Timesuck with Dan Cummins - 476 - The Backpacker Killer: Ivan Milat

Episode Date: October 13, 2025

When seven backpackers vanished in the early 1990s, the vast Australian bush became the hunting ground of a sadistic killer. For years, hikers stumbled upon shallow graves in Belanglo State Forest—each revealing new horrors and the same gruesome pattern of torture and execution. The man responsible, truck driver Ivan Milat, would become known as the “Backpacker Murderer,” one of Australia’s most infamous serial killers. This week, we dive into his brutal crimes, the survivor who helped catch him, and the darkness hiding along the open road.Merch and more: www.badmagicproductions.com Timesuck Discord! https://discord.gg/tqzH89vWant to join the Cult of the Curious PrivateFacebook Group? Go directly to Facebook and search for "Cult of the Curious" to locate whatever happens to be our most current page :)For all merch-related questions/problems: [e-mail] (copy and paste)Please rate and subscribe on Apple Podcasts and elsewhere and follow the suck on social media!! @timesuckpodcast on IG and http://www.facebook.com/timesuckpodcastWanna become a Space Lizard? Click here: https://www.patreon.com/timesuckpodcast.Sign up through Patreon, and for $5 a month, you get access to the entire Secret Suck catalog (295 episodes) PLUS the entire catalog of Timesuck, AD FREE. You'll also get 20% off of all regular Timesuck merch PLUS access to exclusive Space Lizard merch. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In September of 1992, two dead bodies were found in New South Wales in Australia's Belangelo State Forest. The heavily decomposed victims were soon identified as 21-year-old Caroline Clark and 22-year-old Joanne Walters, two British backpackers who have been exploring Australia. They've been missing since April the latest in a series of backpackers who had disappeared under suspicious circumstances. They'd also been brutally murdered. Joanne had been stabbed repeatedly. Her killer had deliberately paralyzed her, severing her spinal cord with his blade in a way that would have left her alive to be, in all likelihood, tortured. Caroline was shot in the head multiple times.

The press speculated that the murders were committed by an unknown serial killer, someone likely behind the disappearances of the other missing backpackers, but the police were reluctant to make that kind of official statement. But then the following year, in October of 1993, two more sets of human remains were found in the Balangelo State Forest, quickly identified as 19-year-olds James Gibson and Deborah Everest, two Australians who have been missing since 1989. Similar to the first crime scene, James had suffered paralyzing spinal wounds that would have left him immobilized, but still alive, aware but completely helpless to avoid whatever his killer still had in store for him. Debra had been stabbed as well. And now the New South Wales police acknowledged that, yes, they did believe that the same individual had committed these murders. They were, in fact, trying to find a serial killer.

And a serial killer task force was formed and began an extensive search of the area. That November, three more bodies were found. Missing German backpackers, 20-year-old Simone Schmiddle, 21-year-old Gabor Nuzbauer, and his girlfriend, 20-year-old Anya Habsheet. Seven backpackers now believed to have been tortured and killed by the same sadistic predator. The task force hotline was now inundated with thousands of calls, and quickly one name stood out above the rest, Malat. The task force quickly identified 49-year-old Ivan Malat as their prime suspect. Malat was a truck driver for Australia's roads and traffic authority.

He traveled around the state regularly, a job that would put him in frequent contact with hitchhikers. He lived within a two-hour drive of where the bodies had been found. The task force also learned that he had been acquitted of raping a female hitchhiker over two decades earlier. They dug into Ivan's pass further and made contact with a young man he had picked up hitchhiking years earlier, a young man who had verily nearly been killed by him. And now that one determined survivor's report would help lead to his arrest. This week, we'll cover the life in crimes known and suspected of one of Australia's most notorious serial killers, the backpacker murderer, Ivan Malat, a man's 60.

Minutes Australia called Australia's worst serial killer. In this October, true crime, serial killer, the real monsters are just as scary, if not more so, as the ones we watch in horror movie's edition of TimeSuck. This is Michael McDonald, and you're listening to TimeSuck. You're listening to Time Suck. Well, have you Monday, and welcome or welcome back to the Colt of the Curious. I'm Dan Cummets, Master Sucker, Chinese Procreation Patterns Specialist. Lubu, a Labibu Wrangler. Labu, Labu, Rangler, and you are listening to TimeSuck.

Hail Nimrod, Hail Lucifina, praise be to Good Boy, Bojangles, and Glory B to Triple M. Just one quick October announcement I'm excited about before we get in. True Tales of Hallows Eve, number five, right around the corner. Go to Bad Magic Productions.com to get your ticket. and join Lindsay and I on Thursday, October 23rd for Scare to Death's second favorite day of the year next to Halloween. We'll be coming to you live on video from here in the Scare to Dead studio. Logan Keith will be back in the control room, running the old cameras and doing the scoring live. The show begins at 6 p.m. Pacific time, 9 p.m. Eastern time.

It'll be a chat room full of a bunch of friends. Lindsay and I will be dressed up as vampires. I'll be sharing a new never-before-heard-heard-themed nightmare fuel story. Lindsay will be sharing some new fan stories and will help you get in the move for Halloween. Again, go to badmagic productions.com where we also have new merch to get your tickets.

I hope you show up. We've had so much fun with these things in the past and we're looking forward to doing it again. And now, story time. A pretty straightforward narrative structure today. Starting things off with an overview of the rise, fall, and danger as a hitchhiking, followed by a full timeline of the backpacker murders,

followed by an assessment of some other victims. We won't go over in the timeline who were probably killed by Ivan. And then my thoughts at the end, and that's it. In multiple episodes of Time Suck, we've talked about people hitchhiking all over the U.S. in the 1960s, 70s, 80s, and beyond. Unfortunately, many of those people, including the ones covered in today's episode, were attacked or murdered by a serial guy.

killer and they all have one thing in common they deserved it if you hitchhiking you get killed it's on you it's your fault that is the rule don't get mad at me i don't make the rules don't get fucking mad at me for being insensitive someone told me that once that if you hitchhike and something happens to you you deserve it and they seem pretty confident about what they were saying so i've decided to just accept it at face value and not think about it anymore uh no that's absurd uh no uh that's crazy hitchhiking serial killing have gone hand in hand in far too many cases, sadly. The popularity of hitchhiking, although I'm sure people, you know, hitch rides with strangers here and there before this, of course, you know, going back to the advent of the

automobile or probably before that, I'm sure people were hitching rides here and there on a fucking horse and buggy or just a horse. But the popularity of it dates back in most Western nations like the U.S. and Australia to World War II when there was a shortage of cars and gasoline, tires, and other car parts due to the war effort. It was common to see soldiers, hitchhiking in many places. And civilians were. often, you know, more than willing to give them a ride, especially if they were in uniform. Seem safe. It seemed like, you know, you're doing something to help a soldier out, help the war effort out if you're giving somebody ride.

Transportation Behavior Consultant has a very specific job. Alan Pissarsky, an American man who is frequently testified in both houses of the U.S. Congress. On many occasions regarding economic and demographic factors that define travel demand, infrastructure, investment requirements, and public policy regarding travel. told NPR that the next few decades following World War II were the, quote, golden era of hitchhiking. Certainly that was the peak. It was an era of good feeling, an era of people being very comfortable with each other,

a we're all in this together sort of thing. And then he posed the question, so what happened regarding a decline in hitchhiking beginning in the late 70s and early 80s? Well, murder happened, Alan, you fucking dult. Actually, a lot of things happened. It'll lead to a decrease in the popularity of hitchhiking. On some parts of the world where fewer people own cars, hitchhiking still common today.

For example, Cuba has laws that require government vehicles to pick up hitchhikers. And civilian drivers are typically willing to pick up hitchhikers as well, but not in places like Australia. Since we have more stats regarding hitchhiking in the U.S. than in Australia, at least from what, you know, I've been able to find. I'll share both U.S. and Australian info to paint a picture of the rise and fall of hitchhiking in both countries. one of the main causes of a decline of hitchhiking or, you know, main causes for the decline of hitchhiking in both nations was a rise not in murders but in car ownership, which makes sense. Not as darkly fascinating, though.

Yeah, you don't need to thumb down a ride if you already have a ride. From 1960 to 2010, the percentage of American households that did not own cars decreased from around 20%, a little more than 20% to less than 10%. In Australia, the increase in ownership, even more, drastic. In 1960, barely more than one in 10 Australian adults owned a motor vehicle, but by 1986, nearly five in 10 did. The advent of the interstate system also helped squash the popularity of hitchhiking by both making it a crime on these motorways and also by bypassing the kinds of places where hitchhikers traditionally caught rides. Also, the U.S. Interstate Highway System

established in the 50s made it much faster and easier to travel long distances by car. making cars, you know, that much more desirable. And also more people wanting cars led to more car manufacturers making more cars and more market competition for these cars led to cars becoming more affordable for Americans. Australia's federal interstate highway system, known as the National Highway System, was officially established by the National Roads Act in 1974, although the federal government had been involved in road funding since the 1920s, and made significant improvements to the network following World War II.

And just like in the U.S., better roads, criss-crossing the country, led to cars being more desirable, which led to more incentive for people to jump into the car dealership business, which led to more market competition and, again, cheaper cars for Australians. Also, with the construction of these high-speed interstate systems, it suddenly became a lot more dangerous for cars to pull over and pick up a hitchhiker on the side of the road. Also became more dangerous for hitchhiker to walk along the side of the road, and laws were passed prohibiting hitchhiking. Along the interstate, this alone, you know, made hitchhiking much, much less popular. Before the interstate, drivers would pass through small towns on slower state routes. It'd slow way down in town for, you know, much lower speed limits. They'd encounter stoplights and stop signs. They'd drive past cafes and gas stations and bus stops, you know, with sidewalks out in front,

places where hitchhikers would comfortably hang out, stick their thumbs out, hoping for a ride. But also, there was that whole pesky rise of so, many fucking serial killers, mostly in the U.S., preying on so many hitchhikers, primarily in the 70s and 80s. Law enforcement started to warn the public against hitchhiking in the 70s, even if they went about it the wrong way and kind of got shit backwards. For example, in 1973, the FBI published a poster warning drivers that a hitchhiker may be, quote, a sex maniac or a vicious murderer.

Kind of funny descriptive terms there. Not like a rapist. He's a sex maniac. Oh, you let that hitchhiker in your car He'll be fucking your ear Against the windshield He's a maniac He's crazy about sex

He'll be slapping his balls in your eye When you're trying to see the road Or a vicious murder Not just a murderer A vicious man Oh, he's not just going to murder you He is going to fucking Cut your legs off

One by one Of course Word of this These vicious murderers Sex maniacs It doesn't stay in the US And it makes it abroad To places like Australia

Other law enforcement campaigns around this time emphasized the risk for women specifically. They got things right in the sense that hitchhikers themselves should be way more worried that people picking up or way more worried that people picking up the hitchhikers were the sex maniacs and the vicious murderers.

Ginger Strand, author of Killer on the Road, Violence in the American Interstate wrote in a New York Times piece that officers at Rutgers University started handing out cards to female hitchhikers that said, if I were a rapist, you'd be in trouble. Yeah, they were right.

but true. Hopefully when they handed out those cards, they didn't fucking wink. That'd be a really bad card to, like, wink when you handed it out. And you got to watch how you, you know, just that whole interaction could get real fucking creepy. If I were rapists, you'd be in trouble. Wink? Huh? Hmm? Hollywood, unfortunately, got things wrong for the most part. More and more movies began to depict the psychopathic hitchhiker trope, as opposed to the psychopathic person picking up the hitchhiker. Still, the end result was the same. A huge slump in hitchhiking and the 80s and 90s. And still today, hitchhiking is perceived as a dangerous activity. Very few drivers

are willing to pick up a hitchhiker in places like the U.S. and Australia. But is hitchhiking actually as dangerous as it is made out to be? In her op-ed for the New York Times, author Ginger Strand, notes that we don't have solid evidence that hitchhikers or drivers are actually more likely to be raped or murdered than anybody else. And that surprised me. Anecdotally, it sure as hell seems like you're a lot more likely to be raped and or murdered. but when you dig into the overall stats, hitchhiking has never actually been that dangerous, but I still wouldn't recommend it.

A 1974 study by the California Highway Patrol concluded, The results do not show that hitchhikers are overrepresented in crimes or accidents beyond their numbers. British sociologist David Smith explained to Vox in 2015, A fear of strangers has blossomed in American society over the past few decades, people who don't have cars and are trying to hitchhike might be perceived as weirder, more deviant or more dangerous. But maybe not.

Maybe still the people picking up the hitchhikers that are weird and deviant and dangerous more oftentimes. I've come across a lot of stories about the hitchhiker being murdered. I can't think off the top of my head of ever coming across one where the hitchhiker was the murderer. And doing some Googling, it was nearly impossible

to find crimes that fit that criteria. Returning to the same 1970, California Highway Patrol study in hitchhikers, which looked at interstate crimes occurring in California over a six-month-long period, it found that in crimes involving hitchhikers, 71.7% of the time, the hitchhiker was the victim. They were the perpetrator 28.3% of the time,

which is still a lot, but in almost every single case, where they were the perpetrator, the crime was theft-related, not physical and or sexual violence. During that period, studied in 1974, only one hitchhiker attempted to raise, whoever pulled them over or you know whoever gave them a ride uh and the victim was able to fight them off female hitchhikers were seven to ten times more likely to be victims of crimes than male

hitchhikers and about 80% of the crimes against female hitchhikers were sex related most dangerous to be a female being picked up as a hitchhiker in this scenario uh a fully 50 different female hitchhikers were the victims of rape or some other sex crime in that six month long study that's fucking terrifying in just one state three male hitchhiker were raped two others sexually assaulted in some other way so again hitchhiking can certainly be dangerous but when it is dangerous historically it is generally far more dangerous for the person being picked up than it is for the person picking someone up uh not that i advise you know driving around just picking up fucking hitchhackers willy-nilly shifting to australia now where today's

episode takes place uh it was once normal uh quite common actually to see hitchhiking stations at various universities where students waited to get a ride. It was that popular. And by and large, you know, it was considered very safe, clearly. But now it's illegal altogether in the states of Queensland in Victoria, also illegal to hitchhike on the interstate system, similar to how it is in the U.S. Anyone caught hitchhiking in prohibited areas

could face fines up to $3,200 Australian dollars. History professor Linda Mahoud, Mahud, excuse me, is glad to see this era of hitchhiking gone in Australia. she has said if you hitchhiked enough you'd get a bad driver and eventually everybody would have their share of bad drivers I interviewed women who jumped out of moving cars I interviewed a woman whose friend was murdered

hitchhiking in Australia was already on the way out by the time the crime is covered in today's episode you know went down and then the infamous backpacker murderers committed by serial killer Ivan Malat were the final nails in the coffin of Australian hitchhiking's popularity The historian author, Dr. Alice Garner, told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, quote, It was a true horror story.

Anyone who starts to explore the history and the practice of hitchhiking can't afford to ignore the bad stuff. Ivan Malat targeted innocent and adventurous young people, most of them on vacation, hitchhiking across Australia. Several known victims came from abroad to explore a new country. They had a whole bunch of fun. They met a bunch of wonderful Australian people, saw so many cool sites. but then they accepted a ride from one of Australia's worst ever people. Ivan Malat not knowing they were getting into a vehicle with a sadistic serial killer, not knowing that all their vacation fun was over and now only pain and death awaited.

And with that, let's now begin a timeline of the life and crimes of the backpacker murderer. Shrap on those boots, soldier, we're marching down a time-sunk timeline. Ivan Robert Marco Milat, born December 27th, 1944, in Guildford, a suburb of Sydney, Australia. According to Biography.com, quote, family life was rural and insular, and the Milats kept to themselves, making reliable information about Malat's upbringing difficult to obtain. And I will add that after watching footage of family members being interviewed by journalists associated with 60 Minutes Australia over the years, in a couple different episodes. They seem super clannish, very secretive, and frankly, pretty fucking trashy and protective of each other, like in a weird way. Outside of Ivan's older brother Boris, they seem sketchy as shit.

Boris seems great. He despises his late brother for what he has done and has not been afraid to tell journalists the truth that his brother Ivan was a fucking monster, and that his family has been wrong to have supported him since his conviction for multiple murders, that they're crazy for doing so. but the rest of the Malats There's been a lot of speculation on Ivan's mother and some of his brothers

actively hid evidence of his worst crimes and that one or two of his brothers may have even helped him commit some of the murders these don't seem like good folks Ivan's father was Stefan Marco Malat

who later took the name Stephen Stephen was born on December 26th 1902 in Blato a municipality on the Croatian island of Kortula he was one of get this 22 children that's fucking wild

22 same mom and dad that poor woman's vagina like a fucking punching bag just got beat up every year equally insane only four of those kids survived into their teens what the fuck was going on in that house

22 kids and four make it to adulthood those kids were apparently being treated like some cheap shit you'd buy at the dollar store you know I don't like it that's okay just throw it away we'll get some more Stephen moved to Australia to age of 24.

