anything wrong. Ah, I killed him. So what? What? Not like there were real people? Come on, or transient homos.

Which wasn't even true, if you recall, from that suck what was I supposed to do between all my clowns and puggle and patches of local hospitals No, do you volunteer children's hospital? I did between all my volunteer work with the JC's and run-of-round business PDM contractors giving kids a lot of work You know if you know that good I didn't have time to date women So I did with any reasonably red blood of American man would do. I would invite teenage boys over to my home and pick them up at the bus stop or you know what not and I would trick them into putting on handcuffs and then I would sort of mise them and strangle them and I'd bear them in the crawl space. What was I supposed to do? Just jerk off and fall asleep like some schmuck? Before he was executed, Gacy painted wrestler a painting of himself dressed like a clown.

Such a fucking psychopath. And on the back it said, Dear Bob Ressler, you cannot hope to enjoy the harvest without first laboring in the fields. Best wishes and good luck. Sincerely, John Wayne Gacy, June, 1988. Ressler asked what it meant and Gacy replied, well, Mr. Ressler, you're the criminal profiler, you're the FBI, you figured out. Fucking most people's minds until the very end.

Enjoy the harvest. That what he thought he was doing back in, you know, when he's killing those 33 young men and boys harvesting Gacy invited a wrestler to come to his execution and the profiler refused What a weird invite. Uh, would you like to come to my execution? I mean, I'm gonna be executed executed next week You're being great if you could stop by Uh, on remorseful to the very end Gacy's final words if you recall from that suck I'm gonna be killed by lethal injection on May 10th, 1994, or Kiss My Ass. I mean, I said this before, for a colossal piece of shit, those are some pretty sweet

final words. Oh, I'm actually going to kill you. Pfft. Kiss My Ass. Uh, another one of the most, uh, if you'd famous profile shit faces we've covered over the years, uh, suck a so soda, one, two, three, Ed Kemper. Mother, do not get my zapples, riled, do not,

do not make me get my stick. For a hideous refresher, Ed Kemper murdered 10 people, regularly engaged in necrophilia. It was a monster, shot his grandparents, fucked his mom's neck, I forgot her head off, found guilty of all this horrible stuff. November 8th, 1973, actually requested the death penalty,

given eight consecutive life sentences instead, currently incarcerated in California. Agents John Douglas, Robert Rester, both interviewed Kemper multiple times over the years. And this is what Douglas had to say about first meeting Kemper, the first thing that struck me when they brought me in was how huge this guy was.

I had known that he was tall, and had been considered a social outcast in school in the neighborhood because of his size, but up close, he was enormous. He could easily have broken any of us in two. He had longish dark hair and a full mustache, worn open work shirt and a white t-shirt that probably displayed a massive gut. It was also apparent before long that Kemper was a bright guy. Prison records listed as IQ at 145, and at And at times during the many hours we spent with Bob,

Robert Ressler, yeah, sorry, sorry. At times during the many hours we spent with him, Bob, Robert Ressler and I, worried he was a lot brighter than we were. He had a long time to sit and think about his life and crimes and once he understood that we had carefully researched his files, it would know if he was bullshitting us, he opened up and talked about himself for hours. His attitude was neither cocky and arrogant nor remorseful and contrite.

Rather he was cool and soft-spoken, analytical and somewhat removed. In fact, as the interview went on, it was often difficult to break in and ask a question. The only time he got weepy was in recalling his treatment at the hands of his mother, true narcissist. It feels no real emotion, no sadness when talking about, you know, picking up hitchhiking co-eds who'd never done a damn thing to him and stab it and strangle him in the woods. A Douglas said, we ended up doing several lengthy interviews with Campro over the years, each one informative, each one harrowing in its detail.

Here was a man who had coldly butchered and tell Jean-Yield women in the prime of their lives, yet I would be less than honest if I didn't admit that I liked it. He was friendly, open, sensitive, and had a good sense of humor. Mother, they think I'm funny. If only you would have laughed more of my jokes, mother, none of this would have happened. We wouldn't have to put your cat hair in a stick. He says, uh, as much as you can say such a thing in this setting, I enjoyed being around him. I don't want to walk it on the streets and his most lucid moments needed as he.

But my personal feelings about him, then, which I still hold, do point up an important consideration for anyone dealing with repeat violent offenders. Many of these guys are quite charming, highly articulate and glib. I mean, that is a good message there. Just because someone's charming, you know, it seems like they have their shit together, maybe good natured fun doesn't mean they won't put your body in a trunk. So that's, that's a fun reassuring message. Douglass also says, quite clearly, sometimes if killers are much more likely to repeat

their crimes and others, for the violence sexually-based serial killers, I find myself agreeing with Dr. Park Dietz that it's hard to imagine any circumstance under which they should be released to the public again. Ed Kemper, who's a lot brighter and has a lot more on the way of personal insights and most of the other killers I've talked to, acknowledges candidly that he should not be let out. Ah, exactly. It should not be let out.

Unreal to me that some countries still have maximum sentencing loss. When someone kills like Kemper, there's no rehabilitation. There's no reason to ever let him out again. Ressler had a much more exciting interview than this one with Kemper. At the end of one of his interviews with Kemper, when he went in solo, Ressler pressed the button that would notify the guard to come get him,

but then no one came. 15 minutes later, he pressed it again. Still no guard. Kemper said, and this was recorded on the interview tape, relax, they're changing shifts, feeding the guys in the care areas, might be 15, 20 minutes before they come and get you. And then Kemper said, if I went ape shit in here,

you'd be in a lot of trouble. I could screw your head off and place it on the table to greet the guard. Rusted was nervous. Yeah, of course he was. This was me saying this, I'm comic or a podcaster, likes to throw out dark humor for shock value sometimes,

a six foot nine, 300 pound serial killer who had taken people's heads off was saying this to him, how terrified would you be? Camper could easily overpowered and killed him. And Ruster thought there was a real possibility he was gonna do that. He was gonna die in that interview room,

try to keep his cool. He warned Camper that he would get in big trouble for killing an agent, Camper scoffed, who was already serving eight life terms. He teased. What would they do cut off my TV privileges? Camper's a piece of shit, but he's pretty funny. Come on dude. Do you think you're threatened? There's some of my fucking grandparents come among tongue out and push in the garbage disposal Killin you wouldn't even be in the top 10 of the worst should have ever done Restor felt that only his techniques is a psychological profile or stood between him and certain

death over the next 30 minutes, 30 more minutes. Before a guard finally shows up, what kind of shit show is going on in this prison? He tried to keep the highly intelligent camper off balance. At one point, camper acknowledges that if he killed Rester, he would have to spend some time in the hole. But then he added, not only be small price to pay, for the prison prestige of often an FBI agent. How much sweat do you think trickled down wrestlers ass crack?

