Timesuck with Dan Cummins - Short Suck #36 - The Shocking Case of Mary Bell

Episode Date: June 27, 2025

In the summer of 1968, two young children, both under the age of five, turned up dead in Scotswood, a run down neighborhood of primarily government housing in the industrial English city of Newcastle upon Tyne. Initially, the first boy's death had been ruled an accident. But when the second died... they knew he had been strangled. And the coroner felt another child had been the one to do it. Sadly, he was right. Who would've thought a young girl, just ten years old when she killed her first victim, was capable of this? For Merch and everything else Bad Magic related, head to: https://www.badmagicproductions.com

Welcome to another edition of Time Sucks, Short Sucks. I'm Dan Cummins and today I will be sharing the story of Mary Bell. Who would you least like to run into in a darkened alley? When you think of merciless, bloodthirsty killers, I imagine certain archetypes tend to pop up in your mind. A grown male, perhaps a sadistic serial killer type. Prowling neighborhoods looking for windows of unsuspecting victims to climb in and torment, some Richard Ramirez night stalker kind of monster, or maybe a muscular contract killer like the Iceman, Richard Kuklinski, someone who's been in the game a long time, murdered over and over again for money, a dead-eyed, unsympathetic

professional who ceased to think of his fellow humans as anything but blood and guts to be disposed of. These are the people we might cross to the other side of the street to avoid. But as we know from what we've talked about for many years, inner psychopathy does not always equate to the scariest physical appearance. Sometimes it's truly the people you least expect. The charming family man, the elderly widow, the misguided teenager, or even a little 10 year old girl who has just discovered that she likes to watch people die. Words and ideas can change the world.

I hated her, but I wanted to love my mother. I have a dream. I plead not guilty right now. Your only chance is to leave with us. Your only chance is to leave with us According to author Gitta Sireni who wrote the case of Mary Bell Newcastle upon Tyne shares the curious characteristic of many of Britain's industrial cities of looking empty even when the streets are full poor even in relatively affluent times

gray even in brightest sunshine. Lying 275 miles north of London, with a population of about 340,000 when Mary was a child, it wasn't the most fun or glamorous place to grow up. But it did have amenities, like a number of good schools and hospitals, a university of repute, a famous medical school, a progressive council with one of the best social service departments in the country, and stores, theaters, cinemas, restaurants, hotels, and so on. But it was also plagued with the problem any industrial city has to come to terms with sooner or later, that the industry supporting it sometimes fade, or even vanish entirely.

As the urban center for many nearby mining villages and shipyards, Newcastle suffered greatly when coal mining became a dying industry. And the shipyards throughout the economically depressed 1960s suffered from labor troubles and increasing competition from abroad. As a result, throughout the 1960s into the early 1970s, Newcastle had the dubious distinction of having the highest crime record in all of England. 35,882 indictable crimes in 1970 alone also had the highest rate of alcoholism in the country. Six to eight pints of brown ale per night being the accepted norm. That's wild. And one of the consistently highest unemployment figures of any city in Britain. 4.2% against a national average of 3.5%. And the unemployment rate was much, much higher in the neighborhood where Mary grew up. In working-class districts like Scotswood, where up to 50% of the men were out of work at any given time, families did what they had to do

to get by, with many of them huddling around coal fireplaces as their only source of heat and dealing with the constant threat of crime. Scottswood is an area of about a half square mile inhabited by 17,000 people back in the late 60s, most of it overlooking railway tracks and a large tract of wasteland known as Tin Lizzie. Most of the people who lived there paid the council a rent of two pounds and 20 pence

or about $5 a week with rebates available in hard times. All in all it added up to a rent of only about a hundred and seventy five dollars a month in today's money. Mary Bell's family frequently fell on hard times. Her mother was a well-known sex worker named Elizabeth Bell, also an absolutely terrible monster of a mother. Elizabeth or Betty as she was known, born in Gateshead in 1939, a beautiful child apparently and her father's favorite. The family would live in Glasgow where her father worked as a miner. But then he suffered a debilitating injury when Betty was four and had to stay home. But it was an odd child apparently who developed some strange habits like eating off of the floor in corners and

only eating if her family pretended not to see her or she could pretend to steal the food. In 1953 when Betty was 14 her father died of a heart condition and she was devastated. She locked herself in her closet, wouldn't come out. Finally when she did start to come out she was different, detached, angry at the world and she started stealing from her job at a store. She then got pregnant at the age of 15 by a boy named Jimmy, then took an overdose of phenobarbital in a suicide attempt and had to be taken to the hospital in an ambulance.

It is unclear if she ended up having the baby. I don't think she did. If she did, it does not seem as if she kept it. A little while later, the family moved back to Gateshead where Betty got to work as a machinist in a rope factory. In their new home, Betty's life began to unravel. She soon got pregnant again and on May 26, 1957 she definitely had a baby. A little girl, Mary Flora Bell. A really pretty name actually. And a child unfortunately that she did not want. And who was Mary Bell's father? That's unclear. Mary believed her father to be

William Billy Bell, a violent alcoholic and habitual criminal with an arrest record for crimes including armed robbery. But he was never around. When Mary was still a baby her mom married a guy also named Billy. Another parental figure who did not want her apparently. Billy would never claim her as his daughter and said he would strangely claim to be his own stepdaughter's uncle and that's weird. Mary's early life would not be a good one. According to her aunt Isa McCricket, within mere minutes of Mary's birth her mom had resented hospital staff attempting to place her daughter in her arms shouting, take the thing away from me. Then as a baby, toddler, and young child, Mary frequently

suffered injuries in a variety of household accidents, quote unquote, while alone with her mom, which led her family to believe that either her mom was deliberately negligent or intentionally attempting to harm or even possibly kill her own daughter. Around 1960, Betty somehow dropped her daughter, who was either two or three years old at this point, from a first floor window. On another occasion, she deliberately gave the girl a potentially lethal dose of sleeping pills. At yet another point, she sold Mary to a mentally unstable woman across town. Mary's older sister, Catherine, had to travel alone across Newcastle, reclaim little Mary, and then bring her home. So insane. And then things would get even worse. Despite clearly not wanting her daughter around, Betty now

refused to let anyone else take custody of Mary after that incident. Apparently, she had her own sick plans for the girl because at one point it is alleged that Betty began encouraging her sex work clients to sexually abuse her own daughter in BDSM sessions in the mid-1960s. So, holy shit. Real mother of the year candidate there. Betty was fucked up. Betty actively, allegedly participated in several of these sessions, including numerous ones in which she blindfolded her daughter with a stocking before restraining her hands behind her back and then forcing her to perform oral sex upon her grown ass clients. Mary not even 10 years old at this point. So obviously what the fuck?

