Tin Foil Hat With Sam Tripoli - #219: The Drone Revolution with Arthur Holland Michel

Episode Date: August 7, 2019

Thank you for tuning in for another fun festive episode of Tin Foil Hat with Sam Tripoli. We dedicate this episode to the loving memory of David Kimowitz who was taken away from us this weekend. He was part owner of the Stand in NYC and a super kind soul. Our thoughts and prayers go out to his family, everyone at the stand and all of our brothers and sisters in NYC comedy scene. Comedy lost a great one. This episode we welcome author Arthur Holland Michel to discuss his book "Eyes In The Sky" and what the affect of the Gorgon Stare and Drones will have on business, war and our privacy. Thank you so much for all of your support. Please check out Center For the Study Of The Drone. https://dronecenter.bard.edu and purchase his book at... https://www.hmhbooks.com/shop/books/Eyes-in-the-Sky/9780544972001 My album is available for sale on iTunes. So go buy Sam Tripoli Live At the Viper Room. Watch my two specials for free at Samtripoli.com Please check out.... Patreon: Patreon.com/TinFoilHat Tshirts: TinFoilHattshirts.com Cameo.com https://www.cameo.com/samtripoli Thank you to our sponsors: Absolute Xtracts: Please go to ABX.org and use the promo code "Chaos" for 20% off of all you CBD, Flower and Vap purchases! Blue Chew; Right now, we’ve got a special deal for our listeners: Visit BlueChew.com and get your first shipment FREE when use our special promo code HAT -- Just pay $5 shipping. Again, that’s B - L - U - E - CHEW dot com, promo code HAT to try it FREE. Manscaped: Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code TINFOILHAT at Manscaped.com. That’s 20% off with free shipping at manscaped.com, and use code TINFOILHAT AbsoluteXracts: Check out our sponsors at ABX.org! They are the Nike of weed and have everything you might need to get lit as f@ck! BETDSI: Go to BETDSI.com and use the promocode HAT100 and they will double your deposit. We have big shows coming please check them dates out: indianapolis Aug 9th: Helium St. Louis August 10th: Helium Bakersfield: Aug 17th Brooklyn BBQ Washington DC: Sept 7th DC Improv Sept 13th: Cobbs in San Fransisco

Today's episode is dedicated in a loving memory of Mr. David Kimmowitz. He was the owner of the stand in New York and he was tragicly taken from us this weekend. I've blessed to be, played the stand every time I go out there. Him, his staff, all them were so nice and for this to happen is tragic, beyond sad. Today's episode is dedicated to him. Thoughts and prayers go out to his family, to the Stan family, and to all the comedians in New York who've lost a very important piece of that amazing scene out there. Our hearts go out and it's super tragic. You know, comedy took a big hit this weekend so

we're gonna miss you mr. Kimowitz and you know make God laugh home boy okay so we appreciate you I too fuck are you guys even talking about global controls will have to be imposed and a world governing body will be created to enforce them. Welcome to tinfoil half. We go deep home boy. Eric, open your mind. Drink from the fountain of knowledge.

There's lizard people everywhere. That's some interdimensional shit. Wake up, Aaron! This is only the beginning. You just blew my mind. Are you ready to get your mind blown? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Welcome to Tim for all? Revolution will be podcasted. Yeah, welcome.

Welcome to Tim Fowle. How are you? How to you? You know who I am here to do. Joining me as always is my partner in crime, the man the mytholelegian, XG, Xavier Guerrero. What's up, boss? How are you, dude? Good, good, chilling. A lot of amazing things. One of the things I'm super proud to announce is that I will be on an upcoming episode of the CW's Mysteries Decoded.

That series starts August 13th and you can see that every Wednesday night 9 p.m. My personal episode will be August 27th. I will be investigating the Montauk project. It's an amazing, amazing show. What's Jenfer's last name? Marshall. But the amazing and talented Jenffer Marshall, so go to CW. Yes, they put this face on the CW. I look good though. I've seen some of the shots. I look, I am the, I'm one of the sexiest guys in the conspiracy world, dog, according to show. So check it out, it out, it out, it out, it out, it out, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's the the th the the th th th th th th th thi, it's thi, it's thi, it's thi, it's thi, it's thi, it's th. It's, it's, it's is is is th. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's is is is is is is the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi, it's thi. It's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th sexiest guys in the conspiracy world, dog, according to show. So check it out, it's a wonderfully well done. I know a lot of people when you think, you know,

television and conspiracies, are they gonna give it a fair shake? They 100% do. I really was happy with the final project. It looks good. So please, again, that series starts August 13th on the CW Mysteries Decoded, and my episode is August 27, so we'll have a viewing party and we'll all watch it together and hopefully we'll get huge, huge ratings and everybody will be happy. A lot of big shows coming up here.

We have this Thursday night, I am at, I'm at Harvel's in Long Beach. We are doing the Sam and his filthy friend show. That's an 8 o'clock show, please show up. The lineup is stacked. Then this Friday night and Saturday, it is Tim Foilhack Comedy Night. Myselfo will be in St. Louis and Indianapolis, okay? Go grab those tickets.

You go to Sam Tripli. One of the 420 show. The Saturday show, which is St. Louis. St. Louis, is the 420 show. I'm excited about it. I love St. Louis. It's wonderful time. And then following that, we are a lot. Yes, I'm killing the today.

I'm going to be in to be in Bakkaker be out there and our friend Tiger will also be joining us. Those tickets are available again at Sam Tripli.com. And then what would be the next one is, uh, the Cobbs. Oh, Cobbs. We're back. their ti. took.

Thau. the the tickets because these shows are selling out. Trust us on that one. Do you have a good time in Sacramento? We crushed that show. Oh, don't forget you got one more. Comedy Chaos. Oh, Comedy Chaos is.

Thank you so much. Absolute Extract presents Comedy Chaos live. The lineup is killer. Joey Dia is Brandon Shaw, Brian. to, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, do, th, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do th, do, do thi, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. th, do. th, do. th, do. th. th. th. We. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to thi. thi. to to thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. Do. Do, do thi.the comedy store, the lineup is killer. Joey Diaz, Brandon Shaw, Brian Callan, Andrew Santino, my friend from New York who's one of the funniest guys are, Samarel, all they're live. That is the 8pm show and I'm putting together the 1030 show. The first show will sell out, grab your tickets to both shows, they will be great.

Patreon is dot com backslash. Tinfoil hat. I'm putting almost three hours of content on there. All right. T-shirts are in Fuego. Okay. We got these t-shirts right here. That t-shirt right there. Go to Tinfoil Hat t-shirts. Dot com. We also have I'm on cameo. Have you heard heard a cameo no go to cameo you look up Sam Tripoli I do personal shout-outs there you want me say some weird shit to your boss you want to say some to your girlfriend you want me just yell out weird stuff go to cameo dot com backslash Sam Triply oh what else oh and make sure if you're watching this on YouTube please please please hit the subscribe button,

be our friend, right? Hit the subscribe button. And my specials, you can watch them for free, man. What kind of world do we live in where I'm giving out free content like this? Just go to Sam Tripoli.com. And you can see both of my shows, both of them, live from the Vipe room. Zero Foxx Armogadden both live from the Viperoom and for your free. Go to Sam Tripoli.com. Where we at? What number? Not bad. Today's show is going to be excellent. I'm super excited to have this guy on. He's got a book. It's called Eyes in the Sky.

