Timesuck with Dan Cummins - 271 - The Menendez Brothers: Parent Killing Sociopaths? Victims? Both?

Episode Date: November 22, 2021

I had a lot of fun on this one taking a nostalgic look at US culture in 1989 and 1993. Also found the story of Lyle and Erik Menendez incredibly interesting. Why did two brothers viciously murder their parents with shotguns in the summer of 1989? Erik was about to enroll in UCLA. Lyle was attending Princeton. Their parents spoiled them with money for lavish shopping trips, vacations, fancy cars, condos, and more. They grew up in affluence. Their parents lived in a Beverly Hills mansion that Michael Jackson and Elton John owned at one time. But, their parents had recently gotten frustrated with their continual mistakes - breaking into the homes of neighbors and stealing jewelry, destroying school and country club property, getting suspended from college for plagiarism, and on and on. And they'd threatened to cut them out of their inheritance. Is that why they killed? For money? Or, had they been so traumatized by years and years of sexual abuse that they felt like they has to kill their parents to defend themselves? Find out today on another true crime edition of Timesuck. The Bad Magic Productions charity of the month is IAVA - Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America- thanks to you we are able to give $15,800 to this very deserving cause. IAVA serves and empowers the post-9/11 veterans' community. They offer guidance and support, such as helping vets get and use their GI bill, helping them with housing, directing them towards mental health support, and more.For additional information, please go to https://iava.org/Watch the Suck on YouTube:  https://youtu.be/yeanQBKS4xoMerch - https://badmagicmerch.com/  Discord! https://discord.gg/tqzH89vWant to join the Cult of the Curious private Facebook Group? Go directly to Facebook and search for "Cult of the Curious" in order to locate whatever current page hasn't been put in FB Jail :)For all merch related questions/problems: [e-mail] (copy and paste)Please rate and subscribe on iTunes and elsewhere and follow the suck on social media!! @timesuckpodcast on IG and http://www.facebook.com/timesuckpodcastWanna become a Space Lizard? We're over 10,000 strong! Click here: https://www.patreon.com/timesuckpodcastSign up through Patreon and for $5 a month you get to listen to the Secret Suck, which will drop Thursdays at Noon, PST. You'll also get 20% off of all regular Timesuck merch PLUS access to exclusive Space Lizard merch. You get to vote on two Monday topics each month via the app. And you get the download link for my new comedy album, Feel the Heat. Check the Patreon posts to find out how to download the new album and take advantage of other benefits.

For Jose and Kitty Menendez, when they woke up on August 20th, 1989, it seemed like it was going to be just another normal day. Another day of living the American dream of being rich, still pretty young, and living in a Beverly Hills mansion. And then of course, their day would suddenly come to anything but a normal end. Their lives would end unexpectedly in an incredibly violent fashion. The couple relaxed in their living room, watching a movie, eating some ice cream that night. They seemed to be in the midst of it.

Fairytale life wealthy, seemingly destined for so much more wealth, still only in their mid 40s. Jose just 45, Kitty only 47. It spent the day before on a shark hunting expedition on a chartered yacht with their two sons, Lyle, 21 and Eric 18. Jose was an upper level entertainment exec who made millions a year. He worked hard to get there. He'd come to America from Cuba as a teenager. After the Cuban Revolution determined to succeed in our massive free market economy, he'd worked as a dish

washer in the early days of his marriage, truly started at the bottom. From the outside, the two of them seemed to embody the American dream. Their hard work paid off. Their young attractive sons were primed for careers in the same industry as their dad if they wanted it. Their surroundings looked serious, more than comfortable, and then in a flash it was all over. When police got to the house, they found a gruesome crime scene. Jose and Kitty had been shot over a dozen times in the head and body.

They've been shot through their kneecaps. It looked like a professional execution. Their American dream would come to a bloody end. And at the center of it all was Lyle and Eric, two young men who seemed to be grieving initially, but quickly went and spent around $700,000 of their inheritance on anything they wanted, restaurants, multiple cars, Rolexes, expensive vacations, and all that seemed suspicious to the police, especially when they couldn't find anyone on the outside of the family who would have wanted Jose and Kitty dead.

And when the crime scene evidence did not suggest a professional execution, but rather murder stage two look like professional executions, they started to wonder could it be that Lyle and Eric had killed their own parents. It was well known that Lyle and Eric had their struggles, both with the law, which Jose's money had always stepped into fix and also in their personal lives. Was it really possible that the Menendez brothers were true sociopaths capable of killing their parents for their inheritance? Lot of evidence would point to yes.

But a few years after Lyla and Eric were charged with the crimes after confessing to a psychiatrist who taped the conversations, a different story would suddenly emerge to the trial. Lyla and Eric would say that they had to kill their parents. It was self-defense essentially because Kiting Jose had been sexually abusing them for years. The abuse was going to continue.

Eric would even say that he snuck cinnamon into his father's coffee, because he'd heard it made seem and taste better. Was that the truth? What was actually going on inside the Menendez home? Could it be that Jose and Kitty's American dream was a whole lot darker than anyone thought? Or were the sexual abuse allegations

part of a web of lies told by two true sociopaths who thought that their money and privilege could get them out of anything. The full twisted story of the Menendez brothers told right here, today on another true crime edition of Time Suck. time suck. This is Michael McDonald and you're listening to Time suck. You will be staying to talk something. Happy Monday, you beautiful bastards. How's life? How's 2021 treating you? How's 2022 looking? Good, I hope.

Happy Thanksgiving, by the way, to my American suckers. I hope you get some solid turkey. I hope it isn't dry. Hope whoever cooked it, you know, didn't get lazy and not make the gravy. And if you don't like turkey, well, eat some ham then. Put a pineapple glaze on it. Feast.

You don't eat meat? You know what, we'll fuck you then. Get your toe, Furkey, and eat it alone, sittin' in a porta-pottyty like the piece of shit you are. I'm sorry, that was too much. That was I'm called for. What do I care at you eat? It's none of my business, frankly,

and I'm ashamed of myself for overstepping like that. But I do hope you get some pumpkin pie because I love you. And if my mom's taught me anything, it's that food is love, especially sugary food. Anyway, I'm Dan Cummins, Master of Sucker, the Mushmask King, Turkey eater, gravy lover, cranberry, sauce, connoisseur. I was gonna say cranberry, costs connoisseur,

because of course I was. The cheap can jelly is the best, and this is time suck. Hail Nimrod, maybe all live forever in your balls. Hail Lucifina, maybe coming this life in the next. Praise the mojangles, you're a good boy. And I hope you get all the mashed potatoes you want, but stay away from the turkey bones because they can splinter or they can choke you.

And triple M, thank you for the many holiday classics. You've recorded that we can tastefully begin to listen to on Friday after Thanksgiving, but not a moment before. It's too much. Amen or something. How about no announcements today, huh? Other than I hope I had fun in Denver and

Loveland recorded this show before I flew to Denver thanks to all of you who bought tickets, appreciated it, I had to add an extra show in Denver because a lot of you wanted to come laugh, and I added a show in Loveland while back. So hot damn, show's been fun. And now I got a lot of information to throw out you. I hope you find it as interesting as I do in this big old true crime suck. While the murders of Jose and Kitty Menenda has happened in 1989, it was a 1993 trial that made this case a national sensation, 89 and 93. The biggest two years for today's episode. Let's, let's

learn about the youth culture America during each of these years. 1989, Michael Keaton's Batman, his years top box office draw. This is the movie, Lyall and Eric initially claim to be watching while their parents were being killed. Batman took and just over 250 million dollars at the box office. Jack Nicholson's Joker, Kim Basinger's Vicky Vale. Guys, you love Kim Basinger. Rainman, Indiana Jones, and the last crusade, dead poet's society, pet cemetery, lethal weapon, too. Honey, I shrunk the kids, Ghost Busters, too. Halloween five, the burbs, several other noteworthy 1989 movies, and the burbs. One of my favorite 80s movies, Tom Hanks, Hidden Gem, Great Tom Hanks and Cory Feldman pairing.

One of Feldman's last good movies, if not the last good movie he did. Ricky Butler, The Pervy Meatball Next Door. Bobby Brown's Don't Be Cruel was the year's top selling album in 89. Holy shit, that I have my prerogative memorized off that album. The video of Bobby Dancing and a headset microphone. That is peak 89. And yes, I rocked that shit in my battery powered Walkman. Everybody's talking all this stuff about me.

Why don't they just let me live? Tell me why I don't need commission, make my own decisions. That's my prerog, it's my prerogative. I don't need commission make my own decisions. That's my pyrogue. It's my pyrogative. And he used fucking dance. It's the way that I wanna live. It's my pyrogative, right? Fucking sliding back and forth in a poofy pants.

Madonna's like a prayer. Another huge album. I thought she was so sexy in 1989, my God. Really knew what sexy was. She was sexy. Hail to Savannah. I thought you were so sexy in 1989, my God. Barely knew what sexy was. She was sexy, hallowed us a Fina. Life is a mystery. Everyone must stand alone.

I hear you call my name and it feels like home. So, sultry, she, you sexy fuck back in 1989. Thanks to Columbia House and BMG record clubs I had all those albums on cassette, put my turbo boost on in my bass button. It was, it was feeling like I was hot shit. It only required about 75, you know, D batteries

to get that thing to work for about 45 minutes. Now that was a trick with the boombox. It's the batteries. But 12 albums for a penny, then you were supposed to buy a bunch of more albums later at full price, which I didn't, and my friends didn't either. And then they would have debt collectors, you know, send letters to our houses, but we were kids, so they would give up. Motley Cruz, Dr. Feel Good, Nine-inch Nails, Pretty Hate Machine, Tom Petty's Full Moon Fever, Jenna Jackson's For The Nation, Jenna Jackson, rhythm nation Jenna Jackson

No, the one sexy's fuck aero smith's pump Janie's got a gun some other popular releases that year MTV wildly popular still played mostly music videos Double dragon with the top arcade games Super Mario Bros. 3 the top Nintendo game As far as TV went kids were loving family matters window game. As far as TV went, kids were loving family matters. Erkle saved by the bell screech. Those fucking nerds run TV all the time. Major dad, doogie houseer, popular with the youth, popular with the cool kids culture. The Simpsons made their TV debut as a short and the Tracy Olman show in December that year. The Berlin wall came down. Big oversized bomber jackets,

worn over t-shirts, all the rage. As we're loose fitting acid wash jeans, spandex bicycle shorts, I forgot those were in lots of black lace, black lace shirt, black lace gloves, black lace dresses, right? Madonna used to wear that shit a lot, bright neon clothing, shoulder pads, white leggings, jeans were in penny loafers, poofy hair scrunchies, crimp an irons, putting so much fucking hair spray into their hair. The infamous wall of bangs on the girls feathered bangs, coolest fuck for the dudes. Lot of today's teen fashion, very late 80s, early 90s influence. And then a 93, you know, things shift a bit.

Mostly thanks to Michael mother fucking McDonald's chart topping culture shifting blink of an eye album Time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a riddle time is a rid Anything culturally in 1993. But Grunge enraptured, the Androgynous secondhand Grunge look competes with gangster rap for teen fashion dominance, youth dominance as far as fashion wise. The Grunge look started in Seattle in the mid 80s, spread nationwide thanks to the popularity of bands like Nirvana, Sound Garden, Pearl Jam and others, Doc Martin, Combat style boots, flannel ripped, worn work jeans, muted tones, hemp leather, chain bracelets, the classic leather wallet connected to your pants via chain. I was, I was never fucking cool enough to rock that, but I wore the other shit.

While a lot of 80s fashion came out of sunshine and the gym, right? Lift and weights, aerobic studios, Southern California and the beach. All bright and fun, cherry, Grunge flipped that shit around. We got all melancholy, darkness, right? Rain, gangster rap, also pretty dark. Not exactly cherry shit. Fuck the gym, fuck my life, everything sucks. Let's go get stoned.

It's 80s with all about uppers. And it was cocaine. 90s was about downers. Weed, and if you were really into grunge heroin, adding to the dark fashion vibes of grunge were the oversized starter sports sports team jackets and starter baseball caps worn by the gangster rap crowd. Big gold chains oversized everything. Huge white t-shirts big baggy four way sizes too big barely kept on your ass by belt jeans,

sagging that shit halfway off your boxers, fat farm, jenko, echo and limited, timberland boots, kangle caps, fubu, everything. Air Jordans, everyone trying to look like two-pock. Jurassic Park dominated the box office over nine hundred and fourteen million dollars at the box office. Mrs. Doubtfire, yay Robin Williams, a distance second. It just over $441 million. Some other notable films that year, the fugitive, Shinler's List in decent proposal, sleepless in Seattle, menace to society, Philadelphia, and of course, Tombstone.

Quoted that one more than enough last week. Whitney Houston soundtrack for the bodyguard was a top selling album by far. Who could forget? I actually came out in 1992, bodyguard was a top selling album by far. Who could forget? I actually came out in 1992, but it was a top selling one for 93. I will always love you. I will always love you. I actually fucking hit that about 17 octaves above that. Bobby Brown, Whitney Houston, one of America's power couples in 93 the met in 89

other big 1993 albums were Pearl Jam's verses don't call me daughter not fit to the picture kept will remind me don't call me daughter not fear to be a picture. I was only had a fucking long ass main hair. He got his big boots on his shorts. He hated being famous, we kind of loved it. Smashing pumpkins, release Simeez Dream. That's such a great album. Today is the greatest day I'm in known. Billy Corgan's got a whiny ass voice, but it works that album.

Nirvana and utero, Wu Tang Clan clan enter the Wu Tang 36 chambers, right? Tribe called quest midnight marauders, cypress hills, black Sunday, snoop dogs, doggy style, two pop releases strictly for my NIGG AZ. Howler, if you hear me, sitcoms, full house and family matter still going strong, but now sign failed to get in pretty popular. Street fighter to Adouken. Oh, you get killing it at the arcade and at home on Super Nintendo aka Super no Friendo Also wildly popular in 1993 with all this other stuff going on is the trial of the Menendez brothers

To hand some rich kids who seem to have had it all and kids like me 89 93 that era living in little towns, and quote unquote, flyover states like Idaho, which is such an elitist dismissive label, by the way, used by pretentious, coastal taste makers for years. Kids like me thought the Menendez brothers have been living the dream when that story first hit, right? If they were not actually being abused like they later claimed during their trial, right? They were living the dream. Sons of a Hollywood movie exec private tennis lessons,

gated LA area mansions, living in a mansion in Beverly fucking hills at the end. Fresh Prince Beverly Hills, right, led by a young Will Smith, also very popular show with young viewers in 93. I watched all the time. A second show I watched about Beverly Hills after watching Beverly Hills, Beverly Hillbillies, three runs growing up.

Beverly Hills just seemed like the coolest place in the country for many. And also so far away, right? Rich kids shopping on rodeo drive, get the fuck out of here. Was that real? We were so poor the only way we even watched the show about the Fresh Prince, which used a satellite discrampler to avoid pain. Beverly Hills 90210, another very popular show in 93. What kid didn't want to live the Beverly Hills life?

Pools, hot bodies by the pool, and down at the beach, movie stars, living down the street, coolest bands on earth playing on the sunset, strip, or the Hollywood Bowl? All the best stores, latest fashion, no other city in America defined the combination of cool and affluence in 1993 like Beverly Hills. A stone's throw from both Hollywood and Malibu. Fuck yeah, bro. I get America's fascination with this trial.

Why would two young men seemingly given everything by their parents? Why would they kill them? How especially tragic for Jose and Kitty, again, if they were not big time sexual abusers, to climb up from humble beginnings, neither one of them came from wealth to accomplish so much seemed to be on the cusp of accomplishing so much more to indulge their children with the best of everything and then have those same kids gun them down in their home. If you can't trust your own kids, kids who you seem to give everything they ever wanted, who can you trust? It seemed like the ultimate betrayal. People in 1993 wanted to know why

was it really just about the money or does something else go on America was just starting to get truly fascinated with true crime in 1993. We're to think now the true crime coverage being so pervasive The not long ago there wasn't nearly as much interest as there currently is Court TV and their coverage of the Menendez brothers really helped establish that interest Court TV which televised a trial Menendez brothers really helped establish that interest. Court TV, which televised the trial, had just debuted in the summer of 1991. It was America's first true crime network focusing on true crime documentaries, legal dramas, coverage of prominent criminal cases all day every day.

In the Menendez brothers murder trial, that was Court TV's first big hit. The first big true crime show for the first big true crime network. It preceded the OJ Simpson trial, which would have been an even bigger hit, or which would be, excuse me, even bigger hit, by about nine months. It's at the stage for the media hype around Simpson's trial. The Menendez trial proved that people would tune in

day in and day out for a sensational trial. By the time the Simpson trial came along, or Simpson, not the cartoon, court TV was more than ready for it. I've been already shown that one case could be the end all and be all of unscripted entertainment. The Menendez trial helped pave the way for the popularity we have now of reality TV alongside MTV's of the real world. That premiered the year before in 1992. Many people were discovering that sometimes televised real life was more compelling than televised fiction. By the summer of 93, more than 1.3 million people were tuning in daily to watch hour after hour after hour of testimony and legal minutia in the courtroom.

Covers that turn judges, lawyers and witnesses into celebrities and making the coverage part of the overall memory of the case court TV's tagline at the time was if court TV were any more addictive, it would be illegal. noise A certain trial moments became a part of 1993 pop culture in October of 1993 Saturday Night Live parody the Menendez brothers dedicated an almost eight minute long sketch to the coverage John Malkovich played Lyle Rob Rob Schneider, played Eric, young Rob Schneider, Mike Myers played court TV reporter, Julia Sweeney from nearby Spokane,

Washington actually, played an attorney, and this sketch, Malkovich, mocks Lyle crying and blames the murder of their parents on previously unknown fellow brothers. Danny and Jose Menendez. Now, is it true your father never allowed your other two brothers, Danny and Jose Jr. out of the house? Yes. And that he never allowed them to go to school? Yes.

Never had them in family pictures or mentioned them to friends. Yes. No drivers licenses, no birth certificates, no social security cards. My father said Danny and Jose Jr. didn't deserve to have any official records of their existence because they were weak and not good tennis players. That sketch kills me. The brother of the show began in pop culture later parody in the 1996 dark comedy The Cable Guy, Ben Stilder,

playing brother Sam and Stan Sweet, the form of whom is accused of murdering the latter in an ongoing background gag and the Jim Carrey Matthew Broderick dark comedy. And while never stated, you know, just officially, the character strongly appeared to be based on Lylon Eric. Director and writer Oliver Stone was fascinated by the media obsession with the Menendez trial, and it would influence his creation of the cult classic Woody Harrelson, Juliet

Lewis film, Natural Born Killers. God, I also love Juliet Lewis. Hill, Lewis to Fina, she just seemed so cool. But then after the first trial ended in January of 1994, the general public for the most part lost interest in the brothers when no cameras were allowed in the courtroom for their second trial, which began in October 11, 1995, the public's morbid curiosity could no longer be continually fed. And I don't know they would have been hungry for the case anyway.