He worked as a minor in Queensland before moving to Sydney, where he held a variety of odd jobs. Stephen was working as a wharf laborer in 1934 when he was 32 years old, when he met, gross, 14-year-old Margaret Piddleston from Western Sydney. And they married two years later after courting. If math isn't your thing, they married when she was 16 and he was 34, after they dated for two years. So, uh, Ivan's dad clearly about it.

pedophile. I know it was a different time, but that's fucking insane. That's insane and gross to happen in any time. I feel like the world just has a lot of pedophiles in the past. I know, you know, it's like, I've tried to rationalize him. Like, oh, you know, it's a different time. Fucking 14's 14. What are we doing? When you're in your 30s as a man and a girl is 14, you're a fucking creep. You're fucking creep. Uh, the couple moved between Sydney and Newcastle as Steven sought work. Ivan was the fifth of their 14 children. Unfortunately, all of Stephen's kids would make it to adulthood. It's a bummer he didn't have the same ratio that his parents did, considering how these kids turned out. By the early 40s, when the family had at least four kids, they were living in a

shed on a property in Rosmore, another suburb of Sydney. Man, Margaret's parents must have just been so delighted for their teen daughter. She married a man twice her age, a man who, you know, should have been settled into a career of some sort, but nope, nope, still couldn't provide enough for his young family to have them not live in a shed. Stephen tried his hand at growing vegetables to sell in markets, occasionally work as a stone mason. He sounds like a bum. The kids helped with the gardening until one season when their entire crop was stolen, Margaret told her husband he needed a new job, or I guess a job.

I don't think fucking work in your garden, your house counts as a job. Despite the disturbing age gap and Stephen's lack of ambition, despite the bad income to unprotected sex ratio, a friend of Ivans later said that the family was, quote, very close like a family should be. Agree to disagree, friend of Ivans. Margaret and Stephen were described as conscientious parents who sent their kids to Catholic schools

Stephen the family disciplinarian was described as strict but fair, typically had a quiet demeanor but could have quite the temper when the boys misbehaved those who knew the family believed that his temper was affected by his struggles with alcohol all right, a little more insight into Stephen and old Stevie

he liked to drink, maybe more than he liked to work, liked very young teen girls, it makes you wonder what kind of secrets his kids might have kept regarding who dad really was. Margaret has been described as being permissive but protective of her kids. All ten of their boys would become known to local police due to a propensity for, you know, stealing shit and just getting into trouble making.

It was not uncommon for officers to pay a visit to the family shed. This family is a complete fucking shit show. I gotta go over to the Malat Shed again. The boy spent way too much time playing around with hunting knives and guns, not enough time reading books. or anything at all. They enjoyed spending their afternoons. Target shooting around the family property,

getting out of the shed. That's cool. Propensity for trouble making, creepy dad, living in the shed, strong enters and knives and guns. What can go wrong? How could a serial killer ever come out of this family? These people were borderline feral. Stephen Millat never made enough money

to comfortably care for his kids. He had little energy to devote to them when he got home from his physically demanding jobs when he was working, when he was sober, Ivan's older brother Boris said in interviews that Ivan was always a troubled child like even for this family

he was troubled Boris said he was known to have attacked animals including local pets with knives so that's cool and by the age of 13 he was spending time in a reform school of sorts for you know kids who were fucking trouble Boris seems to have been of the mind

that Ivan was basically born bad you know there were no angels in this family at least not amongst the boys but Ivan was a actual devil Ivan's formal education ended when he attended the Patrician Brothers Catholic High School in Liverpool, New South Wales

before dropping out at the age of 15 his first recorded crimes occurred two years later in 1962 when the then 17-year-old Ivan got caught burglarized in a house he was put on probation until the age of 18 but then later the same year

he was charged with breaking and entering with intent to steal and now he was committed to a juvenile institution for six months and when he got out he quickly started to fuck Not one, but two of his brother's wives, different brothers. What a guy.

This guy, he just keeps getting better. His brother, Wally, had married a neighbor girl named Marine when Ivan was incarcerated. She was just 14 or 15 when she met the Milats, which, you know, was perfect. The Milats, they liked him young. And when Ivan got out of jail, Marine asked him while the two were driving around somewhere for some reason, what were you in jail for? Did you murder someone? And he allegedly said, yeah. I did.

I killed a man with a knife and buried him in the bush. And then he started laughing. And Marine didn't know if he was joking or telling the truth. But when she was interviewed decades later in 2019, in her gut, she thinks he was already killing way back then. And despite him saying that creepy shit, she still fucked him. She was young.

And she said, you know, basically that she was, basically she said the equivalent, the female equivalent, she was young, dumb, and full of calm. She said she was young, you know, filled with hormones. basically he was like exciting in this like hot bad boy kind of way you know

had a lot of muscles didn't give any fucks and I will say Ivan was you know for his free life very very fit he was actually pretty handsome dude for most of his life thick head of wavy hair strong jawline uh you know he had like a nice eyes

bulging biceps you know he was definitely attractive in that you know dark handsome bad boy ruffian does anybody say ruffin anymore kind of way. Ivan Marine would have an affair off and on behind Wally's back for years. And while he was sleeping with his brother, Wally's wife, in 1964, Ivan, only 20 years old, began to also have an affair with his brother, Boris, his wife, Marilyn.

For fuck's sake. This is the trashiest family. Dude was sleeping with two of his brother's wives during the same span of time, while also sleeping with other women he was dating or hooking up with. And he managed to get Boris's wife pregnant. The next year, Marilyn had a daughter. named Lines, it was apparently an open secret in the Malat family that Ivan was the real father. Boris in Maryland's marriage was already on the rocks when she has his kid the affair

marked the start of a lifelong feud Boris will have with Ivan. They will never reconcile. I mean, yeah. I mean, dude fucks his wife. Well, fuck another brother's wife. That's a pretty good way to permanently destroy a lot of brotherly love. Boris, to his credit, will proceed to raise as if she was his own daughter Ivan unsurprisingly will not do anything to help René's Linne's because he's a piece of shit also in 1964 Ivan was

back in court for two charges of breaking and entering and theft he was convicted sentenced to 18 months in jail a month after his release he will be arrested and he actually serves his sentence this time he'll be arrested for driving a stolen car now just a month after it gets out now sentenced to two years hard labor

he'll only serve around a year of that long before this guy became a serial killer, at least that we know of, he was already a complete piece of shit, with zero hope of being rehabilitated. He's killing pets with a knife, excuse me. He's fucking two sister-in-laws that we know of, dropped out of school at 15, probably killed at least one person, you know, let his body in the bush, continually in and out of jail, but mostly in jail. Are there any stories of anyone fucking up this badly? Like doing that amount of gross shit by the age of 20, who then turn their life around and lead a productive, honorable life going forward? I doubt it.

I mean, if there are, I would like to think there are, but if there are, I don't know about them. Send an email in, correct me, if you know a story of somebody who started out like this level of bat, and then just turn it around and just kicked ass, you know, for years ever since. In November of 1965, shortly after getting out, Ivan's arrested again, charged with steel and a motor vehicle, some electrical goods, and a leather jacket. I bet it was a sweet jacket. He receives another two-year sentence. He will not fully serve. he's released April of 1967 then four months later

charged with being an accessory to stealing that October he sends to three years hard labor he'll actually serve those three years when he gets out according to his brother Boris and some other sources you know he goes of course right back to committing crimes no intention of living a straight life not fully but he will not get caught right away again

he will it seems start kidnapping hitchhikers and very likely raping and murdering some of them though in a 2019 interview with Australia's nine news a man named Ian Hamer claimed to have been nearly killed by Ivan after he was picked up while hitchhiking in 1971. Ian was just

15 at that time. Ivan was now 26. Ian was hitchhiking around he was hitchhiking, excuse me, home to Wollongong, a city of around 300,000, about an hour and a half south of Sydney, hour and a half drive south of Sydney.

South of Sydney, why can't I say that? After being fired from his job at the Warwick Farm Racetrack in Sydney. So the young dude, the kid, already having a rough day, just lost his job, and now he meets a monster. Ivan pulled up alongside Ian, offered him a ride. Ian, after noticing another passenger in the vehicle, got in, got in the back. He recalled about the experience later.

It just seemed a little strange because we were driving along the Wollongong turnoff, and the Canberra turnoff was there, and they took the Canber turnoff, so not where he needed to go. Ian said the passenger talked the whole time, told Ian they knew the roads very well when Ian mentioned his older brother, was a paratrooper in the army. The passenger said the driver, who the passenger addressed as Ivan, was also in the army, which he wasn't. Then he said, quote, and then the driver looked at me in the rear vision mirror, and it was just horrifying. He said the driver's eyes were, quote, scary as hell, like black, dark. Ein was told to get out of the car after the passenger convinced the driver that Ian's family knew he was coming home. So that's a little suspicious. Who was that passenger? Iver's friend, accomplice, one of his brothers. We don't know. And now, before I share a crime, Ivan was accused of,

that will preview the kind of crimes he later commits over and over. Time for today's first at two mid-show sponsor breaks. If you don't want to hear these ads ever again, please sign up to be a space lizard on Patreon, help us make monthly charitable contributions, get the catalog ad free, get episodes three days early, and more. Thanks for listen to our sponsors.

Hope you heard a deal that makes sense for you. And now let's return to 1971, when Ivan first gets arrested for the kind of crime he'll later become notorious for. On April 10th, 1971, Ivan, impressively not back in jail, picked up a pair of 18-year-old hitchhikers traveling together, identified as Margaret and Greta at Liverpool, and offered to take them to Canberra.

When they were near the town of Goldburn, approximately 195 kilometers or 121 miles southwest of Sydney and 90 kilometers or 56 miles northeast of Canberra, he took them to a secluded area, told them he wanted to, quote, make love to both of them. When they strongly rejected his advance, he threatened them with not one but two knives

and says he's got a knife in each hand. And he said, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to kill the both of you. You won't scream when I cut your throats, will you? Either one of you has sex, either one of you has sex with me or I will kill you both. Greta pleaded with him to drive away,

leave them alone. He refused. He continued to threaten them, and then he tied them up. Finally, Margaret agreed to have sex with Ivan if he promised not to kill them. Ivan then unbound Margaret's feet raped her and ordered Greta

to look out for any cars while he did so when he was done Ivan drove them to a gas station where the women were able to free themselves and escape when he was inside and then called the police soon after Ivan's arrested after he led police on a high-speed chase and he is charged with rape he told the police

the sex was consensual I mean she did technically agree officer I mean yeah I was going to kill her if she didn't but you know she still said yes August of 1971 While Ivan's awaiting trial for this rape His younger brother Michael He's interviewed about a robbery

At the Bank of New South Wales In the Sydney suburbs Michael said his accomplices Were John Poach, John Preston And his brother Ivan Of course They stole 360 bucks from the bank And they were armed with a sought-off shotgun

And they used Ivan's vehicle As a getaway car Poach also implicated Ivan In his interview He was asked about another robbery From July 23rd and he implicated Ivan in that crime as well. Ivan was interviewed on August 7th, he was told Michael had already admitted to the crime

and said, quote, if your brother puts you in, it's not much good trying to get out of it. I was in it, but it wasn't my idea. Interesting logic. Ivan was charged with assault and robbery while armed in two counts of carrying an unlicensed pistol. And then his weak-willed mom put up the cash for his bail. And then while he was out on bail, a warrant was issued for his arrest regarding the previous rape charge, not sure why they suddenly decided to put him in jail while he's awaiting trial, but they did.

Maybe they were worried that he was a flight risk after the other charges were at him. Ivan out decided he was not willing to risk going back to prison, possibly for a long time, so he fled the country. Just say goodbye to that bail money mom. Authorities believe he fled to Queensland, then Victoria, then to New Zealand, where he stayed for two full years,

did God knows how much horrible shit. Then he snuck back to Australia with a fake passport, after he got into some kind of trouble with New Zealand authorities, according to sources. We don't exactly know what kind of trouble he got into. Ivan was on the run until April 25th, 1974, when he was caught while visiting his mom in the hospital after she had suffered a heart attack. Yeah, fucking her bright kids gave her heart attack. Ivan believed his brother Boris turned him in, and I hope Boris did. Ivan finally went to trial on the rape charges in December of 1974.

Sources are not clear what became of the other charges. his defense attorney John Martson accused the victims of being lesbians who are receiving psychiatric treatment and using prescription drugs. Oh no, not lesbians who are using the proper psychiatric drugs for some kind of

mental health situation. What does any of that have to do with, you know, a claim of being raped, you asked? I've fucking no idea. Margaret acknowledged she was confused about her sexual orientation. She also said she blamed herself for the incident. That's fucking just sad. Greta testified that Ivan threatened

threaten them at knife point and raped her friend. Greta also testified that after Ivan raped Margaret, Margaret asked him if he had done this before and he said that he had. He said that he often picked up hitchhikers and he kept knives and ropes with him in case there was an opportunity. Ultimately, the jury will acquit Ivan on December 9th, 1974. What a bunch of bullshit. I mean, he fled to fucking country.

But, you know, sometimes jurors are stupid. And it is shit like that that discourages sexual assault victims from coming forward. uh 1975 following his acquittal ivan moved back in with his parents in gilford started uh working as a truck driver now excuse me in october of that year ivan's friend wayne introduced him to his younger sister karen merle duck uh karen was 17 Ivan was 31 oh good job way to look out for little sits these fucking losers they always go for someone too young to understand how fucked up they are don't they uh Ivan's not quite as creepy as his dad here at least i guess Ivan and Karen started dating within two weeks and meet each other. Karen failed to mention she was six weeks pregnant at the time they met. A week after they became official, Ivan and Karen were out for a drive when he suddenly stopped the car, grabbed her by the throat, and raped her. Karen did not tell the police about this for two decades, not until 1994. She said, he grabbed me by the throat and I just sort of lay there and said he could help himself because I'd had it.

That is fucking sad. Karen sadly stayed with Ivan after this, and when she eventually told him he was, she was pregnant, he claimed to have already known. Karen's son Jason will be born July 24th, 1976. That same year, another young man had a close encounter with Ivan while hitchhiking in the Sydney area. Lindsay Buckland will tell Australia's nine news in 2019 that he left his home in Canberra to attend an alternative music festival south of Sydney.

He was a 19-year-old self-described hippie, and Ivan picked him up while he was hitchhiking. And when Lindsay got into the passenger seat, he noticed a bottle of water and some coiled up rope in the vehicle. He was then firmly instructed to drink the water. That's just a bit terrifying. Definitely want to assume the water's been spiked with something in that situation. Soon after drinking whatever he drank, Ivan appeared to fall into a trance. Maybe he had drank whatever drug was in the water as well, and he began to drive erratically. Lindsay asked to be let out. Then he grabbed the steering wheel to keep them in their lane, and that snapped Ivan out of his trance. He pulled over to the side of the Hume Highway near the Balangelo Forest turnoff. And when Lindsay got out to

pick up his backpack Ivan also got out and Lindsay recalled quote he's just standing behind me hovering over me all of a sudden he reaches in the back of the cabin behind the seat and I see this rifle being pulled out and Lindsay ran off and was luckily able to escape unharmed not sure if whatever he may have drank you know hit him later Ivan and his girlfriend Karen meanwhile lived with her parents for two years because he's a fucking bum before she and Ivan moved into a camper and before she and Ivan moved to a camper before she and Ivan moved into a camper in the yard of Ivan's family home in Guildford. Oh, this guy, man, what a catch!

What a catch! It's got so much great shit going on. Karen would at least get along well with Ivan's parents. She described his father, Stephen, as quote, a nice person who kept very much to himself, while Margaret was very permissive with the children. Initially, Karen said that Ivan was kind to her son, spoiled him with gifts. Ivan said that, you know, he wanted to have a baby with Karen at some point. he hoped they would have a girl,

but then at some point he just changed his mind and told her he would literally shoot her dead if he ever found out she was pregnant. So he's a maniac. 1980, Ivan got a loan so he and Karen could move into their own house in Blackett, a suburb of Sydney. Years later, Karen would hear that Ivan and his brother Wally

wanted to purchase a different property but the owner wouldn't sell it to them so they went to that property at night and shot all of that guy's cows dead. These guys! Oh, the Malap boys! I haven't started to regularly abuse Karen After they moved into their own place away from his parents He became very controlling of her in many ways

Controlling of their money only gave her enough to buy food Became obsessed with cleansliness Criticized her if he found any dirt or dust in the house He would fly into the occasional rage over nothing Once in 1982 Ivan lost his temper And completely destroyed their coffee table in the living room And then, and this is so odd He put all the broken fragments

He just placed him into a pile on the floor and said he would destroy the entire fucking house if Karen threw even one piece of that table out. So for quite some time, doesn't say how long, they just had a pile of broken wood where a table should have been. All right? Karen later described Ivan as gun crazy.