And Camper said that, maybe like a teaspoon, maybe tablespoon. Rester decided to try and bluff him and asked, you don't seriously think I'd come in here without some sort of way to defend myself to you. But Camper knew better. He said, don't let anybody bring guns in here. Rester doubled down. He said, I have special privileges to bring in a weapon. Camper was like, nah. he looks at him over and said,

well, what do you got? Poison pen. Gets in another table, it's put in a flop sweat, just poured down his ass crack. 10 minutes later, the guards finally show up, escort Camper away. As Camper is walking out,

he puts one of his enormous hands on restor shoulder, smiles at him and says, you know I just kiddin', don't you? Again, murdering pieces pieces shape, but pretty funny This is my favorite interview they did Maybe weird term to use but most interesting in the summer of 1974 Restler and Douglas interviewed in elderly Albert Fish Cannibal sexual torture serial killer the Brooklyn vampire who once boasted of killing over a hundred people

There's a bit from the transcript of that interview Douglas Albert what would you say was your primary motivation for your killings? What drove you to murder? Fish, showbiz, a tycoon in Hollywood. Restor, Albert, who are they? Fish, big shots in hubbubbs, movie muggles, and producers putting back hats on she was

on a Tantletown big strength, showbiz. Douglass, and what are these so-called big shots and hubbubs do out in Hollywood, Albert? Albert? Why'd they drink apples out of my boy? They make pipe and hot peanut butter and get a laptop straight off that back door, spigot! Wrestler?

Albert, what are you referring to when you speak of peanut butter? Albert, are you daft? From kind of wet blanket? Everybody drinks soda, even on a Mrs. Grundy and enjoys a little peanut butter. Albert, are you daft? From kind of wet blanket? Everybody drinks soda. Even a Mrs. Grundy enjoys a little peanut butter. And now for this phone is below this. Douglas, uh, uh, uh, Albert,

Will you know it's the best when the poop hits? You just, that's how I come. Shoot my seed when your rest starts to bleed that's how I come that's how I come uh and then the investigators just kind of walked out of the room of course that never happened a loudspeaker was executed in 1936 I just thought that'd be fun for some long time suckers onto a real interview now well that not see even, maybe more fucked up to what I just made up.

A killer who hasn't gotten the time suck treatment yet, though he's insane reasons for killing in the gruesome things he did with victims' bodies, certainly put him up there, some of time sucks worst. Richard Chase, he'll dick chase, the vampire of Sacramento. Have you heard of this guy? Born on May 23rd, 1950, Sacramento, California, by age 10 exhibited all three characteristics of the now considered archaic, but still interesting,

McDonald's Triad, bed wedding, arson, cruelty to animals. As you grew older, Chase developed severe hyperconjure, often complained that his heart would occasionally stop eating, or that someone had stolen his pulmonary artery. As kids are want to do, he'd hold oranges on his head, believing that vitamin C would be absorbed into his brain via diffusion. All pretty normal so far, J.K. Chase also believed there's cranial bones had become a separating, we're moving around. So he shoved his head, so he shaved his head,

so he could monitor what was going on under his scalp so he could keep an eye on his bones moving around. So clearly he had a lot of shit going on I guess and he's gonna be classified as a disorganized serial killer After leaving his mom's house because he believes he was attempting to poison him as he grew older He rented an apartment with friends when he was alone in the apartment He began to capture kill and disembowel various animals and then would devour them raw Yeah

Sometimes he would mix the raw organs with Yeah, sometimes he would mix the raw organs with Self ridiculous with Coca-Cola in a blender and then drink it showbiz Chase believed that by ingesting the creatures he was preventing his heart from shrinking All right, okay a little bit of logic there again Chase spent a brief brief amount of time in a psychiatric ward 1973. Of course he did Then he was released 1976. He was involuntarily committed to a mental institution after he wound up in the hospital for injecting rabbit's blood into his veins. I picture the head of the hospital psychiatric ward saying, uh, here we go.

If I had a nickel, for every time someone was admitted to my psychiatric unit for injecting rabbit blood in their veins, I would have one fucking nickel. What the hell is the hospital chase broke the next of two birds he caught to the window, drank their blood. Also extracted blood from therapy dogs with stolen syringes. My God, dude needed some blood. Give him some bags of blood for God's sake so we can leave the therapy dogs alone.

Chase was promptly diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. Weird, he seemed so stable. After undergoing a battery of treatments involving psychotropic drugs, Chase was deemed no longer a danger to society. Later 1976, he was released into his mother's custody, hoping with some kind of warning, right? Keep an eye on him. Keep an eye on him. Don't let him get near a syringe. Keep an eye on your blood. Check your blood levels when you wake up. Make sure it wasn't siphoning it overnight. Rumay, it's complained that Chase was constantly high on marijuana or LSD or drunk when he got

out. And yes, he was released from his mother's custody. And when he was released in tour custody, she went and found him in a apartment with roommates. She didn't want him living with her. Not sure Chase had the right mind for LSD. It was like a bad choice for him. December 29, 1977, Chase killed a man in a drive by shooting.

The victim, Ambrose Griffin, 51, was an engineer, father, two, told a random killing. Two weeks later, he attempts to home invasion, but since the doors were locked, he leaves. He tried this a few more times. Later, he would tell police that unlocked doors meant, you know, he was supposed to go in, you know, if, you know, because he's like a vampire.

They're locked, yeah, you don't go in, as they're unlocked, well then they welcome you to their home. Did I mention he was batched crazy? Once he was caught by a couple as he went through their belongings, turned out he had pissed on and taken a shit on their baby's bed, which makes sense. You know, you can't break into somebody's house

and not take a shit on the baby's bed. January 23rd, 1978, he breaks into a house, shoots Teresa Wallen three months pregnant at the time, shoots her three times, then it has sex with her corpse while stabbing her with a butcher knife, then removes multiple organs, then cuts off one of her nipples and drinks her blood. Still not done.

