Tin Foil Hat With Sam Tripoli - #123: Watchdogs Didn't Bark With John Duffy and Ray Nowosielski

Episode Date: September 11, 2018

It's time for the 2nd annual "Never Forget Never Again" Sept 11th episode of Tin Foil Hat with Sam Tripoli. This episode Sam welcomes the authors of "The Watchdogs Didn't Bark: The CIA, NSA And The Crimes Of The War Terror," John Duffy and Ray Nowosielski, to discuss the epic failures of the US Intelligence Community leading up to 9/11! This was an incredibly interesting discussion about one of the most tragic days in US history. Thank you so much for your support. Hope to see you soon at live upcoming event!

Welcome back to another episode of Tinfoil Hat. Tinfoil Hat. Tinfoil Hat. Come with me. Into the waters of conspiracy with Sam Tripoli. Sam Tripoli. Sam Tripoli. Sam Triplie.

Mr. Sam Tripoli. With my friend Ryan. Ah, hi Ryan. We're the first gay couple of conspiracy theories. I think it's beautiful, man. What you're going to be cool out there, partner? Say that again. It's a mythical deep, dark realm, crazy shit.

Wake up, Alan. There's reptile people everywhere. Hey man, where's the truth there, dog? What the fuck are you guys even talking about? Are you ready to get your mind-blown? Oh, Revolution will be podcasted. All right, welcome to Tinfoil Hat guys. I'm here once again. Ryan was unable to ti. to ti. ti.

tiole hat guys. I'm here once again. Ryan was unable to make it. So, but welcome, happy 9-11 day. Hope you guys are enjoying it. It's pretty soon we'll be having Hallmark cards coming out on this day. It's going to become another national holiday. A lot of stuff is coming on. I have some great guests to come on and talk about the whole event.

Every year we're going to do a show on this date, so we thought it'd be a great time to have these guys on. Before that, I just want to get into the shows that are coming up. Tinfoil Hack Comedy, that's right, Timfoyle Comedy is live at the Corner Comedy Club in Niagara Falls, Canada on the other side from Niagara Falls, America. So you can just come over Buffalo, Niagara, grab your tickets now. Go to Corner Comedy.com and check it out. And then on top of that, October 3rd is the, I'm gonna be live at the Brea Improv, myself, George Perez, the Smash Brothers, Mike Tully and Mike Katowie, would be joining me. Just go to the Improv.com or Breya. Improd.

tocko and grab your tickets now. The patron's cooking with gas. We're looking for a t-shirt guy. I know some of you guys are complaining about t-shirts. We're working on that. We're going to get that going. We appreciate all your support and love. So this is some big shows coming up. We hope you can join us. 9-11. It's here upon us again. We had a great episode. So we decided to do another following episode. If you watched John McCain's funeral, you realize that nobody has paid any price for the lies that have been perpetrated around 9-11 and the push of weapons of mass destruction and

Iraq and all that bullshit. Nobody paid a price for that. They were all sitting there walking freely, you know, while our sons and daughters were sent to wars and they came back, hurt, crippled. The numbers, depending on who you talk to, and the amount of soldiers, ex-soldiers come back and, you know, PTSD's, you know, and they end up committing suicide or anywhere from one a day to 22 a day, depending on who you're talking to.

That's, that's, that's, whether, whatever number you talk about, that's still too much. And nobody talked about it. A lot of failures happened on that day, and I'm excited to bring the authors of an amazing book that was put out. The book is The Watchdogs Did Embark, the CIA, NSA and the crimes of the war on terror. Joining me here today are two amazing authors and I'm very excited to interview them. They were nice enough to come in and, you because this does involve 9-11 come and talk about please welcome to show John Duffy and Ray Noah Chesky. Did I get even close? Very close. That was spot on. Oh my god thank you guys for coming on. I can't

thank you guys enough because you were supposed to be on in a couple weeks but I thought with the nature of your book. It was good th th th th th th th this this this this this this this this this this th this this this this th this this this th this this th this th this th this this this this this this this this this this th th th thus this this th. th. this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this th. th. th is does does does th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is thus thus thus thus thus thus to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thus to thus thus thus thus guys enough because you were supposed to be on in a couple weeks, but I thought with the nature of your book, it was good to get it out right now. And wow, man, thank you so much for coming on. Can you tell us a little bit about your book? The watchdogs don't, didn't bark. A little bit and then we'll get into the whole stuff. What's the book about? What's the book about tho book about tho book about? tho book about, thoo, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi book, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th. th, th. th. th. th. th. And, th. And, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho. And, too. And, tooo. And, too. And, too. And, too. And, too. And, too. It's, tho. It's, tho. It's th book about, I think we describe it differently every time somebody asks us that, but you know, it's really about accountability and you mentioned nobody paid a price. Whatever you do or don't believe about 9-11, I know there's a lot of different thoughts

out there. The mere fact that nobody was ever fired is just sort of jaw dropping. And I think maybe that single fact alone is what's kept us on this subject way past when we wanted to move on to some other things. So I don't know, the book is, it really follows a group of people whose careers happened inside CIA, NSA, and FBI, from when they joined in the late 80s through to about 2015,

and it tracks who rises and who falls, and what maybe that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that tells tells tells tells tells tells tells tells tells tells tells tells tells us us us tells tells tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is tel is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is te is teaa, tea, tea.ea.ea.ea.ea.ea.ea.ea.ea.ea.ea.ea.ea.ea.ea. te isa. teas through to about 2015 and it tracks who rises and who falls and what maybe that tells us about how the system really works versus maybe you know how we're told it works. So yeah I've read a little bit of it it's a man if you love Timfoil Hat if you love conspiracies if you love all if you love geopolitics you love this book is for you man you know this book is for you you know fuck Carly B versus Nikki Minaj and that old stupid fight you know the real deal is like the the information war that's going on right now and who's fighting in who's not fighting it and this story is amazing it basically breaks down how the intelligence agencies completely failed.

Completely failed to do anything to stop 9-11. And when we, you know, what you sent me is just like the secrecy and all that stuff, it's amazing. But let's start from the beginning. Where does this whole thing start? So you guys, on 9-11, where were you guys? We were young, at the time we were both in college. We both went to film school and that's where we met at Columbia College, the film program in Chicago.

And we had been friends, we had worked on several film projects together. And then, of course, it was weird because our school started a little late, like a lot of other schools were already back in session, but Columbia didn't start till, you know, I think after 9-11. I'm pretty sure a few days after that year. So I was laying in bed at my house when it happened, and then, you know, the whole thing went to fuck. But, you know, I think the important the important the important the important part the important part the important the important the important the important the important the important thapapape the important the important thi thi th fuck, but you know, I think the important part was we were young at the time, we were ambitious at the time, I think we were, like everyone, sort of overwhelmed with what we were at the time, but we already had skeptical minds.

I don't think we are politically where we were back then, but we were very inquisitive back then, and we already had pretty hard anti-war stances and I think we were kind of like all right maybe this Afghanistan one does have to happen I don't know but we definitely when Iraq came around we're like all right they're really taking a big fucking left turn on this but anyway so yeah we were young college age and and I don't know specifically what Ray was doing that day but it ended up really shaping as two guys who were in film and who are dancing around and playing with documentary film. It started and it became this real motivating sort of subject matter for us.

Ray, what were you up to? Do you remember where you were when you found out about 9-11? But it's a pretty standard story. I mean, I was getting ready for work. In school, the semester hadn't restarted yet at Columbia College Chicago, so yeah, I was getting ready for my job. I got it. I hadn't watched TV that morning. Phone rings.

I answered it. It's my dad. He said, no, why? And he was very pre-scient. He was like, America's been attacked. We're at war. Your life just changed, which is just really weird that he had probably just gotten that news maybe like a minute before that. And it did change, you know, it changed my life.

It changed everything. Yeah. There, pre-911, post 9911, two different worlds, man. Two different words. Right, so clearly. Yeah. None of us have really liked the direction things have gone in since. So I think a lot of folks, I think that's one of the number one reasons a lot of

folks continue to focus on it, even as it ends what 17 years in the in the rearview. It's sort of like what happened there and what direction we did decide to take and was that the right choice? I'm less into these days the I so you mentioned conspiracy theory. I've sort of spent my my like being here's like I'm not a conspiracy theorist that we do it. But maybe it's a lost cause. Maybe we just kind of are. But I think the difference for me is that we've sort of had a cause, which is to try to spotlight who did wrong

or who lied about it, who covered up afterwards to protect themselves. And, you know, who ended up in really high positions, who, you know, grew their power and continued to do more wrong because they weren't held accountable the first time. And sometimes I run into people who are very fascinated with the 9-11 issue, but they're kind of just like amateur Sherlock Holmes who just sort of like really just want to get to the bottom of things because they're just fascinated the the they're just fascinated fascinated fascinated fascinated fascinated fascinated fascinated fascinated fascinated fascinated fascinated fascinated fascinated fascinated, they're just, they're just, the their, their, they're just, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, their, their, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thoooooooooooooooooooooooooom, the, thi, thi, thi, thi of things because they're just fascinated by the story. I'm not personally, I'm just, that's not what motivates me. I really want to see, you know, some positive change come about by getting to the bottom of what really did kind of go wrong so that we, like the Jersey Widows who first inspired us, who lost their husbands that day.