He enjoyed shooting kangaroos in the Blangelo State Forest. Not for the meat. He'd just like to kill shit. Ivan's brother Wally allowed him to purchase guns under his name since Ivan couldn't due to his criminal status. despite how much worse he kept behaving Karen and Ivan got married in 1983 but then something happened between the two

and she moved back in with her mom shortly after that Ivan convinced her to come back home with some apologetic phone calls and letters but then when she did you know things of course did not improve they really never do in these situations instead Ivan accused Karen of having an affair with the neighbor just a meritless accusation and remember this is the guy who slept with

at least two of his sister-in-laws no way he's being faithful now he's probably projecting onto Karen the kind of shit that he was doing or wanted to do Ivan gets more abusive now he starts literally throwing things at her if he finds even like you know dust in the house he loses his temper if he catches her talking to the neighbors

like any neighbors doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman doesn't want her to have any friends of either sex he wants through a cup of hot coffee near little Jason when Jason refused to take his asthma medication scared the boy so bad he actually fainted when he was away for the night Ivan would call to make sure Karen was home and alone. He once punched Karen's brother unconscious because of a drunken comment that

the guy had made about him. Ivan also went off on Karen in front of a friend, and when she didn't just take it, he pulled her outside, put a gun to her head in front of whoever happened to be present, and openly threatened to kill her if she ever did shit like that ever again. Ivan also started talking casually about killing women around Karen. One day they saw a girl hitchhiking while they were out for a drive, and Ivan said to Karen, she's going to get rooted. killed and rooted and rooted his slaying for sex on another occasion ivan claimed he picked up a hitchhiker and told karen quote she just got rooted and dropped off ivan also claimed to have killed a man and left his body out in the bush uh same claim he'd once made to his sister-in-law slash lover marine and he made sure karen knew that no matter how he treated her she was going to fucking take it because if he ever tried to leave him he'd kill her Karen, to her credit, did leave him, though. Hail Karen.

She left Ivan in February of 1987. The final straw was when during another violent argument, Ivan threw a glass that almost hit her son. And then a year after she left, Karen's mom's house burned downed. That's a weird coincidence. Investigators declared that it was arson and Karen was convinced Ivan was responsible. He contacted Karen's mom, demanding she tell him where Karen was living previous to this and literally threatened to burn her fucking house down. if she didn't give him the information which she did not

dude was just such a fucking consistent menace Ivan was interviewed by the police but of course denied starting the fire and despite their suspicions despite the threat he had made apparently they didn't have enough evidence to make an arrest when he was not burning his wife's mom's house down Ivan was dating around this time

you know good for him you know get out there have some fun enjoy your life fucking hate these guys he had several girlfriends after his breakup with Karen because oh man too many women just have low self-esteem. So sad that fucking people date guys like this. One of them was his brother's ex-wife, Maryland.

And these guys are, I shouldn't just say that. It's not like it's just on the woman here. These guys are so fucking manipulative. It's not like they present themselves as abusive. They actually are often quite charming. Okay, anyway, one of the people he's dating, his brother's ex-wife, Marilyn, one of the sister-in-laws he'd had an affair with.

They're back. That's great. They'd reconnected in early 1988. Oh, fuck yeah, bro. Let's get this band back together. Maryland actually wanted to marry Ivan, because that wouldn't be weird. He and Karen were in the process of getting divorced now, but Ivan not interested. From 1989 to 1992, Ivan lived at his parents' house in Guildford. Of course he did.

Fucking deadbeat loser. As in his late 30s, still can't consistently pay his own way through life. He's too busy fucking up the lives of everybody else around him to focus on, I don't know, just steady employment. his divorce with Karen is finalized in October of 1989 while he's lived with mom and dad again while Ivan is not focused on putting together any sort of plan for his life a good plan

more people disappear or I should say I guess we haven't talked about people disappearing around him yet some people have probably already been disappearing but some people definitely disappear now January 15th 1990 Deborah Everest and James Gibson both 19 years old were reported missing by their mothers

at the Frankston Police Station in Melbourne James and Deborah left the city on December 28th, including, intending to hitchhike to Sydney to see James Friends in Surrey Hills. After that, they planned to go to the Confest Conservation Festival in the tiny little 200-ish-person town of Wawa. An interest of Deborah's, she was an environmental activist. James and Deborah had met at a concert months prior. Deborah was planning on starting college later in 1990.

I mean, these two were so young, right? Having so much fun. The pair of Lassian in Sydney on December 30, they never made it to that festival. March 13th, 1990, a driver headed down Galston Road near Galston Gorge, 36 kilometers or 22 miles northwest of Sydney, sees a red backpack on the side of the road.

Inside is the name Gibson, with an address and phone number. The driver spoke to James' poor worried mother on the phone and then took the backpack to the police. Rewinding a bit just days after the backpackers were reported missing. A third man had a heroin encounter with Ivan Malat. on January 25th, 1990, 24-year-old British hitchhiker Paul Unions.

It's kind of a funny last name. Mr. Unions was out hitchhiking when he was picked up by a man on the highway who then attempted to rob him at gunpoint. Paul had been staying in a backpacker hostel at the Kings Cross or in the Kings Cross neighborhood of Sydney. Paul had been sightseeing, partying with some friends, but he was running low on money, looking for some part-time work. He'd been looking into jobs in the Sydney area, but not having any luck finding something. and a friend suggested he go pick some fruit. Paul learned most of that work was being done several hundred miles south, so he decided he would save some money by taking the train to Liverpool, then hitchhiking the rest of the way to find that work.

He set out for the train station January 25th, and a little while later he was hitchhiking along the side of the Hume Highway in Liverpool near the Belangelo State Forest. Paul walked until he started to feel pretty beat down from the heat, got pretty thirsty, stopped at a small shopping center to get himself a cold soda, actually was considering turning around heading back to the hostel in Sydney when a man approached and asked if he needed a ride

seemed like a nice enough guy Paul accepted got into his car driver introduced himself as Bill of course this is Ivan Bill asked seemingly normal questions for a while but then Paul's stranger danger radar started to go off

when he started asking questions like who knows you're here how nervous would you be if you took a ride from some dude some stranger and he asked who knows you're here That's terrifying That's right up there with

Bet you 20 bucks You can't get out of these handcuffs And how long's it been Since you've been tied up in the woods And butt fucked by a stranger Right Those are also alarming things to be said In a hitchhiking situation

Still Bill despite saying some creepy shit Seem friendly enough Maybe just had a weird sense of humor Who knows So Paul answered his questions Bill told Paul that he worked on the roads He was Yugoslavian lived near Liverpool. He was divorced. Then after about an hour of driving, Bill launched into some

sort of racist tirade. Seems right for Ivan. It seems like a kind of loser who would turn to racism to make himself feel superior to something. When he was done, he got really sullen and quiet, didn't want to talk to anybody. Or didn't want to talk anymore, excuse me. And now Paul really began to regret getting into this car. He started to feel very uneasy. Eventually, Bill said he was going to pull over and get some more cassette tapes out of the back for them to listen to some new music. Paul's radar went off again when he looked down, noticed a whole tray of cassette tapes in front of the console on the seat in between them. There was no reason to go into the back. Bill's stories seemed like a bunch of bullshit, so Paul decided he's getting out of the car as well, or truck, whatever.

Bill yelled for him to get back in once they were both back inside. Bill reached under his seat, pulled out a gun. He pointed it to Paul and shouted, this is a robbery. As Paul later recalled to the New Zealand Herald, I can remember the silver bullets shining in the chamber. But then I saw the rope, and that scared me more. regarding the bundle of rope down on the floorboards he said oh that's going to take a bit of time he's going to do whatever he wants paul had already told the man he had no money so he did not think this was about a robbery at all he thought this guy wanted to torture and possibly kill him

which he did uh bill told paul to shut up put his seatbelt on but instead paul grabbed the door handle jumped out he later said i just thought this is it run or die so i undid my seatbelt and jumped straight out of the vehicle and ran good for him Bill had threatened to shoot him if he ran but Paul continued fleeing into oncoming traffic which is smart right in a situation like this the guy's definitely going to shoot you if you don't run away like probably

99 to 100%. So you might as well run right easier said than done I know but you definitely should run I admire how Paul handled himself here Paul quickly flagged down a van and as he ran towards it Bill tackled him from behind

luckily Paul managed to push him off get into the van he jumped inside without permission pleading with a driver a driver named Joanne Barry. He's got a gun, help me. Joanne's sister and her four kids also in the car, right? This is so dramatic. They're terrified. They almost asked Paul to get out, but Joanne could see terror on his face, real terror, and instead threw the van into reverse, hit the gas pedal, and then, you know,

turned around, drove him to the nearest police station. As she started to back away, she saw Ivan slash Bill run back to his car carrying something, presumably Paul's duffel bag. She didn't stick around to investigate further. Paul told his story to Constable, at Nicholson in Bowerl, the nearest town. He described the driver, the vehicle, the bag he had left behind that had his passport in it, unfortunately. The constable sent out a radio, or excuse me, sent out a report on the radio, advised Paul to go back to the hostel, gave him 20 bucks because he had no money, told him without a

registration number there was a little chance of finding this vehicle. Paul went to the British High Commission to get a new passport within weeks. He found another job. His girlfriend came down from England. They traveled around Northern Australia for a few weeks and then went home. home. So things ended well for him, right? Things turned around and I love it. And it'll be several more years now before Paul will realize he had escaped a serial killer. And now let's meet some other hitchhikers who sadly were not as lucky as Paul. A year later, January 25th, 1991,

Irwinia Schmiddle reported her daughter Simone missing in Melbourne. Melbourne. Erwinia flew to Australia from her home in Regensborg in Germany to meet Simone, but she never showed up. year old Simone had been traveling around Europe, Canada, Alaska for over three years since 1987. That's cool. Samoa had come to Australia, October 1st, 1990s, stayed in Sydney before then hitchhiking with the friend to Melbourne and traveling to Queensland. The women returned to Sydney, then traveled again to Melbourne, then back to Sydney, before leaving for New Zealand, November 20th. They returned to Sydney again, January 19th, with Simone leaving the next morning and tending on catching a bus to Liverpool and hitchhiking to Melbourne once

more. But then she was never seen again. Her mother obviously grew alarmed when she did not meet her at the airport. Simone's friend, Jeanette Mueller, was worried too. She had tried to persuade her not to hitchhike. She thought it was too dangerous. She'd even offered her money to take the bus. But Simone was determined to hitchhike. Year later, 21-year-old Gabor Nuzbauer and 20-year-old Anya Habsheet were reported missing to the Australian Federal Police by the embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany on January 30th, 1992. Gabor and Anya were due to return to Germany, January 24th. On his father went to the airport to meet them.

When they failed to arrive, he checked with the airline, found out they had never gotten on the plane. He then called Gabor's parents, and over the next few days, they tried to contact their kids before reporting them missing. Gabor and Anya were a couple who were world travelers. They were in Indonesia before they came to Australia in November of 1991. They went to the north coast, made their way to Sydney. On December 26th, they were hitchhiking from Sydney to Darwin when they had pre-booked a flight to Indonesia on January 21st, or excuse me, on January 1st, 1992.

They were going to fly from Darwin to Indonesia, but then they were never seen alive again. Four months later, May 29th, 1992, 22-year-old Joanne Walters, a British backpacker, reported missing to the North Sydney police by her former employer, who she nannied for. The report was prompted by Joanne's concerned parents back in the UK. Soon after, Joanne's traveling companion, 21-year-old Caroline Clark, also reported missing to the New South Wales Missing Persons Unit via Interpol by her parents. Joanne had not contacted her parents for weeks, and she had missed Father's Day, which was highly unlike her. Her dad got in touch with her friends in Australia who had not heard from her either, and they were able to track down Caroline's parents who had not heard from her since April. Both sets of parents agreed to go to the police. Joanne had worked in Greece, Italy, and Sardinia in 1990.

In June of 1991, she came to Australia with the friends she met during her travels. She spent a short time in Sydney before heading up to Queensland, heading up to the Queensland coast, working part-time as they went before, working part-time as they went up along the coast, before returning to Sydney. And there's so many adventurous young people leading such cool lives before they ran into Ivan. In August of 1991, Caroline left England to travel around Europe. with her friend. Her friend eventually went home and Caroline traveled alone to Australia, arriving in Sydney on September 19th. She met Joanne at the backpacker's hostel in the Kings Cross

neighborhood of Sydney in December. Caroline spent Christmas with a friend in Adelaide and returned to Kings Cross in early January of 1992. In February of 1992, Caroline, Joanne and two roommates traveled to Mildura, Victoria, to pick some grapes. They then took a train to Liverpool and split into pairs to hitchhike the rest of the way. In a letter to a close friend, friend Caroline wrote, I'm no longer in Sydney but actually in Victoria in a place called Mildura for six to eight weeks. I'm doing great picking. The money's not bad, about 40 pounds a day. I'm not paying rent, so it's even better. We all get along really well and have a good laugh in the evening. The women returned to Kings Cross in late March. A few days later, Caroline and Joanne left

for Tasmania, hitchhiking to Melbourne and taking a ferry. Two weeks later, Caroline and Joanne decided to return to Sydney. The women returned to Kings Cross, but within weeks they'd planned on heading back to Mildura. They left their hostel April 18th, 1992. They made it to the highway, but not to their final destination. The women were last seen alive in Boli Pass asking for directions to the Hume Highway. Man, they were living their best lives, doing so much cool shit. And then Ivan that fucking bum showed up, that loser and destroyed them for what? Sick amusement for an afternoon, maybe two. Some people should truly never make it to adulthood, right? All adult Ivan ever did was bring misery to the world. That's all he seems like he ever did is his whole life.

By late July, 1992, the New South Wales Police Missing Persons Unit identified six foreign backpackers who had also disappeared under similar circumstances. Caroline Clark, Joanne Walters, Gabor Nuzbauer, Anya Hobsheet, Simone Schmeadle, and a young woman who had disappeared from the Gold Coast several years prior. Iron will never be charged regarding the Gold Coast woman, but will be charged with the others. Sergeant Peter Marconne told the Sydney Morning Herald we've got nothing to this point to suggest they've been killed but we've had a massive media campaign

and we haven't been able to come up with anything positive the two missing Australians James Gibson and Deborah Everest were not linked to the others at this time, not yet meanwhile in mid-1992

Ivan began building a house in Eagle Vale the suburb of Sydney with his sister Shirley oh good for him good for the two of them they were probably fucking each other I have no evidence to back that up

it just feels on brand for Ivan and this family Like I'd be shocked if that deviant Didn't at least try to fuck a sister or two Shirley was divorced And her children did not live with her Because she was a Malat She worked at an accounting firm

Her co-worker Shilinder Hughes Was also divorced Shirley thought she and Ivan would be a good match Introduce him and they started to date I still think Ivan was probably fucking Shirley A few months later some dead bodies Will be found in the Balangelo State Forest Where Ivan enjoyed hunting and shooting with his brothers

On September 19th, 1992, Ken Seeley went to Belangelo State Forest for a weekly run with his Orienteering Club. Orienteering, I don't really talk about it much, a sport of outdoor navigation, where the participants use a highly detailed map and compass to find a series of checkpoints called controls as quickly as possible. So, you know, kind of an interesting like scavenger hunt slash race. After a briefing, Seeley and his partner, Keith Caldwell, started their run. By early afternoon, they were deep in the forest near. their landmark called Executioner's Drop, named for its sheer drop into a deep gorge. They were recording control points along the route,

and their next control point was a large boulder. When they got to it, they noticed a foul odor and assumed it was a dead animal, but it was not. Keith, obviously, didn't tell Ken, but Keith had farted. And it was a bad one. It was silent but deadly. Let's back up. The previous day, September 18, 19, 1992,

Keith had eaten a preposterous amount of canned clam choward. He hadn't intended to, but preparing for running this course the next day he'd lost track of time, skipped lunch, his blood sugar plummeted. He got very, very hungry. That, you know, crazy kind of hungry when you lose any sense of how much you can actually eat in one sitting or of what you should eat, and you just overdo it, and he went into his cupboard. He saw these two cans of clam chowder, he threw them into a sauce pot without checking the expiration dates.

Turns out they'd expired over four years earlier. he thought the chowder smelled funny but then he also thought yeah it's a clam chowder you know it always smells a little bit funny he thought it tasted off but he didn't think it was

anything that some extra salt couldn't cure so he put a lot of salt on it and he ate all of it but all of two cans and within an hour he was shitting literal blood he should have went to the hospital

at that point but he's worried about missing his you know orienteering fucking race thing the next day so instead he drank an entire bottle of Nyquil and drank another entire

bottle of peptobismal. Right? We've all been there. And he did feel better and he did fall asleep, but this kind of rare chemical reaction occurred now. And the next day, right when he thought he was all better, he felt a sharp stabbing pain in his side, right, near his hip. And he had to stop, but he had to lean up against a tree. And then he let out this crazy fart. It was silent, but it was also vicious. And he estimated later, it probably went on for somewhere between 45 and 60 straight seconds. He said that during this time, this roughly one minute, He felt like he died, that he was then reborn, that he then died again, that he was reborn again, he lost consciousness, said he traveled through time and space, saw God, saw the devil, made his peace with the finality of his own fragile existence, floated around on the astral plane, reentering his body in time to finish farting. And again, thankfully, he's a quiet one. He didn't think his buddy Ken would notice. But then Ken smelt what Keith had dealt.

and it was so bad he permanently would lose sight in one eye, permanently lost vision, one of his eyes, lost 30% of his lung capacity, and ever since, sometimes he will faint if he breathes in too deeply. Sorry, I need to break up the true crime names and dates and just shake things up a little bit. Obviously, that never happened.