They'd already moved on to O.J. Simpson and his double homicide trial. He'd fled on the freeway and that infamous Bronco on June 17th, 94. And then his controversial not guilty verdict would be handed down on October 5th the following year after infamous moments like, you know, he couldn't get the glove on. If it doesn't fit, you must quit. Other theatrics, human endez documentaries, melodramas and true crime episodes followed in the last years, the 20th century, the early years, the 21st century. They've, you know, continued to trickle in over the years, but real widespread pop culture interest would not return until earlier this year when the Menendez brothers went viral on TikTok while a lot of Eric's accusations, the sexual abuse were widely mocked by young and old alike

back in 93, like they were mocked in this, you know, set on a live sketch, the 2021 TikTok crowd seems to view things very differently. The overwhelming majority of TikTok users wane in on accusations seem to think that a, the brothers were for sure sexually abused by the parents, especially their father, significantly for a long period of time, that B, Jose and Kitty deserve getting murdered because of this sexual abuse. And C, the brothers served too much time behind bars or have served too much time already and should be freed immediately.

Several media outlets have recently written about numerous influential TikTokers coming to the defense of Lyle and Eric. On the majority of my generation tended to see them as greedy sociopaths and proven liars, willing to kill their own parents to avoid the possibility of being cut out of their parents will. A lot of the current generation seems to see them as definitely being the victims of years of sexual abuse and killing their parents, you know, was a violent and justified reaction to that abuse.

Murder is a way to protect themselves and put an end to the abuse once and for all. As of November 15th, 2021, change.org position, asking for a new trial for the brothers has 288, 1,288, 118 electronic signatures. I got to forget how numbers work. But as the brothers already exhausted all their appeals and new trial at this moment seems pretty unlikely. Been a while since we visited Patrick's side or Matt's side here on TimeStuck. Ed camper killed a set of grandparents when he was a teenager and he killed his mom, you know, several years

later. Mother, why do you make me so angry? Lizzie Borden, even though she was found not guilty, likely killed her father in stepmom with an axe. We looked at that back in October of 2018. There are numerous theories as to why she did that back in August of 1892. One is that her dad had been sexually abusing her and that her stepmom turned a blind eye towards the abuse.

Very similar to the Menenda's brothers defense teams, main strategy in that first trial employed almost exactly a hundred years later. Matresside, the killing of one's mother, patresside, the killing of one's father, very rare crimes, and killing both almost never happens. Very hard to find an example of a child killing both their mother and father. One of the only other examples in modern American history I could find actually occurred right here in Idaho, Sarah Marie Johnson. She grew up in Bellevue near catch him in the Sun Valley ski resort, same neck of the woods

where the Reverend Dr. Joe Pays grew up. How weird is that? They knew each other went to school together. She was in the class below Joe. They were in the same communion class about 10 of them, crazy that he actually knew her on September 2nd, 2003. She took a 264 caliber Winchester model, 70 bolt action rifle from Repair and's guesthouse. Walked into Repair and's parents bedroom shot her mom in the head

While she was sleeping then shot her dad in the chest as he was getting out of the shower killed him both when she was just 16 And why because they had forbidden her from dating local 19-year-old Bruno Santos Seriously, that was the only reason or My dad killed him and you know she took the fall he was living or my dad killed him. And she took the fall. He was living just a few hours away in 2003. And we weren't talking a lot of that time and there are a lot of holes in his known confirmed whereabouts.

Like so many, I'm not saying he should be investigated, but I do think it might be worth it for law enforcement to question him. Do we have a dad watch? Didn't exist back then. But seriously, Sarah is currently in prison in the Pogotello Women's Correctional Center for such a fucking crazy crime.

Near where my dad lives, maybe he visits her, you know, maybe, I don't know. A lot of people have had and many still have a hard time believing that the Menendez brothers would actually murder both their parents just because they might be cut out of their will. They want them to have more of a motive. But Sarah killed her parents for forbidding her from dating a dude. She, you know, would have likely just been able to keep on dating on the slide until she turned 18 anyway and then just legally moved out. Don't want you wanted. And Joe says her ex boyfriend, you know, Bruno

pays a shit. Don't hit him actually got into it once. Joe punched him in the face for stealing money from Joe's locker and then the school security guard caught him stealing again from Joe's locker the following week. Sounds like Joe should have maybe punched him even harder. Sarah killed her parents so she could keep dating the dirt back. She probably would have broken up with student anyway. Joe says she always seemed like a nice kid. No record of crazy behavior previously. If she could do that, I think the men and his brothers could have killed their parents to get a whole bunch of money. Sometimes seemingly decent people with no history of violence will randomly or seemingly randomly commit the most cold

blooded crimes of passion or coldly calculated crimes for personal financial gain. For many, Lyle and Eric being horrifically sexually abused for years gave them a much stronger motive to kill. Sexual abuse at the hands of a parent, I mean, that is a horrific violation. I think a Fred and Rose West, not only sexually abused, you know, their children constantly and savagely, but even killed some. Those of us with good parents, man, we are lucky. None of us get to pick who our parents are. One of the hands were dealt, right? And my how that hand varies tremendously. Some of us born into homes ran by adults who are intelligent, compassionate, supportive, nurturing, protective, financially successful, able to provide incredible

opportunities. Some of us born into homes ran by people who are judgmental, nurturing, protective, financially successful, able to provide incredible opportunities. Some was born into homes ran by people who are judgmental, cruel, ignorant, dangerous, negligent, emotionally or physically abusive, sometimes sexually abusive. Also as parents, don't get to choose who your kids are. I'll decide at the same coin that doesn't get talked about nearly as much. I mean, sure, you can steer them a considerable amount toward being good citizens of the world, but nurture only goes so far. Nature is also powerful, and that's another random poker hand. Every once in a while, you get dealt a true fucking sociopath. What if Jose and Kittyman end is, we're dealt two sociopaths. Two kids who saw them at the end

of the day is not being much more than walking ATMs. And when they thought those ATMs were we're going to stop spitting out cash unless they took a fucking shotgun to them. What if that's what happened? Now try to because that to work your ass off, build an amazing life for not just yourselves, but your children then have those children kill you in your home. Is that what happened here? For most of their lives at least it doesn't appear that Jose and Kitty Menen is we're afraid of their sons, Eric and Lyle. They had no reason for the majority of their child. It's a thing that they're to worry about them killing them. It must have been so shocked when they walked up on them, fired those shotguns. They'd been disappointed in them in moments previously, for sure, quite a few actually.

What parent isn't from time to time disappointed with their kids' choices, right? They were disappointed when Lyle got suspended from Princeton. When he damaged property, got into legal trouble. They were concerned that the boy they thought they'd raised to become a big time exec, like his dad seemed more interested in partying with his buddies, buying luxury goods, with mommy and daddy's money and playing tennis. They were concerned that their younger son, Eric, was a weak, wild pushover. They weren't scared of him. They did think their sons were way too entitled to money they hadn't made, to a lifestyle

they hadn't worked for, to respect they hadn't earned. You know, they created those entitled monsters. In my opinion, and they were now, you know, concerned about how entitled they seem to be years of getting their sons out of scrapes, paying people off to protect their brothers' reputations had not, of course, created two response with young men with a lot of integrity, self-discipline, and respect for the world around them. They even taught that they could just get away with anything. They wanted the combination of charm, appearances and of course money did that lesson tragically backfire on the people who taught them that lesson. Maybe it seems whether their abuse was real or not that they become so entitled. They thought they could get away with their parents murders when Jose and Kitty finally leveled the ultimatum of

shape up or you're going to be cut out of the well. Lyle and Eric ages 21 and 18, not quite 19 seemed to react to that ultimatum with murder. On the night of August 20th, 1989, they came into the living room where Jose and Kitty were dozing, watched a movie started firing. Jose and Kitty were not so much killed as rendered nearly completely unidentifiable. Fifteen rounds from two 12 gauge shotguns. Then for the following months, Lyle and Eric would pretend to be grieving sons while they pointed fingers at the mafia for the murders, went on ridiculous spending sprees,

rackin' up, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in bills for watches, luxury cars, pro tennis coaches and more. They behaved as if they committed the perfect crime and they'd never get caught. They spent money, lots of money, didn't seem to care if it made them look suspicious or not. Despite all the lavish spending, they probably would have gotten away with the murders.

But then Eric confessed to his therapist, Dr. Jerome Ozeel, and then that guy told his mistress, and then she told the cops, and then Lyle and Eric's big spending, free and lavish, living, came to a grinding halt. That's the overview. Let's get into the nitty gritty now. Let's meet the main players involved. Curious if you'll come to the same conclusion I did about Lyla and Eric, manipulative and murder

a sociopath willing to kill their parents just to get unsupervised access to all that money or traumatized victims, murdering their abusers and some version of self-defense. Or some combination of both of those that don't have to be mutually exclusive. Let's dive into today's time suck timeline, try to answer these questions.

Before I do, note that for much of the timeline information we relied on one source. I mean, definitely looked at a variety of other sources, but there was one main source. The details, what happened behind closed doors, the Menendez family more than any other source. It's the book, The Menendez murders, the shocking untold story of The Menendez family and the killings that's down the nation by Robert Rand. Journalist Rand, who originally reported on the case for the Miami-Herald and Playboy,

followed The Menendez Murders from the beginning has continued investigating and interviewing key sources to this day. The only reporter who covered the original investigation as well as the later trial and continues to cover them, you know, now. So there's any information where you're like, how could you have known that? Well, I probably got it from Bobby Randy. I mean, Bobby Rand, I mean, handy Randy. I mean, Robert Rand. Now let's dive in. After using this least intrusive spot

this week for our sponsor break, thank you for listening to those deals, meet SACs. Now it is timeline time. Thank you for listening to those deals, meat sacks. Now it is timeline time. On May 6, 1944, Jose Enrique Menendez, the man who become the father of Eric Laumannendez, born into a prosperous family in Havana, Cuba. His father, Jose Francisco Pepin Menendez, Pepin like his nickname was a well-known soccer player and Cuba who owned his own accounting firm. His mom, Maria Carlada, Ionio Navarro Menendez was a swimmer. They've been elected to Cuba's sports hall of fame.

So good athletes. Jose himself would become an elite swimmer, all kinds of crazy athletes in the Menendez family tree. Uh, poor Maria, she would live until 2009 long enough to know her son would be murdered by a grandkids. Jose would die in 1987 and be spared this tragedy. He would die only knowing that his son, daughter-in-law and grandkids were crushing it. Although his family were not among the upper crust, aka Cuba's political elite.

Jose's parents were celebrity athletes, and he and his two sisters wanted for nothing growing up. In 1959, when Jose was just 14, his seemingly idyllic life was turned upside down when Cuba was turned upside down. After six years of fighting, the Communists had won the Cuban Revolution. And the Cuban Revolution, oh, is a complex topic. Way too much to try and unpack here. I will say, though, that most historians seem to agree that Castro did not improve

life for the average citizen. Castro's human rights record, not great. Tracked by groups like Amnesty International. On February 16th, 1959, Fidel Castro sworn in as prime minister of Cuba after leading the guerrilla campaign that forced right wing dictator, Philhencio Batista into exile. Castro would make some big changes to Cuba in the name of communism. And those changes would not benefit Lyle and Eric's grandparents. Honestly, they would not benefit many people.

Literacy rates improved, so that's good. Access to healthcare for the poor improved. That's very good. But under Castro, the upper and middle classes lost property and the lower classes faced higher prices for goods, and the government grew far more repressive in prisoning or executing anyone who dared to speak out against their regime. So if you're scared all the time and can harbor a little to no help or a little no hope, excuse me, for true economic prosperity at some point, are you really that pumped about

having the government pay for your broken leg? So you can then just return home to keep living in poverty and continue being afraid that Castro or, you know, or sorry, I'm sorry, one of his goons is going to drag you off to detention center slash torture room. Well, Janko's is shaking his head. No, no, you are not going to be that pumped. Good boy, Pogangles, you fucking get it. The United States initially recognized this new Cuban dictator,

but then withdrew its support after Castro launched a program of agrarian reform, nationalized US assets on the island and declared a Marxist government. Many of Cuba's upper middle class and wealthier citizens fled to the US, where some would join the CIA in their efforts to overthrow Castro's regime. Jose would become a or excuse me, Jose would not become involved with the CIA that we know of, but he would flee to the US.

After crashed, Castro came to power. Jose's parents saw their lives in Cuba. You know, we're forever changed. Their first step they made in their decision to leave Cuba was to send their son over before them. Jose flew to the US with his sister's fiance, first date with the cousin, then quickly settled in Haleton, Pennsylvania, located between Scranton and Allentown. Even though he had no money, no support system, he was determined to succeed in a new country.

Jose studied diligently in high school, worked part-time to earn spending money. Due to financial hardship, Jose was not able to achieve one of his dreams, which was to attend an Ivy League college. But due to uprooting, changing entire school systems, etc. He didn't have the money or the academic resume to chase that dream. Instead he attended Southern Illinois University in Carbondale, the Saluki's. Where many years ago I had one of the worst stand-up comedy shows of my life. Holy shit. If I would have had 10 shows and a row that bad, I had one of the worst standup comedy shows of my life. Holy shit.

If I would have had 10 shows in a row that bad, I would have fucking quit. And then he'll later pressure his sons to attain the Ivy League education he was not able to. And Carbondale Jose will meet his future wife, Mary Louise Anderson, Kitty, to those who knew her. And to those who knew her real well, sugar plus, Taylor Lucifer and the JK of course, Kitty, not sugar plus. It was three years older than Jose

from Oak Lawn, Chicago, middle class, supper. Let's learn about Kitty's sugar plus now. Who is the woman who gave birth to the Menendez bros? I say bros instead of brothers, I picture Mario brothers. But instead of Mario and Luigi, going down pipes and battling Cupid trubus, I picture little animations of Lyle and Eric, tiny shotguns in hand.

And instead of trying to save the princess, they're trying to shoot her in her kingdom. Hey, did we go? Kitty was born in 1941, youngest of four children of Charles and Mae Anderson. During her early childhood, Kitty's family solidly middle class, her dad owned a heat and air conditioning business that did well. Her mom stayed at home to care for Kitty and her two older brothers, milked and Brian, no, milk. That sounds like a nice, dependable older brother,

milked, milked, not getting drunk. He's at home studying. Kitty's older sister, Joni, sweet cheeks, sugar, plus and sweet cheeks. The most popular girls in school. Gosh dang. No, Joan, her name was Joan. Although the Anderson family appeared to be loving and close behind closed doors, there

was trouble. Kitty's father beat her mother. Sometimes in front of the children, Chuck also beat the kids. Sadly, both child abuse and spousal abuse, particularly wife abuse, much more common than 1950s when Kitty was growing up than it is now. Didn't really start to become a law enforcement priority or a cultural priority nationally until the 1970s. That's fucking crazy.

That's not the long ago. Back in the 50s, a husband hitting his wife in the face was considered a family matter. More than it was a legal matter. That's terrifying. Shit like that right there. That's why I will always advocate for strong law enforcement presence in society. Too many fucking idiots. Right?

Doing dumb shit. Shit heads who just aren't responsible enough to manage their freedom appropriately. They're the reason we end up with more laws than I care for. Bad apples who fuck things up for the rest of us. Can't trust them to be good husbands, or good wives, or good parents. Sometimes Uncle Sam sends him enforcers over to step in, throw him on their stomach, cuff him, take him away, you know, take away some of the rights they no longer deserve. Hail Nimrod for those who risk their personal safety to help protect the personal safety of others. Before Kitty entered grammar school, Chuck E. Fist Cuffs left her mom for another one. And wouldn't you know what? He did not send a lot of money back

to take care of the fam he was done beating. Chuck seems like a real winner. In order to support her family, Kitty's mom now worked for United Airlines at Midway Airport outside of Chicago, which is a great little airport by the way, kind of like a Burbank's, John, or the Burbank's airport. Small, you know, but plenty of routes. Kitty's parents eventually divorced and by all accounts, even though her dad was a piece of shit, Kitty did not seem to take it well. Friends and family remembered her as being depressed after the divorce with drawn, had trouble forming friendships, never seemed to make a lot of friends in school after that.

Possible she was taking cues from her mom who never remarried, who people later remembered as being bitter and depressed. Kitty grew up believing that divorce was a source of all of her and her mom's problems. Commence the divorce was the worst thing that could happen to a woman, worse than being beat. What a sad belief to hang on to. This belief would play into Kitty's relationship with Jose down the line. Luckily for Kitty, she'd get out of this uncomfortable family situation, make her own life.

In her senior year high school, she applied to was accepted by Southern Illinois University. 1958, her freshman year, she began to work in the university's broadcasting department, where she learned to produce dramas for radio and TV. This was something gave her a lot of confidence. And then by her senior year, 1962, she'd come out of her shell so much she competed in and won Miss Oak Lawn Beauty Pageant, was sponsored by the VFW. And that was when she started asking to be called sugar plus maybe. I don't know, probably not. I like to think about someone actually asking others to call them that for some reason, right? How uncomfortable that

would be. Hi, Kitty, I'm Dan. Dan, please call me sugarpuss. Sorry, sugarpuss, please call me sugarpuss. Do I have to? I mean, it's funny, but it does make me uncomfortable to do it for reals. No, after the confidence boost of winning the beauty pageant, she starts to imagine that after she graduated, she's going to move to New York City, start a career in producing and directing radio and TV. But that wouldn't pan out, you know, like she planned. Enter Jose. He also is attending Southern Illinois University on a swimming scholarship.

They meet during Kitty Senior Year in 1962, Jose Freshman Year on the surface. He'm like an odd pairing. Kitty, three years older than Jose. They come from vastly different backgrounds. And this is still, you know, the early 60s when people are less open in America to interracial couples. You know, Jose Cuban, Kitty is primarily

of Scandinavian heritage. Heingibanghi, uh, yeah. Still within a short time, they become inseparable. Investigative journalist, Robert Rand, speculated that Jose must have loved Kitty, but also loved what she represented. Physically attractive beauty pageant winner, the daughter of business owner solidly upper middle class.

By winning Kitty, Jose had instantly rates. I mean, that's what Robert Rances. I don't know if she was ever middle class, more like middle middle. But by winning Kitty, Jose had instantly raised his social status in his new country. That's for Kitty. Maybe she saw depth to Jose that other people lacked it was a hard worker, always a hard worker. He'd already overcome hardships, not someone who's content to lie back on family connections and money like many of the classmates she probably grew up with.

Excited when he told her that he planned to make it big in the corporate world. She believed in his drive and ambition. They were happy together. So happy they didn't mind when people around campus stared at him. Even though the civil rights movement had been underway for several years, carbon-dale, isolated conservative Illinois town. Mines had opened here, maybe not quite as much as they had in Brooklyn, Hollywood, or nearby Chicago. There was pushback from their families, both actually.

Kitty's family was surprised, alarmed. Maybe it's the better word. She was dating a Cuban teenager. Jose's family also, not happy. they thought Kitty was beneath their social standing, because her parents were divorced, and that was less common, there was more stigma around it. Also thought that a 19 Jose was too young to get married, but neither were going to let their parents stop them. They were in love, they had big plans, they want to get started on them. 1963 after Kitty graduates, Jose and Kitty, they get married, immediately moved New York City. Jose's parents had moved there after fleeing Castro's regime a few years after he did. They made it their 1961. Jose gives up his athletic scholarship at

Southern Illinois, transfers to Queens College, City University of New York, to study accounting, his dad's trade. Well, Kitty finds a job teaching grade school. During the early years of her marriage, Kitty's dream of working in broadcasting against the failed, she discards, excuse me, her plans to obtain a master degree in order to support Jose and his career. A lot of moms do that, right? A lot of wives, moms, they give up on their dreams

when they have families to support a husband or husband and kids. If you look at sacrifice often overlooked in our society. My wife, Lindsay Lindsay abandoned her production career to follow my career to help raise Kyler Monroe, help me pursue podcasting to stand up dreams. Hey Lindsay and anyone else who sacrifices like that for others.

