Timesuck with Dan Cummins - 250 - Serial Killing Sex-Crazed Couple: Fred and Rose West

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

My God. This story is so over-the-top, it's hard to accept as true. But sadly, it did happen. For roughly two decades, Fred and Rose West were the patriarch and matriarch of torture, sadism, incest, and death at their horrific British home at 25 Cromwell Street in Gloucester, England. Both Fred and Rose were raised in preposterously incestuous homes where sexual abuse was normalized. They also both grew up in households of regular physical violence. This, plus some head injuries and a whole bunch of bad choices would lead to both becoming sex-crazed, abusive parents themselves. Together, as a couple, they seemed to push each other's violent and sexually experimental natures further than either ever would have ventured alone. Their strange pairing led to a true house of horrors in Gloucester in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. This one has to be heard to be believed. The first Bad Magic Productions June charity we are proud to donate $7,050 towards is Trinity Stables. They run a specialty program in Georgia called Stable Moments, a weekly mentorship program that utilizes equine-assisted learning to achieve life skills that better prepare foster and adopted kids for healthy transitions into adulthood. To find out more, please visit: https://www.trinitystables.net/The second Bad Magic Productions June charity we are proud to donate $7,050 towards is Vintage Pet Rescue, a Rhode Island-based nonprofit committed to rescuing “vintage” aka senior pets from shelters and assisting their owners who can no longer care for their vintage pets. To find out more, please visit: https://www.vintagepetrescue.org/ Watch the Suck on YouTube: https://youtu.be/47dqR0tllM4Merch - https://badmagicmerch.com/ Discord! https://discord.gg/tqzH89v Want to join the Cult of the Curious private Facebook Group? Go directly to Facebook and search for "Cult of the Curious" in order to locate whatever current page hasn't been put in FB Jail :) For all merch related questions/problems: [e-mail] (copy and paste) Please rate and subscribe on iTunes and elsewhere and follow the suck on social media!! @timesuckpodcast on IG and http://www.facebook.com/timesuckpodcast Wanna become a Space Lizard? We're over 10,000 strong! Click here: https://www.patreon.com/timesuckpodcast Sign up through Patreon and for $5 a month you get to listen to the Secret Suck, which will drop Thursdays at Noon, PST. You'll also get 20% off of all regular Timesuck merch PLUS access to exclusive Space Lizard merch. You get to vote on two Monday topics each month via the app. And you get the download link for my new comedy album, Feel the Heat. Check the Patreon posts to find out how to download the new album and take advantage of other benefits.

Fred and Rose West headed back today to the realm of true crime for another brutal suck for two decades Fred and Rose where the patriarch and matriarch of torture, sadism, incest and death at their horrific British home their house at 25 Cromwell Street in Gloucester was just minutes from a busy shopping center with the layout of the home with the side entrance and little street lighting meant Fred and Rose could sneak in victim after victim almost undetected Mint, Fred, and Rose could sneak in victim after victim almost undetected. Then they would often lead them into the sexual torture chamber they had created in their cellar. Some victims weren't detected because they lived at 25 at Cromwell Street. Their own daughter, Heather, 16 of the time for death, would become one of their victims

and not the only child of theirs who would be murdered. After decades of debauchery cops discovered what would be termed in the press as a house of horrors a few years after Heather disappeared. The monstrous pair had strangled her, stomped her, cut off her head, her mutilated corpse was dug up at their cluster home by police who were stunned to find eight other bodies, and additional bodies had been buried elsewhere. Much more well-known in the UK than in North America, just who are these maniacs? Fred West came from a long line of herifredshire farm labors, born in 1941 in the small village

of much Markle, approximately 120 miles west of London to Walter and Daisy West. Fred began life as a beautiful baby, with huge piercing blue eyes and blonde hair, but he wouldn't stay innocent for long. His own childhood may have doomed him. Fred claimed that his father had sex with his sisters and that he lost his own virginity to his mother. He also had sex with his sisters. He grew up in a house of so much incest. Rose's early life, not much better, eerily similar. Rose Mary Letz was born in November 1953 in Devon, England with

a less than auspicious heritage. Her father Bill Letz was a paranoid schizophrenic. Her mom, Daisy Letz, suffered from crippling depression, as a teenager Rose showed signs of being sexually percusious, walking around the family naked after her baths and climbing into bed with her younger brother and molesting him. Why was she so sexual? She was molested for years by her father, so much incest in her house as well, so much physical abuse, a sick mirror of Fred's own childhood. In 1969, these two victims of terrible childhoods would meet and pain death and chaos would follow.

They would take what had been done to them and do that in so much worse to others. All this and more in today's British true crime, how twisted can one family tree be addition of Time Suck. Happy Monday, meat sacks. It's a good day. You're alive, listing to this episode. Woohoo! That first part probably quite a bit better than the second. Now, Dan Cummins of Suckmaster, possibly a Kathulu cultist, definite cult of the curious cultist,

and you are listening to Time-Suck. Symphony of insanity stand-up dates coming up soon, kicking things off in August. Excited to get back on the road a little bit. Spokane, Cleveland, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, Portland, Philadelphia, Kansas City, Denver, San Francisco, Columbus, Tampa. So many stops coming up this fall. Excited to hear reactions to material in real time again. And maybe a little afraid of that. But mostly excited.

Some dates already sold out. Some shows added markets, not adding shows and others. So get some tickets soon. If you want to have me come through town, it'll probably be longer rotation now because I'm not doing as many dates each year because of all these podcasts I love doing now. So it will not be a for markets, you know, I won't be back in 12 months. It'll probably be more like, you know, two years. Also excited for the animated clips Thomas Royal has been doing for Time Sucks, Gareda Death is we dumb. Did you know he animates a 60-second-ish clip from one of our

podcasts every week, and we put it on the Bad Magic YouTube channel on our socials also, like at Dan Cummins' comedy on Instagram and Facebook. He's great. The cartoons kill me. He brings a lot of insanity to life, and if you want Thomas to do cartoons for you, you can hit him up. He's fast, reliable, talented animator who after working for us took the leap into full-time animation work. And it's really exciting to see how excited he is. It's really cool. Find him hire him at salty monkey media, salty monkey media.com. We love Thomas. Super sweet 80s new wave style time suck basketball tee in the store now at badmagicmerch.com

Very cool. Logan continues to amazes with his design skills. So show those guns at summer meets acts. I'll hide those bad boys and bad girls under your sleeves. And how about that sit for announcements today? We have a lot of suck to get to. Headed back to the UK for today's true crime episode. Last time we were there for true crime anyway was John Hay, the acid bath murder.

Remember that guy? Really fucked up individual. Healed six to nine people, dissolved most of their remains and acid, grew some story. Today's story is somehow way more fucked up. It was a lot more work for me than normal to wrap my head around Fred and Rose West than it did for many of the other dirt bags we've covered. So incredibly unusual for two people, a husband and wife, to agree to commit so many heinous crimes together.

And they, and their crimes very much committed together. And their crimes ran the gamut from rape, child abuse, incest, sexual torture, prostitution, often brazenly having sex with clients around their children, forcing their own child into prostitution, murder with clients around their children, forcing their own child into prostitution, murder, murder of their children. Most of all that took place in a busy neighborhood in the small city of Gloucester, England. Most took place in 1970s and in urban homes, surrounded closely by neighbors near a shopping mall.

In a home full of borders coming in and out who didn't realize apparently that some of the noises they heard at night during their stay at the West residence, where the cries of people being raped, tortured, and murdered in the fuck dungeon of a cellar they had. Stories don't get much more twisted than this one. For long time suckers, I'd say this week's tale is on par with previous episodes like the toybox killer, Joseph Duncan, Joseph Fritzel, the worst of the killers we've covered. If you're new to the show and not familiar with graphic, really uncensored true crime tales,

I might want to pick a different topic to start off with. If you're still here, okay? Alright, buckle the fuck up. Pretty straight forward tale today as far as narrative structure goes. I'm going to talk a little bit about the most unusual aspect of today's episode. A team, a married man and woman, raising a family together who also happened to rape and murder and molest. How rare is this?

How rare is this? Excuse me. You don't come across stories like this very often, thank God. And then the overwhelming majority of the episode will take place in today's timeline, covering the lives of Fred and Rose individually, you know, from their births and then linking when they get together and then staying with them until death and Fred's case and incarceration in Rose's case. So let's begin.

The vast majority of the serial killers we've covered here on Time Sick Work Alone. Most serial killers work alone. Couple notable exceptions, Charles Eing and Leonard Lake, Henry Lucas, Otis Toul. But today's couple is so different than even those duos. Neither one of those murderous pairs were romantically linked, and they certainly were not raising

a family together. We've never explored a couple quite like Fred and Rose West. Never explored anyone even remotely close to these two, actually. They're just such an anomaly. It makes sense to me logically why most serial killers keep their dark secrets entirely to themselves. I think about previous times, like topics and serial killers like Dennis Raider, aka the BTK killer, Robert Hanson, the butcher baker, both were married with children during their killing sprees and they kept their families totally in the dark. Same with prolific serial killer Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer, Israel Keys. We covered

not that long ago, had a girlfriend and child at home while he killed. All of these men worked very hard to keep their murderous exploits away from their families. They went to great lengths to live secret lives that their partners were later, you know, shocked by, which makes sense. Why risk your freedom by telling another person who could then turn you in? Also, if you were going to tell someone, why would that person be your romantic partner? You know, that's a big risk. Are they gonna approve?

Not likely. It's hard enough for most of us just to find someone to romantically cohabitate with. Someone who aligns well with our interests, who will tolerate our faults. Imagine how hard it would be to find someone who you're attracted to, who's also attracted to you. Someone you want to have kids with, want to share a bed with share a life with and also

someone who wants to rape, torture and kill someone who has no problem with insists who thinks it's totally acceptable. That's a very tough tinder or bumble match. Rare and terrifying. Okay, cupid profile. Let me break down why a couple like Fred and Rose West ever existing is so rare with some stats. Some numbers involving different aspects of how they're raised, what they did.

Both were raised in incredibly incestuous households, which normalized incest for them. And the odds of anyone being raised in a ridiculously incestuous and physically abusive home are thankfully pretty small. Estimates are all over the place, but the studies I've seen regarding incest that involves actual vaginal or anal intercourse, you know, penetration, puts the number at less than 2% of the general population, possibly far less than 2%. And regarding male victims of incest involving sexual intercourse, the number drops below 1%. And then out of these victims, how many are regularly having sex with their parents for a period of numerous

years, like both Fred and Rose? And out of that number, which has to be small, how many of those victims go on to be insesuous victimizers in the same home regularly having sex with younger siblings? How many people are surrounded by that much fucking incest? It has to be what? Less than 1% of 1% of the general population. And then what are the fucking odds that two people raised in households like this would actually be raised in households in the same area and then meet and then be attracted

to one another and then date get married, stay married for over two decades and then not only repeat the insanely incestuous pattern with their own children, but also take things much further. Fred and Rose West have to be like a one in a billion couple, one in five billion or something. Thank God, it's almost completely unheard of for someone as dark and deranged as Fred West to meet someone equally dark, if not more dark, who shares their specific type of derangement. The narrative regarding what kind of relationship these two actually had has changed a lot over

the years. Initially, Fred was seen as the monster and Rose was viewed as one of his victims who was coerced into helping satisfy his depraved sexual fantasies And I think this has to do with both sexism. You know a woman couldn't possibly be as sexually monstrous as a man It's just not in them and also there are more stats that illustrate why the relationship was originally framed this way. Statistically, women just flat out aren't as rapey and physically abusive and murderous and as murderous as men. Across the world, looking at a compilation of crime stats from almost every nation, almost 78% of murderers are men globally. And when it comes to perpetrators of rape, over 90% of rapists are men in almost every country. In cases of child rape, study show anywhere from 80% to about 98% of perpetrators being

men. And most studies men account for, you know, well over 90% of these crimes. Couldn't find stats specifically for gender differences and incest cases between parents and childs or children, but I imagine men account for the majority of those crimes as well, since a lot of studies show that around half of child molesters molest their own family parents and childs or children, but I imagine men account for the majority of those crimes as well. Since a lot of studies show that around half of child molesters molest their own family members. So fucking creepy dicks.

A lot of creepy dirty wings out there looking for homes and all the wrong holes, not enough clean wings in the world. A lot of twisted testosterone seeking the wrong release. So because of all these stats, a lot of people including investigators had a real hard time viewing Rose as equally as being as equally monstrous as Fred, but she certainly was. Many victims who escaped with their lives would later portray her as being the more sexually aggressive and abusive of the two.

The instigator, the leader, zero, Hale Lucifina is there. Lucifina is all for female sexuality, but not like this. Rose West on her own is a really rare kind of criminal. Super rare for a woman to do what she did. And the odds of such a rare true crime specimen, having a male counterpart as a romantic partner, it's fucking crazy. So what kind of personality profiles

usually link up for these super rare heinous crime sprees? Now, there's actually no consistent personality pairing, not really. Criminalologists do say that there will generally be one dominant and one driving personality type is contrasted with a submissive and compliant personality type. The dominant person will be the one making the plans, mostly calling the shots, while the submissive partner will look to please the dominant person by complying to their wishes. For Fred and Rose West, though, this still doesn't really fit their power dynamic,

after staying on this episode really for two weeks, I kind of like worked on this one, would be split pretty evenly. If anything based on how they both reacted after arrest, after their arrests, I would say Rose was the alpha in this relationship, even if her alpha edge was slight. And her children would also feel this way, that Rose was the dominant. Red would do a Fred would do most of the dirty work involving burying the corpses, but it was Rose who physically abused the children the most often, the most viciously. She seemed to instigate the sexual abuse of most of the victims who got away. And again, according to family,

like, according to one family member, she lost her temper more often and controlled the family's finances. Again, such an unusual couple. I think part of the reason they got away with what they did for so long was because they just didn't fit any typical criminal profile. Also, they just didn't present as people you would think of as serial killers, which I know you can apply to almost all serial killers, but they really

didn't look like anyone. You would think you'd have to worry about, at least not to me, and to a lot of the people who've written about them, they just look so damn average. If they would have to worry about. At least not to me. And to a lot of the people who've written about them, they just look so damn average. If they would have been my neighbors, if I just said hello to them a few times, seeing them and passing, I wouldn't have thought twice about them.

I don't think any alarm bells would have gone off. Fred was not traditionally handsome, especially as he aged out of his 20s, but he wasn't unattractive either. Just yeah, just very just kind of average, described as slight and small by some investigators, thin, crooked teeth. He was only conventionally attractive feature with his bright blue eyes.

He was slightly overweight by his thirties, walked with a limp, but was also fit and strong. Kind of a classic dad bod, really. Now, he wore the same navy blue jacket almost every day, typically wore sweater, blue jeans beneath it. British dad fashion, back when he was doing what he did. Rose medium height again average height thin pretty attractive, but you know, not too far to the average range. I went to was young got thicker. She got older like a lot of us do. She rocked a mom bod. She wore mom jeans for most of their evil murder spree or a good portion of it. Her glossy black hair was cut short but fell over her eyes

in the front, passed her large glasses with colored plastic frames Typically wore gold hoop earrings also is at home addressing gown slippers long white nylon socks She did not look like the crazed you know sex crazed meets actually was she looked like a nice lady Much more likely to offer you maybe a cookie some tea Then she was to take you down to the seller and fuck you and then kill you. She and Fred presented his typical middle class British people, a British couple, their house 25 Cromwell Street further helped present this air of normalcy as well, at least from the outside. It lived in a modest semi detached house that Fred lavish care on, including adding in an ornate house sign fashioned in

rocked iron. They read the home's address and curly white letters in a black frame. A second pair of iron gates, about six feet tall, were painted gray and fastened with a lock in the middle. They kept a key to the front door under a stone, just a few feet away. The front door was stained dark brown

and it attempt to make it look like oak. And there was a lucky horse you nailed above the door, reminding Fred of the country village where he grew up. He was a sentimental and sestuous rapist of murder. It was all a little ornate, a little overdone, but nothing you would look twice at, walking down the street. Inside, though, the house of horror is not typical. It would very likely start to wonder what the fuck was going on in this place.

Started out normal, then got pretty unusual, little ways in. The small hallway just inside the front door was painted lime green. There was a tool room where Fred kept his building equipment at the end of the hall, the washing machine and dryer were there head through another door down a step and you were in the living area, you know, nothing odd so far. But then go up to the second floor up a set of stairs behind the door to the right of the entryway. A landing would lead to another lounge with a walk in bar by the window tropical mural and a television.

Some guys, you know, want a so called man cave Fred wanted to pimple out. Usually on the TV hardcore porn was playing, whether the kids were around or not, and they were often around. Fred and Rose's favorite porn was, you know, very hardcore BDSM stuff. Get masks. Someone getting whipped shit like we talked about in the Robert Ben Rhodes truck stop, you know, killer suck. Remember incubus resistance is futile slave except submission to incubus.

The censored deparation hood electrified nipple clips, mummification tape and dildo drill. They are only the beginning of your torment. Await the sexual ascension and devastation only incubus can bring to a slave. Fred West as you learn every bit as sexually scary as the truck stop killer as was Rose. And his pimple lounge of his, Fred often, just sat around watching this porn. He could also be an intercom, listen to another kind of show.

The sounds of Rose having sex elsewhere in the house with some paid client. Sometimes Rose made so much noise that she could be heard without the intercom. Typically took her clients upstairs to the room directly above the bar. 25 Cromwell was an odd place inside that had been shotally expanded over the years by Fred himself.

It was kind of a shitty carpenter, full of odd corners, you know, support beams in the middle of rooms. It's also a house full of children. One of the most fucked up aspects of today's tale. John's coming in and out to loudly fuck Rose, Fred watching porn on the couch. You know, maybe someone literally tied up in the fuck dungeon seller.