The Secret Rise of the Gordon, Gorgon Stair and how it will watch all of us. Please welcome to the Gordon Gorgon stair and how it will watch all of us. Please welcome to the show. Arthur, Holland, Michelle. How are you, Arthur? Hi guys, good to be here. Look at you, just sitting back. Looking stunning. It's midnight where I am right now.

Where are you? Yeah, I'm in Spain actually. You do look like you're in Spain. I was going to say that. I was th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. the th. th. the tho. the th. the tho. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to. to. to. to. the the to. the the th. the the the th. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. G. th. G. G. th. G. G. to. G. G. th. G. G. G. G. G. G. I. I. I Spain actually. You do look like you're in Spain. I was going to say that. It looks like some weird European stuff going on there, but I like it. I like it. What do you do in Spain? So I'm a visiting scholar at a graduate institute here. Ooh, look at you.

Does that work with the Spanish chicks? Oh, well, I'm actually here with my wife. so not quite. Of course you are. That was a test. She asked me to ask that. The beep is very nice though. You totally passed. I love this. I love the whole thing.

What do you doing out there? Are you just, are you giving lectures? Are you doing any kind of TED Talks? Or what's going to to be in Copenhagen in a few weeks so I'm going to Berlin in a couple of days. I have an invitation to go to Malaysia but I'll have to see if that'll work out. Giving lots of talks I'm teaching a class I do research I'm a journalist I've got stories coming out it's definitely a busy time. Unbelievable unbelievable.. You also started

something called the Center for the Study of the Drones or of Drones. Tell us a little bit about. We only study one drone. We don't study all the drone. Just one drone. That's that drone have a name? Like Bob? Do you just study Bob the drone? Is there? Derek the drone. Yeah, it's Derek the drone. The little engine next year. Tell us a little about your center. Yeah, so what's an interesting story? I was actually an undergrad at college back in 2012. And I was doing my academic work about history, about actually something very esoteric, the

immigration from Peru to northern New Jersey in the 1960s. Go figure. But privately, I was very interested in drones. I thought drones were mysterious and complex and they raised all sorts of scary questions that we hadn't really dealt with as a society. And so I said, we should study this stuff. And in fact I was actually sitting in a bar in Queens. It was about 3 o'clock in the afternoon and I was with my friend, Hresh.

And suddenly I just had this idea, we need to create a center for the study of the drone at my college. We have to do this. We have to get on top of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue the issue th th th th th. thi. I the thi. I thi. I the. I th. I th. I th. I th. I s. I s. I should. I s. I s. I s. I s. I s. I s. I the. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. to. I. It. It. It. It. It's. It's to. It's to. to. to. to. t. toda. toda. te. toda. te. today. te. today. today. today. today my college. We have to do this. We have to explore this issue. We have to get on top of the issue and see what's going on and help people figure it out. And I returned to college. That was in my summer going into my senior year. And I returned to campus and I got a meeting with the president of the college somehow. And I told him about this insane idea and he said sure you know if you can make it work go for it and the rest is

kind of history I mean now we have this research institute we've been running for six years and it you know there's no end in sight I mean the issue only gets more and more complex we have more and more work every year. What is the drone revolution? Well basically there are kind of there are two parallel drone revolutions in in the military world the drone revolution really started in the mid-1990s with the drone called the Predator. There have been drones for like a hundred years. Hold on, there have been drones for a hundred years? Yeah, I mean, if you think that the drone is a...

Yeah, a remote control aircraft that has some level of autonomy, right? You get a remote control aircraft, you put some gyroscopes in it, you point it in a general direction. I mean, that's a kind of rudimentary primitive drone. But obviously you're not going to be able to do very much much thiiuuuuuuuu-a to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the their their hundred a hundred a hundred a hundred a hundred a hundred a hundred hundred hundred hundred years a hundred their hundred a hundred years a hundred years a hundred years a hundred years a hundred years a hundred thi thi thi thi thi thi, a thi, a thir thir thir thi-a-a-a-a-a-a thi-a thi-a thi-a thi-a thi, a thi, a thi, a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to do to do very to do very to do very to do very to do very thir thir thir thir thir thir thireanananananananananananananan-year-s, a hundred years a hundred years a hundred years a hundred years thir-a, a thir th, that's a kind of rudimentary primitive drone. But obviously you're not going to be able to do very much with that. Well, in the mid-90s, the Department of Defense starts using a drone called the Predator. And it has a really long endurance time, and it's pretty reliable, and it has a video camera on it so you can watch your enemies for really extended periods of time. And thenthen in 2000, they actually managed to strap missiles onto this aircraft.

And now you have a drone that can not only watch your enemies, but they can also kill them. And suddenly people realize that this is a really powerful technology. And that sort of sparks off this revolution on the military side. And then there's the civilian revolution and that comes a little bit later. Basically for again, you know decades and decades there have been drones, remote control aircraft, but in order to fly one of these things you need to be like a really dedicated dude in your parents' basement, you know, sodering and putting all the plywood bits together and there you go in your

anorac and you go to some park with your friends and you fly these vehicles that are really difficult to operate really finnigatty and you need a lot of time right right there's just naturally only going to be so many people who have the dedication to do that so then then... Sorry and then and then you have some advances that make these aircraft much easier to fly and suddenly you have these drones called multi-copter drones which are basically these helicopters with a few rotors most people have... Those are the ones I see at the dark park freaking out the dogs. The dogs don't know a drone. dog doesn't like balloons it can't even comprehend a drone

absolutely absolutely and it's the guy or gal flying that drone probably isn't someone who had to spend ages in their basement you know it's probably someone who just went on at Amazon thought it would be cool to buy a drone and these things are so sophisticated now that really anyone can fly one and th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th that that that that that that that that that that the that the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th th th th th th th th th th th th th that that that that that that the the the the the the theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee their the it would be cool to buy a drone. And these things are so sophisticated now that really anyone can fly one. And that was the change. That was the revolution. Suddenly you have this accessible technology. And everybody wants to use it.

