Timesuck with Dan Cummins - 524 - Bible John: Glasgow's Dancing Killer

Episode Date: September 14, 2026

In late 1960s Glasgow, three women went out dancing at the legendary Barrowland Ballroom.... and never made it home alive. Their murders were linked to a mysterious stranger who became known as Bible John. Decades later, his identity remains one of Scotland’s most haunting unsolved mysteries, surrounded by disputed suspects, questionable police work, and allegations that the truth may have been buried on purpose...Merch and more: www.badmagicproductions.com Timesuck Discord! https://discord.gg/tqzH89vWant to join the Cult of the Curious PrivateFacebook Group? Go directly to Facebook and search for "Cult of the Curious" to locate whatever happens to be our most current page :)For all merch-related questions/problems: [e-mail] (copy and paste)Please rate and subscribe on Apple Podcasts and elsewhere and follow the suck on social media!! @timesuckpodcast on IG and http://www.facebook.com/timesuckpodcastWanna become a Space Lizard? Click here: https://www.patreon.com/timesuckpodcast.Sign up through Patreon, and for $5 a month, you get access to the entire Secret Suck catalog (295 episodes) PLUS the entire catalog of Timesuck, AD FREE. You'll also get 20% off of all regular Timesuck merch PLUS access to exclusive Space Lizard merch. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Bible John. That is the intriguing, upsetting name of an unidentified serial killer, believed to have murdered three women between 1968 and 1969 in Glasgow, Scotland. Their names were Patricia Docker, Jemima McDonald's, and Helen Patak. All three were mothers, poor working-class mothers, living in rough and rugged neighborhoods in an increasingly economically depressed city that was hemorrhaging as population and drowning in urban decay and violent crime. They'd gone out for a night of dancing to escape their troubles for a few hours of carefree fun at the Barreland Ballroom, one of the most popular dance halls in the city. But instead of an escape, they would find the worst and last trouble of their lives. They were brutally beaten, raped and strangled before

their bodies were left in dark corners of the city, very near their homes, and two of the three victims were last seen with a mysterious young man at the Barreland, believed to have been Bible John. The Bible John killings led to one of the most extensive manhunts in Scotty. criminal history. It was also the first time in Scotland in which the Crown Office authorized the publication of a composite drawing of a murder suspect. But despite a DNA sample in police efforts, Bible John would never be caught. And that very well may be because the police didn't want him to be caught. This week, we will cover the anonymous, escapist, and scandalous at times dance hall culture of the late 60s in Glasgow, the details of the three murders and ensuing police

investigation and what we know about Bible John and also a list of potential suspects. It includes a few serial killers in another true crime. UK, how the hell does anyone outside of Glasgow ever understand anyone speaking in a thick Glasgow accent edition of TimeSuck? This is Michael McDonald and you're listening to TimeSuck. You're listening to TimeSuck. Well, happy Monday and welcome or welcome back, of course, to the Cold of the curious

I'm Dan Cummins. Dip suck. Suckhead. Sad boy. Still waiting on my Mary Kay Pink Cadillac. I'd take a pink Hyundai at this point. Even a pink e-bike. Also still waiting for a peptide that will allow my DNA to perpetually repair itself.

Stop fucking around, lazy longevity scientist. You're killing us. You're literally killing us. By not cracking the immortality code. And that is super annoying. And just, it's not fucking cool. And also, you are listening to Time Suck. Hail Nimrod, Hail Lucifina, praise be to Good Boy Bojangles, and Glory B to Triple M.

It'll almost be the 10-year anniversary of TimeSuck when this comes out for everybody on the main feed on September 14th. TimeSuck turns 10 on the 18th. Wow. We have some really cool 10-year anniversary merch that Logan designed in the store at bad magic productions.com. And just huge thanks to anybody who is still around, still enjoying the show. After so many episodes, it means a lot. I had big dreams when this run began, of course, like we all do, when you start projects. What unfolded just so exceeded them in basically every way.

And I feel tremendously grateful. A couple announcements and then showbies. This month, to support our neighbors in Spokane, affected by the recent devastating fires, we are donating to Big Table Spokane. You know, losing everything when you are part of the service industry where you have to force that smile back on in order to get back to work, it just seems especially brutal. 69% of hospitality workers don't make enough

to make ends meet already. And when you add tragedy on top of that, the impact of their lives just, you know, hits extra hard. Not sure how much we will be donating at this time because we will be collecting even more support for Bigtable Spokane at our summer camp. And I'm recording this just a little bit ahead.

All tips given to the bartenders will be donated, which is amazing. If you would like to learn more about what Big Table does to support those in the search service industry, you can visit bigtable.org. And then one more thing, the bad magic street team, 2026 is almost here. Monday, September 21st, 2026. At noon Pacific time, these stickers will go live on our website, bad magic productions.com.

The last six rounds have been an absolute blast. Thanks so much for slapping these stickers, literally all around the world. We love receiving email, social media tags, you know, showing off these stickers years later. Once again, we are giving away a $200 merch credit for those, you know, for the person we choose to be the winner for slapping stickers around your neck of the woods or wherever you're traveling stickers are free but there will only be 500 sticker packs uh sticker packs available first come for serve and once they're gone that's it uh one sticker pack per person once you receive your stickers all you have to do is slap them all over the place snap a pick of where you put

them then post that pick on instagram or facebook both use the hashtag at uh bad at use the hashtag hashtag bad magic street team and then that's it and we'll be watching uh the winter will be announced monday november 2nd on socials and on the shows we record ahead of time though so uh well whenever we can uh so our personal announcement might be delayed uh so please keep an eye on socials that is how we will reach out to you if we cannot find your email attached to your sticker order and you know the goal is to have fun don't do anything stupid wink but for real be careful anyways let's Keep spreading the love community that is bad magic and legal disclaimer. Bad magic will not be held liable for any misplaced or illegally placed stickers,

even if said placement is super fucking funny. Please use discretion and be smart. September 21st, 2026, noon Pacific time, when the stickers go live at bad magic productions.com. And now with that further adieu, Bible John. I'm going to start things off with an overview today of, well, how you are Bible John, you listening right now your Bible John and I'm gonna fucking prove it finally I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna by the time you know by the time this episode is done you're gonna be arrested you're gonna be charged with three murders and then I'm gonna come visit you while you're in jail being held waiting trial and you might be like this is absurd I was born years after the crimes occurred I've never even been to Europe and then I'm gonna say something like guards hit him and they're gonna walk over and they're gonna punch you in the fucking face and I'm gonna be like oh shit God Damn, that was a good one.

Woo, that was harder than I expected. I saw blood fly out of their mouth. Oh, my God, it made me feel weak in the knees. That was awesome. And then you might be like, him, I'm a woman. I'm not even the gender of the suspect. And then I'm going to pull one finger. I'm going to slide it across my throat while I look behind you, like look ominously behind you.

And you're going to look back and you're going to see the scariest motherfucker you've ever seen in your whole life. And they're going to be staring at me. Then they're going to nod their head. And then they're going to look at you with a lot of murder in their heart. and then you're going to look back at me and I'm going to mouth, do it. Do kill him. Kill him tonight.

And then I'm going to unsip my pants and I'm going to pull just my balls out. Only the balls, no dick. And you're going to forget about being scared that you're going to be murdered that night for just like a couple seconds and be confused and grossed out and you're going to mouth something like,

why, what? And then I'm going to say, because I think it's funny, okay? Then I'm going to kiss the glass and I'm going to mouth, I love you, Jack, I'm so cold. And you're going to wonder what movie that's from. And I'm not going to fucking tell you.

Okay? That's how the first. fuck this shit's getting kicked off today and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it. For real now. That was fun for me. Gonna start off by letting you know the Bible John's murders affected the city of Glasgow, how they affected it at the time of the murders. Then I'm going to share a timeline of the known murders and then a list of popular suspects.

I wish I was doing another thing though. The other thing sounds more fun that I said up front. Then I'm going to share a few recap words, then the takeaways. And then I don't know, maybe you will be arrested. But what I'm not going to do, what I'm not going to do, is say, okay, like a bunch of times, because I'm actually starting to worry that if I keep that up much longer,

it is going to be just how I talk for the rest of my life. I have been fighting the urge to say it fucking constantly lately and it's super annoying. It's a sickness. It's a disease. The evening times,

now known as the Glasgow Times, reported in a 1989 article compared with psychotic killers like Peter Sutcliffe and Dennis Nielsen, the activities of Bible John seem almost insignificant. He does not even rate a mention in present-day studies

of murders and murderers. But in the 21 years since the first murder, this nameless, faceless killer has cast a shadow over the city. Even now, his identity is debated by those who remember the fear and hysteria of all those years ago. Before moving on, we covered both Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, and Dennis Nielsen, who I referred to as the UK's Jeffrey Dahmer on TimeSug previously if you are curious and want to check them out. Man, Dennis Nielsen, especially memorable, so fucking weird. This is the guy who he blamed being a murderous necrophiliac partially on his mom and grandmom, not bathing him enough when he was an infant.

This is the guy who would pretend to pass out when he was in the military, hoping that a fellow soldier would then see him passed out, pick him up, assuming he was unconscious, carry him off somewhere and fucking dittle him. This is the guy who would position his naked body in front of a mirror so that he couldn't see his face in his reflection, but everything else, and then he would jerk off while pretend. that somebody else was sexually assaulting him. Truly one of the craziest motherfuckers we've ever covered. Anyway, over three decades after that Glasgow Times article,

The Shadow of Bible John and criticisms of the police investigation at a trying and failing to catch him still loom over Glasgow. Author Paul Harrison, historian and retired police officer, wrote in his 2013 book, Dancing with the Devil, the Bible John murders. For many people, Bible John epitomizes absolute evil. And the fact that his crimes remain unsolved adds to the the fear that still permeates through the Glasgow streets he once walked and killed, or where he

once walked and killed. According to Harrison, by 1967, Glasgow had a reputation for its tough and deadly street life. Gangsters like Walter Norville, they ruled the city. In a chance meeting with him, he stated, much of the crime committed in the 1960s was through need to put food on the table for my family. You did what you had to survive. Statistically, Glasgow became the most violent city in Britain with the number of violent crimes reported to the police standing at a then record of 1,465 in a 12-month period. This constituted almost 40% of all violent crime across the entirety of Scotland.

Yeah, I believe we've previously looked into how fucking rough and rugged Glasgow was. Have you ever heard of the Glasgow kiss? It's a headbutt, but really a surprise headbutt. You're talking with somebody? You know, maybe hoping things will not turn violent, maybe thinking you'll both walk away that out of nowhere to, bam, you know, top of his head slams violently into the soft tissue

your face, your nose is flattened, blood's everywhere, you can't see well, tears have blurred your eyes, you're being punched repeatedly, about to be on the ground, we're going to be stomped and kicked, you have been given a Glasgow kiss. And a city doesn't get associated with an act that violent, unless it's commonplace. Glasgow still has higher rates of crime and violent offenses in the rest of Scotland, but severe violent crime has dropped quite a bit in the past decades. My son, Kyler, he almost got his ass beat in Glasgow once. He was touring parts to the UK with his maternal grandparents,

during the summer before his senior year of high school, walking around wearing a Manchester United Jersey, saw some guy in a Glasgow, Ranger jersey. You know, the soccer team plays in a different league. But he made some smart-ass remark about some recent Manchester win, about how much better the English Premier League was or something, I forget. And this guy not only didn't think it was funny, he legitimately was about to beat Kyler's ass in front of his grandparents

on the street in the middle of the day. He was spared an ass-wipping by profusely apologizing walking away. And when Kyder told me that, I was like, yeah, man, I've heard a lot of guys in Glasgow, don't fuck around. Like, you're lucky he didn't smack you. Very rough around the edge of working class city where a lot of people don't have a lot of money, but they have a lot of pride and they don't take shit. And in the 1960s was especially violent. The economy was in a state of free fall, fueled by a rapid period of de-industrialization. Shipbuilding, for example, was once a huge business in Glasgow.

Between 1870 and the advent of World War I in 1915, about a fifth of the world. world ships built in Glasgow were built there and the surrounding area. By 1960, the share plummeted to just 4%. So, you know, from about 20% to around 4%. The ship's shipyards, or the cities, the ships, the ship of Glasgow, the giant ship that is Glasgow. Now, the city's shipyards struggled against massive foreign competition from state subsidized, highly modernized yards in countries like Japan and West Germany. Similarly, trained manufacturing, once huge, but had fallen away. It was way down. people again people began to flee the city looking for jobs elsewhere the city's population dropped from a peak of 1.137 million in 1938 to 1 million eighty nine thousand in 195,191 so a slight drop slight drop again over the following decade to 1 million 55,000 in 19691 but then it fell off a cliff in 1960s and it dropped all the way to 897000 in 1971 so you know losing over 150,000 people in a decade you know roughly 15% of the total population that left a lot of vacant houses You know, they became slums

Full of homeless squatters Government subsidized housing projects became areas taken over by violent street gangs Alcoholism rates skyrocketed Bar fights often involving knives and bricks and whatever else would bash some fuckers heading over the weekend

Every weekend, you know, became the norm But also So much dancing Oh Lusiwati Oh Lutsi Watusi By the late 60s Dancing had become a very, very popular pastime for many young Glaswegians,

which makes sense. Might seem counterintuitive to go out to a club when money is especially tight and pay a cover charge, you know, or maybe go out to some bars beforehand, buy some drinks that are never cheap, but historically across the world, the popularity of dance clubs soar during periods of economic downturn.

Why is that? Well, it's due to a deep psychological desire for escapism. You know, if it feels like no matter how hard you work, you just cannot get a hell. head, you know, if you're just constantly worried about making rent, month after month, and you are working hard, but you still have, you know, you never have much to show for it. That's a lot of fucking stress to be constantly carrying around. And it can get real, real hard not to feel just completely defeated.

That life just fucking sucks and it's always going to suck. And most of us during times like these, you know, we need to take a break from constantly sitting around just stewing in our own worries about tomorrow all the time, you know, this future that appears increasingly bleak. so the urge becomes very strong to just forget about your troubles for at least a night for a couple hours at least just go out you know just fucking live for now you know get a little drunk maybe a lot drunk shake that ass sweat and stomp it out feel that delicious sexual tension with somebody you're attracted to but don't know you know just live in that moment see where the night takes you hail lucifina unfortunately for bible john's victims you know their fun night out would turn really not fucking fun very fast at the end of the evening which would be the end of their lives. His victims were ordinary women who had gone out for a night of dancing, and then encountered a monster who initially presented himself as a harmless stranger, also out for a good time. All three women on what was to be their final night on earth had gone to

the Barreland Ballroom, Barrowland, the biggest dance hall in the city. Let's take a moment to learn about this key location. The Barrowland Ballroom, commonly just called the Barrowland or the Barris. Pretty famous spot in the history of UK music. Very, very famous spot in the history of Scottish music. It was founded by a woman named Margaret McIver, 21-year-old Maggie, married James McIver in 1902. Maggie would be a nearly lifelong entrepreneur.