And there's just kids running around hoping they don't get beat or fuck that day. Children ranging in age from toddlers to teenagers filled a house for most of the time. Fred and Rose were killing and raping inside his walls. Some of the kids were Fred and roses. Some of the kids were children fathered by Rose's clients. Some were Fred's kids from before he knew Rose somewhere foster kids. We'll talk about that later. It's unbelievable. Uh, and Fred and Rose exposed all these kids to a world of basically zero sexual boundaries. The atmosphere in the West house was ridiculously

sexually charged, basically all the time. Uh, Fred and Rose would talk about sexual acts committed with Rose's prostitution clients and graphic detail in front of the kids. Fred would often also talk about random women he saw in the street, what he wanted to sexually do to them. They would host literal orgies. They both molested their own kids. You know, they had their swingers, everything. The kids who survived this ridiculous atmosphere would later refer to Fred and Rose as being sexually as being completely sex mad to psychopathic nymphomaniacs. as being completely sex-mat, to psychopathic nymphomaniacs. What is insane place to grow up? I can't imagine spending a childhood in that kind of home. Their fuck happy home was a place created

by the rear combination of Fred and Rose's very atypical childhoods. Fred and Rose had such fucked up childhoods themselves as you'll see in the timeline today. This all felt very normal to them. Their collective normal was so, so far from what the overwhelming majority of us find to be normal. Thinking about their normal made me think about just how subjective the concept of normalcy really is. You ever

let your mind wander there? How strange is that when you really think about it? What am I in fuck? Why would you take a strange detour here regarding the nature of normalcy that I promise will circle back to Fred and Rose West. We as an all of humanity collective humanity we make up all this shit is we go along laws priorities morality what gods we worship if any. How many different spiritual belief systems exist out there in the world today and how many of their followers are 100% convinced. That they're living the quote unquote right life. They're doing things the right way, the only way since many of their theology directly oppose one another mathematically. If one of their belief systems is actually right, that means that the overwhelming majority

of humans on earth don't know what the fuck they're talking about. When it comes to the convictions, they hold most dearly. That's 100% true. It has to be best case scenario, spiritually, billions of people are Completely wrong in their belief of how we got here and who is watching over us. Such an odd species We make up all these rules to live by and in the grand scheme of things these rules don't mean shit Last week's episode on Lovecraft and his cosmic core clearly have impacted my thoughts But really it's so interesting. Some cultures think premarital sex

is not only normal but important. What you should do. Others, you know, cultures think it's sinful and terrible. Same act, very different moral views of it. And some cultures monogamy is one of many equally moral options for romantic relationships. And others, it's the only moral option. Anything else is disgusting and depraved.

Some cultures don't care at all about homosexuality. Others despise it so much they label it as being illegal. Then there are different political belief systems, right? There are diehard conservatives, bleeding heart liberals, communists, capitalists. So many of these people think that their system is far and away, obviously the best. Anything else is nonsense. And just like with religion, best case scenario mathematically, most of them have to be flat out fucking wrong. If one of the belief systems happens to be right. Again, best case when it comes to humanity's driving belief systems, most people are wrong. So many different views on it. This is what's right. This is how you should live. This is how you have to live. There are people who load profanity, people who don't care at all about it, people who find pornography immoral and exploitive, people who think it's a great

tool to use to enhance one sex life and celebrate sexuality. The only real definite in life is death. We're all gonna shed our mortal coils. What happens after death? We can't even agree on that. What happens between birth and death? We have to eat, breathe, drink water if we want to keep living. But the rest? Well, what we choose to do with our time, decide whether it's wrong or right. Pretty damn subjective, isn't it? We don't have to wear clothes. We don't have to have money or laws or taxes. And I can go so much further, but you get to point much of what defines our lives,

what we value, what is good, what is bad, what we believe, what we don't believe, subjective. Through years of agreement, civilizations are born, cultures arise for future meat sacks to be born into. And then those meat sacks can choose to buy into that culture's values, that civilization's rules rules or like Fred and Rose West. See, I circled back. They can really choose not to.

Holy shit. Did Fred and Rose West choose not to buy into the culture around them? They lived very much in their own world. They made up their own rules. Oh, when it came to a lot of what they did, I don't think they really thought of it as evil. They were just living by a very different code than the rest of us. They built a world for themselves, a world that was a continuation of the unusual childhood

worlds they had, a world most of us, you know, find to be super fucked up. In the world they created for their family, literally fucking just about anyone, everyone was totally normal, incest, rape, physical abuse, part of daily life. Murder also acceptable in their reality. Some days you watch the tele, other days you kill a sex life. That's just life in the West home. Some days you have an orgy, the kids can hear,

other days you literally fuck the kids. Another day in the West home. And the insist and murder, no more moral or immoral than watching the tele. At least not to Fred and Rose. Thank God the overwhelming majority of us do not subscribe to their reality. Oh my God, a true hell on earth if we did.

All right, let's really dig into the details now. Fred and Rose is sexually charged hell by beginning with the days they were born, familiarizing ourselves with the key details of their childhoods and learn a little bit about their parents who influenced them and helped them become the monsters they were. And we'll cover the crimes that define their adulthoods in today's time suck timeline.

Shrap on those boots, soldier. We're marching down a time suck timeline. On September 29th, 1941, Fred West is born in the very old and very small English village of Much Markle in the county of Herifordshire. About 650 people live there now. The town has been there and been a small town for over a thousand years. Old town sits about 120 miles west to London. The most interesting thing that's ever happened in Much Markle was a massive landslide during the reign of Elizabeth I that occurred back in 1575.

Uh, three miles north, northwest of the village, uh, on the eastern face of Markle Ridge, a massive landslip estimated at two million cubic feet took place over three days, starting on February 17th, 1575, named the wonder. It was so large that full-grown trees were carried down the slope moving from one farm to another. Landslide destroyed portions of two roads and a chapel left to wall of earth and stone 15 feet high and people would travel from all over central England to marvel at the wonder in the days before TV podcast and video games gave them, you know, more stimulating shit to do with a free time. Fred's parents had met in much more cool. The town described as being pretty culturally removed from the rest of England. Read backwards as fuck. A little country village full of mostly farmers felt like a throwback to an older, simpler

and frankly much less educated time. Fred West's father was a man in Walter West born in 1914. He'd been raised near the town of Ross on We, a town of about 10,000, a whole eight miles from much Markle back then. It might be Ross on why. That just insults a lot more substantial than it does now. Walter's father had been an army sergeant to his deck raid for his service in World War 1. Walter would never receive any equivalent honors.

A really honors any honors at all. He wasn't what you'd call a real accomplished man, and he certainly was not an honorable man. He never learned to read or write, not uncommon for the area. He left school at the age of 11 to work on the family farm as his grandfather's wagon boy, also not an uncommon thing to do in that area at that time. Walter married for the first time in 1937

when he was 23 to a woman named Gertrude Maddox, herself 45 years old, and moved away after their marriage and set up in a town called Preston, 160 miles away, and Walter went to work at a place called the Thomas Farm. Gertrude was not able to have children, so a couple fostered a one-year-old boy named Bruce from an orphanage, but then just two years into their marriage, Gertrude got stung by a bee and it didn't feel good, so Walter took their kid back to the orphanage and left town. Sorry, glass over an important detail there.

A Gertrude got stung by a bee and died. Probably should have included that last part. And then Walter not being able to, uh, not being able to work and raise a small child. He gave their son Bruce back to the orphanage and Bruce lucked the fuck out in this deal. This Walter is a real piece of work. Two and a half months later Walter returns home attends the 1939 much Michael Fair, which I'm sure was super exciting. And it's something called the Needle Workstall undoubtedly the highlight of this very awesome fair. You met the creepy woman who would

become Fred West mother, 16 year old Daisy Hill. Daisy lived with her parents in a cottage on a sloping track known as Cow lane. Very creative choice there because their house was built on a slope and their last name was Hill. They were known as Hillbillies. They're also known as Hillbillies because they were dirty backwoods and fucking creepy, probably incestuous. Daisy described it as sources

as not being conventionally attractive. That's like the most PC way of just saying somebody was ugly. Oh man, not conventionally attractive. That's like the most PC way of saying somebody was ugly. Man, not conventionally attractive. She was thrilled at Walter West, not a real looker himself, was interested in her before long on January 27th, 1940. The two were married at St. Bartholomew's Church, a very cool building built in the 13th century.

You can still visit. These two will later be buried in the cemetery next to the church. You can see their tombstones, if you're a serious true crime junkie out in that part of the UK. Days you wore a white dress with a veil, carried tulips and a lucky horse shoe. That's, you know, got a real country wedding when you're carrying a horse shoe down the out. The newly married couple set up their home just off the A449 main road.

Days you got pregnant almost immediately, but the daughter was born prematurely and died in the cradle a few days later. Walter and Daisy then moved into a red brick cottage, just outside of town, in a neighborhood called St. Seishell's Corner. Their home was called the Bickerton cottage, and it didn't have electricity, gas, or running water, which was typical for the area. And that's how you know your village is small and old. When a lot of the houses have nicknames, right? Instead of giving someone an address to find, you know, you say stuff like, uh, they're staying at the old Bickerton cottage. Just down the road there, past the nickels place, right before God singer's barn. People still do stuff like that all the time where I grew up. I do stuff like that, referring

to places where I grew up. Uh, the West kept chicken and pigs in an outhouse behind the cottage, or the empty the bucket that served as a toilet. There in this wonderful sounding palace of a home. Daisy got pregnant again and she gave birth to a healthy baby boy on September 29, 1941. After their first child dying so soon after birth, they waited a few weeks to name this one. Wanted to make sure you're going to stick around for this. Spent a lot of, you know, brain power on a name, I guess.

They named their boy Frederick Walter, Steven West, known in the family as Freddie. And Daisy was obsessed with Freddie right from the start. She took her little baby boy to bed with her every night, cuddling him to the exclusion of her husband. She loved his strawberry, you know, strawberry blonde, curly hair is astonishingly blue eyes. And she was too infatuated with Freddie. It was creepy.

Her relationship with Freddie will turn out to be anything but natural. Daisy will give birth to six more children over the next 10 years. And with all these mouths to feed, the West soon descend into considerable poverty, even by much Markle standards. During World War two, Walter will only earn about six pounds a week, about 300 pounds a week today. That equates to about 25% less than the UK minimum wage right now, not nearly enough to provide for a large family. The West literally had to live off the land eating apples, the fell from their trees and eggs, you know, that their chickens produced. Walter would

bring peels of milk back from the farm every day and tend to a vegetable garden behind the house, Daisy baked bread, and did the family's laundry in an old iron tub. In July 1946, finances get a little bit better and the West move again and arrive at the home where Fred would grow up and learn how to not properly raise a family. And now live in a large semi-detached building with two chimney stacks called More Court Cottage. Another named home. I love it. Walter found work tending to the milking herd at More Court Farm. More court cottage had three bedrooms, one for the parents, one for the now three boys they had and one for their three girls. Two of the children ended up dying in infancy out of the eight Daisy gave birth to having her final child in 1951.

10 baths in the parlor, which were they all washed up, toilet facilities were once again limited to a single bucket, which had to be emptied every morning. It all sounds delightful. Once again, I'm so happy to be living during the present day, hot showers and cool AC. Fuck the past. Never had to ship. I never have to ship the bucket. The West Home quickly became filthy. Rats were constantly appearing. Daisy was always blasting them with Walter shotgun. Fred started going to the local primary school shortly after moving to Morecourt Cottage. The West kids would walk two miles there and back every day.

Young Fred got in a lot of trouble at school. School didn't really suit him. He described him basically every source has been, well, a little dim, a little fucking stupid. As a kid, he was also described as dirty and always in trouble. He was a real champion of a boy. He was a little hell-raiser who regularly got slapped by teachers with a slipper and by the age of eight

started getting cained by teachers as well. He had not been in trouble at home for his acting out in school. Mama West actually went to school and berated his teachers for whooping baby boy numerous times. Fred's mom was still obsessed with him. At some point in his childhood, her obsession became sexual.

Right, the early 1950s, no exact date was given by Fred for when it began. A lot of incest was going down in the West household. Fred's mother began molesting him somewhere around the time. He began going to puberty and possibly, I'll say extremely likely, probably his brothers as well. Fred will later say he lost his virginity to his mother and he didn't seem to think that was a bad thing. If he felt any shame around this or any anger towards his mother, he never spoke about

it or showed it, felt normal to him. And in his childhood home, incest had been normalized. Fred's father Walter was molesting his three sisters. His sexual abuse was not done secretly. It was done openly. It was presented as this is just what families do. Fred was speak of his father sexual appetites basically saying that his creepy horny self was a was a case of the apple not falling far from the fucked up tree. Playing the father raped all of his sisters, didn't hide it, didn't hide it. Plame that, you know, what he did was natural. I thought he had a right to do it as their father, a little twist on the old.

I brought you into this world and I'll take you out of it. Walter's mindset was more I brought you into this world. No, fuck you whenever I want. How extra weird. They have your dad not only molest you, but then according to one doc I watch, just casually talk about it around the rest of the family. Like it's totally normal. Some of us have parents who talk to us about making sure we do our homework,

making sure we're clean our plate at the dinner table, and we ask us about our day. Others talk about fucking us. How odd to not try and hide it. Fred would even later claim that his dad at some point in his childhood, around the time he went through puberty again, taught him about bestiality.

What another odd, fatherly lesson. Son, pay attention. This is how real man fucks a cow. Don't grab the tail like a sissy. I ain't raised no tail grabber. Grabber like you mean it. Grab the front of the hind legs like so and thrust like this. See? Watch me. My father taught me how to fuck a cow. Now I'm teaching you. It's the West way. I don't know if they fucked a cow. I just know that two of them would later work together on a farm with cows. There's a lot of cows around

looking at everything else in this story. I'm going to assume that they were probably cow fuckers. Clearly not a big social worker presence in this part of England at this time. Fred's doing whatever the hell he wants, no one's reporting or investigating anything. West kids are really having their minds warped. They're being molested, taught to think that's how families behave. Later come out, not surprising, this kind of home that Fred and at least one of his brothers John, 13 months as junior, were having sex with their sisters. At least one account, it was presented that Fred was raping his little sisters.

So this is how he grows up. This is the way the rules of the world are presented to him that families fuck each other. At the age of 15 he leaves school without taking any exams. He barely count. Couldn't read or write beyond the level of a seven year old. He hated school. He's probably mad. Now that his teacher is frowned on him trying to fuck everybody.

School sucks. He just don't even fuck you ever. They don't even let me fuck other kids. What's their problem? Stupid prudes? I guess this weren't raised right, you know? Well, he hadn't done well academically. He had shown some mechanical aptitude. He was handy and boy, boy, what's he ever? And this would help him stay steadily employed as an adult like woodworking classes. He made a three-legged milking stool and a bench, which he gave to his mom Daisy. Of course he did. 1956, the age of 15, Fred gets a job working with daddy Famdeck.

I mean, Walter, at a few local farms. People later remembered him as a messy boy, mud-covered Wellington boots with yellow teeth and toughs of facial hair, but only gave mumbling answers and often looked away. West families standing out even in much marker for being dirty fucking hillbillies. Backing up a little now to 1953 when Fred was 12, this was the year that Rose West will be born. Born Rose Letz November 29th 1953 to an equally dysfunctional family. Rose's father William Andrew Letz, known as Bill, have been born in 1921

and brought up in Northam, small coastal town on the North Devon Coast in Southwest England, 150 miles southwest of the cultural oasis of much-Marcle. Bill's mother was a nurse and his father did odd jobs. Rose's dad was sickly as a child, then as a young adult, went on to work in an electrical shop in nearby Bitiford.

After finishing secondary school, he then worked as a radio engineer for the Bristol Airport company. Bill's best friend was Lionel Green, who's family owned a business at London's East End or in London's East End and when World War II began, the Greens moved into a large house and bid afford to escape the blitz where Lionel lived with his parents and three sisters and a girl the Greens employed to help look after the kids. And that girl's name was Daisy Gwendolyn Foller. She would become Rose's mother. Daisy was from Chadwell Heath, a bit of a rundown area of East London

and the greater London area today, back then its own proper little blue-collar town in Essex. Her father was a professional soldier, Daisy followed in his footsteps of public service. During the 1930s, she worked at a public house in London's brick lane. Then she got work with the grains, moved with them to Devon. She wasn't immediately impressed with Bill. She seemed stiff and a bit of a dud.

He hated profanity, didn't smoke or drink. He preferred grapefruit juice to beer. He seemed too straight-laced for her liking. She had no idea he was trying harder than the average bear to regulate his behavior in public because he was hiding some real darkness inside and some serious mental illness. Daisy liked to build and manhandle her or chase after other girls and they started to date.

One of the worst decisions, if not the worst, she would ever make. Two were soon married on April 18th, 1942 at St. Mary's Church in Essex. Afterwards Daisy moved in with Bill's parents and their tiny house on Castle Street, which his parents kept obsessively clean. And it was only after they'd gotten married that Rose learned that Bill was a diagnosed schizophrenic who had been suffering severe psychotic episodes since he was a kid and who was not taking his medication. All these episodes continued throughout their marriage whenever he was off his meds, you know, which was usually he was off his meds.