In fact, I was a few years ago in upstate New York, hanging out at a waterfall, sort of lounging on the rocks, and I saw a drone hovering overhead. I had no idea who was flying it. And I can assure you that the guy, probably a guy, flying that drone, you know, wasn't someone who was really dedicated to this like hobby and had built it himself. I mean, this was just a drone that had bought for 1,500 bucks on Amazon. But he's the one who ended up losing because he's got the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi. I had thi. I had th. I had th. I had th. I had thi. I had thi. I had thi. I had thi. I had thi. I had thi. I had thi. I had thi. I had thi. I thi. I thi. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I was th. I was th. I was the the the the. I was just just the. I'm the. I'm the. I'm thei. I'm thei. I'm thei. I'm thei. I'm thei. I'm thei. I was th, but he's the one who ended up losing because he's got the retinal scarring image of my pasty white body lounging on the rocks. So yeah, that's the drone revolution for you. Have you used one yet?

Have I used a drone? Like those ones? I mean, like, I've shot television multiple times with drones. I mean, but I don't fly a drone myself? the drone? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? the drone? the drone? thri? th? th? th? th? th? th? th? th? th? th? th? th? th? th? th? th? th. the th. thi? the the thi? thi? the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th? th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thririar? thriar? thriar? thriar? thrown? thrown thrown throwne? thrown thrown thrown thrown thrown thrown thrown thrown thrown, thrown, thrown, the? thlevision multiple times with drones. I mean, but I don't fly a drone myself. Why have you? It's pretty easy. Yeah, like the ones you give like kids? The little ones?

Yeah, they're like, they're getting pretty cheap now. Well, the whole thing is to get children hooked on stuff. So when they grow up and they advance, like the thanks, they. their, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the their. their. their. their. their. their. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their. the. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. the. th. th. th. th. th. th. thr. th not that way of a stuff. It's like, it's why Starbucks sells kid Frappuccinos, you know, it's like you get the kids going early to Starbucks. By the time they get, I'm like, nothing's worse than going to Starbucks and being a line behind like five, 12 year olds trying to get it. So I'm like, dude, I need caffeine to feel 12. Get out of my way, way kid, you know, should man be afraid of drones? Is, you know, it just seems like there's a lot of dark applications that drones will be used for. Should man be afraid of the drone revolution? Yeah, I mean, if the drone revolution isn't controlled, if we allow this technology to just proliferate unfettered with absolutely no regulations and no defenses, then yeah, I mean some really bad stuff can happen with

this technology. Imagine someone decides to strap some C4 to that drone and fly it into a crowded stadium. Not only is that going to kill some people, but it's also going to spark a mass panic, right? I mean, and that's not a high technological threshold, right? We're not talking about chemical or biological weapons. I mean, if you put some kind of explosive on a drone, you now have a rudimentary but effective cruise missile in a sense and yeah i mean we need to we need to deal with that no one's gonna tell you that we we shouldn't deal with that there are a lot of positive applications

and in fact even the people who are pushing the positive applications are worried about the negative stuff because that first time that a drone I don't know collides with an airplane or is used in a domestic terrorist attack, then, you know, the authority is really going to clamp down on the technology as a whole. So a lot of people are kind of on edge about what's happening at the moment with all this stuff.

Well, the cartel has been using them to cross drugs over through the border. Oh really? Yeah. They've caught, like immigration immigration has shot them down and they like you're just like I said you buy a drone, stick the drugs to it from Mexico, cross it over, who you're gonna, who's gonna get arrested? I mean prisons as well. Drones are really popular for smuggling contraband into prisons. I mean it happens on a daily basis. Is that a big issue? Drones and drugs go into prisons? Oh, they found drones with tens of thousands of thousands tho tho thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs on drugs on drugs on drugs on drugs on drugs on drugs on drugs on drugs on drugs on drugs on d.. to drugs on d to drugs on d to drugs on d to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs to drugs tho tho tho thousands. thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands thousands to thousands to to to thooo to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to they've found drones with tens of thousands of dollars of contraband. Tobacco, cell phones, weapons, drugs. And again, I mean, you know, you buy a drone for a couple hundred dollars, you park your car, you know, a mile from the prison. If it fails, no one's going to catch you. And if you, and if it works, then, I mean, you've, you've just, you know, it's like walking into the prison and delivering the drugs by hand.

It seems like drones represent this move by man to become less and less connected to their fellow human being. Like, what we've seen now is again where we have these, these tech nerds, no disrespect to anybody, but these tech nerds who keep saying that robots and self-driving cars, and we're seeing where like Amazon, which already doesn't pay anything to its workers, wants to now use drones to deliver packages. Like, is this just another move to disconnect man from his fellow man? It's an interesting question.

You know, I always think of the drone as actually just another attempt of man to project himself into places that he can't traditionally get to. Right. The sky was always this pretty inaccessible place. You needed to have a lot of money. You need to have a lot of time. You needed a big airplane. And now you can sort of capture that space with not a lot of effort or energy or money. You know, I'd have to think about the question of sort of connectedness.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who would say that the technology is bringing people together by, yeah, doing deliveries. It was just a story about how there is this very remote tribe in the Grand Canyon that American elections has trouble delivering its vote tallies to a central counting office. And so now the idea is that they will deliver those documents by drone. I mean, that seems to be a pretty positive application, but then when you think about Amazon and some of its ideas, that begins to raise some definite questions that a lot of people are going to really have to wrap their minds around before

You know that actually starts happening Military Wiltary, wide scale military applications are what scares me because the movement to drone wars What it does is it takes away the boots on the ground, which is an emotional investment now., I'm anti-war, I don't like war. I think getting rid of the draft has allowed us to disconnect from the emotional toll that war takes. And this war, this emotional toll, both on us and those we are fighting, is what makes us want to stop the war. Being on the ground, being wherever we are, the other country and we see that are, it's, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, the the the, the, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I the, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tha, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, the that, that, the the that stop the war. Being on the ground, being in wherever we are, the other country, and we see that are,

it's like when animals, when an animal is defeated, it will take a posture that the other animal knows, I am no longer fighting back, this fight is done, and in some things it stops. You know, that's kind of what happens in war, when we invade a place and we see, okay, these people have surrendered, we can stop with the war. But I feel that is going to go away as we now use drones to do most of our attacking. Do you see that is an issue?

It's interesting. So there is this perception that drones make killing easier and there is certainly a grain of truth to that. But I've also spoken to a lot of drone pilots who've had real experience. I mean people who've killed, you know, killed people on the battlefield, numerous people. And the experience that I get from them is that that is actually the opposite of what their experience looks like.

They approach their job with a level of seriousness and a level of gravity. In fact, some of them will argue that they have no choice but to take the act of killing more seriously because unlike a, say a sniper who's really far away from his enemy and can only sort of engage with their enemy through the through the scope, right? A little dot. Right. A drone pilot sees their enemy sometimes for days and weeks on end before they kill them in HD detail and then they put a missile on that person and then not only did they do that but then they have to orbit over the area and once the smoke has cleared they have to do it's called a battle damage assessment and they have to

look at all the scattered limbs and see the people who maybe didn't die but got severely injured and they're not allowed to look away and I can imagine that that probably wouldn't give you a blaze attitude towards killing. Now, they have been stories about drone pilots who have attended their job in that kind of casual way. But we also hear stories about soldiers on the battlefield who are in the fight that, you know, a pretty flippant about killing too. But it raises an important question and a lot of people, even within military circles, are talking about that question.