Then stuff, dogs shit down her throat before leaving. What the fuck? How have we not done a show by this guy yet? This guy is beyond a monster. January 27th, just four days later, he enters the home with 38-year-old Evelyn Maroth and counters her friend, Danny Meredith, when we shoot with his 22 handgun,

then takes Meredith's wallet and car keys, then shoots Maroth killing her, then kills her six-year-old son, Jason, and her 22-month-old old nephew David Ferreira. Then he has sex with Evelyn's corpse, then he eats some of her body, then someone knocks on the door, it stardols him, hops in Danny Meredith's car, he takes young David Ferreira's body with him. In January of 78, Agent wrestler, Robert Rester gets a call from the Sacramento Police

Department, and it gets brought up to speed all the shit. With the vampire case, for the first time, agent wrestler of the BSU is now an active part of a serial killer investigation. Like an ongoing investigation. Restor's immediate profile predicts the following. One, the killer will be a single white male. Two, he will be between 25 and 27. Three, he's gonna be thin, gonna look malnourished.

Four, his home is gonna be dirty and unkempt. There's gonna be evidence of the murder inside the house. Five, he's gonna have a history of mental illness, maybe using drugs. Six, a loner who spends most of his time at home is unemployed, might be on disability, probably suffering from paranoid psychosis. Ressler gives his official profile to the Sacramento PD,

and he also determines that the killer is gonna live within one or two, a one or two mile radius of where Danny Meredith his car was abandoned. And wrestler is right about almost all of this, uh, his profile, however, did not help catch Richard Chase and actually it'll run in with an old high school classmate did. Shortly after the Marathouse murders, the police get a phone call from woman who'd ran into someone she's go to high school with. A 30 year old man named Richard Chase.

The woman is deeply disturbed by the encounter with her former classmate, Chase looked malnourished, thin, disheveled, he had a yellow crust around his mouth, wearing a sweatshirt covered in blood. That's not a good look. Let's look at what the bit too much rabid blood running around his veins. Look at what guy's been shitting in too many baby bits. Chase tries to get into her car,

she's able to lock him out, drive away, calls the police as soon as she gets home. And when police look into the car, they realize that Chase lived less than a block from where Danny Meredith's car had been abandoned less than five miles from two of the crime scenes. Police searched Chase's apartment

and accurate to restless prediction. They find that the walls floor ceiling refrigerator just covered with blood, right? Chase's eating and drinking utensilsils soaked in victim's blood. And no, he was not so living with roommates at the time. That would be too fucked up. Hey man, I think we should call the police on Chase. I wish we could at least have landlord.

I'm sick of all the blood, you know, sick of all the blood, sick of all the shit, sick of all the shit and blood. Chase arrested, Rester gets to interview him quickly becomes clear that Chase is severely mentally ill. He mostly talks to agent Rester about UFOs and Nazi mind control. This guy's over the top. And then before he goes to trial for six murders, Chase came in suicide the day after Christmas 1980 by overdose, he's not any depressants. Whatever happened to 22 month old David Ferrara, so sad. Chase drove his body back to his apartment where he cut into David's neck, drank his blood, ate some of his organs, then left what was left of his body

at a nearby church. So that was fun, for whoever had to find that poor body, which are they didn't get reoccurring nightmares, or recurring nightmares. Richard Chase, he didn't even seem real to me. He's like a monster from a horror movie. Three more quick hits on Derbex that the FBI's BSU was involved in with some way.

And then we'll be on to a little more info before we close out the show. Another killer that we haven't covered here yet on TimeSug committed a series of murders in Atlanta, aptly nicknamed the Atlanta Child Murderer. Tell me about Wayne Williams. Starting in 1979, the bodies of young African-American children, mostly boys are found discarded

throughout the city of Atlanta All of them have been strangled going from 1979 till May of 1981 at least 28 kids adolescents adults, you know, kill this period At first, the police believe that since the victims are all black children, you know, or mostly children You know, all African-American the killings are racially motivated. They think the perpetrator might be a member of the local chapter, the KKK. They don't believe at first that the killings of the work of a serial killer, why not? At the time, it was believed that serial killers,

basically were only white men who prayed on young boys or girls, not on a mix of genders and ages. The FBI is called, BSU profiler, John Douglas has brought the fucking, yeah, yeah. John goes to Atlanta in 1991, he writes his profile. His profile initially perceived as being controversial. Douglass does not believe their murders or hate crimes because the bodies are being dumped in areas that were predominantly or exclusively

African American. He, he suggests that the killer is extremely comfortable being in a predominantly black neighborhood. And that's not something that a clan member would probably feel. He doesn't think a clan member would be comfortable enough to dump a body in one of those neighborhoods. He also feels like if the killer is white, he'd have been, you know, probably seen, noticed, and someone would have mentioned someone not being from the neighborhood hanging around acting suspicious. Douglas additionally predicts that the killer is going to dump the next body in water to conceal evidence based on his profile. Atlanta police, stay out the Chattahoochi river. Wait, I don't know, I don't know, Chattah, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey stops the station wagon by the mile further down the road. The driver's 23 year old Wayne Bertram Williams, local music promoter and freelance photographer.

Investigation Williams reveals the exact same carpet fibers found both on him and several victims. Also, they'll find a nylon cord in his possession that matches marks on some of the victims next. Investigators quickly determine, you know, how Williams found his victims. He was known to hand out flyers and predominantly black neighborhoods calling for young people ages 11 to 21 to audition for his new singing group called Jim Knight. And that's how he got him. Williams trial began on January 6, 1982, and on February 27, convicted for the murders of two adults,

even though he was suspected of at least 23 other murders, when was he children not convicted for those. He pleaded innocent, never confessed to the additional murders. I don't think they really pursued because he's already going to spend the rest of his life in prison. Now at the age of 62, he maintains his innocence, even though he's been pretty thoroughly sucked on by some other podcasts, I have to give Wayne Williams a time suck treatment someday. Two more dirt bags.

Next up, another killer we have not discussed yet in the suck first, Joseph Paul Franklin. Franklin was a drifter who gave FBI profilers a lot of trouble in the days before murder details were shared across state lines. After reading Adolf Hitler's mind comp, Franklin decided to start a race war as a stable person does. So like Richard Chase, he's obviously got a shit together. In July of 1977, he starts fire bombing synagogues. In October that year, he graduates to murder over the next two years. Franklin Roams the East Coast killing whoever he thinks is inferior to him whenever he thinks

he can get away with it. He often uses a sniper rifle, picking off victims from a distance. Victims include Hustle magazine publisher Larry Flynn to he paralyzes on March 6, 1978. And then he also shoots a civil rights leader, Vernon Jordan on May 29, 1980. The FBI believed that some of the hate crimes Franklin is leaving in his wake or connected to one perpetrator, but they don't have any inkling.