You know, we just believe very simply that if we can figure out what actually went wrong, then you can fix the system. Perhaps. Perhaps you can find ways to better safeguard against these things happening in the future. Well you know, for me, what you guys are doing right now is journalism. This is real journalism. And I don't know if you guys can see yourself journalists, but maybe you're journalist filmmakers, but what you're doing is what is important. And what we've seen now is kind of our

mainstream media has now just basically become just an, or maybe it's more blatant, that's always been, but now it's more blatant, just an arm of the military industrial complex and the not questioning of anything and actually the helping to sell war and sell all these stuff and to, you know, within seconds of the event, they already know who did it, all this stuff, you know, they find a passport of a guy like blocks away. I mean, there's an incineration of a plane and somehow the passport makes it. There's stuff like that just that doesn't make sense,

but nobody questioned it. Nobody questioned it because it was such a traumatic event in time. And you know, a lot of people feel like, oh, conspiracy theorists, it's this demon name, and a lot of that was done on purpose. From the, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th, th, th, th. th. the thi, and, thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, th. the, th. th. th. tha, tha, tha, tha, that, that, that, that, tha, tha, tha theorists, it's this demon name, and a lot of that was done on purpose from the, you know, the assassin of JFK, that's where the term basically got its life. The, the government used the term to make anybody who questioned the assassination of JFK, you know, crazy, co-conspiracy theorists, which now we all know what the conspiracy theorists were saying it's true. And, and, and, and, and, and, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, they, thi, thi, their, their, they, you'll, thi, thi, thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, the, they, they, they, they, the, the, the, theorists were saying it's true and you know so I get it but anytime you sit there and I talk to a lot you know I do Jimmy Doors show a lot he's you know he's very much into politics and he's very

weary being called a conspiracy theorist and that that makes them nervous but I'm like you talk about people conspiring all the time and it's just basically falling for the demonization of a phrase. to to the the the to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. the. I'm the. I'm the. I'm th. I'm thi. I'm thi. I's thi. I's the. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's. I's. I I's. I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I. I. I. I. I. I. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm t. I'm t. I'm te. I'm te. te. I'm te. te. I'm te. I'm te. te. I'm te. I'm t. I it's just basically falling for the demonization of a phrase to get people not to question stuff. So nobody knows whether Watergate happened. If you believe in Watergate, they're not like, oh, so you're a conspiracy theorist. They tend to use the term when they really mean, like if somebody says, oh, are you a conspiracy theor, thi. theory, so, the answer is, the conspiracy, the conspiracy, the conspiracy, the conspiracy, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the, the, like, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, is, the, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to the. the, the. the. theory is what they mean is like, oh do you believe in unfounded wacky theories? Yeah, right. Answer is out of conspiracy. And just like any group of, you take any group, let's say Green Bay Packer fans, right? There's some cool Green Bay, Pat. Most of the Packer fans are cool, cool people.

There's gonna be fringe whack jobs, the name their kids after every fucking, you know, quarterback that played for the, for the, for the, for the, for the Green Bay Packers. And it just, there's always going to be fanatic whack jobs in any group. But, and the problem is, with this group, is that they get labeled the crazy so that nobody wants to join them. You know, as I've done this podcast, I more more people who kind of whispered me i'm in the conspiracy theories but don't tell anybody that you know because they don't want to believe

and just i have to put it out there i did name my daughter britney far but uh... uh... uh... but uh... uh... but uh... i didn't but uh... i a great name. It's a great name. And you can't. But anyway, what you said, you know, that we're journalists, I think we think of ourselves as journalists or at least, you know, independent journalists or independent investigators or whatever.

I think we think of ourselves in that context, at least, you know, within these sort of projects that when we work on them. It's tough because obviously right now there are certain wings of the media that have gone totally to shit. I think the big cable TV media has almost entirely gone to shit. Your CNN, MSNBC and Fox News, I mean they are just, it's just like political party talking points and then they all just repeat them and it's depressing. And even you look, if you look at the New York Times like the op-ed sections and stuff, you're like what the fuck is this trash.

But the problem is a lot of people want to say, fuck it, all of the corporate media is all bad. But there's, there are good journalists still out there working and I imagine for them it's more maddening than it is even for us but I mean it our book would not exist if it weren't for people you know journalists who worked on their own projects in their own time but also who wrote for the New Yorker who wrote for the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Baltimore Sun, you know, a variety

of people from a variety of different places who they did a lot of nitty-gree work that we then built upon. So I would like people to at least know it's like, yes, you just have to be selective. It's like anything. You don't just look at one thing with a broad brush and say, it's all trash or it's all great and amazing. You gotta be selective with the media and, you know, just use your mind, use your brain and see who's just spewing talking points and see who's actually out there digging up good stuff.

And it's mostly in print. It's mostly the writers who are in print that are still doing really good work. Yeah, for sure. And you know, it's, and there's, I mean, like a lot of people want to shit on YouTube, but there's a lot of people who work very hard and do a lot of research and to put a YouTube video. Now, equally, there's some crazy YouTube people out there. And again, it's called, use common sense. th. And, and th. And, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. I, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the the the th. the the th. th. I th. And, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, there. And again, it's called Use Common Sense. You know, for me it's like, and some people, you know, it's a conspiracy podcast. There's some people to tell you that most of history is a lie. It was written by the winners and made them to sound well, you know, that they were all good people and, you know, there's a manipulation of the powerful, the powerful manipulate, you know, the masses to, you know, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, to follow, the the the the the, the, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they.o, they. So. If, they.o, to, to, they.coe, they.coe, they. And, they. they. they. the, the, the, the, the, the powerful, the powerful manipulate, you know, the masses, to, you know, to get into, to follow along the lines of what makes them money and stuff like that. You know, so there's,

you know, you could apply that to anything. I think you should always use common sense. You should study what you know of history and say does this make sense? That what they're telling does it fit in the patterns? I find a lot of times it doesn't. When I follow something on the mainstream media and, you know, I find, I go, I ask myself, who does this information benefit? And it just happens a lot. I mean, with the promotion of weapons of mass destruction, and the the threaten, the weapons of mass destruction, and know, the right fell for the weapons of mass destruction

and the left is following for Russia Gate right now. And it's all, you know, when the Clintons deregulate the media and they got down to five people owning everything, you know, it's just how it goes. You don't buy all that media if you don't want to control the message. Now is everybody in on it? I don't think so. But I, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you th. th th. th. th, you th, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, thi, th, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, thr. thr-I. thr. thr-I. thrown, thin, th. th. th. 't think so. But I, you know, when you see the Sinclair media video come out, where like 30 different stations have the exact same talking points. You know, that lets you know something. You know, back in the day before the Clintons, what, like, like 90 companies owned 90% of media. It was, it was a little different back then. But...

I can really good example of what you're talking about because, you know, in 2011, we essentially deduced the name of this alleged human rights abuser within the CIA. And she, okay, I want to get into that. I just want, I want to set this up so they can know because that story is insane to me. Yeah, you guys are doing. Go on. That's where I was where I th th th th. I th. I th. I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that's th. th. that's th. th. th. th. th. th. that's. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. the. to. th. th. th. the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th me. Yeah. You guys are doing. Go on. Well, that's where I was going with it is, you know, even all these years later, it still has barely reached the mainstream, even though, you know, it's clearly of national relevance and, you know, has been reported by everyone from us to about now Glenn Greenwald.

And get still... It's crazy, right? It is crazy how this information is out there, yet it does not make it. And it's like I try to tell people that. Like, you know, when you try to bring information to people, okay, about what you think is really going on, you've done your research, you're like, okay, I do believe this is happening. I can present it to people, and you present them all these different and it's from all these different sources if it's not ABC NBC CBS or you know with the conservative people Fox they don't want to believe it if you go hey dude here's this amazing

article and a website it's called hang the bankers they're like oh this sounds reputable and it's just like it's just done on purpose. And you asked you asked you you asked how our story started. I mean, that was the first thing we, post-college, you know, I think we both originally got into film school to do quote-unquote real movies. Those proved to be a lot more expensive, so we decided to make a documentary. And one of the, and one of the first subjects was we wanted to know why we were, there was something called the History Commons and there was a guy Paul Thompson who had been in the Esquire Genius issue and he collected like 10,000 mainstream news stories, but he'd like pulled all the pertinent facts and quotes out of

them and then reordered them into a chronological timeline. So instead of any editorializing, you could just kind of like see the list of facts. And when you, when he did it that way that way that way, that way, that way, that that th, th, th, th, th, th, th see the list of facts. And when he did it that way, with the 9-11 topic or the War on Terror, what you would discover was that the narratives we were seeing on the nightly news that everybody was sort of like soaking up into their consciousness were not the same. They didn't match up to sort of the narratives of just the chronological facts as dissected from these 10,000 news articles. So we went th, we went th, we went th, we went th, we went th, we went th, we went th, we went th, we went th, we went th, we went th, we went th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, thus, thus, thus, thi, thi, thus, thus, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th. th, th. th. th. th, th, th. th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, that, thean, that, thoooooooooooooooooooooooooo. thean, thean, the. the,000 news articles. So we went out to D.C. in New York originally to talk with people like at the time Walter Cronkite was still alive, he did an interview, you know, we went to Len Downey, the head of the

Washington Post, interviewed him, blah, blah, blah. And we were asking that, you know, kind of that question, theyme. to the idea of like, you know, the, thlen, thlen, th, th, th, th, th, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th.a.a.a. the, the, the, the, this stuff you're talking about, we have reported it. It's like, yeah, but reporting it once is not the same as turning it into like a media narrative that like, you know, that everybody has heard about and understand this is important. And only the big news outlets can do that. They have the ability to do it discover and my own friends will kind of go, you know, you have another one Rummy, you know what I mean? So it's pointless because they'll believe, essentially they'll believe the lack of coverage by MSNBC, CBS and Fox, you know, and NBC and the rest of the guys over what we might say with our crazy like story and gawker or something.