You know what, I don't know if it never happened. I'm not sure that none of that happened. We could pretend that it did. I mean, why would they include that if it did happen? They probably just wouldn't talk about it, would they? Because they're embarrassed, and it's fucking weird. so let's say that it did happen and Keith made Ken promise to tell no one

anyway what definitely happened was that Keith and Ken smelled a dead body and I will share the details of what they stumbled across right after today's second of two mid-show sponsor breaks thank you for listening to those sponsors

hope you heard some deals you liked now let's discuss not farts but what Keith and Ken stumbled across in the woods at the end of the summer of 1992 beneath a small overhang they found a mound of debris they saw a bone a patch of hair part of a black t-shirt

they walked around the other side saw the heel of a shoe protruding from the brush took the pair a half hour to run back to their friends when they told them what they had stumbled across everyone agreed they should call the police Ken Sealy would be the one to speak to

emergency services the operator asked if it was an emergency and when he said not really they just hung up immediately that's great no follow-up questions click is this an emergency I don't know click Ken finally got through

after several more phone calls, and now he told an officer that he had found a body in the forest. The police arrived that evening as the light was beginning to fade followed by detectives in a crime scene unit from the nearest town.

Calls were made to the office of detectives in Sydney Kings Cross and the missing persons bureau who were looking into the disappearances of the backpackers. The next day, police constables, Roger Goe, and Suzanne Roberts found a second body,

100 feet each to the first, partially covered by a log. Early media report suggested the bodies with the remains of missing missing British backpackers Caroline Clark and Joanne Walters

who had now been missing for five months. Other possibilities included missing German backpackers, Gabor Nuzbauer and Anya Habsheet and Simone Schmidel

or the missing Australians, Deborah Everest and James Gibson. On the afternoon of September 20th, police confirmed the bodies were indeed Caroline Clark and Joanne Walters from Britain. Joanne's parents,

Ray and Jill, had been in Australia for a month already looking for her. Man, what a gut punch. The police found them in Sydney, delivered the devastating news. Inspector Bob Godin and Sergeant Steve McClennon were now

assigned to the case. McClennan thought that since the bodies were found in an isolated area it was possible, if not probable, that the killer lived nearby. You know, somebody familiar with the area. For the next five days, the police conducted a thorough search of the forest. They didn't find any more bodies, nor the camping gear, and personal

items of the victims. Six cigarette butts of the same brand were found though, near Caroline's body, indicating that somebody had spent and extended amount of time at the crime scene. A 22 caliber cartridge case also found. Authorities found nine more cartridge cases, 12 feet from Caroline's body, three bullets. Also a fireplace, a crude fireplace, have been built from some house bricks, about

120 feet from the crime scene. So this seemed to be a place where, you know, somebody was coming to hang out for extended amount of, extended periods of time and probably often. Joanne had been stabbed 21 times in the back, an additional 14 times in the chest. her spine had been severed by one vicious blow paralyzing her four other knife wounds also injured her spine clearly her attacker was trying to paralyze her two of her ribs have been severed and her arms and hands showed no defensive wounds indicating she had possibly been tied up during her assault or uh yeah yeah probably like initially during the assault and maybe the maybe some of the stab wounds occurred after she was paralyzed uh joanne was still wearing jewelry on both hands as well as her jeans and black shoes the zipper of her jeans was undone but the top of the button was fastened, a detail investigators took note of. Caroline, meanwhile, had been shot in the head multiple

times, like fucking ten times. She had ten bullet holes in her skull with only four exit wounds. Four complete 22 caliber bullets were recovered from inside of her skull. Fuck, front of her face and jaw had been shattered from the wounds. One detective believed that Caroline's head

had been used for, quote, target practice. She also had a single stab wound to the upper back that was identical to Joanne's. The same blade had been used on both women. There were dark hairs on Joanne's shirt and hands. Remains of a cloth used as a gag were removed from her mouth and cloth samples were taken from another, excuse me, from taken from around her throat suggesting strangulation. There were no signs of rape, but it was difficult to be completely certain due to decomposition. So they very likely could have been sexually

assaulted. Although investigators now had an abundance of physical evidence, they were having a hard time finding any leads. The police asked forensic psychiatrist Dr. Rod Milton to consult and create a profile, Milton agreed the killer was very familiar with the area. He also thought it was a planned murder, not a crime of opportunity. The way an article of clothing was wrapped around Caroline's head was meant he said to depersonalize her. Her clothing was intact except for her front-fasting bra that was unclipped, leading Dr. Milton to think that her murder was probably not sexually motivated. He felt a single stab wound inflicted after death was a final example of control, or perhaps the work of an accomplice. Joanne's body in burial site

indicated rage and frenzy The disarray of her clothing indicated a sexual attack Her shirt and bra were pushed up But the class was still fastened As mentioned the top button was You know on her pants was fastened But the zipper was down

Her underwear not on her body Or found at the crime scene Because her shoes were still on and laced up The jeans were likely not taking Completely off The underwear might have been cut off and taken As a trophy he surmised Milton believed quote

Pleasure was the motive for what happened to her if there were two killers he suspected one was older dominant other younger more submissive they were probably involved in other sexual crimes together or separately according to his profile the main offender would live in a semi rural area be employed in a semi-skilled job outdoors be involved in an unstable or unsatisfactory relationship have a history of homosexuality or bisexual activity uh not sure where that comes from have a history of aggression against authority and be in his mid-thirties milton did not indicate the murders were committed by by a serial killer. Towards the end of 1992, after not making any progress locating the suspect, the investigation team is reduced in size

to allow resources to be used for other crimes. The press speculated that the murders, you know, to investigate other crimes, obviously. The press speculated that the murders were committed

by a serial killer, but the police still denied it. Months passed now with no movement in the case, but then more bodies were found. On October 5th, 1993, local man Bruce Pryor was in Belangelo State Forest,

collecting firewood. He'd read and seen stories about the murders, often found himself searching the forest or on his visits because he couldn't get the case off of his mind. On that fateful morning, he set out with no intention of even going to the forest, but he did anyway. Went down a trail he'd been on before, but instead of going to the end, he went down a side route called the Maurice Fire Trail. Within that trail was a T intersection. The right side led to the Clearly's exit fire trail. Prior had never been down the left side, which opened up to a bare rocky area at one side of the clearing he noticed a small fire pit ringed by some rocks upon further examination of the clearing he found a large bone that

appeared to be human about the length of his thigh prior walked further ahead looking for the rest of what he hoped was just an animal skeleton but instead found a human skull in an overgrown area part of the lower jaw was broken away and there was an injury possibly a bullet wound to the forehead prior was afraid that nobody would believe his story so he brought the skull with him when he left. As he neared the entrance of the forest, he encountered John Springett, a local builder who was doing maintenance on a small hut used by an orienteering club, and they used Springett's phone, his mobile phone to call to police. Then prior led detectives Peter Lovell and Stephen Murphy to the clearing where he'd found the bones, and searchers quickly realized

there were actually two sets of human remains. This discovery was soon a major story, with media outlets across Australia speculating about which of the missing backpackers the school might belong to. Also, someone found a floppy black felt hat in the remains. Missing persons reports indicated it could belong to James Gibson, the Australian hiker missing since 1989. The police had previously discounted James Gibson as a possible victim found in Belangelo State Forest because his backpack and camera were found lying on the side of a busy highway 78 miles north of the Belangelo State Forest in another forest called Galston Gorge, a forced area called Galston Gorge. The skeletal remains in the clearing were scattered most likely due to animal

activity. One of the skeletons was assumed to be female because it was smaller. The teeth of one set of remains were compared to dental records and identified as James Gibson. The police were almost certain the other set of remains was Deborah Everest, although this was not confirmed immediately. Beside the first body was a silver chain,

a bracelet, and a silver crucifix. The second skeleton also still had a pair of white sneakers on the feet. And that detail is so disturbing to me, the sneakers detail. Why? I think maybe it's because when you just see a skeleton, to me at least it almost doesn't feel human anymore right there's no face no skin no eyes

reminds me more like a Halloween prop but with the shoes on the shoes are such a reminder to me at least that not long ago those bones were a living breathing person one detail that stood out to investigators was the fact that the top button of james jeans were fastened but the zipper again open just like with joanne walters james had also been stabbed in the spine like joan walters a wound that had paralyzed him. And that is so fucking disturbing, right? How long were these poor people laying there paralyzed? Well, Ivan tortured them.

Or while he tortured, you know, their friend, you know, minutes, hours? What an especially cruel and just, oh my God, agonizing way to die. James was also stabbed twice in the breastbone, twice more in the upper back. He had seven major wounds on his remains. It was very possibly had more stab wounds that just, you know, didn't damage his skeleton. And they didn't see because of decomposition. The size of the stab wounds, similar to the size of the wounds in the Walters and Clark case, and James and Deborah were found less than a kilometer, about a half mile, excuse me, from the first crime scene.

Deborah had fractures at the back of her skull and four slash marks on her forehead. She was stabbed in the lower back close to her spine. 30 feet from her body, investigators found a black bra with a stab wound through one of the cups. A pair of gray tights also found tied with a loop at either end, possibly used to strangle her. It was very likely, almost certain that this pair of victims, the previous victims had been tortured for quite some time. All the similarities led the police to believe the Australian backpackers were targeted by the same killer or same pair of killers. October 7th now, 1993. The police launched an intensive search of the area. Next day, the police

announced that the four victims were probably murdered by the same person or persons, and all were stabbed. Superintendent Clive Small now placed in charge the investigation. Small's first job was to combine individual detectives into one unit. and the investigation was named task force air the uh you know serial killer kind of unit formerly established october 14th 1993 no idea why they picked the name air seems like task force backpacker task force forest bodies task force hitchhiker task force fuck this psycho you know something would have been better a small second charge was detective inspector rod lynch who job it was to

coordinate with the sydney headquarters while small would oversee the on-site investigation Lynch also set up a tip line. The bulletin shell casings taken from the latest crime scene had come from a Ruger repeating rifle, which was actually not very helpful. Over 50,000 of those rifles had been imported into Australia between 1964 and 1982. Authorities obtained a list of gun shops that had purchased those rifles. Gun shops were required to keep a record of every gun sold, but private sales had no such requirements, which is fucking absurd. So if you bought the rifle from somebody who had bought the rifle from another dude

who had bought the rifle from another dude who had bought it from a gun shop, you know, it's going to be very hard for the police to locate you. Authorities had a list of all weapons owned by residents in the area in hopes of finding the match. However, their plan was leaked to the press

which infuriated investigators because they feared the killer was just now going to dump the weapon. Members of the local gun club agreed to have their weapons examined, but nothing came of that as far as finding the murder weapon. However, on October 18th, 1993, one of those members reported that his buddy, Alex Malat,

had seen something suspicious in the forest the year prior. Alex, of course, one of Ivan's brothers, one of his older brothers. The police got into contact with Alex and this piece of shit said that around 4 p.m. back on April 26, 1992, so a year and a half earlier, 18 months earlier, he and his friend Bill Ayers left the Belangelo Pistol Club in Alex's vehicle. Iers was driving. Alex was sitting in the passenger seat as they were traveling down, Angelo Road towards Hume Highway.

They say, he said they saw two vehicles approaching, a Ford sedan and a four-wheel drive heading down one of the trails. He said that a man was driving the first vehicle, that two men were in the back seat with a woman between them who had a cloth tied around her head like a gag. Inside the second vehicle were two men, one driving, and the other sitting in the back next to a bound female, and apparently he didn't think this was, you know, grounds to call the police. Dude saw two bound and gagged women, or at least, you know, one bound, one gagged, probably

both bound, being driven into the woods out of the fucking, you know, middle of nowhere, and he did not call the police. They should have arrested him right then and there for admitting that. I mean, seriously, you witness that and you don't contact the police. Fuck you. Right? You don't do anything for a year and a half. You should be charged with something.

This tells me that this dude is either a complete fucking moron, someone far too dumb to ever be allowed to own a gun, or a complete piece of shit who doesn't care about women being taken into the woods to be tortured or killed. Or, fucking lying to the point the police, you know, to point the police away from his brother Ivan, and maybe away from himself as well. Alex was able to provide detailed descriptions of all these men he had seen a year and a half earlier and even said he took down the license plate number, the second vehicle, wrote it on a scrap of cardboard, but you know what, gosh dang it, I lost that cardboard. Why the fuck did you bother riding it down if you weren't going to call the police a day that happened. Because he's lying.

He's for a sure line. The police typed out his official statement. He signed it. It was added to the rapidly growing case file. And for some reason, he has not immediately made their prime suspect. By the end of October, searchers felt confident they were not going to find any more bodies in the woods. But they were soon proven wrong. November 1st, 1993, search leader sergeant, Jeff Triker led his team into a small clearing in the same general area, and he smote. melt something. Something stinky. Let's back up. The day before, one of his fellow officers, Ned Basil,

skipped lunch, got very hungry, blood sugar plummeted, grabbed two cans of expired clam chatter, and I'll stop. Now, he found a pair of pink women's jeans. And a blue and blue and yellow rope. Next to that was an empty 22-caliber bullet packets. At first, they didn't think much of it because they'd found many unusual items during the search.

Deeper in the clearing, they found empty drink cans with bullet holes in them, length of wire, bent into loops, cartridge cage, cases, empty bottles, and at the edge of the clearing, a primitive fireplace. How much time did the killer spend with his victims? Was he just making a fire, fucking cooking some chili up for himself? You know, spending days while you just torture these poor people? Just after lunch, another searcher found a human bone on the edge of a rocky outcrop.

A skull was found 10 feet away. Underneath a pile of sticks and brushed was a bone sticking out of a hiking boot. This set of remains was believed to be female. There was a purple headband found on the skull. the clothing indicated the skeleton could be missing German backpacker Simone Schmidle and despite other items listed in the missing person's report such as her backpack and camping supplies not being found at the scene it was eventually confirmed that the remains were Simone's

Simone was found partially dressed her shirt and under clothing pushed up around her neck her green shorts had the ties undone her jewelry and two coins were found next to her remains the pink jeans found nearby were not Simone's but they did match the description of missing German backpacker Anya Hopsheet's jeans Simone had no skull injury but she had stab wounds on her chest and back which just like with previous

victims severed her spinal column and paralyzed her. Again, such a disturbing detail, just lay in there alone in the woods, unable to move while this fucking maniac, maybe a couple maniacs has their way with her. Able to hear every horrible thing they're saying, able to see everything they're doing,

man. Check out how upsetting thinking about what I've may have done to his victims was to his brother Boris when asked decades later in 2019 on 60 Minutes Australia about why he thought his brother toyed with these poor people.

When you learned about how those backpackers were killed and toyed with, played with brutally murdered. Oh, so don't even talk to me about it. Don't want to go there. I'll get emotional. I just

Hmm Why will you get emotional He just completely breaks down Has to get up and walk away Okay We'll just take a moment It's okay That's all right

Just take a moment Eventually he's able to come back That's all right What's going on? Nothing What could I say? You've I'm just pulling on my heartstrings there a bit.

Well, I'm a bit surprised by your reaction. I don't want to go, isn't it? It's that part of it, okay? Yeah, because that upsets me. Yeah, he just, he takes quite a while to, you know, to get his emotions back under control. I mean, Boris's response, just such a good example of how these killers, they don't just victimize their direct victims. And they also don't just victimize their victims' families. They victimize their own families as well.

the shame, you know, poor Boris, you know, also talks in this interview about how he's ashamed to be a lot. He's ashamed of his own name, ashamed of his family, just, you know, so torn up thinking about what happened to all these victims, you know, that were just done for nothing. He just thinks his brother did it, maybe to get some money, and that he also just hated to see beautiful things. He says that at one point, that he thinks his Ivan just hated to see, he was just so fucking ugly in every possible, well, you know, outside of surface level, he was just an ugly soul. And he just was, you know, bothered seeing people who were not as ugly and dark as him, I guess. Back to poor Simone.