She founded the Barris Market in Glasgow, a decade and a half after getting married during the interwar years, selling fruit out of her yard, fruit that she would haul over and present out of a handcart, aka Wilbarrow, hence where the first. the term, you know, from a bariland ballroom comes from. What started off is just one barrel of fruit and fish steadily grew into a thriving market full of about 300 local hawkers selling their various wares.

Think a farmer's market out of their barrows in her yard on Marshall Lane. Then in 1926, Maggie decided to cover the market, mainly protect clothing hawkers from having their stock ruined in the rain. The market was fully enclosed two years later. Somewhere between 1918 and 1926, Maggie began to host a Christmas, party for all the hawkers working on her property, people who paid some form of rent to her and their families in a local hall. But then in the early 1930, she couldn't find a halt to rent one holiday season.

And not wanting that to ever happen again, she built her own. On Christmas Eve, 1934, the Barrowland Ballroom would open. Author Paul Harrison wrote, as a dance venue, it was still something of an unknown quantity. However, its success was quickly proved when the big band sound of Billy Blue and the Bluebirds brought dancers and revelers flocking to the Beryland. The cues to get into the hall on dance nights were long and snake-down gallagate

as all music types and tastes were catered for. Maggie would die in June of 1958 at the age of 78 and would leave the business to her son, Sam. Then two months later, on August 19th, the ballroom would completely be burned down in a fire. The Beryland was rebuilt two years later, opened as a tribute to Maggie on Christmas Eve of 1960,

and all that remained to the original dance, Hall was part of the old sign. By the late 60, the Barre Land had once again become one of the most, if not the most popular dance hall in the city. And before moving forward, a bit more history on this place. That has nothing to do with our episode, but I just think it's cool. Early in their careers, a bunch of huge bands played intimate shows in the 1900-person capacity venue, bands like Oasis, The Cure, Radiohead, the Clash, Foo Fighters, and on and on,

loads a homegrown Glasgow bands like Simple Minds, Friends, Ferdinand, Biffy Clyro. I fucking love Biffy Cliro. I love a little known Biffy Cliro's song called Weird Leisure. It was never a big hit for the band overall, more recent song of theirs,

but a hit with me. I used to listen to this part of like a gym, you know, workout mix all the time. Yeah, those guys formed about 20 minutes outside of the city. Little town is where they got, you know, got started, but then, you know, all the early gigs were Glasgow.

And then simple, mines, which were huge in the 80s, they filmed the music video for Waterfront in the Barrowland Ballroom in in 1983. It was pretty cool. The venue wasn't doing well. They wanted to support the venue. So they hosted a free gig for their fans to shoot the video there, helped

relaunch the location as a legendary live music venue. And then one of my favorite bands from the 90s is from anywhere, Bell and Sebastian. They're from Glasgow. Their music was the unofficial soundtrack I felt like for independent coffee shops in the late 90s, early aughts. And everywhere I went, it was like, you know, one of about six or seven different albums was like, If You're Feeling Sinister by Bell and Sebastian just did tracks from that playing at coffee shops.

They did the three-night run at the ballroom in December of 2010. All of it was broadcast live on NPR. 1996s, if you're feeling sinister. It is such a good fucking album. And it's a great song, the title track. I had the CD and if it would have been a tape I definitely would have worn it out

indulge me just for a few more moments But it didn't interest The only thing she wants to know Is how I am when and where to go How am well and where to follow How am why and where to go How am where to follow But if you are feeling sinister

Go up and see a minister He'll try in vain to take away the pain of being a hopeless unbelieper. Ah, I feel that shit, my soul. So much great history, this very magical venue. The heart of modern Scottish music, the venue where the annual Scottish Music Awards have been hosted now since 2021. And all of this history is still largely overshadowed online by Bible John, having used the venue for his hunting grounds. The victims of Bible John attended the over-25s nights, which were held on Thursday. Thursdays in the late 60s and were more than a bit scandalous.

The over 25s were different from a typical night at the bear land in two major ways. First off, you didn't have to be, as the name implies, you know, at least 25 years old to get in, but it was encouraged. They were advertising to very strongly catering to people over the age of 25. And because of that, most of the people who came to the dance hall were, and this is the second major difference from a normal night, they were married. And it was assumed that most everybody there was introducing themselves. under an alias.

A big element of secrecy amongst the patrons on these nights. Why? Well, I bet you've already guessed. According to local Stephen Brown, it was known that if you wanted, quote, a bit more than a dance. You should go to the Barrowland on a Thursday night and on some over 25 Saturday nights as well. You know, go get fucked. Brown added many older women would be there. The wedding rings came off and identities were disguised.

I don't think many use their actual name. on a Thursday night. We used to call it Grab a Granny Night because the number of older women who went there. Grab a Granny night.

I hope that dude wasn't thinking that a granny was a 26-year-old woman. If so, I don't even want to fucking know how old he thought a young woman was.

This shit reminds me of Ashley Madison. Do you remember that seedy-ass website? I looked and it is still around. My account is still, no. But launched in 2001,

AshleyMadison. com. It's a company, their entire business model, well, I haven't looked into how they've rebranded, I guess, recently. But for most of their history, the entire business model built on adultery, the website slogan was literally life is short, have an affair. They supposedly still have, or still had 60 million users as of 2019. Women could create profiles, browse, and reply to messages on this site for free. Without pain,

it offered dudes a base introductory package costing 49 bucks for 100 credits when they started, cost either five credits, so 245 or eight credits, 392. sources vary to open slash read a message thread with any woman, and then 30 credits, $14.70 for a 30-minute real-time chat session. The whole point of this website to launch an affair. Also, according to Annalie Newitz, the editor-in-chief of Gizmodo, who analyzed a bunch of leaked data from 2015, Ashley Madison had over 70,000 bots

that would send fake-ass female messages to male users, who were literally paying to try and have an affair unbeknownst to them with the fucking bot, responding to them with lines of code, or lines tight by probably some like dude in fucking India or wherever. You also had to pay $19 to delete your account, which is how they made a lot of money. People worried about, you know, their identity being uncovered. But then they got hacked,

and 10s of thousands, hundreds of thousands of accounts were leaked. And it was revealed that a much, a lot of these accounts, you know, were ones that were supposedly deleted. So crazy. Before Ashley Madison, in Glasgow in the 60s, if you wanted to fuck somebody outside of your spouse, you went to a place like the Barrowland on a Thursday night. Not its finest era. Thursday nights at the Bariland also notoriously popular, interestingly amongst police officers. According to a former bouncer named Ronnie, who spoke to author Paul Harrison in 1988.

Bible John, that's the name that most Glasgow folk cannot forget. I think everyone who lived in the city at that time had their own ideas about who he was, who he might have been. there were some strong rumors at the time that he was part of the law. From the killing of that first lassie, the nurse, folks were saying things about how she was often seen out with the law. One of the rumors that was talked about was about her having an affair with the married policeman. The cops worked hard to stop the talk, and I'll never forget one high-ranking policeman warning me

that any such bleather gossip was to be dismissed as it was damaging to the route to their inquiries. I thought it was a peculiar thing to come out with since the cops really bothered themselves with dance hall rumors. Glass Weegean Love that term for somebody from Glasgow And Guardian journalist Audrey Gillian Who was just a little baby during the Bible John murders Wrote in her guardian piece about how the serial killer impacted the city

Saying the city that loved dancing Was suddenly living in fear of a killer Who was picking his victims on the dance floor They saw an artist sketch of him and thought That's the guy at the corner shop Or I see him walking his dog in the park It changed the way women felt And children like myself grew up thinking he was

a boogeyman. During the active investigation, undercover cops would come to the dance halls, looking for the suspect, viewing all the male dancers with suspicion, while also shaking their asses off on the dance floor. It is funny to me that for months, the Barreland was crawling with undercover cops, getting paid to have drinks and dance to night away, to blend in. Imagine getting that assignment at having two left feet. No clue how to dance. You know, people are like, I wonder what's, these guys might be a cop And then they see some dude out there

Doing the lawnmower spasticly Then the sprinkler Just fucking horribly biting his lower lip so hard Well probably at least that guy Probably least that guy A criminal started to avoid the bare land Because of the known police presence And then the already struggling local economy

Took another hit when regular stop Going to all sorts of bars And dance halls around town Either because they were women's Trade up fucking terrified of getting murdered by Bible John Or having their husbands find out They were cheating on them Because they'd started to flirt with the cop

and I don't know what got questioned about that or something or they were dudes who didn't want to be around cops while out having drinks because they didn't want

to be arrested for any number of reasons. One fucking creep created a lingering sense of distrust in the city that would last for years and the media

speculation around him focusing a lot on these over 25 nights led to a lot of judgment being cast on his victims which made their murders all that much harder

on their families as we'll see in the timeline which we're about to dive into investigators also made a lot of notes on the victims, writing things like, quote, they liked the company of men. They were labeled as promiscuous because they were married women who wanted a night out. Even if they hadn't gone out trolling for dick, not every woman who went out on a Thursday night to the bearerland was looking to cheat on their husbands. Not all were married, not all hoping to get late. Sometimes it was just a woman who wanted to go out dancing.

These women were also judged for going out while on their periods. Seriously. For shame. How dare you leave your home ever with your leaky front butt? So gross and shameful. That random judgment will make sense later. I mean, it won't make sense that they were judged necessarily, but you will see why menstruation enter the chat. The police would also face criticism for how they handled the investigation. One of the lead investigators was Detective Superintendent Joe Beattie,

who joined the Glasgow Police Force in 1946 after finishing his service with the RAF, the Royal Air Force. He was a man with a reputation for being a hard but fair cop. By 1969, he'd been promoted to superintendent, was placed in charge of the Bible John investigation, and his perceived failures in this investigation would derail and really just end his career. He would retire from the Strathclyde police force just seven years later in 1976. And quick note, you'll hear the term Strathclyde a couple of times in the timeline. Strathclyde, one and nine government regions of Scotland, created in 1975 by the Local Government Act of 1973, then abolished 1996 by the Local Government Et cetera Act. of 1994.

And that act does have the term, et cetera, in it, which I do find hilarious. Like, as if they were just too lazy to write out exactly what was in it other than just an act. So, so, yeah, yada, yada, yada, blah, blah. We're going to, I don't know, I'm going to try and pass this act or fucking et cetera, whatever today. So fucking let's vote or, you know, whatever and stuff. The Strathclyde police force was created in 1975 as part of the restructuring of local

government and they had jurisdiction over Glasgow. A couple more things before jumping into the timeline. The author of our main source this week, Paul Harrison, was in contact with Joe Beattie for years until he died in 2000. Beattie helped guide him through the investigation as best he could. Joe Beattie wrote one letter to Harrison from the 90s. Paul, there isn't a day in my life that goes by when I don't think about those crimes. It affected not only communities, but an entire city, a nation. And there was not one person in Scotland who had not heard of Bible John.

It's 20 odd years since it all happened and still he has escaped our clutches. I don't believe we did much wrong at the time. It was down to individual circumstances. Witnesses didn't want to come forward or be named. Their memories were obscured by drink and in the majority of instances by deliberate amnesia. People didn't and couldn't become involved and fear that their secret assignations in the Beraland would affect their domestic harmony. Married couples were more concerned about keeping their private lives secret from one another as opposed to catching a killer. Having said that, somehow the killer seemed to keep one step ahead of everything we did.

Harrison wrote in his book that the original investigators did make mistakes, though, and that in the 60s police officers in Glasgow were not, quote, highly respected guardians of the peace. They were viewed by most local residents with suspicion, even by people who are not criminals. Throughout his research, Harrison came to think that the Strathclyde police were, quote, deliberately obstructive to inquiries seeking basic information on the case. Harrison first wrote to the Strathclyde police in 1991 to tell them that he was researching for a book about Bible. John. He received a call telling him it was better to look at the archives and that his time would be better spent analyzing cases within his own department. He was also told that the files were gone. Harrison wrote, my thoughts on the case began to change as it became obvious that the police

may have something to hide. We'll of course look into that. As a police officer, this was difficult for him to come to terms with and he had to get resourceful and occasionally go around to facial channels to get the information for his book. So was Bible John a cop or strongly connected to some police officers or police officer investigating the murders in some kind of incriminating way. That's what a lot of people think. But a lot of people, as you will see, have a lot of strong and wildly contrasting opinions about Bible John. This won't be the last time we will discuss controversy surrounding the Bible John investigators. But now with all that context established, let's begin this week's timeline of the Bible John murders.

Right after today's first of two mid-show sponsor breaks. If you don't want to hear these ads ever again, please sign up to be a space as or on page Patreon, help us make monthly charitable contributions, get the catalog ad-free, episodes three days early, and more. Now it is actually time-suck timeline time. Shrap on those boots, soldier. We're marching down a time-suck timeline. Around 7.30 a.m. on the morning of February 23rd, 1968, a 67-year-old joiner, a type of specialized carpenter who builds things like doors, windows, stairs, and furniture, using a workshop. Maurice Goodman walked to his lockup garage on Carmichael Lane

and he saw something laying in front of the doors and realized it was a naked body. He kicked the body, assuming, obviously, that it was probably one of those hobo zombies he'd heard about who'd fallen asleep. And nothing chapped Maurice's ass, more than a fucking hobo zombie, too lazy to get up off its ass

and get itself its own brains crashing in front of his goddamn garage. No. He kicked the body because he was hoping that it was not a dead body. and rather that there was somebody who had passed out and was asleep. He was trying to wake him. He called out. You all right?

Nudged them with his foot. Then he realized they were dead and he rushed inside his house to call the police. He was in such a state of shock that he initially thought the body was a man. The police first assumed that they were going to find a homeless person, some dude who died overnight in the cold. And because of that, the first officers on the scene were not homicide detectives but traffic officers who just kind of happen to be in the area. Interestingly, the two detectives who eventually showed up also thought the body was a man. It was a nude woman. Her clothing was nowhere to be found

except for a pair of shoes nearby. There was also a used menstrual pat near her body. I wasn't there, obviously. My dad might have been, but I wasn't. But I do wonder if those two detectives and Maurice and the two traffic cops were not like all that super smart. How did they all initially think this body was a guy? Because I've seen photos of the victim,

very traditionally feminine shape, hips, boobs, the whole kitten caboodle, appeared that she shaved her legs, had a woman's hairstyle. She was also menstruating. Was she lying face down? She had to have been lying face down, right? Because otherwise, they were just like, man, who, this guy's got some crazy moves, right? I mean, very shapely moves. And one hell of a micropine.

God damn, with fucking blood coming out of it. Big moves, tiny bleeding dick. This guy was, he was dealing with some shit. Wait, wait, could this be a woman's body? Is it, hey, anyone here know what a vagina looks like? I'm going to need a reference photo. The woman's body had dark marks around her neck, later identified as ligature marks, also had cuts and bruises on her face and body.

She had suffered extensive blunt force trauma, particularly to the head and face. The autopsy revealed that her cause of death was strangulation. There was no conclusive evidence of sexual assault, but it seemed highly likely based on the state of the victim's body. Back in 1968, you know, of course, they didn't have near the same forensic tools that they have now at their disposal for testing for sexual assaults. The early stage of rigor mortis she was in indicated she had only died several hours prior to being found. Finally, her handbag, watch, clothing, all her jewelry except a wedding ring missing from the scene.