A lot of dick kids in the world, but also a lot of selfless courageous mother fuckers who give up a lot in the name of love. What a crazy brave, awe inspiring thing to do. So much respect to anyone who's done this. Now, without you, those whose names often show up in the history books, well, those names don't get written in there. Jose gets that accounting degree in Queens College

while also working as a dishwasher at the Ritsey 21 Club in Manhattan. That place was still around just a year ago, 21 West 52nd Street. Been at that location since 1929, after opening in Greenwich Village in 1921, but then COVID shutdowns fucking killed it. How sad, just closed down and just couldn't quite open back up.

After graduating 1967 Jose Pasta CPA exam, started kicking ass and business. For the duration of his career, he was credited with being highly intelligent and diligent. Also widely disliked and labeled by many is arrogant and rude to co-workers abrasive to subordinates. He would pass those traits along to his kids who would not get the highly intelligent and diligent parts.

I just seem to get the arrogant rude and abrasive parts. He was to quote one source aggressive with his ambitions. Couples first son Joseph Laumannandez soon to be known to the world as Lyle, born on January 10th, 1968. Soon after Jose is sent to Chicago to audit Lion container, a client of Cooper's and a live brand. Oh, oh Cooper's and a live brand.

How many times have they showed up in the time? Never, 25 year old new father. Don't press the management of Lion container that they asked him to come to work for them full time as the company's controller. Jose Kitty, their infant son, now moved to Hinstale, Illinois, small suburb, west of Chicago. Kitty becomes full-time mom Jose works hard turns Lion Container into a heavily profitable company.

In 1970, just two years later, Jose, 26 years old, named president of president of line container holy shit. That's impressive Certainly the guy had business talent But the position would not last long Jose the chairman the board they get into a fight over the direction the company that ends in Jose's Termination, so he's who's fiery. He's a fiery guy 1971 he goes to work at Hertz as an executive in the car leasing division The Menendez family now moves from Illinois to the East Coast, settles in central New Jersey where they will remain for many years. Jose and Kitty's second son, Eric born on November 27, 1971. 1973, just two years after his hire, Jose becomes Hertz's chief financial officer. Hot damn. He's only 29. Jose rose through Hertz's

ranks and 1979 when he was only 35, he becomes their worldwide general manager. Dude is fucking crushing it. Not sure how much he was paid for that position. And there's no position with that exact title now from what I can tell, but because Hertz is a publicly traded company, if you do a little digging, you can figure out how much their top executives make. Angela Brawf, president of International,

as your title, her position sounds close to what his was to me. Please send it in update. If this info is wrong, Angela, she's not one of the top three positions, but part of the next tier of executives. And in 2020, she had a base salary of $625,000. Plus, because her position required her to live in her national in the UK, or at least

did at the time of her hire, an additional allowance of 9,000 a month, which is another 108,000. Plus, and this is big bonus structure, her t's hit 60% of the company's profit and performance expectations for the year. Expectations made clear to her when she took the job. It's 100% bonus, another 625K. If the company exceeds profit expectations by certain markers, it's a 100% bonus, another 625K. If the company exceeds profit expectations by certain markers, it's a 150% bonus, which is 937K, almost a million. So really her salary

was like, you know, the likely between 1.3 and 1.7 million dollars plus a 401K, health insurance, and shares of companies stock a lot of shares a million dollars a year worth of goals are met So Hertz has a great year Angela Braf makes, you know almost 2.7 million dollars That's a you know, it's over 222 thousand dollars a month Hertz did not have a good year in 2020 that a terrible year The failed bankruptcy so maybe she didn't hit those bonuses, but they restructured and now she might be killing it and So maybe she didn't hit those bonuses, but they restructured and now she might be killing it. And Hertz was doing great in the 70s. And I imagine Jose Menendez was making the equivalent of what Angela, you know, makes now. A lot of fucking money. 1980, Jose's career ends at Hertz. Another man's brought in, made president and Jose is reassigned at the Entertainment Division

of RCA, a company that at that time owned Hertz. At RCA, Jose would once again rise up through leadership positions, the RCA corporation was a major American electronics company founded as the radio corporation of America in 1919. Now before it was absorbed in 1986 by General Electric, the dominant electronics and communications firm in the US for over five decades. The iconic 30 rocket New York's Rockefeller Center used to be known as the RCA building. Columbia TriStar Home Entertainment, now Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, that came out of RCA. They built radios for satellites, radio and TV broadcasts or studios. They made the first fucking vinyl records and vinyl record players in the sense and size.

We know them as today. They were huge and they had their own record label. And in 1901, Jose was assigned to RCA's record division, which was saddled with overpaid aging recording stars. He tried to turn the division around by signing big bands like the Eurythmics. Dude, sign the Eurythmics. That's interesting. I think any fucking Lennox, sweet dreams are made of these Jose Menendez signed her numerous platinum records for RCA by 1985 at the age of 41 Jose had risen to become the executive vice president chief operating officer for RCA records worldwide operations and he made $15,000 a year.

No, he made so much. I'm sure trying to get into finding a comparable examples, looking at the hierarchy of Warner Brothers records execs, a record label I recorded five albums with, a company that used some creative accounting methods to keep profit away from me. They're top five corporate positions, each are in between 1.8 and just over $10 million annually.

So again, I'm betting Jose's making low seven figures a year. He continues to gain a reputation for ruthlessness at work. This ruthlessness, he allegedly extended to his family life as well. Let's talk about how he and Kitty interacted this time. From the beginning of their marriage, Kitty always gave Jose the freedom, the space to do what he thought was best for the fam.

Work as many hours as needed. We'll move where we need to move. Do whatever we need to do to sacrifice for your career. He seems to have taken advantage of some of that power on freedom. And he had several mistresses. I was a head apparently many affairs, the longest last year one beginning in 1978 with a woman named Louise, Jose Louise traveled together, even entertained others as a couple in her townhouse in Manhattan. A 1981 kitty uncovered one of Jose's relationships moved out of the house for several

days. He managed to convince her, begged her to come home. Apparently, she came home just barely in 1986 at about the same time that Jose's career at RCA was coming to an end. Kitty found out about Louise and then Jose came clean about a bunch of other affairs and sent Kitty into a depressive episode so severe she contemplated suicide. So they were killing it financially but clearly also trouble in paradise. It's some marital problems.

Not sure Jose was a pedophile but he often doesn't come across as the best dude in this suck. Financially successful, fucking dominant business person. But also maybe a very selfish dude. Let's go back to the 70s, earlys, but I also don't know their marriage. I don't know what else was going on to be fair. Let's go back to the 70s early 80s now. The years of the Menendez brothers childhood.

Now that we know a bit about their parents, Lyle and Eric both spent the majority of their childhoods in Princeton, New Jersey, right, born on January 10th, 68 November 27th, 71, Lyle born right before the line container job, Eric born during the Eric born during the early Hertz years. And they grew up watching their dad, you know, making, making that sweet, Hertz money in the early childhoods. And how weird, by the way, that Hertz is number one spokesman during the time that Jose Menendez was a big exec there was OJ Simpson, the guy whose double murder trial would pull

national attention, you know, away from the trial of the Menendez brothers. Lyle was born in New York right before the family moved to Chicago for that line job. Yeah, Eric born in Blackwood, New Jersey. Blackwood 53 miles from Princeton. The family would actually live in an affluent area just outside Princeton. The boys would attend the Princeton day school, another tuition, or I'm sorry, annual tuition at this school today, $33,530 for kindergarten through fourth grade, right? $33,539,220 for grades five and six,

and then $41,090 for grades seven through 12. I'm sure it's a fantastic school. But come on, over 33K a year for kindergarten, for kindergarten garbage, come on, gosh dang, no coloring books are that good. What kind of snacks those little fuckers eatin'? Caviar instead of goldfish crackers, artesian handcrafted puttin' cups, organic farm to table jello,

or the chicken nuggets made by chef who studied in Peri is the recess monitor, one of the fucking American Ninja warriors was goin' on there. Uh, the boys were remembered as being academically average here. Mostly remembered later for being exceptionally close emotionally inseparable. Teachers at the school also felt that both boys were immature for their ages, had learning problems. Uh, when those reports made their way back to Jose, he continually insisted that his sons were nothing short of brilliance. Of course they were.

They were his sons. He didn't dominate it. It hurts. We told his sons were not the cream of the crop. They had to be elite. They came from his elite balls because of his refusal to listen to feedback from their teachers. Jose effectively prevented them from getting any help with their learning issues.

The boy's home life was by all accounts, ran by dad who ruled a house with an iron fist. Jose was incredibly strict, ran a tight ship at the office and a tight ship at home. He basically dictated every aspect of his family's lives, including what they could eat, what they could spend time with, what they were allowed to read. If he asked, you know, they had to be able to tell him where they were, what they were doing every minute of every day. I guess in those kids didn't get to eat as many lunchables and not to achieve Doritos' I did growing up. Jose, kind of a dick. Beginning when the brothers were in grade school, Jose would pose questions about current events

at the dinner table, make sure his kids were kept abreast of world affairs, make sure they thought about their answers. I don't hate that dinner policy, actually. Occasionally, Eric was allowed to answer, but most of the questions fell on Lyle. As the brothers grew older, the questions became more complex not answering them meant humiliation investigative journalist Menendez expert Robert Rand didn't expand on what kind

of humiliation they received my mind goes to their data mocking them when they're young children for not knowing things that you know young kids would never know. Well my name is Eric I'm a second grade. I get summarized the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in five-tenths or less. The invasion is a tremendous threat to global security and to Pakistan's sovereignty, Eric. What about oil supplies? In the nearby Persian Gulf, Eric,

how much can Soviet hostilities fuck things up for our oil-based economy? No more private school for you. If our factories close, not enough gas for our cars, the economy collapses, Eric, past the potatoes. Wake the fuck up. And if you're gonna cry, do not spoil your juice. Please leave the table.

Your tears, mixing with your mac and cheese, wipe that up with an African. Make it look like a goddamn fool. Jose also decided that the boy should be a sports prodigies, like he and his parents. Jose chose tennis for his son. Say, I guess they didn't choose it. He was like your playing tennis when they were 12 and 9.

Well from the outside, I look like these kids had it made inside the Menendez home. Even if molestation was not occurring, the pressure to perform at a high level and make their dad proud was taking his toll. They began to grind their teeth. They develop stomach pains, began to stutter. Other schools reported them having anger issues. By age 14, Lyall is still playing with stuffed animals, wet in his bed, which is not necessarily age-appropriate. Were these issues stemming from living in a rigid authoritarian home, run by an emotionally abusive perfectionist, or was something more insidious occurring?

It was Jose physically and sexually abusing the boys, like the boys were later claimed. Three first cousins, who spent a lot of time in the Menendez home in the 70s and early 80s would testify at their first highly publicized trial that they believed Jose was more than just an asshole. For several summers, beginning in 1976, the boys first cousin, Diane Vandermohlen,

who was 17 in 1976, came to stay with the Menendez family to help out around the house,, the boys first cousin, Diane Vandermohlen, who was 17 and 1976, came to stay with the Menendez family to help out around the house, watch the boys help Kitty, you know, kind of like being nanny, et cetera. Diane was one of Kitty's sister's daughters. And Vandermohlen said that there were all sorts of weird sexuality in the Menendez house. One night after dinner, Jose was with the boys upstairs before eight year old Lyle came down to her basement room and said he wanted to touch her down there, indicating her genitals. Then he said that he and his dad had been touching each other on the genitals. She later said at the trial, I went to get Kitty and tell her, but Kitty didn't believe

me. After that, Kitty dragged Lyle upstairs to bed and it was never discussed after that. She told, you know, Vander Molen that, you know, he was a liar. Obviously, that doesn't look good. Vander Molen remains convinced to this day that Lyle and Eric were molested by their parents. On another occasion, Diane said that she and Lyle were watching television together. He suddenly climbed on top of her, fondled her breasts. She pushed him away and he stopped. Signed a molestation.

Possibly, yeah. Another cousin who would later testify, and I only kind of like hesitate because of the things you're gonna find out about their accusations later. Another cousin who would later testify about abuse the men in his home was one of Kitty's brothers, sons, Alan Anderson.

He spent three summers with his cousins in the 70s. Anderson said that Eric and Lyle were instructed by their parents not to show emotion because it was sign of weakness. His uncle Jose on Kitty themselves often engaged in violent arguments and displayed a rational behavior. Kitty got angry, she clenched her knuckles, get her teeth until her neck veins bulged, standing up Anderson demonstrated her rage for the jurors.

Sometimes in a frenzy, he said she'd walk into the kitchen, smash glass cups and saucers. He'd yell Kitty, she'd snap out of it. He said it'd walk into the kitchen, smash glass cups and saucers. He'd yell kitty. If you'd snap out of it, he said it was frightening. Jose, he said, would whip his sons with the belts until they were bruised. He dragged them into their rooms, leave them locked inside for hours. He testified. As soon as Jose took either one of the boys into their rooms, the door was locked behind them and Kitty made it clear. You didn't go down the hallway.

I saw him grab their brothers when they didn't want to go, just lift them off their feet. Said, Kitty would turn the TV up and then you'd hear the, you know, the sound of the belts. Anderson also heard many late night emotional fights between Jose and Kitty. And the next morning he said he noticed bruises on her arms and neck. Anderson did not witness any sexual abuse though. But after playing tennis, he said he sometimes, uh, he said sometimes they would all shower together.

I know that sounds super weird. I believe though he's referring to them showering in a big locker room shower designed for many people. I still would want to do that. I still don't do that with the kids, but I know it's somewhat common. I used to be more common and that on its own, not necessarily an indicator of sexual abuse. The most damning testimony regarding someone at not named Liler Eric Manendez saying that the boys of insects should be used would come from another cousin Andy Knoll. He's the son of one of Jose's brothers. Andy said that during the summer of 82 when Eric was 12 and he was 10, the two of them were playing war games in a field nearby with Eric in near the house when Eric told Andy that

his dad gave him massages and that sometimes his dad the message is penis and sometimes those messages hurt and that obviously sounds very bad and he said eric made him pinky promise not to tell anyone and if it weren't for two of these witnesses i don't think i would even entertain the men and his brother sexual abuse claims but these witnesses have never strayed from their stories that doesn't make me wonder however these stories would never come out until the trial and erics lead defense attorney will meet her soon. It seems like she got the brothers to make some

wild-ass claims. And I do wonder if she kind of felt around with some of the cousins or maybe Lyle and Erick did to see who could maybe, you know, manufacture some stories. Why I'm saying that, I think will make sense later. Not long after this encounter, I suppose he occurred, Eric's older brother starts to date. Lyle's first romance comes when he's 15 and the fall of 82. His relationship with his girlfriend, Stacy Feldman, innocent and chased. Stacy managed to manage the men's varsity tennis team at the Princeton Day School, Lyle, the number one ranked player on the team. Their first date was to see Raiders of the Lost Ark. Stacy and Lyle fell in love. They walked around Princeton, hand in hand, which was again,

you know, Roole school rules, Rebel Rebel. Teachers and administrators let this infraction pass because they felt that Stacy and Lyle were awkward kids who needed each other. At the end of the school year, Lyle and Stacy voted most married by their classmates. That's cute. Nice period of wholesomeness in the midst of this true crime story. In 1986 through context, Jose had made while working at RCA, he gets the job that takes the family to Hollywood. Chobies! That's how they do it in Hollywood!

It becomes president of live entertainment, in Los Angeles. A division of Carole Co. Pictures Incorporated. Live now defunct was a video distribution and duplication company for Carole Co pictures incorporated. Live now defunct was a video distribution and duplication company for Carole Co. Uh, Carole Co best known at this time for producing the Rambo movies. Carole Co would produce some monster movies, total recall, universal soldier, basic instinct, cliffhanger.

I watched all those. Uh, I'm sure on set or, you know, at parties, Jose was meeting and bullshit with big stars like Silvestre's alone when he worked there. He jumps into the chance to become a involved in the film business in such a big way. The Cuban defector now a Hollywood mogul. The uproot is family minus Lyle. That's spring. He was about to graduate high school, moves him to the West Coast, you know, Lyle stays

New Jersey, graduated Princeton, Eric moves, you know, during his sophomore year, which had to have sucked. At live, Jose will turn a company running at a loss into a profitable one. That was his specialty, turning companies around and be paid roughly $2 million a year to do so, which is the equivalent of $4.7 million a year today. Crazy that the dollar has weakened that much in terms of spending power. This is 33 years, right? Makes me, or that made me wonder if the inflation calculator I was using was wrong, but check

this out. In the third quarter of 1988, the median sales price for a household in the US was, you're ready to be depressed and enraged $150,000. 115 in 1988, median sales price for a US home right now, 404,700. That's fucking crazy. Federal minimum wage, and at the time, 88, 335 an hour, 725 now, that is scary.

Minimum wage jumped more than double, 216%, but home prices went up to 352%. Truly a lot harder for the average American to buy their first home now than it was in 86 or 88, sorry, extremely unfortunate. And I can jump further into, it costs this much in 88 versus it cost this much now. Working class, modern Americans are for sure more economically disadvantaged now than we're decades ago. Wormhole, but I don't want to distract further from today's topic. I'll try and stay focused. Most important thing to know as far as what pertains to this story, Mr. Menenda is making the equivalent of almost $5 million a year and had been making a very nice living for about, you know, 20 years years already. This family is fucking loaded when they head out to California.

Kitty not so positive about the move. She'd spent the past 16 years building a life outside of a marriage. Friends, support group, outside of a marriage that had struggled. She'd want to leave her network of friends or her dream house in Princeton. I wish I knew more about that dream house. How nice it was. Only info I could find described it as a moderately sized, tutor style home with the well used backyard tennis court, talked about the neighborhood's artificial lake on West Shore Drive in the Elmeridge Park section.

A Hopewell township. That township just west of Princeton, just north of Trenton, about 70 miles from Manhattan. Maybe what helped lure her out to California was, you know, a more opulent living situation. The Menendez is first settled in Calabases, upper middle class suburb in the northwestern part of the San Fernando Valley. Calabases, famous now for being the affluent area. The Kardashians call home, Will Smith, Drake, Justin Bieber, lots of celebs call Calabases home.

23 miles from Hollywood, 18 miles from Malibu The Menendez is occupied one house while building a more spectacular house on 13 fucking acres with mountain top views and Calabassus so they're crushing it Eric attends Calabassus high is a sophomore Away from his brother for the first time, you know the the comparisons were often made between them at the Princeton day school He discovers his own identity here. He makes friends with a group of boys who are like him Describe his arrogant with the rebellious streak. So some pompous rich kids as soon as he gets a girlfriend doesn't sound like he wanted one Kitty. Oh, yeah, not long after he gets there. He gets a girlfriend. Sounds like he doesn't want didn't want one

Sorry, kitty was worried. He was gay and ordered him to get a girlfriend according to various sources. How super fucking weird of true. I cannot imagine ordering Kyler, Irman Road to date, and you want ever. It's so weird to me when parents just set these when my kid has to do this and then my kid has to do that and my kid has to do this. What? You don't have a girlfriend? What? You don't have a boyfriend? You haven't applied for this school yet? What's wrong with you? Just like just like planning out their whole life in front of them. That is fucking weird. And especially like ordering them to date, I would never do that with one of the kids. Glad your grades are good.