Also, that is a crime that should be punishable only by life imprisonment with zero possibility of parole or death, but this never went to trial. Although nobody would know about this abuse until much later, it being the 1960s in a very conservative neighborhood where putting your nose in other people's business was strongly discouraged, Mary would begin to exhibit signs in public that pointed to, you know, shit not being okay at home. At school, while this was supposedly going on, teachers and fellow students began to notice Mary's sudden personality shift, mood swings. She's now also chronically wetting the bed. She becomes violent. She's frequently fighting with other children, both boys and girls. Occasionally she even attempted to strangle or suffocate her

classmates or playmates. Understandably this violent behavior did not really encourage other kids to want to hang out with her and soon Mary's closest and pretty much only friend would be Norma Joyce Bell, unrelated, different Bell, a socially awkward 13 year old girl and the daughter of a next door neighbor. So kind of funny that two families both named Bell live in side by side, not related. Although three years older than Mary, Mary was clearly the alpha in their relationship. Prior to May of 1968, people in the neighborhood knew Mary was a strange kid, but she didn't seem dangerous. Her and her little sidekick Norma, but then that would change.

On Saturday, May 11th, 1968, a three-year-old boy was discovered wandering dazed and bleeding in the vicinity of St. Margaret's Road in Scotswood. The little boy later informed police he'd been playing with Mary Bell and Norma Bell atop an abandoned air raid shelter when one of them pushed him off the roof. Poor little dude, he's three. And he fell roughly seven feet to the ground where he hit his head. But he didn't know which one of the girls had pushed him. Then that very same evening, the parents of three different small girls contacted the

police to complain that both Mary and Norma had attempted to legit strangle their kids as they played in a sandpit and then force sanded their mouths and down their throats. That evening both girls are interviewed about these different incidents by the police. They denied any culpability for the air raid shelter incident claiming they had simply discovered the boy bleeding heavily from a head wound after he had fallen. Whoops! Who knows what happened to him? When there were further questions about the attempted strangulation of three different young girls, Mary said, I don't know what people are talking about. No clue. But then Norma, questioned separately, admitted that yeah, Mary had tried to throttle each of the girls, stating,

Mary went to one of the girls and said, What happens if you choke someone? Do they die? Then Mary put both hands round the the girls throat and squeezed. The girl started to go purple. I told Mary to stop but she wouldn't. Then she put her hands around Pauline's throat and she started going purple as well. Another girl, Susan Cornish, came up and Mary did the same thing to her. Good God! Damier killed several kids this day. The report about these incidents made its way up the chain of command, but since the girls were so young and seemed morbidly curious, more than outright dangerous or malevolent, I guess, they would both only be given a warning.

And that was that. Nobody did anything else, and many would soon come to see how big of a mistake that was. On Saturday, May 25th, 1968, sweet little four-year-old Martin Brown got up around 630 in the morning like he always did. This kid, you know, I mean barely more than a toddler. I mean a little bit more but not a lot. Had a sturdy body, ravenous appetite, wavy light blonde hair, cute little guy, round, mischievous face, fair complexion, blue eyes. He loved his one-year-old sister Linda and his ma'am June and his dad Georgie, whom

he more often than not called by his first name for some reason. Also loved the Bennets, his next door neighbors, and played frequently with his cousins who lived just down the road. Careful not to make a sound and wake up his parents, Martin went down to the scullery to sneak himself a piece of bread and a glass of milk. When he finished downstairs, he brought some milk up for little Linda. So fucking sweet.

She stood on his tiptoes, leaning over the side of her cot, carefully held the cup for the baby like he did frequently. He got her up, dressed her, finally just before 9 o'clock. After playing with his sister for a while, they went in to wake their mother. Martin then had his proper breakfast, grabbed his coat, then called to his mom saying, I'm away ma'am, Georgie.

And he walked out of the house and left. Like he was a fucking teenager. What is happening here? He's four years old. Why is he just walking out of the house alone to be like, I'll see you, see you mom. Back for dinner after my Maywalk shift. Like if Kyler Monroe at four were like, I'm away dad. And then just opened the door and started to head out into the neighborhood,

they wouldn't have made it very far. They would have been met real quick with it. What the fuck you doing? Get back in the house, weirdos. What are you doing walking out? Don't ever walk out like that. You crazy? There's maniacs out there. You don't even know how to cross the street safely. Your brain's not developed. You're not ready for survival in the outside world. Later that Saturday morning, though they didn't remember the exact times, John Hall and Gordon Collinson, two workmen from the Newcastle Electricity Board, noticed a small boy in a blue anorak, this little hooded waterproof heavy jacket, watching them disconnect power cables from a derelict house along St. Margaret's Road.

Again, what the fuck is happening? Why is he hanging out at a derelict house? Round 11, little man just been wandering around the neighborhood alone unsupervised for about two hours now, and now he heads to Aunt Rita's house at 112 St. Margat's Road. In fact, he woke her up and she was pissed off about that. And then Rita's mom, so his grandma, gave him an egg on toast. Aunt Rita then calmed down and was cool again. And then he was like, all right, see you around. Cheerio! And then just took off again. And they're like, all right, I guess he's going to go wander, you know, play in some derelict houses And I want to go back in time and just line up every single member of his family and just slapping their faces

Come on. What are they do? It's not like any of them at work. It's Saturday. They're all off for the day apparently I guess none of them could be bothered just to watch a four-year-old Around three o'clock now after I guess you know little man Just been fucking about and abandoned houses bounced around doing God knows what for about four hours Actually longer than that. So around three o'clock. Oh my god. What am I saying four four if he left the house around nine He's been he's I guess for four hours since he saw his aunt and grandma and he's been away from his parents now for about Six hours now a little man heads back to his house. It Get some money to go buy some candy at Dixon's shop Not much more than a small wooden shack ten feet back from the street

He waited in line with some other kids and goes off with a lollipop he bought after his aunt Rita He was also waiting nearby Got some got some stuff and then he told her he was hungry that he wanted some toast more toast But she said she wasn't gonna give him any not with butter because butter was for the quote good tea all right his family's awesome apparently gets mad poor little dudes hangry and he storms off to go play in some more condemned houses that's just what kids did in this neighborhood he's playing again in front of those men from the electricity board we're working then at.30 in the afternoon, just 15 minutes after Martin got his lollipop, three boys, John Henry Southern,

who was 16, Walter Long, who was 13, and Fred Myhill, who was only 8, they entered one of the condemned houses, number 85, to look for some scrap wood, which they wanted to build a pigeon house with. Okay, pigeon house. That's cool. Yeah, sure. They sadly, of course, would find something very different. And before we find out what those boys found, but I think you already know, time for this week's first two mid-show sponsor breaks. If you don't want to hear these ads, please sign up to be a space visitor on Patreon. Get the catalog ad free. Get these episodes early. Help us contribute to charities and more. Thanks for listening to those ads.