Some members of the press were quickly tipped off, arrived at the crime scene before her body was taken away. A reporters would actually start doing door-to-door inquiries about her murder before the police, which is, you know, a little embarrassing. again, most people in Glasgow at the time thought that the local police force was a corrupt fucking joke. Some detectives who did conduct door-to-door canvassing spoke to a school teacher who heard screaming in the early morning hours. The witness recalled, quote, I heard a woman shout out twice in quick succession. Let me go. It was brief and I never heard it again. I thought nothing of it at the time.

Okay. I was not followed by any kind of screams or any sort of commotion, really. I could not honestly say whether the woman was in distress or not. do to it all happening so quickly. That feels like a little bit of rationalization. No, I didn't know. Why would I have thought to help? All I heard was somebody, you know, just cry out, let me go, let me go. And I was like, you know, that could be any number of things. That could be, you know, somebody who they have a weak hand and they're shaking somebody's hand in a form of friendly greeting. And the person, unbeknownst to them, they, they like squeezed

a little hard. And this person due to their, maybe they, I don't know, maybe they had a little broken bone in their hand. It just hurt them more than expected. And that's, that's, I thought it was probably something like that. Some people partying late the night, this victim was killed at a nearby flat, aka apartment overlook in the alley, claimed they didn't see her here anything unusual. Could have happened shortly, you know, after they went to bed. The evening of the day the body was found, the Glasgow Evening Times ran a story about the victim and provided her description. A man named John Wilson, read that article, noticed that she was found near his house, this poor fucking bastard. His 25-year-old daughter, Patricia, had not come home from her night out,

which greatly worried him, but he still didn't think the victim could be her, probably in denial. I mean, how could he not be? My mind would also be working hard to block out this possibility. A neighbor told John that the police were desperate for information about the victim and if anybody had a missing friend or relative they needed to call them. John and his wife talked about it. Then reluctantly, John went to the police to report his daughter is missing. Soon after that, he lived, or excuse me, she lived, or excuse me, he lived, God, he lived out of parents were his fucking nightmare because he was shown and then positively identified Patricia's remains. Patricia Charlotte Wilson, Docker.

She had grown up in the English county of Gloucestershire, over 300 miles to the south, down by Wales. And August in 1953, when she was 10, she and her mom, Pauline, had moved to Singapore across the world where her dad, John, had been stationed with the RAF. A lot of John's in this episode. They then later moved to Glasgow for the same reason and stayed. Glasgow used to have several RAF stations and airfields in the area. At age 19, Patricia married Alexander Docker, a senior aircraftman, aircraftman with the RAF. They had a son named Sandy, then moved to and lived together in the Mediterranean Island Nation to Cyprus, where Alex was stationed. A babysitter there is in Cyprus would describe Patricia as a very nice lady.

She always used to dress up very nice. She said that she and Patricia went on day trips to the beach with Little Sandy, and they would enjoy watching TV together, and they both went to nursing school. school. The doctors had a troubled marriage, unfortunately. They separated soon after the Cyprus posting. Patricia would return to Glasgow in April of 1967 to live with her family. She became an auxiliary nurse. She would work nights, split her shift to take care of her baby, you know, little guy Sandy. Her parents would help out by letting both of them live with them, also by watching Sandy. Patricia's son, Sandy, who now goes by the name of Alex, lived with his dad after his mother was murdered. He wrote the following about his mother many, many years later, when interviewed by

the BBC. I can almost picture my mother's laughing face, but the detail is too fuzzy. There is no firm visual imprint. I can't see my mind's eye a face in any situation nor anyone else's from that time. Their presence is keenly felt, but their physical form is indistinct. A few

photographs of Pat I have only elicit a weak sense of recognition, if at all. So sad, right? It was only four or five when she was murdered. Patricia normally had Tuesdays and Thursdays off of work and once a week, like a lot of Glasgow girls around her age. She went out dancing. And she had, of course, done just that on Thursday, February 22nd,

1968, one of those over 25 nights, despite what the neighbors and others' thoughts. And if I ever become a neighbor rolling my eyes and getting irritated because some 25-year-old single mom goes out dancing once a week, please come find me and have a talk with me. And during that talk, I am going to ask you to do me a little favor. And that is to shoot me in the head till I'm fucking dead, because I don't want to be one of those crotchy old, no life having bitter over shit that doesn't affect my life at all, none of my business shit fucks. The world's better off without those dipshits, isn't it? A mother having a night out just was not considered respectable by many, including members

of the police, who wrote in their reports that Patricia, quote, appears to enjoy the company of men and was an only child that apparently rather spoiled. This spoiled bitch loves dick, serves her right. Her ex-husband and baby daddy, Alex Docker, two words, not two words, two letters, two letters away from Flex Cocker. Alex Stocker, almost flexed cocker, for the record.

Let it be known, may it please the court. He was invited to Glasgow under the pretense of formally identifying the body, but that had already been done. It was really just an excuse to get him there for a formal interview

since the X is pretty much a default prime suspect in cases like this. But Alex had a verifiable ironclad alibi and was quickly ruled out as being her killer. The police search the nearby River Cart informed the press. They had a notable find, but didn't say what it was,

in the hopes of making the killer unnerved. They found Patricia's bracelet, part of a watch case, in her purse, but not her clothing. The police made several public appeals for information the days after the murder, Detective Superintendent, Elfiston Daglish. Yep, that motherfucker's first name was legitimately Elfiston. Elfinston.

I wonder if you went by Elfever. He said, We would like to contact the driver of a Morris 1,000 traveler, which at about 1110 p.m. on Thursday, 22nd, February, stopped at a bus stop in Langside Avenue at the entrance to the Queens Park Gate, a young woman thought to have been standing at the stop, the 34 bus route got into the car,

which was last seen heading eastwards along Langside Avenue towards Langside Monument. The identity of the girl is not known, and we would like to contact her too. O'Elth said another appeal. At about 11.20 p.m. on the 22nd, a white Ford console, 375 model was seen in Bramar Street, turning onto Overdale Street.

A man and a woman were in the car, which drove up Overdale Street, turning into Carmichael Place. In Carmichael Place, the car stopped and ran backwards. A vehicle at the rear sounded its horn and the white car stopped. It was last seen at the corner of Overdale Street and Carmichael Place. The driver and female passenger are requested to come forward. Within 48 hours, the two occupants of the Ford Consul were located, and they provided an explanation for their presence near the crime scene.

The occupants of the Morris 1000 traveler never located, so a renewed appeal was issued, but no one would ever admit to being the driver of that vehicle. So maybe suspicious, maybe not, right? Maybe they committed some other crime, didn't want to incriminate themselves. Maybe they just didn't read the paper. Had no idea. People were trying to locate them.

Maybe they were physically unable to talk to the police due to a tragic accident involving a ton of crazy glue and mouths and dicks. There's a lot of possibilities. A week after the murder, the police sent 40 detectives to conduct interviews at the Majestic Ballroom, another popular Glasgow dance hall. Patricia's photo was projected onto a large screen for patrons to be able to get a good look at. The police were able to track down approximately 130 out of 150 people who were at the Majestic on February 22nd. Witnesses revealed that Patricia was there, but that she had left when the police closed at 10.30 p.m.,

she headed over to the Barreland, which stayed open until midnight on that night. Her body was found four miles from the Barreland, meaning she technically could have walked, but highly unlikely, almost certainly had gotten a ride from somebody. A ride probably not to the killer's house, but to her house, since she was, her body was found very close to where she was staying. The police would speak to roughly a thousand taxi drivers to see if any of them had picked up Patricia that night, but the investigative, that investigative avenue went nowhere. One witness initially felt certain that he had been with the Patricia at the Majestic, but then realized he was wrong and that he had seen her there the night before.

And then when the police looked further into the alleged sightings of Patricia at the Majestic, they realized none of them were credible, fucking unreliable witnesses, too eager to try and help overstating their cases, such a kind of. common thing, thanks to the faulty nature of human memory, and to so many of us being so hardwired to desperately want to help and to please the people interviewing us. A credible witness at the Barrowland had placed Patricia at the dance hall at the time of the alleged majestic sidings corroborated by other evidence. Patricia had in fact not gone to the, not gone to the majestic at all that night. Despite a lot of investigative effort clearly being spent on this homicide, if no one comes forward with solid information and you have no strong suspect, you can't solve the case and Patricia's case soon went cold. A police officer who asked

to remain anonymous, told author Paul Harrison in 1994, unofficially, although it goes against the grain, I think most of us involved at the time realized that unless somebody confessed or an eyewitness came forward, then it was likely to remain unsolved, since we had pursued so much wrong information that could have been resolved by the right questions being asked at the outset. Too many senior officers got involved, and ultimately we were sent on a different daily wild goose chase. We were running around like headless chickens. I love the transparency there. This first murder, as with the discovery of the body of most serial killers first known

victims, did not paralyze Glasgow because it was just thought to be a one-off. It was assumed by many that Patricia's killer must have been somebody she knew. Or somebody who had just grown obsessed with her, you know, somebody who had it out for Patricia specifically, not for women in general. Especially with no, you know, second body turned up in the following year. A year or so out, you know, was already mostly forgot. gotten news, something that nobody thought about outside of those who had known her. But then 18 months after the first murder, a second eerily similar murder would occur,

and that would start to put a lot of Glasgowwegians really on edge. Still love the term Glasgow. It is a term generally used, by the way, not in reference to people from Glasgow, but in reference to the infamous Glasgow accent. One of the most infamous accents in the English language when it comes to being extremely difficult for most other English speakers to understand. Let me just give you a little taste of it. some things I need to know about Scotland.

Oh, you need to know that they're trying to split up the country and all that. We don't want to. We're not a decent council and that's basically right. That he's pretty poor just now. And what about you, brother? The same is my brother who said. I didn't understand a word, but it was awesome. Love the comments underneath this video.

Just a lot of shit about how even the captions just fucking gave up trying to understand what those two guys were talking about. And also about how AI will never be able to understand or replicate. this particular accent. Also, tons of videos out there online about Glaswegians trying to use, you know, voice recognition systems like Siri or Alexa, and these systems just do not work with them.

Like, they have to speak in a different accent than their natural one, because otherwise the computers just have no idea what they're trying to talk about. Let's hear that clip one more time. It's so good. What are some things I need to know about Scotland? Oh, you need to know that they're trying to split up the country.

We don't want that. We want a decent council and that's basically right. That is pretty poor just now. So what about you, brother? The same is my brother said. I didn't understand a word, but it was awesome. I think the second guy said, same as my brother said. Same as my brother said.

On August 16th, 1969, 31-year-old, Jimima McDonald. Yep, her name was Jamima McDonald. Spent the evening dancing at the Barreland Ballroom. You don't mean a lot of Jamimas anymore. She was a regular there. She was born in 1937. one of seven kids

I don't know I have old McDonald's old McDonald had a farm stuck in my head by 1969 she had three kids of her own 12 year old Elizabeth nine year old Andrew seven year old Alan those who knew her consistently

said that she was a good mother that she always put her kids before herself she'd been an abusive relationships but still believed in love her life had always been pretty hard she enjoyed escaping it you know by going out dancing here and there also really hope that she would

meet somebody excuse me you know a good dude off went out to the Barreland alone because her friends were in stable relationships. According to police notes, as reported by the BBC, Jemima appeared to be clean in her person and her home and children and her children were well cared for. She'd been to Barreland three nights in a row the week before her murder. She was, quote, in receipt of public funds plus maintenance from the fathers of her children. Police also wrote that Jamima appeared to be extremely fond of male company. Oh, we got ourselves another dirty cockfean, boys.

how dare she love what we desperately want our own wives to love our cocks? God damn it! Why can't all women fucking love our cocks but hate all other cocks? Actually, why can't I and I alone have the one true cock women crave, the one cock to rule them all? At the time of her death, Jemima and the kids lived in a small flat in Bridgeton, a district east at the city center. This was considered a rougher area of Glasgow, but she had friends there and enjoyed living there. She described it to a friend as, quote, a tiny city where everyone looks after their own

within a bigger city where nobody cares. I can go out onto the main street, get everything we all need, and still have money left over for sweets and treats for the kids. The only thing I would like is a better house with proper rooms for the kids and somewhere decent for them to play in,

but this one is fine for now. I am not complaining. Jemima's older sister, Margaret O'Brien, another Maggie, so many maggies in Glasgow, lived in the same government housing tenement block just across the landing. She helped her sister out

when she could. A friend of Jemima named Edie Brown gave some context for why Jemima would go out to the Berylend multiple times just before she died. Brown told Paul Harrison in 92, the weekend when Mima was murdered, she had been busy and was out jigging at Berylent on the Thursday Friday as well as a Saturday night. She never admitted as much, but we her friends believed she had met a fella who she was keen on and wanted to get to know a bit better. Some other folk who knew her said they'd seen her with a new man, he was handsome looking by all accounts, and she seemed to be captivated, by him because she was making a real effort to be in his company. Such a nice-looking man, well-groomed and smartly dressed, was rare to most of us in the East End.

Anyone dressed like that tended to be something to do with the police. The short back and sides' hairstyle and the dark suit and tie generally a good giveaway, that they are disciplined. Then there is the way they act, all confident and arrogant. They knew how to play a lassie to get their own way. Barry revealing. What she and probably, you know, many in a, you know, Maggie Circle thought of cops at the time, that they were arrogant and manipulative. On the night of August 16th, 1969,

Jemima was getting ready to go back to the Beryland. She fed her kids' dinner, then dropped them off at her sister Maggie's place to hang with her and their cousins for a sleepover. Authorities believed Jemima stopped at Betty's Bar. It's a fun little bar name, a little hole in the wall, pub with cheap drinks, on her way to the dance hall.

Most people drank someplace like at Bettys before they got to the Beraland because at that time there was no alcohol sold inside the dance hall. It was later reported that Jemima was seen talking to a well-dressed man in the bar. She was seen inside the Barreland dancing with a tall guy with short red hair. She seemed happy and comfortable with him. Jemima, unfortunately, never shared the name of this mysterious suitor with anybody, at least not anybody who would speak to the police.

On the morning of August 17th, a Sunday morning, Maggie, having never heard from her sister once she had dropped her kids off or, you know, since she had dropped him off, went across the landing to check on Jemima, knocked, but Jemima didn't answer the door. Maggie went back to her flat, assumed her sister was sleeping because she had. maybe had too much of drinks a night before. Maggie returned a few hours later. Jamima still didn't answer the door. Now she's a little worried, but still not enough to call the police. By that evening when Maggie still had not heard from her,

she wondered if Jamima maybe met somebody and decided to spend a couple nights at their place. However, Maggie knew that that wasn't like her sister. She wouldn't leave the kids for so long without making proper arrangements. Still, not wanting to alarm anybody. Prematurely, she decided she'd wait till Monday morning before checking with friends and family.

On the morning of August 18th, that Monday morning, Maggie called neighbors. She knew her regulars at the Barreland to see if they knew where her sister was. Nobody had a clue. She walked down McKee's Street knocking on doors, asking around. Nobody knew anything. But then Maggie walked by a group of kids outside, heard them whispering about having found a dead body on the ground floor of an abandoned tenement block at 23 McKeith Street, just 20 yards from where she now stood. A common spot for kids to play or homeless people to sleep at the time. Maggie asked the kids that they recognized who the person was. A man identified as Robert S. contacted author Paul Harris, nearly 30 years later, claimed he was one of those kids who had found the body. And Robert said, Well, it's very hard to bring up in my mind. This is the thing. It's all right.