Making friends yada yada. Now get a fucking boyfriend, Monroe. And it has to be a boy. No girls. Go find some dick. Make your dad proud. The fuck is wrong with some people. So much actually. Eric found an older girl at Calabasas High but their relationship was short-lived, right, because he didn't want a date or, and this is weird at a party. Apparently they got into an argument

and then Eric locked her in a room and wouldn't let her leave. That's creepy. According to witnesses, she screamed and yelled. He wouldn't let her out for a long time and then you know, when he finally did let her out, she broke things off immediately because she was not an idiot. As he tried to control her like dead controlled him at home. What's happening here?

Eric later had another girlfriend Janis whom Kitty and Jose apparently both liked Which was nice because they didn't like Lyle's girlfriend's whom Kitty, I guess found cheap usually She's not highly of Janis Perhaps perhaps Eric's most important relationship at Calabas is high, which was Craig Signarelli. Greg was captain of the tennis team. Eric was the number one ranked player on the team. Eric would actually achieve a ranking of 44th in the US for 1800 players. Greg and Eric spent a great deal of time together, even wrote a screenplay entitled Friends.

They had big dreams. The script was a 62 page thriller about you're going to love this. A son from a wealthy family who reads his parents will and learns that upon their deaths he will inherit 157 million. So he fucking murders them. Considering what will happen to, you know, his folks pretty soon. That's obviously a little disturbing. Lyle meanwhile back in Princeton, he committed to two things, going to Princeton University and staying with his girlfriend, Stacey. Lyle and Stacey often talked about getting married

and having children while lavish jewelry and other gifts on Stacey that he bought with his parents' money. It doesn't sound like he ever had a job. Stacey ended the relationship when she went off to college, though. She realized she wanted more of life and she was too young to get married. Lyle is devastated, unsuccessfully tries to win her back.

This year, 19, my God, why do I keep writing it? Sorry, my notes is 86. Is that right? Is it 86 or 88? Oh shit, it is 86. I went back and forth there. So remember when I was talking about federal minimum wage and all that kind of stuff?

I started correcting notes that I was going to 88. Not that anyone's like, what the fuck? That sounds that I was going to 88. That's an 81. It's like, what the fuck? That sounds like, those sounds like 88 numbers, not 86 numbers. But for factualness sake, we're in 86. Not 88. Come on, Cummins.

Why don't you make one typo in 32,000 words. 1986 was kind of a kick in the dick for Lyle. As he air, he loses his girl, also does not get into Princeton. The application is rejected. Father not pleased. Lyle enrolled in a local community college. Submit another application to Princeton for the 1987 school year. When he waits to hear back, he, you know, while he does, he meets and begins to date Jamie Pissaric now. The waitress at a local Princeton restaurant. Jamie also attend his player five years older than Lyle. Kitty and Jose don't like her. I think she's a gold digger. Lyle's second Princeton application except

in the spring of 87 for the fall 87 semester. Father pleased about that. But despite that good news, more friction on the way for the men and his family. During the summer of 87 Lyle and Jamie announced that they're engaged. Father, not pleased. At 19 Jose felt Lyle was too young to get married. Despite having got married at that exact same age himself. That's how we dads do. Don't do the dumb shit that we did. Surely before Lyle was to begin Princeton, Jamie moves to Alabama though to teach tennis, but then Lyle follows her there for the summer. Jose worried his son will get stuck in Alabama. He secretly arranged us to sponsor Jamie on a European tennis tour

now, thinking if he can just get her out of the country, Lyle will move on. That's a sneaky ass dad move. Doesn't work. Lyle follows. Now Lyle is fucking the girl. Daddy doesn't want him to fucking Europe instead of Alabama on Daddy's dime. Lyle does return to New Jersey though for his freshman year at Princeton in the fall and immediately obsets father again. I'm sorry, father. His first semester of the academic pressure proves too much for him and he gets caught plagiarizing. Cop is his lab partner's homework in his psych 101 class. This is a serious violation of Princeton's honor code, a homework of the university had been

in place since 1893. He has to go report to the honor committee, loud doesn't tell his dad about this. Instead, he, uh, his dad, Jose hears about it from his sister Terry, Jose then sends Lyle a statement to read before the committee, stepping in here to solve his grown-ass son's problems. I feel like that's not usually a good call. Lindsay gets annoyed at me sometimes for not wanting to help Kylerman Rowne certain ways. You know how do you make sure you finish that homework project?

Fuck no. And I won't, but it's 50% of his grade. Good. And if he fucks it, he's going to be in trouble. I'll take away some of this stuff. Let your kids follow from time to time. Make a mess of things when the stakes are high enough to sting, but not so high they're going to ruin their lives. Like kids fail when the stakes are lower than they're going to be

when they're adults so they can learn how to recover, how to clean up their own messes, I think. But you know, I'm just, I'm just some devil dead, some big meaning. Lyle like normal, I guess, based on numerous accounts, you know, totally fine with letting daddy come and clean up his mess. After a four hour hearing, though, the honor committee doesn't give a shit what Jose thinks and they find Lyle guilty of plagiarism. They suspend him for a year, tell him he can return an 88, father very not pleased. He, he, uh, even flies to put our Princeton for a follow up meeting with Princeton's president and can't change his mind.

Princeton doesn't need his money. They have tens of thousands of wealthy alumni donors. Lyleus humiliated, he wants to transfer to UCLA or the University of Pennsylvania, but Jose not having it. His dad decides it's Princeton or nothing for you. You gotta clean up this mess during his year off, Jose would keep Lyle busy. Gives Lyle a job at live entertainment. Lyleus responsible for reviewing expense reports and looking for ways to improve efficiency, reduce costs,

and he is fucking terrible. He's treated like any other employee. I do love that. Has to make appointments to see his dad. Lila apparently doesn't make too many appointments, so because the offer doesn't show up for work. He ignores orders, he regularly arrives late or not at all, he's at the classic son of the business owner.

He does shit like calling sick You know and just go play tennis when the weather's good Finally one of Jose's associates goes to him complains about Lyle Everyone knew he was just working there because he was the boss of son Jose asks this associate. Well, what would you do if Lyle? You know was not my son. I guess this guy said I'd fire him balls of steel and Jose does he does not fire this brave man. He fires his son, Lyle.

So good. But now Lyle starts acting out in new ways. In April of 88, two burglaries take place at the New Jersey office of the Sierra Club and the office of the Princeton Friends of Open Spaces. And these burglaries office equipment is stolen with the value of about $1100. Those offices housed on the same property that the Menendez family owned, right, before the movie California. The house in which Lael had lived before entering Princeton was one of the places broken in due. Jose and Kite had sold it November of 87. The police didn't

know who committed these burglaries and both burglaries. The burglar entered the home through a second floor bathroom like they knew the place. The police finally able to connect Lael to the burglaries after a confidential police informant came forward. But Lyle would not be charged because by the time all this kind of happened, he was already in jail for, you know, slightly more serious charges. Not satisfied with the New Jersey burglaries. Since July of 88, Eric and Lyle during the summer between Eric's junior and senior high school before Lyle's to try his hand at Princeton again, the two boys begin breaking into homes

in Calabases. They burglarize the homes owned by parents of their friends, are surprised by the large amounts of cash and jewelry they're able to steal. It's also come up with a genius way to get more spending money. I have to ask dad for more of an allowance, get a lecture about the value of hard work, yada yada. The amount of money and jewelry the Lyle and Eric stole stole estimated to be around a hundred thousand dollars. So that's quite a bit large enough to be classified as a felony offense called grand theft burglary. The LA County Sheriff's Detective who investigated the burglaries gets a break in the

case after Eric is stopped for a driving violation in Calabasas and stolen property found in his car trunk. Later, the detectives discovered that a safe in one of the homes that the brothers had burglarized have been found in another home burglarized by the brothers, these two dipshits. Worried they were going to get caught, they returned one of the safes they took to the wrong fucking house. I love that. Eric, think.

Where do we put this back? We need to put it back where you found it. I don't know, Lyle. This room looks very different than I did a few days ago. Different paint, different layout. They must have remodeled super fast or something. The detective soon is led to Eric and Lyle, Menendez. Father, really not pleased now, Jose's furious,

aware that a felony could mean jail time, possibly prison time, he hires Gerald Shaliff, a well-respected criminal defense attorney to talk to the DA. Shaliff able to work out an agreement with LA County District Attorney's Office that will absolve Lyle of any participation. The Bergeries, if Eric takes the fall for everything because Eric's juvenile and doesn't have a previous record. And Shayliffe able to convince a judge

to sentence Eric to community service with the homeless and for the brothers to both undergo psychological counseling. So they get out of it. Jose writes a check for $11,000 to the victims, for stuff that was stolen. These burglaries lead to the Menendez family, Menendez is moving to Beverly Hills, because they're neighbors in Calabasas. Now not their biggest fans. Neighbors, even family friends, talk about how uncomfortable they were with the fact that Lyla and Eric didn't seem to face any consequences.

It didn't seem to be remorseful. Almost overnight, the family of Band-Dance Calabasas, moved to Beverly Hills, where Jose buys a house. Doesn't have to sell the Calabasas house. He just keeps that house, buys another house, 722 North Elm Drive, 6th bedroom, Mediterranean style, Villa, based a block off sunset, the off the sunset strip with the Red Tile roof, courtyard, swimming pool, tennis court, guest house, built in 1927 rebuilt 1974. This home would previously been owned by, you may have heard of them, Elton John, Prince Michael Jackson, other huge stars,

a Saudi prince once rented it for $35,000 a month. Six bedrooms, eight bathrooms, over 9,000 square feet. Eric transfers to Beverly Hills High for his senior year of high school. When Lyle returns to Princeton in the fall of 88, he continues his relationship with Jamie Pissaric. Lyle's return to Princeton begins badly when he discovers that he's assigned a roommate and I don't want one daddy. I want it a single. And according to the Hall student advisor, when he sees the belongings of another student

in his room, he just literally throws their shit out into the hole. Holy fucking privilege. These kids, Lyle's a grown-ass man now actually, but they are fucking brats. Once again, I was a cumst of Lyle's defense. He let her to print and apologize and pays for some damages and buys a single room for Lyle. Oh boy. February of 1989, Lyle's girl Jamie introduces him to a guy named Donovan Goodrow.

Donovan came to Princeton after spending two years at a junior college in Northern California. Always wanted to travel, made his way across the country, during his stopover in Princeton. Donovan finds out he has a lot of cotton, common with Lyle and somehow Lyle convinces Donovan to start doing his homework. Nice. Lyle consistently showing zero interest in working for anything. During the spring of 1989, Lyle and Jamie break up and he begins to a data model named Christie. Christie is 39 years older than Lyle, father and mother. Again, not pleased.

Once again, this relationship upsets both Jose and Kitty. Also another issue, even with his pal, his pal Donovan, you know, he's still doing his homework, but Lyle is over Princeton. He wants to transfer to UCLA. Live that SoCal party life all the time. Be reunited, be reunited with Eric Josef for Bidson. Surely after this request is shot down, Lyle and Donovan's friendship ends when Lyle accuses Donovan of stealing from his room. Summer of 1989 now. It starts off great for Jose Mnendez. His contract at live is renegotiated and extended until December 31, 1991. In recognition of Jose's importance to live, the company invests in a key man life insurance policy that will guarantee that if he dies, his family gets $5 million.

Jose has to name a beneficiary soon, has to take a physical examination. It's expected that Jose will name Kitty as the beneficiary, which was customary under California community property laws. Lyle and Eric would soon come after this money. Speaking of his sons, Lyle pisses him off again. It's his girlfriend, Christie Pregnant, pisses off his dad, Jose. According to Lyle later, Jose then intimidates her into having an abortion. Once again, daddy steps in to clean up the mess. Kitty later told one of her friends that Jose paid Christy $100,000 to get rid of their

pregnancy and stay the fuck away from his son. Holy shit. And this works. She does leave. Also that summer, Jose finds out Lyle is flunking out of Princeton. Even though Donovan is writing a lot of his papers, he's still flunking out. Does Jose now punish his son? No, he kind of rewards him.

In order to encourage him to exert more effort in school, he buys him a fucking condo just outside of the campus. That'll teach him. Conno has two bedroom suites. That'll be perfect when Kitty and Jose come to visit. They'll stay in one of the bedrooms without intruding on Lyle. It'll be a great place for him to focus and study, or party and just not fucking care about school.

Lyle asked Kitty to decorate the condo for him. She does. Then Jose and Kitty find out that academic probation, not the only problem Lyle having to Princeton or was having shortly after he came home to Beverly Hills for the summer. Jose and Kitty notified by mail that Princeton is placing Lyle on disciplinary probation. After some pool tables in his residence hall severely damaged during a party he'd thrown. Now Jose and Kitty, then also find out that Jose, or yeah, that Lyle had just gotten them

banned from their old Princeton country club as well. Lyle and Donovan before they parted ways took a nighttime golf cart ride across the club's greens, caused a huge amount of damage spending cookies, doing all the kinds of crazy shit. When Jose gets wind of this, he has to make full restitution to the country club before he can be allowed back in. Right daddy steps in, fixes things yet again. And now Jose is at his fucking wit's end. And he's not happy with Eric at this time either.

Eric doesn't seem to have a life plan. You know, just wants to party UCLA, spend his parents money. He and Kitty are sick of these two dipshits being continual, never ending disappointments. Kitty and Jose now threaten to write Eric and Lyle out of their inheritance. This is important. Jose's first will have been written in 1980. The will stated that if he died or if he and Kitty died in the common disaster, Lyle and Eric would receive the entire estate. But now they want a new will that's going to cut their kids out of that entirely.

Eric and Lyle panic. Source to say that Jose didn't seem to notice any changes in his son's behavior after he makes this threat, but Kitty did. She supposedly is agitated after this leading up to the murders, constantly locking her bedroom door, which was new, keeping a rifle in her closet for safe keeping, which was also new.

She no longer allowed Lyle and Eric to have keys to their house. When the brothers came home at night, right, she would let them in. Even though she had to be awakened from sleep, something was frightening, Kitty. She was definitely concerned about her sons, that would be revealed at her murder trial. She'd spoken to her therapist not long before they killed her. On July 19th, 1989, almost a month before her death, she told her therapist, she thought her sons were sociopaths. They've talked about sociopaths a lot here.

Psychiatr term used to describe a person who lacks the conscience. Kidney's therapist made notes this session, indicated that Kidney was concerned that her sons were narcissistic, lacked consciences and exhibited signs of being sociopaths. Despite her fear, the four continued to live under the same roof for the remainder of her life.

Lyle is 21, Eric 18th is time on August 19th, the men in his family. Charters a boat from arena Del Rey and goes shark fishing. According to the crew of the boat, they did not act like a happy family. Jose stayed in the back of the boat and fished. Kitty C-Sick stayed in the boats cabin. Lyle and Eric hung out not fishing at the bow of the boat. This would be the last full day of Jose and Kitty's life. Now we're up to August 20th, 1989, a Sunday, the big day.

Jose is 45, Kitty's 47, right? So young for what they've accomplished. Kitty still has the same blonde hair, green eyes, and one of that beauty pageant, a young woman. Jose could pass for someone much younger. Handsome guy, thick head of black hair, tone body from a good diet and playing lots of tennis. Just after one p.m. this day, Jose answered the home phone when his kids form a tennis coach and friend Perry Berman or Berman, excuse me, Perry Berman returns a call, uh, is returning a call from Lyle.

He tells him the boys are shopping at the nearby Beverly Center mall. Lyle calls him back around five p.m. from his parents house, they make tentative plans to meet in Santa Monica at 10 p.m. The rest of the afternoon passes uneventfully that evening after Lyle and Eric leave the house, Jose and Kitty relaxing on the couch in the den, eating ice cream and strawberries. The house is silent and empty. The maid had the day off to her starting dose off as the James Bond thriller, the spy who loved me plays on the VCR around 10 p.m. a teenage girl standing outside her home located down the street from the Menendez mansion, waiting for a boyfriend. She sees a small car drive up, stopping in front of the Menendez home. Two men inside the car, Lyle and Eric. They exits. One man goes to the trunk, likely to grab the shotguns,

the other walks towards the house. The Menendez mansion set back from the street, shaded by some dense foliage. A high iron fence surrounds the mansion, and there are iron gates barring the entrance to the semi-circular driveway in front of the home. That night, the gates located in front of the driveway are open. The home security system had been turned off. Girl watches the men disappear into the house. Lyle and Eric enter the home, walk through the French doors into the study. They walk down the hallway towards the family room, aka the den located in the back of the house. They arrived at the den just a few minutes after 10 p.m. So many questions about this that they will never answer or answer truthfully in my mind. What was their mood? Emotional? Do they consider

calling the whole thing off at the last moment? Were they scared that their parents might possibly fire back? Did they go to prison for this? Our mom did have that new rifle. Could they've been giddy? Big shitty and grins on their faces? Thinking about spending all that money once her parents were dead and gone, not giving a fuck about their murders? Did they shoot first when they entered the den?

Did they say some heinous stuff before then? Neighbors would later remember hearing what sounded like firecrackers, few minutes after 10. What just missed it is nothing to be concerned about. When they walked in carrying shotguns, the room was illuminated only by the light coming from the TV, Jose dozing on the tan leather couch, sitting at the end nearest the door leading to the hallway. Jose's legs stretched out in front of him his feet on the coffee table, along with he and Kitties two ice cream dishes. Kittie lying under a blanket her body stretched out across the couch, her head and Jose's lap, The tube had married for 26 years.

Despite Jose's infidelity, seemed as if they were very much in love still. Either Lyle or Eric entered the room first. The two would never say exactly how it all went down. And one of them pointed a 12 gauge Mossberg shotgun at their father and squeeze the trigger. The first shot, shadowed the glass, splintered the wood on the French doors behind the couch. Second shot, as Jose started to wake, hits him in the left elbow. A third shot hits him in the right arm. Now he knows, he fucking knows who's shooting at him.

His final moments, watching his two sons gun him down in cold blood. As he watches arms screaming out in pain, blood popping out of his body, his wife, Kitty is screaming behind him, one of his sons. Again, we don't know if it was Lyle or Eric, goes up behind Jose, places the shotgun near their father's head and blows the back of his fucking head off. His limb body now slumps over the couch, hands resting on his stomach, feet on the floor.

Meanwhile, Kiti finding herself in a fucking nightmare. Obviously, the first few shots had woken her up. Her clothes, skin, splattered with blood, body tissue. She now stands up, tries to run away from her murder of sons, the two boys she carried in her womb for nine fucking months each. The baby she'd held against her breast seconds after the lungs filled with air for the first time. She has just watched them murder her husband, their father. She has another coming for her. This is some Greek tragedy shit. After most of Jose's head

is blown off, one of them now fires at her. She turns and flees shooting her in the right leg near the calf. A second shot hits her right arm. She falls down between the couch and coffee table, struggling to stand again. She slips in her and Jose's blood falls back down desperately tries to run away. I imagine she's screaming. Another shot brings her down again as she now lays on the floor. Eric and Lyle fire fire several more shots into their mom riddling her body with bullet holes Jose and Kitty would be shot a total of 15 times

Kyle was next Her Kitty was next hit in the left thigh from a range so close her leg shattered Then she was shot in the right arm then the left breast Perforates her left lung a quarter of blood flows into her chest cavity Despite all of this carnage forensic experts later determined that she is still alive at this point. She continues to breathe, tries to crawl away from her sons, but she can't. Eric and Lyle out of ammunition now, they pause unsure of what to do next. One of them runs outside of the car to get more ammo comes back in.