Her parents heard about the discovery on the radio, contacted the German police for confirmation. Even though Australian authorities advised German officials of the discovery, it took over two weeks for them to conclusively confirm the identity of the remains. On November 4th, 1993 now, two more bodies are found in Balangelo State Forest, identified as the missing Gaborian. Nuzbauer and Anya Hopsheet. They were found 80 meters apart, one kilometer or just over a half mile to the east of where Simone Schmiddle had been found. On his clothing bunched up around her shoulders, but none of her lower body clothing found on or near her. Remember, her jeans were found closer to the Simone Schmiddle crime scene, so probably sexually assaulted, almost certainly I would think. Oni had also been completely decapitated. Her head, her first two vertebrae missing,

no other wounds found on her skeleton. Her head had been severed by something like a machete or a sword, the angle of the cut indicated she was probably in a kneeling position with her head down, like some kind of old-school medieval execution. What the fuck was Ivan saying to her while she knelt down? Was he given her false hope that he might let her go? Did he make her choose to either be decapitated in that way or tortured in some worse way? Gabor's remains partially covered by a large rock, pieces of his decayed clothing found on his skeleton. Like other victims, his jeans had the zipper open and the top button fastened so strange authorities assumed he had been sexually assaulted there were two gags in gabor's

mouth his fractured hyoid bone indicated strangulation right these two had been savagely tortured his jaw was fractured in several places he had six bullet wounds in his school but only one exit wound four bullets found inside his school a fifth amongst his upper body bones no spent bullets found in the woods meaning gobor was not killed at the grave site five uh fired bullets and entry cartridge packets later found near the crime scene. Over 90 fired cases were found scattered around the area, identified as the same ones from the Joanne Walters' site. It seemed to investigators that both Anya and Gabor had been sexually assaulted and that the killer had spent an extended amount of time committing the murders. Task force leader Clive Small addressed

the media and acknowledged they were indeed hunting a serial killer. It was difficult to narrow down the suspect list because the killer would use different methods to murder the victims and sexually assaulted both men and women. The task force Tip Line received thousands of calls from concerned citizens, which overwhelmed investigators. Two of those calls, however, did seem to contain promising leads. One woman claimed her boyfriend worked with the man she thought they should look into. His name was Richard Bird. Dick Bird

from Las Vegas, Nevada. Huh. No, no, his name was Ivan Malat. He owned property near Balangelo State Forest, drove a four-wheel drive, owned a lot of guns, was definitely a fucking creep. Other caller was Joanne Berry, who described picking up a distressed hitchhiker in January of 1990, 24-year-old British hitchhiker Paul Unions, whom we met earlier. Unfortunately, these calls initially got buried under the sheer volume of other tips. On November 13, 1993, Survivor Paul Onions, called the hotline number himself, described

that 1990 incident now. He was asked why he didn't report it back when it happened, and he said, I did report it. Somebody fucked up. He'd expected the officer on the phone to ask him, where? win the name of the officer he reported to but instead the officer just thanked him for this call and then hung up this Australian police officer man back in the 90s 80s they just fucking love to hang up on people weeks past with no follow-up Paul moved on with his life by December of 1993 the police now had amassed a list of 2,000 people uh you know people of interest persons of

interest based on calls from the tip line their computer system was overloaded by data right old old computer system. Their task force information management system had multiple databases, but it could not cross-reference more than a single inquiry because the system could not handle the volume of data. Computers, right, much fucking weaker, much less processing power back then. The task force decided to introduce a new program, which would take weeks of data entry and compile and compilation that had to be done by hand. During this data entry process, the team found a report by a person with an unusual surname, Paul onions. They added it to their lead file for further attention. Several weeks later, they found Joanne Barry's report that the onions,

about the onions incident, excuse me, which was also added to the lead file, and slowly they're making some progress. By early 1994, there were 37 detectives working on the investigation full-time now, with the main folks that tracking down the suspected firearm and ammo used in the murders. Senior constable, Paul Gordon, and his partner were given the job of following up on a file with three leads, one of which was the Ivan Malat tip from 1993. Gordon spoke to Lynn Butler and her boyfriend Paul Douglas who reported some suspicious statements concerning the missing backpackers.

Lynn Butler reported that on October 11th, 1999, Paul Douglas stopped at the Albion Hotel in Parramatta, suburb of Sydney, for a drink with Lynn's husband, Des, whom he worked with. The men were talking about the bodies found in the forest in the speculation there could be other victims.

They were concerned about comments made to them by their co-worker Paul Thomas Miller. Around Easter, 1992, before the bodies were found, but while there was media coverage about the missing backpackers, Miller had apparently told Des Butler, quote, I know who killed the Germans. He said that with no prompting, and then immediately change a subject.

Five months later in September, Paul Douglas and his coworker Nick Collins were discussing discovery of Caroline Clark and Joanne Walters, and Paul Miller joined in and said, there's more bodies out there, they haven't found them all yet. At the same day, during a different conversation about the bodies, Miller said, quote, you could pick up anybody on that road, and you'd never find them again. you'd never find out who did it either a few weeks later miller told douglas there are two germans out there they haven't found yet so obvious question who the fuck is this paul miller character well both paul douglas and des butler knew that paul miller was an alias not the man's real name the man's real name was richard james malat fucking dick ivan's older brother was a dick not surprised uh miller had talked about coming from a large family and having a lot of lot of brothers, some of whom were violence because he had a habit of coming to work drunk or high, Douglas and Butler didn't take him seriously until he started to repeat his creepy

claims. The third lead came from a woman whose boyfriend worked with Ivan Malat. She did not give her name, so investigators decided to go to where she worked, ready mix, and ask her about Ivan directly. Or just based on the number she called from, they found this place. They found out that both Richard and Ivan Malat worked at this ready mix plant or had worked at one point there. When analyzing their timesheets, police learned that Richard was working on the day's authorities believed the victims were murdered, but Ivan was not. Ivan now quickly becoming the primary suspect, but police still needed more evidence before they made an arrest. A background check revealed that Ivan had spent several years in prison and that he had been arrested and charged with rape.

Detectives requested phone taps of Ivan's home, but were denied because Australian law only permits that when all other methods of acquiring evidence have been exhausted. Four detectives were assigned to the Malat Leeds, and the so-called dog squad was a arranged to follow Ivan around and watch his house an Eagle Vale now. Surveillance officially began February 26. It'll take several months to gather all the needed evidence against him. Meanwhile, Superintendent Clive Small assembled a team of experts to look into the possible motive and state of mind of the killer. He brought in Dr. Rod Milton, who had been reviewing the case since the beginning, Dr. Richard Boscham, another Dick, good, got Dick and Rod working.

The Dean of Anthropology at Sydney University was Dick, and Bob Young, Associate. and a computer analyst. This is great. We got a dick. We got a rod. We got a Bobbert on the case. It's rock solid. A small believe the killer lived in the region around Belangelo and planned to

organize a door-to-door survey of the area to search for the weapon, but there were not enough resources for that. The team felt that the killer had already been mentioned in the tip line data and they just needed to find him. They reviewed Alex Malatz's statement and small remarked that the depth of detail suggested the person who made it had a photographic memory. Psychologists suggested that might have been part of the events he recalled, possibly with his brother, or suggested that he might have been part of the events he recalled, possibly with his brother. Milton suggested the killer might not live in the immediate vicinity of the forest, but might visit regularly, probably near the Hume Highway, because all the victims were seen near Liverpool.

The expert panel was unaware. The police were already interested in the Malat family, who fit this description, but the Malats remained in the back of Small's mind. The search for evidence against Ivan Malat continued through March of 1994. The task force had records of all property and vehicles owned by the Malat family. Three of the brothers owned a small property 25 miles from Balangelo State Forest. Ivan owned a silver four-wheel drive Nissan, which he sold about two months after Caroline Clark and Joanne Walters were found. The new owner showed the police a bullet he found under the driver's seat, a 22 caliber that was consistent with the empty bullet boxes found in the woods. The Malat team attempted to use the upgraded database to find additional information now,

but their keyword search, not pulling up any matches. They had to sort through reports by hand, which took weeks. Meanwhile, a woman named Mary called a hotline to report that back in 1977. She and her friend Teresa, both 18 at the time, were hitchhiking from Liverpool, back home to Canberra. Once they were south of the town of Mitagong, they accepted a ride from a man in his early 30s with black hair. He stopped to buy gas, turned right off at the Hume Highway. way, said it was a shortcut to Canberra, but a few minutes later turned onto a dirt track, stopped the car saying he needed to use the toilet. Then he opened the trunk and did something

very creepy. He grabbed Mary by the arm and said, okay, girls, who's first? Mary, good on her, fucking punched him in the face with a free hand. Hit him hard enough to knock him back, Hail Nimrod, and now the girls ran off into the bush. We were very fast. They outpaced him as he began to chase him, and then they hid for several hours until he finally gave up looking for them and left. They then walked back to the road. They then walked back to the road. until they found a farmhouse. The occupants offered to drive them to the bull rule police station,

but they did not report the incident. Mary's friend Teresa independently contacted the hotline the same day. She did, though, and her story matched. That same month, the two women were shown a lineup that included both Ivan and Richard Millat. Mary did not pick anybody out of the lineup.

Teresa either thought that Ivan or Richard was the driver, but not fully confident in her identification. Damn it. But then, April 13th, 19th, a detective rediscovered the record of Paul Onion's call to the hotline five months prior. Task Force leader Clive Small was furious that such an important piece of evidence had been overlooked. He called the Beaurel Police Station for their original report, but that was now missing.

So now he's more pissed and rightfully so. However, the constable who spoke to Onions had taken a full report in her notebook, which had more details. Knowing that Richard and Ivan Millat were similar in physical description, the police checked their work records and confirmed, Richard was working January 25th, 1990. Ivan was not. Additionally, records show that Ivan was working in the Galston Gorge area where James Gibson's backpack was found. Several colleagues were interviewed, spoke about Ivan's interest in guns. His friend Tony confirmed that Ivan owned, quote, an arsenal of guns. Once when he and Ivan drove past the Belangelo State Forest on their way to find a job,

Ivan supposedly remarked, you wouldn't believe what's in there. When Tony asked for details, Ivan smiled but said nothing further. By the end of April, Paul Onions received a phone call from Detective Stuart Wilkins who told him he was an important witness and asked him if he would fly to Sydney and he did. I've watched Paul in a number of interviews.

He seems like he was a very good dude. A week later, Paul was driven through Liverpool, pointed out the shop where he met Bill, but of course, Ivan. Police took Paul down the road, pointed out the spot where Bill pointed a gun at him less than a mile from the entrance to the Balangelo State Forest.

On May 5th, 1994, Paul was shown a video lineup of suspects. He immediately identified Ivan Malat as his attacker was very confident in his selection. Like, yes, that is the guy, 100%. Superintendent Clive Small believed this was sufficient evidence now to arrest Ivan, at least for the armed robbery against Paul Unions. The task force applied for an arrest warrant, search warrants of Ivan's home in Eaglevale, as well as warrants for his mother's house and properties owned by brothers Richard, Walter, Alex, and Bill. At long last, now 49-year-old Ivan Malat is arrested. May 26, 1994. His arrest is kind of funny. The task force decided to raid Ivan's home at 6.30 that

morning. Over 300 officers would be involved in multiple raids throughout this day. Officers planned to contact Ivan by phone after surrounding his house. A detective called Ivan's number asked him to confirm if he was indeed Ivan Malat and Ivan said one word, no. He's like an annoying kid. No, not. Come on, mate. We know you're Ivan. Nah. We can see you, Ivan. We're right outside. No, you're not. He was advised that he was surrounded. The police needed to,

intended to gain entry, execute a search warrant. He was told that he and his girlfriend, Shilinder Hughes, who was also in the house, should come out and surrender rather than risk harm. Several minutes of no activity passed,

the police were reluctant to storm the house because they knew Ivan owned a shitload of guns, didn't want an unnecessarily endangered girlfriend. A detective then calls Ivan again. When asked why he hasn't come out, he said he thought it was a joke. Come on out, Ivan.

Now for this. Why, are you serious or joking? What, there's over 100 officers surrounding your house right now. Of course we're serious. Nah, now I, you're joking. No, we're not, Ivan. We don't play jokes. Look out your window.

Oh, shit. Oh, you guys are fucking serious, aren't you? Several minutes later, Ivan and his girlfriend calmly while outside and I'm taking into custody. That's just a weird thing to say, like, I thought you were joking. Like, if you just look at the fucking window, there's probably a hundred cops out there I thought you guys were fucking about Ivan was given his rights told he was going

to be questioned in relation to seven bodies found in the belangelo state forests Ivan remaining calm said I don't know what you're talking about meanwhile a specialist team began to search Ivan's house first thing authorities found was a postcard that started with the words

hi Bill Ivan said it was from a friend of his New Zealand but also claimed he didn't go by the name Bill this guy's an idiot this postcard saying to you yeah it's in your bill now i'm ivan sometimes people call you bill don't they now they don't but this person called you bill yeah so sometimes people do call you bill no they don't

uh but it was found in one of the bedrooms but ivan claimed he didn't own any firearms that would be illegal considering his record said it was just left behind from a time when he went to shoot with one of his brothers two sleeping bags were found in the closet later identified as belonging to victim simone schmidle debor everest Ivan's workback contained a 12-inch buoy-style knife Also had an instruction manual from a Ruger 22-cali rifle Which he refused to comment on A photo album contained a picture of a Harley motorcycle

And Ivan sitting on it wearing a gun holster The gun inside the holster Looked like a Colt 45 handgun The type described by Paul onions Box of 45 caliber ammo Also found in Ivan's bedroom A framed photo inside of the house Showed shillinder Hughes

wearing a striped Benitin top identical to the one owned by Carolyn and Caroline Clark Inside the garage With a sleeping bag cover That contained a rolled tent The tent was bound With a purple headband

identical to the one Simone Schneidle was wearing Inside the bag was a homemade silencer Ivan claimed he had never seen The bag before This is your garage, right Ivan? Yeah? You've been inside it before then?

Yeah, of course I have And it's your stuff in here? Yeah, of course it is. So this giant tent Sitting out here in the open This is yours then no no i never seen that so fucking annoying inside the roof cavity was a plastic bag to contain gun parts from a ruger 22 the police also found a rotary magazine from the same weapon hidden in a different part of the wall or in a part of the wall ivan was evasive during his interview at the police station which only lasted about an hour he was officially charged with robbery and attempted murder still continuing the search at ivan's house the police found electrical tape cable ties yellow and blue ropes another part of the same ruger rifle uh More camping and cooking equipment belonging to Simone Schmeadle was found in the pantry.

Police found a camera that belonged to Caroline Clark and a water canteen that had been scratched up in an attempt to erase the name Simi, which was Simone's nickname. The police also found a loaded browning pistol wedged under the washing machine. At the other search locations, police found rifles, shotguns, knives, cross posts, fucking tons of ammo. Almost all of the camping gear that belonged to the victims. inside a lock cupboard in Margaret Millat's home, right, Ivan's mom, the police found a long curved cavalry sword. This family's insane. Gerald Dutton, a ballistics expert, soon determined that the fired cases

and several bullets from the various crime scenes conclusively matched the 22 Ruger found in Ivan's home. So he's cooked. May 31st, 1994, Ivan is charged with the murders of the seven backpackers found in the forest. He hired the same lawyer who represented him in his 1971 rape trial, John Martson, but then fired John when John recommended he plead guilty. December 12th, 1994, Ivan's committed to trial on eight charges after a 28-day hearing. Then he had to wait well over a year for the trial to begin.

March 25th, 1996, jury selection is finalized for Ivan's murder trial, which began the following day. The prosecution's case took 12 weeks to present Paul Onions is the first witness, and he positively identified Ivan in court. The parents of each victim also testified at the trial. trial. Poor bastards. Pathologists looked at the sword found in Margaret Millatz home, testified it was very likely the type of weapon used to decapitate Anya Hobsheet. Ivan's girlfriend, Shalinder Hughes, testified that she took the Benetton top, believed to belong to Caroline Clark from a bundle of clothing in the house and put it on just because it was a cool day. This was before Ivan had moved to Eagle Vale, and she assumed

it belonged to his sister, Shirley. The sister, I thought she was fucking, or he was fucking. tried to create reasonable doubt by suggesting Ivan's brothers Richard and Walter Dick and Wally could be the killer slash killers and they planted the evidence at Ivan's house. Ivan's attorney told the jury quote, there can be absolutely no doubt

that whoever committed all eight offenses must be within the Malat family or very very closely associated with it. Blind Freddy can see that. There can be absolutely no doubt. The question is who is it within the Malat family? Who has committed these eight offenses? Which one

of these pieces of shit in this fucking feral plague on humanity family are the killer. He didn't say that last part. Not a bad strategy, right? A great one actually. Crazy that this family had multiple dudes

who easily could have been the killer. Mama Margaret must have been just so proud of her sweet baby boys. Ivan was the first witness called by the defense. He said he was not suggesting that the police planted evidence to frame him, but they probably did.

He denied an involvement said he had no idea how those items got inside his house. Well done, Ivan. Solid. I picture him just being ridiculous on the stand. Is your name Ivan Malat? No.

Come on, Ivan. Please don't start off things this way. Which way? Obviously lying. We know your name is Ivan Malat. Now, my name is Evan Malott. Sounds similar, yeah? That's why I'm here.