Franklin is behind them. They don't know the true extent of his crimes either. September of 1980, a police officer in Kentucky notices a gun in the back of Franklin's car after he gets pulled over. The officer calls in a record check on franklin finds out he has an outstanding warrant so franklin's arrested

but then shortly after being brought into police station he manages to escape then when his impound and car is searched evidence is found that connects him to a number of shooting throughout the each of us but without any idea for franklin's going is impossible to track him down a warrant potential victims so who does the f call the BSU? They realize that a drifter has their own profile characteristics, often to finance their drifting, they typically donate blood or rob banks.

I really buy donate, they sell. They sell their plasma. So the BSU releases a memo to blood banks around the East Coast informing them to keep an eye out for someone matching Franklin's description. And then boom, a few weeks later, blood bank operator in Florida, contacts the FBI, saying that a man matching Franklin's description came into donate blood. From there, they traced him to Lakeland, Florida. He's arrested on October 28th, 1980. Got to sell him blood, motherfucker. If only he could have teamed up with Richard Chase,

right? Chase could have bankrolled him. Chase gets the blood, frankly, gets his sniper money. Experts put the number of Franklin's victims at least 15 people, and he's executed on November Chase, right? Chase could have bankrolled him. Chase gets the blood, frankly, gets the sniper money. Experts put the number of Franklin's victims at least 15 people and he's executed on November 20th, 2013, for the first murder he committed. Big points for BSU profiling here. Right, would the police have thought to send an alert to blood banks looking for this guy based on the profile

of the average drifter? I doubt it. I sure as hell would have. It's pretty impressive. One last creep we've covered before the cannibal of Milwaukee, Jeffrey Dahmer. January 30th, 1992, Jeffrey Dahmer's trial begins. He's indicted on 15 murder charges during Dahmer's trial, Dahmer's defense lawyers asked agent wrestler to testify that Dahmer killed during psychotic episodes. Dahmer interested wrestler

because he didn't fit straightforwardly into the category of either the organized or the disorganized killer. Dahmer acted like an organized serial killer most of the time, made efforts to hide what he was doing, but also lost total control while he was committing his murders. An element wrestler and Douglas had associated only with disorganized serial killers. Wrestling wrestler thought that before Dahmer, that the killers could be either organized or disorganized, but not both. And Rester found Dominator Fastating.

He was much more open about his experiences and motivations and most other serial killers he'd interviewed. Gacy Bundy and Camper, for example, I'll try to play games with Rester. Dahmer, very frank and open. And it also seemed like he really wanted to prevent another serial killer like himself from ever being out there running loose again.

Rester was able to get Dahmer to open up, really talked to him parly by not appearing to judge him for any of the heinous shit that he was talking about. Here's a bit from a transcript of one of their interviews, Rester. Now he's unconscious or he's dead and you have him and you know he's not going anywhere and that was a turn on Dahmer.

Right, so later that night I take the body to the crawl space. I'm down there and I can't sleep that night. So I go back up to the house. The next day, I have to figure out a way to dispose of the evidence by a hunt knife, go back to the next night, slit the belly open and masturbate again. Rest there.

So you were aroused at just the physique, Dahmer, the internal organs. Rest there. The internal organs, the active evisceration. You were roused by cutting open to the body? Dahmer. Yeah. Then I cut the arm off, cut each piece, bag each piece, triple bagged in large plastic trash bags with them in the back of the car.

I'm driving to the top. I'm driving to drop the evidence off at a ravine 10 miles from my house, did that at three o'clock at the morning, halfway there. I'm in a deserted country road and I get pulled over by the police for driving left of center. Guy calls it backup squad, tool in there. You do the drunk test. I passed that.

It's a flashlight on the back seat. Excuse me, shine the flashlight on the back seat. See the bags? Asking what it is. I tell them it's garbage. Heading to gun around to drop it it off at the And they believe it, even though there's a smell. So he gave me a ticket for driving left to center and I go back home.

Bessler, get the fuck out of here! It's fucking crazy! No. Police, dude, what is the real interview? How crazy was Dahmer also? I like what he talks about not being able to get very good sleep, laying in the crawl space, next to a dead body.

Why would you ever think that you would get good sleep in that situation? Damn, I feel good. Oh, man. It's like a baby last night. How about you, Jeff? I feel fantastic. It's like a dude sleeping in the crawl space next to the body. Some guy killed and jerked off on. Sorry. What was that? Agent Douglas still around today. John Douglas 75 joins and will earn retirement. Robert Ressler retired from the FBI 1990 pass in 2013 as home in Spotsylvania County, Virginia, 76 years old. They both ended up writing a variety of books about their experiences. Ressler's most famous book, Whoever fights monsters by 20 years tracking serial killers for the FBI has been used to inform many movies and television shows. And Douglas's book again, Mind Hunter inside the FBI's Elite serial crime unit recently adapted into the Netflix series Mind Hunter produced by David Fincher and Charlize Theron among others.

And that will take us out of today's time suck timeline. Good job, soldier. You've made it back. Barely. Woo-hooe! A lot of info. A lot of info today. Now that we've went over some of whom, wrestler and Douglas spoke to, before we wrap up, let's go a little more in-depth into their new investigative procedure. Born from many of these conversations, profiling.

From the interviews we've discussed, and even more that would take literally days, if not weeks, to go over, restaurants and nuggets continue to develop new ways of looking at crime scenes and forming profiles of attackers. They figured out that the first part, the type of profile, you know, would involve the antecedent, the time before the murder. What fantasy or plan or both did the murderer have in place before the act? What triggered the murderer to act some days and not others? Think of Ed Kemper, who was often triggered to murder when he received degrading comments from mother.

The second stage, the method and manner of the kill. Type of victim or victims. Did the murderer select? What was the method and manner of murder? Shooting, stabbing, strangulation, something else. Third stage of the crime was the disposal of the body. Did the murder and body disposal take place all at one scene or multiple scenes like we saw in the Atlanta child murder case, analyzing how the bodies were disposed could reveal where the killer was comfortable.