Now back to the summer of 1968 to find out what some boys found when they were out looking for some scrap wood for a pigeon house. In the back bedroom, John and Fred found a small boy lying in front of the window on his back with his arms outstretched and blood and spit foaming out of his mouth. He was possibly still alive, but just barely. Walter and John ran outside to get the electricians who were having a cup of tea in their temporary shelter. The men knew who it was right away, the little boy who they'd seen.

Gordon Collinson called an ambulance at 3.35 p.m. But when he ran over to check, the boy's body was already starting to grow cold. Poor four-year-old neglected and hungry Martin Brown, the little man who helped feed and dress his baby sister when he got up in the morning because his family just couldn't be bothered, was dead. 13-year-old Walter Long, meanwhile, felt sick to his stomach from discovering the body. He went to another room to get some fresh air, try not to vomit. While he stood with his head out of a window overlooking St. Margaret's Road, he saw two dark-haired girls walking towards the house.

They stopped directly underneath his window. Then the smaller one, Mary Bell, said to the other, Norma, Shall we go up? Holloway, then, let's go up. The other one, Norma Bell, replied. The girls then climbed through a partly boarded up window on the ground floor of the house next door, number 83, went through into the backyard and through a partially demolished outhouse into number 85. And then Walter Long stopped them as they came up the stairs and told

them to go away. That's alright, the police know I'm here. Mary Bell replied, but they still left. Then just a few minutes later Rita Finlay, Martin's aunt, heard a knock at her door. It was Mary and her little friend Norma. And Mary reported that quote, one of your barons has had an accident. I mean one of their barons, one of the kids. Then said that actually she thought it was June's child and Rita couldn't believe it. I'll show you where he is, said Mary. But Rita, now becoming hysterical, pushed her aside, followed the gathering crowd around number 85

to the bedroom where Martin lay. A few minutes later, somebody went to inform Georgie and June Brown. They went to the house too, saw the body of their son as it was taken out to the ambulance. And I know they didn't kill their son or want their son to be killed. But honestly, what the fuck were they thinking? They hadn't checked in on their four-year-old, what, I guess it was one time since he left the house around nine o'clock that morning. That's crazy. I mean, there's another time I guess, but what? Just a time of casual child neglect, I guess. The police informed by the hospital just after 3 40 p.m. that Martin was dead, sent a sergeant and constables from the uninformed, sorry, uninformed from the

uniformed division. Officers in charge of accidents straight to the scene. Now I'm really wishing they had an uninformed division. I sent a couple guys from the uninformed division. And just a couple of bumbling idiots to show up. Hey, what's going on out here? Well, there's a little boy who's going, what? What? That can happen? Oh my god! Like they just don't understand how anything works about anything. Well, how is that even possible? I don't know. You're the fucking police. We're the uninformed division. We don't know anything. Okay, sorry. When they get there, it was not proving to be a straightforward investigation.

As far as they could see, there was no sign of struggle or fall. There was a hole in the ceiling, but it was diagonally opposite where Martin had been found. He couldn't have possibly just like fallen across the room from that hole. There was a thick layer of dust everywhere. None of it had been disturbed except where of course all the people who had handled Martin had stood or squatted with him in their arms. They couldn't figure out what had happened to him. You know like or excuse me. They couldn't figure out how what had happened to him had happened. That evening the pathologist Dr. Bernard Knight carried out a post-mortem found it impossible to determine the cause of the boy's death. Martin had been fit, well-nourished, healthy, had no external injuries except

a bruise on his knee which pretty much any any rambunctious boy that age is gonna have. The only abnormality the internal examination revealed was a small hemorrhage in the brain that was slightly swollen. But what did that mean? Dr. Knight thought maybe it meant poisoning, but the analysis revealed neither drugs nor chemicals. Dr. Knight later said that another possible explanation asphyxia had occurred to him, but strangulation which left no pressure marks whatsoever seemed impossible to him Martin's neck had been unblemished and unbruised so he discarded it June and Georgie Brown were asked hundreds of questions but they couldn't offer anything they had no idea what had happened to their son Georgie

kept saying I'm sorry who we talking about Oh Martin Oh right the little guy I sometimes see downstairs. Oh, wait, the one that's friends with the baby. Oh, yeah. No, I'm not going to be able to tell you much about him. I, uh, we're not close, to be honest. June kept saying, I keep telling you I can't answer these questions. Yeah, technically he was my son, but I really didn't know him.

He was just this strange little dude who helped with the baby, sometimes ate our toast. Has anyone seen the baby, by the way? I haven't seen the baby since this morning. Anyway, I usually only saw him in the morning before he left to go to work maybe? I'm not sure what he did with his free time. Sorry, maybe they were better parents than I'm giving them credit for right now. But maybe not. They really did have no idea what had happened.

They definitely didn't think someone had done anything to him. I mean, who would have it out for a nice four-year-old little boy? With nothing else to go on, the police accepted that Martin's death was probably an accident. And the CID, the Criminal Investigation Department, was never brought into the case. I can't stop thinking about the uninformed. They were just going to let the uninformed officers handle it. So what happened to him? Officer fucking shithead? Question mark! Anyway, very next day, May 26th, Martin's

Aunt Rita was at home when the same two girls, Norma and Mary, came by asked if they could take their young child John, aged not listed in sources, out to play. This is diabolical going back to this house or this family. Rita thought they were being very kind. She had four kids looking after them while dealing with the fallout with their nephews' deaths was proven difficult. Fortunately these girls will bring little John back home alive. After that they will come over every day for a while to play with John, take him to some shops locally, and then they started asking Rita some weird-ass questions. Stuff like, Do you miss Martin?