I'm here because my name sounds like the real killer's name. If you let me go, I'd love to help you find this Ivan Malat animal. during cross-examination, when asked how he happened to have the victim's property, he said, someone's trying to make me look bad. But then the prosecutor pointed out that the gun parts in his home were painted in camouflage, painted exactly like his other hunting equipment, and considering that Ivan had admitted already the other painted items were painted by him. This was rather suspicious, wasn't it? Apparently Ivan just shrugged and said, no, he's so annoying. The judge began summing up the evidence July 18th. The next morning, the proceedings were interrupted. when the judge then told the prosecution and defense outside the presence of the jury and defendant

that one of the jurors had received a death threat. A male voice told the juror, look out if you find. The juror thought the caller almost said the word my, but instead he said him guilty. You're dead. Strongly assuming. I'm positive. The call was placed by one of Ivan's shithead brothers. This juror was discharged before he had any contact with other jurors. And then on July 27, 1996,

Ivan Malat is found guilty of seven murders and one kidnapping. He received seven life sentences and an additional six years for the kidnapping of Paul Onions. Ivan was asked if he had anything to say and he replied, I'm not guilty of it. That's all I have to say. Justice David Hunt said something in Ivan's sentencing. He said, in my view, it is inevitable that the prisoner was not alone in this criminal enterprise.

Yeah, he seemed to think very strongly that one or more of Ivan's brothers were also involved. whether or not that's true has been debated amongst investigators and experts ever since Ivan's trial for example Sergeant Gerard Dutton the ballistics expert in the case believes someone else was involved he told the independent quote

looking purely from the firearms evidence it's suggestive of a second person it's not conclusive proof I have to say but to my way of thinking it suggests that cartridges found near the bodies of Gabor Nuzbar and Anya Hobsheet came from two brands of ammo from two different guns

And Dutton said, there was no crossover of one type of cartridge being used in another gun. One brand was used in one gun and another brand in the other. That, to me, is suggestive of two people with two guns and two different boxes of ammunition. Whatever they were doing, whether they were target shooting at the time suggests they were two different people. That's not definitive proof, but it's more probable. I could not say whether the bullets in Anya's skull came from different guns because they were too degraded, but they were fired from the same caliber as the Ruger used to kill Carol. Clark. Forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Rod Milton also believes there were two killers because of the different ways Caroline Clark and Joanne Walters were murdered. Right? How extra fucked up if Ivan was doing what he did with one or more of his brother is just a family affair. Ivan's brother Richard, oh, Dick was asked by a report as if he feared he could be arrested and he replied, not really. If they want me, they'd have me by now. His mother Margaret was shocked by the verdict but said if he did these crimes and he deserves to be punished.

she knew. She knew who her son really was. Shortly after the conclusion of the murder trial, a few reporters tracked down Ivan's brother Boris in a secret location, where he was hiding from the rest of his family. He was asked if he thought Ivan was innocent, and he responded, quote, All my brothers are capable of extreme violence, given the right time and place individually. The things I can tell you are much worse than what Ivan's meant to have done. Everywhere he's worked, people have disappeared. I know where he's been. And that poor bastard, just a decent dude born into a fucking pack of savages. Boris asked the reporters if they thought Ivan was guilty.

They said yes. Boris suggested that Ivan had committed 28 more murders. Sunday following his conviction, excuse me, Ivan was transported to a maximum security prison in Maitland, south of Sydney, and while waiting in line for his cell assignment, some tall, muscular inmate came up and punched him in the fucking face. Love it! Love that being his introduction to his life sentence.

During the next several years in prison, Ivan would swallow razors, staples, go on hunger strikes, engage in other forms of self-harm in an attempt to speed up his appeal to the High Court in Sydney, none of that will work. Why would that asshole think that anyone would care enough about his plight

to want to speed up his appeal so he didn't hurt himself anymore? Like, if I'm a guard there, I would love it, I would think, every time he hurt himself. He'd talk to my lawyer. Nah, I'm done eating. I'm done eating.

Tell you let me talk to my lawyer. All right. I'll swole him a razor. I swear I will. I'll swole my razor if you don't let me talk to my lawyer. No, you won't. I swear I will. Come on, prove it. Come on. Let me see it. Put that razor down in throat. I have an attempt to escape prison in May of 1997. In March that year, he met 56-year-old George Savas, who was serving 25 years for drug trafficking. Savas was a major figure in Sydney's underworld at the time. He played a big role in the city's infamous gang war of the mid-80s. In March of 94, Savas had been found guilty of conspiring from jail to import 40 kilos of cocaine from Brazil, 20 kilos of heroin from Asia, and he received

a 18-year sentence. Savvas actually escaped from prison after serving eight years, managed to stay on the run for eight months, but then after being apprehended, he was transferred to the same jail as Ivan Malat, and now these two guys made plans to overwhelm some guards, tie them up, steal their uniforms, scale the prison while wearing those uniforms, get through the gates, meet their accomplices who would then drive them away. But their plan fell apart almost immediately. were not able to overwhelm the guards, they attacked. Instead, those guards subdued them.

And then George Savas hanged himself the next morning. And Ivan was transferred to the maximum security unit of the Goldburn Prison near Sydney. February of 1998, Ivan finally got his appeal. Well, not really. But he has appeal paperwork looked at anyway. And then it was quickly dismissed by the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal. We filed another appeal a few years later, also dismissed July of 2001 that same summer Ivan ordered to give evidence at an inquest into the disappearances of three other female backpackers

although no case was brought against him due to a lack of evidence Ivan was considered the prime suspect in the disappearances of Leanne Goodall Robin Hickey and Amanda Robinson they all went missing a Newcastle between 1978 and 1979 20-year-old Deanne Goodall

was dropped off by her brother at the Musselbrook Railway Station in New South Wales She visited her parents in Newcastle before departing for Sydney, last seen at Newcastle's Star Hotel about 3.30 in the afternoon. Leanne not reported missing until February of 1979. The police knew that Ivan was a road worker in Newcastle in late 79 in early 1980, and he did frequent the Star Hotel. 18-year-old Robin Hickey went missing April 7, 1979,

last seen around 7.15 p.m. at a bus stop, across from her home on the Pacific Highway in Belmont North, a suburb of Newcastle. The initial investigation was short-lived And police assumed she disappeared of her own free will Witness later claimed they saw Ivan at the Belmont Hotel the night before she went missing 14-year-old, oh my God, so young Amanda Robinson went missing later that month April 21st while returning to her home in Swansea after a dance at her high school

She got off a bus was lasting walking along Lake Road During the inquest state coroner John Abernathy said Ivan had Definite links to the Hunter region also known as the Newcastle region and allegedly bragged to a friend that there were graves and corpse pits in the area. Ivan testified that he picked up about 15 hitchhikers but not in the Hunter region around that time.

He told the inquest, I had nothing to do with whatever happened to their children. I can look at them people right in the eye and say I'd absolutely nothing to do with your children going missing. That from the guy who also maintained he had nothing to do with any of the seven murders he was found guilty of committee. Ivan also made snide comments

during the inquest, such as I could ask how they let a 14-year-old, referring to Amanda Robinson, run around at midnight. Ultimately, the coroner found that the three missing women were killed by a person or persons unknown, but Ivan probably killed them. Another inquest took place in 2003 into this appearance of two 20-year-old nurses, Gillian Jameson and Deborah Balkin. They were lasting on June 12, 1980, leaving a hotel in Parramatta with a man in dirty work clothes. Deborah called her flatmate said they were taking a ride to a party in Wollongong. At the time, Ivan was working for the Department of Main Roads less than two kilometers from the hotel. Ivan was questioned about the disappearances, brought up as a person of interest at their wrongful death inquiry.

Ivan, of course, denied any involvement and no charges were filed against him. In May 2004, Ivan's high court application for special leave to appeal was, can you guess, denied. November 8, 2004, Ivan gave a televised interview where he denied that, he that excuse me that any members of his family were implicated in the murders you know which they certainly were he also denied he had anything to do with the murders he was in prison for of course 2005 ivan was questioned about 18 year old annette briffa who went missing while hitchhiking home january 10th 1980 last seen on the pacific highway between mount cola and as with new south wales just north of sydney one eyewitness saw her get into an orange mazda or similar vehicle it's

uncertain if Ivan was in the area where she went missing but he could not be totally eliminated as a suspect. I'd say he probably fucking did it again. And of course he didn't say shit. July 18th, 2005, Ivan's former lawyer John Martson was diagnosed with terminal cancer and he claimed

that Ivan was assisted by his sister Shirley in the murders of at least two backpackers, the British ones. Shirley had died of cancer two years earlier in 2003. Martin spoke to Deborah Cornwall from ABC. He told her he wanted police to reopen the investigation saying

I had no doubt from day one there had to be someone helping him and Martin said about the murders of Caroline Clark and Joanne Walters two women can be very strong as strong as Ivan might be the things he was doing they would have fought

they would have fought back I just don't believe he would have had to have someone helping him however former superintendent Clive Small said in his interview Ivan is a loner he's obsessive about his control

of his destiny and I don't believe that he would put his life in anyone else's hands and that is what he would be doing if he had an accomplice Marston said he regretted helping Ivan Stayed out of jail for so many years

After that, you know, rape, you know, not getting convicted of rape He said, quote, that haunted me for many, many years And in fact, I was on the police board During all of the Belangelo stuff At no stage, did it kind of register to me That it could have been Malat The modus operandi I urged him if in fact it was true

Let's do a plea on the basis of a psychiatric condition I didn't urge him to plead guilty There was a lead-up getting to that Then he sacked me Right, because he was fired Marritson said about Ivan's sister quote I recollect Shirley as tough hard no nonsense person

who certainly took control when Ivan was arrested they were very good friends they were very close yeah possibly super close of course Shirley stuck like glue to a sandwich throughout the whole process he doubted Shirley had zero knowledge of Ivan's crime saying anyone that lived in a house

where you've got parts of backpackers equipment everything in the ceiling you've got to get ladders to get in the ceiling you've got books about serial killing the person that lived there with Ivan either had some knowledge or lived in La La Land. Clive Small explained that Shirley was interviewed multiple times and there was nothing to suggest she was involved.

He did acknowledge, quote, I've got no doubt that at least some members of the family had acknowledged during the late 80s, early 90s period that Ivan was doing something. I might use the term very bad. I don't know that they believed he was murdering people. They were a family that had an unusual set of values and they simply chose not to ask.

That doesn't make them an accomplice. A family was an unusual set of values. That's a very nice way of saying they were white trash pieces of shit. That same month, Ivan lodged a new appeal with the New South Wales Supreme Court, delivered to the court by his brother Bill. Ivan wrote that the prosecution argued he was the sole killer, but the judge believed he acted either alone or in company. The court, once again, didn't care.

Ivan lost his appeal. September 7, 2005. December 2006, Ivan lost a bid for inquiry into his convictions again. January on January 26th 2009 Ivan did something pretty crazy

dude cut off one of his pinky fingers with a plastic knife must have been made out some seriously hard plastic how much of that hurt I'm actually impressed he did that

with the intention of mailing his pinky to the high court angry over having his appeals constantly being denied he really was so crazy and stupid

how did he think that would get them to hear his appeal your honor we have to give Ivan Malad on what? Why? On what grounds? It was an open and shut case. I know, but he just sent us his pinky finger. What? He cut off his pinky and he sent it to us in the mail. Oh my God. Well, that changes everything, doesn't it? Only an innocent man cuts off his pinky and mails it.

Ivan was taken to the hospital. Very next day, he put back in prison. When doctors determined surgery was not possible. They couldn't reattach it. And the high court was unmoved by this action. May of 2011, now 66-year-old Ivan, goes on a nine-day hunger strike because he wants to have a PlayStation 3 to use in his cell. Okay, he gave up after nine days, never got his PlayStation.

Corrective Services Commissioner Ron Woodham told a reporter for the Sunday telegraph that Milots' request was ludicrous. Mr. Woodham said, there's no inmate on my watch who will ever get anything close to a PlayStation, particularly Australia's worst serial killer. And then he asked.

added, I knew he'd start eating again because he likes his food too much. He can stage as many protests as he likes, but there'd be no point if he got one because he needs two hands to use it. And he's referring there to Ivan being down a pinky. Love that he threw him a little shade. Also, what game was he obsessed with, right? Just Red Dead Redemption or something? Wanted to run around the map, cost some chaos.

May of 2015, Ivan's estranged brother Boris came forward, claimed Ivan was responsible for the 1962 shooting of a cab driver named Neville Knight. Knight had been shot during an attempted robbery back on March 6, 1962, was paralyzed from the waist down. So much paralysis from this guy. Ivan was 17 years old at the time. A man named Alan Dillon was convicted of the crime sentenced to five years in prison, but Boris claims that Ivan admitted to the shooting.

Stephen Van Aparin, a detective who consults with the LAPD and the FBI, was called in to conduct polygraphs with Boris Millat and Alan Dillon. Aparin believed both men were telling the truth when they said that Ivan did it that he shot Neville Knight Ivan's seventh and last call for an inquiry into his conviction rejected in 2017

two years later May 13th, 2019 Ivan transported from prison to the hospital in Sydney to undergo tests for lumps found in his throat and stomach In December of 2018 Ivan had first reported difficulty swallowing and holding down food

and now he is diagnosed with terminal esophageal cancer Ivan's nephew, Alistair Shipsy had become one of his biggest advocates and had campaigned for a retrial he told the son Harold about the diagnosis quote, we're pretty upset we all love Ivan we all know he's been framed

oh Alistair you're all fools Shipsy believes his uncle was convicted based on the discovery of the victim's belongings at his house but there wasn't enough evidence to prove Ivan murdered anyone started in 1997 author and criminologist Amanda Howard had been corresponding monthly

with Ivan. They discussed many topics from gardening, his hometown to, of course, the murders. Howard was convinced Ivan did it, but would never, but he would never, ever confess, would never even hint he might have killed anyone. Howard told A&E true crime, I believe if he had taken a lie detector test, he would probably pass it because he was so convinced of his own innocence. Howard spoke to the Sydney Morning Herald about a potential deathbed confession saying, that's 100% not going to happen. If he sends something out to the press, which if he is to he probably will, it will be to protest his innocence to his last dying breath. In his letters to Howard, Ivan discussed his case and referred to the killer and third person

while maintaining his innocence. Howard believes these third person descriptions of the killer's actions could be coded confessions, though. Howard also said that Ivan wrote about his symptoms and suspicion he had cancer. He said in the letter, he believed he probably had cancer, he had lost a lot of weight. He pretty much knew. He wasn't sad, or he hasn't said how he feels yet. quite a religious person, a Catholic believer. He often speaks about religion in his letters. He's very confident. He will go to heaven.

Of course he was. 99% of these assholes conveniently convert near the end. They're victims, of course. Not given a chance to quietly reflect on their lives for years and then decide to become Christian. How can people believe that somebody like Ivan could go to heaven while their victims could go to hell?

It's something I will never fully understand. I've heard the logic a bunch of times. No, it'll never make sense to me. Ivan also corresponded with true crime, author Roger Maynard for the final eight years of his life and continually professed his innocence to him as well. Roger also said he never believed Ivan. Ivan sent a three-page letter to the son Harold in July 2019.

He wrote that he devoted his life, quote, holy to prove my innocence. And the court judiciary, who conspired to obscure the miscarriages of justice. I am sure that you are aware of how cancer is. It's a grim finding and less than 50% survive it. And I feel that the unpredictability of the effect of the treatment would overtake any commentary by me of it. It is in the hands of my doctors

and, of course, our Lord in Heaven. Okay. Ivan Milat, thankfully, died on October 27th, 2019 at the age of 74 and couldn't say stupid shit, self-serving bullshit any further. He had been in and out of the hospital since May, returned to the ICU

for the last time, October 14th. According to Australia's nine news, he refused treatment in his final days and was returned to jail before he died. And he, of course, maintained his innocence until the bitter end. And tragically, most importantly, he never got that PlayStation 3.

Interestingly, according to some reporters with the New Zealand Herald, it's believed that he privately admitted to his mom before she died in 2001 that he had committed the murders. And that will take us out of this timeline. Good job, soldier.

You've made it back. Barely. One more thing to go over before I share some final thoughts. In total, Task Force Air, the Task Force dedicated to catching the backpack murderer, identified 58 people who could be victims of Ivan Millat. The following are brief descriptions of some of those missing person and murder cases, right? This guy could have killed so many people. On February 26, 1971, 20-year-old Karen Rowland, who was pregnant, and her sister,

were traveling in separate vehicles to a motel in Canberra. Karen never made it And her abandoned car was found That evening in an undeveloped area The following day While working in Liverpool Ivan allegedly bragged to coworkers About murdering somebody

And burying their body in the bush May 3rd At the Air Disaster Memorial In the Fairborn Pine Plantation Near Canberra Karen's bones were found 15 meters or about 50 feet Off of a footpath

Off of a trail Her cause of death not determined The crime scene was compared To the Belangelo State Murders years later. As part of his job with the Department of Main Roads, Ivan often drove between Liverpool and Canberra. He was also believed to have been driving a gold Ford Fairmount at the time, and a witness saw that vehicle chasing a woman who matched Karen's description on the night of her disappearance. July 4th, 1972, 19-year-old Anita Cunningham,

18-year-old Robin Honville Bartram, graphic design students and roommates, left Melbourne and tending on hitchhiking to Queensland. Robin's nude body was found 80 kilometers or 50 miles west of the rural town of Charters Towers in Queensland. She was found under a bridge at Sensible Creek. Robin had been shot in the head with a 22-caliber rifle. Anita's remains were never found. Authorities looked into Ivan's movements around the time of the disappearances, and he has not been officially linked but not ruled out.