You know what places the killer was likely to go again. It also looked at post-defense behavior was the murder trying to inject himself and in the investigation by reacting to media reports or contacting investigators. Think about the zodiaciac Killer recovered back in bonus sub 12. Despite all of this information being super interesting to true crime officials, not all investigators are big fans of profiling. Their main contention is, okay, this stuff's, yeah, interesting, but like, is it actually helpful? I mean, sometimes, as in the case that we just went over

of Wayne Williams and Joseph Paul Franklin, I mean, the information clearly has helps, but in the majority of cases, profiling doesn't seem to lead to an actual arrest. And just many wonder if funding a unit like the BSU is worth it. Could they reallocate the resources somewhere else, somewhere more effective? Here's some different expert perspectives

on the usefulness or lack thereof of profiling. Mary Eleanor's tool and XFBI profilers says profiling paints a picture of the offender that is a very useful tool to be used in capturing them. But according to criminologists, Dan Kennedy, this kind of profiling rests on a fundamental fallacy. What he calls the homology problem or the idea that there's going to be some correlation between your day-to-day self and what you do at a crime scene.

Well, it may seem like common sense that consistent criminal behavior can reflect a consistent personality or character. More frequently, the connection is too weak to actually use. You know, Domer, Domer wasn't chitchat and do his factory co-workers about sleeping in the crawl space, jerking off on corpses. Gacy wasn't shown his neighbors the handcuffed trick.

And then when they couldn't get the cuffs off, talking about the kids that he invited over and satamized and killed, couldn't get out of those cuffs either. Richard chased the vampire of Sacramento. He wasn't, he actually was. He actually was walking around in a public covered in blood. He was the same dude in regular life that he was when he killed. He was out of his fucking mind completely.

But in most cases, who would kill her is at a crime scene, not who, he is in other parts of his life. This makes total sense. Most of us, not the same in every different aspect of our lives. I mean, do you act in the same way, talk the same way around your childhood friends

like you do with your coworkers or around your parents or grandparents? Would you act like you act when you're out drinking with your friends at 1 a.m. on a Friday night like you would if your babys sat in your five year old nephew at noon, making him a grilled cheese sandwich. I hope not. You know, you kind of act according to the situation.

Most of us can read the room a little bit and compartmentalize a little bit. Another problem with profiling is that the characteristic of most killers just doesn't neatly and perfectly fit into a single typology or subcategory. That's just now how most meat sacks work. And we're typically a little more unique than that. 2018 study by researchers at the University of Liverpool speaks to all this. A review of 100 cases involving stranger rapists showed that similarities between crime scenes had no correlation with similarities between criminals.

The researchers said these findings indicate no evidence for the assumption of homology between crime and scene actions or excuse me, between crime scene actions and background characteristics for the rapist in the sample. I don't know why that word gives me trouble. It's such an easy word, but look at it. I'm like, I don't know. Furthermore, while the serial killers interviewed by wrestler and Douglas were all remarkably similar, mostly white men who killed in their late 20s and had problems with their moms.

According to the serial killer information center, started by Dr. Mike Amatt, a professor of psychology at Radford University, the perspectives and profiles that represent these white men don't represent serial killers in general. His database has identified over 2,600 serial killers, which Amatt defined as someone who kills at least two people in two separate instances with a cooling off period in between kills. And surprisingly, only 12.5% of US serial killers in a mod's database fit what many like myself have long considered the typical serial killer profile to be a white male, right, in his mid to late 20s.

While 92.3% of US serial killers, 94.4% are male, only 52% are white, and only 27% are in their mid-late 20s. Do you know that? I did not know that. To illustrate the racial diversity of serial killers further, from 1990 to 2010, the most recent year of data in the project, just over 52% of US serial killers were white, while 40.3% were black, The numbers don't change much internationally. Worldwide, 56.2% are white, 30% are black. But for some reason, at least in the US, while serial

killers seem, or excuse me, white serial killers seem to get a lot more press coverage. Now, I think because of that, many of us now associate serial killers with white dudes. Here's even more data to illustrate. This is not always the case. If you combine US serial killers across all decades, 52% of serial killers have been white, 40% black. But if you look at just the past three decades, 37% white, 60% black. Very interesting. We would have never guessed that.

Definitely some media bias there. So it seems like in order for profiling to become more and more effective, the next wrestler and Douglas type agents need to study a wider range of killer types and ethnicities. To close things out, let's now briefly go over what Hollywood gets right, what it gets wrong with the FBI, with the BSU type agents, and then we'll get what it takes to become a special agent in the BAU today. Over the years, fictional depictions of FBI agents have undergone a number of transformations, which often shift along with the American public's view of the agency. We've seen the paranormal investigating power couple, Mulder and Scully of the X-Files. I love that show. We've seen

the coffee-loving, super eccentric Dale Cooper of Twin Peaks. I also love that show, but shit gets real weird towards the end of season two. I mean, it's the whole thing's weird, but it kind of goes out the rails for me. There's also the heroic squad featured on Criminal Minds, another show that's fantastic. I actually got to interview Matthew Gray-Goobler once, aka Dr. Spencer Reed, Jim of a meat sack. And then there's the many ominous overbearing suits

that appear in the background of countless police procedural shows. Same scenario plays that over and over again, die hard, die hard, law and order, Dexter, just name a few, stony face or smug federal agents swooping, sees control of a case, shut out local law enforcement who can't stand them. Oh, tropes, why must you be so tropey? Is there any truth to this type of portrayal? According to Jerry Williams, author, retired FBI agents, it's total cliche.

Jerry says a local detective or sheriff is working on something and the FBI comes in and takes over and just treats everybody terribly. That is the worst. When I see that, I just think, doesn't whoever wrote this have any original ideas? I love it. I think the same shit when I watched a lot of stand-up comedy. Like seriously, you're going to talk about that again. I'm talking about a thousand times.

Okay, again, okay. And Jerry's experience because of this trope, FBI agents have to be even nicer, more accommodating, because local law enforcement actually do expect them to be rude because of this shit. They've been watched on TV and films or whole lives, right? Media bombardment affects all of us, shapes our opinions if we let it, how could it not. While it's certainly not a bad thing to be nice,

it also can take the focus off the victims of the crime. Joe Novero, another retired FBI agent, one of the world's leading experts in nonverbal communication and body language, also says this trope is fundamentally untrue. Since when a case falls under FBI jurisdiction, the Bureau typically establishes a task force with local law enforcement agencies, as opposed to just kicking them all the fuck off the case. Additionally, the FBI doesn't always lead an investigation they're involved in. Oftentimes they're just assisting. Naveira recalled working on a kidnapping case in Arizona where the FBI provided over 100 agents just to assist local Sheriff's Department, you know, they're following them.

