Timesuck with Dan Cummins - 490 - How to Fail at Murder (and Life): The Jennifer Pan Story

Episode Date: January 19, 2026

Behind the straight-A smiles and proud immigrant-family success story of Jennifer Pan was one of the most elaborate webs of lies in modern true-crime history — and when that web finally snapped, it led straight to hired guns and a family nearly wiped out. In this episode of Timesuck, we dive into how crushing expectations, fear of failure, and years of deception turned a “perfect daughter” into the architect of a brutal home-invasion murder plot.Merch and more: www.badmagicproductions.com Timesuck Discord! https://discord.gg/tqzH89vWant to join the Cult of the Curious PrivateFacebook Group? Go directly to Facebook and search for "Cult of the Curious" to locate whatever happens to be our most current page :)For all merch-related questions/problems: [e-mail] (copy and paste)Please rate and subscribe on Apple Podcasts and elsewhere and follow the suck on social media!! @timesuckpodcast on IG and http://www.facebook.com/timesuckpodcastWanna become a Space Lizard? Click here: https://www.patreon.com/timesuckpodcast.Sign up through Patreon, and for $5 a month, you get access to the entire Secret Suck catalog (295 episodes) PLUS the entire catalog of Timesuck, AD FREE. You'll also get 20% off of all regular Timesuck merch PLUS access to exclusive Space Lizard merch Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Did you grow up with strict old school parents? While the idea of a classically strict parent, seems to have mostly gone away in recent years as so-called gentle parenting or consequence-oriented parenting has gained steam among those who want their children to feel more heard and respected, perhaps sometimes a little overly heard to the point of indulgence, it's likely that many of us grew up with, or at least knew someone who grew up with some strict parents. For instance, if you're a boomer born somewhere roughly between 1945 and 1965, there's a good chance you had the classic father-nosed best family

where punishment was dished out quickly for breaking rules or being disrespectful. Parents back then were expected to be hard-asses. That was 100% the norm. It was seen by many, if not most, as the only way to raise productive, respectable adults. But if you're Gen X and were born between 1965 and 1980, maybe you're one of those famed latchkey kids who walked themselves home after school and had the TV to keep them company until their parents got home from work, like I was for a few years.

You also likely had much more lenient parents, or at least it was easier to hide any rule-breaking. Though strict parenting is found across time and space, just like lenient parenting is, we can draw some general distinctions like the ones we just did, not only across time, but across different groups in society as well. In the past decade, we've seen plenty of cases of affluenza hit in the news. Kids who grew up without nearly enough discipline and boundaries,

kids who grew up rich and entitled with their parents, giving them everything, including unlimited opportunities to keep fucking up and not suffer any negative consequences for fucking up. And because of that, or so the media narrative goes, they never really learned the difference between right and wrong. Or rather, maybe they learned that it pays to be wrong sometime, to do what you want, even if it harms others,

because who cares? You won't get in trouble, so why not? You are all that matters, so fuck it. On the opposite end of the parenting spectrum in recent years, There have been many families that are not wealthy or less wealthy, including many immigrant families, who have had to endure the hardships of moving across the world and starting their lives over so their kids can have opportunities that they never did. And this experience has understandably hardened them, and they don't want to take any chances by letting their kids mess up even a little bit, and risks of not having the successful future they sacrifice so much for.

That was Jennifer Pan's reality. the daughter of two ethnically Chinese immigrants from Vietnam who arrived in Canada in 1979. Jennifer's childhood in the suburbs of Toronto was shaped by high expectations for her to succeed in school, to work in the medical field, make good money, and to make her parents Hui, Hanpan, and Bikha Pan, proud. To make their sacrifices feel like they were worth it. And for a long time, they were proud of her. Sure, Jennifer had some struggles. didn't do as well in high school as she or her parents wanted.

She never made valedictorian. She also had a boyfriend, Daniel, whom her parents hated, fearing the spending time with him, would distract Jen from achieving her goals, or rather their goals for her, but they didn't give up on her. And by the mid-2000s, she had graduated from university. She'd gotten a job as a pharmacist. She seemed well on her way to living the comfortable, stable life that her parents wanted for her, the one that would make them feel that the sacrifice of starting their lives over across the

world was worth it. She even found time to volunteer what a good girl. Or so she told them. For years, they had no idea that all of this was a lie. She never graduated from college. She never graduated from high school. She didn't work as a pharmacist. She also never broke up with her boyfriend Daniel like she claimed.

In fact, she was more in love with him than ever. And when her parents found out that they had been lied to in major ways for years, their response to the then 23-year-old was the kind of punishment usually reserved for a team. teenager. No money, no phone, no car. She would have to stay at home and become the person her parents wanted her to be, or she would risk losing them and their financial support forever. Jennifer agreed to stay in the family and do as her parents asked. That's what she told them anyway. But she didn't plan to follow the rules. She had something far darker in mind, a plan that would find her upstairs listening as three masked strangers stood in the dark outside while her parents moved to the

house, thinking it was just another ordinary night. Then the door opened and the men entered, guns raised. The wild story of Jennifer Pan and the lie she told in the terrible deed she set in motion right now on another true crime, murder mystery, fascinating look into the complicated relationships between parents and their children edition of TimeSuck. This is Michael McDonald and you're listening to TimeSuck. You're listening to TimeSuck. You're listening to TimeSum. Well, happy Monday, and welcome or welcome back to the cult of the curious. I'm Dan Cummins, Suck Nasty, God's one true prophet.

He just told me this morning while I was in the bathroom. I'm pretty fucking pumped about the whole thing. And if you have a problem with that, then take it up with him. And you are listening to Time Suck. Hail Nimrod, Hail Lusufina, praise me to Good Boy, Bojangles, and Glory B to Triple M. Last week's topic led me directly to this week's topic. Two cases centered around young women. Elizabeth Smart was obviously just a good guy.

girl when she was abducted. Jennifer Pan, a lot older, but acted much younger. And when I first saw her picture, I didn't think she was a teenager. But her story so much different, where Elizabeth Smart was unquestionably the victim, Jennifer Pan, in my mind at least, clearly the villain. But a lot of people seem to disagree with me, a lot. Whether you end up believing her to be only a villain, or a villain and a victim, or mostly a victim, I think you'll at least be entertained by this tale. So let's jump in. Though we started off today's episode with the discussion of strict parenting, uh, there's another version of parenting that we have to talk about before we get into Jennifer Pan's story. When you Google Jennifer Pan, you typically get some version of the statement

that her parents were quote, Chinese tiger parents, especially her dad, uh, hui. I think I said Hui earlier, uh, hui, who went by Han. Uh, the Chinese tiger parent is a stereotype that has become shorthand for strict achievement obsessed. families from Chinese backgrounds. And after reading a lot of comments left by commentators claiming to be Chinese under YouTube videos about Jennifer's story, there are a lot of people out there right now who believe that their parents are tiger parents. I'll share some of these comments after the timeline so you can decide if they're fair or

or not. Once you've heard this story, a lot of commentators felt that, you know, Jennifer was such a victim that she did what she did because she had to. I will say that, yeah, I am maybe in the minority with my take on all this. Again, to me, Jennifer, clearly the villain. Anyway, the concept of this type of tiger parenting traces its origins to ancient Confucian teachings. Ancient Confucian teachings.

There we go. Articulated in text written more than two millennia ago. Confucianism, the philosophy developed by Confucius in the 5th century BCE. Promoted values such as filial piety, family loyalty, hard work, honesty, and dedication to academic excellence through the pursuit of knowledge. education is a particularly important cornerstone for this philosophy. For generations, education has been regarded as one of the most important pathways to social, mobility, and cultural status in Chinese society. And I love that.

Education is so important, you know, in any culture when it comes to social and financial mobility. I think, I mean, sure, sometimes ignorant fucking people become wildly successful, and that is infuriating, but overall, better to be educated than not. higher education isn't merely seen as a personal achievement in China. It's seen as a responsibility to one's family and an essential means of securing socioeconomic advancement. Starting from toddlerhood or even babyhood, parents instill disciplined, rigorous study habits, and high expectations to ensure that their children fulfill these roles rarely accepting anything less than an A-plus. In China or other countries where tiger parenting is mainstream, tiger parenting is not seen. as controversial. It's seen as great parenting, reinforcing the values of wider society. And Chinese schools will often reaffirm these values by posting grades publicly so that kids

who do well can be praised by others and kids who do not can be shamed. But in multicultural societies like where Jennifer was raised, parents don't parent in a cultural echo chamber. There are all kinds, there are different opinions out there over what the best way to do it is. So if you're parenting, you're not only being judged by how your kid behaves, but also by how other kids are being parented, other values being promoted in the media, other sources of meaning that your child might discover from the broader culture they live in. To reinforce the classic Confucian values in their kids in these situations, Tiger parents can't just hope that firm discipline and expected obedience sounds like a better option than say, staying up all night,

playing video games and telling your parents to fuck off. In their belief, you have to resort to tactics to make them behave. In Amy Chua's 2011 memoirs, battle him of the tiger mother, for example. The Yale professor recounts how her daughters, Sophia and Lulu, were never allowed to attend to sleepover, get any grades less than an A, failed to come first than any class, except for gym and drama, and they had to play either the piano or the violin. To Amy, this naturally extended to what we might call threats and manipulation. She sometimes would call Sophia garbage and threatened to burn some of her toys, for example.

Interestingly, in a poll on the Wall Street Journal website regarding the response to Chua's parenting style, you know, what it got from its readers back when this book came out, two-thirds of respondents voted that the, quote, demanding Eastern parenting model was better overall than the permissive Western model. Alison Pearson remarked in the Daily Telegraph, Amy Chua's philosophy of child-rearing may be harsh and not for the faint-hearted, but ask yourself this. Is it really more cruel than the Lodge of Fair, indifference, and babysitting by TV, which too often passes for parenting these days.

Well said, in my opinion. I would argue that neither extreme is the answer, and that some mixture of the two is, right? Too lenient, too strict, both too damaging. It's like Goldilocks, right, in the porridge. You don't want the porridge it's too hot. You don't want the porridge is too cold. You want that good shit, that good shit right in the middle,

that bowl that is just right. But what's considered just right, you know, so subjective. Parenting is tricky. My youngest Monroe is about to leave the house, so I've been reflecting a lot on parenting lately. I am sure my kids will have complaints as all kids do. Overall, I think they had a pretty good childhood. Was I too strict?

I don't think so. Was I too lenient? Maybe, but I don't think they think that. I have definitely worried more over the years about being too lenient than being too strict because I do think that overly indulgent parenting absolutely ruins people. Not being willing to discipline kids when they fuck up, in my opinion, creates incredibly soft humans who often are almost, they just feel like too fragile to handle the harshness of the world.

And that's, that's just, you know, they've been done a terrible disservice, in my opinion. But obviously too strict, you know, can be damaging as well. In some tiger parenting households, the enforcement rules can be pretty severe, including physical discipline such as spanking, slapping, using household implements like a wooden stirring spoon to whip some ass. While many Western observers often see, such behavior as blatantly physically abusive. Within many Asian cultures, these same measures are viewed as expressions of love and devotion, important tools to ensure lifelong familial bonds,

respect, and high achievement. In other words, parents are willing to sacrifice being the good guy, being their kids' buddy, so their kids can succeed long term. Or to look at it on the flip side, as Amy Chua argued, Tiger parents feel that their children are indebted to them due to the sacrifices that the previous parental generation made to secure a better life for them, even if those kids never asked for those sacrifices. It's seen as both a sacrifice and a repayment, a dual condition that keeps parents bound to children through generations of family life. All or some of this may sound toxic to a Western audience, and many people, including

Amy Chua, have realized the limitations of it, that if you have an easy, naturally obedient child, this form of parenting might provide a straight path to success. but if you have a stubborn, unruly one, well, things might turn explosive and backfire. That was what Chua realized when she and her second daughter, Lulu, got into a huge fight when Lulu was 13. And Chua heard the dreaded words of, I hate you.

You make me feel bad about myself. I hate this family. To Chua's credit, she did not double down on her tiger parenting in that moment. She realized she'd taken shit a bit too far. And she pulled back, ultimately allowing Lulu to attend some sleepovers, have her own technology, right, i.e. fuck around her phone, and essentially just westernize a bit and

relax. Today, Chua's daughters are both successful. Sophia is a high-up military lawyer working in D.C., married to a fellow attorney. Lulu went to Harvard, has worked in several elite law firms. Both of them have mixed views on their childhoods, but ultimately think that how they were raised was a net good. Lulu would later say, I lost that childhood innocence, that sense of joy and wonder, and I definitely felt a lot of stress. I think it's important to be honest about the highs and lows of Tiger parenting. No one would believe me

if I said that everything was perfect all the time and I was constantly happy. I do think the good outweighs the bad and I'm proud of my parents and myself now. But I definitely think things could have been different. While Amy Chuow's story ended with negotiation and compromise, Jennifer Pan's experience would follow a far darker path. The big question is, why?

By all accounts, Jennifer's parents raised her largely the same way as Chua raised her kids. There were no sleepovers. Music practice was mandated for Jennifer, it was a piano, and there was rarely free time for personal hobbies of relaxing. You could argue that Jennifer's parents had more incentive to raise her this way than Chua did with her kids. Chua and her husband are both distinguished professors, and thus, you know, familial success

for them wasn't a matter of survival. It was a matter of prestige. They were very secure in their careers and their social standings. When they realized their strict emphasis on achievement was putting their family under unbearable strain, they could step back, adjust expectations, and allow their daughters some breathing room. The consequences of a bad grade or a Miss Piano recital were temporary, manageable, ultimately would not threaten the family's stability, you know, financial or otherwise or reputation. Jennifer's parents, by contrast, were recent immigrants who had showed up impoverished.

Hway Han and Bick Han-Hah had survived war, displacement, and the uncertainties of starting over in a new country. Failure in their eyes wasn't just disappointment. It was proof that the risks they had taken, big risks were wasted, that the new life they had struggled so hard to build, not just for themselves, but for their children, was slipping to their fingers. If they failed to produce two self-sustaining adults, their own financial stability could be jeopardized. pressure from Jennifer's parents was more practical. Why couldn't Jennifer understand that? Also, tons of kids have strict parents, even abusive parents, and they never go to the lengths that Jennifer went to

in order to escape some of that strictness. They don't start living entirely fake lives. Indeed, Jennifer fake going to college so well that her parents never knew, even after they caught her with her boyfriend that she didn't graduate college or high school. She would leave from their house in the morning, spend all day to public library, even bought used textbooks so her dad could follow along with her courses, courses she was not taking. In this way, Jennifer has much more in common with a lot of the male creeps

we've talked about in this podcast. Predators who live dual lives. Jennifer could have told her parents to fuck off, right, that she was an adult. She could have made her own money, stood on her own two feet, but she didn't. Let's meet her and her family in detail now. Try and make some sense of what she did do. Let's dig into how this wild story played out in today's, time suck timeline.

Shrap on those boots, soldier. We're marching down a time suck timeline. Our story begins in 1979. That year, my dad got your mom pregnant. Congrats! We're siblings! No. That year, a man named Huay Hanpan, who again goes by hand,

would move to Canada as a political refugee amid the aftermath of the Vietnam War. His future wife, Bik Ha, came separately, also a refugee. And quick note about BIC. Her name is spelled B-I-C-H, pronounced B-I-C. How nervous did her name make Westerners at places like doctor's offices, I wonder? Like how many times did a receptionist think, oh, fuck? Is, is her name bitch? Do I dare say, okay, bitch, doctor's ready to see you? How many times did a Starbucks barista, read that and just fucking panic? And then maybe every once in a while just one of them went ahead and just called out,

bitch, your drink's ready. I just needed to get that out of my head. Not much is known about the couple's early lives. Both of them were Hua Chinese from a diaspora group who had lived for generations in Vietnam. By the 1970s, that life was looking more and more unstable. After the end of the Vietnam War, the country was unified under communist rule and tensions with neighboring China exacerbated ethnic and political pressures, particularly on Vietnamese citizens of Chinese descent. Many Hwa chose or were forced to leave the country in search of safety and stability. In 1979, movements of Vietnamese refugees included many who fled through overcrowded camps and international resettlement programs, seeking asylum in countries like Canada to U.S. and Australia. For the future pans, arriving in Canada as refugees meant starting over from scratch. With a new language, right, got to find new work, their status completely up for grabs. they likely didn't make it to Canada with much more than the clothes on their backs.

So damn impressive for anyone to pull that shit off, by the way. That takes some serious strength of character. To flee to another country without the luxury of some kind of savings account or job connections, another country where they speak a different language to show up willing to bust your ass, work virtually any job anybody will give you, just figure shit out as you go, pushed forward by a fucking will to survive, a will to do whatever you got to do to make sure you don't end up out on the street. Huge props to any immigrant time suckers

who have lived or are living that kind of grind. Or to the children of immigrants who grew up watching that grind play out in real time. I hope you fucking have told your parents how proud of them you are for what they've accomplished. If you haven't, what the fuck you waiting for you? Ungrateful little brat fuck? Wait, what word was I trying to say before I said ungrateful?