October 5, 1973, 18-year-old Gabrielle Janke and 16-year-old Michelle Riley decided to hitchhike from Brisbane to the Gold Coast. A week later, Gabrielle's body found at the foot of a steep slope on the Pacific Highway at the midway point of her intended journey. Ten days later, Michelle's body found in isolated bushland. Her dress pushed up. She was not wearing underwear. Her body concealed by branches similar to other Malat crime scenes.

21-year-old Lydia Knott's, a German woman, last seen at a friend's home in Chapel Hill, Queensland, October 31st, Halloween, 1976, left a note saying she'd come back in a week and was never seen again. July 20th, 1977, 21-year-old Norel Mary Cocker, went missing on a trip to Nusa, Queensland to visit a friend. Authorities believe she went missing in the Brunswick-Heads area of New South Wales, where Ivan frequently worked.

Her sister called the Malat Task Force in 1994, but Ivan was ruled out as a suspect due to conflicting dates in his work schedule. However, he reportedly had people sign in for him when he missed work, so he could have been her killer. 22-year-old Barbara Carroll Brown, an American woman, last seen in New South Wales, May 17th, 1978. Barbara was visiting her boyfriend's brother and his wife in Beecroft

she left her home planning on hitchhiking to Queensland before heading to Perth she was never seen again August 25th, 1978 20-year-old Stephen Lapthorn and 18-year-old Michelle Pope last seen in a car traveling from Stephen's home in West Pimble to Michelle's home

in Barowa Berowa there we go in Burawa Stephen's lime green van has never been found authorities have not ruled out an accidental death but they believed the pair was killed and remains were buried in the Karungai

Chase National Park. Karengai, excuse me, Keringai Chase National Park. Their deaths were certified after in August 2005 inquiry. Ivan Malat identified as the individual who most likely killed him.

22-year-old Alan Martin Fox and his fiance 17-year-old Annika Adrienson recently engaged, plenty to buy a house together who left their house in Sydney, December 26,

1989, the day after Christmas on January 2nd, In 1979, they visited a farm property in Beringba, a village in New South Wales, and decided they wanted to buy it. They returned to Sydney in early January to apply for a loan, still had over two weeks left at their summer break, so they decided to hitchhike to Byron Bay via Kempsey set out holding a sign with the word Kempsey painted on it. They were seen in Byron Bay on the afternoon of January 12th by a former school friend at a bus stop on Johnson Street. They failed to return home by January 17th, the day Marty was due back at work. The search area

expanded when Anika's school friend Marcel informed the police, she saw the couple in her shop January 15th. Authorities thought they might have joined a hippie commune. But friends and family insisted they would never do that. August of 2005, the New South Wales corner concluded they were dead and issued an open finding. Ivan considered a

potential suspect because he could have been on the coast of New South Wales at the time. And he's Ivan Malat. On the evening of July 27th, 1979, 15-year-old Tony Marie Kavanaugh and 16-year-old K. Dosherie last seen at a bus stop on their way to a discreet. and Wollongong.

A week later, a letter dated August first arrived, apparently from the teens, saying they were in Sydney, and then they were never seen or heard from again. In 2013, an inquest concluded the two teens died a short time after they disappeared. Ivan Malat was investigated as a potential suspect, but there was no detailed evidence to support his involvement.

17-year-old, Kim Sherry Deere, and her border collie went missing on East Melbourne, September of 1979, while attempting to get to Adelaide. Kim had been traveling across Australia In her final letter to her mother She wrote about her fear of hitchhiking And asked for her birth certificate So she could get a driver's license

Authorities believe something happened to her while she was hitchhiking How guilty did her mom feel 16 year old Amanda Zolis Last seen October 12th, 1979 A neighbor walked her to a bus stop On Tudor Street in Hamilton, Victoria At 6.30 p.m., Amanda was heading to the Christian coffee shop in Newcastle.

At 10.15 p.m., she called her father from Newcastle told him she needed clothes because she planned on going to Queensland, and no one has heard from her since. February 1st, 1980, 17-year-old Elaine Johnson and 18-year-old Carrie Angel were last seen in Cronulla. Authorities believe they were harmed while hitchhiking to Wyong on the coast of New South Wales. The girls often spent long periods of friends' homes and were not immediately reported missing. It was also reported that Carrie may have been pregnant at the time of her disappearance. There were some suggestions they were seen as late as 1982, but this is unconfirmed.

Ivan Malat, employed in the area at the time of their disappearance and is a main suspect. 20-year-olds, Joanne Lacey and Leslie David Tashach, reported missing April 20, 1981 after leaving Sydney to hitchhike to Byron Bay for a surfing trip. In 2012, a coroner ruled that both died under suspicious circumstances. Authorities suspect their case was related to other missing couples who disappeared in the area in the late 70s and early 80s. 22-year-old Susan Eisenhood went missing from the Mayfield neighborhood of Newcastle, in October of 19. Her brother dropped her off near the Stag and Hunter Hotel. She planned on hitchhiking to Tari. Susan's skeletal remains were found in 1986 at a site called Possum Brush in the Kai Warwick State Forest south of Tari.

Ivan was considered a possible suspect because Road Transport Authority records show he was repairing sections of the Pacific Highway near Tari and was staying in a hotel at the time of Susan's disappearance. November 13, 1987, 18-year-old Peter Letcher intended hitchhiking to his parents. House and Bathurst, New South Wales, but never made it. His bones were found on a woodland track near the Genolan Caves Tourist site, January 21st, 1988, his body face up in a ditch full of leaves and branches. Peter had been handcuffed, shot five times in the head with a 22-caliber gun, stabbed in the back, and possibly sexually assaulted. According to Ivan's estranged wife, Karen, in the days before Peter's disappearance,

Ivan took her once to Janolan State Park, to the Genolan State Forest, to see a dirt track and pine plantation as he was working in the area Peter was murdered soon after Karen left Ivan. March 10th, 1991, 22-year-old Carmen Verhaden lasting hitchhiking on the Hume Highway

in Kusula, near Liverpool, around 1230 a.m. Left a party was seen outside the Crossroads Hotel. She planned on going home to Westmead, but was never seen again. Because of her proximity to the Hume Highway, Ivan Milat,

a suspect in her disappearance and suspected murder. In November 1993, Task Force Air Detectives looked into the possibility that she was a victim of Milat but not enough concrete evidence to support that suspicion.

September 6th, 1991, 29-year-old Diane Panissio traveled to the Lake Gorge Hotel in Bungendor, New South Wales, told her friend she was going to hitchhike back to Queenbion, left the motel at 11 p.m. made her way to King's Highway.

November 13th, two forestry commissioning employees in the Talaganda state forest, 40 kilometers south of Bungendor, found a body. wrapped in pine branches. The victim was face down, only wearing underwear and trousers have been stabbed in the spine, a wound that would have paralyzed her, which of course fits Malat's cruel

M.O. On November 23rd, 1992, almost done now, 14-year-old Melanie Morrill Sutton and 16-year-old Chad Everett Sutton, last seen by their mother in Anala, Queensland at 8.35 a.m. They said they were going to walk to school, but it was later discovered they planned on hitchhiking to Perth to find their biological father. Authorities believe they passed by the Balangelo State Forest, and they've never been seen alive again or you know seen again at all 2017 the police revealed they were exploring the possible that chad and melany were murdered by ivan malat it's possible they hitchhike were dropped off in a remote area died of exposure also possible the sibling's still alive but come on and there's more there's more missing people than uh you know than that that Ivan may

have killed uh some investigators speculate he might have had up to 80 victims terrifying even more terrifying if he's not behind all those killings right that means that there were other people, maybe a lot of other people, snatching up hitchhikers, torturing and killing him back when he was still active. I know some stats say that hitchhiking does not significantly increase your chances of being a victim of a violent crime, but fuck that. Too much anecdotal evidence that it does increase your chances of dying a particularly gruesome violent death. Even if the odds of you being kidnapped and killed by some psycho like Ivan Milat or one in a million, one in ten million, still not worth the risk. Reminds me in that way of being attacked by a shark.

I know the odds of me getting attacked by a shark, even in waters known to be frequented by sharks that can and will bite humans, is very low. But if I was the person to be bit, that would be such a terrible, terrifying fate. I will not risk it. I'm never going to swim in shark-infested waters, and I'm never going to hitchhike.

I don't care what the stats say. Not going to... Well, okay, I will only swim in shark-infested waters, just my fucking stupid brain. Always finds it, like, loopholes. if I, like, am sinking in a boat, right? Or if I have to, like, jump in and try and save somebody. And they were swimming in circumvested waters.

And they're closely related to me. Because otherwise, I'm like, well, fucking, what do you expect, dummy? And then the hitchhiking thing, you know, like if, like, the car breaks down in an area where there's no phone reception, and that's the only way I can get to safety. But you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm not going to get risk. I'm not going to risk, though, getting tied up, paralyzed, tortured by some creepy piece of shit, like Ivan Malatt, unless I absolutely have to.

It was a dirtbag for his entire life. as a little kid he was known to local police for being a troublemaker just like his brothers his brother Boris claims he killed local pets for fun that he was born bad he dropped out of high school at the age of 15 by the age of 17 was already in jail for burglary before he was 20

he'd already been fucking two of his older brother's wives impregnating one bragging about killing some man whose body he dumped in the bush by the time he was 30 spent about half of his adult life behind bars for numerous crimes had raped at least one hitchhiker probably kidnapped and killed several

also spent a couple of years living abroad, hiding from law enforcement. By the time he was 40, he had married a teenager, roughly half his age, abused her for years, abused her son, beat his brother-in-law unconscious. By the time he was 50, he had very likely burned down his mother-in-law's house, also got arrested and charged with seven different murders. Murders, you know, where he likely raped and tortured his victims. By the time he was 60, he was in prison for the rest of his life, found guilty of all those murders. He had continually refused to help authorities provide closure to the families of victims. over and over again, also tried to overpower some guards

and break out of prison. By the time he was 70, he'd cut off a fucking pinky finger like an idiot, got on a hunger strike, trying to get a PlayStation 3 for his cell, continued to refuse to help investigators solve more and more cold cases that were very likely his cases.

He wrote letter after letter, or he'd written letter after letter to at least two authors, wasting their time, professing his innocence for crimes, any reasonable person knew he was behind, and then when he was 74, shortly after sending one more letter to the press,

claiming that he was such an innocent victim, claiming the police had framed him, still wanting others to see him as the real victim in all this, he died without ever taking any responsibility for the shitty things he did. But was convinced he was going to happen. What a sad, shitty way to live. Glad he's gone.

Wish he would have died so much sooner. Time now for the takeaways. Time shock. Top five takeaways. Number one, Ivan Malat, came from a large family, the fifth of 14 children. Ivan and his shitty brothers were the town of troublemakers. Shitty except for one.

Well known to local law enforcement. He first got sent to jail at the age of 17. His crimes escalated from there. In 1974, he was acquitted, probably wrongly, of raping a female hitchhiker. He picked up three years prior, a crime I think he certainly committed, which established a history and pattern of predatory behavior against hitchhikers. Number two, backpackers started going missing a New South Wales in the, uh, 70s, really, but not everybody realized it.

Definitely in the 80s, 90s. Some of them Australians, some of them visitors from places like Germany and the UK. Their cases went cold until September of 1992. When two bodies were found in the Belangelo State Forest, in late 1993, five more bodies found in the forest. All the crime scenes

bore the same signatures and the police knew they were dealing with a serial killer. Number three, survivor Paul Onions, Mr. Onions, played a key role in getting Ivan arrested. In January of 1990, Paul accepted a ride from a man who later pulled a gun on him in an attempted robbery. Paul managed to escape and file a police report, didn't know the man's real name. A few years later, heard

about the backpacker murders, called the task force hotline to file another report. Flew from England to Australia to view Ivan's image in a lineup, quickly and confidently identified him as a suspect, and that gave police enough evidence to make an arrest. Number four, investigators and experts are divided on whether Ivan had an accomplice, maybe multiple accomplices. Task force leader clive small feels confident that he acted alone others not so sure ivan's former attorney john martin went on record to say he believed ivan conspired with his deceased sister surely in at least one of the cases the judge who sentenced ivan to life in prison also expressed confidence that ivan did not act alone but so far no one has been charged as an accomplice so probably nobody will be number five new

info does murder run in the malat family besides so many of his dirtbag brothers all of which outside of Boris stood by him until the very end. One of Ivan's biggest admirers was his great nephew, Matthew Muleman. In 2007, when Matthew was 14, he legally had his name changed to Matthew Malat. His mother's maiden name. He wanted to be associated with Uncle Ivan the terrible.

Bit of a red flag. Matthew was just a toddler when Ivan was sent to prison, but he often talked with fondness about his killer uncle. Matthew was described as a shy but seemingly normal kid, at least until he was about 12. His friend Luke Ockers would recall, I've known Matt Milat since I was about 12.

Back then, he was just like the rest of us. He used to have fun, actually talk. For about four years, Matthew was friends with a teenager named David Octaluni, or Octoloni, excuse me. They spent a lot of time hanging out together, and David was one of the few people who remained friends with Matthew

when his personality shifted during his teenage years. Luke Ockers explained to the Sydney Morning Herald, as he started to get older, he started to get weird. He just went really quiet. He would sort of sit there, not talking anyone, and playing with this flick knife he carried everywhere. I didn't really talk to him that often as we got older,

but I think David did. Matthew wasn't the type to fight, but he once pulled a knife on David when David would not give him a cigarette. Seems like a pretty good reason to start avoiding him going forward. As you got older, Matthew started to show more and more interest in his great Uncle Ivan. He bragged about having a killer, a serial killer in the family.

Later, there were suggestions. Matthew was unhappy at home. His biological father Peter Murphy and his mom, Deb Muellerman, had broken up before Matthew was born, or when he was very young, time in those early years. Deb is the daughter of Ivan's brother, Bill Millat. Matthew lived with Deb and her husband, Scott Muleman.

Some suggested Matthew had a happy normal childhood. Others said he did not get along with his stepdad. Matthew would tell a school counselor. They were arguing, and he couldn't take it anymore at one point. And then just two days before he killed somebody, Matthew went to court to answer a charge of mid-range drunk driving. After an accident in May, he pled guilty, received a $300 fine, and a six-month suspended, suspension backdated,

which actually meant he got his license the next day. On November 20th, 2010, now 17-year-old Matthew and his friend Cohen Klein invited David Octolone out to celebrate his birthday. They said they were going to smoke some weed, but instead they took David to the Balangelo State Forest, where Uncle Ivan had tortured and killed so many people, and now his great-nephew, Matthew, tortured and killed David with an axe, while Cohen recorded the crime on his phone,

a recording that was 15 minutes long. After the murder, Matthew dropped his friend off, said he was going to dispose of their clothing and the axe. He later told a friend, you know me, you know my family, you know the last name, Malat. I did what they do. Matthew and Cohen were both quickly apprehended. June 7, 2012, Matthew was sentenced to 43 years in prison. We required to serve 30 years before he's eligible for parole. Cohen Klein, jailed for up to 32 years with a minimum term of 22 years.

During sentencing, the judge described how Matthew chased David around. a car that was parked in the forest after accusing him of spreading stories about him. The phone recording captured the sound of the axe, striking David's head. The judge told the court, this was a thrill kill on the part of Malat. And then he later glorified the murder through a poem he wrote titled Your Last Day. Just like Ivan, Matt showed zero remorse. Ivan Malat was apparently shocked and dismayed by Matthew's crimes, or at least, you know, the lying dirtbag pretended to be.

The victim's father, David Octolone, senior, said, obviously the apple doesn't fall far from the tree in that family. It must be in the bloodstream. Ray Walter is the father of one of Ivan's victims. Joanne Walter said, whoever has done this, these are evil-minded people, and like dogs with rabies, they've got to be put down, so they don't put their evil genes anywhere else.

Alex, the oldest Malad brother, described Matthew was a lost soul who went roaming after his mom remarried. Alex was mad that people said their bloodline was corrupted and said, that's like saying there is no difference between black and white. The only difference is in education. You can teach a dog to chase a paper. What people are saying about Malat clan? The Malat clan is bullshit.