And we call those people goldfish on the show, they're goldfish because they only remember what's in front of them, right? So they got their little fishbowl and they swim around it and whatever's in front of them is the only thing they remember. They don't remember way back like no, you know with the death of John McCain and all these people go in th. and th. and th. and th. and th. and th. and th. and th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And thi and thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th. And whatever th. And whatever th. And whatever is th. And whatever is thi thi tho tho tho th. And whatever th. And whatever th. And whatever th. And whatever is th. And whatever is th. And whatever is th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the th. the the th. And th. And th. th. th. th. the th. the th. And th. And they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they're th. they're, th. th. th. thi. th. th. th. th. th. you know with the death of John McCain and all these people go in this funeral and Everybody just try and convince me the candy man George Bush is a great guy You know, you know, it's it's unbelievable to me how people just forget and then they get played like a Stu they like dude the media has everybody down to like they can play them like a guitar and they can make them well when they want to and just all the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. they. they. they. the they. they. they. the the they. the the the the the the dude the media has everybody down to like they can play them like a guitar and they can make them whale when they want to and just all of a sudden this issue becomes the biggest issue in the world and everybody's losing their

skull and then once the media doesn't play anymore basically telling you it's not an issue it goes away like trans in the military like that you would think that was the end of days coming up that that that that th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th. th. th. th. You th. You th. You thi I thi. You the the the. You the. the. the of the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the the the the. the the the the the. the the the. the th. the th. the the th th the th. the th. thi th. thi thi the. the. the. the. the. the. the the the the the the the theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. the. the. the. the. the military. Like that, you would think that was the end of days coming up. That thing was, I mean, every humongous actor was tweeting about it. Like, I live in LA, there's like 12 of them. It's like people were acting like it was the end of fucking days. But that became a huge issue, and everybody's tweeighed about it. And then two days later, the sake of conflict, just to disagree with you a little bit here, and not to sound pretentious, but like, I spent the last five years out in New York City,

I was working for a two-time Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker. She ran in a lot of semi-elite circles, so I got kind of introduced to a lot of these folks, plus, you know, you thrown, whoever, right? And like, it wasn't, I didn't get the sense that this was like, from on high, these, like, this cabal of like eight people are telling everybody what to tweet or report about. It's just like, I mean, in the case of Russia gate, They saw him as an... I get that. What he might grow into. Right. And they started looking harder than they've ever looked at anybody for dirt, right? And somebody laid down a narrative, which I got to admit, I'm on the fence about, I don't know if it's true or not. I'll be really interested to see what, uh, I understand the facts are not into the, you know, to the level the the the the the the th of the th of the fact th of thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thr-a. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. t t t tee. te. te. te. toda. te. te. te. te. true. thi. true. that a lot of people would like on the on the Russia gate, but I feel like there's a lot of smoke there and I have no fan of Trump myself. So anyway, we don't have to get into the weeds of like blue versus red, but...

No, I'm cool. That's, dude, again, like, you know, everybody's allowed to have their own opinion on everything, you know, and it's tot tot th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi thi, their thi, their thi, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their throwne.e. thoe. thoea.ea.e. thoooooe.e. thea. thoooooooooe. there's a lot, there's, there's, there's fine with that. And you know, when you think of 9-11 and after 9-11 with the weapons of mass destruction, and when you're like, well, these people are saying one thing, the UN, you know, the people go in there and look, they say there's nothing there, and then people just try to come up with scenarios to make it work, and it's fine. And we can disagree on Russian Russian thus Russian thus Russian thus Russian thus Russian thus Russian thus Russian thus rush rush rush rush rush rush rush thus thus thus thus thus thus that we can disagree on that we can disagree on that's that's that's that's that's that all that and that's that's totally fine but what I find is this fevered pitch that the the media is pushing right now when polls show after poll after poll that like Russia gate and Russia scare is not what they're worried about right now you know like the numbers are so fucking low unlike is this an important issue to you and most people are like no I've moved've moved on, it is what it is.

And, but yet, you know, going back to where you don't hear the stories, like, you know, we got the Wam Brothers trial. And, you know, people said, oh, this big conspiracy thing that everyone's bringing up. And they got all they got was banking fraud. But nobody tell, the news the news the news the news the news the news the news the news the news the news the news the news the news the news the news the news. The news. The news. The news. The news. The news. The news. The news. The news. The news. The news. the news. the news. the news. the news. the news. the news. the news. the news. the news. the news. It was, the news. It was, the news. It was, the news. It was, the news. It was, the news. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was, th. It was. It was. It was. It was, the news. It was. It was, the news. It was, the news. It was, the news. It was, the news. It was, the the the the the th. It was, the th. It was, th. It was, th. It but nobody tell the news never told anybody that Debbie Wasserman showed a key figure in this trial she was the one who employed the Awan brothers. The prosecutor was her brother. The brother was prosecuting the fucking criminals and it was just like of course they didn't get anything and like but the media doesn't tell you any of that and then therefore nobody thinks it's anything course they didn't get anything. And like, but the media doesn't tell you any of that. And then therefore nobody thinks it's anything because they put themselves in the position of these, these people like Rachel Maddow's or whoever you want to say.

And they would go, if I was doing it, I would be telling all the facts. Well, they're not. that the mainstream media has become a mouthpiece of the war machine? I think you're absolutely right that the mainstream media is a mouthpiece of the war machine. It's funded by military contractors, right? But I think one thing we really learned across the time that we were doing research on our previous projects and then this one, because a lot of what we've done is sort of also media criticism. If you look at our documentary film Press for Truth, there's a real media criticism angle to it. And like Ray said, we went into this, like, okay, we're going to use 9-11 as the cake study, but we want to know like, how is it that a narrative becomes the narrative?

And there's an outside perception, it's easy to just think, like, OK, the guys from the corporation hand out the marching orders, and everyone just goes, all right, these are the marching orders. I'm getting paid a lot, so I'll just say that. There's probably some of that. But I think the key thing that, at least really dawned on me, was that you wouldn't work for that news media outlet if you tham believe the shit they wanted you to say. You don't get in the room. It's not like they have to strong arm people at Fox to have this

heavily pro right-wing agenda. You don't get hired at Fox if you don't have a heavily right-wing agenda. So all the kids coming out of the media, you know, the colleges with the journalism degrees who are applying for these jobs and getting the internships. You. th. th. th. th. th. You. You. You th. You th. You the th. You the the th. You the th. You the th. the th. the th. th. th. the thi. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. the. the. the. the. thee. thi. thi. theee. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the colleges with the journalism degrees who are applying for these jobs and getting the internships. Like, you don't get filtered up into the thing and in the machine unless they're like, oh, this one's on the team. So yeah, they're going to throw them some money. And when you come down with, when they throw them the that and go, this is a boring, my conscience, I can't possibly say this. They go, yeah, that looks good, that makes sense. I see that. I could, I totally agree. 100%, you know, 100% for sure. I worked for a little while on the Vice HBO show as a producer,

and like, that would be a good, for instance there where, you know, I only really saw Shane Smith when I was going to the bathroom because the line to the bathroom was right near where the glass was for his office, but we, uh, everybody who worked there was already there because they kind of liked what Shane had put together. They kind of got what a vice segment covered and what it didn't cover. And when we were pitching segments, we would pitch within that arena. We were just going to, you know, we're just gonna pitch something that was outside, that sounded like it would belong on Fox News, we'd pitch a vice segment.