And he's not going there and happy, happy, his eyes. No, that was some random Scottish dude speaking gibberish. No, Robert said, I'd seen drunken tramp sleeping in that block, wasn't fit for human habitation, but desperate people used it for their own devices. We would throw stones and bits of old wood at the turn. tramp sleeping there just to disturb them and get them to move on, and once we had them sufficiently annoyed, we would run and hide from them. I didn't recognize the woman lying in that flat. None of us did.

Otherwise, we would have raised the alarm with her family sooner. At first, I thought it wasn't a real person. It looked like some kind of Taylor's dummy or model. It was only when somebody said that it was a woman, that she was bleeding on her face, that we realized something was different. When I saw the body, the woman was laid face down. She had some of her clothes pulled up, some were torn and ripped. Her Nylons were on her body, her shoes were off, looked as though she'd been in a fight. Somebody had pulled out of her clothing, caused the damage, tearing off her stockings and temper almost. Sounds like she was sexually assaulted. Maggie walked into that abandoned flat and found and, of course, immediately recognized her sister's body.

Jemima's autopsy would state that she had been badly beaten about the face and strangled to death, likely with her own stockings, which were lying beside her with her shoes. She died about 30 hours before she'd been found. Like Patricia Docker, Jemima, was all. also menstruating at the time of her death. But unlike with Patricia, her body had been found fully clothed. Well, mostly clothed. Investigators were again unable to conclusively determine whether or not Jamima had engaged in sexual activity before her murder.

Clothing somewhat disturbed, clearly. Underwear she was wearing were not. Doesn't mean that creep couldn't have put them back on her, though. Another detail similar to the Patricia Docker case was Jamima's missing black purse. The police appealed to the public to come forward if anybody had seen a Jamima on the night. of August 16th and they immediately had more luck than they'd had with Patricia. And I misspoke earlier. I actually paused and stopped recording and looked back as like, yeah, I misspoke the purse was

not found. I believe I said earlier that it was found from the first body. There was multiple sources on this and I did a lot of edits with this one. And no, the purse detail, the purse was not found with either of these bodies. Other items were scattered around but not purses. And that will be important to the police's investigation. The police appealed for the public to come forward If anybody had seen Jamima on the night of August 16th

They immediately had more deluxe than they had with Patricia Two additional witnesses came forward Independently both had seen Jamima with the man Both gave similar descriptions He was said to be 25 to 35 years old Six foot to six foot two Very slim with a pale face and short red hair Also reported to have been wearing a good quality

And stylish blue suit with hand stitched lapels And a white shirt and tie the jacket was deemed so unusual that police went to tailors in Glasgow to see if any of them had ever made it for a customer. Jemima was seen leaving the bare land at approximately 1230 a.m., August 17th, with this man walking towards either Main Street

or Landrasi Street in the general direction of her home. A neighbor saw her at 1240 a.m. standing with a man at the entrance to 23 Mackeith Street where her body was found. The neighbor thought she seemed unconcerned and waved nonchalantly. One woman, however, on McKee's Street remember

to hear a woman scream on the night of the murder but couldn't recall the exact time. Huh. Aye, I heard that the scream sounded like a last being bloody murdered.

We'll check, but who wants to draw killers attention to themselves? Not me. I was back to bed I did. People very nonchalant about screams. But it was a rough neighborhood. Now two, with a year and a half

gap in between, two killings, two women had been murdered after a night out at the barrel end. Both single mothers and perhaps coincidentally, but perhaps not, both menstruating the time of their deaths. Both had been beaten in a rage before they'd been strangled to death with the licature, handbag stolen from the crime scene,

dead bodies found not far from their homes. Immediately, most of the press and most of the public thought the women had been killed by the same man, and on August 21st, Detective Chief Superintendent Tom Goodell told the press, there are one or two similarities between both murders. I cannot say more than that at this moment. Trying to downplay the connection, probably trying to prevent widespread public fear and panic, increased public pressure on the police, I'm assuming.

Goodell did say that Jamima's handbag was missing, but the police suggested that the children, playing in the building, those who had found her body, must have taken it. Goodell asked two eyewitnesses to give description to the suspect to a local artist, deputy director of the Glasgow School of Art, G.W. Lennox Patterson, who created a famous composite sketch, released August 26, 1969. Male and female undercover officers then began surveillance at the Beraland again, right more cop dancing

Jane Brown felt appropriate there since his grooves they are fucking so danceable he was so good at that kind of music and I can't understand what he's saying any more than I can

you know a lot of people from Glasgow all the undercover cops led to local businesses suffering and soon pressure was placed on the police to decrease the amount of officers staking out the dance halls and bars guess they weren't that undercover people knew they were there

and then when the early descriptions of the suspect led nowhere. Surveillance ended in October of 1969, six or so weeks after the murder. Child welfare caseworkers ended up taking Jamima's daughter Elizabeth to one care home. Her brother's taken to another. Maggie, I guess, just couldn't afford to

and or didn't have the bandwidth to raise them on top of everything else she had going on, whatever that was. The boys and their father as well all later changed their last names, trying to distance themselves from constant questions about Jamima's murder. Eldridge Bunny Motley told the BBC that he was living

the outskirts of Manchester at the time of the murder and that he and Jemima had separated when the boys were young, but he still had fond feelings for her. He said, I can see her walking up the road, and she never used to walk. She always used to be skipping and jumping. She wasn't backward and coming forward. We instantly hit it off. It was as simple as that. She was absolutely immaculate. Always. She gave me two lovely sons, and they had been a credit to me and to her. Jamima's son Alan later said nothing was ever explained to us. Well, not to me anyway. That's probably why you don't think about it. it. I just get on with my life. So, you know, it's something that happened. Mom died. Next minute, we're living with dad. Man, poor bastard. A lot of unresolved trauma in that quote. Did you just get

out with your life? I doubt it completely. Alan also emphasized that Jamima did not leave them unattended all the time so she could go out dancing. He said, uh, we were looked after because we had family next door, I suppose like any single parent with three tear away kids around your ankles all day, you've got to have release. If family were willing to look after them while she went out, there's nothing wrong at all with that. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Now, a lot of women in Glasgow are scared, and there's a lot of pressure to catch whoever killed these two women.

Then, the unknown killer or a copycat killer will strike again two months later. And I'll share details of that attack right after the second of two mid-show sponsor breaks. Thank you for listen to those sponsors. I hope you heard some deals you like. Hope you use our landing codes or landing pages and, you know, discount codes, so they know we sent you and that you save some money. and now let's head to the third Bible John attack. At 7.30 a.m. on Friday morning, October 31st, 1969, Halloween morning, Glasgow resident Archibald McIntyre,

taking his dog for a walk on Earl Street. They stopped in the grassy courtyard of his tenement block. Archie let his dog off the leash. It immediately started tracking something what Archie initially thought was a bundle of rags would turn out to be a body. The victim was, of course, another woman. Her coat had been pulled over her head. At first, he hoped that she was still. alive, asked her if she was okay, she didn't respond. He then ran upstairs to have a neighbor call the police, but nobody answered the door, so he had to run to a nearby payphone. Paramedics were dispatched, found the body lying face down, butted up against a wall at the foot of some drain pipes. Her body was cold, rigor mortis had set in, she had a stocking tied around her neck, bruises

on her face, abrasions to her jaw and the side of her head, blood had poured out from her nose and her mouth. Also extra disturbingly, she had a big bite mark on her wrist. Grass stains on the souls of her feet indicated she had struggled mightily with her killer. Her dress and coat had been torn, her gold chain necklace been broken as if it had been ripped off a cheap Woolworth-type cuff link found near her body, which she might have pulled off her attacker during the struggle. And yet again, just like the other two women, she had been menstruating and a menstrual pad found under her armpit. The contents of her handbag scattered around the scene, and again, like with the other two women, the bag was missing. The police suspected that the woman and her killer walked

from Earl Street to the courtyard together, as in she had walked up voluntarily, and then he had snapped and attacked her, but, you know, she may have been forced there. Witness recalled hearing a woman cry out loud, but didn't think much of it at the time. God damn. A lot of people in Glasgow, just so cavalier,

just about ignoring women crying out late at night. I heard the scream, of course I did it. It's quite loud. It sounded quite scared, last. But I was tired, wasn't I? I had a big long day. Had the come hell of high water. It's going to get me rest.

there were signs I don't know who the fuck that guy was Yeah That guy I think that guy started off As a Scottish guy And I'm like

Wait a minute Are you the fucking Lucky Charms Irish Leppercon There were signs of disturbance On the railway Embankment

Near where she was found Clumps of grass Had been pulled up Victim probably tried To flee via the embankment Was pulled back down

By the killer Who took her to the back Wall of the tenement Building And then Tragically Raped her Despite the stalking

Her cause of death Was actually Manual strangulation so he had also strangled her with his hands during her just before he had sexually assaulted her. That's not noted in sources. Later on, the morning she was found, a man named George Patak came to the police station to report that his wife was missing, that she had not come home the night before. He said he looked out the window of his home on Earl Street, saw the police down the road.

The officer asked his wife's name. If he could remember what she was wearing, after given the description, George learned that his wife, Helen, had been murdered. Fuck. just like the other two women she had also been murdered near her home. So do this guy pretend to be a gentleman acting like he was all too happy to walk these ladies home, make sure nothing happened to them

only to be the worst thing that would ever happen to them. Helen and George have been married since March of 1964. After her previous relationship had ended, Helen went to Reading to stay with her brother. She'd met George a Lance corporal in the Royal Corps of Signals, one of the combat

support arms, the British Army. They'd had two boys together, David and Michael, Family followed George when he was sent to Germany, but Helen didn't like it there, moved to Glasgow to live with her mother in March of 1969. Just like with the first victim, she had married a military man, lived overseas for a time, Patricia and Cyprus, Helen and Germany. She worked as a furrier when she got back, a person who makes repairs, alters, sells clothing, other items made from fur. Also worked as a bookie for a little while, according to the BBC. Her marriage to George also fell apart in Germany. George was granted leave traveled to Glasgow

on October 17th hoping to win Helen back but she told him she did not love him anymore When she died they were for all intents and purposes separated The night she died Helen told George She still wanted to go out with her sister Gene Langford Like she typically did George told her Helen that he didn't think it was right for a married mom To go out dancing without her husband

Again he's hoping to win her back Can't blame him She insisted she was still going to go out though And it was perfectly okay for her to do so She had purchased a new dress for this occasion George recalled in an interview with the times many years later, I wasn't happy. She was going out, but I said, okay, go with your sister.

And I gave her a fiverer to get a taxi home. I was aware of the murders, and I wanted her to get home safely. I sometimes wish I'd put my foot down and stopped her going. That was the culture then, wasn't it? What men said was meant to be gospel. Helen wouldn't stand for that, though. She was far too strong-natured, and she had a temper on her when she wanted. I wish things had gone another way.

God, this poor bastard, right? That's got to sting extra hard when you were so, worried about the murderer the night she went out you tried to get her right this person you love to not go out they go out anyway and then the worst happens he did everything he could have but you know wasn't enough uh helen and jean they left at uh 8 pm thursday night one of those over 25 nights took the bus to glasgow cross where they tried to go to several bars they were all too crowded so they went to traders tavern met some friends marian catter jean o'd donnell the sisters then headed to bear Maryland about 10 p.m. According to Gene, Helen caught the attention of, quote, a tall, handsome-looking man who was different because he looked apart, suave, and a little sophisticated.

Gene noticed that his suit was immaculate, but that he also wore suede boots that seemed out of place. She said he wasn't at all the usual sort of man to come to Bearland. He made out, came across as though he was of a better class. Gene also found a dance partner for the night, a man who was vague when she asked him questions and she assumed he was married, didn't want to reveal too much. He did say that he came from cast Milk, a working class district of Glasgow. He worked as a roofer, often as a slater on slate-tile roofs. She recalled, quote, he seemed an all right switched on guy who liked to dance. He was typical of the sort who went to the barrel end. He knew the rules and boundaries that exist beyond having a dance and pushing your luck for a bit more. He didn't push it all. He was friendly. The group had a laugh when the men introduced themselves realized they were both named John, allegedly. Gene told author Paul Harrison decades later, I don't believe either of them were called John.

in fact the man I was dancing with was first to introduce himself to the others when it came to Helen's partner he seemed to pause for a second or two before given his name as John he seemed a bit apprehensive and it was the only time I saw him look less than confident because he seemed so certain of himself in every other way to me he seemed to dominate

my dance partner my John from the outset he seemed disinterested in what he was saying kept looking away as though he was dismissing him and beneath his status that said he had manners and was really attentive towards Helen he was well-groomed and polite and he dressed a lot better than most men I encountered there. I remember him pulling out a chair for Helen to sit on,

and when we went into the toilet or got up for a dance, he would stand up, it was good manners and chivalry, and Helen and I excitedly laughed about it, because it wasn't the sort of thing that happened to us, or we were used to. There was one point in the evening when he seemed reflective, and he was clearly thinking about something. Then he suddenly announced his surname. The noise was too much for me to make sense of what he said, but it was a name that ended with son, a bit like your own, yes, could have been Harrison, I suppose, though all I remember is the end part, and that was definitely son. It didn't really matter at the time because I didn't believe he was being honest about his identity. Also that fateful night, Gene's John thought that the other John was a cop,

openly admitted to her that he didn't like the police. According to Jean, from this, I felt he knew more than he let on and had probably had bad dealings with them in the past. Observations like that would help fuel speculation that Bible John was either a member of the police or connected to the police somehow. The force of them all decided to leave shortly after 11 p.m. Right before they left, Gene wanted to grab some cigarettes from a vending machine. But then it took her coin, didn't dispense the cigarettes. Helen's John then called out for the manager to come over, and Jean, excuse me, would describe their interaction as odd.

She said he wasn't outraged or shouting. He was collected and calm, but very assertive. It was like how a schoolteacher speaks to a young child. He was given the manager a real dressing down without losing his temper. I expected him to get a good hiding for the arrogant way he spoke to the manager. but to my surprise nothing happened and the managers seemed to back off as though this was the last person

you wanted trouble with it was peculiar to see because I've seen some folks get some awful yammerings from staff for a lot less than that yet John's attitude went unchallenged based on Glasgow at the time when she says hammerings

I don't think she's talking about tongue lashings talking about asswopins maybe I just want to believe that there been too many times where I've seen a pretentious customer not get their ass beat for having a shitty attitude I often work on my researching

coffee shops and it's crazy how some people will talk to bristas. I would stand up and clap if the barista just fucking decked them in the face, dropped him to the ground. What a great life lesson and consequences. That would be for some people. Well, this is this manager who maybe, again, this is a field speculation about, you know, some association with the cops, maybe he was afraid to smack this guy because he knew who he was connected to.