Ungrantful? You ungrantful little fuck brat? Sure. Okay, maybe that plays too. The pans finding each other was one of their first real steps towards stability once they'd made it to Canada. They married in Toronto, started fucking, lots of P&V, maybe other stuff, I'm not sure. And they initially lived in Scarborough, a rough area that they hoped to soon leave behind for a better life in some nicer suburb. Their daughter, Jennifer, was born June 17th, 1986. By that August, within just a few months, she was taking piano lessons and working with a math tutor. Now, that's insane.

now she was busy being a dumb helpless baby three years later they had a son felix both han and bick had found jobs at the aurora based auto parts manufacturer magnet international hand worked as a tool and dye maker and uh bick helped make car parts not glamorous work but solid jobs for people not afraid to work hard uh they lived frugally and they saved aggressively i respect that so much short-term sacrifice for long-term gain uh and by 2004 bick and han had saved enough to buy a large home with a two-car garage on a quiet residential street in the nicer suburb of Markham, a suburb of Toronto, far safer than Scarborough. Fuck yeah, bro, right? Hard work doesn't always pay off like you hope it will, but goddamn it nearly always does. They continue to grind and save and soon allowed themselves the occasional luxury as a reward for their long years of hard work. Hand started driving a Mercedes-Benz, Bix started driving a Lexus ES 300, and then they saved some more. and by the early 2000s they accumulated over $200,000 in savings. And they expected part of that savings to be passed along to their kids someday.

But only if their kids also busted their asses. Their expectation was that Jennifer and Felix would work as hard as they had in establishing their lives in Canada. But in more prestigious jobs, thanks to the education that they had gotten, education that they never had the chance to get for themselves. They started pushing Jennifer early, just like their Chinese friends pushed their children early, enrolling her in piano classes, beginning at the age of four.

She took to the piano and excelled. By the time she was in elementary school, she'd racked up a trophy case full of awards. Then they put her in figure skating, and she took to that as well. She hoped to compete at the national level with her sights set on the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver for a little while, though she would tear a knee ligament and end that dream.

All of this, as you can imagine, left Jennifer with a demanding schedule on top of the expectation to get straight days in school and do a fair amount of chores at home. Some nights during elementary school, Jennifer wouldn't get home from skating practice until 10 p.m. Then do more homework for two hours until midnight, then head to bed, get up around 6 a.m., which is a lot for somebody who's not yet 12 years old. She continued to push herself or rather be pushed by her parents for years, applying herself rigorously to her schoolwork. Mary Ward Catholic secondary in North Scarborough, Scarborough. I don't know why that, okay, whatever. As far as Catholic schools went, Mary Ward was something of an anomaly. It had the usual high school. It had the usual high school. academic standards and strict dress code, but mixed out with a decidedly bohemian vibe.

All of that for most students made it easy for them to find their tribe. Most kids didn't form stereotypical cliques that hung out with each other across subjects, grades, and social groups. And most thought achievement was cool. If you played three instruments, took advanced classes, competed on the ski team, starred in the school's annual international night, a showcase of various cultures around the world, you were cool. You weren't just a fucking nerd loser.

To that end, outsiders were embraced. Geekiness was celebrated, and the anime club was consistently packed. In other words, it was the perfect community for a girl like Jennifer. A social butterfly with an easy, high-pitched laugh who liked achievement, but also like goofing around with her peers and just being a kid. She mixed with the girls, the guys, Asians, black and white kids, jocks, nerds, artists, etc. No matter what happened, who won the competition, who got the boys' attention,

she seemed to be having a good time. It would only be much later that people would find out that her happy, easygoing attitude was a facade. Internally, Jennifer was constantly tormented by feelings of inadequacy. Most of this was due to her parents. They wanted her to succeed, and when she didn't, they would berate her, especially Han, whom, again, many have described as a classic tiger dad. She also didn't want her parents to deal with the shame of having a daughter who seemed

ashamed of herself. Having a loser for her daughter was one thing, but having a self-aware loser for a daughter was, I guess, much worse. Bick would often try and comfort her daughter. at night when Han had fallen asleep, saying stuff like, you know all we want for you is just to be your best. Just do what you can.

Jennifer tried, or at least, claim to. As graduation from grade eight loomed, Jennifer expected to be named valedictorian and to collect a handful of medals for her academic achievements. But she didn't. She wasn't named valedictorian. Her grades were beginning to slip. She was starting to crack under the expectations

her parents had placed upon her, but she wasn't telling them that. By the time she was midway through grade 9, freshman year of high school, for those of us here in the States, she was averaging 70% in most of her subjects, C's, not A's, except for music where she continued to excel. And she still didn't want her parents to find out that she was not succeeding. And now shit starts to get a little crazy.

Using old report cards, scissors, glue, and a photocopier, she created a new forged report card with straight A's. And it worked. Her parents bought it. They were overjoyed. so proud of their high-achieving daughter. Yeah, things dipped a little bit in, you know, grade eight, but you fucking turn it around. Good for you.

Jennifer convinced herself that this little deception would not ultimately matter. Since Canadian universities don't consider marks from grade nine and ten for admission anyways, she told herself, not a big deal. She'd turn things around soon, no longer have to lie, no one would ever know, no one would ever get hurt. What did it matter? But she wouldn't turn things around.

she wouldn't because it was easier to keep living this lie in a number of ways. Meanwhile, her dad, Han was doubling down on his desire for Jennifer to succeed. Though Bick didn't put as much of an emphasis on achievement, she felt pressured, as others would later say, to preserve domestic harmony and abide by her patriarchal cultural household. Essentially, when she felt Han took shit too far, she didn't always stand up against him. Together, Han and Bick would pick Jennifer up from school at the end of the day, monitor her early. extracurricular activities, make sure she didn't go to a school dance or hang out with friends, activities that Hand deemed unproductive. When Jennifer was permitted to attend a sleepover at a friend's house, right, which would sometimes happen, Bick and Hand would drop her off late at night

and then pick her up early the following morning. And none of this to be clear was seen as unusual for Asian immigrant parents living in Toronto at this time. As one of her classmates would later write, the more I learned about Jennifer's strict upbringing, the more I could relate to her. I grew up with immigrant parents. parents who also came to Canada from Asia, in their case Hong Kong, with almost nothing, and a father who demanded a lot for me. My dad expected me to be at the top of my class, especially in math and science, to always be obedient, and to be exemplary in every other way. He wanted a child who was like a trophy, something he could brag about. I suspected the achievements of his siblings, and their children

made him feel insecure, and he wanted my accomplishments to match theirs. I felt like a hamster on a wheel sprinting to meet some sort of expectations solely determined by him that was always just out of reach. Hugs were a rarity in my house and birthday parties and gifts from Santa ceased around age nine. I was talented at math and figure skating, though my father almost never complimented me even when I excelled. He played down my educational achievements just like his parents had done with him, the prevailing theory in our culture being that flattery spoils ambition. Sounds terrible. I get not spoiling kids, but damn, don't also need to shit on them, never compliment them. This particular parenting style carried out in this way reminds me of a comedy manager.

I actually fired many, many years ago, right before most of his other clients ended up firing him. Actually, he would soon after leave the business altogether and good because he was a prick. He almost never complimented anything I did or his other clients, right? No successes, just but would belittle us frequently. And when I fired him and got a new man, he was completely caught off guard. And when I told him that the reason I fired him was because he was a fucking dick in large part, he acted like I was just being a baby and said some version of, I was just trying to keep you humble. And I told him some version of, I have the audience,

the rest of the entertainment business, and the rest of the world to do that. And they do a pretty damn good job. If the jokes don't work, they let me know every time. If the audition doesn't go, well, I don't get called back. I need the person I literally pay to boost my career to be the exact opposite of that. And I feel the same way about parenting, right? Home should be a safe nurturing space. The world is going to kick your kid in the teeth plenty of times. Other kids, teachers, bosses, et cetera, they're all going to let your kid know that they're fucking up, when they're fucking up. Sometimes when they're not. So why do you have to pile on? I mean, not being overly soft, right? I get not wanting to do that. I don't want to do that either. But that's not a good rationale for just being an asshole, right?

home should be a refuge from unnecessary cruelty, not a headquarters for it. But to be fair, in regards to what comes later in Jennifer's case, many children make it through these turbulent times with their parents and they don't come out on the other side broken. They figure shit out, their skin thickens, they seek refuge in close interpersonal relationships and perhaps later in therapy. And at first, Jennifer would find refuge in a close relationship with a boy. And we'll learn all about this boy after today's first of two mid-year-old. show sponsor breaks. If you don't want to hear these ads ever again, please sign up to be a

space list on Patreon. Help us make monthly charitable contributions, get the catalog ad-free, episode three days early and more. Thanks for listening to our sponsors. Hope you heard a deal that makes sense for you. And now let's return to when Jennifer Pan was in grade 11, and she met the boy who will become part of the worst decisions of Jennifer's life. In grade 11, aka junior year, Jennifer met Daniel Wong. He was a year older, goofy and gregarious with the big, small, mile, a little punch around his waistline, and an intense love for zesty cheese Doritos. I fucking get it, Daniel, I get it. Why can't Doritos be good for us?

They're so salty, crunchy, and delicious. Like Jen, he was also into music. He played trumpet and the school band, performed in a marching band outside of school. He was half Filipino, half Chinese, but he spoke perfect Cantonese and often chit-chatted with his Chinese friends' parents. Jen's relationship with Daniel was platonic until the school band trip to Europe in 2003 when Jen was 17. After a performance in a concert Half-filled with smokers,

Jennifer began to have an asthma attack. She started to panic. She was let outside of the tour bus, and there she almost blacked out. Daniel went out and found her, calmed her down, and coached her breathing. She later said, he pretty much saved my life.

It meant everything. Midway through his senior year, Daniel transferred to Cardinal Charter Academy. An art school down in North York, he was falling behind at Mary Ward and unbeknownst to most of his community, he had been charged with drug trafficking after cops found half a pound of weed in his car.

He had started to deal it. But he would then be back that summer and now he and Jen started to date, like for real. I guess they were flirting before this, you know, after the asthma thing, but now they're like officially dating. It was an important bright spot for Jennifer whose life otherwise was getting more and more stressful

and dark. Han and Bick still assumed their daughter was an A student in truth. She earned mostly Bs at this point, respectable for most kids, but unacceptable in her household. as a result Jennifer continued to doctor her report cards all throughout high school every single one of them and for a minute it looked like everything was going to be fine and her parents would never know she received early acceptance to Ryerson now known as Toronto Metropolitan University sounds like what would be like more like a community college here in the states

but then she failed calculus in her final year grade 12 which meant she would not graduate on time and I said it is facing the music taking a summer class getting a tutor graduate in a few months late Jennifer really fucks up and takes her line to the next level. She doesn't tell her parents, she isn't graduating. She actually tells them she is still going to Ryerson. She tells them her plan is to take two years of science classes there, then transfer over to the University of Toronto's pharmacology program, which was her father's dream for her.

She told him exactly what her dad wanted to hear. Her dad saw being a pharmacist as a respectable, evergreen career occupying an important spot in the prestigious world of medicine, exactly what two parents who had faced instability for much of their lives dreamed of for their kid. Ham was so delighted he bought Jennifer a new laptop. And now to keep this lie going, Jennifer buys some used biology in physics textbooks and other school supplies. Holy shit, so much effort being directed towards keeping this lie going. Man, it had to be so stressful.

In September, Jennifer pretends to attend orientation week. This is fucking nuts. Frosh week, they call it. I'm assuming it's like an orientation. Every day now, she's packing up her book bag and taking public transit downtown, but instead of going to class, she's going to public libraries, where she'll research what she figured were relevant scientific topics to these courses she should have been taking.

She'll even fill up her books with copious notes, all of which she would then show to her dad. This is fucking insane. She basically is going to college now, but getting zero credit for it, all because she didn't want to face her dad's wrath over flunking one calculus class. And I should add, there was never allegations of physical abuse, right? He didn't beat her.

He would just get really disappointed, you know, yell at her. Not saying that isn't nothing, but come on. This is pathetic. To me, this says so much more about Jennifer than her parents. Jennifer would now spend her free time at cafes or visiting Daniel at York University in Toronto, where he's taking classes, like actually taking them. To make money, you know, textbooks aren't cheap.

She picks up a few day shifts as a server at East Side Mario's, and Markham. She's teaching piano lessons, later even Tens Bar at a Boston pizza, where Daniel's working as a kitchen manager. So she could work. She was working. She's making money. And just hide it from her parents. She could have saved up a bunch of that money. You know, she could have saved there for like a year and then just moved out on her own. She had a bunch of friends not connected to her parents. So like, you know, a good social network.

Even if her parents, you know, went the most extreme route and disowned her, which I don't think they probably would have. But even if they did, She could have built a new life for herself, but she doesn't. She just spends her money on, I guess, clothes, eating out, whatnot, fucking around while living at home for free, driving a car, her parents are paying for, et cetera. I point all this out to make it very clear that she wasn't some kind of prisoner. She's an adult who can and did work. It could have left, but did not.

I think it's a very important element to the story that seems to get lost for a lot of people. Meanwhile, at her parents' home, where Jennifer is still living as a young adult, So Han is asking Jennifer about her studies all the time. And eventually his wife, Big, starts to push back a little, you know, tell him to back off, not interfere. Let her be herself, she'll say. And now you might be saying, aren't her parents wondering why they are not paying tuition? I mean, it is a little different, you know, in Canada, but why aren't they paying any money for this school? Well, Jennifer figured that out, too.

When it came to tuition, she doctored papers stating that she was receiving an OSAP loan. And she'd convinced her dad that she had won a non-existent $3,000 scholarship. This lie goes on for two full years. Two full years. For those years, Jennifer Pan convinced her parents that she had graduated high school when she had not. She pretended to study at Ryerson when she wasn't. And she continued to live with and off of her parents. She's also been secretly dating Daniel Wong this entire time.

And now her dad asked her if she's still planning to switch to University of Toronto to take their pharmacology program. And she says, yeah. Oh, yeah, of course. Of course I am. Pharmacy work here I come. but in reality she'd never applied. And of course not. Why would she? She doesn't have a high school diploma.

Hasn't taken a single class at Ryerson. Nevertheless, she tells her parents, good news, I've been accepted into the U of T Pharmacology program. Woo-hoo! Her parents are thrilled. They even agreed when she asked him if she'd move in with her friend Topaz now, who lived closer to campus. It wasn't a full moving in, only three nights a week,

but a big step towards independence. Which again, Jennifer could have had. She's living with her parents. She's not a slave. She's not a captive. Also, Jennifer doesn't really go to stay with Topas. Monday through Wednesday, she'll be staying with Daniel and his family at his family's home in Ajax, an eastern suburb of Toronto just past Scarborough and a large house on a quiet tree-lined street.

Jennifer lies to Daniel's parents as well, telling them that her parents are totally okay with the arrangement, and she keeps brushing off their repeated requests to meet Han and Bick over some dim sum. This is a fucking crazy way to live. and now this new fake arrangement goes on for another two years. So now Jennifer has been pretending to be going to college full-time for four fucking years. This is so ridiculous. 2008, theoretically, it was time for her to graduate from U.F.T's pharmacology program, which of course, Jennifer, who is now 22 years old, does not.

Instead, Jennifer and Daniel hire someone they had found online to create a fake college transcript, of course full of nothing but straight A's, and a fake diploma. wild also that he is helping her. Why would you continue to date somebody this dishonest? This isn't a little lie, she's telling. This is massive. This is a person you absolutely cannot trust in any way. Clearly, if they are worried that you will disapprove of some truth, you know, in some

situation, they will hide it. When it came to the ceremony, Jennifer told her parents that the extra large class size meant there weren't enough seats. Graduating students were allowed only one guest each, and she didn't want whatever her parents to feel left out, so she gave her ticket to a friend. That's a fucking nonsense. It's absurd. But they bought that.

She got him pretty good at this. She's had a lot of practice. She said that she had a friend take pictures of her at the ceremony, but you know, gosh dang it. Oh, that friend got on a plane and then they lost her camera. Oh, bummer. And now, finally, all of this is starting to look fishy to Jennifer's parents. It wasn't only graduation shit that felt weird. While supposedly studying at U of T, she also told her parents about an exciting new development

they should be proud of. She was volunteering at a blood testing lab at sick kids. Right? She's working with sick children. Oh, but what a saint. The gig sometimes required late night shifts on Fridays and the weekends. Right? So she's just fucking around.

Actually, she was dealing a little bit of weed. A lot of those nights, not helping kids, helping Daniel deal some weed. And because she would just tell her parents that she was staying at Topaz's house on those nights too. But eventually her parents noticed that she didn't have a uniform. They never saw a uniform or a key card from sick kids. something that seemed pretty fucking important if he actually volunteered there. And so one day, Han insisted that they drop her off at the hospital.