I think it's a valid question to be asking. Well, as we know, and I think that might be changing now with Donald Trump, but, you know, Obama was called the drone president. That he was drone striking the shit out of everybody and the rumor was that these drone strikes were missing their targets at like a 90% clip. Any thoughts on that? Like, that this is kind of a new war that we might be going into? I mean, there is a lot of disagreement as to how accurate those drone strikes were, and whether you can even sort of draw some of those conclusions because of all the mystery

that these drone strikes were shrouded, and I mean, the CIA has hardly even acknowledged that it can conducts a lot of these drone strikes. But the real question for me is, regardless of whether these strikes are accurate or not, is it a good policy? Is it going to bring the war on terror to a timely end, or is it just going to perpetuate this conflict? Because there have been accounts from these areas, Yemen, Pakistan, Somalia, where people who weren't radicalized, weren't part of a terrorist group, saw someone

they knew be killed in a drone strike, and that turned them against the U.S. Is that going to bring an end to the war? Perhaps not. You know, it raises a question about whether you are getting short-term gains at the cost of long-term losses. And again, you know, it's kind of hard to know because we, these areas are so hard to access. It's hard to sometimes get into the psychology of what effect they have. The issues so complicated, maybe a drone strike is a sort of overly simple solution to a complex issue. It's really hard to tell. I mean, in policy circles, we've been debating that question for a really long time. In the government, I'm sure people have been debating that policy question for a really long time. Look, here government, I'm sure people have been debating that policy question

for a really long time. Look, here's an interesting policy question that people in the administration have talked about. Is it better or more valuable to kill a suspected terrorist or to capture them? Under the Bush administration, the preference was often to capture. And why did you capture someone? Well, because you could interrogate them. And that could potentially yield useful information about the terrorist group. Well, what's the problem with that? Interrogation, in this case, off their men torture.

Yeah, and none of the information actually went. And a lot of the people that they grabbed and brought down to Guantanamo Bay, a large chunk of them had nothing to do with it. They were just swept up in these raids and they were thrown in there and then we radicalized them and then people get so weirded out when they're like, this guy was in Guantanamo and then we let him free and now he's like a jihadist. Yeah! Yeah. Oh shit. What do you want this guy? I mean like this guy was like doing nothing. You swept him up. You made him do naked pyramids at Guantanamo and then you wonder why he's pissed man. It's it's weird disconnect. And listen, your job, you're not an advocate for drones.

That's, you're not the, you know, the PR purse for drones. I want people to understand that. That's not what you're here for. These are just questions I have that I would like to ask. I want people who really knows that you're, you're not like making cash off drones. You actually are here to kind of raise awareness of drones and their applications in what we're doing and that's why I want to bring up to

your book. Eyes in the skies, the secret rise of Gorgon Stair and how it watches all of us. Tell us a little bit about your book. Sure. So when I was doing research at the center at Bard, you know, I mean, we're talking about drones. We're talking about flying robots. I spend a lot of time looking at all sorts of pretty scary technologies. You know, missiles and swarms and all sorts of nightmarish things, but in a way there was one technology that I kept returning to. There was one technology that I found myself thinking about before I went to sleep at night, and it was this this series of really powerful aerial cameras that in some cases could watch a whole city at once. And very little was known about these cameras. We knew that they operated aboard some drones

and some other aircraft and that the US military used them in Afghanistan and Iraq. But I felt like there was a story there. And so I decided to look into it a little deeper, and that turned into this book, which is aboutthe sort of god-like aerial surveillance systems. They're fascinating history and also where they're headed to next because I'm afraid to break it to you but this technology is coming home. You know it doesn't stay in the military sphere indefinitely and we're seeing the proliferation of this technology domestically,

we're seeing it trickled down in all sorts of different ways and so so yeah, that was four years of my life. I have the book here and it came out about a month and a half ago. Well, congratulations on that. I mean, we look at going back to the drones and we'll get back to Gorgorgon. I mean mean when we had the Native Americans in North Dakota there was all this rumors that they were using weaponized drones against them. We've seen where we've, there's now like they were bragging about putting flamethrowers on drones. I don't know. Does anyone else sleep? Okay knowing that drone? Flangthrowers out there? I mean, that's like, that's just, that's, what happens when that comes back to the United States? Like, that's real application shit.

Yeah, there's actually, you raised two interesting points. In North Dakota, there were some of those rumors, but also some of the protesters were using the drones to gather video of the tactics of the riot police, sometimes tactics that were, you know, considered overly, sort of heavily handed. And so it became this really powerful tool for citizen journalism and surveillance, that is watching the watchers. On the flame throw a thing, there's a funny story there. It's been in the news again recently because this company just said that they have a flame

thrower for drones. But you know who was the pioneer of the flame throw a drone? Who? It was an 18-year-old kid in Connecticut who first came... Can we add virgin to? I don't know. I mean, you know, I'm, yeah, perhaps you never know. You can make your no assumptions. But he first came to national attention by attaching a handgun to a drone.

And everyone's freaked out. Why is this kid? Who is he? Man? I gotta, like, someone got to talk to this kid. He's going down a dark path. He's th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, tho, thin, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th. Well, th. Well, th. Well, th. Well, th. Well, th. Well, th. Well, th. th. th. th. th. I th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, to to, to to to to to to to too. too. too. too. too. too. too. to to thi. to, thi. thi. th talk to this kid. He's going down a dark path. He's putting handguns on drones. And then, so he put a handgun on a drone, it made worldwide headlines. I'm pretty sure I got a visit from the FBI.

And then a couple of months later he put a flame thrower on a drone. And was like, what up? I'm not going to stop. And, you know, again, giving a the the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to a to a to to a to a then, then, the an the an theat a theat, theat, thean, their tho, thrown, and a thrown, and a th-a, and a th-a, and a throw, and a throw, and a throw, and a throw, and a their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thrownean, thrown, thrownean, and a throwne an thrown, and thrown, and thrown, and thrown, and thrown, and a thrown, and a th of people nightmares, people in really high places with thinking about that and staying awake at night, thinking about how to protect the country, and it was a 19 year old kid who was doing it. I see Lex Luther in his future. It's very interesting. So let's get back to your book in the center of that book, which is the Gorgon Stair. Am I'm a butcher of words. Gorgon stare am I pronouncing that I'm a butcher of words. Yeah, Gorgan stare tell us a little about what is the Gorgon stair