They reload their shotguns with bird shot now instead of the ball bearing size pellets they'd used before. One of the brothers, then, you know, takes a lens over the coffee table puts a shotgun against Kitty's cheek, pulls the trigger, obliterating her face, shatters her skull. Then the brothers shoot both Jose and Kitty and their left knees. Why? Because they wanted to make it look like an execution. That's the thought.

Like professional killers, organized crime, hitmen were the ones who did this. They now carefully gather their shell cases from the spreading pools of blood covering the couch, floor, and rug. What happens next? Well, trying to find that out made me let a lot of profanities fly out of my mouth for this quality of reporting with so many journalists cranking out so many articles. Man, it's kind of shit. Some instances finding good sources keeps getting harder. You read 10 different sources about what Lyall and Eric did after killing their parents, you're going to get 10 different answers. They went to see Batman.

They went to see License to kill. They went to see Batman, but it was sold out so they saw License to kill instead. They went to see License to kill, but they, that was sold out. So they saw Batman instead. They met up with their old tennis coach, Perry, the Cheesecake Factory. They called Perry to meet up with the Cheesecake Factory, but didn't show. They showered up, changed clothes, tossed their shotguns into a ravine off of Mohol and Drive, then return home or some variation of all the things I just said. A little bit dizzy to put it

all together, but I think I found the right source. Thank you, murder, pedia for using the police report as a source. And a few other sources, including, you know, the LA Times and Robert Rand's book for putting together what probably did happen. Here's what Lyall and Eric told Sergeant Thomas Edmonds, the police detective supervisor, when Eric and Lyall were taking to the police department for questioning, not long after officers arrived at the scene of the crime. Lyall actually answered most of the questions while Eric sobbed. Lyall described how they had played tennis in the morning on the tennis court behind the

house, watched part of a tennis match on TV, then spent the afternoon shopping at the Beverly Center, right, that local affluent shopping mall, which is fancy stores. Around 5 p.m., they said they made plans to get together with a friend, Perry, the former tennis coach at Taste of LA, a local food festival in Santa Monica, brother said they left home around 8 p.m. to go to Westwood Village and see license to kill. The new James Bond film by the line was too long. So they went to Century City Mall to see Batman instead. And they did buy tickets to Batman.

They bought the Batman tickets before the murders, which a lot of sources do not make, a lot of sources don't make that clear. After watching possibly part of the movie, the brothers drive to Santa Monica, uh, get lost on the way, Mr. Friend, that's what they told their cops. It seems most likely, uh, they drove homes straight home and killed their parents after leaving the movie. Afterwards from a pay phone, the brothers call Perry Berman, apologize for not showing up in Santa Monica, said they misunderstood whether it was supposed to meet for a taste of LA. Now they make plans to meet at the cheesecake factory in Beverly Hills,

Intel Burman. They needed to drive home first to get Eric's fake ID so Eric could buy a drink. They did tell Perry that according to testimony later. Other brothers and tell the police that when they returned home, they noticed smoke in the house, especially in the family room. This would later seem odd to officers. No one else would smell smoke. Then Lyle said they walked into the family room, came up on a bloody scene. They would never forget. Lyall told officer Edmunds about his mom's nervous mood or locking the doors, said her mom was on the verge of contemplating suicide. She was so rattled about somebody trying to kill her lately. Edmund asked Lyall who hated his parents enough to try and kill them. He said,

maybe the mob backing up a bit now nearly two hours after the murders at eleven forty seven liles calls the police he did this not long after telling bourbon he'd meet him the cheesecake factory here is how that call began What's the problem? What's the problem? What's the problem? There's a red door right there. Why do you need a red door for you? I can't find the full unedited audio anywhere online, but I found the transcript. Here's the rest. Dispatch.

What? Who? Are they still there? Lyle. Yes. Dispatch. The people who? Lyle. No. Dis, dispatch, they were shot.

Loud Eric, man, don't dispatch talking over the background sounds of screams and loud, shout out Eric, shut up. I have a hysterical person on the phone is the person still there. And then a second dispatcher joins the call. What happened? Have you been able to figure out what happened? Loud, I don't know. Second dispatch, you came home and found who shot.

Loud says my mom and dad, first dispatch. Are they still in the house? The people who did the shooting? Lyle screaming now, Eric, get away from them. Second dispatch, who is the person who is shot? Lyle, my mom and dad. The call was two and a half minutes long. A minute or so later, Michael Budkiss,

Beverly Hills Police Officer and his partner, John Sarnaki, arrive at 722 Elm Drive. After walking around the outside of the mansion for several minutes, the police officers heard screaming, watched as two men ran out of the front door side by side, almost in step. Eric and Lyle ran past the officers through the gate in the front of the driveway, fell to their knees on the grass between the sidewalk and street. Oh my God, I can't believe it.

They screamed. The two cops tried to get information out of the brothers, but Eric seemed completely hysterical running around, even trying to ram his head into a tree at one point. Lyle trying to call him shortly after officer Budkis and Sir Sirnauqi discovered the bodies of Jose and Kitty Menendez, Detective Les Zola receives a call at home from Marvin Ioni, Chief of the Beverly Hills Police Department, informing him that he's been appointed to head the investigation of the Menendez murders.

Zola to 38, considered to be Beverly Hills top investigator. When Zola arrives the Elm Drive mansion, he notices that nothing had been stolen. Although the family room where the murders were committed was messy, it appeared that the clutter was not the result of the kind of ransacking you normally see from robbery It appeared as other victims were acquainted with their killers As all are noticed that there was no forced entry into the home He and other investigators counted over a dozen gunshot wounds between the victims up to 15 Likely 15 including one of the back of mr. Menendez's head which essentially decapitated him another guest against Mrs. Menendez's

Left cheek which literally blew away her eye and nose. It didn't seem like a mob hit. It was clearly a crime of emotion, not a quick and dirty killing. Zola was skeptical of their brothers claims regarding organized crime. He would have grilled the brothers, but they seemed to have a good alibi. And, you know, like I pointed out a while back, very rare for kids to kill their parents. Newspapers run with the mob story. And given the fact that Jose frequently left the alarm system off and the house is gates open, even after his Mercedes-Benz had been stolen from the front circular driveway,

earlier, a police thought that maybe it could have been someone from outside the family. Who would have grudged against Jose and Kitty and did just walk in. Early reports described the crime scene inside as a gang line gang land style killing, noting both Jose and Kitty had been shot in the kneecaps. Early on, the brothers plan was working. The police initially so unconcerned with Lyon Eric in part because of the grief over the loss of their parents, it seemed so authentic. They didn't even test their brother's hands for gunshot residue. Instead, they gave the brother space to console each other. Neighbors even recalled that Eric, the younger of the two brothers, has curled up in a fetal position on the front of the lawn.

And though they'd been questioned the night of the murders, please would not sit down again with Lyle and Eric Menendez until two months later. Three days after Jose and Kitty are murdered August 23rd, Dr. Irwin Golden of the LA County Corners office conducts their autopsies. These autopsies would reveal the sequence of shots that killed them. Dr. Golden found bird shot and Kitty's wound, wounds, which confirmed the investigator's suspicions that Kitty's killers had reloaded their weapons. None of Jose's wounds contained bird shot.

Golden also discovered that the final wounds to the pair were their knees. Odd, if mob members did it, they would have shot the knees first, made no sense to shoot them in the knees after they're already dead. It seemed like someone was trying to make it look like the mob did it. Lyle and Eric staged an elaborate memorial service for Jose and Kitty on August 25, 1989 at the director's guild of America in LA. Also showed up an hour late because they had been on a shopping spree earlier, not kitty. So there were two busy shopping to make it their parents memorial in time. Eric looked

uncomfortable. It did seem like he'd been crying. Lyle appeared calm and cool. August 28, 1989, International Church Service is held at the University of Chapel in Princeton. At the service, Jose, excuse me, Lyle spoke for 30 minutes and recalled how much Jose and Kitty had meant to him. Eric was too upset to speak. Their parents murders affected them differently. Eric unsure whether to begin attending UCLA or devote himself to tennis. Lyle seemed more focused. He decided against continuing with his college education. He knew enough. And he began a plan for a career in business. August 31, 1989, Eric and Lyle hire a computer programmer to erase the files in Kitty's computer. Not suspicious at all. The police learned about Kitty's computer from Glenn Stevens, a friend of Lyle's. Glenn told the police that Lyle

had told him that he erased a new will his parents had written and called a computer expert to ensure that no one would be able to retrieve that file. YEEK! If your seems like to kill them for money, the two months following the murders would be big ones for the Menendez brothers, who seemed to quickly stop grieving. They began their spending spree just four days after their parents' murders. In the weeks after, they disposed of their parents, the brothers spent between $507,000 dollars in a buying blitz.

They got new watches, cars, leases on apartments, even by the restaurant in Princeton, as well as got a new personal tennis coach, Mark Hefferen for Eric, also a 40,000 investment in a rock concert. Daddy had given them a lot of money before, but nothing like this. This looks real suspicious. They drive around LA and kiddies, Mercedes Benz, SL convertible, Dine expensively, pretty much every meal, go on trips overseas to the Caribbean, London, laugh it up, have a great time, party with new and old friends, part of the brother shopping sprees funded by Jose's personal

life insurance policy. And then there's all the family's assets, a fat check-in account, the house on 14 acres and Calabasas or 13 to 40, the Jose and Kitty still owned the Beverly Hills mansion. When the loans on both properties are deducted, the value of Jose's real estate is 5.7 million at the time of his death. Jose also owned 330,000 shares of live entertainment, have been trading about 20 bucks a share. That's another 6.6 mil equivalent to over $15 million today added to all this for Jose and Kitty's personal property and automobiles.

The estate Jose and Kitty left was valued at 14 million over 31 million today. But somehow Lyle and Eric would only inherit about two million each and for loans and taxes were subtracted. Not sure how the fuck that number got arrived yet. I don't have access to their full financial portfolio, but that's what sources say. Seems real low to me. Not sure what kind of debt Jose accrued to offset a lot of his assets. that number got arrived at i don't have access to their full financial portfolio but that uh... that's what sources say seems real only not sure kind of debt Jose crude to offset a lot of his assets uh... two million each not a small inheritance

but fell far short of lila iraq's expectations uh... friend of iraq said the brothers expected to inherit ninety million and that's what happened that uh... you know five million dollar uh... insurance policy live had to that they were supposed to get uh... and they get that. So I don't know how that factors into the two million each. Their brothers were convinced that Jose had hidden 75 million in the secret Swiss bank account. Neither brother could explain how Jose could have amassed that type of fortune though. About a week after the murder, Zaline Eric met with the executives that live to discuss any assets. They maybe didn't know about that. They should be receiving. Their

brothers are surprised to learn that the $5 million key man life insurance policy. Oh, yeah, that's right. I do know what happened to that. That life insurance policy was not valid because before getting murdered, he never took his physical examination. Whoops. They would get some money out of life, though. The brothers decided that they could not stay in the Beverly Hills mansion, right?

It was, it was too scary for them. They were afraid that whoever murdered their parents might come for them. So they have live paid for them to stay at the Bel Air hotel. Uh, and they run up an $8,800 bill in five days. $2,000 is just room service. That's a lot of stake in lobster. A lot of food for your friends, a lot of drinks. A lot of also paid for limousine rides, bodyguards for the brothers. Uh, Lyle's bodyguards will become alarmed when Lyle, I guess, would jump out of the limousine

before it would come to a complete stop to go shop and spend money. I mean, it's like cartoonish what these guys are doing. What the fuck are these idiots doing? On one occasion, the bodyguards watched Lyle as he purchased $24,000 in stereo equipment alone. Then on September 4th, Lyle tells the bodyguards, he doesn't need him anymore. His uncle was able to contact someone in the mob and arrange for some type of deal to have them not be murdered.

Okay? Laos did not explain how his uncle, a middle-aged businessman from a New Jersey suburb, would go about contacting the mob, or how his uncle managed to remove a sentence of death from their heads. After living at various luxury hotels and Beverly Hills, the brothers now rent a joining apartments in the Marina City Towers in Marina Del Rey. Lyle's apartment rented for $2,050 a month.

Erick's rents for $2,450 a month. Right, and this is in 1989. The brothers, they get a penthouse in one of the towers that they want to buy. $990,000, but their financing falls through. They're like, they're just trying to buy everything they can buy. They keep spending the loudest signs. He needs a new car, the red alpha remaro that his parents purchased for him as a graduation

gift from high school. Ah, not enough. Need something new. He gets a Porsche 911 Carrera. Eric trades in his Ford Sort for Jeep Wrangler. Back to October of 89. Lyle has charged more than $90,000 to Jose's American Express card alone. He's traveling frequently between New Jersey and California on the MGM Grand.

Some kind of airline that catered to business people with expense accounts. He's busy right now trying to establish Menendez investment enterprises, trying to become a big businessman just like Daddy was. He gets a bunch of his friends from Princeton, you know, kind of kind of friends acquaintances together, it makes them officers of this new business. Menendez investment enterprises, and this is my favorite part of this episode. Oh, buddy, this may be laugh so hard. Check out this insanity. Lyle rents an office for $3,000 a month in a Princeton shopping mall.

He furnishes it with a bunch of really expensive office furniture. And then he opens Menendez investment enterprises, but they never conduct any actual business. Like, not at all. It doesn't sound like they even had a business focus. He hires employees. Right, he rents the space.

He fucking puts on a suit. Doesn't know what he's doing. It reminds me of Kramer from Seinfeld, carrying around a briefcase full of fucking rich crackers for kind of to be a businessman. He comes up with a name, right? And I don't know what they do there. Maybe just vaguely talk about business.

So fucking weird. All his employees are young, super inexperienced in business. There's kind of friends he'd only known for a few months. None of them have business skills. There's pretending to be businessmen. Lyle, fake businessmen, hires other fake businessmen to hang out with him in a fake business office. This is like some kind of weird cosplay

taken so far. What the fuck were they doing there? I just picture, you know, Lyle, standing at the end of some long, you know, cool looking conference table. Okay, boys, allow me to open the first meeting of Menendez investment enterprises by asking you to conduct some business.

Eric, what business do you have for us today? Wow, I told you, I don't, I don't wanna do this. I just wanna go play tennis. Okay, Eric, not into business today. That's okay. We have a lot of other businessmen here to pick up the business slack. Dom, you like business, don't you?

Yeah, I love business, allow. Boom, that's exactly why I hired you to be CFO of Menendez investment enterprises. What kind of business are you working on today? You fucking business crusher? I make money. Ha, make, make money. Ha, make, uh, make money business. That's a, that's a business I like.

Fucking yes, Tom. That's where I like to hear. Money making business. Armando, what about you? What kind of business do you have for us? Um, I'm so confused. Allow, I, I do like business, but what do we fucking do? I mean, what are we selling?

Cars, uh, stocks, allow, I do like business, but what do we fucking do? I mean, what are we selling? Cars, stocks, real estate? Yes, yes, yes, all of that, Armando. Making money, Armando, you got them right, Dom. Tennis, fucking yes, Eric, tennis business. No, I'm just, I want to play tennis. This is stupid, Lyle. Not the business attitude we want here. Menendez investment enterprise, Derek. You are fucking fired.

More business insanity follows this. This might, I love this. One of Lyle's actual business dreams is to own a restaurant. So he tries to buy Teresa's pizza. A takeout pizza real located across from Princeton's front gate, but Lyle offends the co-owner with the ridiculously low price, arrogant attitude, and the guy won't sell. Business, guest Theresa's pizza doesn't get business like Menendez investment enterprises, CEO, president, MVP, founder, quarterback, VIP, director, cool guy, starting pitcher,

ho, Joseph Lau business guy Menendez, after the pizza rejection, loudestides to buy Chuck's Spring Street Cafe, snack shop in Princeton, the specializes in spicy chicken wings. He pays $550,000 for Chuck's, which the co-owner of Teresa's pizza will later say was ridiculous because it was worth about $200,000. Business, that's how you do business.

Buy high, sell low, unconventional, pay a lot, sell later for a big loss. That is business. That's the manendez investment enterprises business way. Many people are thinking that Lyle is in over his head. Sexual abuse victim or not, this guy is a fucking idiot. And now he takes out a loan against his parents' homes to finance his business deal. He immediately goes to work, this gets better. He immediately goes to work at Chuck's and he accomplishes nothing good.

He expands their home delivery hours from midnight to 1 a.m. He hires more people, changes the name to Mr. Buffalo's. Other merchants in Princeton think this is a bad idea since Chuck had good name recognition, but you know, he'd been a years long staple in Princeton think this is a bad idea since Chuck had good name recognition, but you know, they've been years, long staple in Princeton, but those merchants don't understand business. After purchasing Chuck's, Lyle announced that he wants to open a second location and nearby, and then they're by Princeton mall, right? Another Mr. Buffalo's and then more locations there, Newstie lay, New Brunswick, with new jersey near Rutgers uh... university

he says he wants to open a new mister buffalos every two months but he doesn't know fuck all about chicken wings or business while making these plans his one location is hemorrhaging money because he's paying old classmate who don't know anything about chicken wings to work there and he's let in a bunch of other people eat there for free. Holy shit, business. Meanwhile, Eric also conducting some awesome business back home in California. These guys are a couple of business moguls. Some shady dude convinces

Eric to give him $40,000 to sponsor a rock concert at the Pleiades even LA. And Eric just gives this guy $40,000 in cash. And that guy disappears because he was not a concert promoter. He was just a guy who saw easy money in Eric Menendez, just another business man. Eric decides now he's not cut out for business or for college. He wants to become a tennis pro. So he hires private coach Mark Heffernan for $60,000 a year and they begin to travel extensively instead. That's how you become a tennis pro. So he hires private coach Mark Heffernan for $60,000 a year and they began to travel extensively instead. That's how you become a tennis pro. Do you start practicing tennis a lot? No, you go on a cost of vacation. They stay expensive hotels abroad. They spend money. Sounds like Mark also just took advantage of Eric. Meanwhile,

the investigation into who killed their parents is heating up. Let's catch up with Detective Zoller, his Beverly Hills investigation team. These business plans kill me. On October 24th, two months after the murder, Zoller interviews Eric Menendez alone at the Beverly Hills Mansion, while Lyle is in New Jersey conducting sweet and savvy business, he tells Eric

that he's heard the brothers were not getting along. Eric then complains to him that loud, loud spending too much money. Eric also complains that loud is being just like my dad. Although Eric appears cool and calm, zollard during the interview, Eric is shaking to the core. He thinks police are onto them. As soon as the interview concludes, Eric calls louds in Princeton, but he can't reach him.

He's, he's fucking, he's busy. He's running numerous companies. He's got his chicken wing place. It's lose a lot of money. He's got his weird office in the mall full of guys that don't know what they're fucking doing there. So we can't come to the phone. So now Eric calls a psychiatrist, Dr. Jerome O'Zeele sets up an appointment that he and his brother, Lyle will later regret immensely. This appointment will be very bad for business. On October 31, 1989, Halloween, Eric goes to see Dr. Azeal dressed up as Optimus Prime from the Transformers.