They're leading. Chris Voss, a former FBI hostage negotiator, CEO of the Black Swan Group, a consulting company that teaches businesses and individuals how to negotiate, says that in his experience, most people simply expect FBI agents to be jerks because of what they've seen on TV, and it's not true at all. And on and on and on. I actually try to find articles about local law enforcement agencies hating working with feds could not.

There's also the idea that FBI agents frequently go head-to-head with serial killers and some dramatic way during investigations like in science of the lambs agent Clarice Starling squaring off with both Hannibal Lecter well Clarice had the lamestop screaming also squaring off with Buffalo Bill. Would you fuck me? I fuck me. It fucked me hard. To be clear that was a Buffalo Bill quote. That's not me just saying something super random and creepy, which I do sometimes do. Criminal minds also perpetuates narrative FBI profilers going ahead to head with serial killers more than half of the crimes they investigate committed by serial killers on that show. While it's all very entertaining to watch, not reflective of reality.

Jerry Williams again, who served as special FBI agent, you know, and investigated, you know, mainly economic crimes. FBI agent, you know, investigated, you know, mainly economic crimes. Note that only a very small percentage of agents ever handle those type cases. The life of the average FBI agent is not one as it turns out to nonstop Hollywood action. Joe Navarro says people have no idea the incredible amount of paperwork the FBI has to do to get anything done. It's a mind-boggling amount of paperwork. Basically nothing happens as quickly also as it does on TV. Forensic science, not magic.

Agent of our whole call is people's misconceptions about what agents actually do, the CSI effect. CSI effect means that people think they know how forensic science works, and it gives them an inaccurate impression of law enforcement and unrealistic expectations about how long it'll actually take to solve a case. So what do FBI agents do in real life, specifically profilers?

And how could you land that job? To join the FBI's BAU Behavioral Analysis Unit as a special agent, you must first serve at least three years as a general special agent, although not required in advanced degree in forensic or behavioral science, as well as experience in violent crime cases, will help your chances of becoming a BAU agent. To join the BAU as a support staff professional,

such as an intelligence research specialist or crime analysis, or crime analyst, you need a minimum of a bachelor's degree plus a notable research background and in some cases law enforcement experience. The FBI requires all staff members to be US citizens as well. BAU officers and scientists should be able to perform the following seven duties, reconstruct a crime

based on the evidence, create a profile of the perpetrator along with distinguishing psychological features and behavioral patterns, partner with other law enforcement agencies and provide investigative support, maintain a current database on violent crimes, terrorist actions and aberrent, and aberrent, ab, uh, fucking fucking and fucked up behavior. Interview criminals and terrorists in order to obtain insights into their motives and actions,

provided insights into serial criminals, which may assist in apprehension. And finally come up with super fun animal based nicknames from off your members stuff like the joy we got Joey Austro's bones was a rusa. That's that over there in the corner. That's Christopher two snail shells. Petanato. We got a Guido big line with medium paws, but like a regular sized tail reachy.

And then we got Mikey, and not exactly like an American gold finch, but some kind of bird looks like a, like a gold finch, but like a little bit big of beak and a little bit less vibrant, well plumage, bionci. You get it. JK of course. Number seven is develops threat assessments about individuals and groups that pose risks to national or public safety. Once you've met those requirements for selection

by the BAU, you also have to run a time 300 meter sprints. You have to do a certain amount of pushups. Then you'll be required to complete 500 hours of new FBI agent or personal training, personal training. And then you have to attend bureau staff development training and annual seminars, a lot of training. For good reason. If you complete your training successfully, you'll be awarded your FBI staff credentials for the BAU. But what if I smoke marijuana or do other drugs? Can I still be an FBI agent?

Good question, me. Anyone who smoke marijuana within the last three years or used any illegal drug within the last 10 years disqualified from becoming an FBI agent, God damn it. A shripped and doomed episodes, kill my dreams. However, you can't apply once this time passes. But isn't being an FBI agent incredibly time consuming?

Why ever have a life outside of work? Can my family know what I do? That's not a good question, me. Agents' deafening work hard contribute to protecting national security and stopping crime, but the Bureau also recognizes that there are men many women have lives

the fact the agency offers a part-time program which allows the agent to work sixteen to thirty two hours a week as track is designed for working parents who want to balance family professional responsibilities and slightly that your friends and family will know the work for the fp i although you may not be able to discuss you know certain classified information but how much money to fp i agents make

excellent final question, me. They make roughly a billion dollars a year. No, as of May 2016, special agents working for the federal government earn a median annual salary of about 82,000. Plus a comprehensive benefits package according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. Okay, so we covered a lot today.

The FBI's evolution from a tiny operation with one lonely technician, special agent Charles, not now, Apple, to the highly trained and well-funded beast that is today. The FBI's done a lot over the years. Some bad stuff to be sure. Don't bug my phone, don't try and destroy my marriage. They've done a whole lot of good. They developed some of the most important crime-solving technology we currently have have like ViCap, which logs info about hundreds of thousands of unsolved cases leading to new arrests, convictions every year. And though it doesn't exist anymore, the legacy of the BSU, both within the FBI and in Hollywood is huge, made famous by traveling FBI instructors Robert Restler, John Douglas.

A lot of what we know about America's most heinous killers, we know because of the type of works spearheaded by the FBI's behavioral science unit. The legacies of wrestler and Douglas, many other FBI profilers since live on in books, film, and TV shows, even if the portrayal is not entirely accurate. Their legacies also live on more importantly in the values and skills that the FBI teaches to new recruits every year. So thank you, BSU, other FBI agents for catching dirtbags like, you know, Ed Camper.

Mother! Time now for today's top five takeaways. Time, shock, top five takeaways. Number one, the behavioral science unit doesn't exist anymore, under that acronym. It has evolved into a number of other units and divisions within the government's law enforcement umbrella. Also behavioral science is disciplined doesn't apply to just one branch of the FBI.

Almost every department in the FBI uses some aspects of behavioral science to best protect the United States. Number two, the FBI has a fuck ton of DNA, hair samples, and at one point had some falafel, sail info, operation, falafel, info, Operation Falafel Awareness. Number three, FBI agent Robert Restor, one of the most important members of the behavioral science unit, one of the guys portrayed in mine hunter,

that's the guy who coined the term serial killer. Number four, one FBI agent infiltrated the Italian mafia for 26 years. Imagine how mad you would be. If you found out your friend in 26 years was actually your enemy. Ricky DeRocco and pesquitelli can't believe Donnie Brasco, Tharned Man, he was a fad. Donnie, Lion Bear, Dakota Brasco, Donnie, Sneaky Woodpecker Brasco. Donnie, club sandwich was set up at the hotel, sell Brasco. Who the, who the thunk it?