Or, uh, Do you cry for him? Does June miss him? These questions started to creep Rita the fuck out because of the tone which they were asked. The girls didn't seem sad about Martin's death. It's more like, Do you cry for him? Does June miss him? Oh really? Do you miss Martin?

Like they seemed happy. Little mischievous, always grinning when they ask these questions. And because of that Rita eventually told them to stop coming around. Now let's back up to May 26th, the day after Martin's murder. That day was Mary Bell's 11th birthday. Mary and Susan, Norma Bell's 11 year old sister who also would occasionally play with Mary, took Mary's German shepherd for a walk in Hodgkin Park that day. Mary asked Susan if she'd sent her a birthday card. Susan said she had, but Mary said, no he didn't, and she got pissed

off. And she chased Susan all the way back to her house where she then tried to strangle her. This kid's out of control. Susan's parents heard their daughter screaming, they dashed out, saw Mary and Susan standing at the front door of the house. Mary had both her hands around Susan's neck. Mr. Bell, Susan's dad, pushes Mary away, tells her to go home. Now Susan will not be allowed to play with Mary anymore, which is a good call. They should have had both her kids stay away from Mary.

After that, things are going to get stranger. On the morning of Monday, May 27th, the teachers arriving at the Woodlands Crescent Nursery, a little daycare for the working class neighborhood, found that the nursery had been broken into over the weekend. Someone had entered through the loft and scattered things about. Amongst the wreckage, the police found four pieces of paper with disturbing words scribbled on them in childish writing. One note said, I murder so that I may come back. That's terrifying.

Note two had the letters B-A-S at the top and then underneath. So I think it's supposed to be fuck but it's F-U-C-H. Fuck of we murder, watch out Fanny and then this possible homosexual slur. Note three said, we did murder Martin, a lot of misspellings, but it says I think we did murder Martin Brown. Fuck off you bastard. Note four read, you are micey. Because we murdered Martin. Go Brown. You better look out. There are murders by Fanny and old possible homosexual slur you screws.

No idea what the hell that last part of the sentence is about. Police decided that all this was nothing more than a nasty prank, you know, carried out by people who were not very literate. An officer took the notes back to the station, handed them over to the station sergeant, and then they were filed away. As an added precaution, this is probably so annoying because none of this is in my notes, just keeps floating over my head about the the uninformed division. I just picture them handing this evidence to an officer from the uninformed division and he immediately just crumps it up and it's like, Kobe! Even though Kobe wasn't around then. And just like shoots it into a waste paper basket. Anyway, as an added precaution, an alarm was installed at the school now. That same morning, May 27th, Mr. F's class at the DeLaval Road Junior School worked on

their school news book in which every week they were encouraged to record current events and interesting things they had noticed. And Mary Bell drew a picture which showed the outstretched body of a child lying on the floor of a room under a window. Next to the body was a bottle and above it written partly in capital letters the word tablet. To the left a man, a cap on his head and a tool over his right shoulder walked towards the body.

Above the drawing on the left was the date May 27th 1968. Underneath it said, On Saturday I was in the house and my ma'am sent me to ask Norma if she would come up to the she would come up the top with me. We went up and we came down at Margaret's Road and there were crowds of people beside an old house. I asked what was the matter? There has been a boy who just laid down and died." Again, these like fucking so many misspellings. Nobody would realize the time that Mary Bell was the only child who wrote about Martin Brown's death. This would be far from the only time. She does something like that. Four days after Martin had been found, just turned 11 year old Mary Bell,

her birthday was the very next day after he died, knocked on the door of the Brown's house and asked to see Martin. His mother June, still very much grieving her son of course, said, no pet, Martin's dead. And then Martin sort of shrugged and then grinned and then said, oh I know he's dead, I wanted to see him in his coffin. June shocked and she slammed the door in the little girl's face. Friday, May 31st, the automatic alarm that had been installed at the Woodlands Crescent Nursery went off. It alerted the West End Police Station. Two officers who got there within minutes found two girls in the nursery yard, and they were of course Mary Bell and her little friend Norma Bell. The girls were charged with breaking and entering but were released into their parents custody until the case could be

heard in juvenile court which due to a very full court calendar would not be for months. About a week after that 12 year old boy lived near the nursery and knew both girls, joined them when they were playing near the nursery sandpit and he saw Mary quote tripping Norma up. Norma fell then he watched Mary jump on top of her and just slap her about scratch her face and arm. She screamed I am a murderer. Which made him laugh. Then he stopped laughing for a moment when Mary stood up, grabbed Norma by the hair, pulled her head up and then kicked her in the eye. She then pointed in the direction of the house where little Martin had been found and said

that house over there that's where I killed brown My god Well, this made the young boy laugh again because he thought mary was just being crazy. She's a show-off. She's liar. Everybody knew it Nobody took her seriously apparently but they should have A few months would pass before mary did something else shocking Towards the end of july mary bell was the Howes, her neighbors at 64 White House Road. This family consisted of a father and five children from two marriages, four boys, a 14-year-old girl named Pat. The mother of the two youngest boys had left them 18 months before. This is just a neighborhood of sadness. And Mr. Howe, who had suffered from ill

health for many years, was in the hospital at the time. Pat had dropped out of school, right, the 14-year-old girl Pat dropped out of school to take care of the two younger boys, seven-year-old Norman and three-year-old Brian. The eldest Howe brother, Albert, who was 23, was home as well, as was his 20-year-old girlfriend Irene. Mary came by, told them that she knew something about Norma that would, quote, get her put straight away. Then Mary said Norma put her hand on a boy's throat. It was Martin Brown. She pressed and he just dropped. Well in a small neighborhood right rumors get passed around fast and soon people are confronting Mary for spreading this terrible lie about Norma. Later that day Mary ends up apologizing

to Norma Bell's mother for what she said. And then nobody follows up with her. Why was she saying that? Just like nobody had noticed how Mary kept looking at little three-year-old Brian Howe that day. Brian was a curly-haired boy who barely knew his mother. She'd left when he was, again, a year and a half, but loved his sister Pat, his brother Norman, his black and white dog Lassie, adorable, and Rita's three-year-old son John, which was his best friend. I fucking love it when like little tiny kids have best friends. And on July 31st, Rita came to pick up Brian to take him to the nursery, but nobody answered the door. At lunchtime, however, Brian and John, they met up, two little dudes, went out to play. Rita went

looking for them about 1 30 p.m. Finding them sitting on the ground watching a demolition crew pull down an old house. That's cool. So now we got two three-year-olds. They're watching each other. They're babysitting each other. They're just you know they're just outside running around for hours unsupervised next to a demolition site. What could possibly go wrong? Does anybody else feel like this is playing out like an especially dark episode of Shameless? These poor kids all of them just living in some apathetic hellscape.