What? I don't know about his. I don't understand his black, white analogy there, and that is it for these takeaways. Time suck. Top five takeaways. The backpacker killer, Ivan Malat, has been sucked. Thank you to the Bad Magic Productions team

for help and making time suck. Thank you to Queen of Bad Magic. Lindsey Cummins. Thanks also to Logan Keith, helping to publish this episode and design merch for the store at bad magic productions.com. Thank you to Olivia Lee for her initial research. Also, thanks to the all seen eyes, moderating the cult of the curious private Facebook page, the mod squad, making sure Discord keeps running smooth, and everybody over on the TimeSucks subreddit and Bad Magic subreddit. And now let's head on over to this week's Time Sucker Updates. First up, a lovely and wonderful anonymous sack wrote in with the subject line of Colt of the Recovery shoutout. I just wanted to give a shout out to the Facebook group,

Cult of the Recovery. These meat sacks are just the kindest, most humble, supporter group of people I've ever met in my entire life, which is cruel, ironic, and beautiful, because those in recovery have gone through hell and frequently are treated as if they should have stayed there. Yet they're still here, trying their damnedest and cheering each other

on. I originally joined the group around two years ago when you mentioned them on an episode during a time when I was really missing my dad. My dad suffered from alcoholism most of his life and all of mine. Still breaks my heart that he couldn't beat his addiction. But since I had a much better understanding of everything he went through, I joined hoping to encourage those who had not lost the fight yet. I introduced myself, explained why I was there, and just read post after post about their experiences. I'd encourage, but not counsel or advise, since I'm not qualified to do either. sounds cliche, but I never expected that I would feel so comforted accepted and understood by a group of people I've never met. I have treatment-resistant depression, anxiety, and ADHD, and this group feels like they understand how hard it can be just to get through the day. They really are inspiring as hell, and it brings me a lot of comfort to realize just how badass those in recovery are. Grief is a funny thing. Growing up with my dad wasn't nearly as bad as the common horrors you hear about, but it was still no picnic. He wasn't great to my mom. My sister and I have all the symptoms of an adult child of an alcoholic and has taken years of therapy to work through.

After we grew up and moved out, we pushed back more, tolerated less, and called out more bullshit. It actually helped my relationship with my dad, and it even helped me heal a little. My sister decided about five years before he died that she needed to go no contact with him, and I don't falter for it. Towards the end, he did a lot of soul searching, and he paid me the ultimate compliment. He said I was a great mom, and that if he'd known parents like me and my sister, when I was uh and if he'd known parents like me when my sister and I were little he would have been a much better dad he was a wonderful grandpa to my girls I wonder if you would consider doing an episode on addiction and recovery and maybe you have and I just don't remember that's entirely

possible uh I am trying to put together an episode for that in the future uh I don't know when but yeah uh okay then moving on I also wanted to comment on a couple of relatively recent things first I really appreciate all the newer episodes on subjects to closely mirror current events it's comforting to learn more about how a lot of this bullshit is not new it's still ridiculous but remembering that we've been here before keep some of the vague ominous dread at bay second this has been a few months now but you said you regret not speaking out sooner on issues that are important to you i just want to say i appreciate both it's a tricky balance oh man i've thought about this so fucking much the entire time i've been doing time stock this balance

it's a tricky balance that everyone has to make for themselves you always speak in defense of the underdog against the bully with kindness and curiosity. And if someone can get past the dark sense of humor, I think your intent is quite clear. In fact, in the earlier years, I think not speaking directly on some things serve the important purpose of drawing more people out of their echo chambers and into the middle to consider something different. Now that certain groups of people are in more danger than they've been in a while, I appreciate you speaking out directly in their defense without demonizing entire groups of people. It's unfortunate that some people will always attach a left or write designation to every damn issue.

Oh, it's the most fucking annoying thing. But that's their own shortcoming, not yours. Keep doing what you're doing. I appreciate you by the way. If you read this on an episode, please keep me anonymous. Thank you, Dan. Well, thank you, awesome anonymous sack.

I'll actually address what you said last first. Yeah, I never want to push people away by demonizing who they are based on, you know, who they voted for or religious beliefs. but, you know, I also have always called out behavior that just amounts to bigotry and just abuse. Lately, when I attack some of the things the current administration is doing, I don't consider it, right versus left, political criticism. I consider it criticism of Trump, who I find to be in his own universe politically. And, you know, his acolytes, I don't consider them, yes, Republican in name, but not an action.

I consider it doing, as you pointed out, standing up for those being unfairly and cruelly demonel. and mistreated. As far as the Facebook group, so thank you. As far as the Facebook group Colt of the Recovering, I'm just so glad that that group is still doing well.

I hope more people find it. Just, yeah, the private Facebook group, cold to the recovering. Sounds like such a great place for others to go if you're dealing with addiction directly or indirectly

if you feel alone, get in there. And thank you again, Anonymous, for sharing a wonderful testimonial. So glad you found an amazing community to be an amazing member of and hail Nimrod.

uh next up a wonderful christian sack josh wrote it with a subject line of recent episode hello lord of all things sucking i'm writing in as someone who loves learning and is always open to being wrong in a few episodes uh in a few recent suck excuse me you have done as you have done in the past and criticized the abuse of christian and its many abusers which i am totally good with being someone who sees themselves as christian uh as christian in the original meaning little christ aka uh someone following christ's teachings but has separated from the Christian church because I find their practices at times antithetical to Christ's actual teaching. I want to clarify the thought of some points you made in recent sucks. And I thought this was brilliant

what Josh does here. In the 7M suck when talking about the Mr. I play basketball and teenage girls, David Gurley, you mentioned that people forgive him and stated that no amount of prayer can turn people into a good person, yeah, specifically sex offenders.

And that people, if they care about their kids, should not bring them near people like that, and I 100% agree, and so does Jesus. Just because God forgives that person doesn't mean we should forget their actions. We are all broken people and have faults. Some have worse faults than others. Our fault brings consequences and consequences for what that evil human did should not allow him to be a pastor. That consequence also probably includes a registration as a sex offender, and the Bible does tell parents to protect children in general, so any logical person would see going to said church as a direct violation of that. The cliche of forgive,

don't forget seems to fit very well to my understanding the way god forgives is far beyond our comprehension or ability to rationalize attempting this anyway because why not the bible teaches god to see us as his children and if kiler or monroe yeah those are my kids were to do something completely horrendous would you stop loving them no uh while i am not you and cannot speak for you i would assume not you probably not like them much anymore i'll be very disappointed in them you'd be deeply hurt and feel a certain amount of guilt for being a part of what led them to those actions but you would still love them. Why? Because they're your kids. You help create them,

you raise them, you watch them grow. And my interpretation this is the same way God views our sins. Book of James, chapter 2, verse 10, for whoever keeps the whole law, but fails in one point, has become guilty of all of it. Many people misinterpret this verse to mean all sins are equal in God's eye, which I think is a lazy, over-simplification to make his forgiveness an easy thing to understand. If he thinks a lie is the same as a murder, then it must be easy to forgive murder or hard to forgive a lie, and we are all liars. In reality, I believe it's saying,

by failing one area, we are hurting slash disappointing our father, to write in Christianese. The level of that hurt can change drastically. A kid lies about a test score in school. That hurts the parent, but a kid kills the neighbor kid. That hurts way worse. And more people. This is the same concept. Adjacent to this, adjacent to this is the mention you had recently to Abraham being a rapist and a sex trafficker, which is one very blunt way to put that when viewed through a modern lens. I don't write in to protect those actions, but to mention the Bible is filled with horrible people. Murderers, rapist, terrorist, cheaters, some people teetering on genocidal maniacs, and those are the good guys. This leads to one of the lessons so often

forgotten by modern Christianity, namely, people suck. Always have, always will. To quote a history professor I had. It's not that history repeats itself, it's that people don't change. Oh, I like that. All heroes are flawed, and that is part of the beauty of humanity. And then another quote, what is better to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort. Nobody is perfect. Nobody in this world or the Bible except Jesus deserves worship according to what is actually taught in the book. Romans chapter 3 verse 23 says, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It says it right there, but people still forget this. If only the megachurch pastors and abusers would actually read the book they peddle for their own selfish

ends. At the end of the day, I'm just a guy trying to make sense out of this craziness and a crazy world going through a crazy time. I can be wrong, but oh well, I'm happy. Not as happy as if I lived in the shire, but oh well. Thank you bad magic team for bringing us to suck every week. You guys are truly appreciated. Much love for you. And as always, keep on sucking, your loyal space lizard, Josh. P.S., sorry for the spelling grammar errors. If this sounds rambly, I wrote this on my phone during a break at work. Man, Josh, that's impressive. There was not a bunch of errors. Man, on your phone,

I'm the worst fucking phone typer that would have taken me a year. Yeah, thanks for sharing your interpretations. I loved them, truly. And I wonder if you're familiar with James Tala Rico. He's a state senator down in Texas running for U.S. Senate,

very dedicated Christian, extremely loving, very tolerant man who wants everyone to have a seat at the table. I love him. I think you'd love him. Good reminder that not all Christians would embrace a pedophile with your message there,

that forgiveness does not mean forgetting. You know, sadly, a good friend, of mine grew up in the church his dad did forgive a registered sex offender invited him into their home let the guy move in with the family because he thought he was changed thanks to basically prayer uh nope instead that guy raped my friend's brother for years uh so stupid but what you shared not stupid it was uh it was wonderful yeah if kiler monroe did something like that yeah i would love him but i wouldn't you know ever treat him the same i wouldn't like him going forward uh i am also just a guy

trying to make sense out of this craziness and a crazy world going through a crazy time and I greatly appreciated your perspective and I want to believe that the world has a lot more Christians like you and James Tala Rico than it does, you know,

cult leaders like Robert Shin and people adjacent to that. And now one more from a rightfully scared sack Caroline who wrote in with the subject line of 7M, what do we do now? This is great. Hey Dan Lindsay and the amazing

time suck, scared of death team. Yes, time suck slash scared of that team. Listing to time time sick at work is how I get to the fact I have to work for a living, but today was rough because I listened to the 7M crumping episode. This episode was my introduction to the existence of the 7M movement and how close they are to the White House, and it made me physically nauseous. I keep hearing about these different evangelical organizations that are influential in this country like the family, and I can't help but feel defeated. I'm non-bineberry. Oh my God,

what did I just say? I literally don't even know what words come out of my mouth. I'm non-binary. I feel like I just said like I'm strawberry I'm non-minary and anti-fascist and it is so wild how communities I belong to are being accused of forcing people to live the way we live when that is literally what the evangelical Christian organizations are doing right now

oh sure it's irony is not lost on me I'm scared for being targeted just because I exist also I only say evangelical Christian organizations because those are the ones I've heard of but I'm sure there are other denominations and organizations doing similar shit Anyways, I'm writing this email to ask a question to you in the community, what do we do now? I hate feeling so defeated in this fight already, and I want so badly to hope and believe we can turn this shitstorm around as the country and have the government serve the people rather than those in power.

I feel like some people are becoming aware, but also that not enough for listening or paying attention. I have a lot of feelings. But what can we do to combat this downhill spiral our country is heading in? Maybe you, or no one right now knows the answer. I just needed to rant and put that probe for some hope out into the world. Thanks for reading this, for listening, for sucking. I appreciate this podcast and company so much. Best, Caroline, first off, sorry you're feeling defeated.

I also feel defeated a lot of the time. I think a lot of rational people do right now. Things have radicalized in America very, very quickly under Trump's second term. And anyone not agreeing with that, I truly believe to the depth of my being is just not paying attention. or just, you know, living in denial. Things are very, very, very different now. This is no longer status quo politics. It's, uh, there's been a massive ideological shift.

I was not worried about Project 2025 going into the election. I thought it was just smoking mirrors. Oh no. That playbook is being followed for sure. Uh, so make no mistake. We are in a culture war, uh, the biggest culture war of my lifetime by fucking leaps and bounds. There are definitely people, millions of people who do not want to see you exist, Caroline, because they fucking hate you. They want you to conform to their vision of reality,

a vision based in a cruel, frankly, cult-like, handmaid's tale-like interpretation of biblical law. They do want you to submit, not in a joking way. They think they are on a mission ordained by God and their minds will not be changed, no matter what you or I, or anyone says or does. they are in my opinion extremely delusional they are dangerous zealots they will employ fucking legendary amounts of cognitive dissonance and sunk cost fallacy until the day they die that's the bad news the good news is i truly believe they are just a very very vocal minority i think more people in america a lot more find their actions to be radical and abhorrent rather than acceptable or good and I think a lot of people on both sides

find them to be fucking lunatics. So what do we do? Well, we don't give up. We fight, we protest, we vote, we do not stay silent. Again, we truly are in a culture war and in the end, only one side will win. And if you lay down, you're helping the other side win.

There's no more room for middle ground. I have been accused of not being a centrist because I'm fucking not anymore because the radical right has pushed me out of that. So find politicians who share or profess to share are similar values. Vote for them, talk about them when people say dumb shit around you. That is not true. Question them. Example, some guy at the gym recently started talking to me about the left being so radical and so violent and just fucking tearing this country apart.

And instead of staying silent, I asked him if he knew that the Department of Justice had just removed a study from their own website, statistically proving that political violence in recent years comes from the far right far more, like so much more than it does from the far left, that the real radicals in this country are currently definitely, for sure, statistically proven to be on the right. Antifa is not the domestic terrorist organization we should worry about. It's not even an organization. It's a fucking boogeyman. Maga extremists, that's real, and that's scary. From an archived version of this report, quote, militant, nationalistic, white supremacist violent extremism has increased in the United States. In fact, the number of far-right

attacks continues to outpace all other types of terrorism and domestic violence. violent extremism. Since 1990, this has been going on a long fucking time, far right extremists have committed far more ideologically motivated homicides than far left or radical Islamist extremists, including 227 events that took more than 520 lives. In the same period, far left extremists committed 42 ideologically motivated attacks that took 78 lives. A recent threat assessment by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security concluded that domestic violent, domestic violent extremists are an acute threat and highlighted a probability that COVID-19 pandemic-related stressors, longstanding ideological grievances related to immigration, and narratives surrounding

electoral fraud, thank you, Trump, will continue to serve as justification for violent actions. Why did the Department of Justice take that down? Because Trump told him to. Because it didn't fit the radical rights divisive propaganda narrative, that the left is evil. When I brought this up at the gym, it stopped the person parodying propaganda in their tracks, right? Made him pause because he had no facts to counter me with because they don't exist. I wasn't a dick about this, by the way. You know, I wasn't fucking pretentious. I kept smiling, kept it casual, joked with him after this, and we still get along great.

And maybe a moment like that will not make him change his mind. But I think if he hears actual truth enough from enough people, maybe he will wake up to what's actually going on in this country. uh since like most people he is not an extremist he's just a dude who has been brainwashed by way too much propaganda from box news uh yeah we're being led by people with an agenda caroline an agenda to keep americans focused on hating each other to make people think that you know you are the enemy that i am the enemy as opposed to the fucking billionaire oligarch politicians and CEOs and hedge fund managers and big farmer execs who further enrich themselves at the expense of this country's health while they keep us distracted and confused but if we all keep talking if we all keep calling out bullshit if we all get engaged or stay engaged more than we've been in the past you know the time for apathy the time for middle ground it's fucking over i truly believe we can dig out of this hole hail nimrod don't give up i love you just the way you are caroline keep a chin up truly believe there are more of us who think the current bullshit is fucking insane than there are those who think things are awesome

in that. We all did. Well, thank you for listening to another Bad Magic Productions podcast. Be sure in rate and review time suck if you haven't already. Please don't pick up and kill any hitchhackers this week. I mean, good luck finding hitchhackers this week. But if you can find one, be nice to them. Don't kill them.

It's not cool. Just play them this episode instead. Make them rethink their hitchhiking ways while you both keep on sucking. Add Magic Productions All right Now I want to share some audio I don't know if those will translate

without the video I hope so Audio from a video I found of a teenage boy Looks like he's around 15 or 16 Losing his fucking mind When he finds out that his mom has canceled his World of Warcraft account This is an old video from 2009

And I just, when I was looking for videos When I found this by looking for videos Trying to find somebody freaking out over not getting to PlayStation 3 because I wanted to play that over the Ivan Malat you know, not getting,

going on the hunger strike to get his. And I just found this, Lindsay was like, what are you watching? And it just cracks me up. It reminds me of an exorcism video. Like if Kyler Monroe

would have done this, first of all, I would have laughed so hard at them and then just ask, what are you doing? Like seriously, are you embarrassed? You should be.

Don't you think this is like, like extremely pathetic? Is this who you want to be? His brother, you will hear, his younger brother at the start of this video sets this up.

He sneaks a camera into his brother's room As his brother's coming up the stairs Freaking out And then runs back in at the end And grabs the camera This is wild Okay, my mom just canceled My brother's world of work

I have to count And he is freaking out Oh my gosh Oh my god Now he runs out of his brother's room Get out of his brother's room Brother runs back in So upset

So upset Sounds like a squeal pig He's got demons in him I'm going to run away I'm going to run away now with the bed He's flopping around the room like a rag doll punching things I swear

You'll never see me again Now he's taking clothes off for some reason He's just in his boxers throw himself in his closet comes back out of the closet wave his arms around rolling on the floor now the very bendy spine

he was flopping around very flexibly that was weird he took a remote control and looked like he was going to shove it up his ass for a second pushed it against his butthole really hard Is this what you want? Now he's hitting himself from the head of the shoe.

We're not in my life. You're ruining my life. Hit him in the head of the shoe. So much insanity. I hate it. I hate it here. Shut up! Dad from downstairs just yells,

shut up! He immediately stopped screaming. said just flexes and punches his bed and then leaves his room to I imagine begged to get his fucking World Warcraft account reinstated little brother runs back in laughing so hard

so much his little brother's so happy oh my god so yeah maybe don't maybe don't fucking freak out that much it's just it's just a video game