But then as soon as the car stops, this is so ridiculous. She sprints inside and then Hand instructs his wife, Bick, to run after her, to follow her. Realizing she's being tailed by her mom, she now hides in the waiting area of the ER for a few hours until her mom's up looking for her. This is so weird. Now more suspicious than ever. Early the next morning, Han and Bick called Topaz,

who groggily tells them the truth. truth. Jennifer didn't stay with her. She hasn't been staying with her at all. When Jennifer comes home that day, Han is enraged and confronts her. And now she confesses that not only had she not been volunteering at State Kids, she had never been in U of T's pharmacology program. Instead, she'd been staying at Daniels. The dude they said she couldn't date. That's fucking quite a truth bomb to drop on your parents' lap. And it still wasn't even the whole truth. She kept some of the lying intact. She did not tell them that she had never graduated high school or that she had never gone to Ryerson.

She still kept that part of the lie up that she did get two years of collagen. Her parents, unsurprisingly, are devastated. Bick is sad for her daughter and her daughter's future. Hand is furious. He tells Jennifer that she has a choice now. It is either go stay with Daniel

and lose familial support or stay with the family and leave Daniel. And Jennifer chooses she had a choice, her family. They now took away her cell phone and laptop, I guess took away some car privileges. they were paying for all that stuff for two weeks. So basically she's grounded as a 22-year-old for two weeks. Also, they now told her they were going to check messages

whenever they wanted on her computer and phone, which she was only to use in their presence now. And now you might be thinking, who the fuck do they think they are? Right? She's a grown woman. Correct. But she's a grown woman living in her parents' house,

eating her parents' food, having her parents pay for her phone, her car, a lot of her clothes, her computer, etc., etc. if she didn't want to lose her phone or her computer and also didn't want to lose Daniel all she had to do was tell her parents that she was choosing not just him but her independence and if you're like easier for you to say

well I have a quick story for you when I was Jennifer's age at this point in the story my stepmom at the time said a bunch of inappropriate shit to me and when I said some shit back she threatened not to come to my wedding with my ex-wife Heather unless I apologized and I didn't I stopped speaking to her and my dad because what happened was fucked up

and there was nothing they could do about it, financially speaking, because I had been paying my own way in life since I was 19 because my dad fucked me over. And I'm not, I get along with him great now. This isn't like, oh, be mad at my dad, just to explain. He let me know at the last minute that he wasn't going to help pay for college anymore after saying that he would, you know, pay half of the expected family contribution for the four years. Well, he did every one and then was just like, sorry, never mind. Wasn't because of something I had done. It was just because of money on his end. Long story, but it was pretty fucked up.

But good news, it led to me truly becoming independent. I took out student loans to live in a dorm room with a roommate, worked multiple jobs, to live in a shitty apartment that probably wouldn't pass fire code, you know, did what I had to do to come up with, you know, the expected family contribution, rent money, et cetera, also literally sold my blood, at least my plasma for beer money. You know, I figured it out. It wasn't fun all the time, you know, it was exhausting, but it was worth it.

I had another blowout with the same stepmom a few years later. It led to me cutting her out of my life forever. like she's dead now. There's no reconciliation. Cut my dad out for about five years. Did he approve? No. Did I give a fuck?

No. Made me stronger. I realize that family is a choice, not an obligation, that when you have toxic family members, it is okay to cut them out temporarily or permanently depending on their behavior. After my dad divorced her, you apologized a whole bunch. We worked some shit out.

We've had a better relationship since. In part because he knows I won't stand for that bullshit. Jennifer could have made choice. like that but didn't. She didn't want to live by her parents strict rules, which I get, not saying her parents weren't assholes, also wasn't willing to do the hard thing and walk away from their financial support, which I find pretty pathetic, since she clearly could and did work. Jennifer stayed at home and secretly hated her parents now more than ever. In February of 2009, she wrote on her Facebook page, Living in my house is like living under house arrest. She also posted a note. No one person knows

everything about me and no two people put together know everything about me. I like being a mystery. Okay. Over the following spring and summer, she sneaks calls in with Daniel on her cell phone at night whispering in the dark like she's still a teenager. Venshi, she's allowed a little bit more freedom. She is, after all, nearly 23 now. Also seem to be trying to get her life together, enrolling in a calculus course to finally get her last high school credits. Also in defiance of her parents' order, she visits Daniel in between teaching piano lessons, which she does for ever. extra cash. On at least one night, she arranged her blankets to look like she was asleep, then snuck out to Daniel's house, but forgot she had her mom's wallet with her, and why did

she have her mom's wallet? Because she fucking liked spending her mom's money. In the morning, Bick went into the room to get it and discover Jennifer was gone. Bick in hand, then ordered Jennifer to come home immediately. They demanded that she applied to go to college, hoping that she could still be a pharmacy lab tech or a nurse someday, and then again told her that she had to cut off contact with Daniel if she wanted her their continued support. Jennifer resisted, but Daniel was now finally done. He had spent over seven years now dating a girl whose parents had never had him over. Seven years with a girl who was not honest with his parents, with his parents either. He's 25. He wants to date somebody who has their shit together. He wants somebody he can settle down with, spend more

than a couple nights a week with, you know, not have to worry about whether or not her parents will still let her live at home if they find out about the relationship. And with all that, he breaks things off. Jennifer's heartbroken. And then shortly thereafter, she learns that Daniel has seen a girl named Christine and an attempt to win back his attention and discredit Christine. She tells Daniel a very fucking strange story. And by strange, I mean, beyond fucked up and insane.

Jennifer told Daniel that the real reason she had lied for so long about so many things with her family was because her parents were actually Chinese-speople. and she had been raised to be a spy herself, forced to work alongside her parents completing various espionage missions, which included high-level assassinations. The algebra two teacher at their high school, Mrs. Weldon, who didn't come back to school after the summer between their grade nine and grade 10 years? Yeah, she didn't get a job at another high school in Winnipeg and leave town like they had been told. Jennifer had snuck into her apartment via an air vent in the ceiling after breaking

to the H-VAC system from the roof of the building, and she had injected her with a rare toxin that gave her heart attack, and then she and her parents, after Jennifer snuck her dead body out of the building in the suitcase after chopping her up, they used their elite hacking skills to create a digital trail suggesting she had moved to Winnipeg and Jennifer burned her remains in the woods. She couldn't go to college. She was too busy with her martial arts, weapons, explosives, and deadly toxin training. She wasn't working on fake schoolwork at the library. She was hacking. And Christine, Christine was her latest target because she wasn't just some cute girl from Toronto. She was a Russian asset assigned to date Daniel to gather intel he may have gotten

from Jennifer over the years. And that was why Jen would have to kill her if Daniel didn't break shit off immediately. Okay, maybe that wasn't her story. But that was a pretty fucking good story. That would be a pretty fucking entertaining story. The real story, she told Daniel. I think it was actually crazier than that one in a way. She told Daniel that a man had knocked on her door and flashed what looked like a police batch. When she opened the door, a group of men rushed in, overpowered her, then gang raped her in the foyer of her house. This for sure did not happen, by the way. But this is what she said.

This is what she actually said. Then a few days later, she said she received a bullet in an envelope in her mailbox. Both instances she alleged were warnings from Christine to leave Daniel alone. Get the fuck out of here! She actually told Daniel that the new random girlfriend he had, had the connections necessary to hire a bunch of underworld thugs to pose his police officers, show up at her parents' house, force the wind, and gang rape her as a warning.

That's bananas. That is a hard, get the fuck out of here kind of story. And he didn't go for it. He didn't think she was telling the truth. So now, with both Daniel and her parents disgusted with her constant crazy lies, Jennifer looks to find a new friendly shoulder to cry on. In the spring of 2010,

she reconnects with Andrew Montemeyore, a friend of hers from elementary school, or going back to elementary school. according to Jennifer, he had boasted about robbing people at knife point in the park near his home, a claim he vehemently later denied. When Jennifer told him about her torturous relationship with her dad, Montemeyore supposedly confessed that he had once considered killing his own father. And now Jennifer wondered, was killing one's dad actually a good idea? Hmm. Montemeyore introduced Jennifer to his roommate, Ricardo Duncan, known as Rick, an anti-social goth kid.

and over some boba tea in between her piano lessons. According to Jennifer in court later, they hatched a plan for Rick to murder her dad in a parking lot at his work at the Tool and Die company. He's now worked in a place called Kobe Enstel, near Finch and McCowan. According to Jennifer, she gave Rick $1,500 earnings from her piano classes, and they agreed to connect later by phone

to arrange the date and time of the hit. But then Rick stopped answering her calls, and by early July, Jennifer realized she had been ripped off. So, Jennifer called the police. Help, I've been victimized. I've been stolen from. Please feel sorry for me.

I gave someone $1,500 to kill my dad, but my dad is totally fine and very much alive. Why is this happening to me? No, she didn't call the police. She also might not have ever paid Rick Duncan $1,500. He would have a very different story. He would claim that she had called him in early July, hysterical, requesting that he come over and kill her parents immediately.

He was offended and said no. and that he said that the only money she ever gave him was $200 for a night out, which he promptly returned. $200 for a night out. What does that mean? Was she like, will you kill my parents for $1,500? What? No.

Okay. Will you sleep with me for $200? I don't know what that was. Anyway, getting nowhere with Rick. Jen turns back to Daniel now. And they do get back into contact, and they start to exchange some flirty texts. I'm not sure if he is still with Christine. I think he is, though.

I don't know if they were off again, on again or not. And then things turned darker. That same summer, Jen's parents had unfortunately told her and her brother Felix about life insurance policies. They had taken out of themselves. They wanted both their children to be well provided for if the worst happened and someone killed them. Well, they didn't say kill. I'm sure they said, like, if we both died. Not exactly sounding like pieces of the shift now, are they?

Controlling, yes, authoritarian, yes. But terrible people, I don't think so. they were raising their kids in a way that was culturally normal for them, trying to create good, productive humans in the way they knew how. Doesn't mean they weren't assholes in some ways, but I don't think they were monsters. Jennifer's share of the estate would total somewhere around $500,000, and she wanted that money now.

She figured she and Daniel could live happily ever after if she got it. And I guess she just hoped that getting a bunch of money would help her brother Felix get over both of his parents being fucking murdered. Now the big question was, who would do it? Who would kill her tiger parents? a mere 19 miles away from Helen Avenue's tree-lined middle-class streets live three men whose identities would soon become of great interest to the police. Despite their relative proximity, though, their lives were nothing like Jennifer's.

After a brief time in a similarly rough neighborhood in Scarborough in Toronto's east end, Jennifer had grown up in a plush home in a better area. But countless children in Toronto's forgotten enclave of Rexdale had not been so lucky. Most households were single-parent, almost all of them, fell below the poverty line. There are many Rexdale's, wrote Toronto star journalist Christopher Hume. They can be found across North America, clustered on the fringes of the cities that spawned them. Rexdale has become shorthand for suburban blight, social breakdown and gang violence,

a gray landscape of highways and high rises, shopping malls, and churches. And for the kids that live there, the subject of much concern and study, the common complaint is that there's nothing to do. Wondering around the anonymous streets of this place, that's not hard to believe. Once built for cars and commuters, when industry dwindled and manufacturers moved on, the neighborhood became a harsh landscape of concrete and asphalt with a few opportunities. In 2011, Rexdale was about 30% South Asian households, 26% Caucasian, and 20% black. And though there were probably many stories of productive, cultural mixing, there were also gang wars between gangs formed along racial lines that frequently ensnared civilians.

Without much space to play around in or be a kid in or non-working parents to take. you to some place where you could safely play outside, most kids stayed inside their apartment buildings. Eric Cardi was one such kid. He had spent much of his youth in Rexdale at apartment buildings along Kipling Avenue, a road sometimes called crippling in reference to a local set of the Crips gang. Always a little shorter than his classmates, Eric was the eldest of a family of six kids. Growing up, he was a good student, thought about the age of 15. He was described by his track coach as quiet and reserved, pleasant to be around. Although like Jennifer, he's suffer from asthma that would affect his health, especially later in life. He was also

plenty quick and athletic as a youth. He was a quiet, quiet little guy. He just blended in with the rest, said Earl Letford, founder of the area's Flying Angels Track and Field Club. Some of the kids take it serious and go deep into it, but they usually have plenty of family backing and support. I get them when they're young and get them on a good path. Eric didn't make it out of Rexdale. Didn't stay on a good path either. To be fair, many people seem to like him, though. His girlfriends knew him as a soft guy who had big dreams, wanted to support his kids. Neighbors knew him as a dependable man who would go out of his way to help them. And when it came time to unwind, I guess he was alive for the party. And yet, beginning during his teenage years, there was another darker side to him,

an angry, sometimes violent side. He'd lost his dad at the age of 15 to a car crash. And soon after he started to engage in petty crime. When he was 18 and 1998, he was charged with uttering threats. year later he'd be convicted of carrying a prohibited weapon and discharging a firearm to endanger life He'd got into a fight at Brampton's Wild Water Kingdom, a water park And after being escorted out, hopped in a friend's car And confronted the other teams who were driving in their own vehicle At the, as the car he was riding in, slowly pulled up beside the other car

Eric pulled out a sawed-off shotgun And from about six feet away hanging out of the window 18-year-old Eric fired it, piercing the windows molding, striking the passenger in the vehicle in the left eye luckily for both men the bullet did not penetrate the victim's skull or I guess the uh bullet the uh oh my gosh oh my god the pellets shotgun pellets uh but it fucked him up real good man that guy dude started his day fucking around in a lazy river going down some slides ended it in the hospital down an eye

after a shotgun blast of the face damn uh eric was arrested held in jail for six months ultimately pled guilty to the charge which got him five years in prison once out the incident earned him the nickname sniper among his friends, which he later tattooed on his leg beside an image of an AK-47. Feels like an image of a shotgun will be more appropriate, but, you know, I guess who cares about the little details? Eric would spend the next 10 years racking up various charges for everything from cocaine trafficking to marijuana possession to assaulting a witness and a robbery investigation. Those who knew him described him as a lone wolf. Fuck yeah, I got another lone wolf in this suck. I feel compelled to let that play out the whole way.

I don't want to interrupt the wolf. Dangerous to interrupt the wolf. I don't know if it is. Eric was also described as a middle-level drug dealer who relied on friends and family to help him out when he was trying to avoid getting arrested. One of Eric good friends, also a business associate of his in the marijuana trade,

was a man named Lendford Crawford. Crawford was born in Kingston, Jamaica, June 2nd, 1982. And soon after Lentford was born, his dad was sponsored to come to Canada. He jumped at the opportunity and left his struggling family behind. Lentford's father would actually marry his sponsor, have children with her, settling in Vancouver.

So it was up to Lentford, his mother, and his sister to make their way in the world without him. They would move back into his mother's home parish of Claritin, a peaceful agrarian Jamaican community where Lentford spent most of his youth. He was a quiet kid, always willing to lend a hand to his mom or neighbors, never wanted to try to get out of chores, did well in school also,

and wanting her sweet dependable son to have a better shot at a good education, his mom sent Linford to Canada to live with his dad at the age of 12. So dad shows back up now. What she didn't know was that his dependability had a flip side. He was easily influenced, or as she would later put it, humble and willing. There weren't many bad influences in Claritin, but there were a lot in urban Vancouver. And soon after moving there, Lentford was busted by police for having drugs on him, and his mom and her new husband decided they needed to be closer.

So they worked on getting sponsored as well. And they would, and they would move to Toronto in 1999, bringing now 17-year-old Lentford to live with them there. Lentford and his stepdad Albert would make money cleaning machinery for a pastry manufacturer. Lentford also went to school for auto repair and soon as started doing oil changes, brake repairs, tires and more to local garage. Eventually, he got a job at Rexdale's K-I-K custom products, a manufacturer of bottled household products, and quickly moved with the ranks and made enough money to buy his own car. he had no interest in drugs or crime it seems at this point his life is actually pretty boring most days he'd work from three 30 in the afternoon to about midnight go home to his mom's house in rexdale or to brampton where his girlfriend lived with their young son but then maybe to try and get more money to provide for uh what's uh he's trying to have his family of his own now linfurt starts selling drugs and that's how he meets eric and the two become fast friends another of eric good friends a man from rexdale named david milvoganum

David was born in Montreal to a Sri Lankan father and a Jamaican mother. He eventually split his time between living in Quebec with his dad and at Rexdale with his mom. And like the others, David would get involved with crime early, selling guns, though he managed to avoid the police. His real passion was music, loved to rap under the name of Mad Indian. Which I could find some of the stuff. I am guessing it was interesting. The newest addition to this group would not be someone from Rexdale. It would be Daniel Wong, Jennifer's longtime boyfriend.

Daniel had been a very small-time weed dealer for years, right? Sometimes he even actually had Jennifer help him sell weed, but meeting Lentford opened a door to more big-time stuff, more money, larger quantities, more customers. Daniel became Lentford's apprentice, for lack of a better word, and the two were allegedly regularly purchasing half pounds, paying $2,700 for high-quality shit, $1,900 for more low-end stuff.

And when Jen floated the idea of murdering her parents to Daniel for that insurance money, Daniel didn't tell her to fuck off. He's like, okay, he turned to Lentford, whom he called homeboy. Jen asked what the going rate was for a contract killing. Crawford said it was 20 grand, but for a friend of Daniels, they get a friend discount for murder. You do it for $10,000. Both of them.