Reed eventually got after the boys for standing so close to a dangerous construction site. And then she sent little Brian home. Between 2 and 3 that afternoon, Brian was noticed by a number of other kids, all of whom saw him playing in the street with his seven-year-old brother. So you know, he's in good hands. He's got a seven-year-old looking out for him We all know they make the best most stable babysitters. She's playing in the street as a three year old. That's cool Few minutes later Marion Norma went to Rita's house asked to take John out. Apparently they'd patch things back up with Rita

Rita said she had just put him to bed She contemplated getting him up because it was a nice day But decided not to because the trouble he'd gotten into that morning. She will soon be so relieved she has made this decision. The two girls then proceeded down the road. He came across Brian playing with two other little girls, Norma and Mary, then asked Brian if he wanted to go on a walk with them. He said he did, and off Brian went. And before we find out what happens to poor little Brian, time for today's second and two mid-show sponsor breaks.

Thanks for listening to our sponsors, and now we will return once again to the summer of 1968 and find out what happened to poor Brian. At about 3 20 p.m. Brian's older sister slash maternal figure Pat Howe came back home after spending several hours with friends in another part of the city. She asked her brother Albert's 20 year old girlfriend Irene, who was still staying with them where Brian was, and she told her like, I don't know, he's out playing somewhere. For fuck's sake, no one is watching any of these kids closely. I know again, it's a different time, different place, but it's just wild to me. They're just letting three-year-olds roam about all willy-nilly. God, this reeks of just parental drug abuse, alcoholism, just a fucking slum culture of like, ah, fuck it.

Nothing matters. Life is shit. Who cares? Man, just so much despondency. Uh, at about four o'clock, Albert told Pat to go out, look for him in the streets. One of the first people she asked was Maxine Savage. That's a fucking badass name, actually. Maxine Savage. Who lives at 66 White House Road next to Norma Bell's house.

She talked to her on her back steps where Maxine was sitting with Mary Bell. And Maxine said she hadn't seen Brian. Mary lied. Said she hadn't seen him either. Mary volunteered to help and a few minutes later, Norma appeared. Not sure why Norma's still hanging out with her. After getting fucking punted in the eyeball. Maybe afraid to marry, maybe afraid of being alone, doesn't have any other friends. Also I guess just kids,

right? Not a lot makes sense with children's behavior. Around this age thinking back I punch kids that I would then still hang out with. Also got punched by kids I would still hang out with. Just the Lord of the Flies type existence for a lot of us around that age. The two girls now went down together to Davies, a little neighborhood grocery shop at the far end of St. Margaret's Road. Then they went down the hill, across the railway towards Vickers Armstrong parking lot, but Brian wasn't there. So now they went back up onto the railway bridge. From there they could see all over the Tin Lizzie that 400 or 500 square yards of wasteland full of old building materials, oil drums, various holding tanks, just another side of

the tracks which the kids used as some dystopian like playground which actually does sound like it would be an exciting place to play for a kid at that age. Brian not there either. Norma got bored now, ran off saying she wasn't going to go play. Then Pat Mary went the other way towards Hodgkin's Park around 730. Still no sign of Brian. Pat now decides to call the police. Mary Bell's father calls her home for dinner. It would be more than four hours or it would be four more hours, excuse me, before Brian Howe will be found. At 1110, Brian is discovered lying on the ground between two concrete blocks in that tin-lizzy area.

His left arm was stretched out from his body. His hand was black with dirt. Lying on the grass nearby is a pair of scissors with one blade broken, the other bent back. His body is covered with the carpet of long grass and purple weeds. There are scratch marks on his nose, traces of bloodstained froth at his mouth. His lips are blue. There are pressure marks and scratches on both sides of his neck. And he is dead. Detective Chief Inspector James Dobson of the CID was asleep when his telephone rang at one in the morning. He heard the report of a young boy that was presumably stabbed

in the abandoned lot and rushed out of his house. Immediately upon arrival, he thought of Martin Brown. This lot was just across from where the four-year-old had been found and it had been clear how Martin had died. It was very clear that something not accidental had happened to Brian. The postmortem revealed three scratch marks on the right side of Brian's neck, two on the left. There were also a series of compression marks on his nose suggesting that someone had pinched his nose shut perhaps on both sides. Also in the middle midline of his scrotum there was a small area of superficial skin loss and a similar one on the tip of the

boy's right ring finger. There were six puncture wounds on his thighs and legs, two on the outside of his left thigh, three on the back, one on the right calf. But none of that was what killed him. The pathologist Dr. Bernard Tomlinson concluded that the kid had been strangled. However, atypically the doctor felt that whoever had killed him probably was not an adult because when an adult kills a child they tend to use too much force as though they're trying to kill another adult. But Brian's injuries, though vicious, were all, you know, comparatively light. They were strangely experimental, almost playful, he thought. What could a child really have done this?

Why would a child kill another child, he's wondering. The murder room at Newcastle's West End Police, the headquarters for the investigation, was a hive of activity all night. Preliminary statements were taken, questionnaires carefully composed, which would be used to collect statements from all neighborhood children, and thousands of forms were copied and distributed. Their plan was to work around the clock until the person was found, and that is exactly what would happen. During the first 24 hours, a thousand homes in Hell, I mean Scotswood, were visited,

and 1,200 children between the ages of 3 and 15 and their parents were given questionnaires to fill out. Many of the kids' forms were unclear and their parents were given questionnaires to fill out. Many of the kids' forms are unclear and inconsistent when they came back. Of course they were, right? These little kids. These kids will get follow-up interviews and two of the kids to get those follow-ups Norma Bell and Mary Bell. Detective Constable Kerr visited Norma at 4 p.m. August 1st to ask her to clarify her answer to question number 8. Do you know anyone who played with Brian? If so, name and address.

He thought it was weird that as he spoke to Norma she kept smiling as if this were all just some big joke. After leaving Norma Bell's house, Detective Constable Kerr went next door to number 70 to see Mary. In her case, he was checking her replies to question 6. When did you last see Brian? And question 9, were you playing behind the DeLaval Arms public house nearer to the railway lines between 1 PM and 5 PM Wednesday, July 31, 1968? He immediately noticed the different feeling in Mary's house.