For sure, for sure. For sure, like I, that's why, you know, we pick our past we go down, because, you know, that you can apply it to stand up comedy. It's like, I'm a dick joke, thak, thick, thick, thick, I, I'm a, thick, I'm a, thick, thick, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that, that, that, that, that, th................................................................. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to, th. to, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, enjoy doing so I don't try to do the comedy will get you on the on the cruise ships and all that stuff where these guys make a lot of money that's just not for me and that's I'm sure Rachel Meadows leans to the left and I'm sure that whoever's on Fox News that we want to talk about I don't even know who's on Fox news but they would leave you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you they they th they they they th th th th they th they th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. th. I th. I th. I thi. I thi. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. tho. the. the. the. I that's to talk about. I don't even know who's on Fox News, but they would leave, you know, they lean that way and they do believe it and that's why

they're able to sell it more and that's why they they play ball, the initiations you can even get into more political stuff about that. But I want to get into what you guys to because the story is incredible. It the-o' thr-in is th. th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi thi they's they's they's they's they's they's they's they's they's they's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. the. thee. theeeeeean. theean. theeeeean. they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're then you wanted to turning into a podcast? Did I get that right? You guys were thinking about doing like a serial type podcast, a documentary podcast? Yeah, but this gets back to the whole media thing because we got a small amount of funding for me essentially to come out to New York and work with this guy Rory O'Connor who had started something called Global Vision Production Company in Manhattan that had been operating for like 15 years. And we got a little bit of funding to basically put together a proposal that would have made this into a documentary that would have gotten

to the bottom of this back in 2008. And I was working, we were working with Duffy on it, and we we shopped it around to everybody who funds these things. And we kept getting told at the time in 08 was, you know, nobody's interested in 9-11 for one thing. And this was still a little too out in like Cuckoo Bananas Land as they saw it for them to want to go to. Which is so funny because now we've written this book that's about like the war on terror and the war on whistleblowers and accountability and I don't even want to talk about 9-11 and it's all anybody wants to focus on so that the thing is completely split but at the time yeah we tried to get it made and so what we did was we had gone out there and along the way we've been doing like phone interviews with people who worked in the government, people who had worked in the White House, like big people who'd worked counterterror who were on the front lines of trying to stop Al Qaeda in the years ahead of 9-11 and after.

And they were all telling us about some really messed up stuff. And we felt this sort of obligation after enough time had gone by when we couldn't get a film funded, like we wanted to do it in a different way. So why not just take the audio that's cheap. We could cut it together into kind of like a true crime narrative like a serial before serial and tell these tell the story and that was that was the plan. And then we got threatened by we tried to do our due diligence with the CIA and that was look at dude you are what every conspiracy theorist is their giant fear. I mean, their giant fear is getting suicided. And the fact to you guys were like kind of going and talking to the CIA and them shooting back,

that's, that scares me. That's balls, dude. That's why I respect the fuck out of what you guys, because that to me is what you're supposed to do. And like, you know, go on. It's funny. It's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, th th th th th th th th th thi thi's funny, thi's funny, thi's funny, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi, their thi, thi, thi, thi, their their thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiii. thiiiii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, what you're supposed to do. And like, you know, go on. It's funny because we just, we were trying to be good journalists. Yeah, right? Like, we had all these people telling us all this stuff. And we've been putting things together and we've been doing a lot of research into public records

and trying to grab names and, you know, we basically have a production. We have a storyline, we can lay it out, we have our general hypothesis and plot. But to be good journalists, we should present this to the people who are sort of being accused and give them an opportunity to explain the situation, right? We should be like, okay, like George Tenet, well, why didn't you say that? Or whatever. For sure. So, they they they they they they they they they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they have, they have, they they have, they have, they have, they they have, th. th. th. tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to be, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. to to to to to to to to to to toee toe toe toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toe. toe. toe. to to be to? You know, or whatever. For sure. So we have a media office.

We contact their media office with this sort of general like, all right, we're going to be releasing this podcast. We're going to be naming these individuals and we're going to be making some of these claims. And would you like a chance to respond? And then it was, which, we're out in an email from some Randos naming some of their agents. This is the equivalent of political jackass. Like when you saw Jackass do these crazy stunts and you're like, oh dude, they're nuts.

Nobody's that crazy to do that shit. And then you guys, you guys are fucking like, call you, hey, CIA, we're gonna talk about this stuff. You want to come on in our podcast? Like, that to me is like, you know, we have a saying on this show that the, the revolution will be podcasted and that is basically what you guys are doing. You guys are taking truth to power and you guys are shedding light on something that needs to be, man, that's some balsy-ass shit, dude. Thank you. I think we were just dumb. I think we thought there was a shot that they might actually interview with us because we'd gotten enough. You know, for instance, the month before we got the threat,

we'd been sitting on that. So, you know, your audience doesn't know because they haven't read the book. But basically in 2009, we sat down with Richard Clark, who was the top guy for counterterror. It didn't get any higher than him anywhere in the U.S. government. He had been appointed to that to the White House counterterrorist position under Clinton, and then it continued, one of only two people, really, to continue from Clinton to, to, to, to, through to 9-11 and then, you know, even a year plus after until he finally had left. And we went and talked with them in 09 and he did something that most former officials are not going to do, which was that he used some really specific legalistic language. He accused George Tenet and a number of people, George Tenet being the former CIA director at the time of 9-11 in the Iraq war and so on, him and a number of people who worked

for him of quote-unquote malfeasance and misfeasance. In deliberately, he was convinced, deliberately withholding information about two of the 9-11 hijackers for a year and a half prior to, including, including at a meeting that happened at the White House that Clark had been begging for for the entire Bush administration's first term up to that point from January through September. And he finally got his meeting on terrorism, September 4th, and George Tenet's there. And we now know, and it's well documented in the book, the tenant was aware at that time of the two hijackers the future the future hijack, the future hijackers, th... And th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, they, they, they, they, th, they, they, th. And, they, they, they, they, they, they, the, they, they, they, they, they, th. And, the, th. And, the, th. And, th. And, the, the, th. And, th. And, th.. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, the th. And, the they. And, they. And, they. And, te. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And,that time of the two hijackers that were the future hijackers that were in the US as well as the guy Zacharias Masawi who had been you know detained in the Minneapolis

while trying to learn to fly. But not land, not land, just learn to fly. Right. That part actually wasn't true. Really? Yeah, that just got spun out of the rumor mill. I don't think he actually said that. I have to go back and check that, but I don't think that's actually true. All right. But he was suspicious as fuck for a lot of other reasons. Well, I mean, like, so were they even great pilots, right? Were they even great pilots? I don't even think they were, I don't even think think think th think th th th th th th th think think think think think think think thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that he that he that he that he that he that he that he that he that he that he that he that he that he that he that he th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, that, that, he's, he's, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, thi. the. that's, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, that's that's that that that that's that of gold stars in pilot class. I don't think they... I think that some of that stuff actually serves the... There's like, there's the stuff that's really afraid of coming out because they've been caught red-handed withholding this information and we can go into Richard Clark's idea on why they withheld it.

And then there's all these little things floating around it that sort of distract you and you end up just going, well, that's weird, that's all really weird. When I think you should really focus in razor sharp on the story of exactly what was withheld by these specific people at CIA and NSA because we got the goods, man. We can see from the documents and the, you know, inspecting generals that went back and went to their computers, who accessed what? And the thing that had caused Richard Clark to flip out was when the executive summary of the CIA Inspector General's report was finally released one summer after a couple of senators finally pushed hard for it after it been withheld for a few years. And Richard Clark had always believed that it was just, as he put it to us, like a couple low-level CIA people who found out that these hijackers had arrived in the US

and hadn't understood the significance. And he reads in the Inspector General's report that the IG has gone back and looked at who accessed it at CIA this information and found that 50 to 60 people working at CIA, almost all of them, the majority of them filling this one office called Alex Station, the Bin Laden office. They were the ones who had all read this. So Clark flips out and he tells us this in 09. He goes, he says, I believe, you know, George Tenet, my former friend and a number of the people who worked for him deliberately withheld this from us and he stated his theory why. And he called it malfeasance and misfeasance. Andthat's just not something that generally someone at his level would do against somebody

at George Tenet's level. He knew what he was doing and that's why we were so shocked sitting in the room with him hearing him say it and lay it all out for us. And that's how we knew this wasn't a conspiracy theory like the type that you might hear on Alex Jones. A. A. A of him. This was coming from the guy who ran counterterror at the Clinton and Bush White House. So we sat up, you know. Did he ever say to you what he thought happened? How deep it went? What he said to us was, what he said is that basically, and people can watch this, we have a video, it's on YouTube that we released back in 2009, where we cut together Richard Clark's interview with us. It's about 10 minutes long, we cut it in with some stills and make it sort of like a little

mini teaser doc. So you can watch what he says, and yes, it's a little edited down and you get more quotes in the book we just released. We have a little more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more of of of of of of of of of th. th. th. thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi in the book we just released. We have a little more of what he specifically told us, but he says very clearly that he is entering into the realm of conjecture and hypothesis. So he's saying, I can't prove this, but the facts that I have, have really only one explanation that makes sense to him. And that is that when the CIA noticed that these Al-Qaeda dudes were gonna meet up in Malaysia right around the time of the millennium to have a little terror powwow

to make some plans for new things that we're gonna get into, the CIA sees this, they monitor it, and they notice, by breaking into the hotel room of one of these guys, Kaliya Midar travels through Dubai on his way to Malaysia. CIA sends some people to bust into his hotel room. They get his passport, it's got a US visa in it. They send a copy of that back to HQ, to Alec Station. And so basically Clark's theory is like, all right, the CIA has noticed this. They see that some that some some some some some some some some to the U.S. after this summit in Malaysia and that these people at Alex Station, they want the

goods on al-Qaeda. They want to flip them ostensibly. They want to turn these guys. But they can't do that domestically, they're not supposed to operate domestically. The CIA is not supposed to operate domestically. So that they're going to... They are spies after all, so that's what they do. They recruit people to feed them information so they know what's coming, right? Yeah, so, so they see that they're coming and they realize that if they get to the country, and law enforcement finds out about it, law enforcement might try to either get informants in with them or just straight up arrest him.