And number five new info. Incredibly the FBI didn't switch from paper files to digital until 2012. Still sitting in a cubicle behind a stack of files in 2011. That's what the real agent Starlings were doing. To be fair, the FBI was originally intending to upgrade much earlier, three years earlier, to be more precise, however, computer coding issues just put them behind schedule, and over budget. Time, suck, tough, five, take away. schedule, an over budget.

The FBI's behavioral science unit has been sucked. I learned so much. I hope you did, you did too. Hope that was a, uh, okay sucka-saud, okay episode. Thank you, Spaces, for picking it. Uh, was a fun way to revisit some past creeps. Uh, thank you again to the time sucked team. Queen of, uh, Queen of bad magic, Lindsey Cummins, Reverend Dr. Paisley, Biddelix, her Logan and Kate Keith. Uh, thanks to the Scri team Queen of bad magic Lindsey Cummins Reverend doctor Paisley

Biddelix her Logan and Kate Keith thanks to the script keeper Zach Flannery for producing again actually well Joe and Zach both help produce this episode thanks to Sophie Evans for helping with the research on this one as well thanks to Liz Hernandez for all seeing eyes running the cold to the curious Facebook page, thanks everyone over at Discord as well. And again, best of luck to everyone using compete with our new trivia game in the Time Suck app. Excited to announce that that winner if you check socials, we'll be announcing that the day after this episode comes out.

Next week on Time Suck, we're going to look into perhaps one of the most successful and beloved Renaissance men of the 20th century. Name was Walt Disney. And as an entrepreneur and artist, he created a media empire through innovation, imagination, and what could certainly be called a, you know, true business sense. Walt Disney was a man who pushed technology in all his endeavors. He was a movie and TV producer, a pioneering cartoonist. The mind behind amusement parks like Disneyland and Disney World.

The technology he and his team created over the years would revolutionize family entertainment and his company still on the cutting edge of entertainment today. His creations would capture the hearts of millions of children and adults alike for decades before his death in 1966. Man, I can't believe it's been a long time ago. His company would also go on to become one of the largest most profitable corporations in the world.

The co-founder of the House of Mouse, not just a luminary head of his time, also made some very strange choices and surrounded by some you know, some not-so-flattering truths, rumors and conspiracies. These include claims of racism and sexism as well as having connections with the Nazis in the 1930s, also helped Uncle Sam make war propaganda films, was an informant for the FBI as we learned today, and helped fan the flames of the Redscare in the 1940s. And of course, there was the rumor that he was cryogenically frozen and buried under the pirates of the Caribbean ride,

Disneyland after his death. And there's even crazy conspiracies, or any of them true. Join us next week for a look into the life and creations of Walt Disney and the strange stories that surround his life and legacy. And now we move on to a very special edition of Time Sucker Updates. Sorry, it's just one message this week.

It's very special, very long. It's a very special, very long message, but a very important message. I moved the messages I was gonna include in this week to next week. Let's get into today's Time Sucker Updates. Today's message comes from Kenya, gonna leave his last name out for privacy, who says that it's, quote, still very hard for me to call it a cult, referring to the Tony and Susan Alamo cult. As a young man and even being able to see a side of Tony that most people didn't, he was very careful not to let too much crazy out.

It's still mind-boggling to think that people dedicated their lives to stain and defending his actions, and here is Kenya's message about being inside the Tony and Susan Alamo cult. Hi, Dan. Hi, Joe. Thanks for the opportunity. Thank you. I never thought it would be this hard to talk eight to ten minutes about something that happened almost twenty years ago.

My mom met Tony in 1987 after he had gotten divorced from Brigida. Shortly after they met, they got married by somebody in the church. Tony signed the person that officiated signed, their marriage certificate in my end, Tony signed on the other line. This all happened before I ever even met Tony. I think I talked to him once on the phone, before my mom called me to tell me she was married, and we're moving into the church.

She had been on a hunt for God, for lack of a better term. We had gone to several different churches, different denominations of churches, And somehow he found her. Didn't, she didn't look like Susie or Brigitte at all. She was actually dark-haired. Most people think she's Native American. Very pretty. I'm not biased in that opinion at all. But she was trying to be an actress. That's why she moved to Los Angeles when I was five.

And she was just about there. She had been in a few things, different play productions, music videos, whatever. And then Tony came along and she gave all that up to be his wife. So I had very few options. Tony told me the first time I talked to him that I had three. One was to move into the church and become a child of God and give up my sinning ways. Two was to go and live with my

ungodly and reprobate father who didn't care about me, or three was to become a ward of the state because he couldn't have a child of his out there all living all alone in the world by himself. That just wasn't gonna happen. So at the time I took the path of lace resistance and I moved in My mom left in 89 called me I went and saw her and she told me that You know she was leaving Tony because he was abusive because he drank because he smoked he cursed when other people weren't around He hit her he called her a nigger lover.

Oh my God. Just a bunch of stuff. And I hadn't really spent a whole lot of time around them. So they were traveling. I was going to school or doing whatever. And I just wasn't with them. So this all came as a shock to me. And I was trying to decide what to do.

If I was gonna leave with her or whatnot, she tells me the next morning that she's decided, her and Tony talked it out and she's decided to go back and it was wrong, she made a mistake, lies. And so she went back for about another year and then she left again for good At that time in 1990 I decided to stay because I'd already heard the story It was the same thing But I hadn't seen that behavior. So I stayed I was comfortable I I stayed, I was comfortable.

I didn't feel abused, I didn't feel trapped, I just liked it better than the life I had before. So I stayed in the church and kind of towed the line, being Tony's stepson, most people stayed out of my way didn't cause too much friction because they were either afraid I was going to report them to Tony or they just didn't know how to treat me they didn't know how to react. 1992 late 1992 Meta girl Well, she grew up in the church. We developed feelings for each other as Tony if we could get married He said yes, so we got married Shortly after that she got pregnant

Shortly after she got pregnant Well, I'd say within two or three months after she got pregnant. Well, I'd say within two or three months after she got pregnant, I got kicked out of the church. What? For things that had happened while I was out of the church, so a quick side story. In 1991, when the FBI and Crawford County authorities rated the Georgia Ridge property. I was there. Wow. I was supposed to leave with one of the other tenured

brothers, one of the tenured members, but they disappeared on me. So I ended up staying in Fort Smith with a couple of friends. We got into what we considered a life of a niquity at that time, which consisted of listening to rap music, not reading our Bible or praying, sneaking into a nightclub to dance and drinking non-alcoholic beer. Oh my God. And, oh yeah, fornicating with women. Oh, there you go. There you go.