Jen was excited. She was in. She told Daniel the price was right, and she wanted it done. Cold-blooded shit. Meanwhile, things were actually getting better for Jen's family than they had been in a while. Hand did not like that his family was growing apart. tension. His daughter acted like a prisoner in their home.

Hands grown weary of that. He had once been angry with her all the time, but now he truly seemed to just want her to have a good life. He's softening. You know, he wanted to stop moping around as part of Hans' plan to get the family to reconnect in mid-October of 2010. They venture off on a road trip to Boston to attend a wedding.

The following weekend, Jennifer goes to Ottawa and to Montreal with her mom and an aunt for another trip. It seemed like the mood was lighter now around the Pan House, but that was partially because this murder plan have been put in motion. On Halloween night, phone records with later show, Lentford Crawford visited the Pan's neighborhood to scout out the site.

There was kids in costumes streaming up and down the street, providing a perfect cover. But on the afternoon of November 2nd, the plan takes an unexpected turn. Daniel texted Jennifer saying that he felt as strongly about Christine as Jen did about him. I think he was dating both of them at this point.

Suddenly everything is thrown into question. She texts Daniel, so you feel for her what I feel for you, then call it off with Homeboy. Daniel responded, I thought you wanted that for you. Jennifer replied, I do, but I have nowhere to go.

Yeah, fuck, yes, you do. My God, she is like fucking victim mentality personified. She's just victim mentality in the flesh. Nowhere, fucking drama queen. She can teach piano lessons. She could bartend. She can waitress.

She has done all of that for money. She had options. But, you know, that wouldn't give her a quick $500,000. Daniel wrote back, Call it off with Homeboy. You said you wanted this with or without me. Jennifer texts, I want it for me. So it sounds like it's still on. Next day, November 3rd, Daniel text, I did everything and lined it all up for you. Seemed Daniel wanted out of the arrangement, though. Whatever happened next was in Jen's court, and then within hours,

they'd reverted to their old ways, texting and flirty. Later that day, Crawford texted Jennifer, I need the time of completion. Think about it. Jennifer wrote back, Today is a no-go. Dinner plans out, so won't be home in time. Man, this is fucking cold-blooded. Over the following week, there was a flurry of text and phone conversation between Jennifer, Daniel, and Crawford. On the morning of November 8th, Crawford, text to Jennifer, after work, okay, will be game time. And now, before we move forward to the big fateful day, time for today's second and two mid-show sponsor breaks. Thanks for listening to those sponsors. Hope you heard some deals you liked.

And now let's head to November 8th, 2010, the day, John. Jennifer's terrible plan becomes a reality. November 8th began somewhat abnormally. When they were leaving the house that morning, Jennifer and her mom saw that the police had cordoned off part of their street. They were told they could not leave at the moment due to a gas leak nearby. Once police lifted that order, found the gas leak, you know, plugged it. Jennifer decided to stay home, practice piano instead of going out with her mom.

The day then unfolded in a routine sort of way, with Bick running errands before returning home in the mid-afternoon. Jennifer and a mom sat down for dinner together, hand-aid alone before retiring to his study to read the Vietnamese daily news, as was his habit. Jennifer's little brother, Felix, was in Hamilton about 45 minutes away where he was actually attending McMaster University, actually studying engineering.

After supper, Jennifer's friend, Adrian Timkowitz, dropped by, the pair watched their favorite TV shows, How I Met Your Mother and Gossip Girl. When he left, Jen went to her bedroom, turned on the TV, watched the amazing race, and chatted on the phone with Edward Pacificador, another friend. She heard her mom. And by the way, these little details, they do paint a picture.

I'm just thinking about this right now. Right, she's having this friend over, come on, watch some TV. She's calling this friend, you know, she just went on a trip. That's something to keep in mind about her parents. Strict, high expectations, sometimes dicks, yes, but also, sounds like she had a pretty fucking cushy life. She hears her mom return home about 9.30 p.m. from a weekly line dancing session, held at a Toronto church,

something. Her mom did each Monday with a cousin and a friend. Jennifer went downstairs to say goodnight to her mom, tell her she loves her to unlock the door as well so that Hitman could enter her house and fucking kill her mom. The following is what Jennifer would initially tell the police regarding what happened next. At 10.13 p.m. upon hearing Bick rummaging around downstairs, Jennifer was startled to hear her mom yell upstairs for hand to come down. It was the language she used, English, that sparked concern,

prompting Jennifer to hang up the phone and sit in silence. Bick rarely used anything other than Vietnamese or her native Cantonese inside the home. Jennifer sat frozen in place, she would later say, listening to strange and muffled voices coming from inside the house. She was so scared she did nothing. She just sat in a room until she thought she heard the voices leave the top floor. When Jennifer finally opened the door and peered out into the dark hallway, she saw a man walking towards her with a string in his hands.

He grabbed her, tied her hands behind her. her. I have a gun behind your back. Do what I say. He told her. Excuse me. If you do what I say, then no one will get hurt. Where is the money? Show me where your money is. Terrified, Jennifer showed the man where she kept $2,000 in cash, which she had stashed away to buy the latest iPhone. Then there was a second man, shorter, taking orders, not speaking. Then these two pushed her to her parents bedroom across the hall at gunpoint and asked her again, where did she keep her, or where did her parents keep the money? She didn't know, she tells them. So the man, the men ransacked the room, discover some cash in her mother's bedside table. They proceed

to drag Jennifer downstairs, order her to kneel on the floor, keep her eyes on the ground. She then heard a third man engage her mom in an angry confrontation, demanding her wallet and yelling orders that confused Bick, who kept trying to stand up to find her purse. When the men shoved her back to the couch, Jennifer snapped at her mom to sit down. down. Her dad was there too. They'd let him downstairs. And now he was telling them that he had $60 in his wallet upstairs. Next man number one asked man number two to get string from someone he called Cousy. When he returned, number one used it to tie Jennifer to the upstairs banister. Then she saw her parents being led to the basement and heard a snatch of dialogue. You lied. You lied to us. Then she heard multiple gunshots and then the men left. And she was able to wriggle her hands free enough to dial 911 and call to police. Okay, now for another version of this story. This one based on what actually happened. In this version of the story,

57-year-old hand pan wakes to the sound of an unfamiliar voice shouting, Where's the fucking money? He opens his eyes, he's in bed, his own home, sleeping soundly after a long day work, except someone is now in the room with him, a man pressed a cold metal handgun against the father or two's cheek. The man grabs him roughly by the scruff of his neck, leads him downstairs, the gun pressed firmly to the back of his head now.

As they descend the semi-circular staircase, Bick comes into view, but not Jennifer. Both assailants are wearing flat-rimmed baseball caps. The man looming over Bick is holding the gun to her neck as her feet soak in a bucket of water. Not sure what the deal is with the water. The couple tried to communicate, but the men keep cutting him off, yelling,

shut up! Then they ask him again. Ask Han again, where's the fucking money? Hand tells the men they're $60 in his pants pocket upstairs. They're welcome to take whatever possessions they can find, right? They're good for it. The man holding the gun on hand, out liar i need the fucking money nothing else and then says he feels a searing pain in the back

of his head falls to the floor a cascade of blood rushes over the living room couch he can't figure out what's going on as he and his wife uh you know are being assaulted even as he bleeds he still can't believe that this is happening to him but bick can he hears her plead with their captors you can hurt us but please don't hurt my daughter damn in the basement they're ordered to sit on the couch. The men throw blankets over the couple's heads. Hand stays silent, hoping against hope that, you know, what is seeming like is definitely going to happen will not happen, but Bick screams. A bullet then rips through Hans' face, fracturing the bone near the inside corner of his right eye, grazing his carotid artery. A second bullet hits him in the right shoulder, exiting out the back

of the top of his shoulder, and then they turn to Bick. An initial blast pierces the base of her neck. A second shot tears through her upper right shoulder before a final blast entry. and exits her skull, killing her instantly. Meanwhile, upstairs, Jennifer is tied to the banister by the master bedroom. Somehow she manages to slip her phone out of her pocket as the first shots ring out. Once the guys leave, she calls 911. As the line connects, she blurts out, help, please, I need help. I don't know where my parents are.

The operator is like, ma'am, ma'am, calm down. What's going on? Some people just broke into our house and they just told all our money. Jennifer screams. I just heard shots, pops. I'm tied upstairs. I had my hands tied behind my back. I had my cell phone on my pocket, please come help.

It's fucking weird that she has to explain why she's able to make this call, right? What did they look like? The operator asked. I'm not sure. The guy who was with me, he was a male. One of them had a hoodie, she says. They had most of the lights off before they left. I think he was black.

I think I'm not sure. They didn't hurt me. They had guns and they were holding me at gunpoint. They took my parents downstairs and I heard pops. All they said was, you're not cooperating. In the background, the recording captures a blood-curdling howl of pain now. It's Han, he's still alive. In the basement, Han slowly regains consciousness,

and the first thing he managed to see is his wife's body slumped over. He crawls over to her winting and pain, blood dripping from two gunshot wounds. But no matter how hard he shakes her, she won't wake up. Right? She's dead. Finally, Han makes his way upstairs. He reaches the main floor, staggers to the front door. Outside, he collapses in front of a neighbor who was on his way to an early shift at work. Dad?

The recording picks up Jennifer yelling down to him. I'm calling 911. I'm okay. Do you hear your mom anywhere downstairs? The operator asks. I don't hear her anymore, Jennifer says. Then she begs the operator to stay on the line with her until the police get there, and they soon do get there.

The patrol car pulls up to find two men in the driveway of 240 Helen Avenue. Next door to Pan's house, which was 238. Neighbor Peter Chung stood worriedly beside Hand Pan, screaming about the pain in his face in broken English. His clothes are drenched in blood. A, quote, thick red liquid dripping from his nose. according to case files. Constable Mike Stesco had no idea what was going on. Was this an attempted murder, an accident? But from hand-making the finger gun symbol, he quickly figures out it's a robbery.

Meanwhile, a second officer arrives, York Regional Constable Mason Baines. After hearing the gun call in his CB, he raced over to Helen Avenue, breaking the posted limit, covering the mile in a quarter and two minutes flat. As soon as he got to the house, he remembered his training, hit the wall, draw your pistol, check that the coast is clear. Mason is the first officer to hear Jennifer calling from upstairs. Mike Stesco and rookie partner Brian Derek followed behind Mason Baines. The first thing they noticed is how orderly the house is. Not normal for a home invasion, resulted in one homicide and another attempted one. Stesco would later note, everything in the house seemed to be where it should be. Obviously, we've done home invasions in the

past where the house had been ransacked. But in this case, nothing was out of place, nothing taken. All they saw was a thin trail of blood from the living room to the basement stairs. The true horror is in the basement. Big Pan's dead body is laying face down in front of a sectional leather couch wearing green, silky Winnie the Poohama's, her feet still wet from the soaking water, most of the room covered in a different liquid, though, thick, dark blood. Soon after, four paramedics rush in to try and revive her, but it's useless. She was already gone. In the meantime, there was still Jennifer to worry about, as in to worry about whether or not she was safe. Stesco instructed Brian Derek to head upstairs, secure the young woman, which Brian did. As he reached

the second floor, Jennifer called out that she wasn't actually sure if the assailants were gone. So he raised his pistol again and began to secure all the rooms. In the bedroom, he found the first sign that pointed to something like a robbery. The master bedroom was in shambles. The mattress flipped, the drawers, clearly rifled through, scattered, broken and empty. The content spilling out across the floor. Finally, he makes it to Jennifer, who is lying with her ankles to her side, her bound wrists, able to move away from the banister about eight inches.

Derek gets a pair of scissors from her bedroom, cuts the piece of string binding her tiny wrists. Interestingly, he notes zero redness, no bruising on her wrists. She hadn't been tied up very tightly, hadn't been hurt at all. That's very weird for a violent home invasion. Why would the assailants shoot both of her parents in the fucking head, but just not even leave her with the bruise? Jennifer certainly seemed like someone who had experienced something traumatic, though. She's shivering, so Derek covered her with his police jacket,

brought her outside of the paramedics, worried that the young girl might have been sexually assaulted. Meanwhile, paramedics were loading hand into a stretcher as Peter Chung, his neighbor, watches helplessly. Jennifer yells over to him, Daddy, Daddy, are you okay? Fucking piece of shit. Before the ambulance doors swing shut and the vehicle speeds off to the Markham Stoville Hospital. Jennifer, too, will head to the hospital accompanied by Derek during the car ride. She asks about both her parents, and he breaks the news to her that her mom is dead.

But she doesn't have like a big tearful reaction. Then he asked her, what she can remember of the night. she says she can't remember much There were three men One was smaller than the rest Had dreadlocks But that was all she could really see in the darkness The only light had come from the refrigerator

When the thieves had opened it While searching for her mom's purse Okay Because you know everybody knows Sometimes people hide their purses in the refrigerator At the hospital meanwhile Doctors worked quickly to save hands life Which he was holding onto by a thread

Unable to speak or move now When Jennifer arrived The reality of her new life Without her mom And possibly without her dad seemed to hit her. She has to talk to some crisis workers. They prescribed an anti-exiety medication before releasing her back into Derek's custody at 131 a.m. November 9th. Then it was on to the Markham Police Station, although before they got there, Jennifer's

Rogers Samsung phone would be seized as part of the impending investigation. Uh-oh. At 2.45 a.m., Jennifer was led to an interview room at the Markham Police Station, where she'll be questioned by York Regional Police Detective Randy Slade, a veteran of the homicide unit. Randy believed at this point that this was a broken young woman whose life had just been irreparably changed by what seemed to be a band of young thugs, so he wanted to go easy on her. After all, she looked like any young woman whose life until now had been fairly normal. She had glasses, French braid, hanging over her left shoulder, wearing a figure skating club sweater, black yoga pants, blue house slippers. But as he began to talk about the penalties for dishonesty, including a 14-year-old. your jail term for lying to the police potentially, Jennifer started to look real nervous.

And that struck Randy as odd. She started to fidget, rubber legs, then placed a hand over her heart. He left the room to get a Bible for her to swear on. And when he returned, she jumped, like she was so deep in her thoughts, she had forgotten where she was. Then she promised to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help her God. And for a while, Jennifer answered the questions calmly. It was only when the murder of her mother was mentioned that Jennifer began to display intense. emotion, bowing her head and starting to sob uncontrollably. For some reason, she struggled to pronounce her mom's name, eventually sounding out the correct pronunciation of Bick Ha-Pan, before turning her face away and weeping. Didn't take long before Detective Al Cook observed from an adjacent room something troubling.

When Jennifer was given a tissue because, you know, she's sobbing supposedly about her mom, it comes away dry, perfectly dry. There's no tears. And he wonders, is she faking it? Seems like she's faking it. And why? Why is she faking it? Once again, she gives her descriptions of the assailants.

She says the first was black with a medium build and dreadlocks that flopped over his face so that she couldn't make out all his features. He's between 28 and 33, about 5'6, seemed to be the one in charge. And for some reason, Jennifer would refer to him as the gentleman. When asked about his, that's a weird way to refer to your fucking parents' attackers, when the gentleman came in and shot my mom in the face. When asked about his facial hair, she mowed. with her hand around her chin saying, I think before her first utterance of a phrase that would

become a recurring theme throughout the interview. I don't want to say something wrong. She said the man, whom she described as number one, carried a handgun, wore black leather gloves, and sounded as though he was born in Canada. But there were some things that were obviously off, even in this description. She said his face both had a roundish quality, but also a squareish quality. How's that possible? Number two, who she said was running back and forth between the other two men assisting had a long oval face was wearing a dark hoodie a bandana covered his nose and he never spoke she claimed to have never gotten a good look at number three the man held her parents at gunpoint but said he had a Caribbean accent then she gives her version of events the story where

she gives the men the two thousand dollars gets led downstairs before being put back upstairs hears the assailants call her parents liars before they descend to the basement but there are some key differences when she recounts the second version of the story initially she didn't see her mother after she returned home. But in the second telling, she descends the stairs to greet her. Her first account also involved a man coming toward her with a string, but in her retelling, she claims number one, showed her his gun in a holster before ordering her to sit on the bed and grabbing the money, this time $2,500, not $2,000. So this isn't good. Right? One of the easiest ways to catch somebody in a lie is to have them repeat their story several times. It's a lot easier

to have each telling line up if each time you're remembering what actually happened as opposed to trying to remember some half-cocked, made-up bullshit you might not have thought out to the degree necessary to keep the story consistent.