And that law enforcement would be the FBI. So they realize they got to keep the FBI out of the loop because the FBI will fuck it up. They also recognize, hey, can't send a couple Irish and Italian or whatever dudes from CIA down to be like, Golly! What's up baby? Right, right, right. So they work through Saudi proxies and go, all right, we'll get these dudes from Saudi Intel to run into them in California, they'll buddy up, they'll bring them into the community, and then we'll see where it goes from there. Now, it gets, you know, crazier from there because that's th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, thi, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. What thi. thi. What's, tha. What's, thi. What's, thi. What's thi. What's thi. What's thi. What's thi. tha. thi. they'll bring them into the community, and then we'll see where it goes from there.

Now, it gets crazier from there, because that's the beginning of the year 2000, basically. And so there's this 18-month window, essentially, or whatever, till 9-11, where a lot happens. But yeah, that's sort of the crux of Clark's hypothesis that the CIA wanted, they wanted a chance to go in and get these guys and to flip them and to use them in whatever way the CIA would find it profitable to use them. Now, Sam, I think it's interesting.

Well, George Tenet was well known to have close connections with the number of high-level Saudi Arabian officials. For sure. What about John Brennan was like BFS with those guys, right? Didn't even go over there and like there's rumors that he was invited to MECA, which which is like, you know, we've talked about us a thousand times I show where, you're you know, unless you're Muslim, you're not allowed to Mecca, unless the royal family invites you. So there's all that thing that he was out there actually for a little while.

John Brennan was a high-level official working for George Tenet during this period and he had previously been chief of station in Saudi Arabia. So there's no question that like if an op did take place to try to recruit these guys that blew up in the CIA's face and that they hit it afterwards it seems very likely that John Brennan would have been aware of that if not somewhat involved. Yeah. Yeah it's just like it's it's like that John Brenn drives me fucking nuts. So they'm saying out loud because I don't really want to give Trump more like ammunition to like sort of spew misinformation and use it to further divide us, you know what I'm saying? But it's probably the truth.

Yeah. Listen, I can, I can't, listen man. I'm somebody who, anybody who makes it to that office, I say you should question them every time. I don't care if you, if it's Santa Claus. If Santa Claus is the president, you should question everything because that's the office, the office itself is inherently, you know, I mean it's a dark art, you're in head of the, the world police organization. So it's my opinion, you should question question everything. to to question. I th to question. I th, I th, I th, I you, I you should th, I you should question, I you should question, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I you should question, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I say, I say, I say, I say, I thi, I say, I say, I say, I say, I you, I you, I you, I you should you should you should you should you should you should you should you should you should you should you should you should, I you, I you, I you, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I mean it's a dark art. You're in head of the world police organization. So it's my opinion you should question everything. I personally think if truth came out about John Brennan, we would, he wouldn't be allowed

to walk down the street. I personally believe that there is, and it's not ours, a Republican or Democrat thing. I think once you get in there at the highest levels, it's pro wrestling. And they all they all, th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's not, that's not, that's not, that's not, that's not, that's not, that's not, that's not, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's not, that's not, that's not, that's not, that's not, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's not that's not th. th. th. that's that's that's not that's that. that. that. that. that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not that's that's I think once you get in there at the highest levels, it's pro wrestling and They all work for the same masters. That's my that's just my opinion But I think it go on. He was a big advocate and overseer of the drones program, so there's no question. He's got a lot of, you know, the civilian blood on his hands. No one has to be sure. So this Alex station unit, they were in charge of counterterrorism to make. to to to to to the the to their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their their th. th. th. th. th. th. the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the their their their their th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the the. they. they. they. they. they. the. the. the. the. the. th. this Alex Station unit, they were in charge of counterterrorism to make sure, you know, to make sure either they don't get to the US or they don't attack the US, right?

So you put out this, okay, go on. Just, Alex Station was specifically dedicated to Osama bin Laden and his network. There was a counterterrorism center, the CTC. And there were like, other offices under that that that that that that. that. that. that. that. that. that. th. th. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to make, you to make, you to make, you to make, you to make, you to make, you to make, you to make, you to make, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, to make, to make, to make, to make, to make, to make, to make, to make, to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the counterterrorism center, the CTC, and then there were like other offices under that. Alec was dedicated to Bin Laden and the Al-Qaeda network. It was only like 50 people is important to understand too. And it was started by this kind of like wacky dude that even for the CIA, other CIA people thought like, something's weird

about that guy. His name was Mike Shoyer. And they also noticed that he stabbed, you know, he could have staffed his office with all kinds of different people, but he staphed him entirely with very young women who were almost entirely analysts who had no field experience. So they were all, they all became super loyal to him because he was one of the only managers they'd ever really worked for or known. He was a very intense guy and the rest of the CIA, most of them kind of ignored this office,

didn't think what they were warning about was anything to worry about. But the people who were aware of them kind of thou thaughed, thi. So the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people thi. The people thi. The people thi. The people thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. So, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I was thi. I was a thi. I was a thi. I was a thi. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, thi. So, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. the. the the the the the the the the the thi. the thi. the. the. the. the. th kind of thought they were a little weird. So at what point do you guys find out about this woman name Elfrida, Francis, how do you pronounce her last name, Bikowski? Bikowski, what an inter, man, that is a name in a half. I've never. Afrida, that's such a, I think it's Alfreda. But, whatever, like the sauce? Yeah... I think it's Alfreda. I think it's Alfred. Whatever, like the sauce? Yeah, I got...

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But she's a red sauce. So, you find out about her, if you focus on the 9-11 story, or even the story kind of following after that into torture and drones, if you read media reports or even some books like Jane Myers Darkside, this is a person who gets mentioned sort of over and over again,

whether in government reports about 9-11 or in this certain journalistic deep dives into the topic. She's a person who gets mentioned over and over again, but never strung together. They're always using a code name for her, or just a description. I think Jane Meyer ended up writing about her using her middle name, just Francis. Redhead only in that.

She wrote Redhead. Who used the middle name, Francis? Someone did. Adam Goldman and Matt Apuzo, who've gone on to the New York Times in Washington Post. They were writing for the Associated Press at the time. Yeah, so it was so interesting about her is that if you read all of this stuff as a well-informed citizen, you might see like, oh, this person over here at Alex Station lied about passing information the FBI. This person over here lied to Congress about torture. This person over here renditioned a totally innocent man and had him tortured for a fucking

month. And you would never know, oh, this is all the same person. Yeah, she sounds like a Kaiser So say, like until you knew her, you just thought there was this myth of this person that was just going around doing all this evil shit. And what I find so interesting, in particular the CIA, is like, you know, I believe in, I'm into diversity. You know, one of the things I love about living in the United States is the melting pot that we have. I do think we have a problem with identity politics. Like, you know, if you think that some group is entirely, if you think like a group, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the C... the, the, the C...................... the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the C.ci.ci.c. C. C. you think that some group is entirely if you

think like a group like African Americans or or if you think that whole group is evil we we we think that's disgusting in this day and age you know to generalize about a group like that is pretty disgusting but I think what is really dangerous as well is to automatically think a group of people is automatically all good mean you know and you see that a lot in politics where we're like oh if we have more women in office you know every corruption would be gone I go well I mean I'm money's money do now I'm care what your genitalia is or your gender and in this day in age there's 37 genders

but whatever your gender is that gender likes money they all like money so you can put anybody you want whether it's a white guy from Arkansas or a gay Asian from San Francisco or whoever you want in the office I want the best to bet but when the money comes the corruption is all going to be the same that's just my opinion you know but this whole thing with the what we find CIA is that that that the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi.a is. I I. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. th. I's is. I's is. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I I I I. th. I. I. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the.e.e. the. the. the. the. the. the. the corruption's all going to be the same. That's just my opinion, you know, but this whole thing with the CIA, what we find CIA is that there's actually some women who actually involved in some pretty dark-ass shit. Oh yeah, and actually a good point about that is so one of our people that we interviewed for the book is former CIA officer John Kiriaku. And he tells us very clearly, we talked a lot about the recruitment process. How do you the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. th. th. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. We's. We're. We're. We're. We're. We're. We're. We're. We're. We're. We're. We're. We're. We're. We're. We're. We. We're. We're. We're. the the the the the the the the the they. they. they. they. C. C. C. C. I. I. I. I. I. I. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. t. t. I. t. t. they. I. they. I. they. they. I.aku. And he tells us very clearly, we talked a lot about the recruitment process, how do you get into the CIA, you know?