He'd become aggressive out of nowhere and often had irrational suspicions that people around him are plotting against him. His mental illness combined with him being a terrible human being at his core But physically and sexually abusive monster would create a nightmare of a home life for days in their children Bill wanted a large family awesome always great when unstable monsters want lots of kids and they got busy in that department right away Who were still living with Bill's parents when their first child Patricia was born in 1943, second-daughter Joyce, born 18 months later. A few months after that Bill joins the Navy's radio operator, sent to the Philippines. When the war ends, 1945 Bill volunteers to stay on remaining in the Navy for the next

three years. Their third daughter, Glenis, born in 1950, and then the lets moved to a house in North them at 57 more when a park wrote. Their house was a newly built three bedroom property on a small estate. When Bill came back from visits, it was clear that his navy training had influenced him. He demanded that their house be kept spotless. And he and Davey often got into shouting matches about this. He also, when here comes schizophrenia, did not want Daisy to be friends with anybody, including their neighbors,

who founded all the Daisy only spoke when spoken to overly controlling. That's often how the abuse starts me. It's acts of someone really loves you and isn't an abusive shit. They don't worry about who you're talking to. I don't care who my wife Lindsey talks to. Actually, the more friends she has to talk to, the less she feels the need to talk my year off. JK kind of, but not really.

I love her. Also love that I'm by far not her only social outlet. Daisy gets pregnant with her fourth child, Bill leaves the Navy. He regret doing so for the rest of his life and resent his family for it. I think he would have resented his family no matter what, because he's a real piece of shit. That's just the reason he gave for some of his abuse.

It wasn't much work in Devon at the time. Jobs were paid not paying much. So Bill works for a while repairing television sets, but his mental illness makes it so that he is not employed for very long in that regard. He bounces around to various odd jobs. He'd be unemployed for long stretches. I have no idea how he kept his shit together for a while in the Navy. The lets for a poor family, but despite being poor, Daisy was determined never to let it show. She dressed her children well, brought them up with good manners,

also gave them chores, ironing, babysitting, doing the shopping. And of course, when Bill came home, it was everyone's job to make sure that the house was super, super clean, so that father didn't lose this shit. Let's work really hard to make sure the home was clean because if they didn't, Daisy and the kids got beat. By the mid fifties, Daisy was often seen around the village with black eyes. At least on one occasion, Bill was witness pulling his screaming wife down the front steps of their house and hitting her.

Fucking ridiculous. Also, by the early fifties, the front steps of their house and hitting her. Fucking ridiculous. Also by the early 50s, the children weren't allowed to play outside in the yard anymore. Why is that? Because they were also being beaten savagely. Bill would often hit his kids, boys and girls in the face. He'd beat them with copper rods from the boiler. He'd throw nearly boiling hot water on them. He was a severely mentally ill psychopath.

In 1952, Daisy gives birth to their fourth child, Andrew, and the birth leaves her with severe postpartum depression. I'm sure years of spousal abuse didn't help in the depression area either. In 1953, Daisy has a full on nervous breakdown. She becomes an outpatient at the psychiatric unit of the hospital in Bidaford. A doctor there suggests that she might benefit from electroconvulsive therapy or ECT, so Daisy tries it. She strap down, doctors attach electrodes to her scalp, give her a piece of rubber to bite

down on before switching on the juice, and then a powerful electric current blitzes through her brain. Electro shock therapy, controversial when Daisy got it, as it is now, probably more so back then, was not nearly as refined as it is now. Now it works very well for some people. I've met some people, some time suck fans actually who based on me talking about it disparagingly in other episodes told me that they had undergone ECT and it helped them tremendously. Not sure it helped Daisy very much though. In the early 50s, ECT was still often administered

in what was called an unmodified form without muscle relaxants. And the seizures it created would often lead to massive convulsions that would crack vertebrae and break bones. Oh my heck, that does not sound pleasant. Also, there was a risk of memory loss or still is feelings of extreme confusion. Basically, you could scramble your fucking noodle. Pretty good. And it seems like it scrambled Daisy's noodle quite a bit. Daisy lets receive it. Very little was known about any of the adverse effects she received six sessions of ACT during which she became pregnant for her fifth time in the fall of 1953 on November 29th.

Not long after her last session, she would have the couple's fifth child, Rosemary Pauline Litz. And a lot of people have speculated that Rosy's noodle got scrambled by the ACT sessions while she was in the womb. Rosy did not get a good start in life. She was born into the home of two seriously mentally ill people. Her father of violent and perverted schizophrenia, her mother suffering from crippling depression, who was now also dealing with

the side effects of ECT, brain fog, memory loss, confusion. Soon after they brought her or soon after they brought her home, it was clear that Rose was different than other children. She rocked violently in her pram, a kind of carriage-driller combo deal. So violently, it would move across the room if the break wasn't on. As she got older, Rose, you know, rocked her head for hours on end. And then as she got older, still her family came to think of her as a bit slow, is how it's written. Their term for states of almost semi-consciousness

that Rose would work herself in due by all this rocky. Her siblings ended up nicknaming her Dozy rosy because of her slowness she is often as you know she was often left on her own spent time with six pet hamsters poor dozy rosy did poorly in school she couldn't even spell the simplest of words at home uh rosy siblings knew that if they didn't do her chores for her she wasn't good at those either uh they were all in for a beating. Her father bill seemed to favor her. She was the only child of his who would escape physical punishment. He would abuse her in other ways.

More on that when it shows up in the timeline. Days he would have two more children despite her struggles. A son, Graham born in 1957 and another son, Gordon born in 1960. Let's now jump back over to Fred West's childhood. John West leaves school in 1957 to join his older brother Fred and work with their father on the farm. That year with John at 14, turning 15 and Fred now 15, turning 16, they start to go to the nearby town of Leadbury on the weekends.

It was the closest big city, a whopping 10,000 people. Reminds me of going to McCall Idaho on a few different weekends when I was a kid driving an hour to cruise around in the big city 3500 people Like McCall ledbury had a cinema unlike McCall. It also had a chip shop a milk bar and a youth club a milk bar Never heard of a milk bar before the little poking around sound like they were very popular in the UK and Australia around this time a few in the States Kind of like a mall shop Like a public milkshakes instead of beer, a teen hangout spot.

Some milk bars also had sandwiches, convenience store stuff too, you know, go get a milkshake, pack a smokes, loaf of bread, all the important stuff. On Ledbury, these two pieces of shit are the very least these two future pieces of shit. Fred and John spent evenings talking to other teens from surrounding communities, smoking at the market house, lounging the cheap seats at the movie theater or Fred liked to catch John Wayne movies. Coming across that info for the first time, I had a weird thought about how evil people

do the same shit as the rest of us. I mean, I mean, of course they do. They just suddenly struck me as odd. Like, odd how you can be watching your favorite movie and that favorite movie could also be some horrific serial killer killers favorite movie. You could be enjoying it after eating dinner, following a normal day at the office. They could be enjoying it while tying someone up in the cellar and why that person's pleading for their life.

Or maybe after that, it'd probably be hard to multitask that situation. Some part of me is always surprised to remember that most of the time even the worst serial killers are not doing evil things. They're doing the same amoral, mundane, average shit the rest of us do. I think they might kill 20 people, but also, one of the days they kill someone, be super irritated at their favorite TV show. It's got canceled, or very frustrated with a sliver. They got fixed in their deck or something. I don't know, it's just weird thought to me.

Moona, Fred started caring about his appearance around this time. He started a shave, comb his hair, put on clean clothes, and then to the surprise of some who met him later, he actually was considered one of the best-looking boys at that youth club. He was a looker. The girls were interested, but not really.

They thought they were at first. He was interested in them. For the most part, they did not care for his personality. Most girls found him crude and a bit ski-y because he was crude and ski-y. He creeped a lot of them out because he was very creepy. Also, not real bright. He was poor and rough around the edges and a lot of kids despite his looks thought of him as a country bumpkin.

But then in late 1958 Fred got cool. He had a lot more desirable, around his 17th birthday. He got a 125cc James motorcycle with a moth painted tank. Fuck yeah bro, nice. He got a couple tattoos on his shoulders. Got a naked drawing of his mom on one shoulder and the words been there. And then on his other shoulder,

we got a naked drawing of his favorite sister and the words done that. Too much, maybe. Of course that was nonsense, but he did get a motorcycle. He wouldn't write it long though. I remember 28th, 1958, Fred's riding his motorcycle just a few hundred feet away from home.

When he runs into a young local girl named Pat Mance who'd been on a bicycle traveling in the opposite direction. Fred is rushed to the hair-offered hospital. The girl lives, no word on how bad she was injured. Some locals would later say Fred ran into her on purpose, considering who he became. I'm gonna buy that. I'm gonna say that probably happened.

The accident left Fred critically injured with a massive head wound. He wouldn't come out of a coma for a full week. He had to have his skull operated on. A steel plate had to be fitted into his head to keep his shattered skull together. His nose was broken. Injuries to his arm would cause him pain for the rest of his life. Now I also permanently walk with a bit of a limp and the crash had just figured his face a bit, putting an end to his days of being the handsomeest boy in town. As Elder Sun would claim, years later that this accident, according to family lore, really did change him. And maybe it did.

I won't go deep into it here because I've discussed studies about the link between head trauma and murder and numerous serial killers episodes before. But many thing having the right kind of head injury specifically to the frontal lobe definitely tilts certain individuals towards murder or more murder makes sense. The frontal lobe, ints certain individuals towards murder or more murder. Makes sense. The frontal lobe, in particular, the orbital and ventral medial prefrontal, prefrontal cortices have a primary role in moral behavior and regulating it, emotionally driving moral decisions, being involved in abnormal moral behavior.

The frontal lobe also regulates impulse control and sexual behavior. Enter the wrong part of it and now you have a very different view of morality and a harder time regulating impulses, including sexual impulses. And since Fred's impulses were not good to begin with, thanks to a very shitty childhood, this could have been what tipped him much further towards the monster he soon became. Weirdly, my dad got into a motorcycle accident. Bad one. He was around 17. I don't want to ask him about it. You know, for this episode, I was going to and I was like, now he'll probably know that I'm going to use details about it for another joke about him, maybe be in a stirrer killer. He's on to me now. But it is almost like my

dad's American Fred West, you know, because he really did get into an accident that gave him a severe head injury. He wasn't wearing a helmet left him in a coma for over a week, not kidding. He looked so bad. Apparently, left him in a coma for over a week, not kidding. He looked so bad apparently that when the first people showed up to the scene, some farmers who lived nearby, they just covered him up with a sheet like they thought he was dead. His scrambled his brain so bad when he finally woke up, he thought he was one of his brothers for a while. And that's probably when he started killing.

I mean, if he does that, if he did that, but you know, come on, where are the bodies, dad? Where are the bodies? That joke still hasn't gotten old to me. Now time for a quick check on Rose. If he did that, but you know, come on. Where are the bodies, dad? Where are the bodies? A joke still hasn't gotten old to me. Now time for a quick check on Rose. Things got difficult in the Let's family in 1960. There was now a rumor going around that Bill Let's, Rose's father had an unhealthy,

interest in children, which became even more amplified when Bill decided to start a rocket roll youth club for local teenagers behind the Kingsley Arms public house. Where local teens gathered to listen to early Bill Haley and Elvis Presley music. Rock and Roll Youth Club for local teenagers behind the Kingsley Arms public house where local teens gathered to listen to early Bill Haley and Elvis Presley music. And the rumors started because Bill did have an unhealthy, interesting children, at least in his own. If he hadn't started molesting Rose yet, she's now seven, he would be soon.

Several documentaries I watch had criminal experts talking about Rose's dad grooming her in pre-pubescence. I'll begin to rape her frequently before she becomes a teenager, saying horrific shit like I made you and I'll do what I want with you. Sounds a lot like Walter West. Just like this Fred and her early childhood rape and incest are normalized by her primary caregiver. By the time she hit puberty Rose, she'll be walking around the house fully nude, flirtatious,

she'll be highly sexualized, be having incestuous relationships with her two brothers in addition to her father. So fucked up, obviously, also mirroring Fred's home environment. Bill's youth club soon shuts down, Bill decides to pack up the family, move to Plymouth where people don't know he's a Pido yet. He'd also found a poorly paying job at the nearby Devon Port Docyards. Things were not good at home. Daisy was on the verge of a second nervous breakdown now, cleaning the house up to four times every day, rose to behaving oddly. She cuts up her bedsheets to make clothing for her dolls. She lies and, cessently, it is a shit show.

Of course it is. Build is literally crazy. He's an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic. He's a violently abusive. He's beaten, daisy, beaten and molesting the children back to Fred West now in the summer of 1960 in Leadbury. After recovering from his motorcycle crash injuries, Fred meets his future first wife, a pretty 16 year old who'd moved down from Scotland named

Catherine Bernadette Castello, known as Rina. Rina was a bit of a delinquent. The first appearance in court had been for theft back in May of 1955 when she was only 11. There have been multiple court appearances between 1955 and 1960. The two meet, they date off and on over the next year or so. Can't find any real details about their initial romantic encounters other than it was hot and heavy. And then they took a break. Not sure why, probably because Fred's psychopath. And the fall of 1960 Fred is hanging out in leadberry at a house party when he makes a pass

that a different young woman standing on the fire escape. Some sources say pass. Some say he grabs her and tries to sexually assault her. I'm going to believe that claim. And then some dude stands up for her, hailing Nimrod and punches Fred in the fucking face so hard. He loses his balance, topples over the railing and falls headfirst onto the concrete below about 10 feet down. Fred got knocked the fuck out. Once again, he ends up in the hospital with a massive head wound. Friends and family notice an immediate personality change when he recovers.

He's become short tempered and irritable. His family wonders if he's now suffered more brain damage. Dude wasn't smart to begin with. Now he's had two serious head wounds in a short period of time. This of course will not be good for anyone in the story. After he recovers in the early spring of 1961, hanging out with his friend Brian Hillen Ledbury, Fred commits his first crime, or at least the first he gets caught for. He steals a couple of cigarette cases in a gold watch strap. Shopkeepers give the boys description to the police.

They're arrested shortly thereafter. Fred makes his first ever court appearance at Ledbury, magistrates court for shoplifting in April. He and his friend, Brian Hill, both plead guilty or find four pounds plus costs. His first criminal charge, the second would come shortly after. And it'll be a lot more serious and indicative of the monster he's becoming. In June of 1961, Fred is arrested on a charge that shocks his family. Yeah, right. They couldn't have been surprised.

He was accused of having sex with a 13 year old girl. He's 19 about to turn 20. A doctor examines a girl to discover she's pregnant. Fred is a belligerent with a police after being charged. During interrogations, it comes out to keep him molesting girls regularly since his early teens and didn't consider his actions, particularly shocking or criminal. He surprised. It's illegal. He actually reported. He said, well, doesn't everyone do it? Like he actually thought this is just how you supposed to live

your life. What the fuck? And thanks to not being real bright to begin with, those head injuries might have been a harder for him than the average bear, to actually truly understand that most families didn't behave like this. Fred is charged with unlawful carnal knowledge of a child. He's briefly kept in a cell while his family arranges bail.

His family was allegedly furious. I'm guessing they were either mad that he got caught or maybe that he was, you know know fucking some kid not related to him who knows what they seem mad maybe to keep up public appearances of not being a family of hillbilly petafiles his mom daisy told me he was no longer welcome home super mad he cheated on her and uh... with great bitterness Fred goes to live with his mom sister violates

and her husband earnie at daisy cottage and much more call another named place daisy cottage probably hated living with his aunt uncle sucks here Violets and her husband Ernie at Daisy Cottage and much Markle another named place Daisy Cottage Probably hated living with his aunt and uncle sucks here. No fucks anybody. He's not me My aunt and uncle. Can you keep leave us? They got mad at me Well, I got naked one night and tried crawling to bed with them. What a crazy world we live in Uh, the 13-year-old girl has an abortion Fred's case is set for trial in November Equities job with the farm starts up with, beginning a lifetime's work of odd jobs. He wasn't a good builder, but he wasn't the worst. He doesn't quit his bad habits.

He soon arrested again for stealing pieces of hardware from a building side. One woman claims that it was during this time that Fred raped her twice. She was 14. One can only imagine how many girls he raped who just never reported the crime. He also reported that he got a younger sister pregnant around this time, when she was 13, she would have an abortion and got one of his sister's 13 year old friends pregnant. Fred appears in court in Herifordshire

on November 9th, 1961 for the rape of a 13 year old girl. The girl that had the abortion we mentioned earlier, Fred's prepared defense. How sad is that? That I have to like point out which 13 year old girl he's on trial for raping, because there's so many. Fred's prepared defense. How sad is that? That I have to like point out which 13-year-old girl he's on trial for raping because there's so many. Fred's prepared defense was that his two accidents had given him brain damage. True.

The strategy would not be necessary though. The 13-year-old girl declined to be a witness at the last minute and the case sadly fell apart. And Fred walked free. He did at least suffer some consequences. He was no longer welcome at home, brought, you know, public shame to the family. I find that so ridiculous, like they're, they're mad at him. And then now 20 year old Fred has to, who has no education is a convicted thief, why they

believe to be a mentally unstable child molester has to try and make it on his own. He becomes an outcast around this time. Things not go much better for Rose. After two years of living in Plymouth, Father Bill packs up and moves the family again, first to stratford upon Avon. Pretty sure somebody famous is from there. I can't remember who. Then the family moved to Cheltenham, where Bill worked for a defense contractor named Smith Industries.

There he makes more money than he made previously, working as an electronics engineer on flight simulators. I don't know how the, well, I guess he had the Navy experience. And I do know what famous person is from Stratford upon anyone. It's William Shakespeare. I know. I think he wrote some plays or something. You can stop yelling about how dumb I am now.