It was kind of like a six month period there where I just felt okay, the ridge is gone, the church is gone. I don't know what to do. One of his lieutenants for lack of a better term found me. We ran into each other somewhere and he asked me to come back to the church. lie. He said, I'm sorry, him a letter explaining what I'd done. And then he would let God decide. He would let the Lord tell him what he was supposed to do. So I did that. I wrote in this letter, I explained what we had done. I explained, I fornicated how we drank these non-alcoholic beers, how we stuck into the holiday, the nightclub

at the holiday in and for Smith, how we drove around late at night, listening to rap music and ungodly music, and hadn't been reading my Bible and I hadn't been praying. And just I was living this life of sin in a small one bedroom apartment with three other guys and you know, milk crates and a piece of plywood for a table. I gave that letter, it was like four or five pages because of course I was pouring my heart out to God or to Tony at that time. I gave it to this person and they took it to Tony and then shortly after that they invited me over to his house, not to the person's house, where Tony was on the phone. Tony had Galkoma and he had his new wife by then, Sharon, read the letter, out loud over a speaker phone in front of the two families that were there, including kids that were 14, 15 years old,

and all the way down to three years old. And then whoever the hell else was in his house, but they read this letter out loud. I'm gonna show you. And I was utterly humiliated, ready to just walk out and go throw myself off a bridge somewhere, and at the end of it, he said I could come back. And so I kind of took it a little bit more serious from there.

I tried to be the model citizen that I was supposed to be. In 1992, late 92 I Developed feelings for a girl in the church And of course when that happened you usually were told it was the devil trying to mess with your emotions But if you prayed about it hard enough God would take those feelings away from you and if he didn't, then you were supposed to talk to Tony. And so I did that. And Tony felt that we should talk, that I should talk with her, and it turned out that she

had some feelings towards me and we ended up getting married. Shortly after we got married, she got pregnant. We got pregnant. We got pregnant. About two or three months after that, I got kicked out in 1993 because Tony had had a child with Sharon by this point and his child had been sick for a while. And so he felt it was because he had let Sin back in the church. So he decided to kick me out for the things that had happened back in 1991 when God said it was okay for me to come back now. It wasn't okay So I left in nineteen ninety-nine every serious way I

Found out about a year later that he had Decided that my ex-wife should be his fourth wife And son who was born. Oh my God in ninety three would be raised as his stepson. I tried to reach out to them, tried to call them, tried to write them to know avail for a while, but of course that's a heartbreaking Oh my God. Yeah. Position to be in and so I really just kind of, for lack of a better term, left it up to God to take care of. I have gotten back in touch with her in the last couple years. She, you know, before Tony died, she had left the church. She had gotten kicked out of the church as well.

And then after Tony died She felt Better about going to see our son and now I have his address and we're talking We're we're writing each other back and forth trying to build that relationship Well, I can imagine but you know 20 years ago affects me today 26 years ago affects me today Trying to get a job with no referenceable job history or income. That was pretty tough when I first got out. I will say that I think during that time that it really did make a transition from what could have been helpful to some people to just Tony's playground.

It really devolved after that the polygamy and the child abuse and people just not giving a shit. Like, there's been people that have been there for 30, 40 years. Their grandparents, you know, there's grandparents letting their grandchildren be married to this 70-year-old man. It's insane that people still follow that and people still think that that something good could come of it. I still talk with a few people that were in the cult, kids that grew up there, families that had moved in there that left beforehand, and you try to remember the good things that happened,

you try not to focus on the crazy shit. So it's interesting to have this opportunity, and try not to focus on the crazy shit. So it's interesting to have this opportunity, but I think I'm gonna leave it there for now. That's about 12 minutes or so. Let me know if there's anything else you guys want to know about. That was Katie Nookin. That was fantastic, man.

Wow, thank you for doing that. I'm sure that wasn't easy to relive some of that and you know, I have to put it on, you know, tape that way, sorry, we couldn't do an actual, you know, interview in real time with the craziness going on this week. We wanted to get this message in and just didn't have, you know,

a lot of available time this week, but man, that was, I think really powerful. I think it's one thing to hear somebody, you know, go over articles and compile information about a cult that they've never had-hand dealings with. And it's quite another thing to hear about somebody who actually lived in it and had their life very, very much affected by it. I mean, your mom was in the church, that's what got you in there. So he messed with, you know, your relationship with your mother. I'm sure in certain ways. And then you get married inside the cult, and then you have a, and then he takes your wife and kid essentially from you.

Oh my God. And it just shows how destructive, I mean, we do know how destructive these cold leaders are, but I think it's more powerful to hear about it by somebody whose life truly, truly was affected and harmed in so many ways. So glad you're out, glad you're rebuilding that relationship,

glad you're in touch with other members who were there. I'm sure there's, you know sure there's only so many things. As far as the cold life you can talk about with people who weren't in it, you need to, I'm sure it's so important to have relationships with people who went through what you went through that was such a big part of your life. So appreciate it so much, Kenya. Thank you for sharing that with all of us.

And maybe your message will keep somebody else who's right on the edge of joining some other cult from diving in and prevent them from a lot of harm. And then we'll go back to the regular time sucker updates next week. Thank you again, Kenya, for your update this week. Next time, suckers, I need a net. We all did. Have a great week, suckers. I need a net. We all did.

Have a great week suckers. Please don't get stuck in an unguarded prison room with a giant serial killer this week. And please do keep on sucking. I'm trying. I'm trying to like y'all go. The band's pretty good. I'm guessing they don't they don't all the musical work. Okay, okay, this is as bad as it was earlier. Uh-huh, may not be much different. Okay, not doing the cat, getting killed, gotta scream. Okay, okay, all right, yo-ko. Ah, okay, getting a little rougher down.

Mm-hmm. Okay, getting a little rougher down You're reaching too hard At least it's not screaming still oh boy Okay Oh what the fuck I think the thunder done their badge of a't dare imagine my way to the safety! Brincom, thank you, thank you, don't! Thank you, thank you, thank you, do! Make the death of Go away!

Shut the fuck up, you crazy! Ah!