When she was led downstairs in the second version of the story she was told to sit on the floor, but in the first account, she said she was ordered to kneel. She then recalled something new, a critical moment. It was at this point,

Jennifer said that she disobeyed the assailant's orders to keep her eyes on the floor and looked up, noticing that number three was of a thin build. also observed that he was pointing a revolver at her father, something she said she could tell because of the gun's rotating cylinder. In this version, though, she told Slade that the men found substantially more of her parents' money,

$1,100 and U.S. dollars, from a recent trip to the States. During this second version, the men failed to locate the wallet once again said, you lied to us, you lied to us. She also said that she wasn't tied up until number two brought number one a shoelace. Finally, the second story arrived at his conclusion, the death of Bick Ha. Jennifer said, I think I heard my parents going down the stairs, and my mom was asking them, was asking them for me to come with them, but they wouldn't let me. I want my daughter. Why can't my daughter come to? I want my daughter, she said. I heard two pops. My mom scream. I yelled out for her and heard a couple more pops. And I think I heard my mom say or moan something, and then they did one more shot. One of the guys said, we have to go now. It's been too long. And then they ran out the door. Right? They didn't have time together. Then the next thing she knew was she's calling 911 and her dad's bolting out of the house. This is another detail that Detective Bill Cordes fixated on.

Why would dad run out of the house, injured or not, knowing his daughter is still inside? Slade then asked a little about Jennifer's situation at home. She was, after all, 24. Was there a particular reason she still lived at home? I mean, if she had all this money saved up for a phone, why not move out? Jen said her family, quote, needed her home for a while and that she had that she earned money, teaching family for piano friends. She added that she was going back to school in January

to study biotechnology engineering, which, no, of course she wasn't. A few minutes later, Slade mentioned that her little brother Felix was being interviewed next door and Jennifer's response was odd. Instead of asking to go see him, you would think she would want to burst into tears and run to her brother.

She said, oh, he has to be interviewed too? A little while later, Slade left. And now the video footage of the interrogation shows Jennifer alone. She takes a swig of work. water before placing her head and her hand, her thumb and her forefinger on her temples. Her two hands eventually cover her face before she sits up, places her hand over her stomach. She stands up, appearing dizzy and disoriented, at one point even regaining her balance on the wall and then her chair. And she almost faints as she paces around the room.

She begins to shake her hands, then places her forehead against the wall. When Slade re-enters 20 excruciating minutes later, he decides to share a bit of the investigator's line of thinking. he says, It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the intruders might have been drawn to your mother because of the type of car she's driving and where she's driving too.

It's something we have to explore. And suddenly, Jennifer noticeably relaxes. She's like, whew, all right, they don't think I'm a suspect. She seemed much more at ease with this new line of discussion, saying that her family could have been targeted because of their wealthy aesthetics.

Her mom did drive Alexis. She confirmed her dad drove for Mercedes. But Jennifer's good mood won't last. Slade begins talking about time stamping using data collected from her phone and Jennifer gets way fucking nervous again. She falters. She starts to say, I just don't like, I like, I like talk to people on the phone, but I don't.

And then she cut herself off as Slade began to give her the most distressing update yet. The unfortunate thing is that Edward Pacificador and Adrian Tim Kowitz are probably going to have to be interviewed because they were in the house and on the phone with you, he said. Jennifer takes all this in with her hands crossed over chest. this time unlike when she was talking about her parents in the beginning she seems to be on the verge of real tears her eyes actually seem wet investigators then asked her to sign over her consent for access to calls and texts from her rogers samsung phone between november first and night

and instead of signing it over immediately she asks how they're going to use it how how deep into this will they look just just regular phone calls it's only because sometimes i phone piano teachers and stuff like that that's what she says slate explains that the evidence from cell towers will help confirm her story or not. Jennifer seemed very surprised that they weren't simply taking her word for what happened inside the house. She didn't think they were going to look into things very seriously. Fucking idiot. She asked if she would be told about who from her contacts will be contacted by the police, but Slade did not answer her. Jennifer left the station looking a lot more rattled than she had

when she had shown up around 5 a.m. While she was in the interview, doctors had decided to airlift Jennifer's father from Markham Stovill Hospital to a central Toronto trauma center where they could put him into a medically induced coma. Meanwhile, the police station, the police are trying to figure out what the hell happened to why. The first assumption they have, why this assumption, I'm not sure, is that the pans were part of some illegal gambling ring. Maybe there was a lot of that going around at the time.

But then it soon becomes apparent that 57-year-old hand and 53-year-old Bick could not be more straight-laced. They were just normal working people raising their family in a nice suburb. So why the fuck were they killed? Why would robbers risk getting caught up in a double murder when there was plenty of stuff to take that they didn't take? Why would they be the victims of a random home invasion in the first place? Right? They didn't seem to be there didn't seem to be any basis for a rumor about a safe bursting with cash or jewelry or of a mattress full of $100 bills or top of the line sports cars,

all of which would have motivated a potential robber. In the absence of that stuff, why would the robbers have chosen the pants? and once they found what they could supposedly least a couple thousand dollars why hadn't they just left also why hadn't they stole either one of the pans you know nice cars why had they seemingly not taken any of Bix's jewelry

why had they literally left just some cash laying around in plain sight and home why would they try and kill two witnesses but barely touch a third even the 911 operator seemed confused during Jennifer's frantic eight minute call to the police do they know your parents anything like that any relation to them she asked

they just came and tied you up? She asked. Besides a murky motive, the police also had something else to contend with, a developing media circus. As far as suburbs went in Canada, York region with just over a million people, of which the city of Markham made up about a third of that was about as safe as it got. The entire region only experienced 14 home invasions the year before in 2009. Markham had only six. Damn, roughly 300,000 people living there in 2009 and six home invasions.

Pretty safe place to live. live. This appears from our early investigation to be random. Then York police chief Armand Labarge advised the media. He knew that would cause paranoia to jump, you know, at least if it's not random, there's some way people can protect themselves. So he vowed to bring all hands on deck to find those responsible who were described in the following way. Number one, male black, 28 to 33 years old, five feet seven inches tall with a medium build. Number two, male black, 31 years old, five feet eight inches tall with a thin build wearing a dark hood and a bandana over his face. Number three, male, thin build with a Caribbean accent.

DeKatsis men, 24 officers will be assigned to the case, which was being coordinated by a team of three leaders. The first and most senior was senior investigating officer, Detective Sergeant, Larry Wilson. The primary investigator for running the day-to-day tactical strategy was Detective Bill Cordes. The number three, the file coordinator was Detective Constable Alan Cook, a former drugs and vice detective who would also worked in the Intelligence Bureau. Together, these three men would have to parse through this strange crime. At the moment, both Wilson and Cortez thought details around Jennifer were weird, but still assumed those three men were responsible for the attack.

Alan Cook, though, was convinced something else was up. How did the killers know, for instance, that the pans did not have a gun or an attack dog? Why would they attempt to murder both parents but leave Jennifer alive? You don't break into a house, shoot and kill two people. At this point, it was unclear if Hand would survive. and then leave a witness tied up. I mean, they tied her up. It's not like she hid from them.

She's tied up, but other people are subject to being shot, yet not this person. Why not? He would later say. Meanwhile, Jen was gathered with her family around her comatose father's bedside and the intensive care unit at Toronto's Sunnybrook Hospital,

one of Canada's foremost trauma centers. God, well, must have been going through her mind. Soon the doctor would inform them that hand's condition was dire, but miraculous. Apparently one bullet had entered his face and traveled down, shattering his neck bone, and lodging itself in his neck. The doctor explained that hands still had bullet fragments in his face, but that somehow, almost impossibly, the bullet had missed a vital artery.

Had that been hit, he would surely be dead. But as it stood, it looked like he was going to pull through. This news, of course, came as a great relief to everybody gathered there, but Jennifer, she has the doctor if the bullet lodged in her father's neck could cause an infection. Asked that a little too quick. He assured her that it couldn't. In her head, she must have been like, Fuck!

My parents are right. I can't fucking do anything right. Back at Helen Avenue and Markham, the police continued their investigation with two detectives assigned to canvas hundreds of homes in the neighborhood, 400 to be exact. But before they even started,

they heard a knock on the door of their command post, a small RV. An anonymous person told him that Daniel Wong, Jen's ex-boyfriend, was a drug dealer, and she was sometimes his delivery person. The police checked his records. Sure enough, he did have some drug convictions. They weren't sure, of course,

that that related to the murders, But, you know, could be something. It was interesting. Perhaps this was a drug deal gone wrong. Perhaps the killer simply knew how much drug money Jen might have on her. On November 10th, 2010, Daniel walked into a Markham police station

accompanied by a girl named Katrina Villanueva. He'll be interviewed by Detective Robert Milligan. Unlike Jennifer, the 25-year-old Daniel stays calm during questioning. In the recording, he talks about how he attended York University, but dropped out to work full-time at Boston Pizza. He's now seeing Katrina just started dating the girl waiting for him outside,

but from high school until about two years ago, he said he was just dating Jennifer. Now he tells detective something surprising. Jen had made it seem like her family life was nothing special, a happy set of parents with two happy children, but Daniel says that Jennifer was not allowed to date that her parents were very, very strict, forced her to figure skate and play piano growing up,

kept piling on responsibilities and chores until she had no time for a social life, and that drove Jen to secrecy, a weird level of secrecy. He explains how she developed a separate existence, telling her parents that she was attending university, even working as a pharmacist. Yet all the while,

she was actually employed as a server at East Side Marios, then later at Boston Pizza. It tells them about the discovery of her secret boyfriend in the fallout how Jen tried to help his image in their eyes by telling them that he had graduated with a degree in engineering that he hadn't. They then pointed out that it didn't make sense

that he was working at Boston Pizza when he could be making a good salary, and they also disliked that he was only half Chinese. Daniel said that he and Jen had talked about getting married, but he couldn't imagine getting married to someone he had dated for seven years, but had still never had a family dinner with. And finally, push came to shove and Jen's parents had said it was them or Daniel. Jennifer moved back in. And with that, her parents confiscated her cell phone, laptop, and money forced her to quit her job, and that spelled the end of the couple's

relationship in April of 2009. He would claim that he sold weed here and there in the last couple years. After a friend got busted, though, while driving his car, he decided to get out of the game. He said he had never wanted to get Jen involved. And after their breakup, the they'd only traded the occasional text or phone call, which wasn't entirely true. He said that was until a few months ago. Then he started getting weird phone calls from an unknown number. It'd be quiet for 10 seconds or so, then the person would hang up. Then he would get weird texts like, ha, ha, ha, bang, bang.

When they spoke, Jennifer told him that she too was getting hateful messages. So was Katrina now, his new girlfriend. The odd happenings reached a crisis point. He said after Jen's cell phone went missing and then turned up in her mailbox, sitting in a bag, containing a white residue. Denver even received a bullet in the mail, Daniel added, and had been gang raped by five Asian men. So now he's presenting the crazy lie that she had told him as truth to try and cover his own

ass, I guess, in his head. You know, he's worried about being connected to Jen with these hitmen or having, you know, he was the one who connected Jen to the hitman. I'd be worried too. If anything had something to do with the murders, he told the police, it was probably that. I'm more than 95 to 99% sure it has nothing to do with my drug dealing back then. he said. He also told the cops that Jen had a second cell phone, a Bell mobility iPhone that he had given to her so he could secretly contact her. And then Milligan had one last question

for him. He asked nonchalantly what it would cost to have someone taken out. Any amount, Daniel says on the recording, if someone's desperate enough, they'll do it. Some were to, it would probably have to be around 10 grand. I'd be pretty sure for 10 grand. Some would do something like that. Why the fuck would he tell them the truth there? A two hours after the interrogation started, Daniel walked out. Same day, Jennifer would get the news that her grandfather, Bick's father, had died. She fucking killed her grandpa, too.

Dude died of shock and a broken heart. Of a broken heart, you know, when he found out his daughter had been shot in the head and killed. Later that evening, at 9, 10 p.m., Michelle's cousin was being interviewed by police. Jennifer had been staying with Michelle and Michelle's parents, so she would be one of the best witnesses to the young woman's current behavior.

And she definitely had some new info. Michelle told investigators that hours before her interview, Jennifer specifically told her that she and Daniel had broken up again. Jennifer had also said that she had been receiving threatening messages on her cell phone. She's trying to act like there's this mysterious harasser out there, the person who clearly set this up and killed her parents.

The next day, November 11th, Jen arrives for her second interview with Detective Slade. Video footage shows a solitary Jennifer sitting in the interview room, twitching like a caged animal. She rings her hands, cracks her knuckles, looks nervous as fuck when she's asked to repeat. What happened on the night on November 8th? She, her leg begins to shake uncontrollably, right?

She knows she can't do it again, and she can't. In this version, she now explains how she sat frozen on her bed upon hearing her mom call up to her father in Vietnamese, not English, as she previously made a point to say. Jennifer also recounts how after peering out of her bedroom door, she was shocked to see number one coming towards her with his gun drawn, although in the first interview, she stated he was carrying a string. She then fails to mention the $1,100 taken from her parents' bedroom. I didn't see them recover anything. No, she says. She is really fucking this all up. She is not built to pull something like this off.

She is buckling under the pressure. When Slade presses her on details about money taken, she starts to weep. I'm sorry, I don't remember everything, she says. Don't apologize, says Slade. The only reason you'd apologize is if you've lied to me, he adds. He knows. He knows she's full of shit now. she's left even more vulnerable

when Slade questions why she thought the intruders didn't ask for the combination to the plainly visible safe in her parents' bedroom closet. After some question about the two phones, Slade pulls out a new line of question. How did she call the police with her hands tied behind her back? How could the device be tucked into the back of her Lulu Lemon pants without falling out?

Why did she only place the phone call after everyone left? Why not try and call sooner before her parents were shot? Clearly not wanting to oblige them. the request. Jen slowly rises contorts her body. It's not clear. Excuse me how she can hear the phone because she can only get to about two feet away from it, from her, you know, from her ear. He asks her how she managed to carry on the conversation and she hesitates before answering, I turn the volume on max. After all of that, he lets up, gets her some water, and now tells her to give him the sequence of events again, but backwards this time. I like this guy. I had never thought of that before, trying to catch somebody in a lie.

I mean, if you know what happened, right, because it did happen, it might take you a little while, you might struggle here and there, make a few mistakes trying to figure it out backwards, but you could do it, right? Might even need a piece of scratch paper and a pencil. But you could think, well, well, this happened. Okay, and before that, okay, this happened, and so on. But if you're trying to reverse a lie that you never took the time to write out and just fully memorize, oh, you're still fucked.

Jennifer's leg starts to twitch again, with long pauses between each step, once even whispering to herself, am I missing something? She recounts the invasion from end to beginning, and she fucks up a bunch of details. And griping about her grumbling stomach, her nervous gas gets so bad, she actually openly farts.

And then apologizes to Slade. Oh my God, I love it. Openly farting while being interviewed by the police. Like, how embarrassing would that be? I wasn't anywhere near there that night. I was with my friends, Russ and Chris. What was that? Sorry, my chair league squeaked against the floor or something.

Okay. So you were with your friends. Russ and Chris. Yep. All night. What was that? What's going on? I don't know.

Maybe my chair or something is... All right, never mind. Where were you and Russ and Chris that night? We were... If I'm, ha! Oh, God! Were you eating nothing of beans and eggs and cheese at fucking Christmas house? No!

Why would you ask that? Oh, God. Come on, kid. We know it was you. We can still smell these same farts of the crime scene. No! There's no! It's just inquisitance.

Oh, God. Oh, no. Anyway, when the question turned to her past, Jennifer relaxed, as though she were to therapist's office. She detailed how she'd met Daniel, fall in love at 17. Our father had wanted her to be a pharmacist, but she didn't want to.

She explained how instead of attending class at two separate institutions, Ryerson University and the University of Toronto, she was actually going to library, you know, follows her fine notes. So she's looking real credible here. So she also worked at the server, you know, bartender, study piano,

you know, live with Daniel three days a week, just like Daniel said. On the flip side, once she moved home, back home, or, you know, her home life was boring. Her parents still believe she had a university degree and could work as a pharmacist. she said they wouldn't let her.

She said she woke up, played piano, help with chores, went to music lessons, returned home, and then repeated that over and over and over. Only time she'd gone out recently was a couple months back on her birthday, she said, when she went skating with Topaz. Even then, she had to be home by 9 p.m. At that point, Slade leaves,

and Jennifer begins breathing heavily and clutching her stomach. She goes for a bathroom break, just absolutely fucking annihilates the toilet, I imagine, returns, still shuffling from foot to foot amazing. She's so nervous. She has the worst nervous stomach, and she should be nervous.

When Slade got back, he asked her a simple question, why her? Why leave her alive and upstairs? As Jennifer stammered through her response, Slade said that he also had to ask what was obvious, that Jennifer must have had some amount of resentment for the kind of life her parents had forced her into. And another thing, someone who could lie so much for so long, couldn't that person also be involved in the killing of their parents

and then lie about it? Jen denied it, and she would ultimately leave the police station, scared out of her fucking mind at 2 p.m., heading back to Hans' bedside to wait for him to wake up. She had no clue that at that moment, Detective Alan Cook was wondering how dumb a trio of robbers could possibly be, not only to break into a house without lockpicking tools or bags to carry the loot, but to not even bring duct tape or any rope to bind Jennifer's hands. She'd been tied to the banister with a string from her mom's sewing kit. Something was very, very fishy. None of this made sense. This was looking more and more like an inside job.