Actually, he wrote some of the most famous plays of all time, right? I know. Yeah, you know, I've read him. Romeo and Julie, Mick Bill, King Deer, the Tempter, Piglet, Mid-Summer Night's Weddream, O'Gello, the murder of Venice Beach, much to do about something or other. J.K., gosh dang. The money was good with Bill's new job, but Bill also found it very stressful, and he Mid-seller night's wet dream. O'Gello, the murder of Venice Beach. Much to do about something or other. Jake, hey, Josh, dang. The money was good with Bill's new job,

but Bill also found it very stressful, and he didn't handle stress well. The violence at home now worse than ever. One wrong word, you know, from his family, would spring Bill into abusive psychotic action. His children would later remember him doing shit like chasing him around with knives, once with an axe.

What fun childhood memories? Hey, hey, remember that time that dad chased it around with a butcher's knife? Oh, yeah, forgot about that. I was just happy he didn't grab the axe, you know, the axe. I mean, that really scared me. That's my new who's serious when you grab the axe. Bill seemed to light and finding new ways to punish his family. He would do shit like punch his son Andrew and the stomach,

knocking the wind out of him, then lock him in the cold shed, or he'd beat his son Graham's head against the wall. You know, just fun, dad stuff. He'd lock the door precisely at the time the children were supposed to be home and he would make the late ones sleep outside the entire night. He would regularly turn off the electricity and gas on winter evenings. He would surround himself with all the heaters. All his children were sitting the cold.

And of course, he's beaten his wife Daisy still. He's blessed in his daughters. Other family members would later recall some of his insanity when Daisy sister once came to stay with him. She slept in the living room and then Bill took the living room fucking door off his hinges told her to not get too comfortable. When his own father came to live with him, Bill apparently hit the now elderly man repeatedly and we're just punches to add accus him of own Bill money that he didn't know.

Unmedicated paranoid schizophrenia manifested a man rotten to the core. Too bad someone didn't ever kill that sick fuck and put it into the misery his family had to endure. Rose, meanwhile, is struggling at school. She didn't have social skills, was not intelligent. Had also become overweight. She was being teased by the other children.

She would react with aggression. By the age of 13, she's getting fights regularly with her classmates. Rose also became very sexually percusious around the age of 13 and doledging and exhibitionism. Graham Rose's younger brother later leds at Rose and molested him when Rose is around 14 and he was 10. Rose later told investigators that she lost her virginity by around the age of 13 by the time she was sneaking or by that time she was also sneaking into pubs having sex with older men. She probably lost her virginity, you know, even younger than 13. Unlike Fred, she was initially not keen on disclosing her

childhood of continual sexual trauma to investigators. A lot of details about her childhood came from other family members, from interviews with Rose by criminologists and recent years long after she'd been in prison for life. You know, like Fred had lost his virginity to his mom. Rose likely lost her virginity to her dad. Just, oh my god, let's see what Fred's up to, 1962. During that summer, he reconciled with his parents, not sure what was said there. So in a moment, I know I should have fucked those kids

outside of our own family, of course. That's the Westway. I've learned my lesson, the outside world, I don't know what act that I'm trying to do. The outside world, they just don't understand us. I need to protect the family's privacy a little better. But since I try to do it, I don't know what accident I'm trying to do. The outside world, they just don't understand us. I need to protect the fam's privacy a little better. Since I try to do an Australian accident, now it's fucked up, my shitty British accent. He started living at Morecourt College again, runs back into Rina Castello,

who's working as a waitress at a nearby cafe. They get hot and heavy again. Rina gets attacked too on a right forearm that reads Rina, John, true love. And it's company by a heart with two arrows. Now 16 Rina's gotten in more trouble with the law. She's also now pregnant with a child, not Fred's. It doesn't care. They get married. Fred and Reena married in November 17th 1962 at the Leadbury Registrar office. Their only guest is John Fred's disgusting brother. It seems as if John, well, we don't know a lot about him, was just as monstrous as his brother. Super raping, molestie and insetuous as we'll learn later.

The newlyweds moved to Scotland into a small flat on hospital street, Coatbridge, at that time a grimy industrial town and their marriage is trouble from the beginning. Of course it is. One thing, Fred's sexual appetite is insatiable and he demands it whenever he wants, even if Reena is like washing up, peeling potatoes, whatever, it's often quick and brutal. Reena often cries, Fred doesn't care. He apparently takes pleasure in pinching her. All he has sex with her, what the fuck? What a weird detail.

That was not something she asked for, wanted. She wasn't into, you know, some moderately violent BDSM where she was a submissive. She was just married to a sexual status who liked to hurt her during sex. Aggressive pinching, not something I am even remotely interested in giving or receiving during sex or any other time. Fred abused Reena on a regular basis,

slapping around when she refused. Basically any demand of his or if his dinner wasn't ready on time and it seems Fred may have also pushed her into prostitution. May have been her idea. She had dabbled in prostitution before. She now goes back into it full time, while pregnant. Some sources say this angered Fred, who simply acted more violent towards

her now in response. Others say he was the one who pushed her to do it. Those are the stories, I believe. He'll later get off on watching Rose have sex with clients. He likely enjoyed this with Reno as well. On March 22nd, 1963, Reena gives birth to a baby girl. The girl she'd been pregnant with when she and Fred had gotten married. Rina wrote to his mom, Daisy West, Fred's mom, and said that she had miscarried and that he decided to adopt a little girl to take their baby's place. Why would she do this? Well, she lied to Fred's mom in this way because the baby was mixed race.

And knew that his mom would be disgusted because Fred's parents were super racist. The West's super-ncessuous dumb and racist quality family quality family friend and named the girl sharmane carol may marry uh... friends family doesn't buy the adoption story for a while rena lives with sharmane alone in a flat in the british neighborhood of glass go reds also upset with her he's not such a tabernot she had another man's baby

he's upset the baby wasn't white because these are fucking classy people. The separation doesn't last long and by Christmas they have reconciled. And then, this is a detail I did not expect. In this crazy story, Fred gets a job driving a Mr. Whippy ice cream van. Mr. Whippy ice cream van is still being driven around England. Yes. This sexual psychopath is now a fucking ice cream truck driver. What a nightmare. Hey there, little nippers, what are we having today? Want some soft serve? Or do you like it hard? You like it hard, don't ya? All those little nippers like it hard. That's what

me day taught me. Who wants an ice cream sandwich? Who wants a friend west sandwich? You'll be the meat you will. Come on, let's have some fun. Not a good summer day if you don't get pregnant. I guess fucking believe this guy actually drove an ice cream truck. I think it's crazy with the ice cream truck. Ice cream truck's gonna come back around soon. It's gonna be even more absurd. Reena gives birth again in July 1964 to a baby girl that was undoubtedly Fred's with the same striking blue eyes.

They named the girl Annemarie. Both Annemarie and Charmaine sleep in the bottom of a bunk bed in which Fred puts slats across the space between the bunks, panting the children in like animals. Fred was at home during the day he insisted that the girls be kept in their kid cages and he only be let out when he was at work. I mean I get it. He has to deal with screaming, ice cream happy kids all day work. And then he has to come home to more kids, right? Who wants to bring work home? He just didn't want to, you know, bring work into his home life.

I'm off the clock with the fucking kids and cages already. Around this time, Fred begins having various several affairs, various affairs. That was redundant, various several, including one with 21 year old girl who worked in a factory bodily mineral water. That girl got pregnant, gave birth to a son, she named Steven. Meanwhile, another girlfriend gives birth to a son named Garith, dude, dude, who was a big fan of sticking his dick into whatever hole he could fit it in with no real thought to

consequences. Not a big fan of, you know, wrapping it up. Reena knew he was being unfaithful, so was she. She was also having a fair. She started seeing a bus driver named John McLaughlin. She's fucking the ice cream truck guy and the bus driver. Probably has her eyes on the garbage truck driver too. She loves a good truck fuck.

Things are going really well for the young couple. 1965 things, you know, get worse. Fred runs over a four year old boy in his ice cream treat ice cream truck and kills him. But the definitely did not expect that detail. An angry crowd gathers around the scene of the scene of the crime accusing Fred of reckless driving. Dude broke the most important rule of ice cream truck driving. Don't run over the kids. Even more important than the second most important rule of ice cream truck driving. Don't run over the kids. Even more important than the second most important rule of ice cream truck driving. Don't fuck the kids. You probably broke that rule too. I can't believe he actually ran a kid over and killed his kid in an ice cream truck.

Get your soft safe, Frank F. Talk to your talks, awful cones. Don't don't don't don't really don't really don't really don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't Oh, little fella! Mine the tires! Get yourself safe! Trip accounts, netcones! Mine the tires! The fuck is going on in the story! Uh, even weirder, according to a few sources, I- That's what they say, I find it crazy. Apparently fatal accidents involving children and ice cream trucks were relatively common.

And it's not funny, it's just over the day, it's in Glasgow at this time. And Fred is released from the police station with no charges because they couldn't prove it wasn't the kid's fault. What the fuck was going on? Back in Glasgow around this time, just, you know, just running kids down in ice cream trucks on the reg. Despite not getting a legal trouble, Fred apparently doesn't like to stay in his reputation, doesn't like, you know, the way people are looking at him.

Yeah, you run over one kid in an ice cream truck, van, whatever ice cream man, people fucking mean mugging you. He takes his family to much marker back home. Most of them, he leaves Rina alone in Glasgow. They would soon reunite. Fred and children would return to Scotland, continue with his unstable relationship with Reena. They live in a caravan now in RV where Fred and Reena share the main bedroom and the children sleep in a tiny room next to their parents. Excuse me. At some point, they added two young women who lived with them and slept wherever they could find a spot to lay down when Fred was not fucking them. Fred now has a little harem.

The ice cream truck murder now has a harem of women, Rina not ecstatic about this. Soon she calls John McLaughlin, right that bus driver, asked him to come pick her up. On the appointed day, Fred returns home unexpectedly, and there's an all-out brawl. Ice cream truck driver, versus a bus driver.

Let's get ready to rumble! Tonight in the much more go community center auditorium, we have the showdowns to end all showdowns. Must-driving wife-fucker John McLaughlin takes on the double brain damage, former Mr. Whippy child killing incestuous ice-cream truck driver Frederick West. The Scottish school bus brawler versus the much-markle maniac. Two men fighting for the right to keep entering one vagina. We'll sell you the whole seat, but you'll only need the edge. This event is brought to you by Whipple!

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Uh, wow. If you're new listener, I bet that was a bit jarring. Uh, go back in episode to full understand the power of Whipple if you need to. Anyway, during this bust driver, I used to ice cream truck driver showed on that was fun for me uh... for eventually took the girl sharmain and anna marie as hostages and would not let her go uh... not let them go strike both girls are renal leaves of john now for it is left with

the two children and the uh... two young women in the caravan one of these women six-year-old anemic fall becomes twenty four-year-old threads primary lever now lucky lady One of these women, six-year-old Anna McFall becomes 24-year-old Fred's primary lover now. Lucky lady! Fred put his two children in foster homes occasionally reuniting with them before setting them off again because he either didn't understand how traumatic that would be to children or didn't care. Anna McFall continued being his lover and for the next several years, Reena would come back and forth between John McLaughlin's house and Fred's.

In spring 1967, Fred gets Anna McFall pregnant. Of course he does does Fred gets everyone pregnant He's he's very potent and it tries to convince him to divorce Rina and marry her Which Fred does not want to do then in the final weeks of her pregnancy in July of 1967 Anemic fall goes missing and is never found not alive anyways Fred would deny murdering her after being caught for other killings in 1994, but he for sure murdered her Anne was likely his first murder victim, almost certainly. I'm going to say certainly. He'd later discussed Anna's murder in private prison visits, telling one prison visitor straight up that he stabbed Anna to death. And then when Anna's remains were finally discovered, there was a long length of cord wrapped

around her wrist and her corpse had been dismembered. Investigators would find that a considerable number of Anna's hand in foot bones, or absent from a grave, and this matches what Fred would do to the corpses of other women. We know he killed later. He would usually remove their fingers and feet to make it much harder to identify their remains. The skeleton of Fred and Anna's unborn child was found nestled beside her. So really, this is his first two murders. Further incriminating, Fred, Anna and the baby's unmarked grave

was less than a mile from Morecourt Cottage, Fred's childhood home, where it wouldn't be discovered for 27 years. After his disappearance, Fred moves his RV to a caravan site in the village of Bishops Cleve, almost exactly 30 miles from much marker. Future wife and killer Rose Letz

was then a 13 year old girl living just a half mile away on Toby Field Road. Reno now moves back in with him. They take the children out of foster care, lives a family for a year. Fred gets work as a labor at old acres mill, a flower, an animal feed manufacturer. During this time that a 15 year old girl named Mary Bastholm goes missing while she's waiting at a bus stop. Mary was waitress at the pop in cafe. A cafe Fred frequented at that time. Her remains have never been found in an all likelihood

based on her age. Looks when aware she disappeared. Very likely Fred's second victim or again, I guess I should say third victim on February 6, 1968. Fred's mother Daisy dies following complications after surgery to remove a gallstone at the age of 44. Good ridden speedo. Get out of here. Following her death Fred commits a serious a thefts move from job to job. He becomes a delivery driver for a village bakery and it's while he's working at that bakery that he will meet Rose Let's check in now with Rose.

And the spring of 1969 at the Let's House at the Let House. Now 15 year old Rose's mom Daisy decides that she needs to leave her husband bill. She brings 15 year old Rose with her two younger sons, goes to live with her daughter, Glenis, who lived with her boyfriend, a car mechanic named Jim Tyler, and her new home Rose stops attending school. Instead, she looks after Glenis, Glenis, a snack caravan. I've never seen that first name before. Interesting. A general later state that on several occasions when he'd come back to restock the caravan

He would see Rose getting out of a car or clothing to shoveled clearly having just had sex with a man much older than her Many of these men she's having sex with work men traveling salesmen again. She's been so highly sexualized by her father's abuse Daisy Letz would then move her children again a few months later in the summer of 1969 to a chicken farm in the village of Tottington. After a few months living there, Rose announces that she's going to go back and live with her father. There will be speculation within the family that she had gone back to her abuser because she didn't see it as abuse. She saw it as normal. If you missed her dad, including missing him sexually, self-fucked up. Daisy Letz unable to support her children by herself also moves back in with Bill a few weeks later. Sometime at the end of 1969,

still 15 year old Rose finds regular work at a T-shop. And while she's waiting at the bus stop to go to work one day and other August or September, she meets a man with wild curly hair and bushy sideburns, Fred West. The two timelines have now united, the killer and the future killer, now together. Before we delve into their twist of relationship, this seems like the best spot, at least disrupt

a spot in the timeline for today's sponsor break. Thanks for listening to this week's sponsors. Back to the beginning now, Fred and Rose's, Fred and Rose West's relationship. After meeting the teenager, the now 27-year-old Fred showers rose with attention and gifts that were probably stolen. It was the first time that rose that ever been properly courted, if you could call it that. Rose was openly flirtatious and highly sexual. Didn't mind when Fred spoke plainly about sex or came onto her. He of course reminded her on so many levels of her father of the kind of man she was used to. He told that he had two young children that his wife had abandoned the family

and Rose who loved children, liked Fred even more now. Rose became a frequent visitor to Fred's caravan, hanging out with the two little girls. It's also meant she started skipping out on work. So Fred would give her a few shillings a week for Rose to give to her mom. Soon Rose brings Fred home to her parents house, Bill and Daisy didn't care for her Fred.

Bill tells his daughter that Fred is a liar and a dirty gypsy, quote unquote. What's her dad jealous? I have to think so. Shortly after this, Rose's parents discovered that Rose is spending all her time with Caravan and Bill orders her to stop seeing Fred. She of course does not listen. Soon in addition, having frequent sex with Fred, Rose began seeing sexual clients at his caravan. It was a match made in heaven. Fred was used to dating women who also worked as sex workers. He liked it and rose. She liked being a sex worker from all accounts. Near the end of the summer of 1969, Rose after being reported as runaway teen by her dad, taken to a home for troubled teens and nearby Cheltenham. She was only allowed

to visit her parents or go to work in theory and was kept on a strict curfew. But when Rose said she was going to see her parents, you would just go see Fred and Rose also started sending Fred love letters. The strange mix their relationship early on, a very childlike young teenage love on Rose's part mixed with a very adult, highly sexual relationship. Meanwhile, when he's not fucking teens or doing God knows what else, Fred's getting into more legal trouble around this time. On August 23rd, 1969, he's reported for failing to produce documents for his car. He's warned about some unpaid fines from June, and then he's going to go to prison if he doesn't pay them.

Five days later, he appears at Cheltenham, uh, magistrate's court charged with the theft of fence parcels from one of his employers. A couple weeks later, he's given 30 days in jail for failing to pay his fines. He will spend his time at her majesty's prison, Gl Gloucester or Gloucester, a grim fortress like build on the western side of the city. Fred children again put into foster care. He's poor kids. They did not hit the familial lottery. On November 29th, 1969, Rose turned 16, staking all her keepers award.

She immediately leaves the Chilton home. Her parents now give her an ultimatum. If she sees Fred again, they will disown her. But if she stops seeing him and finds a job, she can stay with her family. So extra fucked up since her dad's motivations here are not parental, my mind clearly. A few weeks later Rose comes downstairs with her bags packed and announces her decision to leave the home and she makes her way to Fred's caravan. Sometime over the next few months, Fred gets his kids back out of foster care again and

the four began to live as a family. The children will go back and forth between Fred's caravan and foster care several times in the first half of 1970. Reena shows up at some point, demands that she take her girls with her, but her life isn't stable enough to keep them. June of 1970, Fred finds a house for his family in the city of Gloucester, the place where they would live for the next 24 years. Talk a little about Gloucester now, Fred and Rose, move to the big city, at least big

for them. Gloucester is a small city with a population of under 100,000 when they moved there, approximately a hundred miles west of London, roughly 2,000 years old. It was first established as a Roman fort in the first century CE. Much, much later in the mid-19th, in the mid and late 19th century, Gloucester booms under the reign of Queen Victoria with the expansion of the railway, building of the canal system, engagement of the docks. Hundreds of brick houses are built to accommodate new residents.