It was not homey. Her stepfather, for some reason, quickly denied that he was her father. Said he was, as we went over before, her uncle. Also, Mary strangely evasive. Later that evening, Detective Constable Kerr saw Norma again. By this time, it was 7.05 p.m. Now she added some new information. She said that she'd been down to Davy's shop with Mary Flora Bell on the day that Brian died and had played with Mary in the street until about 5 p.m. and this was odd since Norma had not mentioned Mary at all before this. The next day August 2nd Detective Sergeant Dorshidi went to see

Mary about some further inconsistencies in her answers. Turned out that she too now remembered something else. She said that on Wednesday afternoon Brian how the afternoon that Brian was killed she saw a little boy reported in sources by the letter A standing by himself in Delaval Road and that he was covered with grass and little purple flowers. She said she had seen a play with Brian a lot and also that she had seen him hit Brian on the face and neck for no reason at all. Which you know what I mean she's probably making this up but also I wouldn't be surprised in this neighborhood of just feral animals. She said she had seen A play with Brian Howe a lot and also that she had seen him hit

Brian on the face and neck for no reason at all. Further said that she had seen A play with the pair of scissors quote like silver colored and something wrong with the scissors like one leg was either broken or bent and I saw him trying to cut a cat's tail off with those scissors she added. Man she's so devious such a young age she's barely 11 years old she's killed two kids and is trying to pin the second murder on a third kid. Scissors found next to Brian Howe's body had not been reported on in any of the newspapers but when they tracked down eight-year-old A he had an airtight alibi.

He'd been at the airport with his family so he definitely didn't do it. So why is Mary lying and how does she know about these scissors? How does she know enough to describe exactly what they look like? Very suspicious. August 4th, 7 45 p.m. Detective Constable Thompson goes back to talk to Norma now about her whereabouts on July 31st. He pointed out to her that at first she had said she'd been playing with her brothers and sisters, but then she'd mentioned Mary Belle and now several other people said that they had seen her in the streets with Mary Belle and also with Mary Belle's dog. Norman insisted that she had told the truth when she had said she was not with Mary Belle. She got confused about the times and she began to cry and she asked

to talk without her dad in the room. When her dad leaves, Norma quickly confesses to the truth. Mary had taken her to see little Brian's dead body that day and now she's immediately taken to the police station. Meanwhile, Detective Constable Kerr took another trip to number 70 where Mary Bell lived. Mary came to the door but said he couldn't come in. Her uncle wasn't home. Well Well they eventually get a hold of Uncle Billy at the pub where he was quote very hostile. Not surprised and wouldn't allow Mary to be taken to the police station for more questioning. Meanwhile Norma is being interviewed by Chief Inspector Dobson. I went with Mary Bell

down to the blocks the day that Brian was lost and I tripped over his head she told him. When I went into the blocks I tripped over something I looked down and saw it was Brian's head he was covered with grass but I could tell, excuse me, but I could see all his face he was dead. Then she said Mary had told her I squeezed his neck and pushed up his lungs that's how you kill them and she also said that Mary had told her that she had enjoyed it. Norma also said she would show the police where Mary had hidden a razor that she had used to cut Brian's body, which she did at 8 30 p.m. After that, they returned to the police station where Norma made an official statement implicating Mary Bell and the murder of Brian Howe, describing how Mary had helped look for the boy she had killed. Norma was now taken to stay at the Fernwood Remand Home, County

Council Children's Home for girls in Newcastle. Seems like, you know, they considered her a suspect in the murder but didn't want to return her to, you know, and didn't want to return her to her home because of that but also didn't want to put her in a jail cell either since she was only 13. Chief Inspector Dobson and two police constables then went to Mary Bell's home about two hours later, 12 15 a.m. Monday August 5th. The house was in darkness except for a blazing fire and the TV which was going on full blast. All the kids, Mary and her three siblings, were asleep upstairs. Billy said he didn't want to wake her up but the police were welcome to wake her.

Okay. Then he agreed to go across the street and get his sister, Audrey, to go upstairs and wake Mary. Mary didn't seem bothered when she was woken up. When she came downstairs, she was fresh-faced, bright and chirpy and also defiant. Taken to the station, she roundly denied that she was anywhere near the Tin Lizzy, except when she'd been looking with Pat Norma and said that she was being brainwashed and asked if the room was bugged. Okay. Then she defiantly said, I'm going home. And she stood up. And Dobson presented her with the evidence, the razor that was found, the one that Norma had showed them. Mary still did not crumble. And he interviewed her for three more hours before he gave up when she still had

not crumbled. Much later that same day, August 5th, in the afternoon, Norma would now give another statement. She yet again shared something she had previously left out. She said, last Wednesday about one o'clock I was playing with May, that's what you would call Mary, was May, and about three o'clock we saw Brian Howe playing with his brother. They were playing with two little lassies on bikes. They live on the corner of Cross Hill Road and White House Road. They were beside the Garden Gate and his brother gave Brian a pair of scissors. We both went with Brian. May said we would take him. We went down Cross Hill Road and through the hole in the fence near Dixon's shop. We went over

the railway lines. I had taken the scissors off Brian in the street and I carried them. We climbed over the fence at the bottom of the bank, then over the fence at the other side. I climbed over first and May bunked the barren over. Barren's like a little kid. May said, look at that big tank. We'll all get in. The tank was further along from the blocks. There was a hole in the side of the tank.

May got in first. I bunked Brian up to May. Then I got in. It had a stinky smell, so we all got out again. May then said, the blocks Norma, Ho-Way. And we went along to the blocks. Then May said to Brian, lift up your neck. Just when she said that, there were some boys playing around and Lassie, Brian Howe's dog, was barking. She'd followed us down. May said to them, get away or I will set the dog on you. The boys went away.