He ended up telling Bible John that he could get a refund. But it would be easier if he came back the next day because all the tills were closed down. John was irritated about that, told the way. women as they headed out, my father says these places are dens of iniquity. They, the management, set fire to this place to get the insurance money and done it up with the money they got. His use of the word, iniquity also will help lead to his Bible John moniker, right? That word shows up frequently in biblical translations. Not all that popular at this time outside of it, or really ever. At one point, as they were leaving, Jean remembers looking over, seeing Helen and heard John

locked in some kind of quiet conversation. Helen shook her head in disbelief. John pulled out something from his jacket pocket showed it to her some kind of card, ID card maybe. Helen's attitude changed to surprise, acceptance, and John seemed pleased with himself. Gene asked to see the card, but John only tapped the side of his nose and said, You know what happens to nosy folk? Weird. His face was completely serious when he said that, and Gene felt intimidated by him. Gene told reporters she didn't think this John was in the military because Helen distrusted

servicemen. she trusted her estranged husband George but didn't trust other military men because she'd seen too much domestic abuse and infidelity in their marriages. Jean explained, I'm clear in my own mind that if the identification card

was that of someone in the armed forces, it would not have made one bit of difference to her she would mistrust them. The identification that was shown to her must have been something more authentic and I have my own thoughts on what it might have been because Helen wouldn't trust anyone

unless she believed they were something they were something that was official and definitely safe. This again, yeah, fuels law enforcement speculation. Gene's partner said goodbye to the group in order to catch a bus home outside of the club, leaving the two women alone with this mysterious second John. The trio get into a cab, start heading back to Scotson District of Glasgow, where Helen and Jean lived.

John seemed moody and aloof on the drive. Gene thought it was because, you know, he saw her as basically like a cockblock, an obstacle between him and Helen. All of them were interrupted because the taxi driver didn't know where he was going, had to ask for directions. Jean said she grew more and more uncomfortable during the ride home, but did her best to keep making light conversation. John would tell the sisters, his family, uh, had a caravan, an RV basically, in Irvin,

this little seaside town on the southwest coast of Scotland. Also told him he played golf, but had never gotten a hole in one. But a cousin had, a cousin of his, you know, recently did that. That's okay. I'm just fucking talking about random shit. also said he disapproved of married women going to the Barreland. When Helen and Jean told him that they were both married, he responded by referencing the Bible saying,

You know what happens to the adulterous wife? She gets stoned to death. That's fucking creepy. That's a real vibe killer of a statement on a night out. Not sure how you continue to push for a hookup after saying some weird shit like that. John said he was also an only child at one point. Then later said he had a sister. That's also a vibe-killing combination.

mentioned that alcohol was not allowed in his home when his sister came drunk one day that his parents refused to let her in Gene thought he regretted mentioning his sister tried to redirect the conversation to foster homes and foster children then. Right, because that's so much lighter and happier. Also said he knew

the fares and possibly the times for the buses and blue train services north of the river Clyde. Okay? How fucking long was this cab ride? Dude was all over the place talking about shit. Gene said that John was full of contradictions at night, that he told Helen and her I don't drink at Hogmanet, some Scottish term for New Year's Eve.

I pray, he said. This guy wasn't a killer. He was at the very least a fucking weirdo. He was very bad at flirting. Why would you say that on the night out with some women? Oh, you drink on New Year's Eve, huh? I don't. I stay home and stoically pray.

Okay. Despite that previous statement, he also claimed he was very familiar with several drinking establishments in the Yoker district. Also mentioned that he worked in a lab in Yoker. when Gene asked if he supported the Rangers or Celtics Glasgow's two big football teams He responded I'm agnostic

Fucking what You're just talking about biblical stuff Then soccer gets brought up And you're like I'm agnostic This dude had said so much shit And one taxi ride This should have ended any chance

That he ever went home with anybody At that time the taxi passed by an area of high-rise flats John muttered that his dad Or another relative once worked there That it was once a foster home John's level of local knowledge I guess he was right about this place being a foster home one point,

would lead investigators to think that he lived in the area and that he probably was a foster kid. Earlier in the night, John had implied that he did not smoke, but then during the ride, he pulls out a pack of cigarettes, offers one to Helen, but doesn't offer one to Gene, and then doesn't smoke one himself. Jesus fucking crisis is a weird cab ride. I would have fucking hated this guy.

Gene said it was becoming increasingly clear. He considered her presence in inconvenience. John insisted the taxi take her home first. even though she lived further away than Helen. When Jean got out, she started to tell Helen, I'll maybe see you next week, but then John closed door in her face. Taxi driver Alex Hannah was unfamiliar with the route to Helen's house, later told investigators that he had made some kind of couple wrong turns,

that Helen got frustrated with him, ended up just asked him to stop on Earl Street in a spot that was just a short walk to her place. Hannah said that the man, Bible John, was unable to pay the fare, so Helen paid, and then he got out with her. The taxi driver also knows that the man seemed upset. because Helen started to walk away from him immediately. He then ran and caught up with her and grabbed her.

And Hannah thought that what happened, what ensued was just like a normal quarrel between a romantic couple. Yeah, I wonder how he felt about all that when he heard what happened to her. The couple were dropped off sometime between 11.30 p.m. and midnight. Then two, two and a half hours later, around 2 a.m., a night service bus was traveling along nearby Dunbarton Road, picked up a man who appeared disheveled. He was covered in mud, had a red mark on his cheek, just below the eye, tried to tuck his loose shirt cuff, which was missing a cuff link into his jacket sleeve.

Remember that missing cuffling situation? Got off at the junction of Dunbarton Road in Derby Street. The same individual, almost certainly Bible John, seen by another witness walking in a determined manner along Dunbarton Road. The Texas went to the Barreland November 1st asked if anybody had information about Helen or who she left with. Jean was so distraught. It took some time before the police get a full detailed statement out of her,

but she would end up providing the most of the most of the most of the valuable information about the suspect to date. On November 4th, 1969, the Glasgow Herald reported Bible quoting man sought by murder hunt police. It was from this article that the term Bible John was born. Creepy-ass moniker for a serial killer. Reporter John Quinn claimed to be the first person to give the nickname specifically. Investigators also focused on finding Gene's dance partner who became known as Castle Milk John,

but he was never located. Author Paul Harrison tracked a gene down in 2003 when she was 66. For the first time ever, Harrison recorded Gene's full statement in print, which we covered earlier some of. Gene also told Harrison, I want a place on record a few things that matter a lot to me as they seem to get lost in the history of the case where it's all about a man known as Bible John. It has been suggested by some people, mainly cops, that I was off my head with alcohol on the night I shared the taxi home with Helen and her killer. some even say that I told some of the cops who talked to me about that night that I was drunk and could not be of much help to them or the investigation. That is wrong. They are deliberate lies. I said no such thing. Yes, I had a couple of drinks that evening, but nothing like enough to interfere with my ability to take in everything that was going on around me. The second matter I want to put right is very important to me and to Helen's own family. Helen has been portrayed in some of the books and stories about the case as a kind of loose woman.

anyone who knew her would confirm that nothing could be further from the truth. It is cruel and spiteful for anyone to suggest such a thing. I can categorically state that my sister was not any kind of scarlet woman, prostitute or woman of the night. We enjoyed dancing. It gave us an escape from our tedious everyday life. That is crazy to me that a lot of people just can't understand that a lot of other people, especially a lot of women in my observance, just like to dance, that they're not always hoping to go home with somebody. that is literally just fun to dance, hard stop. Right?

Maybe flirt a little bit, but not like go fuck. I feel like, again, at least in my observations or observance, that it's mostly dudes who have a hard time understanding this because a lot of dudes do go dancing, specifically in hopes of hooking up with somebody. They don't actually care about dancing for the sake of dancing. It's more of like a mating ritual, something they fucking put up with,

and then they project their own desires on the people that they are trying to hook up with. after Helen's murder it seemed undeniable to pretty much everybody paying attention which was everybody in Glasgow and more

that there was a link between these three murders as in a serial killer was on the loose the main theory was that the women were murdered because they refused to have sex with the killer

due to their periods I don't know about that it doesn't sound like Helen wanted to have sex with him you know it sounds like she wanted to get away from him maybe all three

scared women just told him that that they couldn't have sex to him because of their periods to get him to try and go away that it was some kind of Strange trigger for him then. Like a fucking shark smelling blood and water.

Gene helped the police create a second composite drawing with her description of Bible John. She also viewed the first sketch and agreed it was excellent and excellent likeness to the killer. Dean described him again as tall, slim and well-dressed. He wore a brown reed and tailor suit. He had reddish sandy or fair hair rounded at the back. He wore a military-style wristwatch with a broad leather strap and leather half-boots. He thought it was between 25 and 30, 5, 10, and 6 feet. had blue-gray eyes, two of his front teeth

overlapped. He was missing one of the teeth at the back, right side of his mouth. She also noticed he had a glass-weijian accent. For fuck's sake, where have you been? Sorry if it's causing an inconvenience. A new-on-a-half a fucking hour. I'm fucking a half a fucking re-on-a-half ago. I'm trying to get it going for a pint. I'm fucking only one to pizza.

You can have got one for Italy quicker and it's took you to fucking bring it. I go held up, man. Held up, you ain't your fucking dick turpin or something. Held fucking up. Sorry, man. I cut slice and pizza and all that. Not much else that I'm real sure about. Anyway, because the Bible John suspects,

hair was not cut fashion to me for the time. Over 450 hairdressers would be shown the updated drawing. Dentists would be asked, a whole bunch of dentists to examine their records to determine if they had records of a male patient with overlapping incisors, a missing tooth in the upper right jaw. None of these lines of inquiry would pan out. Meanwhile, undercover officers back at the Barrow Land looking for Bible John, the Evening Times reported two decades later in 1989.

other police officers would dance the night away at the barrel end. Their eyes searching the crowded dance floor trying to pick out one face amongst many. These officers would later become so proficient at dancing that they would be dubbed the Marine Police Formation dance team. Funky chicken. Gold James Ryan. Matt Tater. And, uh, Camelwock. I did this.

And yes, that was a clip taken from video of James Brown giving dance lessons. Thank you very much for asking. Back to the Times article. Meanwhile, suspicion and hysteria began to set in. The public became spirited in the hunt. Some perhaps too spirited, innocent men were badgered, chased, sometimes beaten, because they resembled the killer's description. That would fucking suck. That would suck to be your nice guy, right?

you're trying to enjoy night out, drink and dance away your troubles, and you just get your ass severely beaten because you happen to look like a composite sketch of a killer. A few days after Helen's murder, Detective Superintendent, Joe Beattie, the man at the helm of the investigation, we met much earlier, said in a press conference, don't put any suspicion out of your mind because so-and-so is a decent, well-mannered sort. I feel this man must be known. Someone, somewhere must recognize him. He might be the man next door, the man you danced with, the man you sat next to in church.

within a few days of the press conference over 600 people came forward with tips as people always do no matter how bad the tips are so many people always so desperately want to be right an active part of an investigation the police were so desperate for answers that they started to suspect their own or some of them started to suspect one of their own

because it fucking was one of their own various officers were interviewed all them were cleared I have a lot of information towards the end about possible cop involvement further panic ensued a little month over the after excuse me a little over a little over a month after the third woman was murdered one Sunday in December of 1969 when a young woman

failed to come home after a night out in Glasgow. The police made inquiries at the Majestic, where she was irregular. She'd been seen with the man who did resemble the Bible John sketch. Thankfully, she would turn up and explain that her car had just broken down. Trying to get home. June of 1970, eight months after the third murder, fear still high around town that the killer will strike soon. He had previously taken a year and a half off in between murders. Who was to say he wouldn't just kill out of the blue after taking a long period off. The police used the photo fit system to produce a better likeness of Bible John now, making this the first time

that method was used in Scotland, invented by facial topographer Jacques Penry. The physical photo fit kit contained thousands of individual black and white photographic pieces of real human facial features. Components would then be sorted into sections including eyes and eyebrows, noses, mouths, chins, ears, hairlines. Police officers or trained operators would sit with the

witness. asked them to pick matching parts from the collection, slotting them together in a special frame like a jigsaw puzzle, allowing for millions of unique face combinations without requiring an artist to ever draw a sketch. It's a pretty badass idea. Over 100 detectives were still working on the case full-time. 50,000 statements have been taken in door-to-door inquiries.

Over 5,000 suspects had already been questioned. Helen's sister Jean would attend over 300 suspect lineups. She was adamant each and every time, though, that none of the men she saw were Bible John. No further developments arose, and the investigation went cold again. Many believed or at least hoped that the killer had died,

maybe been arrested on an unrelated charge, was behind bars, perhaps was incarcerated in some psychiatric facility somewhere, not a bad fucking guess, or that senior officers knew his identity, but could not prove he committed the murders. Other speculated that he moved away. Copies of the composite drawing were circulated

at all British Army, Navy, and Air Force bases in the UK, Europe, middle and far east, but that failed to produce any leads. In 1972, Detective Superintendent Joe Beattie said, It is quite incredible that this man has alluded us. I am positive this man comes from Glasgow or nearby. He's between 25 and 30, between 5, 10, and 6 feet tall, has light red hair, good features, blue-gray eyes,

smart, modern appearance. I do not think he's a very religious man, but just has a normal, intelligent working knowledge of the Bible, which he likes to err. There must be many people who know someone who looks like this artist impression. No further murder victims in Scotland or the UK were ever conclusively attributed to Bible John in the ensuing years. There was also no uniform consensus amongst law enforcement that the three murders were definitely committed by the same person. They felt that the 18-month gap between the first two murders was unusual and that the last two murders may have been committed by the same person or two different copycat killers.

author Paul Harris found a woman who thought she survived another encounter with Bible John in 1972 over two years after the third murder. She told him that she had met a man in the Albert Ballroom, another Glasgow dance club, popular with dancers on Bath Street. No longer around, have been burned down in 1974. She said he was well-dressed in a dark suit. They wore a high-quality coat. She said she knew he gave her a false name because he slipped up later the night. He walked her home through Glasgow Cross and along London Road. she told him that she had four kids,

was separated from her husband, which seemed to anger him. He then asked if it was proper for her to be out dancing when she was still legally married. And for some fucking reason, she kept talking to him after that, maybe afraid to tell him to fuck off, right, and enrage him further

when she's out alone with him, walking home, probably. She told him that she loved her kids, but deserved a night out of her now and then. And when they got to the Bridgeton area, the man stopped and pointed to McKee Street. He said, there was a woman murdered there. then about 100 yards from her house

He tried to get her to go into a condemned building with him Sounds like Bible John I'd love to kill women close to where they lived After night out dancing for some sick reason The unarmed woman was stalling While she tried to figure out what to do next She stopped to light a cigarette The man then put his hands on the wall

In either side of her head Then suddenly put her hands on his hands on her throat And squeezed Only letting go when they heard people coming And then she need him in the balls Fuck yes And Hail Lucifina Ran towards the people approach

coaching, look back and then saw him stumbling away, flagging out an oncoming taxi, never reported this incident to the police, never saw him again. And before leaving the timeline now, to look at some of the suspects that have emerged over the years, I want to share why I love that knee to the nuts so much. I would just talk with my daughter Monroe about this as she gets ready to head to college now, which is here very soon. One of the best things I ever learned in some old Krav Maga classes was the practical advice to attack somebody's soft tissue joints and genitals in a street fight self-defense scenario, right? Because it's not about looking cool in that scenario.