The new middle class developments include buildings on Midland Road and Cromwell Street, the two streets Fred and Rose would live on. By the time the West arrived, Gloucester is in decline, having decreased in population when after World War II, many of his residents leave for the suburbs. The West first live at 25 Midland Road

in a large semi-detached concrete building divided into three flats. Rose and Fred move into the ground floor. Fred went to work as a fitter for Cotswold tires. The job didn't pay much and soon he resorts to petty theft again to make rent. He later works for his landlord doing odd jobs. On October 17th, 1970, Rose gives birth to the couples first child together, a child named Heather Ann and poor Heather Ann.

Her tale unsurprisingly will be a sad one. Just as Rose starts acclimating to life with three children, Fred gets arrested for stealing tires from his old job, jailed for nine months. Rose is now 17, living alone in the city where she has no family. No, no family is worth a shit anyways. No is no one. Rose is not handled her isolation very well. She takes her frustration with life out on her children, smashing bulls over their heads, beating them with wooden spoons, binding them with leather belts, sometimes tying them to their beds.

The flat they're living in is filthy, covered with children's clothes, soiled nappies, toys, dirty plates, nightmare. On March 28th, 1971, Rose takes Charmaine to Gloucester, Shire Royal Hospital. Charmaine was eight, doctors find that she has an ugly puncture wound in her left ankle, under how that happened. Rose was reportedly especially cruel to Charmaine was eight doctors find that she has an ugly puncture wound in her left ankle under how that happened. Rose was reportedly especially cruel to Charmaine. Was this wound to punishment that had gone too far or an accident? Authorities would never know social services are not called. The the kids from Fred and Rose West would actually go to the ER during their childhoods a cumulative total of over 30 times for various abuse injuries.

Eh, on May 7th 1971 Rose takes a children to visit Fred at Layhill Prison where Fred presents his wife with a painting he'd made in a cell. No gifts for the kids, but he gives his wife a painting of Rose naked, kneeling in front of a burning sunset. Wonder how many times he jerked off to that painting. 100,000. Uh, this gets another visit for June 15th and just a few days after that second visit, Charmaine goes missing. The girls usually walk to St. James Junior School together, but the morning she disappears, Rose kept her behind. And those she would never admit to it, to authorities as such, Rose would certainly,

or almost certainly, murdered her. Her first kill is her stepdaughter. Bed up with a little girl who went to bed at night and dreamed of being rescued by her mother Rina. Some of her other surviving children were later report that they were positive Rose killed Charmaine. Rose told anyone who asked that Charmaine's real mother Rina had come to get Charmaine and the school believed her. Fred is released from prison June 24th 1971. Rose reportedly told him about Charmaine and Fred got to work dumping her body which Rose had stashed in the cellar. He carried the corpse of the stairs, dug a grave in the yard near the back door of the

flat. After his later arrest, 1994, Fred would tell authorities that he couldn't bring himself to this member, Charmaine, because she was so young and pure. I wonder, what a nice guy, what a real sweetheart. So while Rose never admitted to killing Charmaine, Fred revealed that, you know, basically she did or basically revealed that she did. Years later, act on information from Fred authorities will find her grave. Despite now officially being partners in a terrible crime, the pressure of worrying about getting caught for murdering a child is too much for Rose, and she and Fred briefly separate.

She brings baby Heather with her back to her parents house. Bill will not let her in. Later, Fred appears to the house, tells Rose, come on on Rosie, you know, we've got between us. Then he tells Rose that if she doesn't come back within 10 minutes, her place in his bed is going to be taken by another woman. What a romantic! Look baby, you know, I love you. I want you. Why is so bad? You're my soul mate. But if you're not back at the house in like 10 minutes, I'm going to smash some strange points on our bed, you know, life is short. You know what you got to do if you're not back at the house in like 10 minutes, I'm gonna smash some strange posts on our bed, you know? Life is short, you know what I do, what you gotta do.

Rose takes him up on the offer. Once back at the West Flat Rose becomes a full-time prostitute, a gig Fred enjoyed because he literally drilled a hole in the wall so he could watch her with her clients. Fred would apparently complain if Rose wasn't loud and enthusiastic enough for their clients. You know, he would be mad. And while he was a wave, she had sex decline,

he would make her talk to him about it in great detail. It was kinky. Sex would just rose or just anyone was not stimulated enough for him. He and Rose soon began trying out three sums, variety of sex toys, playing with some BDSM. How into all of this was rose. I think largely because of her childhood,

she was really into it. She did not have any sexual boundaries, it seems. Also, while some sources make her seem passive in all this, others assert that, and more recent sources assert that, according to the court testimony of some later would-be victims who were raped by Fred and Rose, but not murdered and the testimony from some of them who didn't come out forward with their testimony until after Rose's trial, she was the lustful leader in all of this. She was the one pushing things forward

and seemed to them like she was the sadistic alpha in their fucked up relationship. Perhaps it went back and forth. I will say I have to look at a lot of sources. Rose does not come across as an adult victim, at least not outside of her father. She comes across as every bit as Twitter and horrific as Fred, if not maybe a little bit more so.

And not really that surprising. She's raised an equally horrific household. While Fred and Rose are really enjoying their incredibly adventurous sex life, their life is far from stress-free. At the moment, they're pretty worried about Reena, who's now been coming around more and more often, wondering where the fuck her daughter, Charmaine is. In August, Reena goes to Fred's family home of more court cottage, asked for's father or asked Fred's father Walter to help her find Charmaine. No word on whether or not that piece of shit did help. A short time later, Fred agrees to take Rina to find Charmaine. But first, he wants to take her out to a pub.

Let's have some drinks. To get there, he loads her up on drink after drink after drink. Pretty soon, she's good and hammered. And when she's unable to stand up straight on her own, he walks you to his car and then strangles her to death. Murder number three or access, I guess four for Fred, murder number five between them both. He then takes her body back to his house where he dismembered her, cutting her off her legs at the hip, removes her kneecaps and a total of 35 finger and toe bones.

Then he buries her at a place called letterbox field just a few hundred yards away from the jolly old family west home at more court cottage. Sadly because of all the dysfunction in her life, broken family, almost non-existent stable social circle. No one ever seriously looks for rena or disappearance is never seriously investigated. Fred gets away with another killing. In November of 1971, a young single mother named Elizabeth Egeus moves into the house adjacent to Fred and Rose. Elizabeth quickly made friends with their new neighbors, not knowing they were harboring a secret sexual attraction to her, not knowing that at first at least.

Of course they were. These two wanted to fuck just everything. Elizabeth was surprised by how frank the two were about the romantic arrangement. They openly said they weren't married but had children together and that they slept with other people. Wink, wink, hint, hint, Elizabeth. One time when Fred and Rose were getting back home in the early hours of the morning, they surprised Elizabeth by just straight up telling her that they had been, quote, driving around looking for young girls. They were looking. They said for girls between 15 and 17 who could pass for virgins and live with the West while they became her pimps.

They just straight up told her neighbor this, lives with the shocked. So yeah, I thought they were joking. They were not. Imagine your neighbors telling you that, all right? Like your neighbors get home late. You happen to be outside, see him? Oh, late nights. You two do anything fun.

Ha ha. Try to. Uh, trolled for teen plus for hours to hoard them out, you know, but you know, they say, Pimpin ain't easy. So we're gonna call it a night. Look for some young strange to fuck some other nights, you know, live another day for Fox. A few months later, Elizabeth is in the kitchen with Rose when Rose straight up tells her

that Fred and she want to have a three-sem with her. Elizabeth is shocked and then further shocked when Rose tells her all about her clients and shows her special pills. She said, prevented STDs. They did not believe the West picked up multiple STDs over the years, including syphilis. Elizabeth's continued visiting the West after this makes me wonder if she was at least thinking about having a threesome with them after hearing all this. Then one visit she's given a cup of tea. Shortly after drinking the tea, she begins to feel drowsy. She passes out when she wakes up.

She is in bed with Fred and Rose who are both naked. They've just had a three-some one that she never consented to. Rose goes out of her way now to tell her that Fred has just fucked her while she was unconscious. And then the couple who helps get her dressed, she's still drowsy and they take her and her baby son home. Yes, there's a baby son nearby for all of this Elizabeth had been terribly assaulted. Yes, she was also lucky. She narrowly escaped being murdered. Many others would not be so fortunate Elizabeth's story would not become public knowledge until Fred and Rose or caught for murders over two decades later

Elizabeth did speak to police right after it happened. Said she would not testify trial due to fear her husband would leave her if he found out. So tragic. Sad she was worried, you know, and married to a man who would, she feared would leave her for being raped and sad that the West got away with, you know, more than bullshit. Rosen, Fred officially tied the knots 1972. Do you forget they were not technically married i did uh... they hit upon january twenty nine nineteen seventy two at the glossary register office finally no more living in

a time these two dirt bag clean up the rags and of course they don't clean up shit uh... the two now decide that the need of house large enough to raise a big family and also of course have a separate area for prostitution. Wasn't long before Fred found exactly what they were looking for. 25 Cromwell Street. It's a short distance from where they already lived. This address will become so infamous in Britain, after they are later arrested, it will be bulldozed. And no structure will be built in this place. Shortly after they move, Elizabeth pays them a visit for reasons that are never made clear.

Why did you check out the new home with the people who had previously raped her? I wish I knew. Fred shows her their, their new seller, which he says he's thinking about using as a special area for Rose's clients. Then he adds, quote, I can soundproof it and uses my torture chamber. Wink, wink. Fun. I'm sure Elizabeth is super happy with her decision to go check things out and feels super

safe around Fred. As her rapist explains how he's going to turn his new seller into a proper fuck dungeon. To help pay the bills that their new home, the West start taking in lodgers now, lodgers that rose occasionally will slip into bed next to and try to have sex with in the middle of the night. Just another fun little rapy sex game. The West like to play. Oh, whoops. Oh, man. Oh, sorry about this. You're awake. How did my naked pussy sneak in here?

Gosh, I've got such a rascally pus. I was hoping to keep sleeping in bed with my hubby, but all rascal plus down here wanted to hop in your bed and play a game of hide that dick. Oh, my heck, rascal plus. You're a real scandal twat. Also, shortly after they move in, an illegitimate son of Fred's from Scotland, Steven, we mentioned him briefly earlier comes to live with them for a while.

Wonder what he thought of this place. Amazing to me. How many kids just show up show up in this suck to in and out. This these two had zero interest in birth control. I wouldn't be surprised if Fred had hundreds of illegitimate kids running around in England. In June of 1972, Rose gives birth to a second child, a baby girl named Mae, just what his family needs, another kid in the home. One day during the summer of 1972, Rose and Fred let Fred's eight year old daughter, Anna Marie.

The girl he had was his first wife, Reena, the baby mama of his that he murdered. They lead her down into the cellar. The space Fred has described as his torture chamber and Fred tells his daughter this day that he's going to quote, help her. He's going to do his duty as a father on the floor as a bowl, some class of vibrator and tape. Fucking what? Annamarie starts to cries Rose removes her clothes. Rose then proceeds to sit on Annamarie's face while Fred binds his daughter's hands, prized her legs apart, then he rapes his daughter while Rose both watches and engages. Rose says that if Anna Marie ever speaks about what has happened, she will get a hitting. Also says that what they did was normal. There's no reason to be upset. It happens in all kinds

of families. It's all part of growing up. Sadly, she was sadly correct about part of that because we know similar shit went down in both her own family and in friends Instead of denouncing it these former victims enthusiastically embrace it They make the transition from victim to perpetrator with gusto The story is so fucking ridiculous a little while later Fred brings home a long metal bar bent in the u-shape fit with handles Rose then tells Anna Marie to go tied you up to seller when she gets down there. She's trapped to the frame Rose whips her Fred comes down rapes her again Rose leaves Anna Marie downstairs for a while while Fred then leaves and then they let her have a bath and then they pour salt into the water.

Saying there's good for why do they really pour salt into the water because they're fucking psychopaths and they're just torturing their daughter. This is now a regular part of young Anna Marie's life. It was the West way. November 1972, Fred and Rose are driving through the outskirts of Tukesbury, little town just 10 miles outside of Gloucester. I love that name.

Oh, Tukesbury, sounds so British. When they see a teenage girl hiking on the side of the road, her name is Carolyn Owens, Caroline Owens, just 17. She regularly hitchhiked to see her boyfriend. When she got into West car, Caroline thought she was getting a ride with a respectable married couple and was enthusiastic when they proposed that she come live with them as they're living in any. Back at their house, she will share a room with Anna Marie.

And quickly, she notices that something is, you know, off about the couple. Rose strokes her hair a lot, often accidentally barges in on her, all she's taking to bath. Oh, whoops! How'd I get in here and see you naked again? Fred talks about sex constantly in front of Caroline claims that he performs abortions as well. I don't know how the fuck you worked that into a conversation. It's not weird at all. Oh, so Caroline, how are things going with the kids?

I'm good. I think you're doing a great job. Watch them. Really do. Oh, and how's your sex life? Good. Okay, good. Good. My mind is great. a great job. Watch them, really do. Oh, and how's your sex life? Good, okay, good, good. My mind is great, so much fucking.

So much. And the best part is if I get anyone pregnant, they don't have to go to a clinic. No, no, no, I just, no, I do it myself. I never did well in school, couple of head injuries, but I do know my way around a coat hanger. Anywho, who wants some bangers for supper? I'm Craven Bangers.

Many nights Caroline spends in the house, ends with the lodgers bringing back girlfriends, engaging in some kind of sexual free-for-all, after there's orgies going on at the house this time, after a while Caroline persists a pace in a few. She was curious, they'd worn her down. And then finally creeped out by her new lover's Fred and Rose. She didn't exactly say what line they finally crossed.

She decides to leave the job and leave the house after a few weeks. Uh, Fred and Rose, not happy to see their teen lover go. So as one does, they can coax a plan to abduct Caroline and they put it into place on December 6th, 1972. Excuse me, they wait for the time they knew she would be leaving her boyfriend's house, then they pull up and offer her a lift. Caroline accepts the head and left on the worst of terms and she climbs into the back seat. Rose then slips into the back seat as well. Starts coming or coming on to Caroline immediately, smiling flirtatiously, put an arm over Caroline's

shoulder. Fred starts asking her if she wants to have a three way. Rose begins touching Caroline's breast and face. Caroline tries pushing her away. She wants out of the car. That's not going to happen soon. Fred has driven her to a deserted muddy field. They won't let her out of the car. Fred turns around, calls her a bitch, starts punching her, keeps punching her until

she blacks out. When Caroline comes to, she's still in the backseat of the car, but now she's tied up. Her arms are tied behind her back. There's a piece of tape over her mouth. They're driving again, not good. The car soon pulls up to excuse me, 25 cromwell. Late in the evening, they carry their former nanny inside, layered out on a mattress, and violently sexually assault her. Fred Beecher with the buckle end of his leather belt, he threatens to kill her, saying, I'll keep you in the cellar and let my friends have you, and when we're finished, we'll kill you and bury you under the paving stones of Gloucester. He said it like he had done this exact thing before.

Then in the morning, Fred tells Caroline, he's so sorry. And then it all been Rose's idea. He asked Caroline for forgiveness and Want to know if she wouldn't mind coming back and working for them as their nanny His head is so messed up Again to go back to no sexual boundaries and his literally brain damage head There's a good chance. He didn't think he'd cross the line with her. It couldn't be forgiven I mean sure he kidnapped and beat her and rape her but he'd also been nice and he liked her. So why can't they still be friends? He's fucking

insane. Caroline knows she'll only live if she says, yeah, no problem. All's forgiven. So she does. And she helps clean up the house, plays a little bit with Anna-Morian Heather, has a hot bath. And then when no one's paying attention, quietly gets the fuck out of there. Smart meat sack, playing it cool, doing some acting just to save her, you know, to keep to stay alive. Back at her mom's house, Caroline is hesitant to confess what has happened, but her mom sees the bruising on her face, calls the police, detectives, now go to Cromwell Street, interview Rose, when Detective Kevin Pierce, a price asked Rose if the allegations are true, she replies, don't be fucking daft. What do you think I am? They search the car,

find a button from Caroline's coat, as well as a roll of brown tape. Fred and Rose are then arrested. And then once interrogated by authorities, they openly admit to sexually assaulting Caroline. Now they're going to get in so much trouble, right? No. Caroline does not want to give evidence in court. Crippling the prosecution's case against the West, Caroline's case is still heard though on Friday, January 12, 1973.

Fred now 31, Rose only 19. She just found out she was pregnant again. The two were charged with indecent assault causing bodily harm. The defense claims that Caroline had practically asked to have sex for trades the West as sympathetic young couple with several children. The magistrates don't think that Fred has it and it need be so violent, nor does Rose, and they're fine. 25 pounds each, and they get to go free. Shortly after this, Caroline is so upset by the decision she attempts to take her own life

and thankfully is not successful. Holy shit, they just admitted to sexual assault and they get a small fine. Rather than have this be a lesson to Fred and Rose, you know, this merely encourages them to take things further. They've abducted beaten, raped a teenage girl and just been fined. This doesn't exactly put a real fear of the criminal justice system into them. They did think after this might be as better just to murder girls. They rape, you know, rather than let them go and risk them, you know, ratting them out

later. It's inconvenient. Just three months later, a young seamstress named Linda Gow disappears on April 19, 1973, two weeks before her 20th birthday. Her mother remembered her, remembered seeing her, who out for drinks a couple weeks before, the woman who looked a little overweight in actuality, the woman was five months, five months pregnant,

and the woman was Rose West. For a second, when I first read this, I was surprised that she'd be out grabbing pints all five months pregnant, but then I remembered, this was Rose West we're talking about. Of course she was drinking. To be fair to Rose, I guess, doctors didn't link alcohol to fetal alcohol syndrome

until 1973, right around the time this happened. Not that she would have read that literature and be like, oh, okay, I guess I gotta change my ways. I gotta protect her kids more. Like the delinda went willingly to Fred and Rose's flats may have even willingly had sex with them, but then Fred murdered her, buried her in a concrete hole in the garage. And then almost certainly decapitated her. Likely, murder number six collectively for the West.