May said to Brian again, lift up your neck. She put her two hands on his neck. She said there were two lumps you had to squeeze right up. She said she meant to harm him. She got him down in the grass and she seemed to go all funny. You could tell there was something the matter with her. She kept on struggling with him and he was struggling and trying to get her hands away. She let go of him and I could hear him gasping. She squeezed his neck again and I said, May, leave the baby alone. But she wouldn't. She said to me, my hands are getting thick. Take over. Then I ran away. I went back the way we had come. I went into White House Road where I played with

Linda Rutledge and the other kids I told you about. About 20 minutes after, May come up and asked me to go back down. I forgot to tell you that when I ran away and left Brian and May, I left the scissors on the grass. We went round by the car park. We didn't take the dog that time. That was when I tripped over Brian's head like I told you in the other statement. On the way down May found a razorblade on the path. I didn't tell you before that when I lifted Brian's head and shoulders up a bit and patted his back and his hand fell on one side and I laid him down again. I felt his pulse but it wasn't going up and down. May pressed the razor blade down on Brian's belly a few times in the same place. She lifted his

jersey, his jersey, and that's when she did it. I didn't see any blood. That was when she hid the razor blade and said, don't tell your dad or I'll get wrong. The scissors were in the corner near the blocks beside Brian's feet where I left them. We went back to White House Road, May went away, and I went into the house. About five o'clock I saw May outside. She had just had her tea. We took her dog down to the car park again and then went to see the Baron again. May said she would make him baldy and she cut a lump of hair off his head near the front. She put it on the grass above his head.

She pressed the scissors onto his belly a few times, but not hard. That was when the man shouted at them kids and she hadn't time to cut any more hair off before we ran away. And she drew a diagram of the marks on Brian's body. It matched exactly. This was an important statement, but the police still didn't know how they were going to arrest Mary Bell because who would prosecute an 11-year-old girl for murder. Ryan Howe is buried.

August 7th, a brilliant hot summer's day, Mary Bell has still not been arrested, not quite yet. Over 200 people showed up, burying hundreds of flowers. Mary Bell is standing in front of Howe's house when the coffin is brought out, and she starts fucking laughing. Seeing this, Chief Inspector Dobson realized that they could not wait to take Mary in. That something bad was gonna happen again if they did. In his words, my god I've got to bring her in she'll do another one. Mary's mother Betty was still away on one of her regular trips to Glasgow people said.

Uncle Daddy Billy Bell was away with his sister because no one in this neighborhood gives a flying fuck about raising kids. So police bring all four of the Bell children in and now Mary is ready to make her statement and she said Brian was in his front street and me and Norma were walking along towards him. We walked past him and Norma says are you coming to the shop Brian and I says Norma you've got no money how Are you coming to the shop, Brian? And I says, Norma, you've got no money. How can you go to the shop? Where are you getting it from? She says, Nebbe.

Which apparently means keep your nose clean. Little Brian followed. Norma says, Walk up front. I wanted Brian to go home, but Norma kept coughing, so Brian couldn't hear us. Or so Brian wouldn't hear us. We went down Cross Hill Road with Brian still in front of us. We went beside Dixon's shop and climbed over the

railings. I mean through a hole and over the railway. Then I said, Norma where are you going? And Norma said, do you know that little pool where the tadpoles are? When we got there there was a big long tank with a big round hole with little holes round it. Norma says to Brian, are you coming in here because there's a lady coming on the number 82 and she's got boxes of sweets and that. We all got inside then Brian started to cry and Norma asked him if he had a sore throat. She started to squeeze his throat and he started to cry. She said this isn't where the lady comes it's over there by them big blocks. We went over to the blocks and she says

oh you'll have to lie down and he lay down beside the blocks where he was found and Norma says, put your neck up when he did. Then she got hold of his neck and said, put it down. She started to feel up and down his neck. She squeezed it hard. You could tell it was hard because her fingertips were going white. Brian was struggling and I was pulling her shoulders, but she went mad. I was pulling her chin up, but she screamed at me.

By this time she had banged Brian's head on some wood, or corner of wood, and Brian was lying senseless. His face was all white and bluey and his eyes were open. His lips were purplish and had like, slaver on. It turned into something like fluff. Norma covered him up and I said, Norma, I've got nothing to do with this. I should tell on you, but I'll not. Little Lassie was there and it was crying and she said, Don't you start or I'll do the same to you." It still cried and she went to get a hold of its throat, but it growled at her. She said, Now, now don't be hasty. We went home and I took Little Lassie home and all.

Norma was acting kind of funny and making twitchy faces and spreading her fingers out. She said, This is the first, but it'll not be the last. I was frightened then. I carried Lassie and put her down over the railway and we went up Crosswood Roadway. Norma went into the house and she got a pair of scissors and she put them down her pants. She says, go and get a pen. I said, no, for what? She says to write a note on his stomach and I wouldn't get the pen.

She had a Gillette razor blade. It had Gillette on. We went back to the block so Norma on his stomach. And I wouldn't get the pen. She had a Gillette razor blade. It had Gillette on. We went back to the block so Norma cut his hair. She tried to cut his leg and his ear with the blade. She tried to show me it was sharp. She took the top of her dress where it was raggy and cut it. It made a slit. She hid the razor blade under a big square concrete block. She left the scissors beside him. She got out before me over the grass onto Scotswood Road. When we got along a bit, she says, May, you shouldn't have done it because you'll get into trouble.

And I hadn't done nothing. I haven't got the guts. I couldn't kill a bird by the neck or throat or anything. It's horrible that. We went up the steps and went home. I was nearly crying. The other day, Norma wanted to get put in a home. She says, will you run away with us? And I said, no. She said, if you get put in a home and you feed the little ones and murder them, then run away again. Okay, it's a crazy statement.

Now it's clearly a she said, she said. You know, they don't really have any forensic evidence. They're just relying on these girls' testimony, testimony of people seeing both girls in the area with Brian around the time he died Mary also admitted to breaking into the nursery and writing those notes notes that were confessions to Martin Brown's murder But she tried to play it off like she was just joking around At 8 p.m. That night Mary was charged with the murder of Brian Howe and she replied that's all right with me Okay

Norma to his charge and she replied I never I all right with me. OK. Norma too was charged. And she replied, I never. I'll pay you back for this. The two girls spent the first night after the arrest in two small rooms where they chatted away. Doesn't say if they were angry or friendly.

I would think they would be angry if they read each other out, but maybe not. Who knows? They would formally be charged in court the next day, first in the magistrate's court, then in juvenile court the day after that. Shortly after their arrest, both girls also underwent psychological evaluations. The results of these tests revealed that Norma was intellectually delayed and a submissive character who easily displayed emotion. Whereas Mary was a bright and cunning character prone to sudden mood swings.