You're not actually in a MMA fight. It's not about fighting fair. It's about winning, being able to walk away, unhurt, you know, about survival. No matter how tough some dude is, no matter how big and strong, no matter how skilled at MMA, he still has very sensitive balls.

Whether this dude benches 600 pounds or 100 pounds, his nuts, same amount of fragile and weak. Some dude might have the most vicious right cross in the history of punches. but also for sure has super soft weak little nuts because nuts don't give a fuck about that. His eyes still weak and vulnerable to front of his throat around the Adams apple

where his windpipe is still crushable. His nose, you know, various pressure points, very, very vulnerable, right? Don't try and punch somebody like that in the fucking head unless you have a very clean shot at their nose. Don't waste your time hitting him in the torso, right, the chest, don't kick the legs. If he's a big beefy motherfucker and or knows how to fight clearly,

best option balls. And if you can smash them repeatedly, do it. Smash them until they fucking fracture. Hit, conk, a kick, you know, stomp on his throat if you get a chance. If he's down after attacking you and struggling to breathe, but you're worried that he'll get back up and chase you down and then catch you if you just, you know, start running.

Well, is there a fucking rock nearby, a brick? Anything you can pick up and then smash down on his unprotected head or face? Are you wearing boots? You know, do it. Fracture that cheekbone. Dent that skull. keep smashing him, keep fucking stomping him until he's not going to get up,

right, until he's going to need ER doctors to piece him back together if they can even keep him alive. Best self-defense in extreme situations is brutally incapacitating somebody. Easier said than dead I know, and I've never been in that situation. I've never done it.

I hope if I'm in that situation, I follow my own advice, and I hope if you are, you do, so you can make it home alive. Feel no mercy for the person who tries to attack you. They do not deserve it, right? They have forfeited any rational plea

for compassion and quick forgiveness when they chose to do what they did. O'unk, dad advice over now. Let's hop out of this timeline, kids, and look at some suspects. Good job, soldier. You've made it back. Barely. While there are more minor suspects out there who've been pointed at by this or that person on a subreddit or elsewhere online, even occasionally in print, the following people are the prime

suspects from the early days of investigation and also from much more recent years. We'll start with John Edgar. Former Glasgow junior detective, Les Brown, claimed in 2005 that he had identified a likely suspect. But the suspect was dismissed because the man did not have the notably overlapping front teeth described by victim Helen Patok's sister Gene Langford. Brown suspect was found arguing with a young woman at the bearer land. He resembled the composite sketch of Bible John,

also gave the police a false name and address before revealing his real name of John, John Edgar. Years later, Brown was a good guy. speak to detective chief inspector Brian McLaughlin, who took John Edgar to the hospital. After arrest him outside of the bearer land at the time of the murders, Edgar needed stitches in his hand after an altercation. And at the hospital, the dude bolted. He escaped from custody as soon as the cuffs were off after he had given the name of a false name of John White. Same name he gave detectives in an earlier investigation.

After Brown wrote about his suspicions in a 2005 autobiography, a 63-year-old John Edgar came forward offered to provide DNA sample a DNA sample which led to his elimination though as a suspect. So why had he lied to try and escape? Well, odds are because he was out of the Barreland on a Thursday night or even if not a Thursday night he's, you know, out stepping out on his wife,

really didn't want to get caught, deal with the fallout of a possible divorce, years of spousal and child support payments, didn't want to deal with the shame and guilt of getting caught, didn't want to get kicked out of his home, you know, blah, blah, blah. Investigators would talk about how hard it was to get anybody they interviewed from the Barreland, to be fully honest, because they didn't want to

discriminate themselves because so many of them were there to step out on somebody. Or at least there were a word, that would be the perception. In 1983, Lancashire contractor, Harry Wiley, Lancashire being a county in just east of Glasgow, contacted the Strathclyde police, claimed that his friend David Henderson was Bible John. He noted that he and Henderson grew up in the Cranhill District of Glasgow, and that he and David would both frequent the Barrowand in the late 60s,

including on those infamous Thursday nights. Wiley had read an article in the Evening Times five years prior, before he made his call, just kept weighing on him, weighing on him. David Henderson was traced to the Netherlands where he had moved after marrying a Dutch woman. The police would question him extensively and then eliminate him as a suspect.

Gene Langford did not think he looked like the killer. If he really isn't Bible John, it probably isn't. What a day he had? When he found out that his old drinking buddy thought he was a serial raper and murderer of women, That couldn't have been amazing for self-esteem. Imagine if a good friend of yours, reported you to the police as a suspect and something like that.

Do you ever get over that? Do you remain friends? Right? I doubt it. Oh, come on, dude. Are you still salty over me thinking you were Bible John and having some detectives question you in front of your wife? I love you, man.

I just, you know, I could see you doing that, you know? No offense. But I could just see you sneaking out to a club alone and flirting with, but also insulting some woman that you wanted to rape and kill outside of their house. No offense, man. I said no offense. God damn, you're sensitive. Don't fucking...

Don't kill me. Don't kill me. Come on. I'm just joking. Just trying to lie in the mood. I don't actually think you would kill me. You know, I'm not a young woman. I don't fit your creepy-ass MO.

Bible John, probably not one of those guys. However, many have been convinced that our next suspect is Bible John. In 1995, as forensic science is evolving. A small DNA sample was able to be recovered from the waistband of Helen Patox tights, and this new evidence led to the case being reopened, 26 years after the last known murder. The DNA bore resemblance to samples from two siblings, Jane and Hector McKinness, which led the police to look into a fellow officer, John McKinness, a man who was the cousin of one of the original suspects, and also related to a senior police officer who had been working the original case.

Jean Langford had not picked John McKinness out of numerous lineups, though, and would maintain that he was not Bible John. The DNA bore resemblance to samples from two siblings, Jane and Hector McKinness, which led the police to look into John McKinness, a guy who was a cousin of one of the officers originally worked in the case, and this cousin was basically best friends

with the head investigator on the original case. Gene Langford had not picked John McKinness out of a lineup, would maintain that he was not Bible John. However, had she been drinking the night a lot more than she admitted in interviews and years since, right that's some speculation there it's of course possible to lie to make oneself look better is to be human John Irvin McKinnis

I think I said his name the first time there's kind of some shitty sources out there about him but some good ones too born in the village of Stonehouse lived in Newart Hill just barely outside of Glasgow to the east he preferred to go by his middle name of Irvin also grew up in a very religious family

was introduced to the Plymouth Brethren sect of Christianity a hardcore sect very serious about no drinking No dancing, no smoking, and so much more, right? No fucking fun. God wants you to toil in misery, to suffer, to abstain, and then maybe still end up burning alive forever and ever amen. Praise God. What a good kind, loving God.

As an adult, McKinness also had been a military man at one time. Was, as I mentioned, interrogated about the murder of Helen Petuck, I think I mentioned that. He was, you know, said to be in the lineup when he's around 29, but quickly dismissed as a suspect. A dozen years later, now 41-year-old. McKinness dies by suicide. April 30, 1980, he had cut the brachial artery in his upper arm and bled out.

Guilty conscience, maybe. McKinness buried in a shared plot with his mother at a cemetery in South Lancarkshire. His remains exhumed on February 1st, 1996, so investigators could extract a DNA sample. Test results were inconclusive. Then McKinness, officially cleared by the Crown, July 3rd. 1996. As reported by the Harold Scotland signs, it's concluded that DNA taken from McKinness's thigh bone

was likely but not 100% for sure different from the DNA taken from Helen Patux-Tit's Tights, but that DNA was degraded and other similar DNA taken from the same source. The report stated, due to the age and bad state of preservation of the biological

evidence, particularly at the semen stain, we concluded that there is not sufficient evidence from the current DNA information to link John McKinness to the scene to the murder of Helen Petuck. The results of these DNA analyses provide no evidence to suggest that the semen stain or hair left near the body of Helen Patuck originated from John McKinness. A professor of oral pathology also concluded that the bite mark comparisons to the bite wound

on Helen's wrist were inconclusive that McKinness might have made the marks, but maybe didn't, but again, because of the age of the evidence, it was hard to tell now. So just a big maybe. The crown would also state that the DNA profiling did. not demonstrate a provable link between the semen stain and the family of McKinnis. Not provable. Again, due to DNA from the semen stain being degraded. In 2004, police announced plans to genetically test several men. This occurred after investigators obtained a DNA sample from a minor crime committed around 2002, which was an 80% genetic match to the Bible John

degraded DNA sample, indicating the more recent DNA sample was related to the killer. A number of original suspects were asked to provide DNA samples every male connection to the family tree was going to be tested. In 2005, advancements in DNA technology would again not lead to the killer, though. And they would further prove that John McKinness, probably not the killer, but not definitively ruled out. So, you know, John or Irvin McKinness, maybe, maybe not Bible John. More on him much later. 17 additional years later in 2022, Helen's widow, George Patuck told the times that he wanted the DNA,

retested with that year's more advanced technology. He also expressed his beliefs that Helen was killed by former time-sug subject, Peter Sutcliffe, who was in Glasgow at the time. The Yorkshire Ripper was convicted of killing 13 women and of trying to kill seven others. All those crimes occurred well after the Bible John murders, though, between 1975 and 1980. However, he did nearly kill a sex worker in 1969, but she declined to press charges. But he was also a lot more violent than Bible John. He committed some pretty, pretty horrific mutilations of his victims.

despite George's suspicion, Peter Sutcliffe never a serious suspect in the Bible John Killings. And then George would die in November of 2022. Next suspect. In June of 2024, Australian author-historian, genealogist Jill Bavin-Missie published her book, Bible John, a new suspect, bringing light another person of interest, a former printer named John Templeton,

who had died in 2015 at the age of 70. Bob and Mitzi identified Templeton as the alleged killer based on DNA analysis. Templeton had family ties and shared a good chunk of his DNA profile with prior suspect John McKinness. Bob and Mizzy told Edinburgh live, I'm 100% convinced John Templeton is Bible John. The circumstantial evidence is so weighty it would be a mathematical impossibility for it not to be Templeton. Very confident, strong words. Is this our guy? Bob and Mizzi tracked Templeton down by examining the least.

lineage of John McKinness. She explained the name John Templeton exists among the ancestors of Hector and Janet McKinness, siblings whose DNA samples share patterns with the DNA profile from the semen's stain on Helen Stockings. I was fortunate to find well-documented genealogical records for the McKinness family. I realized

the killer had likely used his real name when he introduced himself to Helen and Jeannie, the night in the Barreland Ballroom. Templeton's age, height and hair coloring fit the description of the suspect. He was also definitely a foster child, as police suspected the killer was. was. Bob and Mizzy would speak to Templeton's ex-wife, who met him at another nightlife spot in Glasgow, the majestic ballroom that we've mentioned. They married in early August of 1969, days before the second murder, then relocated to North Kelvin's side, Glasgow.

They divorced in 1974, had no kids. The ex-wife produced a photo of Templeton from 1967 that does bear a strong resemblance to the composite sketch. You know, the sketch looks quite a bit like him. Also disclosed the Temple's. was questioned by the police six months after the murder of Helen Patuck, but he was not re-interviewed or ever included in a lineup. Dental analysis of Templeton's photo also led Bob and Mitzie to believe that Templeton had the overlapping teeth and missing tooth characteristic of Bible John, so that seems promising. Templeton was fostered in Glasgow as a kid. Bible John pointed out the location of a foster home in the city.

Finally, a detail I did not disclose before. One of the times when final victim, Helen Patuck's sister, Jean Langford, was asked to try and remember the last name of Bible John. Remember she said she kind of heard the last part, like it was something like Sun or but she didn't hear it clearly over the music, wasn't paying super close attention because she assumed he was lying. Well,

long, long before Bob and Mitzie ever claimed that John Templeton was Bible John, she did guess Gene did, that his name could have been Emerson, Sempleson, or Templeton. So there is a lot of shit pointing to the possibility this guy being the guy. But Scottish authorities don't seem as convinced

as Bob Mizzy that he is the guy they have not mentioned him in any official capacity outside of acknowledging that they received a copy of Jill's book back in 2024 and said they would, you know, look into it. Since it's been two years with no more news about him, I'd be surprised if he were ever named the killer despite her claims.

Wish I knew why the authorities don't think he's Bible John. As certain as she is that John Templeton is the guy, others are just as certain, if not more certain, that a dude named Peter Tobin is the real Bible John. Scottish man who went to prison for murdering three other women decades later. Peter Tobin, let's talk about him. A 23-year-old Polish woman, Angelica Kluke, went missing in September of 2006.

Angelica, a student of Cadangst University of Technology in Poland, she had decided to spend the summer working in Scotland to fund her language studies and was working as a caretaker or custodian of sorts at St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Church in the Anderson area of Glasgow. Her boyfriend reported her missing September 24th. Authorities soon identified Pat McLaughlin, the church is handyman as a person. of interest in her disappearance. When Pat spoke to the police, he told him Angelica was his wee apprentice and was helping him pain to shed the day she went missing.

Hours after he was questioned, he then vanished. Pat's picture was released to the media within a few days and a woman called the police claiming that Pat McLaughlin was actually Peter Tobin, a convicted criminal who'd been missing for almost a year. Authority searched the church on September 29th, 2006. Somebody noticed an imperfection in the floor, which led to the discovery of a 28 by 18 inch hatch covering access to a vault, inside the vault, Angelica

Klux remains. Poor Angelica had been bound and gagged, then raped, beaten with a piece of wood, then stabbed in the chest 16 times before being sealed down beneath the floor. Forensic evidence suggested she was still alive when she was locked underneath the floor, that motherfucker.

The DNA from the crime scene, a positive match for Peter Tobin. Back in 1994, he'd been sentenced to 14 years in prison for a double rape and assault in Haven't, Hampshire, down on England's southern coast near the Isle of White. He was out of prison by October of 2005, lived in the Scottish town of Paisley. As a registered sex offender, he was required to report his movements, but in October of 2005, he left without informing the police. Neighbor also claimed he attacked her around that time. What?

A sexually violent person continues to attack people? No fucking way. Tobin fled town. Hadn been seen since. Luckily, in early October of 2006, after fleeing under the alias of Pat McLaughlin, a nurse at a London hospital recognized Tobin, who checked in under a new alias of James Kelly under a false complaint.

He was arrested in charge with breaching the terms of the sex offenders register, which gave officers time to build a murder case against him for the death of Angelica Cluke. Within days of his arrest, the Strathclyde police launched Operation Anagram, which they kept top secret to avoid media leaks that could prejudice the Angelica Cluc case.

Their goal was to chronicle Tobin's life in crimes, a difficult task considering that he had had up to 60 addresses and up to 40 aliases. Officers also linked him to 38 cell phone SIM cards. God damn, that's sneaky, creepy fuck. David Swindle, who led Operation Antigrant, very unfortunate name for the leader of an investigative operation. Mr. Swindle believed Tobin killed multiple women. But can we trust him?