A few weeks after her daughter disappeared, Linda's mother June was asking about her whereabouts around town. When she recognized Rose West as the woman her daughter had gone out for drinks with. The first Rose said she didn't know anything about Linda, but then June noticed that Rose was wearing Linda's slippers awkward. She also noticed several items of Linda's clothing on the West washing line outside their home. When June pointed all this out, then Rose was like, oh yeah, oh yeah, that's right. I do remember.

We did have drinks. We hung out for a while and then you know my husband killed her. Now she was like, yeah, then she right. I do remember, we did have drinks. We hung out for a while and then, you know, my husband killed her. Now, she was like, yeah, then she left. Don't know where she went, hope you find her. Initially, June believed Rose. She was the same age as her daughter. She didn't seem like anyone who would be a killer.

It would be 21 years before June would discover the truth about what happened to her daughter. Four months later, in August of 1973, 19 year old murderer Rose West gives birth to a son. Steven, another kid for the hell house. Now let's talk about Carol Ann Cooper. Carol was 15 in November of 1973, a girl going through a normal adolescent rough patch. Her parents have recently separated.

She'd been in a place in foster care at Pine's children's home. She was dealing with a, you know, a lot of shit. On November 10th, Carol and her boyfriend went to the movies. Around 9 p.m. Carol's Carol and her boyfriend went to the movies. Around 9pm, Carol's boyfriend dropped her off at the bus stop. Carol was headed to see her grandmother for the weekend. At 9.15, her boyfriend saw the bus pull away. It was the last time anyone would report seeing Carol alive. Once again, Fred and Rose picked up the hitchhiking girl, then bound her with tape and cords. She was likely sexually tortured, based on later,

forensic examination of her bones, and eventually killed. Then Fred disembrored Carol's body, removing her legs at the hip and cutting off her head, and then he buried her in the torture cellar. Likely West murder victim number seven. Where were the kids in all this? Sadly, they met a lot of the victims. They heard their parents raping them,

they may have even heard them being murdered, but they didn't know for sure that had been murdered. Even if they had, there was no way they were going to risk telling anyone and getting killed themselves. Carol's disappearance was suspicious. She'd run away before, but investigators pointed out that she'd run away again. She wouldn't have left all of her possessions behind. She was registered as a missing person and West,

Mercier, police investigated but turned up no leads. Another girl would go missing shortly thereafter. Lucy Partington was an upper middle-class girl. Her father was an industrial chemist. Her mom was an architect. In 1973, she was 21, finishing her final year at Exeter University, where she was studying medieval English. She had recently converted to Roman Catholicism and spent Christmas at her mother's house in the village of Gretton near Cheltenham. On the morning of December 27th, 1973, Lucy got up, went to Cheltenham with her brother. He split up, Lucy went to visit a friend where she wrote a letter

applying to postgraduate course at London's Courtaul Institute. She borrowed a stamp from her friend, left the house at about 10, 15 pm to go to the bus stop. Before she left, her friend's father offered to give her a ride home. Lucy said if she missed the bus, she'd come back and take that ride. She never came back. And like with Carol, no one ever saw her again. Red and Rose picked her up and took her to the cellar at their house, highly unlikely based on accounts of anyone who knew her that she went willingly to the West House for some sort of sexual adventure. Odds are for Fred and Rose lured her into their car under other pretenses.

Rose would become a master manipulator by this point. It'd become an expert in getting girls to let their guards down around her. I mean, these girls were, you know, roughly her age. She was also a mother of young children. She spoke in a soft voice. She didn't look threatening. She dressed like your average housewife. She's gotten really good at being the bait for Fred and Rose.

Investigators later speculated based on a confession from Fred and some limited forensic evidence that Fred and Rose kept Lucy tied up in the basement for seven days. Ah, after that, Fred used a cheap stainless steel kitchen knife to dismember Lucy and accidentally cut himself badly in the process. Sadly, not badly enough to die or something. Like the others, he decapitated her and removed other parts before dumping her body in a shoddy grave. Victim number eight.

Lucy was reported as missing person and an extensive search for her began. The no one thought she was the kind of girl who would run away. But sadly with no good leads, police would not turn up anything that would lead them to 25 Cromwell Street. More victims quickly followed in the early 70s, the height of their murder spree by far. Teresa Sikinthaler was born in a small town in Switzerland. In 1974, she was a 21-year-old sociology student at the Woolwich College of Further Education in London. In April of 1974, Teresa attended a party in Depford, South London. I think I said Teresa earlier if I didn't Teresa.

The next day, she set out to hitchhike in North Wales, intending to catch a ferry to Ireland to meet with the priest who she wanted to speak to, talked to about South African politics is what they wanted to discuss. Couldn't they had a phrase that very simple since. Once again, she'd never make it Fred and Rose picked her up. Once again, Fred dismembered her, took some of her bones, including her collarbone. Number nine, again, highly doubt she was heading out for a sex campaign based on what her plans were and those who knew her.

She was tricked into getting in that car like the previous victim. No one thought Teresa was someone who would run away. Police searched for her, but didn't know she'd gone missing in London or in Ireland. And again, you know, they had nothing to point towards. There was nothing that pointed towards 25 Cromwell Street. On November 14th, 1974, 15 year old Shirley Lloyd is getting ready to take a bus back home from work after a date. She described in sources as a strikingly attractive girl who had, like Carol Ann Cooper,

spent much of her life in foster care. Unlike Carol, she'd been adopted by a council workman named Jim Hubbard and his wife. Shirley met her boyfriend after her shift at the deepen-ham's makeup counter for a date. Two bought a bag of fries, watch the boats go by on the river and then at 930 Shirley got on a bus. For whatever reason, they are even cooler with Shirley than they had been with previous victims. So often the case with killers, they keep upping the fucked up ante the longer they kill.

Fred and Rose wrapped tape around her head 11 or 12 times, covering it completely and sort of plastic tube into her nose so she can still breathe some kind of fucked up, you know, hardcore BDSM sensory deprivation shit, but torture like with the others surely is killed and dismembered. She's likely sexually tortured for a period of possibly several days before being killed, victim number 10 or seller now resting place for four corpses. Still the police have no leads and it's not likely they will have, they will, you know, would have seen 25 crombo places, a place where these girls met their ends.

For one thing, many kids, you know, many lodgers are living there. So unusual for killers to rape, torture, and kill in a home with multiple children living in it, a home right in the middle of town, a home with borders coming and going. These lodgers will sometimes complain about banging and crashing in the cellar-related night, but it wouldn't be for 20 years that they will know the source of these

sounds. Imagine being one of those borders and putting those pieces together decades later, right? Man, that would haunt me. On April 11th, 1975, Juanita Mott disappears while hitchhiking to babysitter friends, kids, while the friend attends wedding. Juanita had actually been a lodger at 25crown wallet one time. She'd been one of those borders. Before going on to live with other families, like with someone the other's now Fred and Rose would pick her up, take her to the cellar, torture her, and kill her.

This time they suspend her body from the ceiling and torture her using some new equipment that installed just for that purpose. This was their favorite sexual game now. They tried everything else. They'd had sex with other people, you sex toys, played with bondage, had three sums, had orgies, had sex with paying customers, had sex with their own children, had sex with

strangers that abducted and raped and then let go. And now their sexual thrill, their favorite one is to abduct strangers, take them to the seller that they turn into a raped dungeon, torture them for days before killing them, during what I have to imagine is a sexual act. All right, there are rumors that the tapes have never been found or at least not publicly torture them for days before killing them during what I have to imagine is a sexual act. Right. There are rumors that the tapes have never been found or at least not publicly reported as being found that they filmed some of these torture and murder sessions that they literally made snuff films to watch and get off to later.

Some reason why need is never reported is missing. So her connection with 25 Cromwell is never investigated. Victim number 11. The only thing interesting going on at 25 Chrome, well according to the neighbors, this time is a massive construction project that Fred is undertaking to demolish the garage and build an extension. Part of the reason he's building this extension is to cover up some of the bodies. And the spring of 1976, to make some extra cash for these renovations, Fred travels to

Cumbria to work for British gas. When Fred returns, he and Rose get to work refining their system of finding vulnerable young women and how fucking evil is this. Why don't you think they've hit the bottom? Nope. There's further to go. There was a nearby children's home for delinquent girls named Jordan's Brooks House, Jordan's Brookhouse, where because of the strict rules, girls often ran away. Usually this would involve pulling a fire alarm. All the girls would flee at once, only to be collected, penniless and worn out a couple of hours later. It's how it is described. Fred figures this out. He starts to cruise around the home and his Ford Transit offering lifts to

any girls that come his way. Like some kind of fucked up sadistic human fisherman trolling for girls in a new fishing home. Well earlier, I said that because of their upbringing, they may have not understood sexual acts as being blatantly morally wrong. I don't think that applies to these murders. They weren't raised in murder houses. As warped and twisted as they were, I think they clearly knew that what they're doing now is horrific. Instead of simply taking these runaways back to his house and murdering them, he and Rose start to form friendships, inviting them back for, you know, snacks, listening to

the problems. And this feels even more evil to me than attacking them right away. Why did they do this? Because they knew the girls, if they were friendly to them, would go back to the group home and tell the other girls there about the nice people they'd met with a cozy home, which of course would lead to more potential torture and murder prospects. One visitor to the home remembers being surprised at how many children were living there. Fred and Rose now had four kids related to them that they were

caring for. Anna Marie, 12, Heather kids related to them that they were caring for. Anna Marie, 12, Heather, five, May, four, Steven, three, and now they are also foster parents. Seriously, how maddening must that be to hear to the many great people trying to get registered as foster parents today? I know based on some friends going through the process that it can be really hard,

apparently the bar much lower back in the 70s and Britain. Clearly, it didn't check the fucking seller when making sure that this was a good home for foster kids. Okay, home check almost complete. Let's just have a look around the seller. Looks like you have some very large metal dildos slain about. I know you'll be putting those away before the foster children arrive. Excellent. And what about these metal shackles chained to the wall for someone's hands and feet? Will you be shackling the children to the cellar wall? No?

Okay, excellent. What about all this duct tape and rope and knives? Is that an X? Okay, and that X, and that electric saw, laying next to that giant fist dildo and that the enormous, well, looks like an anal stretching device. Will you make sure to keep those sexual torture and murder tools away from the children. You will. Okay, excellent.

Well, I see no problems then. Okay, the kids will be here tomorrow. So please quickly get to put it all this way. If you're coming up with their new system, Fred and Rose West, rape and molest and untold number of teen and preteen foster kids. Sometimes the girls came around and then there's the girls from the group home. Who knows how many of those girls, they're molesting and raping, possibly murdering. Sometimes these girls come around long enough to establish a solid relationship. Fred and Rose

make advances. She's beginning with Rose, who's now 23 coming on to them before bringing Fred into the mix. And if the girls don't come around to flirting, they're often raped. Sometimes these two sex craze lunatics get away with raping numerous girls at once, usually introducing bondage, whips, other means of causing pain. The girls in foster care then feel like they can't trust anyone. After all, they thought the West were good people that were there, you know, they were their friends. So these assaults go unreported. Many of these stories don't come out until after the trial. Meanwhile, as Anna Marie progresses to puberty, the abuse she suffers at the hands of her father and stepmother get worse and worse or gets worse and worse.

She's prevented from having access to tampons or sanitary napkins, just for no other reason, other than just, you know, fucking shamer torture. She's forced to bathe in scalded in water. She's once used by rose and the West children as some kind of painting canvas with rose painting the words black hole on her butt with an arrow pointing down

Well, the fuck No more explanation given for that just to peek into the insanity of the West household Other times anemory is beaten with a stick locked in the cellar. She's once stabbed in the arm Fred also makes a chastity belt with a vibrator in it for anemory Eventually anemory begins having trouble at school of course she does She's expelled for acting out Eventually, Annemarie begins having trouble at school. Of course she does. She's expelled for acting out. By the age of 12, she's also,

by her parents, forced into prostitution. Rose first made her have sex with one of her customers. Shortly after that, she'll take Annemarie to nightclubs where they'll drink Malibu and Cokes and pick up men's together. Raising her the Westway, oh God. What? Who's this? Coming into the suckway. Oh God What who's this coming into the sucked engine?

But a visitor Bye-bye play boy. Bye-bye Fred and Rose West what a couple sexual fest Bring a Johnson to home with the kids I think those head injuries really loose a fresh lid My less than your own daughter what kind of mother what kind of father? They make your child proud too like you do and did Didn't think these two dirty birds take things any father

Murder kidnapping and sex torture and you paint by your daughter Man, I love for the West you take it out for slaughter Can't wait for these two to get put away for life. That's the husband that's the wife Slow painful death that's the punishment for which I'll be praying But it won't seem like punishment enough you feel me you dig you hear what I'm saying All right, thanks chicken Joe It won't seem like punishment enough. You feel me? You dig? You hear what I'm saying? I don't know how to lie. Oh, all right. Thanks, chicken Joe. I haven't seen chicken Joe in a long time.

Long time. Old time, so character. What chicken Joe just said, it was a chicken Joe speak for. Even a pit, sexual trafficker finds these sexual lives and crimes of the West to be so despicable, they should definitely be put to death and a painful death. All right. 1976, the horrific sexual debauchery continues.

There's a steady stream of young female lodgers at 25 Cromwell, most of young women who work in local shops and factories. One of them is named Shirley Robinson. She'd been working as a prostitute when she met Rose into age of 18, Shirley moves into 25 Cromwell. She's bisexual, she's open to having sex

with both Fred and Rose, becomes a sort of girlfriend. Meanwhile, the abuse of Anna Marie gets even more horrible and perverted, not sure if Shirley knew about the abuse or not, but looking at the total picture here, I'm gonna say she probably did, for people who got away with what they got away with for so long, they didn't seem to work real hard. It keep on in a secret.

Sometimes when Rose had sex with a client, Rose took the condom and the man had been wearing and would give it to Fred who would then try and use the man's semen to inseminate Anna Marie. Why do this? Because according to one of the investigators who worked on these murder cases, Fred was just quote, pure evil. Anamory thankfully would not become pregnant via the humiliating abuse.

Rose becomes pregnant again though via one of her West Indian johns this time. And surely becomes pregnant by Fred. So much pregnancy in the sock. Of course there is so much unprot the suck, of course there is. So much unprotected fucking. During the two pregnancies, Rose becomes more erratic, eccentric, she's wearing maternity dresses without underwear or sitting on the back steps of the house

with the legs wide open and her skirt pulled up, putting on little show for the neighbors. I didn't see in your neighbor do that, just flash in that rascal plus for the world to see. She also gets more volatile, screams at the children more often while she's initially excited about being pregnant along with Shirley. Rose soon becomes soon becomes jealous. Then Shirley starts telling people that Fred is going to marry her and Rose not happy.

Rose gives birth to a baby girl in December 9th, 1977. The couple names the baby Tara, despite being happy with their new baby. The atmosphere of the West home is one of considerable tension and impending violence. Rose more and more openly antagonistic towards Shirley now, whose own babies do on June 11, 1978, then on May 9, 78, Shirley Robinson and her baby disappear. Fred and Rose's seller was already full of human remains. So Fred now digs a hole in the back garden. He hacks the corpse into pieces, removes the head.

Her baby skeleton will be found nestled beside her remains years later. Nobody reported her to the police. Fred and Rose told her other lodgers that Shirley had gone to Germany to live with her father. Just like that, Fred and Rose get away with two more murders, victims 12 and 13 in 1978. Perhaps just for fun, perhaps to help pay the bills, Rose begins to advertise her sexual services now in magazines. Typical ad, red, sexy housewife likes it rough. Like BDSM, want to take things further, let's meet up. We can fuck a topic graveyard. I've built with my husband. Want to be tortured and killed and added to the bones we've already buried? This rascal plus is ready to rumble!

That was exactly what she wrote. Her ads weren't quite that brazen. One ad said, sexy housewife needs it, deep and hard from VWE, which means very well endowed. VWE male wall husband watches. And then there where it's not mine,

colors welcome. In between killings, they just can't get enough sex never get the feeling that money is the primary motivation with roses sex work i think uh... you know just just truly insatiable as fret if he could have gotten women to pay him for sex i think he would have absolutely done so and constantly

roses customers were known to her children as mom and dad's good friends okay there was a special doorbell for customers to use the family many many of the lodgers, and it would know what was going on when that doorbell would ring. Rose didn't discriminate when it came to paying customers, age, race, weight, overall appearance, whoever didn't matter to her. Many things more interesting. One of her regulars had a wooden leg, another had a glass eye, and while this is going on, still running the foster family. Rose has yet another child of around in november seventeenth nineteen seventy eight is why not bring another innocent human being to this mess girls named Louise meanwhile friends continue to rape daughter animator

basis tell her shit like i made you your my flesh and blood i'm entitled to touch you is just like a father walter and like roses father bill nineteen seventy nine for it gets an emery pregnant and rose brings her to a hospital to get an abortion. Even though, you know, I thought, I thought he was a guy who could do that at the Gloucester Shire Royal Hospital on May 24th, 1979, Bill Lett, Rose's dad and perennial father of the year candidate dies after contracting plural messo, thelioma, as long as they're filled

up with cancers, tumors, and he dies at the age of 60 good riddans glad it was painful Thank God one of these pieces of shit finally dies in the suck That I mentioned that some sources of ledges of all rose was living on Cromwell Street with Fred as a young adult her father would still swing by from time to time to have sex with her Yep, that's how fucked up these these families are as wife Daisy didn't mourn him for long She would later say I always felt my husband was a weak character actually. Ha, weak. By weak, do you mean incestuous and rapy? Rose scandalized her family by arriving for the burial in Tartee Clothes and Black Celetto heels.