Occasionally Mary would be willing to talk, but then she would rapidly become sullen, introspective, and defensive. The fore-side psychiatrist who examined Mary concluded that she suffered from a psychopathic personality disorder. In his official report compiled for the director of public prosecutions, David Westbury concluded, Mary's social techniques are primitive and take the form of automatic denial, ingratiation, manipulation, complaining, bullying, flight, or violence. In other words, already at the age of 11, these kids fucked up. And with that, the trial of Mary Bell and Norma Bell for the murders of Martin Brown and Brian Howe began at the New Castle Assizes on December 5th, 1968. Both girls were tried before Mr. Justice Cusack and a jury, and both pleaded not guilty to the charges.

Mary was defended by Harvey Robson, normally by R.P. Smith. Two girls sat alongside female police officers situated near their families. Immediately the trial was controversial. The judge decreed that the girls would not have anonymity in the press, which they normally would have had because of their ages, but due to the severity of their crimes, he went against protocol there. Rudolph Lyons would begin the case for the prosecution, acknowledging that it was, quote, an unhappy and distressing task that lay before him, the judge and the jury.

He acknowledged that Mary was the dominant force behind the murders, but said that both girls, quote, well knew what they did was wrong and what the results would be. Revelations made in the trial would turn the case into a media sensation, like when Norma said that the two had discussed attacking and killing more small children, both boys and girls.

Mary would testify for her own defense November 12, denying that she had ever harmed either of the children. She said they'd simply found Martin and that Norma had killed Brian. But Catherine Bell, Norma's mom, would make this hard to believe when she testified that she saw Mary trying to strangle Susan, Norma's sister, which she went over. Others would also testify to witnessing Mary's violent behavior in the neighborhood which doesn't look good for Mary. In the end Norma's lawyer claimed that the only evidence that existed against his client was Mary's claims. Harvey Robson

then delivered his closing argument on behalf of Mary telling the jury about her broken background and very dysfunctional family though not admitting to the abuse and that because of her upbringing and her personality disorder, she literally could not tell right from wrong. But if that was true, why was she so quick to lie and try and frame others for her crimes? Why not just admit what she did,

if she didn't know the difference between right and wrong? December 17th, the jury retired to consider their verdict. They deliberated for three hours, 25 minutes before reaching their verdicts, Norma Bell would be acquitted of all charges. Mary Bell would be acquitted of murder, but found guilty of manslaughter for both boys on the grounds of diminished responsibility due to her age. When the verdicts were read, Norma clapped her hands in excitement. Mary burst into tears.

In his sentencing speech, Mr. Justice Cusack would describe Mary as a continued danger to other children. Fucking hell, yeah, she was. Therefore, she was given an indeterminate sentence. She would not be released in theory until she was no longer deemed a threat. She'd initially be detained at Durham Remand Home before being transferred to a second remand home in South Norwood. She'd initially be detained at Durham Remand Home before being transferred to a second remand home in South Norwood. She'd then be taken to the Red Bank Secure Unit, a young offenders institution in Newton Lee Willows in 1969. She'd be the only girl there out of 24 inmates and that would not be a good thing. She would later claim that she was sexually abused multiple times by both a member of the staff and by numerous other inmates between

the ages of 12 and 15. In November of 1973, at the age of 16, she was transferred to a secure wing of HM Prison Style in Cheshire where she would apply unsuccessfully for parole. Then in June of 1976, Mary, now 19, was transferred to Moore Court Open Prison, where she took a course to become a secretary. Following the year, in September of 1977, she met another inmate, Annette Priest, and the two would escape. It's been several days, hanging out with two young dudes in Blackpool, visiting some beach resorts, museums, sleeping in hostels, before Mary Bell would be arrested at the home of

one of the men in Derbyshire on September 13th. She would then only lose prison privileges for 28 days for that escape. Soon, however, she would begin getting ready for a true escape, a release. Two years later, beginning in November of 1979, she worked outside the prison as a secretary and as a waitress under supervision. And then she was fully released in May of 1980 at the age of 23 having served almost 11 and a half years in custody Nearly the same amount of time that she had been alive on the outside before her arrest She'd be granted anonymity under a new name and this privilege would be extended to her daughter to whom she had given birth

May 25th 1984 Or will give birth I guess. It would even come to include her granddaughter who'll be born in January of 2009. Bell's current whereabouts are unknown and remain protected by 2003 High Court Order. According to that author referenced earlier, Gitta Serenny whose 1998 book Cries and Heard the Story of Mary Bell who wrote that Mary does not claim she was wrongly convicted and also freely admits that the sexual abuse she suffered as a child does not excuse her crimes and now today nobody knows where Mary Bell her daughter or granddaughter are. Should they?

I mean not her daughter not in her granddaughter's case but should they know where Mary is? Is she still a danger to society as an adult? I mean, she is 68 now. Or was it mostly the horrible circumstances of her childhood that led her to lash out like she did? Was she actually ever a psychopath? Is psychopathy something you can ever grow out of? Was she just misdiagnosed? Did she simply realize that if she killed again,

she could go to prison again for the rest of her life and that just wasn't worth the risk? Did she just decide not to kill again or did the urge truly go away? Once that door is opened, can it ever be shut? I hope in cases where someone does something like what she did when they were very very young, I hope that it can. Our brains are still so malleable at that age. Mary has never been as far as I, suspected of any other violent crimes. So I hope she truly did change.

Finally, I hope she raised her daughter in a much better fashion than she herself was raised. And I hope her granddaughter doesn't know, especially didn't know when she was little, what grandma once did to two innocent little boys. Can you fucking imagine? Can you imagine waking up from a nightmare at your grandma's house? You know, you're having a sleepover with a little kid. And then you start hoping, praying, that your grandma does not come in to check on you because she's actually a potentially scarier monster than anything you dreamt about. And that's it for this edition of Time Sucks, Short Sucks.

Take care of your kids. Love them. Pay attention to them. Don't abuse them in any fashion. Don't help create more of these fucked up stories. That being said, if you enjoyed this fucked up story, check out the rest of the Bad Magic catalog. Beef your episodes at Time Suck every Monday at noon Pacific time. New episodes. The now long running paranormal podcast, Scared to Death every Tuesday at midnight, with two episodes of nightmare fuel fictional horror that I write two episodes a month thrown into the mix. Thank you to Sophie Evans for her initial research on this one and for finding this topic, which we did touch on Mary's story in an episode of Time Suck a while back, but did not go into depth like we did here. Thanks to Logan Keith polishing up the sound of

today's episode of today's episode making that cool episode thumbnail artwork. Please go to badmagicproductions.com for all your bad magic needs and have yourself a great weekend. Add Magic Productions