And one of the things they very much are looking for are sociopaths. And they're sure, dude. And like this is, this is not, this is unapologetically. Now they don't, they try to not beat the lie detector and can go rogue a little more easily. But a sociopath can do all the things they need to do as an officer, and all the circumstances where they believe it's appropriate for them to lie or commit a crime, sociopath has no problem doing that. Now, if you, like I said with the media, you don't get in the fucking room if you're not already on the team. So the people who get tapped to join the

CIA at first, they're finding these, you know, young students at universities, at big universities, and they're saying like, they've seen what they've written, they've seen their dissertations, they've seen, you know, they've heard then when you get to the interview process, they go, all right, do we have a real sociopath here? Ah, exactly. What's their family history? So interesting. Hey, this person's likely to be damaged in this way.

Damage just enough, right? That they'll be willing to commit crimes, which is a key difference by the way between CIA and FBI. We had a guy, Mark Rossini, who was an FBI agent lifelong, you know, dedicated FBI guy and I don't want to carry water for the FBI again, not like they're not all good and they're not all bad. For sure. But the but the thing about the FBI is they do get it pounded through their head, that there's like a constitution and at the end of the day they're going to need to be able to make a case in open court that can put somebody away. So if they're going to do some shady stuff, they better make sure it's really like under the table because if it shows up in court it's going to undermine their case.

CIA, you work over there, he got embedded at the CIA. It's a get it done. So they almost, they're sort of the illegal arm of the U.S. government. They're where the government turns when they need some stuff done that isn't on the up and up, right? And so you need people who are willing to go there for God and country, and they've got a system down to recruit those folks. And there, and there has there has to be th th th their their their their their their their their their those books. And there and there there has to be this level of brainwashing. Well it's it's basically the initiation you hear it a lot if you ever read Bill Cooper's the pale white horse book you know it's the initiation and if you don't pass an initiation no matter what you do after that you can't advance to certain things. If you don't show you play ball at that moment.

And everybody plays ball. And you know, there's this famous meeting that could be urban legend about how all the heads of the record labels were put together in a meeting and they were told that all their companies have invested heavily into privatized prisons and that they're going to push gangster rap to push a certain type of lifestyle that would help these privatized prisons and you know some people want to believe it some people don't and you know whenever you bring that story up someone goes why wouldn't you why wouldn't you say something at that and because you

don't get to that meeting if you ask that question you know you're at that place you're a good what yes yes yes yes yes you you you you you you you you you you you you you to to to th th to th th to to to th to th th the th th th the to to the to the th the th to th to to to to to the the the th to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi they. they. thi they. thi they. thi thi thi thi their thi th you don't get to that meeting if you ask that question. You know you're at that place you're a good what yes yes yes yes yes yes yes you're a yes man and you do it you don't question the motive it's just do it. Interesting that you mentioned that because I started out saying that the book was about accountability right and that kind of maybe some of your listeners go accountability that you know that sounds boring. It's not boring it's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. the th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. th. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the th. the th. the th. the th. the th. the th. th. the th. th., that sounds boring. It's not boring. It's actually at the heart of what you're talking about because one of the things that never made sense to us from the beginning is you start finding out names of people. You start realizing who they are and then you realize that they were involved in the 911 withholding, right?

Okay, so they made a mistake. They thought they were doing something. It turned out to be something else. But afterwards, when it kills 3,000 people, there's got to be folks the CIA, including George Tenet, who do find out about this. And we documented in the book. A couple months later, they officially find out, whether he knew all along, I'm sure, Sam, right? Like, if they accidentally like, you know, let the office on fire, I think you're gonna like talk, you're gonna have a conversation, you're gonna find out how that went down.

Yeah. It turns out matches and gasoline. Yeah, then you're probably gonna tell him, look, I like you, but you gotta go. You got the that. theyp. to go to go to go to go to go to go th. th. that. the the that. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the office their the office. the office. their the office their their the office the office the office their the office their their the office the office their the office, the office. the office, the office. the office. the office. the office. the the office. the the the the the the the the office. the the the the the the the the the the the thi thioooooooo. thooooooooooooooooooooo thoooooooooooooo thooooooooooooooooo the the the the the the office the office on. the the the th. happens with these people who are playing with matches and gasoline at the CIA and then they go on to screw up again and then they go on to screw up again and the weird thing is that the ones who screw up over and over again in really damaging ways somehow rise meteorically and the ones who go hey what's going on here I do my job in a really good way in a really professional way you know and I'm like I'm try to tell people to the the the the the to to to to the to to to to to the the to to the to the the the the to tell people that this lady's a screw up, you should fire her, you should not keep her going again, and then those guys end up targeted for prosecution. Yeah.

On some charge emerges and they get the book thrown at them. And this other lady ends up with her identity protected from guys like us with, you know, a a a a a a us to tell us we might be violating the law by running a story on I don't know it is no it is 100% I believe 9-11 was darker than maybe you might be alluding to but that's a different show I think it's I think it's very very very dark and it's a lot of create I mean like George Tenet was a big part of the whole push to to weapons of mass destruction and he's yelling about slam dunks and all

that shit. I I think this was a plan a larger plan but I want to get back to you guys basically putting out this podcast we're about to put a podcast you guys were nice enough to tell the CIA you were about to do it and they hit you back and you told you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to. the today. the to to to to to to to to to theto tell the CIA you were about to do it and they hit you back and told you you might be violating laws. What law do they tell you, I have in front me, the Intelligence Identity Protection Act. Is that a real law? Yes. It's and it's funny because at the time I googled it. I was like, all right, let's let's see specifically what this says. And you know we laid out in the book because we actually put in the book our email chain at that time, our oh shit email

chain where we're like, oh fuck. And I and I Google and I look at the text and it's basically a law that is written to refer to people who have access to classified information. So if you work for the government and you have classified clearance and then you start going and spilling the beans about the identities of covert agents to somebody else, that's the crime. And it's not supposed to be people who like stumble upon the identity of a non-covert agent through public documents and then put it in a media store. Yeah. And there's there's a little bit of vague text in the law where it's like if through the

you know the course of some patterns of activities you come it's and you know anytime like they do that with law where they have that little fine print real vague section where they go I can apply that that to any. to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. And th. And th. And th. And th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that. that. that. that's that's that's that's that's that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that's th. th. that's th. th. th. th. th. that's. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I's. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. that's the. the. the. the. the. the. the. can apply that to anything. And so we kind of looked at that like, maybe, but mostly it was like, no, this is clearly intended for people, if you work at the CIA and you fucking start taking money from Moscow to out your fucking agents or to Beijing and you start outing your fellow agents. Oh, I got that. Then you're supposed to, this is the law that would apply to you to prosecute you, not to a couple of guys who are doing independent research. Right, right, right. Because you're just, this is basic freedom of the press, you know, the, yes.

That's basically the right to, like, that's what freedomthat's all about, is like the government not being able to throw you in jail because you said something they don't like. Yes. They didn't even have that law until the Reagan era. So this was not even something that goes back all the way to the creation of the CIA, which by the way is not that old. We got by without it prior to 1947. Maybe we can get by with it. For sure. Once upon a time, it was their job to protect their secrets. They would classify certain things top secret, and the people that worked there weren't supposed

to spill. And if they did, then, okay, maybe they could go after them because they had agreed to work there. But you're right. Journalists have every right to report anything that's true, period. But in particular, stuff where they are exposing abuse, waste, and fraud by people in power. That's like what journalists do, right? That's why we created the whole idea of journalism. That's what's supposed to be for sure. Now this woman, Alfreda, right? Yes.

Like, what is she, so, what is she done that made her so interesting you guys? When I read I'm like oh my god it's just the evil walks amongst us man. They walk amongst us. Um she so we get clued into her at first because there's this very particular moment. So remember earlier in the show I talked about there was a meeting in Malaysia of Al-Qaeda homies and they're all Alex Station and the people who are particularly focused on this wing of guys who organize out of a particular house in Yemen, they're all clued into this. These Alec Station officers are clued into it, they're paying attention to it and ultimately like I said some cable traffic comes back saying hey one of these guys has a US visa the US the US the US the US the US the US the US the US the US visa the US visa the US visa the US visa the US visa the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to come. to to the the to come. to to to to to to to to to to their. their. their. their. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to to to to to to to to to the to the the the the th. th. th. the th. th. the th. the the the the the th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thea. th. th're paying attention to it, and ultimately, like I said, some cable traffic comes back saying, hey, one of these guys has a U.S. visa to come to the United States, so to start looking into that guy, keeping tabs on him. And in these, this hot couple of days,

now there are a handful of FBI agents who are tasked over at Alex Station. So there's this program where like FBI counterterror guys and CIA counterterror guys swap people in order to like make sharing information more, you know, more effective. So these FBI guys start seeing this. They're like, oh, kind of dudes with US visas, we should probably send that back to FBI counter HQHQ in New York because that's going to be our turf. Right. And then they get this like hold off at Alex Station. They're like, whoa, whoa, hold on. Don't, don't send your memo to FBI just yet. Hold on. And they go, okay, we'll wait a second here. And then over the course of time, an internal memo get sent out there at

Alex Station saying, all right. Information has been shared, don't worry about it. But this one particular FBI agent, Doug Miller, he's like, I really need to share this. I really need to pass this. What's going on? Like, why can't I do it? And he has someone come up to him, a particular CIA officer, Michael and Casey, comes up and kind of gives him some lip.