Can we trust Mr. Swindle about anything, really? Mr. Swindle explained, when I saw the injuries on her Angela Kluk, I thought he has done this before. You don't get to that age and kill for the first time. Swindle told BBC Scotland I can't get over his name. The concept of

Anagram was basically to look at Tobin as a serial killer. The only way we could do that was to look at his life and where he had been over the years and start to build up a timeline. Well, Peter Tobin born August 27th, 1946 in Scotland in John Stone Renfrewshire.

He was a troubled child, was in reform, school by the age of seven. As a teen, he committed a number of petty crimes such as theft and forgery. And in the late 60s, Tobin, a known regular at the Barreland. 1969, the year of two of the Bible John murders, he met his future wife there. 17-year-old Margaret Mountaine when he was 22, excuse me, they married in August 6 of that year. Another Maggie. God, they love that name of Scotland. I fucking love that name, too. So is this guy Bible John? I don't think so. Authorities looking to connect Tobin to the Bible John. murders discovered that he and Maggie moved

from Glasgow to Brighton 10 days before the murder of Jamima McDonald. The second Bible John victim. Investigators working on Operation Anagram found that Tobin actually living in Brighton, England, during the time of the first two murders. Could he have traveled back up to Glasgow? Is possible, or I guess he wasn't Brighton the first,

during the first two murders. However, Tobin's DNA would be compared to the Bible John Seaman sample as part of Operation Antigram and proven to not be a match. Definitely fucking creepy. though. Tobin's marriage to Maggie ended when he was arrested on burglary and forgery charges. He spent three years in jail

beginning to 1970, got out in 1973. Maggie would later say that Tobin was abusive and raped her during their marriage, that the fucking psycho once cut their puppy's throat because it annoyed him because it was yelping. After getting out of jail, he would, Bojangles, not a fan.

Bojangles would like to eat him alive if he was around still. After getting out of jail, he would return to Brighton, meet 30-year-old Sylvia Jeffries, a nurse, they would marry be married for three years. Still be later reported. Tobin tried to strangle her. 1986, now 40-year-old Tobin, married 16-year-old Kathy Wilson, like a fucking winner.

Not like a loser, creep at all. They had a son named Daniel. 1990, they moved to Bathgate, town in Scotland, about halfway between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Kathy would flee with Daniel soon afterwards, claiming Tobin was violent with her as well. Yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that probably most 40-year-old dudes who marry 16-year-old girls are abusive.

Part of the lure there has got to be control, right? That deep, beta male, fragile little boy pretending to be a big man desire for female submission. For work, Tobin traveled around Scotland during this time fitting insulation panels. Then on August 4th, 1993, the now 47-year-old Tobin attacked two 14-year-old girls inside his flat and haven't. Of course that creepy fucked it. The girls went to the housing complex to visit a neighbor who was not home, then stopped at Tobin's flat, ask if they could wait there. Tobin told him, yeah, sure, that once they were inside, held a knife to them, forced him to drink alcohol before he assaulted, raped both of them, stabbed one of the girls in the wrist and the presence of his own son.

When he was done with his sexual violence, after he had beaten both girls very badly, he turned on the gas stove without lighting it, left them to die, but they would survive. Tobin then went into hiding, joined a religious sect in Coventry called the Jesus Fellowship. Oh, fuck yeah. Oh, forgiveness. Even when that forgiveness flies in the face of all common sense and fucking decency. No, do the world of favor. Send them to God as soon as possible. See if God wants to forgive him. Tobin didn't...

Maybe he didn't tell them what he did. But who knows? Tobin didn't stay hidden too long. He was found and arrested in Brighton, where he pled guilty, May 18th, 1994, would then proceed to serve a decade in prison. Tobin was released on parole, May of 2004, moved to the sizable town of Paisley,

just outside of Glasgow. Three years later, May 3, 2007, Tobin jailed for life for the murder of Angelica Kluk. now behind bars for good The Antigram team compared his previous movements with unsolved cases which strongly did link Tobin

to the disappearance of 15-year-old Vicki Hamilton who went missing while waiting for the bus in Bathgate February 10th, 1991 Vicki said goodbye

to her sister at a bus stop in Livingston, 15 miles west of Edinburgh 30 miles east of Glasgow she took the bus to Bathgate where she purchased a snack then set off to catch the bus to her home

in the little village of Reading 11 days later Vicki's purse found in a gutter in St. Andrews Square in Edinburgh. May 5th, 2007, Tobin questioned about the murder of Vicki Hamilton after detectives realized Tobin lived just a mile from the bus stop where she was last seen. Authorities knew that on March 21, 1991, Tobin moved from his home in Bathgate to Irvine Drive, Margate. Authorities also linked Tobin to the disappearance of 18-year-old Dinah McNichael last seen August 6, 1991. Dinah and her friend David Tremlett had hitchhike home from a music festival in a lip-hook, Hampshire, The driver who had a Scottish accent

dropped David off near Junction 8 of the M25 at Ryegate, Surrey. Dinah remained in the car. Peter was still living in his home in Mardiate at the time. His neighbor, David Martin, thought he seemed like a normal guy, but did notice him digging a fucking huge

grave-sized hole in his garden one day. Peter told him he was just digging a sandpit for his son to play in when he came over on the weekends, but then two days later, the hole was filled in and flattened. June 4, 2007, police searched Tobin's former home in Bathgate found a knife in the rafters that contain traces of Vicky Hamilton's DNA. Tobin charged with the murder of Vicky, July 21st. On October 3rd, authorities searched Tobin's home in Hampshire.

November 2007, the police began searching the garden of Tobin's home in Margate for the body of Dyne McNichael. November 12th, they discovered the remains of Vicky Hamilton buried under his old concrete patio. Dinah's remains found soon afterwards. Authorities believed that Tobin, when he moved from Bathgate to Margate, he took Vicky's remains with him in the back of his van, then cut her body into, wrapped it in the curtain and trash bags. Vicky had been raped, possibly strangled before her body was dismembered. Tobin's DNA found on a plastic bag that contained her upper torso, his son's DNA found

on Vicki's purse, right? Kid probably played with it. An antidepressant with sedative effects found in Vicki's liver. He almost certainly drugged her. Dina bound and gagged before she was killed. Tobin's prints found on some of the bags used to wrap her body. She had traces of an antidepressant, sleeping pills and cannabis in her liver. Tobin had also stolen over 2,000 pounds from her savings account. Nasty shit, but a different kind of murder than the ones Bible John committed. On December of 2008, Tobin was convicted of the murder of Vicki Hamilton's sentenced to 30 years. He was due to stand trial for the murder of dynamic nickel in 2009.

That same year, the police released photos of 32 pieces of jewelry that were in Tobin's possession between 1991 and 2006. His ex-wives claimed that the jewelry was not theirs, leading police to suspect they were they were trophies from other victims. More searches were done in 2010, but nothing of note would be found. Tobin reportedly bragged, though, about committing dozens and dozens

of rapes and murders in prison because he's such a fucking cool dude, but refused to make an official statement. In a recorded interview, this awesome human said, I couldn't give a fuck about the families. Cool, cool, cool. Peter Tobin would die in October 5th,

2020, taking his secrets with him. But again, due to what I already stated, I just wanted to finish a story. One of those secrets, probably not that he was Bible John. However, Joe Jackson was a detective who was convinced Peter Tobin was Bible John. Jackson was one of the original investigators who went undercover at the dance halls back in 68 and 69. Jackson saw Tobin on TV in 2006 after Angelica Cluke's body was found

and he said, I thought, this is as good as you're going to get. I said to myself, this guy fits the bill. In February of 2018, Jackson told STV News, it's my own informed opinion that Bible John is now locked up. I would say that probably we do know who he was, I think he was Tobin. According to Jackson, if you look at Tobin's background, and you look at the way the murders happened, and you look at Tobin's reaction, anybody with half a brain who was a murderer would look and say, I can't go to dance halls anymore in Glasgow. I've got to get out of Glasgow.

So that's why I think the murder stopped in Glasgow at that time. Some sources I've read, such as some journalists from the Scotsman, have said that when you compare photos of a young Peter Tobin to the composite sketch used to try and catch Bible John back in 69. It's fucking uncanny. how much he resembles it. I have looked at side by sides of these images.

It actually is kind of crazy. But, I don't know. This guy had a very, this sketch, you know, this guy, excuse me, had a very common young, white Scottish dude look. I think John Templeton actually looks more like the sketch, though. The key witness in the case,

Jean Langford died in September of 2010 at the age of 74. Interestingly, Jean's oldest son, Paul Carroll, claimed after her death that five days before she died, she did identify. Peter Tobin is the killer. However, that claim dismissed by the family, rest of the family, who said Paul was a

bullshitter, a fantasist. The family admitted that Gene previously mentioned suspect John McKinness, but not Tobin. Family also said that Gene occasionally made comments about the case over the years, but actually didn't talk about it much overall because it was difficult for her. So based on everything we know, not Peter Tobin. So who the fuck was Bible John? This guy? My name's Kevin Patterson and I'm a guide on the river Tweed Lake.

We're standing here down in the borders. We're just outside Melrose, which is a famous town. Over the back of us here, we've got the Ealdons, one of the most famous landmarks in the borders. It's three hills. And the myth is that Merlin and magicians split one hill into three and the left of two hills. I think I'm getting better.

I think I understood about 70% of what he said. I'm adapting. John Templeton seems to be the most likely suspect to a lot of people, maybe, maybe a slight lead over John McKinness, the dude who died at the age of 70 over a decade ago in 2015. No one has ever come forward to say that they knew that man was violent, though. And I think this is big. Australian author, historian and genealogist,

Jill Bovin Mizzy, was not able to find any evidence that John Templeton had ever been arrested for literally anything, let alone something violent. What are the odds that that guy raped and violently killed three women? women he was last seen in public with, women he used his real name with over the course of, you know, less than two years,

then he just never rapes and or kills again ever for the next 46 years. Or at the very least, never gets caught, never has any victim's bodies be found, killed in a way that points to more Bible John killings, not impossible, but highly unlikely. I mean, Jill, Bob and Mizzy wrote a whole book on him. I didn't read it, but I didn't skim it,

looking for big, important aha moments. And I can tell that she did, you know, a lot of thorough research, very academic, you know, a lot of strong research. But other than the fact that, you know, he lived near the third victim, was a regular at the Barreland, shares some DNA characteristics with the DNA found in the third victim and does really look like a lot like the composite sketch, which is quite a bit granted. There's no people from his past who are like, oh, yeah, he was a fucking creep. Or he had a lot of anger towards women.

Or he once put his hands on me. I was so scared. Like nothing. Nothing like that at all. And again, no arrests. could he have killed three times or one of those times then gotten so scared he was going to get caught that he just completely changed his life up

and never did anything like that again and make it again it's possible but you know we've studied so many serial killers here that doesn't seem to be how they operate if that is the case that's the creepiest possibility maybe that somebody could go that dark for a while and then just like snap out of it

blend right back into society for a long no run-ins with a law life that they could be Bible John for a couple years then just be your neighbor never raise any alarm bells because if that person could turn it off for that long

I mean could they just randomly turn it back on at some point the investigation into Bible John is still open if he wasn't John Templeton or John McKinnis I will have a little bit more information about McKinness before we shut this down

I don't think we'll never ever know who he was if the police did help hide his identity like some think like I will talk about a little bit if he had some connection to some local cops and that hasn't been uncovered by now

over five and a half decades later I mean we're probably never conclusively fucking know for sure who did it that makes these unsolved serial killer cases more disturbing than solved ones you know that somebody could kill these women and just get away with it

and then just keep living their life keep walking the same streets sleeping in the same bed maybe next to the the wife you know maybe kissing her you know good night kissing their kids good night being a good dad

being a good neighbor you know just a fucking guy who just completely blends in. That's so disturbing because I think it makes, you know, so many of us wonder, definitely me, you know,

who's in my orbit right now that could be this person? Who could have done something that horrible? You know, and I just, for some reason, I just can't see it in that. Ugh.

Time for the takeaways. Time shock. Top five takeaways. Number one, Bible John is the name of an unidentified serial killer who murdered three women in Glasgow in 1968,

1969, at least one, maybe the others were copycat killings. No other murders have been conclusively attributed to Bible John, and over five decades on, the killer remains unidentified. This case haunts Glasgow, and is a case that will likely never be fully resolved. Number two, all three of the victims were mothers who, more than anything else, just wanted to escape the stress of their daily life and joy a night out dancing. But then their lives, what little was left to them, got so much more stressful when they

encountered the monster known as Bible John. The victims were all killed in the same manner. showing that they were likely killed by the same serial killer with the same ammo. They were beaten, assaulted, strangled, very close to their homes. All three menstruated at the time of their deaths. And in two cases, the victim's menstrual pads had been placed near their bodies. Killer had also taken their purses as a likely trophy. Although there are some doubts, most investigators do feel confident these murders were committed by the same individual.

Number three, the key witness in the case is or was Jean Langford, now deceased. the sister of victim Helen Patak. Gene and Helen went out to the bare land, paired up with two men who called themselves John, both of them. A lot of John's, lot of maggies in this episode. Helen's dance partner was mysterious, rude, and standoffish. During their, according to Jean, during the ride home from the dance hall,

he was a judgey, talked about how according to the Bible, married, adulterous women should be stoned. He revealed unusual details about himself, made it clear he was interested in getting Helen alone. Gene had an up-close, extended interaction. action with the man was able to provide a detailed description of the suspect. Once she got out of the cab for the night, she watched her sister right off with John and then never saw her live again.

Number four, during the investigation, undercover officers sent to the popular dance halls in Glasgow, many Glasgowwegians, very suspicious of the police and stopped attending, leading to a brief dip in the local economy. Some of the undercover officers might have enjoyed themselves a bit too much the dance halls. For example, one group became so good at dancing. They got called the Marine Police Formation dance team. I'm going to sing my song that goes like this. Number five, new info, evidence of a cover-up, perhaps.

Guardian journalist Audrey Gillian, who we met briefly at the beginning of this episode, or yeah, Jillian has been reporting on the Bible John murders for years. She was given the original police notes back in 1996. Gillian admitted that she made the mistake of making the victims more of a footnote than the focus of the original story, and she hoped to rectify that with the BBC podcast series titled Bible John creation of a serial killer, which explored the stories of the victims. The series also made the shocking claim that police chiefs intentionally covered up the identity of Bible John.

Once again, John Irvin McKinness comes up as the prime suspect. Gillian spoke to senior detectives, detective chief inspector Jim McEwen, and Detective Constable Brian Hughes, who reopened the case in 1995. McEwen and Hughes said that they found evidence that John McKinness was the man in the taxi with Helen Petuck and her sister, and they believed a prosecutor would have issued a warrant for his arrest if he had been alive in 1995. They believe senior police chief, Joe Beattie, the guy who led

the original investigation, that he kept McKinness's name out of the investigation because he was good friends with McKinness's cousin, Jimmy McKinness. The two had worked together as young detectives were very close. Jim McEwen and Brian Hughes said their first major concern was why the team of

detectives, including Joe Beattie, went to Stonehouse in Lancarkshire where John McKinness lived two days after Helen Patuck's body was found. they wondered why officers took McKinness to a small police office in Hamilton and not to the Glasgow station. They found inconsistencies in the recording of identity parades, aka in-person lineups. And they believed, and this is huge of true, that Gene Langford never saw John McKinness in a lineup but was told she was. Right.