So the Gorgon stare is a gigantic camera To put it in perspective the size of a camera is measured in megapixles, okay? Your iPhone, it has about a 12 megapixelles okay uh... your i phone it has about a twelve megapixel camera right the gorgens stair has one point eight billion pixels oh my god yeah so it's it's absolutely gigantic

and they put this thing yeah there you go and they they put this thing on a drone there you go. And they put this thing on a drone and it can watch a truly vast area. Now why would you want to watch a truly vast area? Because maybe you don't know what you're looking for from the outset, right? Traditional drones, they have like, their cameras like telescopes. They're good for looking at a particular patch of ground, but that only works if you know where where where thii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thin, and thin, and they they put they put they put they put thin, they put they put they put thin, they put thin, they put that, thr-a, thr-a, thi, and th ground, but that only works if you know where to look in the first place. Maybe you have a city and you know the bad stuff is going to happen, but you don't know where it's going to happen. So you just watch everything at once. It's like putting a big old CCTV camera like you have in your corner store over a city. And the second something bad happens, you rewind to that spot in time and you zoom into the footage and the footage is

so huge that you can zoom into it while the camera records the whole area right it's like zooming in on your phone where you know you move your fingers apart and then you see what happened and not only that the camera's been watching for this time so whoever was involved in that incident say it was a terrorist attack now you can rewind to the footage and see where they came from and then you can move forward in the footage and see where they went not only that once they go I don't know you rewind and you see that they went back to a house

well now you have a house that is associated with this suspicious activity you're probably going to be interested in whoever else visited that house. Okay, you just watch the footage and see whatever other vehicles come to that location. You follow them back to wherever they go to and now you have a picture of the network that you're up against. And it is a technology that has been used very extensively, but very secretively by the Air Force in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria. And it continues to fly to this day.

There's a fleet of drones that have this technology. It's probably being used in the fight against ISIS, or what's left of ISIS. And that's just one of these cameras. That's just one type of one of these wide area cameras. There are a bunch of other aircraft that carry them. And they're only going to get more popular. A lot of other militaries are interested in them, for example. So this is kind of a peek into the future.

Well, I want to get back to the practical applications. I, you know, when I hear that we're like, we're using this on an Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and we see these, you know, the history that we have with why we went into these countries, the history that we have with funding these other, these bad guys that, you know, these bad guys are out here they hate our freedom......... th. th. th. th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. this this this this this this this this this this, th. this th. this this, this this, this, this, th. this, th. th. this, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. this, th. th. th. th. this, this, th. th. th. this, th. this, th. this, th. this, this, th. th. this, this, th. this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this is, this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. this, th. with funding these other, these bad guys that, you know, these bad guys are out here, they hate our freedom, and then we find out over and over again that we're the ones that not only funded them, we trained them, we warmed them, and then we pointed them in where we wanted to go, that really, really, like, again, this is not you, this is the US government. And my problem with this is this is this is this is this is this is this this this is this is this is this is this is this, this, this, with this, not you, this is the U.S. government. And my problem with this application of that this is going to be used to fight terrorism, when we all know it's state sponsored, it's state sponsored, like this is just more for me, big brother, big business trying to control investments.

And then it comes back to like, when does this come back to us? When does this technology come back and when is it going to be used against us? And because everybody loves all this stuff when it's used on the bad guys, okay? But when, do you see this? Has it happened? Like, I don't know if I read it

right but somewhere in Baltimore it's being used like now we're going back into okay now we're using our US citizens and what is the applications of that yeah you know it I spoke to a lot of the guys who'd created this technology and it's a fascinating story that they have I actually one of the guys who created this technology and it's a fascinating story that they have. I actually, one of the guys, I mean a lot of these guys and invariably they're men, they're very few women involved in this space. I only interviewed a handful of women.

Incredible women, I should note, but it's kind of male dominated. So I say guys, I reached one guy had been critical in the development of this technology technology technology, technology, theology, theology, theology, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, and the, and the, and I, and I, and I, and I'm, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I...... And, I, I, I, I, I. And, I'm, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm thi. And, thi. And, tha, tha, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, th th th th th th th th th th th had been critical in the development of this technology. It was very hard to get a hold of him. These guys are pretty secretive. And when I finally reached him, he said, you know, Arthur, I've been waiting for this call for 15 years. And I said, why? And he said, because we have to answer for what we've done. And so basically, this is what happened. You had a bunch of of of th of th of th of th of th of th of thu thu thu thuu thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. that, thathea. tho. tho. thi. thi. thathea. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the their their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I. I. I. I. to. to. I. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th a bunch of government engineers and they got given this problem essentially. That the government wants to use this technology to stop IED attacks. That is improvised, explosive devices, these suicide bombings that were having a heavy toll on US forces. And they were gung-ho about that. And they put their heart and soul into this application, but they very soon realized that the cat, once it's out of the the their their th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's tho, tho, thoom, thoom, that, that, that, tho, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. It, thoom, thoom, thi, thi, thi, thi, that, that, that, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, their, their their that, their their heart and soul into this application, but they very soon realized that the cat,

once it's out of the bag, never goes back. And now they're contending with this reality that the technology is gonna take on a life of its own. And that is exactly what has happened. And sometimes intentionally on the part of these groups. So you're right in Baltimore, in Baltimore, in Baltimore, in Baltimore, in Baltimore, in Baltimore, in b right, in the the the thiiiiii, in the thi, in thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thus, thus, thus, that, that, thi, thi, that, th groups. So you're right, in Baltimore, the city of Baltimore, really actually the police department, it ran a surveillance program with one of these cameras, built in a design that was basically, you know, very closely taken from a military design that had been used in Iraq. And they watched the city for a hundred days

in 2016, 32 square miles they saw thousands of crimes committed. I actually went to Baltimore while this operation was happening and it was totally secret at the time. In fact the Baltimore Police Department had not told the mayor, they had not told the state legislature, the city council, the public defender. I mean, it's kind of like a bit of a roguish operation. And there it was. I went into the operation center and saw how you could watch the entire city. And saw how, you know, I sat in on a briefing for these Baltimore detectives about a murder. Because a guy had been murdered in broad daylight and the camera had been used to track the murderers back in time to where they had come from and forward,

showing everywhere they had gone to. And one of the detectives said it was the best briefing he had seen in 25 years on the force. He said that nothing like this existed before at the disposal of someone trying to solve these murders and totally unprecedented. And then the program was finally revealed and there was a lot of public pushback, particularly because it had been kept secret and it was closed down, but that company continues to push for the use of this technology. Now they want it to be used in St. Louis, and not only that, they want to give it for

free to St. Louis, because they're so committed to showing that this technology can actually help solve lives. The guy who runs his company, Ross McNart, former Air Force Colonel, he is determined to to to to to to to to to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to former Air Force Colonel he is determined to have one of these over every city in the US and he thinks and perhaps part of what he says is true that this will really reduce crime perhaps by up to 30% and they'll be violent crime that will be eliminated in all of these cities because this eye in the sky is watching over us we also have to ask what's the cost of that rate right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right th. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. the. the. the. the the. the the the. the the. the. to the. to to the to to the the these cities because this eye in the sky is watching over us. We also have to ask what's the cost of that rate? Or where is the limitations of this crime fighting going? I mean I mean again I'm speaking for myself not for you at all I will these are my words of my