Dr. Azeal dressed up as Megatron, leader of the Decepticons, to very tense session. JK, it was a tense session, but not because of dressed up. But by all means, please continue to imagine them dressing up as transformers. During the session, Ozil and Eric walk around Beverly Hills. Ozil encourages Eric to talk about his recent feelings and depression, suicidal thoughts. Ozil and Eric soon walk back to Ozil's office, and as they near the office, Eric stops walking,

leans up against a parking meter. Ozil stops walking as well, and Eric says, we did it. We killed our parents, Just says it straight up. Eric then tells Azeal about the billionaire boys club. Some mini series based on a true story. He and Lyle had watched together. Some LA rich kids who murdered for money.

Then afterwards, they talk about their shared beliefs. And Jose is going to disinherent them, going to cut them out of the will. And that's so terrible because he's always been such an asshole and dominated them. They tell each other they should kill their dad. But then they worry about their mom. Kitty presents a problem because they don't want to kill her. But they can't think of a way to get away with killing their dad without also killing her.

Eric just not mentioned a word about sexual abuse. At this point, Azeel stops Eric from saying anything more has him called Lyle, who now is back in LA from Princeton. You know, he's taken a little business break. Lyle races over to Ozil's office. Before he gets there, Eric continues telling a story. He tells Ozil about a trip to San Diego he and Lyle had taken to purchase the shotguns. How they thought they committed the perfect crime.

He said they'd been careful, cleaned up the shotgun casings after the shooting. He said they didn't have to worry about fingerprints, right? They thought about that because the crime committed where they lived. So naturally, the fingerprints are gonna be everywhere. Once they finish cleaning up, he says that Lyle drove Eric's car to Mulholland Drive, a winding road that runs from the Pacific Ocean

to the San Fernando Valley, stopped on the drive, Eric waited until the area was clear of cars, then they threw the shotguns into the nearby canyon. They then headed for a gas station where they dumped their blood spattered clothing and shoes into a dumpster along with the showcases and then they drove home. They really thought about this. So maybe not as dumb as that was making them out to be a second ago, but they are pretty dumb. But in this instance, they did something smart.

You know, cold blooded with smart. They said they intended to go to the cheesecake factory then to meet up with their friend Perry, but Eric was falling apart. So they went home called the police instead. Now Lyle arrives to the session and he is furious. He starts ranting, rambling, saying anything you can think of to justify their actions, including so weird that he thinks his dad, Jose, would be proud of him for committing such an effective well thought out murder. Fucking what? That would be so proud of the way I killed him. Uh, Zile explains to the brothers difference between a crime that takes place in a moment if he did passion at one point during this session, such as during an argument, and a crime

committed to reach a specific goal, like killing for money. Because I guess the brothers thought like, well, if we get caught to crime of passion, Azeel explains like, no, not necessarily. He says that behavior in the latter situation is considered the behavior of a sociopath. Azeel would later testify in court that the brothers then looked at each other and said, were sociopaths. Cool. Also, Lyall does not mention sexual abuse. Worried that Azeal might report them, Lyall does threaten to kill Azeal if he tells anyone

about their murders. November 2. The boys meet with Azeal again. Lyall threatens to kill Azeal again, telling him that he and Eric had already considered killing him to keep their secret. I'm sure that was super fun to hear and very relaxing. Azale could have now reported Lyle and Eric to the police because they had threatened him and this threat erases the patient, therapist, confidentiality barrier.

But he doesn't do that. Instead, he makes notes. He tape records their sessions, continues to see them. Two weeks later, November 17th, two police officers interview Eric's friend Craig Signarelli. Signarelli tells him that a few days after the murders, he visited the brothers in the Beverly Hills mansion. During the visit, Eric asked Craig if he wanted to know, quote, how it happened. According to Craig, Eric told him that on the night of the murders, he and Lyle had come home to get his fake ID as Eric was walking towards the car. After finding his ID, Lyle appeared with the shotguns. Let's do it. Lyle supposedly said, according

to Craig's story, it seems like he's really just trying to blame this on Lyle. The plan was that Lyle was going to shoot Jose and Eric was going to shoot Kitty, but after Lyle's shot Jose, Eric froze, he couldn't do it. So Lyle stepped in and shot their mom once looked like she was dead. Eric then shot her twice at the police station. Greg tells the detectives. He didn't know whether to believe Eric or not when he was told that she tells him that he and Eric have a running gag where they tell it to the ref fucked up story.

And then eventually say that could have happened. Basically a little mind game between them. The detectives not sure what to make of Craig's story after consulting Pam Ferrero, the L.A. County deputy district attorney. They decide that they didn't have enough on the basis of this story to charge the brothers with murder, but they now have a lead. The brothers are suspects and the detectives decide to get Craig to wear a wire. Read up with Eric again. See what he might say in the presence of his friend. Craig agrees. Doesn't days later, November 29, 89, the trap is set. Craig is to meet Eric at Gladstone's

for fish on PCH and Pacific palisades. I've eaten the Gladstone's a few times. Fun historical spot worth hitting if you're in the area. They sat down and Craig slowly brought out the story that Eric had told him. But instead of confessing Eric said he'd been lying earlier that he and Lyle had nothing to do with his brother's murder. So it's a bust. Now the DA's office detectives think, well, maybe the brothers didn't have something to do with it. Several months go by. The brothers must now think they'll never get caught. Detectives dig through records of shotguns purchased in LA County, turns up nothing. Jose's estate probated the brothers wind up with their parents' fortune.

But then finally in March of 1990, new lead shows up. March 5th, over six months after the murders, a woman named Judalon Smith contacts the police, saying she has some important information. Judalon was a 37-year-old woman, owned an audio tape, duplicating business, and also Dr. Azeel's mistress. She tells investigators that Azeel had asked her to eavesdrop on the second half of a therapy session. He'd had with Lyla and Eric on October 31st, 1989. Yep. When Dr. Azeal told Eric to call Lyla, he also made a call to his mistress, had her come

to the office. She did and she recorded some of what she heard. She said she heard what sounded like a shouting match. First Lyla said, I can't believe you told him. We've got to kill him and anyone associated with him. According to Joodle on Eric's screen back, I can't stop you from what you have to do, but I can't believe you told him, we've got to kill him and anyone associated with him. According to Joodle on Eric's screen back, I can't stop you from what you have to do, but I can't kill anymore. The session Andy would Eric ran out of the office sobbing.

Then Joodle on said, Lyle left the office, followed by Dr. Isile and the parking lot, Lyle threatened Azile. Azile asked Lyle if he was threatening him, Lyle shook his hand and said, good luck, Dr. Isile. Over the following months, Joodle on said, Azeal continued to see the brothers for therapy sessions. Dude was either braver, stupid to keep counseling murderers who kept saying they're going to kill him. Uh, he tells them that he might be able to help them piece together events in their family's history. Find out what it caused them to kill their parents. And during

the following months, while they do complain endlessly about their dad being a domineering asshole, they do not mention sexual abuse a single time. Now the police have a lily and Eric's murder confessions. Extended conversations about the murders on tape. Three days later, March 8th, 1990, around 1 p.m., lily and his friends decide to go out for lunch. Lyle's friends jump in Eric's Jeep, Lyle gets behind the wheel, the destination is the Cheesecake Factory.

Just like it was in the night of the murders, these fuckers love the cheesecake factory. Me too. Even though my butt now weeps at the thought of cheesecake destroying my digestive system, but that's another story that no one ever wants to hear. Down the street from the Elm Drive Mansion, the Beverly Hills police are lying in wait. They decided against surrounding the mansion or storming it by force because Maria, Jose's mom, their grandma, living there now. They don't want to harm her in the process of arresting the grandsons.

Soon, a cruiser pulls up with his lights and sirens on in front of Laos Jeep, or I guess you know, Eric's Jeep, but he's driving it. He slams on the brakes just short of running into the blue car, throws the Jeep into reverse and crashes into a police van behind him, police were everywhere and officers screams, get out of the Jeep. Laos does, promptly handcuffed, brought to the West

Hollywood Sheriff's Office. He is in book to the station, transported to the LA County men's jail in downtown LA. Later the afternoon, the Los Angeles County District Attorney, Ira Reiner, hold depressed conference and says, I don't know what your experience is, but it's been our experience in the District Attorney's office that 14 million provides ample motive for someone to kill somebody. He continues, special circumstances have been attached to the charges, which means that if convicted, the brothers could be put to death in San Quentin's gas chamber. If you're hearing about Lyle's arrest, Eric calls his uncle Carlos from Israel, where he's competing in an tennis tournament.

That's right, because Eric Jeep Lyle was driving it, Eric was not in it. Uncle Carlos tells Eric to the best thing for him to do is to turn himself in. I bet Eric regrets the shit I've taken that advice now. He could still be out in the run somewhere, maybe, probably not. He's not real bright. But Eric then flies to Miami to meet his aunt, Marta Cano. Cano notifies Detective Zoller. She's flying with Eric from Miami to LA.

March 11th, 1990, he's arrested at the LAX Los Angeles International Airport. And then he is booked into LA County Men's Jail and kept separate from his brother. While the brothers have now been arrested, Zoller is still building the case against him. He doesn't have any physical evidence leaking the brothers to the murders, but they're searched for the murder weapons soon turns up a new lead when Joodle on Smith tells him that Eric had thrown the guns into a canyon off of Moe Hall and Drive. Smith also told Zolder that the guns were purchased in San Diego, which allow visited frequently for tennis tournaments.

Zolder thinks that the brothers would have selected a smaller store close to the freeway or the runs between LA and San Diego so they could get home with the guns quickly but searching smaller stores doesn't yield anything. Anythings could even so dumb, so arrogant, that they would simply buy their guns from a big chain store that keeps very good receipts. Yes. On March 14th, detectives go to big five on Convoy Street in San Diego. They asked the clerk for the store's firearm records detectives find the sale of two Mossberg 12 gauge shotguns $199 each August 18th. The form is signed by Donovan J. Goodrow and it lists a San Diego address. Zola calls Donovan, that fucking kid who used to do Lyle's homework back in Princeton,

asked him where he was August 18th while he was in New York City. He's working at a job managing a restaurant and had a, you know, time clock card that was punched to prove it. The address on the form is phony, but the driver's license number on the form does match Donovan's. Laugh had written it down years ago when they sent the form to Donovan. He said the signature not even close to his Elliott, L to half, the assistant district attorney now assigned to the case as the court for an order allowing him to collect handwriting samples from Laugh and Eric to compare to the signature on the firearm form.

I love this. Eric refuses, the signature on the firearm form. I love this. Eric refuses, but then signs the refusal form. The signature on the refusal form matches the signature that was used to buy the shotguns. And now they know that the guns that had been used to kill kidding Jose are the ones that the men in his brother's bought. The men in his family now lawyers up. Eric and Lyle's extended families stand behind them. At first, leading many to wonder

if they were promised a share of the fortune for their support. The family starts to try by trying to find legal representation for Eric. Then Lyle, they select to represent Eric, Leslie Abramsson. Abramsson, a tiny woman with a little orphan, Annie Herdew, will gather there like a sailor and an unstoppable will.

Leslie a veteran lawyer feared by many across here. After attending Queens College in law school at UCLA, she was admitted to the state bar of California in 1970, then spent six years working in the LA County Public Defender's office. They opened a room. They're her own private practice in the in the public defender's office and became known for her take no prisoners tactics. According to the LA Times, she spent her working life building a reputation as a four-foot one fire eating mud slinging nuclear strength pain in the legal butt. Abramsen named trial lawyer of the year by the LA Criminal Courts Bar Association twice already. A passionate opponent of the

death penalty currently 78 years old, her license of practice law is still active, but apparently now she's working in a toy store. She eventually got tired of the legal circus. Maybe her conscience finally got bothered for making money by keeping murderers from receiving justice. And that is not me throwing shade on all defense attorneys, by the way, just her. She seemed to love to help murderers get away with murder. Back in 1990, she was in her prime. She had been very successful in defending her clients. Only one client she'd represented,

had gotten a descends and she had represented many a murderer. Whether or not she believed that the brothers had killed their parents, she certainly proclaimed in public that they didn't, right? That's her job. She tells the Washington Post, I've represented people charged with murder for 27 years. And these guys just don't measure up to anybody else I've ever represented. These are not murderers. These are troubled

kids in a very difficult and grotesque home environment and they cracked. The Menenda's case would be her 15th high profile murder case, her fee for defending Eric, $750,000. To represent Lyald, the Menenda's family retained Jill Lansing, a slender blonde woman. She had just left the LA County Public Defender's Office to open her own private practice. Unlike Abramson, Lansing did not have much experience with high profile cases. She also no longer practices law. Not sure why the family hired a much stronger attorney for Eric, then Lyle. Maybe they thought Lyle did it. They hired other attorneys to round out the Menendez family legal team.

They hired Marsha Morrissey, who had been a LA County public defender, Michael Bert, head trial attorney in the San Francisco public defender's office, and an expert in death penalty law. The Menendez brothers are reigned for the murders of their parents, March 26, 1990, and judge Judith Stein's courtroom in the Beverly Hills municipal court. The brothers had been in the LA County jail for two weeks, but neither acted as if they were under any kind of suspicion. Observers thought they looked smug, arrogant.

As if they were positive, this would all get cleared up soon. And with Lyles business mind, how could they lose? He was a screwed and savvy businessman. The courtroom was filled with reporters and supporters of the brothers, also, including Lyle's ex-girlfriend, Jamie Pissrich, Eric's tennis coach, Mark Heffernan, who had been in Israel with him just before he was arrested. Maria Murendez also in the audience supported by a large number of Menendez family members. The brothers waved, smiled at their friends and relatives, act like they didn't have a

care in the world. First phase of trial would deal heavily with doctor patient confidentiality, essentially deciding whether or not the tapes that Dr. Ezile made could be allowed as evidence. In August of 1990, the court does give the prosecution a major victory. When the court states of the tapes, the conversations between Eric and Ezile were admissible because Lyle threatened the doctor. Leslie promptly appeals the decision to the California Court of Appeals March 2nd, 1991. The California Court of Appeals overturns the decision. The prosecutors then file an appeal with the California Supreme Court. And on June 4th, 1992, the California Supreme Court decides the release of the tape, you know, is not barred

by the patient therapist privilege, because again, you know, I zeal, I've been threatened. So now the trial can proceed after a bunch of fucking legal wrangling. The men and his brothers have now been in jail for almost three years. In jail, they're separated from other, you know, prisoners, housed in separate cells. And the jail is 7,000 section. That section is housed high profile inmates in some notable times like alumni like the night stalker Richard Ramirez and O.J. Simpson. At the jail, Eric and Lyle eat their meals and cells and exercise for one hour, three

times a week, outside of their cells. During the first months of his confinement, during the first months of his confinement, Eric had been suicidal, subsequently put on Xanix, also asked to see a priest whom he told about his supposed childhood traumas. Was his genuine or was he laying the grounds for a new defense strategy? You'll see why I say that later. June of 1990 Eric begins weekly therapy sessions with Dr. William Fickery, Harvard trained psychiatrist. What about Lyle? Lyle during the early part of his confinement spent a great deal of time in the

telephone. He was speaking to the manager of Mr. Buffalo's a lot, not kidding. And this caused other prisoners to complain about the number and length of his telephone calls. Sorry, guys, he has business. He has chicken wings to not sell. Yes, he's still running his business at a loss. That's part of a complex long con business plan. Most people who have small brains don't have empty offices at malls, don't get.

Fucking love that he's running a wing joint terribly from jail. Around this time share for years. Around this time, share of deputies find that Lyle's ankle chains have almost been cut through. They suspect he's planning an escape. They conduct an inspection on both Lyle and Eric Cells, find a 17-page letter from Lyle to Eric along with some notes and Eric Cells. The notes describe plans to travel to South America and then hide out in the Middle East. The epitome is also find this one laughing. We're drawing a building with too many stairwells and doors. The epitome is trying to match it to the courthouse that Lyle had been in but can't find a building

that this drawing resembles. I like to think that he was planning his escape here. This is like an important part of the escape plan, like a map of how they're going to get out, but he's just not very good at drawing. And then, you know, like, he gets a chance to bring it out of the courthouse. He gets Eric, you know, they're back, they're running away and they both get lost because of his shitty fucking map. They're just like, wow, where are we going? Um, hold on, we just have to find a staircase on top of another staircase next to an elevator.

What? We need to look for a bathroom that takes up most of a building. I've never seen that. Based on my drawing, it should have a window that looks out of the tree, this bigger than the whole courthouse. Oh, oh, and we need to look for some people with giant heads and very skinny arms, legs and bodies nearby. Those people are near the exit.

And Laos letter, he tells Eric that he will never testify against him. Laos also gives Eric advice to Laos believes that Jose would have been, you know, a proud of him. Laos wrote, I'm not an ordinary person. I do not see things in terms of manslaughter and life terms. I only see win, loss, honor and dishonor. Dad is watching and I will not disappoint him a second time or mom by giving up and having their desk be in vain. I don't know what's happening here. Near the beginning of their time in jail, Lyle and Eric are visited by Eric's former girlfriend,

Janice. Apparently, while Eric talked to Janice, Lyle stood by silently, creepily stared directly to her breasts. Janice felt so violated. She told Eric never to allow his brother to come to visitations again. Oh, sorry, Janice. Guess you don't know how fucking business works.

Oh my God, where do I smell the business, Janice? I'm loud, I was not checking you out. He's filing away business plans, not just boob fantasies jerk off too later. He's putting together some solid and comprehensive sales plans. He's brainstorming, how could he combine boos with chicken wings, Janice? You idiot. He just came up with business gold. He came up with the idea for hooters and you're too dumb to notice. He came up with it nine years after

hooters opened. Anyone can come up with a great idea of first Janice, but only the best business minds can come up with a great idea second. More than three years after the murders, on December 8th, 1992, the Menendez brothers indicted by the LA County Grand jury on charges of murdering their parents with two special circumstances.

This meant that if convicted, they could be put to death. The two circumstances were that it was a multiple murder and they had been lying in wait. A third special circumstance that they committed the murders for financial gain was thrown out by the Grand jury, which is surprising to me. The Menendez Brothers trial would now be held at the LA County Superior Court, located at the San Fernando Valley government center in Van Nies. Judgley Stan Weisberg presides over the trial. Weisberg was in his mid fifties. He had

just presided over the first Rodney King trial, like the Rodney King trial. The man and his brother trial would become a cultural obsession. The brother's first trial in 1993 made history as it played out, you know, as I said earlier, live on television on court TV while America watched it home. May 14, 1993, Judge Weisberg rules that the cases of Lyland Eric will be tried together in the interest of time, cost, and convenience. Weisberg ruled each brother would have a separate jury. This meant that of the evidence that pertain only to Lyall was being heard, Eric's jury would be excluded and vice versa. So interesting. The time of the brothers arrest until shortly before the trial began, Lesley

Aberson, Abramsen and Jill Lansing held their cards close to their chest and did not reveal what the defense strategy would be. And June, that strategy is revealed in shock. The nation during a pre-trial here pre-trial hearing on June 9th, 1993 Abramsen said that the defense would admit that the brothers had murdered their parents, but they would argue that Jose and Kitty deserved it. Why? Ayrhamson and Lansing would argue that the brothers had been abused by their parents for many years,

including sexual abuse. The athletic spoiled rich sons who each at one time in their lives considered becoming professional tennis players were going to be portrayed now as victims of child abuse, physical, emotional, sexual. But one big problem with this argument, their brothers had never ever complained to their psychologist or anyone else about this abuse, except maybe those two cousins. There was no medical evidence, no photographs of bruises, no concerning trips

to the doctor. If this defense were to succeed, Abramsson and Lansing would have to carefully reconstruct specific incidents of abuse that involve Lyland Eric. They brought in Paul Moniz, a lawyer and children's rights advocate to help them do this. Moniz had written a book titled, When a child kills abused children who killed their parents, which outlined how attorneys can successfully defend children accused of killing their parents. In the book based on Moniz research, I'm not starting to say his name actually, I couldn't find a video, it's M-O-N-E-S.