Earlier I said that she saw him and ruled him out. But did she only think that she saw him because that's what she was told? Right. If the police presented some other dude is John McKinness, that means that they thought he was the fucking guy. Right? Because why else would they fucking go so far to cover that up? There had to been more to it than him just being the fucking cousin of the best friend of the lead investigator, right? Was he part of something that would incriminate a bunch of them? But if that was true, why not kill him?

What the fuck was really going on? Well, the taxi driver who transported the suspect was never asked to identify John McKinnis, never shown his photo. But when the 1995 review team showed him the photo then, he was sure he was the guy. A former bouncer at the Barrowland also viewed making his sense. his photo, not giving it back in the late 60s, and then he believed, yeah, that was the guy that left with the girls that night. Gene, however, unsure when she viewed the photo, but would say to a family later in private that she did think it was him.

Brian Hughes and Detective Constable Willie Lindsay went to visit Joe Beattie, who was hospitalized at the time. Beattie recalled taking the trip to Stonehouse but could not remember the suspect's name, he said. He said the man was shown to Gene, but she failed to pick him out. the team then talked to Jimmy McKinness, whom they described as a big lad who was very aggressive, right?

This is the suspect's cousin. He claimed he didn't really work on the inquiry into Helen's murder and help with the phones for about two to three months during the investigation, but not much. He did confirm the suspect, you know, was his cousin, John McKinness, but they couldn't actually find John's name

in the archive files. According to Detective Jim McEwen, quote, he doesn't appear anywhere in the initial statements. It was us that uncovered him. John Irvin McGinnis does not appear in the 1969 inquiry anywhere.

But there's all these rumors that he was, you know, looked at closely. The 1995 team reviewed the case file, found more inconsistencies, and lost evidence. For example, they found a card with the name of Moyland's Furniture Store, which is where John McKinis worked at that time. Hughes and McEwen thought the card was found at the crime scene, then was lost or removed. That's fucking big. Maybe that's the card he showed, you know, Helen, that night. The card is like, hey, you know, I know I do work at this place.

I'm a good guy. I work at this furniture store. this is my real name. According to Hughes, we could find no sign of that card in the archive. There was nothing. The 1995 detectives

visited Joe Beattie six times the man again, the man who was in charge of the initial Bible John investigation. During their last visit, they said they found him crying in his hospital beds shortly before he dies.

Detective Hughes said the last thing he asked Beattie was, did you cover up for John McKinness? BD reportedly said, we asked the questions, we never wrote anything down, because we just asked the questions. And then he just shook his head.

And the tears were coming from his eyes in his hospital bed. And the Detective Hughes said, and we walked out and we just knew. Like they just fucking knew that he did cover for him. In 2023, some family members of the victims revealed they were contacted by police Scotland

because of the BBC series. Jemima McDonald's son, Alan Motley said, when the police officer phoned and said they were going to reinvestigate, that was a bit of a bombshell. I never imagined that they would get to this and that they would re-look at it all.

excuse me. I'm not expecting that much, to be honest. They might openly admit these murders were not investigated properly in the first place, and we might get an apology over the way they were investigated. A spokesperson for Police Scotland issued a statement said, we are assessing the contents of a recent podcast in consultation with the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. The murders of Helen Patok, Jamima McDonald, and Patricia Docker remain unsolved. However, as with all unresolved cases, they are subject to review. And any new information about the deaths will be investigated. The Times reported that since Police Scotland issued their statement, police had not spoken to the families or contacted officers who made the allegations. Patricia's son Alex Docker said, the podcast contains revelations about the process of the original investigation and the conduct of the characters involved. This should and must be addressed. I firmly believe that no such individual would fit the character described as Bible John.

Also, the story overtook reality long ago, rendering the investigation fatally flawed and removing any chance of justice for Patricia, Jim Mima and Helen. Furthermore, the narrative continues. New revelations arise almost annually. I would like to stop this. I realize the story has a life of its own and may well live on despite anything coming to light. I am not filled with any anger towards the characters involved. The 1960s were a different time. No CCTV cameras, no DNA analysis. Forensic science was in its infancy. They did the best with the tools they had at a difficult time in Glasgow's history. That said, I think conclusions were drawn that the evidence could not justify and that there was

also a palpable sense of desperation in the investigation that appeared to lead to questionable handling of evidence, witnesses, and suspects. I politely ask that police Scotland dig deeper, admit, admit failings, where there are any, and revisit any old conclusions that they have. That would help in achieving the closure needed by all involved. So was John McKinnis Bible John, right, that heavily degraded DNA sample that was taken from a semen stain left on the tights of Bible John's final victim, Helen Patuck, it provided no conclusive match, rendering the results legally inconclusive,

but it wasn't a definitive forensic elimination. If the DNA was not degraded, would the match been perfect? Was that why, you know, the lead investigator was covering for him? Because he fucking knew his best bud and fellow cop's cousin did do it. But why cover something that fucked up for that reason?

What else is? is there to this story. This might be all we ever know. Time suck. Top five takeaways. Bible John, Glasgow's dancing killer, has been sucked.

What a mystery. Thank you to the Bad Magic Productions team for all their help and making time suck. Thanks to Queen of Bad Magic, Lindsay Cummins. Helping this past decade so fucking much. Thanks also to Logan Keith

doing so much his past decade, almost past decade. Helping to publish his episode, designing merch for the story, at bad magic productions.com. Thank you to Olivia Lee for her research. Did a great job. Also, thanks to the all-seeing eyes.

They've been around for most of this decade. Moderating the cult of the curious private Facebook page. Thanks to the long-running mod squad, keeping your discord fun. Thanks to everybody over on the TimeSuck and Bad Magic subredits. And now let's head on over to this week's Time Sucker Updates. Our first update this week, from those sent in to Bojangles at Timesugpodcast.com

a sweet and inspirational meat sack, Monica Mirafloor, who sent in a message with a simple subject line of a thank you. Hi, Dan, Lindsay, and Logan, plus the whole bad magic crew. First off, I wanted to say thank you so much for creating this community. It is so refreshing to hear someone with similar views cut through the bullshit going on currently. I also wanted to say that listing to TimeSuck and all of the other updates about suckers going back to school to earn degrees has been helpful. I had a rough childhood and my stepmother kicked me out the literal week. I graduated high school, and I've been tinkering with the idea of going back to get my bachelor's.

I turned 30 this year and applied to my local community college for their medical lab science degree, which will open up so many doors for me, as my current job is that of a lab assistant. Currently taking intro to chemistry, and it is kicking my butt, and I know the material is going to get much harder, but I keep telling myself, I can do it. Suffering from depression and anxiety and a high likelihood of autism makes it hard for me to reach out for help, even when I need it. But hearing the whole time so community share their wins reminds me that I am just as capable. and intelligent. So I wanted to share this little message in case it gets read on the pod.

Anyone is capable of doing what they set their mind to. Thanks again. Keep on sucking. Monica, Mirroflore. Monica, you are capable and intelligent. You're already working at a medical lab. So you know what the job that you want entails.

You're right there. You're standing right next to it. The only thing, you know, between you and the job you want is this degree that you're already pursuing. You've already proven that you can get a degree. You did that when you graduated high school. you proved that you could do it while dealing with a lot of noise

in the background based on what little you mentioned about your home life I am sure this class and others will be hard but you have the internet a giant and vast library of not just bullshit and ignorant hot takes from confident narcissists

and grifters but also tons of educational tools including tutorials, good ones and fucking everything pretty much you can think of so if you don't want to reach out to any people for help reach out to the web

you're going to do it if you run into a detour just don't stop You know, reroute. If you fail a class, take it again. Persevere, be tenacious. As I get older and I learn from my own failures and successes and accumulate more stories of failures and successes from the people around me

and just the people I read about, you know, throughout history. I just, you know, see that just not giving up is perhaps the most important factor regarding success because everybody encounters obstacles, bumps in the road, right? Unexpected obstacles. Some encounter many more than others. but then the people who really want it, they get where they get because they refuse to give up.

They refuse to quit. And they choose to believe in themselves, even when the outside world doesn't sometimes. So I believe in you, Monica. I wish you nothing but the best. Hail Lucifina. And now an important update to some comments I made in the Mary Kasuk from an anonymous ethical entrepreneur

with an awesome name that I would love to read just because I like how your name sounds, but I won't. They send in a method with a subject line, of episode 522 international manufacturing. Hey Dan, I'm listening to your episode on MLMs right now. I just wanted to give some insight to some of your comments about manufacturing out of countries like China.

This might be a long one, but I would love if you could give it a read. If you end up reading it on air, I would like to stay anonymous. I own a business and I make some products myself within the U.S., but I have a lot of my packaging and other things I don't have the capabilities to produce done in China. I wanted to give some raw numbers and info on this. I'll give you an example. I had a meeting with the local plastics manufacturer and a mold coffee. for one of my products in the U.S. would be between $50,000 and $80,000, with the product itself

nearly costing triple to make per piece even after that. The same mold produced in China would cost between $5,000 and $8,000. This would force me to almost triple the price if I stayed in America, making it insanely unaffordable for what it is. Although we see them as getting paid much, much less international trade utilizes currency differences. Right, of course, right? For example, a stay in a five-star hotel in China will cost you approximately $100, $200 a night, you know, U.S. Same level of a hotel in the U.S. costs $800 to $1,000 a night. Nice dinner out. That cost $20, U.S. here will cost about $4 there.

That is why a lot of Chinese companies like to work with the U.S. dollar or euro as it goes a longer way. The cost of living, food, medical care, drastically different due to currency exchange, which is why you also see Americans traveling to China and other countries for medical care, since the U.S. dollar will go so much further for the same care. I think a lot of people don't keep currency exchange in mind, and I think it is an American mindset on how they could live off that much in our country. During my business with China, for one of my products,

I have a point of contact that represents my needs, orders, et cetera, to their business. I became very close with her over the years. We often spoke about the differences and similarities between our countries. One thing I find interesting is they often see the U.S. as a third-world country. There is a term called the American kill line, where the U.S. will kill you through poverty,

homelessness, and drug addiction if you fall just one. once. The idea of not being able to afford medical care and instead being left to die by your country is inconceivable to them. I definitely not a fan of China as a government, and I think they have plenty of issues similar to ours, but I think it's unfair to title them a third world country and can come across as, you know, xenophobic propaganda. While sweatshops definitely do exist, and large corporations tend to take advantage of this the most, I personally will not work with a factory or company that doesn't have open doors for inspections from independent UE or EU, excuse me, companies, just like anywhere, even in America, you have good businesses

and bad businesses that try and take advantage of people. I've run into a few factories and companies within China that don't feel good about, have red flags, and I found others instead that are what I consider to be honest companies. I just don't think it's a fair point to say anybody that sources material or works with companies within China is bad. I do think when working with a company that you can't have easy access to walk into locally, that it should be researched and looked into thoroughly. Just food for thought.

and what my experience has been with working with both U.S. and Chinese companies. Love the podcast. Can't wait to hear more. Anonymous. So much good stuff here. Yeah, yeah, I should have been more thorough and careful with my language. I actually didn't intend to label China a third world country as far as all of its factories are third world.

I should have spoken more specifically about some third world business practices that do still exist there. And I am familiar, yes, with a currency exchange. While China's overall economy has for sure modernized, and labor laws have definitely strengthened over recent decades. You know, a variety of labor rights organizations, investigative journalists, and international watchdogs still do regularly document a lot of severe exploitation,

particularly in fast fashion, electronics, toy manufacturing, that doesn't exist the same way in the U.S. due to different legislation. Does the U.S. government fail in citizens in other ways, like the ways you've mentioned, oh my God, yeah. I've made the exact same criticisms, drawn the same conclusions of our government that fuck over the world, working class and do leave so many hardworking Americans way too vulnerable people who are abandoned when they fail like you said just once but yes i could have spent more time on a more nuanced

presentation so i'm glad you called me out i should have mentioned that uh yeah not all chinese and various other you know asian you know manufacturers are bad that you can work with foreign manufacturers that do make you know what you're trying to pursue business wise possible and do pay people a living wage for that country. Not every single part of the supply chain globally is exploitive. So yeah, thanks again for sending in such a well-written correction. I was appreciate that. I will say the companies, if I didn't mention this already, the companies I did reference,

the tech companies I didn't mention, they were found guilty of using the bad companies, bad third world exploitive companies where people are just, it's like fucking early 20th century robber baron America type factory exploitation. or, you know, like, what we did with, like, Latin American countries, you know, with, like, banana companies and stuff that I've talked about previously. And now, finally, for my own update, an update to episode 76 about Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls. Monday, August 31st, 1996, a Las Vegas jury found former gang leader Compton Crip, D. Keefe D. Davis, guilty of first-degree murder for orchestrated the 1996 drive-by killing of Tupac Shakur. I didn't think that would ever happen. I didn't think anybody would ever be found guilty.

The 63-year-old Davis was convicted. So I guess, you know, this is fitting for like an unsolved murder episode. Sometimes right when you think, like, no fucking way they're ever going to catch anybody. They do. The 63-year-old Davis was convicted Monday of a single kind of murder with a deadly weapon. Could be sentenced to life in prison. A jury deliberated for less than three hours after a just under two-week-long trial in Las Vegas. Davis acquired a gun, went hunting for Shakur and Death Row Records co-founder,

Marion Shug Knight after they beat up Davis' nephew earlier that night, so retribution for that. Davis' accounts of the killing evolved over the years, but a critical detail remained consistent that he repeatedly placed himself inside the white Cadillac from which the fatal shots were fired. Does not seem that Tupac's killing had anything to do with Biggie, aka Christopher Wallace's killing, or I guess vice versa, that Biggie's killing had nothing to do with like retribution over Tupac. doesn't seem to be linked to a tit for tat gang war, but a pretty big update to an old episode. So I thought I would share it.

And thanks for sending in your updates, everybody. Time suckers, I needed that. We all did. Well, thank you for listening to another bad magic productions podcast. Be sure in rate and review time suck. If you haven't already, please don't go out to a dance club this week with the intention of getting some woman to leave with you

because you want to kill them. Chill the fuck out also about periods, you creepy weirdo. Grow up. It's just a little blood It's just a little blood It's just a little blood It's a little bit of blood

And a little It should be called blood It's period blood It's plut And it's fine And keep on sucking And magic productions You know my name is a

Cummins is the Scottish It's the Scottish name And I definitely have some Scottish heritage Maybe that's why a lot of people Can understand me Maybe we're just We're hard to fucking understand people You know

It did I think being a little bit Scottish, though, did help me learn Scottish really quick this week. Check this out. I've been practicing. Hey. Aye. I mean, I'm a bit of the fielding.

Wee, it's it. Yes. Langell makelemyri. Aye. Biscuit. Eh, Edinburgh. Clasco. One of the day that's

Gerey, aye. Abedina, well and by all ye heed. Numpty Jake. Yeah. Ha ha. Nopty Jack. Hey!

Oh, that was Scottish for it. What the fuck is wrong with me? Hill Nimrod.