my belief is you know it's like these vices that are illegal whether it's drugs prostitution and stuff like these vices that are illegal, whether it's drugs, prostitution, and stuff like that, that I believe are just tools to incarcerate the poor and to fill our jails up. Or like, let's say when we drive, you remember when we were driving back from Sacramento? We didn't see one cop and we're going 85 miles an hour. Am I going to gun to get a ticket when it's like back in the day, it's like, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you're, you're, you're, you th. thi, like, you th. th. thi, like, you, you, you, remember, you, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, you, remember, remember, remember, you, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, you, remember, remember, remember, you, remember, remember, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when going to gun to get a ticket when it's like back of the day? It's like hey dude free ride dog enjoy that. Now I gotta be like on an empty road going 65 because some fuckface robot is snitching on me right? I mean like like what are the? See that's my whole problem like ideally like I don't think anyone would ever go listen man. to solve that murder. I think we all tho. the murder man. th. th. th. th. th. th. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's like it's like it's like it's like. It's like. It's like. It's like. It's like, like, like, that's like, that's like, that's like, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's. that's. that's. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. It's, the. It's, the, the, the, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's like, it's like, it's like, the, the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the, the. the, the, the, the. the, the, the, the, listen man, solve that murder. I think we all would be like, solve the murder man.

But it's like, when it's this slippery slope that we see gets into like prostitution, which like we can have a moral discussion, but the end of the day, it's like, why is that legal and sugar dating not? And I know you're not here to talk about that, but like, is there any concerns? Yeah, that's not my field. Right, right, right. But is there any fears on that? Like, now we're gonna get down to misdemeanors and jaywalking?

Like, how, how far can this go? You're not even going to get pulled over. You're just going to get a ticket tick. I. tick. tick. ti. to get a ticket. to get a ticket. tick. to get a ticket. tick. to get a tick. tick. to get a ti. ti. ti. ti. ti. ti. ti. tha. tha. their their tha. thiars. thiars. thiors on. thiors on. thiors on. that's on. thiors on that's on thi. thi. thi. thi. their their their their their their their their their their thi. their their thi. their thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. teorsea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tears. that's thears. Here's the little picture of you. Arthur, fun fact, I am 17 and 3 in traffic court. I in fact beat a camera ticket. So just let you know what, I battled the robots before and I've in fact won. But is that something to worry about? I'd love to see how you stack up against one of these. I've reviewed a lot of the test footage from these cameras and it is remarkable how easily you can see traffic violations. I mean it is kind of incredible. You see a car pull out onto a multi-lane street and it crosses a

lane, you know how you're actually supposed to turn onto your closest lane, maybe cross the lane just for convenience. Well you can see that. Clear as day in this footage. Here's a prediction for you that I came up with in the book. In let's say 20 years, we're all going to be required to have our license plates on our roofs because that's one limitation of this technology. You can see a car doing 85 miles an hour but you can't see its license plate. Now you can cross-check that footage against some CCTV footage or a license plate but yeah it's probably just going to be easier to put our license plates on our roof, you know, the roofs of our cars, and you know, it's kind of funny, you also mention that there is

this slippery slope. This is how I put it, you know, we all want to solve crimes, we all want to solve especially violent crime i actually witnessed a murder in brooklyn always that a murder that probably could have been you know solved or not it was an actually a murder the kid very luckily survived he was very severely injured he was shot in the gut he was nineteen years old and this technology probably could have solved that crime and

who am I to say that we shouldn't have this technology to bring these people to account? But in Baltimore and other cities the technology has also been used to investigate illegal dumping. You know, that's not super high in our sort of list of crimes we're going to crack down on. Now we can probably all agree that we don't want to see illegal dumping. But this is what it gets to. That the people who use the technology should not be the ones who get to decide what it's used for. Because in the eye of a police department with one of these tech, one of these cameras,

everything probably looks like a nail and you got a big old hand in the sky. Right? And maybe you have a protest and people are exercising their legitimate First Amendment rights to assemble. Wow, you can now use this camera to track every single protester back to the home. And regardless of whether you are used the tus thus the tauu-s, thi thi thi thus, thi thi thus, thi thi thi thus, everything thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi- thi- thio- thio- thio- thia, everythings, everything thio- thiol- thi, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything thi, everything thi, everything thi, everything thi thi now use this camera to track every single protester back to the home. And regardless of whether you as a police officer are completely convinced that you are serving the just cause of security in your community because a lot of these these folks probably are. That is kind of beside the point because we have a right to assemble peacefully written into the Constitution for a reason.

And so we need to make sure that these rules are implemented to ensure that the technology doesn't impinge upon that, too much. In the absence of those rules, the technology will be abused. That much is absolutely clear. I mean let's, I don't want to be all super negative about this because there are some really good applications of it like falsely accusing somebody of murder. Like we will see that these people who have been false and it happens way more than we want to believe. I'm very anti-death penalty because of the incredible rot that racism just infects the capital punishment in this country, you know, we're going to be able to see. Like, I mean, like, I know people are going to think I'm joking here, but let's take, you know,

making of a murderer on Netflix. I mean, like like there is a lot of discussion about where he was, where his relatives were, where this Teresa lady was, God rest her soul, where she was, where they moved the car. This would 100% clean that all up. Yeah, it would have helped him. So, I'll give me. It would have helped in Katrina. Oh yeah. A lot of the people were on the roofs. They could have just put that over, knowing where everybody was at, and just picked them up real quick. But back to the murder,

right? What were you saying real quick? Oh, so you know, you can use the technology to make sure that a search warrant was acquired legitimately andthat it wasn't a police officer who was lying about the suspicious activity That was visible outside of a home in order to get a warrant to search inside of it Because you can look at the camera footage and see that actually this was a completely normal suburban home that had no abnormal vehicle activity outside of it. You can use the technology to audit police accounts of officer involved. that was no abnormal vehicle. the the the officer involve, was was that. That was that. That was that was that was that was that was th was th was th was th was th was the th was the the the the the th was the the th was the th was the th was the the the the the the the the th. th was thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi was thi was thi was thi was thus thus thus thus thusususususususus thi thi thi thi thi the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th can use the technology to audit police accounts of officer-involved shootings, for example. Well, you get one report from the police, and then maybe from the eye and the sky,

you see that that doesn't necessarily hold up, or that it does hold up, but it provides a check on those types of situations. So nobody's denying that the technology has very positive applications. And again, you know, if we have the capability to, yeah, like, you know, save people from their rooftops in a Katrina-like situation. Someone's lost in the forest, right? Perfect. You can find out where they went, and you know, at least know where they started. And if it's not too dense, you'll be able the the the the to to to the to to to to to to to to their to their their to be their their their their to be their their to be their their. to be their. to be their their to be to be their. to be to be to be to be tho. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. their. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. tea. to. tea. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to they started, and if it's not too dense, you'll

be able to see where maybe they are right now. No need for Amber Alerts. Yeah, yeah, that's another thing. There you go. Amber alerts. Yeah. The same guy who said to me that he'd been waiting for my call for 15 years also said that he would finally rest in his endeavors to bring this technology into the mainstream when he can prove that the technology has stopped an amber alert in progress.