And this is not a matter for the FBI, blah, blah. and blah, and blah, and blah, and blah, and blah, and blah, and blah, and thia, and thia, and thia, thia, thia, thia, thia, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, th FBI, blah, blah, blah. And Alfredo Bokowski, in reference to this whole situation, later when Congress is investigating 9-11 and gets sort of wind of all this cable traffic around the millennium, they ask, they're asking everyone, well, who passed it? You set this internal memo saying it got past the FBI, who passed it? And there was this rumor about this red-haired woman who worked at Alex Station who had claimed two investigators like that she had personally walked the information down to FBI HQ. She personally walked it in the door and plunked down the file. And then CIA, I'm sorry, the congressional investigators went to the FBI building, checked the visitor logs, never found her.

So they go back to her and they go, well, you said you walked it there, but we checked the logs and you never went there in that particular time frame. And she goes, oh, then I must have faxed it. And so that's how we first clue into this person, because we are hearing about this woman who lied, who claimed to have done it, and then really radically changed her story later. That's our first clue into who she. So crazy, lying to other,

so interesting, dude. Talk to the lady that ran the congressional investigation in 2002 that she essentially told that to. And that woman confirmed that like, you know, we were were the the same the same the same that the same that that that the that the that the that that that that that the that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that thiiiiiiiolioliole. that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that.. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that's. that. that's that's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that's th. that's that's that's that's that. that. that. that. that. that that that that. that. that she essentially told that to. And that woman confirmed that like, you know, we were asking the same question that you're asking the same one that anyone, you know, with the brain would ask, which is like, how do you make the same mistake so many times regarding these two guys? How does this repeat over a year and a half period? But they just, she said, look, thrown, thring isn't true that they deliberately withheld it, but in order for us to put that into a government document, we need a pretty high bar of evidence and we didn't have that evidence. They were the first investigation, though.

So then you know, the 9-11 commission looks into it, Tom Kane, we talked to him. to him, to anyone else in the media, but then again, no one else had asked him about that in particular. So I don't know, maybe he was sort of trying to look good to some, you know, some young investigators who'd gotten on to the trail, but, you know, so then, so you got the two first investigations into 9-11, and both of the leaders of those, thi....... And, their, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th, th. th, th. th, th, th. th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, too. And, too. And, too. And, too. And, too. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. looking into this you know in the early odds that like they were pretty disturbed by this fact around this person who you wouldn't even know existed. Duffy you're welcome to continue I just wanted to put put out the trail of evidence there. Yeah it's interesting now like do you if you sit there and they go, it's an inside job.

There's people go, 9-11 was an inside job. And I don't know if you guys are into that theory or not. But this kind of fits in with that in a weird way. You can isolate it a little bit, but when you take this and you put these other things you, it just seems like they were purposely trying not to get to get one one one one one to get to get to get to get to get to get to get one one to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to be. to get they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they........ they.... to. to... to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. the. the. the. the. the it just seems like they were purposely trying not to get anyone to investigate these guys. I think, I don't think either of us would use that particular phrase because I don't think you can boil such a huge thing down to a slogan. You know, and like, and I really don't like just our general political and information atmosphere in the United States where everything has to be bite the the the the th............ And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, to, to, th. And, th. And, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to be, to, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the thi, the the the thi, thi, the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th.. And, th.. And, th. And, th... And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, to, toee. And, toe. And, toee. And, toe. And, toe. And, toe. And, toe. And, toe. And, toe. And, thi. And in the United States where everything has to be bite-sized so like the goldfish can understand it in like a quick second and that goes both ways. So like not the 9-11 story is

fucking complex and there's a lot a lot of ins a lot of outs a lot of what have you and to just say ah it's an inside job it's like that doesn't really get it I don't think I think it makes it I too easy for th to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th to to th th th th th th th th th the the the the the to to to to to to to to to thi thi thi thi. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. that doesn't really get it, I don't think. I think it makes it, I think it makes it too easy for people to then just dismiss as well because it's like, well, that just sounds patently false. But, but, okay, I get that real quick, but do you think the, that there is enough evidence to suggest, not just in the event itself, but the following events in which particular people involved in the administration one way or another, enrich themselves beyond. Like, I mean, like, there's an old saying, follow the money.

And it's just like, maybe I'm not asking you guys to make a declaration right here in any way, because that's not really my style. I want you guys, whatever you believe is fine with me. But is it okay to go that maybe there is something that makes this a little bit more than a bunch of a duffes cops missed an opportunity? Yeah, I think it's totally legit if somebody wants to think, well, there's enough here. I mean, look, suspicion comes about when you're lied to, and you catch people lying to you. And I think this is something we've been saying like a mantra for, you know, over a decade

now is sort of like, you know, if there aren't people on the inside that are bad actors that are doing bad things, then like they're doing a disservice to their own work by lying so frequently to the American public that it becomes legitimate to suggest the most paranoid of suspicions, right? Right. I mean, you know, the very PC way of putting that. You know, the Jersey Widowsows our first documentary in o six followed you know these these four with women and mothers whose husbands went to work in the world trade towers and never came back

and they had not you know they were particularly political and they didn't know how to kind of like work the media or lobby congress but they were disturbed that nobody was intending to have any kind of a blue ribbon commission into this, you know, an investigation like they'd had around the shuttle disaster and all these tragedies of the past. So they went down and they figured out how to work the media and they figured out how to lobby people like John McCain and they got the commission called and one of the things, one of the people they had to fight, their the hardest was. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. And, th. th. their, thi. And, their, their, their, their, their, their, and, and, and, thr-a, their, and, and, and, their, their, their, their, and, their, and, and, their, and, and, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. And, t. And, t. And, t. And, t. And, their. And, their. And, their. And, their, their, their, the. And, thea. And, thea. And, thea. And, thea. And, their, their. And, those widows had voted for George W. Bush. So they were shocked to find that he didn't want an investigation. And if anything made them suspicious, it was the fact that why would you fight so hard to not have an investigation unless there's something there. That was like kind of what they kept putting out

there. For sure, sure. That's the thing out, how many times have we caught the Trump administration trying to withhold information regarding what they did or didn't know about Russia or Russian interactions, that sort of blows my mind when I hear people who are very into this kind of subject, it seemed to almost express with regard to Trump, almost no, like, they hold Trump to like a completely different criteria where like, when Bush, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. th. th. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to Trump to like a completely different criteria where like when Bush tried to block an investigation and covered up and covered up and didn't cooperate he was clearly guilty of something we all seem to think. When Trump, he's like the good guy fighting the deep state. So I'm just putting that out there for some of your for some of your viewers and listeners.

I'm not trying to keep going there. But it's fine. It's fine. It's like. It's like. And the. the. the. the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. try. try. try. try. try. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr, tr, tr, tr, tr. tr. try. try. try. try. try. try. try. try. try. try. try. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. true. truerying to keep going there. But it's fine. It's fine. And this all views are, I mean, dude, if someone came on here and defended Trump as a white night, I have a problem with that. Someone defends Obama as a white night, I have a problem with that. Again, they're all in the same theater stage. I question everything. I do believe believe believe believe believe believe believe there there there there there there there there the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thoe. thoe. thoe. thoomomomom, thoom. thoomorrow. thoomorrow. thoomoomoomorrow. tho. tho. tho. tho. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. to. to. toe. to. toe. toe. to. to. toe. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. th. to.. I question everything. I do believe there is a legit beef between

Donald Trump and the past administrations. There's something going on that is not status quo. Now, I do believe there's ir-similarities between Donald Trump's administration and Bill Clinton's administration. I mean mean their presidencies. How they got elected, you know, you're like, they both beat an incumbent or a political insider that nobody saw that was going to happen. They won, they got in, everything was about who they had sex with, they had all these fucking hearings, all these investigations, why they deregulate, deregulate, deregulate. And that's something we find that people do over time time time they. You they. You they. You they. You they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they. They. You. You. You. You. You. They they. They they. They they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they th. Like. Like. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. the the the the th. the they they they they they they they they they they they they, why they deregulate, deregulate, deregulate, deregulate. And that's something we find that people do over time is, um, is, uh, look at that, they, the playbooks, they play over and over and over again, you know, 9-11 is in, you know, is very similar to an operation that the CIA wanted to run why Kennedy was in and that

he nullified. It made it all the way to his desk and he said no. And basically what the CIA wanted to do is they wanted to make a big event in which these college kids were going to go fly to Cuba for this musical event. And they were going to make a big production, they were going to put fly to Cuba for this musical event. And they were gonna make a big production, they were gonna put the whole, all the cameras, the media was gonna cover it, and then they were gonna put in air,

and then they were secretly gonna land it and send another plane up full of explosives and blow it up. This is all documented, it's not conspiracy, it's truth. If I could, I'd like to just to just to just to just to just to just to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be to be to be. too. the too, too, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. tod. toda. toda. toda. toda. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. just jump back to sort of the inside job and the accountability topic real quick. My studio time is going to be up here in about 10 minutes, so I'm going to get in some final comments. Go, go, go. Yeah, we got to end it.