He said that the kids who killed their parents are usually normal and favor non-confrontation right up until they're murdered. He said that child parent murders happen after years of suffering abuse silently and trying to please parents. Moniz argued that the murders themselves tended to be characterized by overkill. So instead of firing one bullet, the child shoots the parent abuser over and over again. And in no uncertain terms, Moniz believes that when an abusive parent is murdered, it's

their fault not the kids. So interesting, ethical dilemma. Is it ever okay to murder your abuser if so, when? And what if you murder them when you no longer live with them? When you're no longer under their roof and a child? Is it still okay to enact vengeance? Abramson and Lansing, we try to prove Lyle and Eric have been abused by using an abuse diagnostic tool developed by a therapist, E. Sue Bloom, which measured characteristics of incest survivors. The diagnosis consisted of a 34 item checklist, detailing the after effects of child sexual abuse.

And Bloom's checklist had many items that could be applied to both brothers, fear of sleeping alone, stealing, desire to disassociate from family, living in a fantasy world, feeling like one needed to achieve in order to be loved. Those trades can also, of course, though, be found in people who are not victims of any kind of abuse. The defense attorney seemed to try and invoke sympathy from the jury by making Lyle and Eric look like abused children as well, like just visually. They had them dress in boyish sweaters, sports shirts, khaki pants, making them look like teenagers instead of the 22 and 25 year old men they were now. Throughout the trial, Abramson would also do shit like pick Lint off of Eric sweater like

she was his fucking aunt or grandma. She would put an arm around his shoulder, whisper into his ear, you know, actions implying he's not a killer. He's a Mr. said boy, he just needs good parenting. The trial begins on July 20th, 1993, prosecutor Pam Bosonich's opening statement lays out the case against Lyle. Pam also retired now. Bosonich previously prosecuted the infamous McMartan preschool case. We talked about that case back in episode 31 of Time Sick, the Mandela Effect episode.

That trial ran from 87 to 90 ruined a lot of lives, Infamous example of satanic panic, improper questioning of child witnesses, false memory syndrome, most expensive trial up to that point, American history, right? The children in that case accused defendants of doing ridiculous shit like being flushed and fucking down toilets in the secret rooms, being shown the devil, gave people the ability to fly, Chuck Norris showed up from time to time, you know, might have molested it. It was sailing which trial shit that happened over 30 years ago. People's live ruined over nonsensical paranoid delusional conspiratorial allegations. A reminder not to let the world devolve into conspiratorial fucking idiocy.

Back to this Bosnianist trial, or this one, Bosnianist described the brutality of the murders, right? All the wounds to Jose and Kitty, and described the spending spree after the murders. Rolex watches, cars, apartments, lots of business equipment. Bosnianist would often remind the jurors throughout the trial that if Lyla and Eric could lie so frequently and in such great detail to avoid being caught previous to the murders, they could also lie about child abuse to avoid being caught previous to the murders, they could also lie about child abuse to avoid death sentences. These guys had recently practiced lying a lot, which is very true.

Haydnull's antich or the bullshit she pulled in the McMartin trial like some of her work here. Jill Lansing began her opening statement by telling the jurors that, yeah, Lyle and Eric killed their parents, but the trial wasn't about that. I'm pretty sure it was, but whatever. She'd say, we're not disputing what happened. The only thing that you're going to have to focus on in this trial is why it happened. That is some lawyer, mumbo jumbo, Jedi, and mind trick. Shit, if I've ever heard it.

She continued, What we'll prove to you is that the murders were committed out of fear. Fear of two parents who were so brutal, so manipulative, so sexually perverse, that they drove their own sons to the most desperate act of defilement. The main threat of the defense was twofold. One, that Eric and Lyle didn't have to kill their parents for money, because they already lived luxurious lifestyles. And two, that they'd had to murder their parents,

that they had to murder their parents because they had been victims of sexual abuse. But why everyone wondered with their brothers wait to kill their parents until 1989 if the abuse had been going on for so long? Why do it after both of them were out of high school? You'll have to answer. She said that a few days before the murders, Eric told Lyle that he'd been molested by Jose for the last 12 years.

Lyle was shocked because he had been molested by Jose from age of six to eight and they just found this out. Then according to Lansing, Lyle confronted Jose, told him that the abuse had to stop and that he was going to take Eric out of the house and leave forever. Eric was already planned on leaving in just a few weeks later to go to UCLA, but whatever. And according to Lansing, Jose told Lyle that Jose would do whatever he wanted to his son, no one would threaten him. Lansing went on to say that Jose made it very clear to Lyle that this secret would never leave the family and that the people who held the secret and this power over him would not be allowed to live.

And that feels like a script of a party written melodrama to me. Feels phony. That was when the brothers drove to San Diego, purchased shotguns to you using Donovan's driver's license. Right. They had to defend themselves. The defend allows business plans. Why hadn't they told anyone about the abuse and no uncertain terms previously?

Yes, or was the cousins? Lansing said it was because her shame was so great. In her opening statement, Leslie Abramson expanded on many of the same themes that Jill Lansing outlined during her opening statement. Abrams had told a jury that Lyle had acted the way he had to defend his brother. Eric needed to be defended

because he was the real victim in the family. She acknowledged Eric's revelation of abuse might look suspicious, especially after he spent time in jail, but that didn't mean he made it up. As for Kitty, both Eric and Lyle's teams would argue that she died because her sons could not go to her for support. He said that Kitty was a disturbed person who dished out more abuse, sexual, physical, and psychological, interesting that she's been accused. Not even any cousins growing up hurt any illusions

to her being sexually abusive. Judge Weisberg would not allow the attorneys to describe Kitty's problems with alcohol and prescription drugs, but they would allow them to talk about Kitty being unstable and obsessive. Now to go along with their new characterizations of Jose and Kitty,

the defense presents a brand new highly unlikely that shit ever fucking happened run down of the weeks leading up to the murders. This is ridiculous. Abramson described how in the week before the murder kitty and Lyle got into a screaming match It ended to get ended up getting physical and then kitty yanked Lyle's to pay off his head and when this happened Eric is shocked he didn't allow had to pay and the shock of this alleged discovery made Eric ask Lyle if Anything else suspicious had been going on and then Lyle was like, I don't know anything suspicious going on with you and that's when Eric told Lyle that Jose had molested him and then Lyle was like, what? Me too. We have to kill him. I'm paraphrasing,

but that's the suggestion to the defense. Fucking what? Did you catch that? The defense is arguing that the incident that kicked off a double murder revolved around a two-pabean ripped off. That's some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard. If I'm a juror, I'm openly rolling my eyes and mumbling some version of, can't fuck out of here. Come on. This seems so fucking made up. It's just weird.

Eric would have known Lyle was wearing a two-pay. You don't hide that from your brother for years. Come on. Then after the two-pay incident that never happened, the same week Jose supposedly told Eric that he would have to sleep at home several days a week so that Jose and Kitty could keep track of his schoolwork. And Abram said that Eric assumed this meant the sexual abuse would continue. He's about to turn 19, but now by the way, athletic, big as his dad.

Now the boys have no time to waste, so they drive to San Diego to buy shotguns. The prosecution now reminds everyone that Eric and Lyle had been through years of therapy. Never once discussed any of this. In fact, their brothers had never spoken about any kinds of abuse until they needed illegal defense almost seven months after they murdered their parents. Eric's out of the house. Lyle's almost out. They both don't seem capable of fending for themselves in the world. They love fancy shit. Their dad's about to cut about to cut them out of the will. Come on. It was about the money. Both sides now call witnesses.

All kinds of people will testify even the captain of the boat, the menendez family chartered to go shark fishing, right, the day before their parents were killed. The captain said they were an odd family. Their brother spent almost the entire seven-hour trip, huddled together at the front of the boat. At the end of the testimony, Abramson told reporters the reason their brother

stayed themselves was because they were worried about being murdered on the boat. The fuck? How are Jose and Kitty can kill them in front of a crew of witnesses? How does Abramson say stuff like this with a straight face? I don't like her. Did you represent murderer after murder because you wanted to make sure innocent people don't go to prison or is she to some sick fuck who likes murderers. Whether or not it had been an actual plot to kill them, Abramson said, I didn't matter.

I bet you differ. She said what matter was that the brothers had been made paranoid, oppressed over the years by so much abuse that, you know, everything seemed life threatening and they had to strike back. She's really redefining reality for the jury here, presenting nonsense is fact. The prosecution calls their star witness. Now, Dr. Rezile, before he takes a stand, Abramson promises to attack his credibility in every way known to man and God.

It's cool. Azeal has a smoking gun that bananas brothers confessions. August 4th, he begins the first six days of testimony for the prosecution, says before both Lyle and Eric's juries that the brothers wanted to kill Jose because he was dominating and made them feel inferior, not because of sexual abuse. Kitty, he said was murder because the brothers just couldn't figure out how to leave her alive, not because she was an abuser.

As he'll provide the only detailed recreation of the murders and the brothers own words, and at the root of it are his financial gain. The men and his brothers weren't abused kids. They were greedy sociopaths in his opinion. After this, Eric and Lyle take the stands to defend themselves. Lyle testifies for nine days. presents a stream of stories about the alleged molestation. He suffered from ages six to eight.

And a story randomly that he also molested his brother when Eric was five. Not sure why he included that. Maybe just wanted to show like his dad made things so crazy. He just said, no, what to do. What was right? What was wrong? Both Lyle and Eric cry frequently during Lyle's testimony Lyle testifies that at 13 he came to believe his dad was molesting his brother Which is fucking ridiculous because earlier Abramson said that they just found out about it during the two pay incident Remember the whole my mom pulled my brother's wig which led me to confess my brother being sexually abused

Which led him to confess to being sexually abused to me, which led to feeling that we had to kill them both defense. Didn't that happen? It did. So much bullshit here. So much smoking mirrors. Does this story add up? A lot of TikTokers seem to think the manandas confessions

of abuse are 100% true. Makes me not have a lot of faith in the critical thinking abilities of a lot of TikTokers. I realized two cousins would reference thinking that Jose sexually abused Lyle and Eric, but after all this shit, I question their statements. Did Averson coach them into saying that? Find some witnesses who could be manipulated with leading questions into maybe false memories. I don't know. She seems so good at just being manipulative and just helping people manufacture bullshit. Lyle also now adds a kiddie sexually abused him when he was 11 and 12, even though no one ever heard anything about anything like this before.

There was no way to run from them. Lyle said because they were so powerful, they would have found them and killed them. On September 27th, Eric testifies. He begins to testify testimony. Most he consists of him reiterating his belief that his parents were going to have him killed. Also, this is fun. He said that his mom, kiddie had magical powers, like literally magic. He was worried about his dark magician mom.

Do you know where he went? Who his friends were? Everything he did. He was a magician. Eric Stevens seemed pretty difficult to believe in childish, coming from a grown man. Eric talks a lot about new sexual abuse details, no one's ever heard before, like how he'd began to put cinnamon in his father's tea and coffee because he heard from classmates, it made semen taste better.

Let's now speed up to the closing arguments beginning with the defense. Michael Bert begins his closing argument by telling Lyle's jurors that they must consider that the murders were carried out while their brothers were in a state of fear and panic that followed year after year of abuse by bullying parents. Jill Lansing walks the jurors through the crime, asked them to consider the entire event dating back to Lyle's childhood sexual molestation. During her three day closing argument, Abramson, three days uses some word salad to try and explain a way numerous logic holes.

You know, accusing prosecution witnesses of being liars, publicity seekers, attacks, Dr. Azeel's credibility towards the end of her argument, also throws lila under the bus telling jurors, I don't want Eric to be taking the rap for lila. Ads, the evidence in this case does not prove that Eric killed anybody. Pam Bosonich then delivers the prosecution's closing statement, doesn't pull punches, calls lila and Eric spoiled vicious brats, who got the best defense daddy's money could buy. At one point but it says the defense for all those children who were severely abused and who became

useful members of society this defense is an offense or as an offense judge wiseburg gives liel and aric's juries for choices and deciding the brothers fate they can find their brothers guilty of first degree murder special circumstances or second to your murder or voluntary manslaughter, or involuntary manslaughter. Lyle and Eric each face sentencing on three counts, murder of Jose, murder of Kitty, and charge of conspiracy to commit murder.

January 13th, 1994, after 16 days of deliberation, Eric's jury announces that it is deadlocked. They can't reach an agreement on any of the counts. Unreal. At least one jury member bought Abramsons bullshit, two pay defense at all. Just under two weeks later, January 25th, after deliberating for 24 days, Liles jury announces it's deadlocked. Judge Weisberg declares mistrows in both cases.

Second trial trial is coming now. February 28th, 95. Judge Weisberg sets a trial date of June 12th for a retrial. The retrial is postponed a number of times, doesn't start until August of 1995. This time the brothers are tried together by a single jury. During the two and a half years between trials, a new prosecutor, David Khan,

who sadly died of ALS back in 2006, decides to avoid key mistakes made in the first trial. Namely, Bosantich's decision not to address head-on the brother's allegations of all the abuse. Bosantich had ignored it, thinking that jurors would too. This time, the prosecution hires Dr. Park Elliott Dietz, well-known forensic psychiatrist, to help them disprove Lyall and Eric's allegations.

They also spend more time reconstructing the crime scene to show how clearly the brothers had premeditated their attacks. November 20th, Con rest the state's case against some of NND's brothers. The cornerstone of the state's case is a computer-generated reconstruction of the murder scene. Con used the reconstruction to demonstrate to jurors that the brothers deliberately, methodically killed their parents. This contradicted the brothers' testimony in the first trial when they said that they fired their shotguns into blind panic.

Abramson got them to tell so many wild ass stories that didn't add up. There was no way that they were going to pull that shit off again when a good prosecutor who had time to study their nonsense comes along. Like the trial before the brothers will testify. Eric testifies for 15 days. His testimony began much like he did in the first trial. Describes a lot of the sexual abuse that Jose supposedly inflicted on him. This time, Judge Weisberg, though, is on to him. And after three days, limits his testimony to certain allegations. You can't just talk on and on and on about early childhood stuff that may or may not have happened. Loud does not testify this time around. He fucked

up in between the first trial and this one. He conducted some bad business. Prosecutors of tape recorded conversation between Lyle and Norma Navelli, a lady who met with Lyle in prison in 91 about maybe writing a book about all this. And Lyle told her he quote, snowed the jury at his first trial with his testimony about sexual abuse. As in, as defined on using English.com and as I've always understood that phrase to persuade or deceive someone, he told this lady, he fucking lied about the abuse when he had another murder trial coming

up. Why? He's a fucking idiot. This really makes me lean further towards these assholes making it all up or at least 99% of it. Did Jose maybe touch them inappropriately with their younger? I don't know. Maybe it's possible. Or maybe they just said some weird shit as kids. It's hard to say with these guys. The prosecution also discovered a letter

allow had written to a former girlfriend telling her to lie at his first trial. January 30th, 1996, the defense rests. February 20th, Khan begins the first of four days of closing arguments. He ridicules the brothers claims of abuse as, quote, the silliest, most ridiculous story ever told in the courtroom. February 29th, closing arguments end with Khan telling the jury that Lyle and Eric blame their victims, put their parents on trial, made up stories about sexual abuse to get the money they felt that were entitled to now.

It's time for a jury March 1st. Jury begins to deliberate March 20th, 1996 for four days. The jury convicts the Menendez brothers, each on two counts of first degree murder and on conspiracy to commit murder. And they are also a special circumstances attached to murders, lying in wait and multiple murder because of these special circumstances attached to the murders, lying in a way and multiple murder. Because of these special circumstances, there are only two sentencing options, life and prison without the possibility of parole

or death by execution. And they end up getting life in prison without the possibility of parole. On July 2nd, 96. September 10th, the California Department of Corrections separates the brothers, sends them to different prisons, liable bus to North current state prison, and then Eric bus to California state prison near Sacramento, Lyle and Eric segregated from other prisoners,

classified as maximum security inmates, and then there's appeals. Let the appeals don't go through. The California Court of Appeal upholds the murder convictions and on May 28th, 1998, the California Supreme Court upholds the murder convictions and on May 28th 1998 the California Supreme Court upholds the convictions What about their lives in prison? Since entering prison their brothers have married even though California does not allow Conjugal visits for those convicted of murder or those serving life senses January 97 allow Mary's longtime penpal Anna Erickson a former model and current fucking idiot

Penpal Anna Erickson, a former model and current fucking idiot. The marriage reportedly ended after less than a year because she discovered that Lyle was cheating on her by writing to another woman. What's wrong with these people? November 2003, Lyle, then 35, Mary's Rebecca Sneed, 33 year old magazine editor from Sacramento. At a ceremony in the maximum security visiting area of the Mule Creek State Prison. They had known each other for 10 years prior to their engagement. Also in 97, Eric reportedly marries through a telephone ceremony at Folsom State Prison in June of 99, Eric then 28. I guess he gets engaged. And then he gets married in 1999 to Tammy Ruth Sockerman, 37 years old, in a Folsom state prison, prison in their

waiting room. She later stated that our wedding cake was a twinkie. We improvised. It was a wonderful ceremony until I had to leave. That was a very lonely night. You should get counseling Tammy. You seem for lack of a better phrase, fucked up. Why are you doing this?

April 4, 2018, the Menena's brothers together again for the first time in nearly 22 years, they both end up in the same unit of the RJ Donovan Correctional Facility in San Diego. They speech each other face to face for the first time since September of 96. After having been sent to different prisons, you know, 500 miles apart, following the sentencing, the prison officials allowed them to meet together in a room for about an hour, long time Menendez, tracker, author, and journalist Robert Rand told USA Today reporter, adding, and both brothers immediately became very emotional. They hugged each other.

They are so excited to be reunited after all these years. They can't wait to conduct some business according to the California State government's online inmate tracker, the two remaining San Diego incarcerated together today with no hope for parole. And with that, let's hop out of this long-ass time suck timeline. Good job, soldier. You've made it back. Barely. Before I recap, how about a little bit more business?

Today's time suck is brought to you by Manendez Investment Enterprises. Hi, I'm Laummanendez, convicted murderer in businessmen. Do you like money? Rolex watches, sports cars, condos on the beach, and business? Do you like chicken wings? Well, I have a business opportunity for you.

How would you like to go into business together? I'm looking for a business partner for Mr. Buffalo's. I'm not sure it's still in Princeton. It's hard to conduct business from a six by nine cell. But if it is there, let's have a business lunch in separate places because I'm not allowed to have lunch visitors. Then let's hop on the phone for a business call. Profit, interest, return on investment, wealth building.

These are business terms I've heard over the years, and I'd like you to teach me what they mean. Also, my brother would like to play tennis again. Please, break us out of prison. Are you in the breaking out of prison business? If any of this makes sense, call 1-800-BUSINESS. I wrote a jingle to help you remember our business number. Call 1-800-BUSINESS.