And he says then I've done my job, you know I've done my part for society. But again it's not quite that simple because yeah you could maybe stop amber alerts but if there's no control over what the technology can and cannot be used for, then the very same day, even in that same set of footage, you could also use it to do all sorts of unspeakable things. And so that's why there needs to be a conversation about what this stuff looks like, how it works, what we can do about it.

Based on the time that you were there, did you see any, did you see any real life police enforcement going on? Did you see like, okay, they saw that, they waiting, they got that guy? Did you see any of that while you were there? Yeah, so on the second day, I was in Baltimore, the president of the company, he called me up and said, hey, Arthur, I going to be giving a briefing to three Baltimore detectives about a murder. You're not really supposed to be there, so just walk into the briefing room and sit in the back and don't say anything. Now I know as a journalist that I, no police department is going to let me in on an ongoing investigation. So I walk into this room, try not to make eye contact with the three detectives who just shoot their stairs over at me and I sit in the room

as quietly as possible. And as I mentioned a little bit earlier, they tracked all of these murder suspects. And actually those leads were used to arrest an individual on the suspicion of that murder and the detectives involved said that that guy probably would have gone free had it not been for that the technology. So yeah I saw it in progress. How clear is the picture? You ever see the stories where they're like, NASA's got a picture of Saturn and it's crispy clear and then you got a picture of this guy with a backpack. And it's like a pixelated picture from a satellite? like. Like how clear? th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th It's Crispy Claire, and then you got a picture of this guy with a backpack, Thoriz.

And it's like a pixelated picture from a satellite. Like how clear was the picture of the suspects? Like how much of their face could you make out from this? So very little. In fact, the principle of this technology is that because you want to watch as a wide and wider area of possible, you really sacrifice details. So vehicles and people, they really only appear as tiny little dots on the screen.

But that's all you need, because with this technology, all you want to do is follow them. And then once you know where they've gone and where they've come from, Then you can cross-check that. Or you can actually go to that address. So maybe you can catch up to the person in the footage. They go from a murder scene directly to a home. You send a squad car to that address and you knock on the door, right? Or if you don't have that option, you just locate a person at a particular point at a particular place, and then you just pull up the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, and the, and the, and the, and the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, tho an thoanan, thoan, and where thoan, and thoananan, and where thoananan, and thoanananananan, and where threatea, threatea, and threate, the, you just locate a person at a particular point in time and at a particular

place and then you just pull up the CCTV feed and there you've got it. You've got a, you know, you've got a close-up shot of them. But the footage itself is very, you know, if you've seen the movie Enemy of the State, it looks exactly like... That's why I wanted to get into that. This whole thing comes from this movie. Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about the history and how the movie Enemy Estate, which stars Will Smith and Hugh Jackman?

And they always had a Gene Hackman. Aaron got very upset. I can say a million things but get my movie trivia wrong and my my engineer flips out. I could say a million things but get to get that wrong. Now one of my favorite things from that movie and I always resonated with me was like it's not a conspiracy if they're really after I think that was the line or it's you're not paranoid if they're really coming after you and I oh as a someone who does a podcast called Timfoil Hot that they always resonated with me um can you tell us kind of how this movie

influenced this technology yeah it's it's amazing so when I was sitting in on that murder investigation in Baltimore at the end of the briefing, one of the detectives said, I mean he was kind of lost for words, he was flabbergasted, and then he finally said, you know it's like that movie, it looks exactly like that movie, enemy of the state, and I kind of fell off my chair because, I mean I didn't literally, because then they would have been very suspicious of it. It turns out that that's not a coincidence. Now, that movie came out in 1998, and as you know, it's all about how the government has all of this insane surveillance technology.

They use it to track Will Smith. They put trackers in his clothes, they put cameras in his house, but by far the most incredible sort of gadget that the government has, the thing that really captured people's imaginations the most was this surveillance satellite that can watch Will Smith wherever he goes over a vast area. And you know, it kind of resonates with what you're saying, you know, it's not a conspiracy if it's actually happening. Well, people talk about that satellite and like, no, the government doesn't really have anything like that. That's pure fantasy. Well, a government engineer from this nuclear lab called

the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California. He went to see that movie theater in 1998 with his wife on a date night. And whereas everybody else in the audience was no doubt horrified by what they saw on screen, he was thrilled. He thought it was the best thing he'd ever seen. He was absolutely mesmerized. He thought, wow, if only the government actually had something like this. Imagine all the cool things we could do. And he rushed home and he put in a call with his supervisor and he said, hey, I have a great idea, call me back. And that sparked off this effort to basically create

a very large digital camera that could watch a very, very large area. Now, originally their concept was not to follow Will Smith around. Originally, their idea was to watch suspected nuclear sites in places like Iraq and Syria. But no one had money for that. And so then they decided, well, maybe the technology could be used for watching insurgent groups in Iraq, these folks who are planting suicide, who are setting up suicide attacks and car bombs. And that's when the CIA got involved and saw that idea and was so hunting suicide, you know, who was setting up suicide attacks and car bombs.

And that's when the CIA got involved and saw that idea and was so mesmerized by it, that the agency threw its weight behind this pretty scrappy, experimental development project and sort of a random corner of this lab. And then it went to war, and it got rushed to war. And its first deployment was in 2006. And you know the crazy thing is, and again, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I that, I that, I, I that, I that, I that, I that, I, I that, I that, I that, I that, I that, I that, I that, I that, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I that, I that, I that, I that, I that, I that, I that, went to war and it got rushed to war and its first deployment was in 2006. And you know what the crazy thing is? And again, I mean it hasn't stopped since. So 2006 was the first deployment, there have been dozens of systems deployed since then.

The crazy thing is, if you look at the screenshots from the enemy of the state movie, and you look at the actual real screenshots from this technology, they're basically the same. You could not tell one from the other, especially to an untrained eye. I mean, really, they created exactly that capability from the movie. The only difference is it's not on a satellite, but as I point out in the book, it's only so long until we do actually see these gigantic video cameras on satellites. And what that gives us is basically, and don't freak out, but basically Google Earth, but moving. Imagine that. Oh my God.