And then, investigators would see this case break wide open. When Han wakes up, November 12th, 2010, approximately four days after he had been shot, immediately the family is relieved, gathering to help him however they can't except for Jennifer. Her father's survival pushed her to ask for a hospital therapist immediately, whom she complained to about how the press is treating her. My God. Meanwhile, Han can bear it. fairly sit up. So he needs support to prop him up in bed while he lays there in immense pain.

There were still bullet fragments in his face. Doctors will never be able to remove all of them. But the fragments had not damaged his brain, and he remembered that night. And so when detectives Marco, Napoleon and David MacDonald interview him, Han tells them about the assailants. Two black men, one white man. Unlike Jen, he mentions that they all wore turtlenecks, possibly to hide tattoos, and their black clothes seem splashed with something brown. Crucially, he says that while he and Bick were being terrorized, Jennifer was not tied up. She was, quote, freely moving around the house.

They had to have known in that moment if they didn't already that she orchestrated this shit. He also told his family that he did not want to see his daughter, Jennifer. Although she still managed to visit him the next day on November 13th. And during that visit, Han asked her if she thought Daniel was behind the murder. She said she didn't know 100%, but she didn't think so. And then Jennifer asked her dad for $1,200. claiming it was for college tuition, but she's still not fucking going.

She's such a piece of shit. At the same day, Detective Cortis officially made Jennifer a suspect in the investigation, the prime suspect, and that makes it hard for Jennifer to be around her family. Her uncle, Jewin, is the first to confront her. Apparently, he knew the police wanted to talk to her, and he threatened to take her to the police himself if she didn't go, you know, on her own. She'd been avoiding speaking to them by claiming she needed to plan her mother's and grandfather's funeral, which she didn't.

Bick-Hopan's funeral will be held November 15th, 2010. It was a Buddhist ceremony, with the monk presiding over about a hundred mourners inside Scarborough's Ogden Chapel. Jennifer stood at the front beside her brother Felix and their mother's casket. Man, what does Felix think about this shit? That poor bastard. Police will attend as well specifically to watch Jennifer's reactions. They see her rubbing her eyes, looking at them, then rubbing her eyes again, but she can't force any tears out. According to them, she never cried. something which was confirmed by Iwa Kajuska,

Jennifer's former piano teacher. Everyone's starting to think she is behind all of this. Two days later, November 17th, surgeons remove some of the bullet fragments from Hans' face, sealed them in a bag, send them off for analysis to Canada's Center of Forensic Sciences in Toronto. Then on November 22nd, Jennifer gets a call from her victim services liaison

informing her she's to come in again and speak with the police and that there would be no getting out of it this time. Taxi comes to pick her up, delivering her to the police station where she had already been through two interrogations. In this one, however, she doesn't appear a fidgety. Instead, she curls into a fetal position, holds her face in her hands, and just starts absolutely ripping ass. I mean, haul. Just on loads in that room.

No shame, nothing. No, she didn't fart this time. But she really did fart the previous time. She was well-dressed for this interrogation, wearing black sneakers, black slacks, black vignette cardigan over a collared white shirt. This time she'll be interrogated by Detective Bill Getz. Though she was the police's primary suspect, Gets was not a homicide investigator. He was a seasoned interrogator, polygraph expert, or as he called himself, the station's truth verification expert. In this interview, Jennifer will describe her childhood how little time there

was for anything other than school, competitive skating and piano lessons, how her parents constantly compared her often negatively to her classmates, teammates, and cousins. They seem to think that she was smart, even though Jennifer didn't think of herself as academically talented, and they refused to accept that for an answer as to why she underperformed. Then she said, Daniel got involved, and after their relationship was discovered, she chose her family over him but lost all her autonomy. When he moved on, she felt worthless. Suddenly the regrets piled up that she hadn't gone to school, that her friends were moving on with her lives, that she didn't know what the fuck she was doing. This first led to cutting,

she said, then to a failed suicide attempt. Gets took in all of this, homely. He didn't really care about any one piece of information in particular. He was just trying to gain her trust. And when he felt he had it, he hit her with an onslaught of questions. Why did they leave her alive? What were the denominations of bills that she gave the killers? How big was the stack? If they touched the doorknob to her bedroom, as she said, there would be fingerprints there, right? Most importantly, are you telling the truth? After telling her her, her story did not add up. He offered her a way out. He said that he knew she had had a hard life. He said that what she had went through, you know, amounted to abuse.

And he offered her a chance to confess because he knew she had something to do with the shootings. There's no question about it. The recording shows him saying, the only question right now is, are you going to keep making mistakes? Just before the three-hour mark. After about 45 minutes of Gets droning on in this vein, Jennifer starts to crack. And she utters a muffled, inaudible sentence. then she repeats it this time loud enough for Gets in the audio system to pick it up what happens to me she ends up repeating this multiple times what happens to me but Gets can't answer not in a definitive way still with a seasoned investigators calm he tells her that they can work on it one step at a time and then Jennifer says the first thing that indicates her involvement I wanted it to stop she says and then when Gets asks her if she wishes she could take it all back she finally says yes Around three hours and 14 minutes in,

she whispers that she wished they had taken her. Huh? Okay, buckle up. This is not her confessing. This is a brand new story. This is more bullshit. Bullshit Jennifer will quickly learn is way harder to sell to cops who literally listened to bullshit for a living

than it was to her parents who actually loved her and had emotional reasons for wanting to believe her lies. In this new version, Jennifer claims that she was such a disappointment, a suicide attempt that even failed that she had hired a group of hitmen to take her out. Uh-huh.

She would go on to explain that she set the plot up with a guy named Homeboy. According to her, the job would cost $2,000. The price she and Homeboy agreed on about two months before the shooting. If she wanted to be killed, Homeboy said she would have the money when they got there. Gets, thinking they were finally getting somewhere now, is now incredibly pissed off. But Jennifer won't let it go. She explains how she made the decision to go through with an, after her dad accused her of seeing Daniel when she hadn't,

even when Gets challenges her directly, saying that he is positive, this is not what happened. She maintains that this is the truth. But that won't keep gets from now arresting her for murder, attempted murder, and conspiracy to commit murder. Man, she thought she was trapped before. Her new parents, jail and prison officials, going to be a little bit more strict than her parents ever were.

November 23, 2010, television crews, newspaper reporters, and radio journalists, all with microphones and hands, crowd into York police headquarters and Newmarket for a press conference. News of Jennifer's arrest was being broadcast on news channels across the city, province, and country, but while the police had Jennifer and Custy, there were still three people that the police needed to find, the actual killers. All they knew was the men's physical descriptions and that they had driven a late model ACRA. Meanwhile, a mere six hours after the press conference, just after midnight

on November 23rd, one of those hired killers, Eric Carrey called another Lentford Crawford. records were later revealed that when Lentford finished his shift at midnight, hours afterward of Jennifer's arrest hit the street. He ventured to the suburb of Mississauga before heading to Daniel's house in Ajax City 45 minutes east of Toronto. When he arrived around 2 a.m., his phone and Daniel's phone were in the same location for about 40 minutes. About 12 hours later, phone records show Lentford goes back to Ajax at 2.23 p.m. Daniel's phone used in the same tower. then just before 11 p.m. Lentford's phone is in London, Ontario. Were they discussing what would happen to them if Jennifer ratted them out?

Probably. Meanwhile, two days after Jennifer's arrest, November 25th, detectives, Cordes and Cook, received a snapshot from the call logs on Jennifer's iPhone. The first thing to discover was that Jen's boyfriend, Daniel Wong, had lied to them. Despite the fact that he had told Detective Milligan, he had not spoken with Jen recently.

On November 8th alone, he'd engaged in 36 text messages and 14 separate calls with her. My God. There were also numerous other texting calls to burner phones. One had come in at 6.12 p.m., another at 8.16 p.m., which had lasted 28 seconds. Then there was another lasting a minute and 42 seconds at 9.34 p.m. Finally, a call of over three minutes at 10.05 p.m. The home invasion had started less than 10 minutes after that at 10.13 p.m.

Detectives tried to call the numbers, but nobody picked up, save for one person, Demetrius Mables, who had no fucking clue, what they were. talking about. The only thing left to do was to visit the addresses associated with the numbers, and that's where they got a break. One phone was registered to Lentford Crawford's family home in Rexdale. Lentford agreed to be interviewed by the police, as long as they let him leave in time for his shift at work. The detectives asked him about everything they could and found no connection until Lentford mentioned Daniel Wong calling him Bruce. He admitted that he might have talked to Jennifer while trying to get hold of Daniel, but denied having a conversation with her about anything

of importance. He also said he was not involved in any of way with the murder. And an alibi seemed to back him and back Daniel up. After the interview, detectives discovered that on November 8th, Lentford signed into work using the thumb scanner, remain there till midnight when his shift ended. And Daniel was at work too, so they weren't at the

actual crime scene, it seems. November 29th, investigators sat down with Andrew Montemeyer, a young-looking Filipino man, one of Jen's friends I mentioned earlier. I didn't talk to Jennifer November 8th, Andrew began, but he was lying. The detectives had proof

almost 100 texts were exchanged between the two over six hours. And now Andrew breaks. He tells them Jennifer called him that day, talking about how fed up she was with her parents, saying she felt like she was under house arrest. Then she told him she had planned a home invasion that would look like a robbery, the men would demand money, and then shoot her parents, tie her up, and leave her alive. Fucking boom. Oh, also, she'd approached him about an idea to have her parents killed back in the spring of 2010, he said.

And this aligned exactly with what police now thought. it didn't bring them any closer to the actual killers. But soon something would. Detective Cortus would discover that of the three major telecom companies in Canada. Only one, TELUS Mobility, stored all incoming and outgoing text messages for 30 days. A burner phone number registered to Peter Robeson was a TELIS phone. And police were able to get its record to the nick of time. As they expected, it gave them a treasure trove of information.

Police soon contacted two women whose numbers appeared on that phone as contacts. Georgia McQuaid, Francine Johnson. When they spoke to McQuaid, she typed the number into her phone. It came up with the name of a man she knew called Indian, but that was the only info she could provide. Francine, on the other hand, admitted that the number belonged to a man she knew by the name of David Milvogganum. We met him earlier. After running his name to the system, police discovered he was once arrested on fraud charges in Montreal.

Not a smoking gun, but not a smoking gun either. On January 6, Han Pan would mostly identify David Milvol. in a photo lineup is one of the men who had shot him and his wife. He wasn't 100% sure since he wasn't wearing his glasses when he was attacked, but it sure looked like one of the men who had assaulted him. And then more evidence came in. When the cell tower records were finally sent over, police found that on November 9th,

the Peter Robinson phone was traveling across Highway 401, which cut across the northern part of Toronto at 9.30 p.m. Before heading northbound up Highway 404 towards Richmond Hill and Markham. While en route, the person using that phone contact elected Lentford Crawford at 9.45 p.m. just after calling Jennifer Pan at 934 p.m. That meant that David Milvoganum was in communication with both Lentford and Pan. And there was something else. While reviewing surveillance footage taken from a camera located across the street from the Pan home, a sharp-eyed detective noticed that just prior to the

accurate passing by, a light and hand study was turned on. The time was 10.02 p.m. The light remained on for exactly one minute and 21 seconds, and then was switched off. Was this a signal from inside the house that everything was a go? The grainy footage didn't show the accurate driving up the road, turning at the street that runs kitty corner to the Panhome and parking out of view. In the moments prior to the gunman burst into the Panhome at 10.13 p.m., another call came into Jennifer's iPhone from the Peter Robinson phone. During this call, both phones were pinging off the tower closest to 238 Helen Avenue. Then after the three-minute and 23-second call, the Peter Robinson phone is turned off. The time

was 1009 right before the attacks. Did Jennifer give them the green light officially at this point? Like, you know, confirm it. The men, three figures, are seen running up to the house at 1013. The upstairs light comes on at 1015. The men are in the house for 14 minutes before one man runs out at 1030.

Other two exit at 1032, returning to the car, speeding off at 1033. It's fucking incredible. They have all this down to the minutes. It's so hard to get away with shit now. The video, this is, you know, some years ago now. the video then showed police arriving sirens blaring at 1038 this all shows at the phone

other than the 15 minutes following the murder was in almost constant use right at the time the car was making its way to mark him and back directly before, directly after the murder and there was one more thing someone likely David had texted afterwards that he was quote in a meeting with Kimble so who the fuck is Kimball

finding him would be like in the words of one detective finding a needle in a stack of needles luckily though they made another discovery when one of the burner phones linked to Kimball texted someone. Yo, bro, this is my new number. They asked who it was, and he didn't respond with Kimball. He responded with Snipea.

Kimball was Snipea, and we've met Snipea. Digging into leads, or digging into this, excuse me, leads these investigators to Toronto Police Sergeant Sheila Ogg, who've been looking for Snipe for over a year now, and she told them that just two weeks before they contacted her, a man by the name of Eric Carty was identified by a traffic cop. After the car, he was a passenger and was pulled over, right? That's sniper.

Beside, Cardi was his good friend, Lendford Crawford, who was issued a traffic ticket. The two men were then sent on their way. Not long after that, Eric's name would make the Royal Canadian Mount of Police's most wanted list in connection with a different murder case. With that, police were tipped off to his location, a hideout in suburban Brampton. He would escape, but left his asthma inhaler, complete with his full name behind. On January 28th, police got a tip that he was at a food call. court in a Brahmaelia city center. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that town rights, that one.

And they made their arrest. And all of this is making Jen really, really fucking nervous. On February 24th, Jennifer writes Daniel, a letter from prison, warning him about the police investigation. I really wish I could see you, uh, which really wish I could see you, at least, talk to you. I worry about you in here. How are you doing? Where you go, uh, if you are being very careful.

As you know, they are still looking into things. Daniel will be interviewed again by the police on March. 23rd, 2011. This time he'll be shown pictures of Eric and David, and he'll say that they were Lennford's friends. Maybe they'd met at the mechanic shop. Immediately afterwards, Daniel calls Lentford, not knowing that Lentford's home line has been tapped.

They won't fully incriminate themselves, but it doesn't look good. They're clearly worried about being arrested for the murderous attack on Jen's parents. Three days later, Lentford's interview doesn't go much better. He insists he didn't know anyone connected to the crime, aside from Daniel, although his phone had contact information

for all three men. So police now decide to try another way. They interviewed Tim Conti, the owner of the first phone, the Peter Robinson mobile, contacted after it was switched back on at 1046 p.m. while speeding away from the Pan Home on November 8th, Conti insisted he had nothing to do with it. He claimed he was in the back of his truck with his mistress watching a movie on a TV he bought. Okay, watching a movie on TV in the back of a truck, all right? By this time, the police feel that it's safe to move on, move in on David and Eric. really something's up with them. April 14th, David's arrested at the Jane Finch Mall without incident, charged with first-degree murder, conspiracy to commit and attempt murder. Attempted murder.

Following day, police to send on Maplehurst Correctional Complex, just west of Toronto, where Eric Cardi is being held, charged him with the same. Finally, on April 26th, Daniel Wong is arrested at work. He's still at Boston Pizza, charged with first-degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder, and attempted murder. How would they get Lentford? They'll finally get him through a man named Jeffrey Fu, who had shown up on Lentford's phone records having called him two hours after the murder. He was apparently the bridge between Daniel and Lentford. Foo would also tell him that at some point after the murder, some men came to Ajax to collect a debt from Daniel that was still owed by Jennifer Pan. Man, fucking so many people involved in all this dirty business.

And with that, Lentford will be arrested May 4th as he smoked a joint in his girlfriend's driveway. He'd be charged with first degree murder and attempted murder, and with that no further charges will follow. Now it's time for investigators to build her case. By the time the trial began, March 19th, 2014, two Crown attorneys, Jennifer Hologen, and Michelle Rumble, had worked on the Jennifer Pan case on an offer over three years, pouring over raw telephone transcripts and data from 64,000 bits of phone communication. That had so much work to try and string together a narrative

that spanned from June of 2010 to May of 2011 when Lennford Crawford was arrested. even if it seemed like a somewhat open and shut case, all defendants pleaded not guilty to the charges of first-degree murder, attempted murder, and conspiracy to commit murder, so prosecutors still had their work cut out for them. To start with, there was no forensic evidence. No DNA was found at the house. There were no recovered weapons, no bloody clothes that belonged to the killers.

There was one witness, but he had been shot in the head. The biggest issue was the narrative. After all, how do you convince a jury that a sweet-looking 24-year-old who had always done exactly what her parents asked her to do, or had at least appeared to, had one of them dead. In order to understand what happened on November 8, 2010, you have to understand the history, what happened before that. The chronology of what led to that night,

halogen would say as part of their opening statement. Jennifer would arrive in court each day looking neat and clean, despite her tired-looking clothes. After all, she had no family anymore to make sure she was properly outfitted. She certainly didn't have a hand, her dad, anymore, who took the stand early on with the Vietnamese interpreter. He would describe how just months before the murder, he had all but fulfilled his life's work.