Based on what a perv or dad was, I bet he approved. On August 5th, 1979, four weeks before her 17th birthday, future victim Allison Chambers packs up her things and flees from Jordan's brook house. It was the eighth time in nine months that she tried to run away. Allison was an unhappy young girl who coped with her life as a ward of social services by retreating into poetry and painting. She was often bullied, was not well liked by other children in Jordan's brook house.

A few weeks before she left, she started telling her peers about an older man that she was in love with. The man was in love with her too, she said, and gave her gifts, including jewelry. Nobody believed her. So Allison packed up and left. From her new living situation, Allison wrote to her mother that she lived with a very homely family. I look after their five children and do some of their housework. They have a child the same age as me who accepts me as a big sister, and we get on great. The family owns flats, and I share that I share with the older sister. Within a few days of arriving at 25 Cromwell Street, she had probably already begun a sexual relationship with both Fred and Rose, and then the sex soon became frightening. And then one day before she turned 17, the West gagged her with a purple belt, raped her,

tortured her, and killed her. She was dismembered, buried in the garden, next to the wall of the recently built extension. Victim number 14. Meanwhile, eldest child, Annamarie is now 15 and terrified. She's worried something extra terrible is going to happen to her when she turned 16. She isn't sure what it's going to be, but she knows she doesn't want to wait and see. She's already endured a lifetime of sadistic abuse.

It's time to get the fuck out. So 15-year-old Annamarie leaves home and goes to live with some friends. Thank God somebody gets out. June of 1980 rose gives birth to another baby. Yay. A boy named Barry. They were now effectively two groups of children on Cromwell Street. The older ones who've been fathered by red and the younger ones, some of whom were the children of roses clients. The oldest child was Heather who turned 10 the autumn of 1980. There was eight year old May. There was Steven seven and then the younger children. Fred and Rose need a complete control over their children to make sure their secrets didn't get out. So the children were kept away from

adults, banned from playing out in the street and didn't visit relatives. School friends were not allowed to visit 25 Cromwell and the children were not allowed to visit their friends' houses. Instead, they had chores. The age of seven rose made them do their own laundry from age of 10 and to feed themselves. Rose told them they didn't deserve presents at Christmas. It was just a terrible life all the way around. Now with Anna Marie gone, Fred sexual insesuous attentions turned 10 year old Heather, the next oldest child and also to eight year old mate. Rose gives birth in 1982 to another kid. So wheat,

rosemary, junior. No child she has with a client. She and Fred only know because a child is not white. Meanwhile, 12 year old Heather is becoming more nervous shy with drawn in the eyes of her teachers. She previously been studious, but now she seems to have given up. She really doesn't like the company of boys or men. She takes up smoking, begins to drink. She's living in hell. Fred and Rose this time for some reason because she didn't like having her dad, rape her, I'm guessing, become convinced

that Heather is a lesbian and they are furious about it. Even though Rose herself identifies as bisexual, what a weird thing for these two maniacs to get mad at. I mean, they really do live in their own reality. A British criminologist and a doc I watched talked about how hard this story is to understand for most people because most of us have somewhat normal brains and have had relatively normal childhoods and we just can't relate on almost any level to these two psychopaths in the

way they live their lives. Their childhoods were so fucked up and then their adulthoods more fucked up and then they got low IQs, possible brain damage, likely brain damage with Fred, and what the same criminologist called Folly Adoo or shared madness for two, and you get two people living a very peculiar reality that is hard for anyone else to inhabit. They live by their own rules,

they just made up as they went along, just fucking madness, two maniacs, pushing each other further and further into madness. Rose gives birth to another baby, another mixed race daughter in July 1983 named Luciana her eighth child She's now 29 years old and after the birth doctors finally fucking sterilized her thank God She would later try to have the operation reversed and we get pregnant briefly, but thank God have a miscarriage Around the age of 30 Rose becomes more violent towards the children now. When her eldest Heather sneaks into her room,

take some of her porn magazines to school, you don't take mom's porn. Rose thinks it's Steven, and she brings him into the bathroom, undresses him, binds his hands with wires before tying him with the toilets and beating the shit out of him. Several of the kids try to run away around this time, but they don't have the resources to last long

in the outside world. They come back when they do come back to inevitably beaten. Heather now wants to find a job that will support her in time for her 16th birthday. She's also worried about turning 16. She started studying for eight certificate of secondary education, CSE exams, trying to get a job. In 1985, Anna Marie marries her boyfriend, Chris Davis, and the two move into a house on the white city estate in Gloucester. Thank God she's still out. In the summer of 1986, Heather

sits for her CSE exams. In the last week of exams, she breaks her silence about what's happening to her at 25 Cromwell to her friend Denise Harrison, telling her friend everything, you know, about Fred having sex with her, all the stuff, but her friend does not go to authorities, and sadly, no one comes to her eight. By her 16th birthday in October, she still hasn't found a job. And on May 29th, 1997, she registers for unemployment at the Department of Social Security while continuing to apply for jobs. Uh, Heather is rejected for yet another job in June of 1987.

And she starts spending days in bed now, very depressed. And one day, uh, when it's raining and most of the kids are off to school she gets an argument with their parents. It turns into a physical fight. Fred possibly tries to sexually assault his daughter, it spirals out of control. Either Fred or Rose put their hands around Heather's throat and they strangle her and it seems Rose stomped on her. Her brother Barry who turned who was seven around this time later claims she saw mom stamp

on Heather's head five times and she didn't move again. He said, my God. Rosen, Fred's firstborn, first born child is now dead at their hands. Victim number 15, Fred disposes of the corpse, the capitating his daughters, you know, taking off her head just as he had done with others. He puts her remains into a black trash bag stashes it in the dustbin under the stairs when the kids come home from school. He tells on the dustbin is full of old plaster. He then tells the kids that Heather had left home to work at a summer camp. The the jobs she had just been rejected from. He then asked the kids to help him dig a hole in the garden saying he's thinking of installing a pond. Steven helps his dad dig this hole in a few days later. Notice that it's filled in. I thought it was supposed to be a pond. Steven writes it off as Fred having changed his mind about the pond later realizes

that he had just helped bury his own sister. That's not going to fuck you up. Uh, over the following weeks, a couple people asked the west where Heather had gone and Rose gives conflicting accounts. Meanwhile, Fred paves the back garden with several dozen square slabs. After all this work, Fred and Rose celebrate with the barbecue dinner. Hmm. Later the kids would make a sick family joke about how if you misbehaved, you would end up two down and three across.

This is in reference to Heather's dead body being under the pavers in the garden at two down and three across. In the summer of 1987, shortly after Heather's murder, Fred decides to convert the seller into bedrooms. The fuck dungeon days are over. He's 46, I guess he just had his fill.

You know, seller torture. The remodel gives him an excuse to properly seal away the bodies of the five young women who are buried there. Once the renovations are finished, it seems like life starts to get better for the remaining children. The ones they hadn't murdered. They may be regret killing Heather. Is that possible? Do they finally feel like they've taken things a bit too far? It should be better parents. You know, the kids now have a new living quarters as a bathroom, lounge area, television, snack bar. Start pinning, you know, school drawings, the walls, moving their toys down there. How sweet are Fred and Rose becoming decent parents now? Of course not. The purpose for this was to cordon off the adult world upstairs and just forced the kids down. So the children were now sent down to the seller almost all the

time, given strict instructions, never to go upstairs, not even if the door is open. The first floor is now transformed into a sex den for rows and her customers, a garish looking lounge with a fully stocked bar. These people are so ridiculous. We have come across plenty of sex craze killers before, but maybe never encountered anyone as sex craze is Fred and Rose West.

I mean, maybe the truck stop killer, but maybe even old incubus wasn't quite this horny. By autumn of 1988, Fred has turned the six sexual focus. He previously centered on Anna Marie and Heather to his daughter, May now, right? She'd already been molesting her, but now she is the center of his attention. She's 16. He's furious that she often rejects his advances. During this time, all photographs of Heather are removed from the house. Fred often tells the children that he'd seen Heather on the street somewhere. I mean, we saw her picking up a dude or, you know, some women engaged in some kind of CD work.

I used to give the impression that she's still alive, that they're ashamed of her. How dare she run away and do exactly what her mom does here. Four years later now, in March, 28th, 1992, something good happens. Walter West dies at 77 years old. Fred West dad is fucking dead. So wait. Another architect of all this madness is in the ground. Shame that he lives so long though. Maybe quince is then only around the time of his father's death. The secret life of Fred and Rose West starts to unravel around this time. A 13 year old girl tells her best friends

of school that she'd been abused by the West and raped by Fred outside of their daughter. Heather. It's possible they hadn't killed 1979 now, 13 years, but they were still abducting and raping. And of course, they may have also just killed women that they just never confessed to, whose remains were never found. Anyways, this girl tells her friend, Fred Rape and their friend goes to a neighborhood police officer, Constable in the UK, and an investigation into the West is launched, headed up by Hazel Norma Savage. Interesting person, worth exploring just a bit.

Hazel first entered the Criminal Investigation Department's CID in 1968. When it was rare to find a woman in this department, she became a detective, constable, considerable achievement. And by the time she started investigating the West, she had already been part of several major investigations, and Hazel remembered the West, she had already been part of several major investigations and Hazel remembered the West. Around Christmas 1966, she had been sent to Glasgow to collect and bring back to Gloucester, a young woman named Rina West, who was due to stand trial for some burglaries.

As they drove, Rina confided in Hazel about the abuse she had suffered at the hands of Fred. Rina told Hazel that she was worried about the children and Fred's new girlfriend, Rose. Hazel got to lay eyes on Fred himself a few weeks later when he appeared as a witness at Reena's trial, and Hazel would never forget his face. And you know, and then Reena disappeared. She found that very suspicious. So Hazel now makes a routine check to see if Fred and Rose had any criminal history. It turns up they had been jointly convicted of assault in a young woman in 1973.

Fred also, of course, had numerous other convictions mostly for theft. But on the morning of Thursday, August 6, 1992, police arrived at 25 Cromwell with a warrant to search for evidence of child abuse, including pornography. And they hit the mother-load. They recover items including five dildos, a box of dildo heads, rubber underwear, a rice flail, more of a torture device than a sex toy. Looks kind of like nunchucks, a whip, various buckles and straps and 99 pornographic videos, both homemade and commercial.

The homemade part came from Fred and Rose secretly recording her having sex with Johns, not the rumored snuff films at 905 at 905 AM that morning. Rose is arrested for aiding and abetting the rape of a young girl and for obstructing the police at two 15 in the afternoon. Fred would also be arrested and interrogated. Hazel then began interview friends and family of the West, and the first person she talks to was Anna Marie, now the mother of two daughters. Anna Marie's horrific story emerges in a series of private interviews with Hazel Savage. She also talks about her half sister, Charmaine, and her biological mother, Rena.

Anna Marie told Hazel, I've been trying to trace her for years. Chris Davis, Annamarie's husband, suggested Hazel talk to Heather. She would know more than anyone he said, but she had disappeared just like Reena. Not only does Hazel now have evidence of child abuse, she also knows that three people connected to the family are missing. All five of Fred and Rosa's youngest children are now taken into the care of social services, Hale Hazel. Fred briefly appears in court the following day, August 7th, where he's charged and

remanded to Gloucester Prison, where he'd been held actually once before back in 1969. On August 11th, 1992, Rose is arrested again after being briefly released on her own reconnaissance for a new charge of indecent assault. At this point, Hazel puts it to her bluntly, where is Heather? Rose Demier is saying, she doesn't know where Heather is. They haven't been in contact. She says, he has no idea why no one reported Heather missing.

And that's weird, you know, you're right, Detective. Now that I think about it, I probably should have reported my daughter missing. God, I guess I just slipped my mind, you know, busy week. Speaking with Hazel Rose, Changes her story a few times, first saying that Heather had left while she was going out grocery shopping Then saying she's in Heather getting to a mini Cooper driven by another woman

She even gave this bizarre explanation for why she hadn't bothered to look for Heather She said I can remember now why I didn't pursue Heather because things pointed to Heather being a lesbian This is even more ridiculous than when I said a moment ago Rose said she didn't want her other children being exposed to Heather's sexuality. Okay. She also discussed Charmaine saying at one point that Charmaine's mother had come to pick her up. After all this bullshit, Rose is kept in police custody overnight, granted bail on the

condition she just not communicate with her younger children, Annamarie or Fred. 150 a.m. August 13th 1992, Rose is taken by her son, Stephen now, to Gloucester, Shire Royal Hospital where she has her stomach pumped. She had tried to kill herself by taking some pills. Unfortunately, she was not successful. Rose has kept the Gloucester jail where he is a Rule 43 prisoner, according to the system that separates sex offenders from the general prison population. We'll often try to hurt them.

He described in prisons being timid and frightened. And when his son, Stephen, comes to see him, he says, I've done something really bad. I've done it at night when you were asleep. He doesn't give any further explanation. Maybe he's referring to all the murders, maybe just to Heather's murder. Rose was now living alone on Cromwell Street

where money is tight. She takes a cleaning job at the Gloucestershire College of Art and Technology. She writes, Fred, Long, Rambling, Affectionate Letters. She comforts herself by eating chocolate eclairs and watching children's movies like hook and snow white in the seven dwarfs. So weird to think about her relaxing to those movies and enjoying them. I would have pictured her relaxing to stuff like natural born killers and science of the lambs.

September still awaiting this trial, Fred has moved to Carpenter House Basil Hostel, or I'm sorry, Carpenter House Bail Hostel in Birmingham. In autumn of 1992, one of the West children in care tells a social worker that Fred had threatened them with violence that they ever talked about what went on in the house. Fred said that they would be killed and buried under the patio just like their sister Heather.

Some reason the social worker does not report this to the police. Eh? March of 1993, Fred has transferred to another hostel in Birmingham, another Bail Hostel, it another hostel in Birmingham, another bail hostel is called in Birmingham, Wilford House, then to another unsupervised hostel in Holy Road where there's an 11 p.m. to 6 a.m. curfew. Rose is not permitted to see him under the conditions of her bail, but she goes anyway,

brings him sandwiches, brings a two-man tent on the train with her to Birmingham. Upon arriving, they pitch the tent and they have intense sexual relations. Of course they do, they live to fuck, fucking his life, at least two demented horn dogs. Fred would later claim that he murdered a woman in Birmingham sometime during this period. No evidence to suggest he did, but also highly unlikely he simply stopped killing

after murdering Heather in 1997. On Monday, June 7th, 1993, Fred appears at the Gloucester Crown Court, where he's charged with three counts of rape, one count of buggery and cruelty to a child rose a charge with an encouraging and inciting him to have sex with uh... the thirteen year old girl and with cruelty once again the young girl doesn't testify god he keeps happening over and over with drawing moments before she's supposed to speak the west are declared not guilty and fredden rose head home the chrome most after all this.

For he is a couple of fucking dirty and sestuous birds, the case collapses, but it had done something important. It brought the mystery of Heather West's disappearance to light and hazel savage, not given up. Back on Kromelstreet, Fred and Rose are not reunited with their children. Thank God they live alone and they become increasingly paranoid as the days we're on. Hard up for money, Fred gets another job. He doesn't like it, but he has to take what he can get, and he gets another job working

as a Mr. Whippy ice cream truck driver again. Get your knee-apologian sauce, have, get your share back, get my finger in your butt, just kidding, get ease. That's not my finger, you have minced a little nippers. Don't don't. Sorry, keep mind the wheels. Everyone mind the wheels. Uh, he does not thankfully get a job as an ice cream truck driver again. Uh, early 1994 one of the West children in custody of social services again says they can't talk about what their parents did to them because Fred will fucking kill them and bury them under the patio like Heather. Uh, this thankfully this time gets passed along to Hazel who sets about trying to get another

search warrant for the West property. On February 23rd, 1994, the warrant is approved allowing police to really thoroughly search 25 Cromwell for the remains of Heather West. A prospect of searching immediately presents problems. They have no idea where she might be buried under the patio. So digging up the garden and digging up the garden will be extremely expensive in a track local press. But you know, they push forward. Fred leaves the house early the next day, February 24th. So it is Rose that opens the door to see a police fan with four officers pulling up to 25

crumbwell. They present her with the warrant. And the first day of digging, they sadly do not retrieve anything, but they keep digging. As the officers dig up the gardens, Steven and Rose call Fred's mobile phone over and over again. They know what's down there. Fred later marches down to the police station to Claire, say he didn't murder his daughter, and this reads as a wee bit suspicious since he hadn't been accused of this yet. By the end of February, articles appear in the Gloucester press about human remains being

uncovered under the garden at 25 Cromwell Street. On the morning of March 1st, the Daily Mirror prints two short articles about Fred West under the headline, Dad Faces Death Case. So now, of course, he has been arrested. Charles was murdered. After finding Heather's remains in February between March 5th and 8th, please find six additional bodies of young females at 25 Cromwell. Each victim had been extensively mutilated.