But. So one of the people we interviewed for the book is Lawrence Wilkerson and he worked under Colin Powell. And one of the things he told us was, he, his impression is that on 9-11, George Bush and Dick Cheney, or you know, or at least from his perspective, scared of shit that they were gonna get impeached and fucking thrown out of office,

that they were gonna be, you know, like, asleep at the switch while a new fucking Pearl Harbor happened and they were scared of shit. And then if you look at Bob Mueller had just taken a job as head of the FBI at that time. And it was looking like the FBI dropped the ball on these terrorist guys. So they were basically saying you might the FBI might be fucking broken up, like, you might lose your entire, your entire bureau. So he's kind of scared of shit. When we talk about like people being scared of the investigation, all of these people had some level of accountability, shit they didn't do, shit they should have done, shit they lied about, shit they just sat on and did nothing with, every, it's like the game of clue. Like everyone's got a murder weapon, and they're like. they're all they're all their they're all their their their they're all all all all all all all all all all all all, their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, they're, they're their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi. thi. thi. their, thi. their, thi. thi. th clue. Like everyone's got a murder weapon and they're like in the

conservatory or some shit and it's just like, they're all like, oh fuck, an investigation could land on any of us. So let's all circle the wagons and you know and do our best like I'll cover your ass you're going to cover my ass. We're like we're all going to be in on this shit together because these Jersey widows are going the the the the th. th. th. their th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. their all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all. they. they. th. they. they. they. they. they. they. the they. they. the the they. they. they. they. they. they. theogether because these Jersey widows are going to fucking have us hanging from a lamp post. So I will say that. There was a lot of fear in there and, you know, and rightly so, because a lot of people had, you know, especially CIA, NSA, people had done things where they had info, they sat on it, they hit it, they intentionally lied, like, after the coal bombing, you had FBI agents. Ali Sufan, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, theynged, they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. th. too. too. I I I I was. I was. I was. I was. I I was. I was. I was, I I I I was, I I I was. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. to. I. to. to. to. to. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And, I'm. And, I'm. And, I'm. And, I Sufan, Steve Bongart, the people working the investigation into the attack on the USS Coal, are basically sending multiple

requests to the CIA, to Alex Station saying, hey, part of our investigation has led us to understand that there was a meeting, a planning meeting of sorts in Malaysia with some, some of these Al-Qaeda guys who seem to have been involved in this attack. Do you know anything about this? And multiple occasions they request this information. And each time it's like, no, no, don't know what you're talking about. And you know, so there's multiple points where like, people can be like, fuck, if this investigation blows wide open, I'm going down, you're going down, like we're all going down.

And so I think there was a lot of them being very defensive in that regard and just being as mum as possible. And honestly, even some of the people we talked to who seemingly did nothing wrong, people like Mark Rossini, who was one of those FBI who had been tasked to work at the CIA, when he first got approached by congressional investigators and they asked the the to to to to to a a a a toa, the told, toe, the toe, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi.eea, somea, somea, somea, somea, somea, somea, somea, somea, somea, somea, somea, work at the CIA. When he first got approached by congressional investigators and they asked him about the passing of the information from CIA and FBI, he was basically just like, oh no, I don't remember those cables. Even he, he who was intimately involved in trying to get them passed, he knew that like the first thing, like, if you're the one who opens your mouth and starts tell the truth, everyone else is going to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th.... thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, they. they. they, thi, they, they, they, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, they, they, they, they, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they...... they. He. He. He. they. they. they. they. they. thi. they. they. thi. thi. they. they. they. thi, they. th. th. thi. thi. th. thee. thi. thi. they. the, the, everyone else is going to turn on you. Oh yeah, that was Mark's job. Yeah, we told Mark, that's it, we told Mark to pass it. No, Mark, he read the cables and he worked over there. So we told him to take him down. He fucked up. Get him! You know, so I think there was a lot of just lying and burglary and thir, they, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, th, thin, th, thin, thin, thin, th, thin, he, he, th, th- he's th- he's thin, thin, th- he's th- he's th- he's th, th, th, th, th, th, that, that, that, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the the their, their, their, their, they. thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, that, that, that, that, that's that's that's it's it's it's that's it's it's that's it's it's told, that's that, that, that, that, regard. And before I bounce, I'll throw you guys a little cheese. And I'm going to say this and leave and raise you be like,

thanks for the fucking grenade, bro. But, um, but, uh, Ray mentioned a meeting earlier. September 4th, Richard Clark, sitting in a national security meeting, George Tenet's there. The topic is terrorism. George Tenet at this point absolutely fucking knows that Kaliomidar, Noah Fahazmi are in the country. He knows about Zacharias Masawi. He's definitely probably known earlier, but you can

prove he knew then, and he mentions nothing. And if we go back to this hypothesis and conjecture, what was the CIA helped you? What what is this operation they're running to supposedly flip hijackers hijjack h hija? If th. th. th, if, if this, if th, if this th, if th, if this th, if th, if th, if th, if th, if th, if this th, if thi, if thus, if thus, if thus, if thus, if thi, if this is thus, if thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thii. thioli. thioliologe, is thi. thi. thioli. thi. O? What does this operation they're running to supposedly flip hijackers? If this is true, if this is a fact that they were doing this and they were doing this apparently for about a year and a half or a little longer, why? At what point did they plan to stop this operation? I couldn't agree more? At what point either? There's basically two options. Like either one, they're under the impression this operation is going really well. Like we think we flip these guys.

They're giving us all sorts of good information. Why would we stop now? It's going swimmingly. Or they look at and go, this really isn't working. These guys haven't flit. They're not reporting they're not, you know, reporting anything to us, whatever. Which, so with option two, you'd think, well, they would have shut that down earlier. But with option one, even if it looks like maybe it's kind of going well,

like, they should have had all the evidence, because these guys are linked to all the other guys thin the other 19, and they're all buying tickets for their their their their playing, their their their their their their, their, their, their, tickets for the same day, like there should have been an emergency break moment. And if you look at the CIA, like sort of the traffic between a particular individual Tom Wilshire who then got sent to the over to work at FBI headquarters back to his old station at Alec, there seems to be this thing where he's like, guys, getting a little hot out there. Guys, Khaled Elmira is a major to to to to work is a major major major major major major major major. It is a major major major. It is a major. It's a major. It's a major. It's a major. It's a major. It's a major. It's a major. It's a major. It's a major. to work. to work. to work. to to to to to to to the to their to to to to to to to to to to their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's their. It's their. their their their their their their the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their th. this thing where he's like, guys, getting a little hot out there. Guys, Kali Don Miro is a major lead killer, maybe we should start looking at that again, and it almost looks like he's trying to like, fucking pull the rip cord or get someone back home to pull the rip cord and they're all like, what you're talking about, bro, what are you talking about? What's wrong? And so, like, theyrowne, the the the they, they, they, there is, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, the, the, the, the, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, the, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, th. is, th. I, th. It's, th. th. th. th. th. th. tog. togs. togu. today, together, together, th. tell, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th the FBI. Let me just bow out on this. Like if you want to say there's like some,

like where is the conspiracy? Like where, like what's my big remaining question after all this? Why didn't they pull the plug? Because they had like Richard Clark thought they didn't pull the plug because they knew their asses were all on the line. And so his thinking is that once the low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low low level. the low levels. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the low low low levels. th. theel. theeel. theeeee. thee. theee. theee. the. the. the the the the the the thees were all on the line. And so his thinking is that once the low levels of FBI and INS have been made aware of the hijackers in the country, which happened on August 23rd of 2001,

that they were gonna sit back and hope and pray that they got caught before the fucking bomb off, right? But even if that's true, like on that date, August 23rd, 2001, George Tenet and all these other higher-ups have a full-proof excuse of, we learned on this day the 23rd, they're in the country. They could pass the information, go get them, boys. They got a couple of weeks to stop this thing. But they don't, but they don't do it. Now, I'm not saying it was because they wanted the attack to succeed But I'm saying that this is where to put the magnifying

Yeah if you really want to start looking at this shit We can prove that not maybe prove but we can lay out a really strong case all the way up to that point. Yeah, I agree. I agree. to zoom in on that put it under the microscope. That's where to look at that at that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. the that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. the the that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that. that. that. that. th. th. th. th. th. th. th microscope, that's where to look. At that point, 100%. Well, I know you gotta bounce, so I appreciate that. And we'll, we're gonna end it here, man. It was a great, by the way, the operation, the CIA one was Operation Northwoods. So if you guys want to check that out and just see the similarities. You guys were great, the book, the book, the's, oh yeah, when the watchdogs didn't bark, man. You guys were great. Guys, check out the book.

I know I'm going to read it. I'm really excited, just the small parts you sent me. I was fucking enthralled, man. It's good shit. And guys, keep up the good work. We need more people like you, questioning power, questioning all that stuff. And you know, you guys did something, you nailed it, man. So I hope the book sells a lot. You guys have huge success and hopefully on your next project you can come back on the show

and we talk about again. Thank you so much for having us. Guys, anytime. What you have done to talk about these things and you have, so we really appreciate you. Anytime, man, we appreciate you and it was a wonderful podcast and we, again, appreciate your hard work and we'll do it again soon. All right, guys, thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next week.

Take care everybody.