I mean, this is so sad. He and his wife had finally paid off their $600,000 home. They'd accrued a substantial amount of money in the bank, coming a long way since showing up in Canada with nothing. He explained how he and his wife each took out $170,000 life insurance policies on their lives. If they were to die, the money, their estate, will be split 50-50 between their grown children, Jennifer and Felix. That would not only include their home, but the cars and other valuables in total about $500,000

each. They'd sat their children down and explained how it worked, including an additional policy taken out on Jennifer with Felix as the beneficiary. He described how, although he had never attended his daughter's high school or university graduations, she had spent a significant amount of time telling him how her education was playing out. She told the family she was admitted to Ryerson, and a few months after that, she left home and came back in the evening, he narrated. My wife said if she kept on like that, it would be hard for her, so Jennifer said she shared her room with a friend in downtown Toronto. My daughter said, that to become a pharmacist, she needed to be admitted to the University of Toronto.

And she told me she was admitted. So many times I wanted to ask about my daughter's study, but my wife said, don't interfere. He talked about how Jennifer would stay home Thursday and Friday nights before leaving again on Saturday, telling her family that she was doing volunteer work with sick children. Bick would transfer money into her account when she needed it. And soon, Hand began to feel like something wasn't right. Finally, everything came out into the open, all the lies. and Han told Jennifer to call off her relationship with Daniel Wong and go back to school.

She would live at home. She wasn't allowed to use the car. Jennifer had agreed, and Han thought that was the end of it. He claimed that he thought his family was very happy. After all, he said how he treated Jen was no different than how he himself had been raised. Jennifer's lawyer, Paul Cooper, now tried to discredit Hand because of the injury he had suffered, basically that he couldn't recall events correctly because of his head wound. But no one bought that.

He seemed pretty fucking clear-headed. Next up was Jen's younger brother, Felix. The tall, bookish young man told the court that he'd actually heard about the life insurance policy from his sister. She was the one who was focused on it, not his parents. He also noticeably would not look at Jennifer as she moved about through the courtroom. He clearly thought she was fucking guilty, right? Just like his dad did. Jennifer herself would take the stand on August 19th, 2014 to give her version of events. She didn't, she didn't fart. At least no one heard if she did. She probably did. She probably did some silent ones. But I don't. But I don't know.

I don't know that for sure. She told the court that she was furious with her dad for neglecting and isolating her in the summer of 2010, when she was 24 years old. Seeking out her friend's advice, Jennifer said she eventually stumbled upon Andrew Montemeyore, her old elementary school classmate. He had long had a crush on her, and she spent hours on the phone with him seeking away to get rid of these stresses in her life. But soon after she allegedly hatched a plan with Andrew's roommate, Ricardo, Rick Duncan,

in which he would shoot her father outside his work, she said. they became clear that Rick had ripped her off for the $1,500 she paid him. Despite trying to call him countless times, he was no longer answering his phone. I spoke with him over the phone to see if he'd gotten his hands on a gun a few times, she said, and he then stopped answering my phone calls. I tried calling Andrew. He said he had moved out of Rick's home. He kept making excuses for Rick.

I knew it was a sham. Both Andrew and Rick would deny that any of this ever happened. Jen said that it was this plot that kept her from withholding the truth from police during her interviews, frightened that if they found out about it, they would suspect her in the events of November 8th, of course. She said she contemplated suicide, then wanted to find another less shameful way to die, as well as one that would still provide Felix

with the money from the life insurance policy. Totally. She did what she did to protect and help her baby brother. Always looking out for baby brother. She said she hatched a plan for Homeboy to kill her, agreeing to pay him $10,000 for the self-hit, but then she changed her mind. Throughout September and October,

Jennifer's family lives improved after the pans traveled to the U.S. for a wedding, and she and her mom and her aunt went to Montreal for a weekend jaunt. Her spirits were also buoyed by an early acceptance into college and the positive attention she got from her family, but Homeboy wouldn't let her out of the contract without paying an $8,500 cancellation fee. You know, you've got to read the fine print when you're hiring a hitman. It's the hidden feats that'll kill you. She said it got, a pun not intended.

She said it got so bad that on Halloween 2010, Homeboy, his self, phone pinging off the towers closest to her house threatened to come to her home while she handed out candy to trick-or-treaters with her mom i was shocked she testified i was saying to him kids are in the area i'm handing out candy i can't step out and where do you want to meet i don't have the money i started to freak out because i thought they were coming to shoot me and kill me it was on the morning of november 8th she claimed that she received the homeboy text two after work okay will be the game time um this was not a text between plotters about the murder of her parents. It was a warning that they were coming to kill her, she said,

for not having the money. She said she called them and begged them for more time, and that every time they called after that, she pleaded with them. But then the worse happened. I admit I'm a liar, she said. I admitted I was a liar. I admitted I lied to the police and the police station,

but I was scared, she finished. I was scared of being caught in a concoction. But on November 8th, there was nothing, nothing that was supposed to be happening. When pressed by the prosecution, Jennifer simply said that her stories to the police, the many times she lied, happened because she was too frightened and frazzled

to tell the real story. I love with the fucking liars, you know, like people who lie a lot, they fall back in that. Yeah, but I was scared. I was nervous. Fuck you. Fuck, who gives a fuck?

Yeah, yeah, that's why, like, fucking decent people push through that fear and like, okay, I'm sorry, I fucked up. And I shouldn't, I mean, everybody lies. I know somebody, but it's like, but people who do this consistently and act like that's a good reason. I mean, you know,

I've fucking been nervous and lied in the past for sure. But if I was questioned about it, I wouldn't be like, well, yeah, what was I supposed to do? I had to lie. I was so scared. Okay. Now in the courtroom, nobody believes her, right? She's an omitted chronic liar. Obviously, is lying again.

Her story made no fucking sense, right? That she had a murder plot. She made one, but then regretted when one was actually carried out. That she had lied for nearly all of her adult life. But in this one instance, now she's telling the truth, right? the collective reaction from everybody's just like, get the fuck out of here. After her testimony, one of the lawyers for the defense,

Edward Sapiano, counseled for Eric Cardi, excuse me, suffered a health crisis, and it was decided that Eric's case would now be severed from the rest and given a new trial. This at least gave Paul Cooper, Jennifer's lawyer, the opportunity to refer to him as a psychopathic killer

with a bad shot, trying to pin the full plot on him, you know, because he's not there, basically. He now argued that Eric, hungry for money and unwilling to wait for Jennifer's cancellation fee, took it upon himself to rob the pan's home, then enraged, shot Han and Bick.

The other lawyers would follow suit with Peter Bodden, David Milvogunham's lawyer, arguing that David was little more than a go between for Eric and the other conspirators. Ultimately, this trial will take 10 months with the jury sequester for the four days it took to reach its verdict. I lived with daily thoughts of this crime,

said the foreman Patrick Fleming, graphic coroner photos of bullet holes through flesh, the bloody crime scenes, and the chilling testimonies. On December 13th, 2014 Jennifer Pan, Daniel Wong, David Milvogganum, and Crawford are all found guilty of first-degree murder, attempted murder, and conspiracy to commit murder, and sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. Before the jury delivered the verdict, Jennifer appeared almost upbeat, smiling and playfully picking lint off her lawyer's robes. She seemed to truly think her lies had worked, that she was going to get away with it.

When the guilty verdict was delivered, she was stunned. She looked like she was in shock and showed no emotion. but once the press had left the courtroom, she started to weep and shake uncontrollably. And she had reason to weep, right? The earliest she'd be able to get out was in 2035 at the age of 49. Daniel Milvogganum and Crawford each received the same sentence. The judge also granted two non-communication orders, one banning communication amongst the five defendants

until Cardi's trial is complete, and a second between Jennifer and her family at the latter's request, effectively preventing Jennifer from speaking to her father or brother ever again. her lawyer addressed the order in court Jennifer is open to communicating with her family if they want to They don't At the sentencing her father Han

And brother Felix both wrote victim impact statements When I lost my wife I lost my daughter at the same time Han wrote I don't feel like I have a family anymore Some say I should feel lucky to be alive But I feel like I am dead too Fucking poor bastard

Han explained how he was now unable to work due to his injuries In addition to ever present anxiety attacks Insomnia and nightmares She's in constant pain. He gave up gardening, working on his car, music. Nothing brought him joy anymore. He couldn't bear to live at home anymore.

Too many bad memories there. He was living with a relative nearby. Yet he seemed to still want a better life for Jennifer. He said, I hope my daughter, Jennifer, thinks about what has happened to her family and can become a good, honest person someday. Also said that he and his son Felix were rarely talking, and when they did, Felix didn't want to hear his sister's name being spoke. Felix, meanwhile, moved to the East Coast to find work. with a private tech company,

escaped the stigma of being a member of the Pan family. Unsurprisingly, he suffered from severe depression. He expressed zero interest in ever seen his sister again. Jennifer would be incarcerated

at the Grand Valley Institution for women in Kitchener, Ontario. In Ontario, Daniel Wong, previously held in Lindsay, was transferred to Collins Bay Institution in Kingston, while Milvogganum would serve a sentence in the Atlantic institution

in Reno, New Brunswick. Crawford would serve at, Kent Institution at Agassi, British Columbia. In the following months, Felix would request a restraining order to ban Jennifer from any further contact with him. Apparently, she kept trying to.

It was granted. She was also banned from ever contacting Daniel Wong again. Man, December of... Fucking poison. December of 2015, Eric Carty received an 18-year sentence after pleading guilty to conspiring to commit murder with eligibility for parole after nine years. But then he died in prison in 2018 at age 38.

news outlets never gave a official cause of death that I could find, only saying that he had been found dead in his cell. He previously was stabbed in prison, maybe somebody got to him again. In May of 2023, the Court of Appeal for Ontario granted an appeal by Jennifer and her three co-conspirators on the first-degree murder charge in order to new trial. In essence, the courts found that the trial judge made a legal error when instructing the jury. The jury was told to only consider two specific pathways to convict for first-degree murder

and were not allowed to consider second-degree murder or manslaughter. These are lesser included offenses, meaning there were possible verdicts that fit the facts of the case but carried lower penalties that were not considered. They did, however, uphold the convictions for the attempted murder of Han Pan, which also carried a sentence of 25 years to life for Jennifer. So it's not going to affect anything. The Supreme Court of Canada actually held the Court of Appeals decision

in April of 2025, holding a 7-2 majority opinion written by Chief Justice Richard Wagner, finally get a dick in the suck that given the evidence presented at trial a reasonable jury could have concluded that the plan

was to kill only hand. If that was true, then the killing of Bick may not have met the legal definition of first degree murder. And thus, because the jury wasn't allowed

to consider the lesser charge that the trial was unfair. So, might Jennifer get out of jail before her potential parole in 2040? No, probably not. She still hasn't taken any responsibility

for what she did, by the way. She has never admitted to hiring her mother's killers. She's such a fucking narcissist. And now let's head to the recap. Good job, soldier. You've made it back. Barely. Okay, before I recap, I didn't plan at all on jumping into another idiotic of the internet segment again, but it feels almost necessary for this episode. To begin to get my head around the case, the first thing I did before reading any of Sophie's research was to watch a 26-minute

long video titled Jennifer Pan's Revenge on her Tiger Parents, posted by the truth. True Crime News YouTube channel on February 8th, 2019, has over 22.5 million views. That shocked me. That's a lot for any true crime content. What shocked me more was the overall point of view of the 45,000 plus commenters underneath. So many people seem to take Jennifer's side in this story. Basically, because her parents were authoritarian hard asses. They seem to think that they deserve to get fucking shot. That Jennifer, if she is a monster, is a monster of their creation and therefore no one should feel sorry for them. I'm curious what you think about this perspective. I'm curious what you think of comments made by some people that I think are idiots of

the internet. At Tulse, Servac 1714, posted the following. I'm reading her story and the more I read it, the more I see her as the victim. The dad was an asshole who micromanaged everything and put an enormous amount of academic pressure on her, also banned her from dating her hanging out with friends. And he was so harsh on her regarding her grades that she went to extreme lengths to forge them. I can't really blame her for snapping, given how horrible he was. You can't blame her for snapping? She hired Hitman to kill both her fucking parents so she could get their life insurance money, savings, and house. When she's 24 years old and is still living with them and off of them, he never beat her, never molested her. Was he a dick? Yeah, probably. But was him wanting her to excel

really so terrible. He deserved a bullet to the head. That's a fucking wild take to me. First reply to that post comes from at EXE, Kazamon 20, who wrote, Tiger Parents should face jail time. Why on earth would they think it's a good method

when it's simply emotional and psychological abuse towards their child? Look, vid, is a prime example. Okay, and then at now, and then at Mandarin 4. 157 posted the following, which got 1,200 likes. Honestly, knowing how horrendous these kinds of parents can be, I cannot imagine what kind of state her psyche was in. And people saying she's a psychopath because she kept asking what was going to happen to her?

Well, maybe no one other than herself ever cared about her. I'm not saying I'm accusing what she did, but I'm also not too quick to condemn her either. You can't condemn her for what she did? I can. I fucking can. Easy. Quick decision. being an overbearing parent does not equate to deserving of being murdered At Kiwi peanut loves post

It's gotten 200 likes Apple didn't far fall from the tree They killed her emotionally They killed her emotionally She killed them physically Oh totally It's just fucking tomato tomorrow It's you know

Even Steven You know the age got equal punishment At Zanezilla 7241 Posted something that got 3,800 likes A child not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth

for fuck sake. That is so melodramatic in this case. And there are so many other comments like these. And I feel like all of them, literally all of them, have been left by people who have never raised kids. I'm guessing most of these people leaving these comments are kids themselves, living off their fucking parents right now. In contrast to all that, at Gunner Saya, posted the following and it only got six likes.

She's 25. She could have just left. Seriously. Why waste your parents? Lame, take Gunner, you fucking boomer. How dare you advocate? She should have taken, you know, responsibility for her own life and not just play the victim. Such a out of touch old unc doesn't understand how hard it is to be a kid, right? How hard is to have parents who want you to work hard in life?

In addition to a lot of the comments I find idiotic, I will say a lot of funny people in this comment section as well. At X. Torres posted, this is a true Asian dad coming back from the dead and coma to make your life miserable. at Katori posted her father after waking from coma Even your hit men were below average What a disappointment And then finally at Raver's fantasy posted Dad You'll be able to see him when I'm dead

Get shot in the face Dad did I stutter Dark dark but I did laugh Again curious what you think Did her parents have it coming Or is Jennifer a cold-hearted selfish brat who was too cowardly to try and go make it out on her own, which, you know, both of her parents had already done before her.

It's all the internet. Jennifer Pan, if nothing else, I hope this story makes you feel pretty damn good as a kid. As a kid, you know? Like, you haven't fucked up that badly in your parents' eyes if you haven't put out a hit on him. Born in 1986, Jennifer Pan grew up in Markham, Ontario was the daughter of Chinese immigrants from Vietnam, Bikha, and Hui, Hanpah.

Her parents were highly controlling, held very strict expectations for her, emphasizing academic excellence and professional success. From a young age, she was pressured to achieve perfect grades, pursue a career medicine. This strict upbringing combined with her parents' constant monitoring and limited tolerance for social freedom, created a high-pressure environment for sure. Not only was failure, not tolerated, but expressing dismay over once failure was seen as shameful as well. By high school, Jennifer began to lie to her parents about her achievements and her daily activities. She fabricated report cards, created fake university acceptance letters,

even faked her own graduation ceremony. She told her parents she was attending Ryerson University, later the University of Toronto, though in reality she would never graduate high school, or she hadn't, at that point, and was either working alongside her secret boyfriend, Daniel Wong at Boston Pizza, or at a cafe, or giving piano lessons.

On November 8th, 2010, what seemed at first like a random home invasion found Bick Ha Pan murdered execution style while Hway Hanpan survived with significant injuries. Police found it odd that the so-called robbers had resorted to such extreme violence. Why hadn't they brought a lock pick? Why hadn't they taken some easy-to-take loot? Why hadn't they looked at the safe?

It was in the closet. Why did they just tie up Jennifer the third witness but not hurt her at all? Why didn't they bring stuff to tie someone up? So many questions. Over the course of the investigation, police kept coming back. to Jennifer. She was jumping interrogations and flatulent, I might add. She was, you know, couldn't keep her story straight about what happened or what the assailants wanted, claimed not to know anything about the attack, but clearly did. In fact, she had orchestrated the entire thing.