Each body bore evidence of having been subjected to extreme sexual abuse prior to the act of murder. The front page of the March 27th issue of the Sunday mirror reports that the remains already recovered were incomplete. Many bones were missing, especially from feet and hands. Roes is brought before magistrates on April 21st, 1994 and charged with sexual abuse of a child, not charged with murder yet. Following day, she was, she is refused bail and transferred to Puckle Church prison to be held in the maximum security wing. Here she's questioned more closely about the murders in particular. The murder of her daughter, Heather and Linda Gow and on April 25th, she is now formally

charged with murder. Rose is charged with the murder of Linda and Heather. On May 6th, Fred's charged. Fred and Rose are now jointly charged with five counts of murder with Rose, simply replying. I'm innocent as well as the murders of the victims exhumed from Cromwell Street. Fred confesses to the murders of Reena and Charmaine and to knowing the location of Ann McFaul's remains. The 16 year old pregnant with his child, he killed back before he met Rose in 1967.

Fred agrees to identify each burial location in the remains are unearthed between April 10th and June 7th. At a further, remained appearance, held at Gloucester, magistrates court. On December 13th, 1994, Fred and Rose see each other for the final time. On this occasion, Rose briefly glances at Fred, stares isely, then turns away, literally turns her back to him, completely ignoring for the remainder of the hearing, informing two female prison officers to tell Fred, she never wishes to speak to him again. Why did she turn away from the man she claimed to love? The speculation is that she initially thought

that he could somehow take all the blame for the murders that she would be able to go free, and when that didn't happen, she felt betrayed, by the love of her life, and the love of her life was now dead to her. This proves really how fucking to her core. She just cares about no one but herself. Fred as evil as he was did seem to at least deeply care for her.

He apparently was devastated by her turning away from him. On January 1st, 1995, while awaiting trial now, Fred hangs himself in his prison cell by wrapping an improvised rope he constructed from a blanket and tags he'd stolen from prison laundry backs. Before dying he claimed he committed up to 30 murders and total authorities feel like he killed at least 13. Good ridden to this piece of shit. He instructed that his suicide notes was to be read to the following music so I will carry out his wishes here. To Rose West, Steve and May. Well-roads at your birthday on 29 November 1994, you'll

be 41 and still beautiful, and still lovely, and I love you. You will always be in love. The most wonderful thing in my life was when I met you. Our love is special to us. So love, keep your promises to me. You know what they are. Where we put together forever and ever is up to you. We loved Heather. Both of us. I would love Charmaine to be with Heather and Rina. You'll always be Mrs. West all over the world. That is important to me and to you.

I haven't got you a present, but all I have is my life. I will give it to you, my darling. When you are ready, come to to me I'll be waiting for you. Obviously you didn't pick that music that note was all him though. Following your Fred's younger brother John will also hang himself in the garage of his Gloucester home and do not feel sorry for him any more than you would for Fred. At the time of the suicide he was awaiting a jury verdict in his trial for the alleged multiple rapes of his niece, Anna Marie, Fred's daughter at Cromwell Street in the seventies, real dirt bag family with Fred's blessing. John allegedly rape Anna Marie, his niece, uh, over three hundred times during her childhood. The sick hits just keep coming in this dementia tale. Uh, Rose's trial begins on October 3rd, 1995.

She pleads not guilty to now 10 charges of murder. The murder of Charmaine West, uh, having been added to nine murders. She committed with Fred that authorities had the most evidence for in his opening statement prosecutor Bill Levinson portrays the West as sex-obsessed, sadistic murders. Ding, ding, ding, nailed it. Terming the bodies discovered at Cromwell Street and Midland and Midland Road, secrets more terrible than words can express. The victims last moments on Earth were as objects of the depravity of this woman and her husband. Yep.

Against the advice of her council rose, herself testifies, her affect, sometimes morose, sometimes tearful, sometimes upbeat and humorous. She weeps while describing herself as a victim of child abuse and rape, who naively married a violent and domineering man, but then jokes about issues such as her always being pregnant and laughs while describing one victim's grandfather glasses. The jury does not find her to be a sympathetic character. On November 22nd 1995, a jury convicts Rose on 10 counts of murder and she receives multiple, multiple, multiple life sentences. Today she sits in HM prison, Newhall, and West York Shire, 67 years old and in good

health, she will probably live in prison for many more years. Let's get the fuck out of this timeline. Good job, soldier. You made it back. Barely. Red and Rose West have been sucked. Gotta say, this is an episode that made me feel via comparison like one of the best ads of all time. Never fucked my kids or tried to or wanted to or savagely beaten any of them, even one time.

Dad of the year, where's my trophy? What fucking dirt bags is this pair was? Both such creeps. So much of the monsters they became can be traced back to their childhoods, but also many others who have horrific childhoods didn't become the monsters they did. There was other kids in their childhood homes that didn't become monsters. Why were they so bad? Was because they met.

They hadn't met and formed a sick little world of their own creation. A world where only Fred and Rose's pleasure and happiness mattered with their victims be alive today. Difficult to say, probably at least many of them. Rose was certainly sexually aggressive from a young age. She molested her brother, would go on to molester own children abuse them. With Fred, she became the person that would make the first move towards victims, initiating sexual contact or relationships before things took a dark turn. Caroline Owens, Anna Marie West, several other survivors of sexual assaults at the West hands, each testified at Rosa's trial that she had been by far the more calculating of the two, the more aggressive, the more controlling of the two.

Owens stated that at one stage in her ordeal, Fred said that they had abducted Owens primarily for Rosa's gratification. Fred and Rosa's son, Steven, has publicly stated that his mom was by far the most vicious of the two, but hadn't she not met Fred? What she have done what she did on her own? I think she probably would have been a murderer, but not a serial killer. I mean, she did kill Charmaine, you know, before she and Fred killed anyone together. I don't know if she would have done the rest, but who knows? Fred would have been sure. Fred would have for sure been a serial killer without Dozier, Rosie. I he was he killed his ex-wife rena on his own

you know he killed uh... uh... another woman who is pregnant third woman killed in technically there you know like four people you know those are the only murders that'll be attributed only to him uh... would either of them have killed as many as they killed had they not met each other i doubt it after think that while they both seem plenty along their own their son was greater or i guess darker than their individual parts. Fred and Rose West, known to have committed over a dozen murders between 1967 and 1987.

Many of those connected to the case, I believe there are several other victims whose body have just never have just never been found. The West House and Cromwell Street, On Cromwell Street, demolished in October 1996, every piece of debris destroyed to discourage potential souvenir hunters and nothing else built on the grounds. Painfully their legacy still lives on though in the trauma of their children in 1999, Ann Marie West attempted suicide by drowning herself. Luckily she survived.

Stephen West also known to have made unsuccessful suicide attempts. I tried to hang himself in 2002. The couple's youngest son, Barry did take his own life via a drug overdose. In October, 2020, not the long go to age of 40, so more sadness in the sad story, let's now head to some takeaways. Time suck, tough, five takeaways.

Number one, Fred and Rose West killed three members of their own family. Fred's first wife, Reena, his daughter, Charmaine, and their first daughter, Heather, first born daughter. They killed somewhere around nine more young women, at least bury them in the cellar in the patio. Little Stephen even helped take his own sister's grave. Number two Fred and Rose West had upbringings that truly made them the perfect or worst storm together.

So much abuse and incest, almost no sexual boundaries. When these two got together, it was an instant spark of sadistic sexual chemistry, the combination of their codependency, strain, sexual behavior, propensity for violence led to a house of so many horrors for their children, over a dozen deaths, and who knows how many additional rapes and militations. Number three, Fred and Rose were true perverts in every sense of the word. Rose worked as a prostitute while Fred watched his wife have sex with clients. They frequently trolled the streets for, you know, members for three sums. They raped several young women.

They sexually abused their daughters in a variety of ways. Number four, Fred ran over a four-year-old in a fucking ice cream truck. And he led such a terrible life that doesn't even register as one of the top 10 worst things he ever did. Number five, new info. In some cases, a vrmantically linked couple, someone who may not normally commit crimes on their own will be drawn to a person they know is committing crimes and become a sexually aroused at the thought of them committing to crime and then commit crimes themselves. This is a condition known as hybrid defilia.

The common term for this phenomenon is Bonnie andlines Bonnie and Clyde syndrome aptly named after one of the most famous cases of outlaw couples. We suck those outlaws back in episode 39. Other real life examples of this are women who are drawn to men in jail. These women will seek out relationships with these men. And in some cases get married to them commit crimes for them while they're incarcerated. We talked about that phenomenon several times. I still don't understand it at all, but here's what the experts say. Some speculations have been offered as to the cause of high-brace defilia, including low self-esteem,

the lack of a father figure, believing they can change your criminals' deviant ways, seeing the inner child of a criminal and wanting to nurture them, wanting to share the media spotlight, or the idea that their criminal partners locked up, and so the non-criminal partner didn't have to worry about unfaithfulness or other day-to-day concerns. One of the most infamous examples of high-brice defilia is the large number

of women attracted to Ted Bundy after his arrest. He drew dozens of women to court while he was on trial and allegedly received hundreds of love letters from women while he was incarcerated. And he even married a woman, Carol Ann Boone, whom he met while working in Washington, while he was on trial for murder. People are weird. Fred and Rose West, you know, terrible example of Hybris DeFelia or not were about the weirdest.

Time suck, tough, five take away. Fred and Rose West have been sucked. Woo! That was a big one I know, especially big, even for this show, a lot of info. Thank you to the Bad Magic Productions team for all their help and making time sick every week. Queen of Bad Magic, Lindsey Cummins, Reverend Dr. Joe Paisley, Sophie Faxx, Soros for his Evans, she ran point on this week's research, Biddelixer for continuously refining

the Time Suck app, Logan the art warlock Keith, running bad magic merch.com, working on our socials along with Liz Hernandez and being the visual artist for all things bad magic. Thanks to all those who've joined the Cult of the Curious Private Facebook group now, Cult of the Curious 2 and or one of the many online subgroups we have out there. Thanks to Liz Hernandez, they're all seen eyes running the Cult of the Curious Facebook page. Thanks to beefstake and the mod squad running wild on discord. You can link to the time suck discord group through the time suck app next week on time suck just in time for the fourth July.

We tackled one of the riskiest and heroic military operations of US history operation green up. Many have called operation green up the real life in glorious bastards. A reference to the 2009 Tarantino film in which a group of US Jewish soldiers plot to assassinate high up Nazi leaders. There would be no assassinations with this group, just a massive amount of information gathering put into allies hands that was still really fucking cool. Led in the spring of 1945 by Frederick Meyer and Hans Weinberg, two men who had fled to the US when Nazi Germany was on its rise to power, Operation Green Up went behind enemy lines to discover the truth about the Alpine Redout. And just what was the Alpine Redout for many years, Nazi Germany's propaganda machine,

spun tails to the outside world about a secret stash of weaponry and defense systems where the Nazis could potentially, that they could potentially use to continue World War II for many extra years. And reality, there was no such thing. But the Allies were essentially paralyzed left wondering what to do and where to mount their attacks before they knew there was no such thing, enter Operation Green Up. In this amazing real life, a stranger than fiction story will follow some fascinating and fucking incredibly brave meat sacks like Jewish spies, mayor and Weinberg, who were bent

on destroying the regime that had persecuted them and their families. Lieutenant Weber, a German soldier who switched sides and worked for the Allies, and the Nazis who caught Fred Meyer, tortured him and imprisoned him. What happened next? Tony next week on TimeSuck to find out. And now let's head on over to this week's Time Sucker Updates. Updates? Get your time, sucker, updates. I figured I'd get some pronunciation updates.

Last week's Cthulhu suck. Here's a quick one from the smart sucker Brandon Ryan. One of the many to point out my problems with the word, I didn't expect initially to be a problem. He writes suck master. He completely and utterly botched the pronunciation of mythos for 95% of the episode. Google the word hit the speaker button. Yes, Brandon.

Google says, mythos, actually, but then the dictionary or yeah, mythos, but then dictionary.com usually corrects as mythos. And then the other suckers or other suckers wrote in saying mythos. Some say, yeah, some say either mythos in saying Mithos. Yeah, some say either Mithos or yeah, Mithos. I like these last two after looking at all the variations. Mithos, Mithos. So who knew? That was gonna be such a polarizing word, but there are alternate pronunciations that are

acceptable. This next update also a pronunciation update, but more in depth. The whole episode really through Air Force Sucker, George Phillips into a tailspin, right? The Air Master Sucker, Cthulhu Tentacle Porn Choreographer and Crafter of Love. I've for listening to your recent podcast on the Cthulhu Mythos. I was at first irritated by your pronunciations of Mythos, Bass and Cyclopian. Thank you, Nimrod. You got Cathedral Correct,

or I'd have diarrhea in my brainstem. I was always under the impression that mythos was pronounced like mythos, like a serial that doesn't exist yet in our universe, but should. And it also tastes like Cheerios dipped in some kind of elder Siemens, nice, uh, that bass was pronounced without the S sound. I think the old nursery rhyme, Baa, Baa, Baa, lizard man, have you any dream of Chrome? Yes, Mr. President, three babies full, well done. And that Cyclopian was pronounced cyclopian

in certain dumb immature PP joke here, or P joke here, sorry. After cringeyd for a bit, I asked myself, WDD, what would Dan do? The answer is that the mush mouth, supreme would research and learn how things are pronounced, holy fine snakes, I learned that there are alternate ways to pronounce these words. Although, Baa sounds nothing like base the instrument, but can pronounce like bass to fish.

All that to say, thanks for teaching this language something new and making me crawl up for my depths of pronunciation of my pronunciation comfort zone to expand my own knowledge. I've enjoyed listening to this suck for several years now. I have to be turned onto it. Hail is a pheno by one of my NCOs when I was working many a long night shift for the Air Force. Your constant source of knowledge and laughter for me and occasionally an allergy attack. Not sorry, one bit for the long email. If you do read this on air, I want to give a shout out to my beautiful wife, Dulce, and

our newborn daughter, Anne Bellina, who will learn the magic of old jangles and the ways of Nimrod before she can walk. Thanks for all you do. Keep up the great work. Make Cthulhu bless you and your family with a millennia of memorable dreams. Sort of sincerely. George Phillips, T Sargent, US Air Force. Thank you, George. And thanks for your service. Language, right? It's ever evolving, so challenging, regional dialects like my hillbilly rural Idaho one, all of our mouths are built a little bit differently. Some of our tongues don't want to move like other tongues.

Some of us have other impediments. There's common usage and involvement. The fact that our language English is spoken by so many different nations, each putting their own flair on it makes it a little more confusing. I appreciate you looking further into all of it yourself. It's more nuanced than many believe. Enjoy that beautiful family of yours and congrats

on the new baby. Great name. Uh, now some comedy. Funny sucker, Paul, uh, Paul S. Want some fucking Whipple and even wrote his own ad for me to read. Paul writes, Hey you, yeah you! Get your dick out of your dog and drink Whipple!

Made with the only, uh, Made with the only most, the most extreme ingredients like acetone, lithium, Freon, and acid. God helps those who help themselves, and with Whipple, you can help yourself to got some other on the veranda. When you drink Whipple, you'll be able to drop pick anything. Your neighbor, your neighbor's pet, your neighbor's children, fire. When you drink Whipple, you can drop pick fire.

Any fire, bonfire, campfire, kitchen fire, forest fire, fire, fire fly. Drop pick fires in your neighbor's face. Your neighbor's pet's face. Your neighbor's children's faces faces to put down your monster pussy Draper drink that'll put you through second puberty watch everyone in the 50 foot radius can pregnant with each swing drink ruffle Now it's flavors like demon lemon garbage juice and howitzer and Adread help me to laugh. I did make me laugh Paul My favorite part was howitzer flavor

Those are way too fun to do. Another very quick pronunciation update now. I got a lot of these. Sci-fi, sucker, David Thornberry writes, it's Rod Serling, not Sterling. Thank you. I know, David, I know. I love Rod Serling, Twilight Zone creator,

and I constantly throw a teen to his name, have been doing it for years. I feel bad about that one. No disrespect to the great Rod Serling, master of weird. And now let's end on a nice little shout out, thoughtful and caring sucker Lauren Streba writes, what's up Suck Master and other Suck team members? Writing in to request a special shout out, please,

if possible. My best friend who I got into the Suck started a new life adventure a few weeks ago. Her and her boyfriend are now digital nomads, driving around the country to see everything while working remotely. That sounds so cool. I just want to say, hey, do you,

hey, do you, Madeline, I love you, I miss you, and I'm so proud and happy to see you following your dreams and living life how you want to. You're a boss bitch and truly an inspiration. Thanks for your time reading this, even if it doesn't get read on the show, appreciate all you do keeping us, stuckers entertained and educated on stuff. at least I know I wouldn't have otherwise

ever known about cheers thank you Lauren I love the phrase boss bitch be a boss bitch live life the way you want to travel safe Madeline and boyfriend may Nimrod keep you both safe and may loose a fee and keep you both entertained you boss bitches. That's all for the rest of you boss bitches for this time-stuck-a-rupt date. Thanks, time suckers. I need a net. We all did. Thanks for listening to another Bad Magic Productions podcast Meet Sacks. Please do not fuck everyone in your house this week unless you only live with your adult

lover. In that case, keep on sucking. And interpret that how you will. Ice Cream! Get your fresh ice cream! Don't don't- Alright, get all mine in the wheels! Ice Cream! Get your fresh knee cream! Boom-tom! Alright, get all mine in the wheels! Ice cream! Get your fresh knee, your polyester ice cream sandwiches!

Boom-tom! No, mine in the wheels! Gonna have to get these tires replaced. I keep running over you squirty little fuckers!