If you like business, business, business, 800, with one in front, business, business, Princeton, money, profit, business, so much business, Manendus, investment, enterprise for business, I'm lonely, I need to pay money for my business. Wow, what a great opportunity for people to invest in. So what do I think about Eric and LaLmanen? Obviously, I think they're fucking idiots. I think they're parent murdering liars.

Were their parents assholes maybe? Were they spoiled fucking brats? Oh, certainly. Did they get molested? Maybe the cousin testimony is hard to completely ignore. But if something happened, why tell all these convoluted two-pay-based, weird tales that contrast and contradict previous tales of militations? I mean, their stories roll over the fucking place. Why tell someone you snowed at the first jury? Did loud trick his cousins and the saying what they said? I don't know. Did they just say weird shit a few times when they were kids about stuff that never happened?

It's possible. They're weirdos. Can you be a liar and also have actually been molested? Yes, but the timing of the murders When they're both 18 or older, ones in college, ones a few weeks away, then they murder right after dad threatens to cut them out of the will, right after mom and dad likely write a new will. That's a little suspicious. Investigative journalist Dominic Dunn wrote a lot about these two before passing away in 2009.

He wrote the following for Vanity Fair and for covering the first trial extensively. He's probably the most noteworthy print reporter covering the case. And he, uh, here, here are a few excerpts that provide additional details that influence my opinions about the men and his brothers or expressed feelings that I share, but more eloquently. He's a good writer was today statistics indicate that more than three American children die each day from abuse and neglect. It is a subject that must be reckoned with. statistics indicate that more than three American children die each day from abuse from neglect.

It is a subject that must be reckoned with. But it is also a subject that is being ludicrously overworked in the justice system. It has become an increasingly popular defense to gain in acquittal or an inconsequential verdict for most for the most heinous of crimes. Perpetrators need only to scream out, I was abused. And there is an expectation of forgiveness. Child abuse, such a volatile subject, the large section of the public need only hear the words to become passionate advocates of acquittal, no proof necessary. He raped me, sobbed, Lyle Menendez on the witness stand in one of the most overwhelmingly emotional moments I have ever encountered in a courtroom. Tears ran down his cheeks. This was unexpected. This was the

tough guy brother. I was devastated by his first day on the stand as he told his story. Everyone had expected that it would be never stop crying kid brother Eric that would grip the courtroom. But it was Lyle who soared. He was brilliant. I believed him. I had tears in my eyes and a lump in my throat. I thought my God. I'm wrong. This really did happen. Lyle Menendez knew instinctively how to take his moment and turn it into theater. There were rumors never verified of an acting coach who visited him and his brother in jail, masquerading as a therapist. This much I know for sure, he was aware of the brilliance of his performance. Let's get down to brass tacks about Jose Menendez raping his six-year-old son.

The squeezed tight little anus of a six-year-old is not an easy entry for a man-sized penis. Surely, if it happened, the pain must have been unbearable, not just for the time span of the rape itself, but for days, possibly weeks after. There must have been devastation to the rectal area. Other than to say it hurt and he bled, loud did not give any accounting of post-rape physical trauma, his attitude was more that of a straight guy, being an unwilling participant in an unpleasant gay act than that of a rape victim. No medical records were produced. An incest survivor, with whom I kept in touch during much of the trial, doubted the truth of the molestation charge from the start. For this person who has undergone

years of therapy and has worked with other incest survivors, the three-hour trip to San Diego to buy the shotguns was the false note. If it had been a butcher knife or a gun already in the house or any household instruments such as an axe or a pipe that might have been at hand, she would have believed the story. The advance planning, the use of a former friend's ID to cover up also rang false to this person. The defense in this case is destroying a new area of the law, she said. They are twisting it and contorting it to justify this crime that their clients have committed. This case causes many questions and concerns to be raised by some of us in the incest survivor community. Even though a significant number of children are told they will be killed if they tell on their perpetrators,

they simply choose not to murder them. I have heard from the mouth of Menenda's relative with whom I met clandestinely during the trial that the brother's account of the most Asian was false. Gleaned from books they read in jail, beginning with Paul, Monés, Winnie Child Kills, abused children who killed their parents. A study of true cases and how they were defended in court. The defense claimed that until the moment Kitty pulled the hair piece off Lyle, Eric did not know that his brother wore a two-pay. The defense further claimed that the side of his older brother's baldness and the sudden

awareness of his brother's vulnerability and embarrassment freed Eric to confess to liel his own deep secret, that their father had been sexually molesting him for 12 years. That one brother did not know the other brother wore a hair piece is hard to swallow. A man's two-pay is not like a woman's wig, which can be slipped onto the head easily. The wearing of a two-pay involves elaborate preparations before a bathroom mirror, and the various means of attachment, such as glue, hooks, and lure locks, tried by a liel before he settled on the method he liked best could not have gone unnoticed. This is not a full-year brother kind of thing. The Menendez brothers are documented liars. They're 911 called to the Beverly Hills Police to report the discovery of the dead bodies

that the parents they had killed more than an hour before will always remain a classic in the deception genre. Perhaps Laos crying was real in that call. Perhaps even grief was involved in that genius moment, and all fairness one must assume that the initial side of the carnage they had created when they returned from getting rid of their bloody clothes and the shotguns must have been brutalizing to their senses. However, whether in grief or fakery, they were still lying. Every word spoken through tears and the agonized cries

was a lie. Later that night and for the next seven months until they were arrested, they continue to lie convincingly to the police. That last part, that's just it. Liars, proven liars. So why believe them about wild sexual abuse claims told and convoluted and contradictory stories? The book Dominic references that Paul Monay's when a child kills so many graphic details of their supposed abuse match up exactly with abuse tales from that book. I can't explain the two cousins testimony. I lean strongly towards believing sexual abuse allegations, but sometimes people lie, especially

when they're trying to avoid prison time, a possible death sentence. And I think these two fuckers lied. I mean, like Dominic points out, we know they lied over and over and over, leading up to their testimony. And I think the two sociopaths willing to kill their own parents for money, also willing to completely tarnish those parents' reputations to try and save their asses. That's just my opinion. Let's now go back to some facts with today's top five takeaways. Number one, after acquiring shotguns in San Diego on the night of August 20th, 1989, Lyle and Eric Menendez, then 21 and 19, ambushed their parents in their Beverly Hills home. Hose and Kitty shot multiple times before they died, then after they died, or after they

were dead, Eric and Lyle shot them to their knees to make the murders look like a mob hit. Number two, Menendez investment enterprise. Are you fucking kidding me? Dude, least office space in them all hired employees for an investment business that never invested in anything. Number three, Lyle and Eric probably are sociopaths. Also, there are sociopathic tendencies, probably not helped at all, by their dad constantly protecting them from suffering the consequences of their actions. When Lyle got to spend it from Princeton, Jose Stepsin, when Eric gets caught stealing from houses,

Jose Stepsin, on and on. While Jose might have been thinking he was protecting them, their future and reputations, what he was really showing them was that with enough money, you can get away with anything, not good parenting. Number four, uh, to pay was a major part of reconstructing what happened in the weeks leading up to the crime. The defense claimed that Kitty pulling off Lyle's to pay shocked Eric so much that it somehow led to him confessing all the years of sexual abuse and a murder plot. The prosecution claimed that Eric had known about the toupee since Lyle had actually been wearing it since he was 14.

How strange. Didn't remember that detail from the, from the case back when all this happened in 93. And number five, new info, more pop culture, Menendez moments. In 2017, the wonderful Edie Falco of sopranos and nurse Jackie fame played Leslie Abramson, that spitfire Eric Menendez defender in a new series, Lawn Order true crime that thus far is only ran one season eight episodes of the Menendez case at aired in the fall of 2017 earned an Emmy nomination for her portrayal her 14th. And while I did not see it, Lindsay did said it was fantastic. Also,

the brothers can be seen in the background of Mark Jackson's 1990-1991 NBA hoops card. Jackson saw a player rookie the year 88, all star 89, NBA, cis leader 97. You play for the nicks and the brothers can be seen in the background in the stands, sitting in the front row, court side Madison Square Garden tickets bought with daddy's money after the murders before the arrest. Unfortunately, this card is not worth a lot if you happen to have it. Because in 91, lots of people buying sports cards in the market was saturated. Still interesting, no. What are the odds?

They would pop up in a fucking basketball card. The Menendez brothers have been sucked. I know it was a long one, but I think it was interesting. I tried to cut the fact and there's still a lot of info. Thank you to the Bad Magic Productions team for all the help making time suck every week. Queen of Bad Magic, lazy comments, Reverend Dr. Joe Paisley, Joe appreciates all the kind messages of support he has gotten recently in relation to his dad's recent terminal

medical diagnosis. Even if he does not get back to every message, he wants you to know that he appreciates the support. I think Joe, did I say that right? I didn't, okay, I heard him say yes. Thanks to Olivia Lee for the initial research this week. Thanks to a bit of liquor for keeping the time stock afrona smooth. Logan the art warlock Keith, our creative director, Craig and all the merch at badmagicmerce.com. Thanks to Liz, the enchantress Hernandez running cold to the curious private Facebook page with her all seen eyes moderators

and for helping Logan socials. And thanks to beef steak and the mod squad keeping over 10,000 meat sacks happy on discord. Next week, we take a look at a current epidemic, not COVID, talking about the opioid epidemic. Possibly one of the hardest contemporary topics to untangle, touch so many lives for the worst, made even thinking about opioids and their place in society and medicine difficult. The opioid epidemic, known as the opioid opioid crisis, my mouth is dying here.

I'll refer to the growing number of deaths and hospitalizations from opioids, including prescriptions, illicit drugs, and elsewhere. In recent years, death rates from these drugs have ramped up to over 40,000 a year or 115 a day across the US. Drug overdose, now the leading cause of accidental death in the US largely due to this epidemic. The opioid epidemic first gained notoriety around 2010,

but the factors behind it began decades earlier when new drugs that pharmaceutical companies claimed were not as addictive as they are hit the market. Couple with doctors not wanting to be accused of malpractice or mistreatment, prescriptions of opioids skyrocketed, using opioids, hardly new for me to ask out, as we'll see humans have been taking opioids in various forms since the dawn of society. Uh, it's likely we're not going to stop taking them soon. So what do we do? Why now are we having an epidemic? Is the media actually reporting the epidemic correctly or sensationalizing it? Should opioids be illegal or like one Columbia professor and self-professed heroin addict says should all adults be allowed to make drug choices for themselves?

Complicated subject tackled it next week on time suck right now. Let's head on over to time sucker updates Updates get Get your time, sucker, updates. Let's start off talking about memories, wild memories. Nash Tucky, Science Sack, Jacob Ratz. Uh, Jacob Ratz, he doesn't Ratz. He writes, hello, Master, and chief hand of the circle, circle. My name is Jacob. I'm a resident physician scientist and pediatric medicine at Vanderbilt Children's Hospital

in Nashville. Anyway, a long time sucker here, pre-Jail Paisley and BM production days. I have recently, thank you. I've recently been going through the back catalog of the suck, I have to tell you a story that you won't believe. Here's the relevance.

I listened to the suck on nursery rhymes last week and right after, listened to the Mandela effect. In both of these episodes, you devoted a respectful amount of time to memories and the formation thereof. Here's the story. Allow us in medical school. I want a research fellowship from the Howard Hughes Medical Institute.

That's awesome. As part of the fellowship, they've lose out to Chicago at the end of the research for a conference where we got to meet previous Nobel Prize winners, other leaders in our fields, and present our research findings from the year-long fellowship. It was about 60 of us, medical student researchers from across the country this meeting, on the last day they took us to a Michelin three star restaurant, fuck yeah. Where we all had our own banquet room, essentially, and a special guest speaker, Eric Candel. Candel, perhaps.

This guy won the Nobel Prize in physiology or medicine years ago for discovering how memories form via neural synaptic formation. The idea that the brain was malleable and that this could be measured was totally unknown before his work. Anyway, this dude was 86 years old at the time of the meeting. He was witty, very spry, fun to be around. As we wrapped up dinner, he began to speak about his career path and such. It became very clear, very quickly, that he may have had a few glasses of wine. He proceeds to tell us future doctors and scientists about how his family escaped to Holocaust

when he was about 10 years old, in and of itself, pretty badass. Then he went on to say, using his microphone directed at HMI officials, other accomplished physicians and doctors, and as medical students, the following paraphrasing. My parents said we had to move and I didn't understand why, but we did. It crushed my heart. It crushed me because I would never be able to see my in-home nanny again. Her sweet bosoms would never be in my hands again.

Her lips on mine and our warmth shared under the covers. She made me a man over and over again, and always so gentle with me as I was learning how to please a real woman such as herself. He continued on for like 20 minutes, saying shit like this, Jesus Christ. I was looking around to see if anyone else was having their fucking mind explode like myself, and indeed there was not a closed jaw on the room.

He was completely and openly describing his sexual assault as a child and how he loved it. What the fuck, man? I'm glad he's not scarred by it, but goddamn, it was a weird hour of my life here in that shit. Anyway, I thought you might enjoy that memory connection. Ha ha. I also just want to say how much I truly appreciate you and your constant praise of doctors and scientists and the scientific method. As you know, it seems like we're being trusted less and less every day, which is tough for someone like me who made a decision in college to use my talents for the unconditional betterment of others.

I gave up my 20-year study medicine, so in Atta Boy, pat on my back from you every once in a while, really does lift my spirits. I get to make sick children better every day, so I don't give a fuck how much you love your job. I know that I have the best job in the world. Ha ha. If you haven't read this lengthy bit of an email,

can you give a shout out to my brother-in-law, Jeremy Shrum, or like real brothers, and he turned me on to the suck back in the summer of 2019, I've been hooked since. Love your podcast, love your commitment to logic and reason. Most of all love how you suck so well. I've attached a photo of the aforementioned, aforementioned dinner and one of me meeting Jimmy Page from Led Zeppelin.

All thanks to my scientific endeavors. That's fucking awesome. Jacob, I love that you love your job and that your job is so important, man. Keep saving lives. Kids lives. Anyone who thinks you and your fellow doctors or the enemy have lost their fucking minds when it comes to medical issues.

Anyone listening who just doesn't trust doctors in general, who thinks the medical and science communities are out to get you. Let's see how strong that belief remains when you're sick and scared. Bet you'll be begging for some illuminati medical care then. And if not, I am sorry that you are such a fucking idiot. And I sincerely hope you don't have children

or other people around you to influence because your belief system is terrible. Also, holy awkward, how weird. Look at that pic that you sent me about you all taking a picture with this guy who just spent half an hour Wistfully remembering being molested by his nanny. Maybe she was a super young nanny. He was 10 maybe she was 11. I don't know, probably not. Maybe he had a small stroke and you got confused. The memory guy certainly memorable that night. Missouri sucker, Adam Grisham now has some Missouri updates for us after listening to Boone Hill. He writes, all hail the suck master supreme. What's up, Dan?

I've never been so close to have gotten the, oh, I've never been so close to have been gotten. Then your description of log branch Missouri comes. I was believing it through William James, I'm a history teacher, psych major in college. I teach psychology and I was already mentally ready to add this to my slideshow notes. Oh fuck yeah. But then your voice broke a bit after you mentioned pragmatism. When you said, uh, love very much actually. I can hear the bullshit in your voice. I quickly realized you're full of shit. The coffee shop was too much, but you almost got me. By the way, I live in Missouri and when you mention how there's a Florida Missouri,

I decided to email you. There's also a Mexico, Cuba, Nevada, Sparta, Paris, New London, Columbia, Memphis, Salem, California, and Lebanon, Missouri. A county named Texas as well. Maybe the founders of the show me state, not very creative. Thanks for the free entertainment over the 15 plus years. I don't remember how old I was when I bought,

totally didn't download or steal revenges near, but it ignited love of standup comedy for me. And it inspired way better games than crazy comment crazy laugh crazier stare with my friends and I fun stories for another time keep sucking your brother sucker Adam Grisham. P.S. if you happen to read this, please give a shout out to my wife Courtney. We love everything bad magic and she's my best friend. And love my life. I love you polka dots. That's adorable. So weird that there's a Florida Missouri, a California Missouri, and a Nevada Missouri. I wonder if any state has a town called, what did you say? What are you from? What do you say? Maybe someone's your name and town shut the fuck up.

What are you from? Shut the fuck up. Recent free bird, Desiree Alvarez loving the suck and I love her attitude. She writes, hey master sucker, I just wanted to let you know your podcast rocks. I've recently been paroled after doing five years. I've completely turned my life around. I got a job that will cut that well, kind of blow sometimes because boring, so my brother suggested the suck. Been the best thing.

Now I'm excited to go to work because that's my only free time to listen without interruption from other meat sex. My brother also got my other brother hooked. So it's now a family affair. Thanks to my little brother Rubin. You blow in mind with the amount of research you do and time you take to make a laugh, entertain us and most importantly educate us. So thank you, sir, and keep on sucking.

Well, fucking thank you, Desiree. Good on you for turning your life around. I love the close to you, bros. I love the positivity I can feel in your email. No sense of shame in that message. You did your time, you're out, you're enjoying your fucking life. You're being positive. Keep on being positive and keep on sucking. You beautiful bastard with your bros

suck with your bros. Just one more today. It was a big ass episode. Washingtonian sweet sucker Kevin Miller writes, listen, mother sucker. I recently attended your show at Angel the Wins in Arlington Friday ago. First, I just wanted to blow your ego a bit. You murdered. You killed him. Everyone left the event center dead. That's very nice. Second, likely most important.

I was curious to know if you happen to notice a sweet couple that was roughly, that was roughly 1.25 million years old sitting just to your right in the second and third row. I noticed them when we sat down, fourth row, dead center. I was fearful. They were in over their heads. That their night was about to be ruined by your potty mouth. So I watched them creepily throughout the entire show. I do believe the wife quite possibly came to near a heart attack laughing so hard.

It was a good reminder for me not to place judgment on a group or individual based in their appearance. Also gave me hope that as I continue to age, my mindset and sense of humor will hopefully remain intact. Peace out. I did see them, Kevin. And I'll be honest, I had the same concerns. I saw them right when I walked out and I later felt like a fucking asshole. Because I know better.

Ages and is so real. Why do we do that? Why do we assume someone over the age of seven, your 80 can't handle profanity or vulgarity? Does there going to be a prude? Is it because comparatively, more from that generation or prudes or is that bullshit? Because someone that age today grew up in the counterculture right, let's have a lot of free love all that shit. They probably partied way fucking harder than we have have way crazier stories, so that's a good reminder like you said not to judge a book by its cover, I felt guilty after the show too. You know, we're not just stereotypical representatives of our age, race, gender, sexual orientation, whatever, or individuals.

Who does happen to look how we look? I'm glad you had fun, and I'm glad those two had fun as well. Hail, fucking Namroth. Thanks, time suckers. I need a net. We all did. Thanks again for listening to this Bad magic productions podcast, meetsak. Don't kill your parents this week and then go in a crazy spending spree and then tell a jury the murder plot began when your mom ripped off your brother's to pay which led your brother to talk about being sexually molested. It's probably not going to win over a jury.

The man in this bros, they got lucky that first time in court. Just set down the shotgun and keep on sucking. Business in a mall Making business move Investing in business things like chicken wings, places Trying to buy pizza, places, play antennas Rolex, watches, those are cool for business I like business So much business like business Money for business

I got a business money, money, one eight hundred business money, business money, business, business, business, business, my stuff, there's so much time for business.