She was completely free while her parents were assaulted, led down to the basement, shot in their heads. So rest easy. That no matter how strict your parents are, you know, or were, you probably didn't pull a Jennifer pan. On the other hand, it's important to acknowledge that Jennifer's parents weren't simply strict. They had created a world where status was the most important form of currency. You know, gain status and you gain a meaningful place in the family, lose it, and you might be forced out. As Amy Chihuah would probably argue, this is likely never the goal of the tiger parent who envisions themselves and their child in a dance of mutual sacrifice and gain. The child sacrifices autonomy, gains important life skills, while the parent sacrifices resources,

gains a devoted family member. Think of it like this. In Amy Chihuah's world, the parent-child exchange is like a market transaction. in capitalism. You exchange something, money, effort, autonomy, for something else, a value, right? Goods, skills, status. Both sides gain something measurable. The system works if the currency retains value. On the other hand, you can think of the pans like a totalitarian government. Currency or status is handed out by an authoritarian figure. The rules can change without warning, and no matter how much the child complies, the reward may remain unattainable or devalued. In Jennifer Pan's case, the currency of status got degraded until that

was worthless. After all, why aim for status and a family you despise? Why try to impress people who will never be impressed with you? And this is not to say that the pans deserve their fates at all. This is only to say that parenting is fucking hard. It would be so much easier if it were just about being a hard ass to your kids until they turned into good people or being soft and lenient and let them do whatever they want and have them be good people. It would be easier if parenting was a one-size fits all situation and you just had to memorize the totally agreed upon rules for everybody. But it's definitely not. And a method that looks reasonable from one perspective stops looking reasonable when you look at it in another way. A method that looks unreasonable might seem reasonable when you

consider the particular needs of the child. You should want to raise successful children, but also happy children. And if those children disagree with you once they turn 18, you should let them make their own ways, shouldn't you? And if you don't like the ways of your parents, once you're an adult, you should go your own way, shouldn't you? Forge your own path? Not easy but not impossible either. outside of rare circumstances, it's a better choice than to keep accepting the help of people you feel are abusive, bitching about how terrible they are while not doing shit to take ownership of your life and move on. Time now for the takeaways.

Time shock. Top five takeaways. Number one on November 8, 2010. Three mass assailants enter Jennifer Pan's family home on Helen Avenue. They proceeded to demand money from the pans who didn't keep money in the house. then Han and Bick, Jennifer's parents, were taken down to the basement and shot. Jennifer's 911 call to the police reported that she had been tied up upstairs, although her father would recall that she had moved around the house freely during the attack.

While Jennifer's story later shifted, she said she tried to plan the attack as a sort of suicide by hitman. Courts ultimately ruled that she was a fucking terrible liar. She was a terrible, fucking farty liar that she had orchestrated the murder of her mom, and attempted murder of her dad, providing the assailants with info about the family's schedule, even unlocking the door for them to enter. She told an extreme lie, and it wasn't the first time she had lied. Number two, beginning in high school, Pan began to fabricate an elaborate web of lies, including forging report cards, creating fake university acceptance letters, and inventing jobs,

falsely telling her parents she was attending Ryerson University and later the University of Toronto. Even told them she was volunteering at a lab that tested for kids' blood. Why did Jennifer lie about all that? Well, one common explanation is number three. The Chinese tiger parent is a controversial parenting strategy associated with intense expectations of academic and professional achievement, long hours spent on prescribed extracurriculars like practicing musical instruments, and obedience to parents' wishes over their own. Though it's been a subject of controversy in the West in the past two decades or so, it actually traces its roots back to Confucius, and many institutions in China and other similarly oriented cultures actually support this. like schools posting kids grades publicly. In the U.S. and Canada, this can be considered cruel, even abusive,

and indeed some think that the pants went too far in their treatment of Jennifer when they picked her up at the end of school each day and closely monitored her extracurricular activities. She was never allowed to date or go to dances. On the other hand, plenty of kids have strict parents, maybe even tiger parents, and don't kill them. Number four, Jennifer's relationship with Daniel Wong seemed to push her over the edge. Through him, she experienced a sense of independence from her parents' strict control, exploring a life outside the rules.

Reports to police indicated she even dabbled in a small, informal amount of drug dealing, an easy and exciting life to a girl who had always been told to study and work hard to make their money, or her money. But beyond the activities themselves, Wong offered her emotional validation, showing that she could be valued and appreciated, even when she was not meeting her parents' high expectations. A good thing for a partner to do. But Jennifer, as she always did, took it too far.

Number five, new info. Let's talk a bit more about Rexdale. 2013, Rexdale made headlines again when former Toronto mayor Rob Ford became the center of a major news story. I remember this. Ford, adored by many in the community, was photographed outside a neighborhood crack house,

and a video later surfaced showing him smoking some crack. Ford admitted to trying crack cocaine quote one time, but it's not being addicted, despite a history of publicly intoxicated or aggressive behavior, including shouting at reporters, heckling city staff, and making controversial statements at public events. Come on, dude.

Oh, you just have. Happen to have gotten caught on video smoking crack? The one only time you smoked crack? Uh-huh. Yeah, and Bill Clinton only smoked marijuana once or twice and never inhaled. You fuck out of here. Although the recalls for his resignation in the city council stripped him of some powers, Ford remained mayor until 2014,

even running a controversial re-election campaign while dealing with health issues. Two years later, he sadly died of an aggressive form of cancer, passing away on March 22nd, 2016. So rest in peace, Rob Ford. I hope wherever you are, you can still smoke. some crack. I hope you can smoke all the crack you want and suffer zero negative consequences. How cool will the afterlife be if it was full of drugs and no one ever OD'd, got arrested, or ruined their afterlife in any way?

Time suck. Top five takeaways. How to fail at murder and life. The Jennifer Pan's story has been sucked. Thank you to the bad magic productions team for help of making time suck. Thanks to Queen of Bad Magic, Lindsay Cummins. Thanks to Logan Keith. in the episode designing merch for the store at bad magic productions.com. Thank you to Sophie Evans for her awesome research. Also thank you to the all seen eyes moderating the cult of the curious private Facebook page, the mod squad for making sure Discord keeps running smooth,

and everybody over on the Time Sucks subreddit and Bad Magic subreddit. And now let's head on over to this week's Time Sucker Updates. Get your Time Sucker updates. Our first message today from those sand. to Bo Jengles at Timesug Podcast.com comes from marvelous meat sack Matt Baker, who's sending the following with a subject line, following message,

the subject line of PSA for science. Hey, Colt, felt compelled to message about a conversation that I have had consistently at work and in my personal life and thought I would share my thoughts in case anyone needed to hear them. I work at a clinic

where we get an incredible mix of economic levels, education levels, and, to be brutally honest, intellect levels. Before that, I survived the trenches that COVID threw at us and was radicalized against the American healthcare system while working from within. It does some good, but it doesn't do what it was designed to do other than make money. The one constant I lean on is science.

Science is the most powerful tool we have against nature and its desire to kill us all. That's a great sense. The most misunderstood part of science is its ability to be self-correcting. There's nothing scientists love more than to dunk on other scientists who get shit wrong, and it's important that it continues to happen. This is the only way we get stuff correct and fix the imperfections over time. My colleagues and I have a big concern now that it seems like science is under attack, not scrutiny, not fact-checking, but pure attack.

Science is not biased when used correctly. It is not political. Science can be best described as the attempt to put a saddle on the world around us. We saw what happened to science during COVID with how often we had to correct what we knew and how often we had to answer questions about everything we did. Nothing was without scrutiny, and everyone thought the medical world was just going to lie about everything going on. Maybe we did, maybe we didn't, but we did the best with the information we had.

For the first time, the scientific method was out on display in real time for people who didn't understand it in middle school. Here's my beef. If I have a problem with my plumbing, I call a plumber. If I have a problem with my air conditioning, I call the AC guy. If I have a problem with my heart or my kidneys, I don't get on YouTube to find a spiritual cleanser who offers to align my chakras if I subscribe. I guess that's all the venting I had in me, but I wanted to say huge things for reminding

me constantly that critical thinkers exist and that being right never taught me anything. Here's to a year of being wrong in the best ways, sincerely Matt. Oh man, thanks, Matt. So many good things there. Love your analogy at the end there. That's my favorite part. I've used a similar analogy in my personal life many times for years. Yeah, if I have a problem with some lights on my house, I'm going to call an electrician.

And if I have a medical problem, I'm going to go to a doctor, not someone. with no formal education in science who gets most of their scientific quote unquote information from fucking Facebook, Reddit, and 4chan. Why does that shit happen? For so many reasons. The answer is complex. But there is a pretty simple answer that sums up the gist of it, I think. Good old-fashioned laziness, ignorance, and arrogance is why some people critique science so,

so hard and go these alternate weird routes. You have to use your brain a little bit to understand why a formal, you know, education is important, to understand how science actually works on some level. That takes time and applied effort. You have to employ some level of humility to accept that somebody who did better in school than you ever did in all likelihood, studied longer and harder than you ever did,

does actually know more about you in their field of expertise, probably a fucking lot more. And you have to not be educated enough to understand the importance of education overall. Unfortunately, if you're really ignorant, you're too ignorant to understand how ignorant you are. And therefore, you feel no need to further

educate yourself and you think you got it all fucking figured out. Thank you Dunning Kruger effect. A cognitive bias for people with low ability in a specific area overestimate their competence, while experts often underestimate theirs because the skills needed to recognize competence are the same skills needed to perform well. That answer wasn't quite as simplified as I had hoped. It was the best I can do. The biggest problem in America right now, by far, my opinion, is widespread ignorance. Deep, deep, entrenched ignorance. putting on my tinfoil hat now, I don't think the powers that be

want us to get smarter. An ignorant population is much easier to manipulate and control than an educated one, right? Simple slogans without fucking evidence, oh, that sells to the ignorant crowd. I wish, and they fucking know that, I wish I truly knew how to turn around

trust in science and trust in expertise, education, and actual knowledge in general in this country. It's something that has literally kept me up fucking some nights worrying about it. The only solution I can think of is for all of us who do understand the problem and that the solution is education

and respect and trust for knowledge gains through the scientific method is to keep being the change we want to see in the world. Keep promoting science, keep promoting empirically gained, peer-reviewed knowledge. And I don't know, maybe also hope or keep hoping that many of our mainstream journalists

and politicians who have completely sold their souls to corporate greed and or lust for power and don't have an ounce of integrity in their grifting bodies, maybe we keep hoping they just, choking a bag of fucking dicks and die. Speaking of politicians, our next message comes from

hard truth bringing sack Curtis, who writes in with a subject line of, I have bad news for you, Suckmeister. Curtis here. New spaces are here, long-time listener, thank you for supporting, commenting on episode 47, where you said you were shocked about what is considered to be political these days.

Well, I got sad news. Man is by nature a political animal. He who is unable to live in society or has no need because he is sufficient for himself must be either a beast or a god. That's Aristotle, bro. None of us are beasts or gods. Life is political. And stepping back from that just isn't possible, especially for someone in the public eye like yourself. If you hold an opinion on whether water is wet or the sky is blue, it's political. Sorry about it, but if you're going to be honest with yourself and the community

you've built, you've got to own that shit. I personally skewed to the left pretty hard, and we agree a lot of stuff, but we disagree on a bunch of things, and I still love you with my whole heart. I think that's the beauty of being team meat stack rather than team red or team blue. I feel like true members of the cult of the curious don't automatically react hatefully to anything that doesn't fit our worldview.

Rather, we approach such a disparity with the intention of understanding it. We're curious after all, right? Anyway, three out of five stars and all that horseshit. Also, not sorry for the length or girth, you can take it. Just relax your throat and keep sighing. Uh, Chris. Thanks, Curtis. You know what?

Yeah, you're fucking right. You're right. This is just the way it is. Politics are everywhere. It's unavoidable. Even if I don't often shit on politicians individually by name, you can figure out pretty quickly where I stand on various political issues. So I shouldn't stress out about it.

I should just accept it as part of life. Ignore those who think I'm being more political lately. I don't think I am. I still hold the same overall values, overall values I have held for years. But the landscape around me has changed quite a bit since this podcast started. And so my views are now interpreted up very differently than they were years ago. And that it is what it is. You know, I got to just keep being me.

Work on caring less and less about those who have a problem with that. Which I will say does get a little easier as you get older. It is true, a lot of people say in my experience, you just give less fucks with each passing year about stuff he should have never given a fuck about to begin with. And now one more from Super Sack, Holly Davidson, who wrote in the subject line of latest episode in year-end wrapup. Hey Dan, just listen to your suck on Chris Gardner in the year-end wrap-up. I just want to say thank you immensely for your inspiring choice of story and your honest and thought-provoking take and all the 2025 nonsense. This episode resonated with me and realizing why my husband and I are so self-reliant.

Growing up, we were both raised by destitute single mothers who had to scrap their way through life, not unlike many, most Americans now. But they did have parents who could bail them out of crises from time to time. For our generation, however, our parents are still scraping and they can't bail us out. And actually, oftentimes, we find ourselves giving and giving and giving to help them out. Additionally, and frustratingly, we had to take out so much student loan debt because we fell through the cracks of financial aid. Parents make too much money on paper to qualify, but have too much debt to not be able to pay for anything. To get our bachelor's degrees, the first and both of our families. We've had to learn to take care of ourselves because the cavalry ain't coming, period.

Oh, man, yeah. Now my husband and I with our two kids bought a farm. We fix our cars ourselves, mend the fences, make things and repair things by hand, take care of the horses and chickens and sub-zero wind chills while we both work full-time jobs to break the generational curse. We try to give our kids a better understanding of how to be intentional with finances and mental health, how to set healthy boundaries, how to work hard, and in general be kind, beautiful people, because the world needs more of that. Oh, it fucking sure does.

I said a hearty, a fucking man when you talked about cutting out the social media. and the doom scrolling because it nearly ruined my mental health that I've worked so hard to get back over the last few years after three mental health hospital stays. I've had to cut out people and just stop with the socials. And I've learned to not insert myself in my differing opinions in the political echo chambers that are every family gathering.

It is better for my well-being to just walk away from people who don't want to hear anyone else's opposing viewpoint. You're right when you say, everything anymore is politicized when it doesn't need to be. Listen to you talk about how proud you are of your kids and that you tell them so inspired me to do the same with my kids when I got home from work today. I'm so damn proud of them.

And I can't wait to see the amazing meat sacks. They're going to be in the future. Feel free to edit my ramblings if you choose to read this on air. So, so rambling, my bad. But I just want you to know you've got at least one badass bitch in your corner. Cheers to the year to come. Keep up the great work from the frigid, treeless prairie of fuck. Yeah.

Of South Dakota, Holly. Holly, no editing was done. No editing needed, you badass bitch. And you really are. Man, good on you for busting your fucking ass. You and your husband to get where you've gotten. and for clearly loving your kids as hard as you do. Yeah, and as far as walking away from political conversations at family gatherings, yeah, no, I get it.

You know, I'm trying to get better. I'm always working on something. I'm trying to get better about picking my battles. You know, if I think I can change somebody's opinion, well, I'll share something, you know. If someone says something that really offends me, you know, I'll push back. If I think they're very, very wrong, I might try and correct them sometimes. But other times, I do think, what the fuck am I doing? Nothing I'm going to say is going to change the mind of this, you know, like cousin or uncle.

I see once or twice a year at most anyway. Sometimes it is actually okay just to walk away and disengage. It doesn't mean you don't care. Doesn't mean you're not trying to make the world a better place according to your own perspective. It just means you don't have to be in fucking battle mode all the time. What's that saying? You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

So much truth there. I fucked that one up a lot. There's a hard one for me to follow by try. You know, going off on somebody with a different viewpoint, it does rarely get them to change their minds my experience as satisfying is it can be to yell at somebody. Keep being a satisfying feeling. You know what I mean?

Keep being a solid sack, Holly. Keep embodying the values you'd like to see in others. Keep working hard. I'm rooting for you. I'm rooting for you to not have to work so hard soon. Maybe enjoy the fruits of your labors. Keep loving your kids with all your heart. Teach them whatever you can to help them be the best people that can be.

The world does, like you say, need more people like that. Hail Nimrod. Next time, suckers, I need a net. Thank you for listening to another Bad Magic Productions podcast. Be sure in rate and reviewed time suck if you haven't already. Don't hire Hitmen to kill your parents while you still live in their fucking home and are financially dependent on them at the age of 24 years old this week. You don't like their rules?

Dedicate yourself to work in whatever jobs you can get to save enough money to move out and live by your own rules, you fucking bum. And keep on sucking. You need it. And Magic Productions Okay, how about a few more comments From the same video I pulled comments from For the idiots of the internet

Now At Palmer Eldridge posted I hope all parents are watching this All caps very carefully Okay, all right, easy fucking drama At remissory posted I think that's pretty funny

Jennifer Pan Quote I'm a survivor victim hand pan quote uno reverse okay that was well played at sen sen 4161 posted strict parenting is terrible parenting I heard a nice saying once the tighter you grip the soap

the further it'll project away from you I hadn't heard that one but I I like the sentiment there I like that one it could be worded a little differently but I like the sentiment at 2D 312 posted you know what they say strict parents make great liars okay I actually love that saying I had not heard that.

Want your kids to lie? Or don't want them to lie, rather? Well, don't give them, you know, tremendous incentive to do so. And finally, at Joseph M-D-Fee-4-Z, got extra creative, went full Dr. Seuss mode when they posted, Hand-Pan-Pan-Can-Stand-Dan. Hand-Pan ban-Dan from the Pan-Klan.

Pan-Klan. Oh, my God, I'm going to start over. Hand-Pan, it's like a tongue-twister. Can't Stand Dan. hand pan bandan from the pan clan plan well done oh oh god sorry about it's oh i don't want to end on that note oh oh oh oh dude okay all right i'm out of here