Oh my God. Here's what's interesting to me. I remember being a kid watching the Terminator movie for the first time. And the opening scene of that movie is this robot walking on skulls, okay? And above it is this flying killing machine. And that thing always haunted my nightmares, man. Haunted by nightmares. I always remember that killing man. Haunted by nightmares. I always remember that killing machine. And then drone star come out, I go,

did these guys watch the Terminator movie? This thing, but actually, if we have a moment where AI actualizes itself, like, it's like, I am a thing, and it, those things become Terminators. Yeah, yeah. No, and I mean, they're kind of shameless they're th, I, I, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, they're, th, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're kind, they're kind, they're kind, they're kind, the. They're kind kind, throwne. They're kind kind kind, they're kind, they're kind, they're kind, they're kind, they're kind, they're kind, they're it those things become terminators. Yeah, yeah. No, and I mean there's that they're kind of shameless about making these things as scary as possible. I mean this this this system's called Gorgon Stair. You know it's not called fluffy bunny bunny rabbit ears. It's called Gorgon Stare and that's intentional and the idea is that you want to scare people as As one document I found put it, you want to give people the sense that you can read their mind, essentially. You can read their intentions. You can know what they're going to do next.

And so yeah, you have all sorts of really scary systems. There's a new drone. I encourage you to look it up. It's called Skyborg. Skyborg's a program to develop these drones. Sky what? Skyborg? Bork? So like, Skiborg. But Skyborg. These guys.

Yeah. These guys, they're just, this is what happens. Ladies, this is what happens when you don't date nerds, okay? They want revenge upon everybody. Okay. Did you ever go to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. theirge. theirg. their. their. their. their. their. I. I. I. I. I. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. th. to. to. to. to. too. too. to. too.org. to.org. to.org. to.org. to.org. to. to.org.org. to. the.'ll get the skyboard for two, in two seconds. Did you ever go to these guys going, hey dog, this is a lot like what the Matrix warned us about. Do you have any concerns about that? Did you ever have to do this?

Oh no, so in every single interview, I spoke to dozens of the guys involved in these programs. In every single interview, I had not exactly the the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to get to get to get the to get they. they. to get they. to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get they. they. to get to get to get they they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. th. they. th. th. th. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. th. I. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. t. t. t. too. toee. toe. toe. toe. toe. together, together, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to dozens of the guys involved in these programs. In every single interview I had the intention of not exactly asking that question, but you know, getting to a discussion about is this stuff dangerous? Should we be welcoming this stuff into our lives? What are it's dangers? How could it be abused? And you know what? With very few exceptions, every single one of them brought up the dangers of this technology before I had a chance to get it tha tha tha to be the to be to be the to be to be to be their to be to be their to be to be to be to be their their to be a to be a their to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be abathis technology before I had a chance to get to it. They are all intimately aware of the dangers of the technology, how it can be used for ill.

I think that's why it doesn't always sit well with them, what they've done. Now a lot of them are very apologetic about it, but others are like, hell no, we need regulations. Now they're not always willing to say what those regulations should be, but yeah, I mean, they really understand the gravity of what they've done. Now, why they give these things terrifying names. I mean, I, you know, I don't know. That's, uh, there's some deep psychology there. Now, tell us about what's it called, the the the the th. the th. the th. th. th. they they th. th. th. they. they. th. th. they. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. they're they're they're they're thi. they're thi. they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they's. they's. they's. they's. they's. they's. th. th. th. th. th. th. they. they. they. they. they. they. their. their. their. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. thea. thea. theea. thea. they're not they're not they're they're they're the. the. that's, there's some deep psychology that perhaps to get it to. Now tell us about what's it called the Skyborg? What is this nightmare that won't let me sleep for the next two weeks? Skyborg is essentially an Air Force program to develop what's called a loyal wingman drone.

Now what is a loyal wingman? It's not what you're thinking. It's a drone that flies alongside a fighter jet and basically serves as that fighter jet's accomplice. So let's say the pilot in the fighter jet is flying around an area and sees an area off in the distance and says, oh, I want to know what's going on there. So he directs the skyboard drone to go into that area and figure out what's going on there. Maybe see if there are enemy positions or radar sites. And in theory could even direct that skyborg drone to take those enemies out. And the whole idea with the skyboard drone is that it's very autonomous, so that you really have to just give it very top-line instructions, things like, you know, go surveil that area, and then it kind kind the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the theck, threatheaqqqqqqqqqq. their. their, their, their. their. their. their. their. their. their is, their is, their is, their is, their is, their is, their....ee, theire, theire, theire, theire, theire, theirecke, the the theckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckeckecktop line instructions, things like, you know, go surveil that area and then it kind of figures out the rest. It's unbelievable, I

mean like, we're fighting like, Indonesia, I mean like I've been to Afghanistan, the people, you see these, they're like, they're just so simple. I just being at a football game, no, it was a Dodger game, and the stealth bomber just flew over and it was quiet. I've never seen anything like it. I go, we're fighting villagers. Like, like, what, at what point do we got like, okay, we're gonna dominate this stuff? I mean, like, we're gonna own it. It just, it's, I don't know who we're building this to fight, other than ourselves at some point.

And I still don't get why there so long? Why have we been there for so long? We know why, but that's what I'm saying? It would be easy if we really wanted to take over. It's just unbelievable what we just keep building. I mean... She looks crazy. I mean, the idea with the Skyborg drone is that it's not about fighting villages in rural Afghanistan.

It's about fighting Russia or China. A lot of the technology we're seeing now is preparing for the next war and there's something pretty worrying about that. Now, is there any chance these guys are putting in a like a turn-off switch somewhere? We're like, oh man, I self-actualize. Okay, you're done, shut it down. You know, like, that's the whole thing. Like, is there a moment something that, if this technology turns against us we as human beings can stop it? You know I'm depending on who you ask there's very varying levels of sort of pessimism and optimism on that point. I personally am kind of optimistic on that point and I'll tell you why. If you talk to any senior military commander, they will tell you that it is so important to have strict control over your soldiers. You don't

want your soldiers just running around, doing whatever they please. And the same principle is going to apply with autonomous weapons. No commander is going to want to use a technology that he or she can't keep very tight control over. So my sense is that at least in the short term, there's actually not going to be any interest in creating something that could self-actualize or would be capable of really complex, you know, long endurance operations on its own because then you lose that that level of control and nobody is willing to do that. It gets a little messy when you look into the crystal ball and you think about what things might look like and say, I don't

know, 2100. And I mean I, you know, who knows? Fortunately, we'll all be the about what things might look like and say, I know, 2100. And I mean, you know, who knows, fortunately will all be long gone by this. Thank God. Thank God. I mean, these people want to live forever. No, thank you, dude. It's just going to get weirder and weirder. So my question to you, honest question is what do you think takes down mankind first? AI drones or these new sex robots that just like are just looking like more and more real

to the point where it's just like why am I putting up a human being chicks when I could just be begging Lucy over here? Like what do you think? I'd have to say the sex robots. And I'm worried about the sex robots. It's just going to do all sorts of messed up things to collective psychology. I mean, the union between two human bodies is so fundamental to culture. It's given rise to all sorts of things. Poetry and art and wars have been fought over it and people are trying to get rich because of that, you know, trying to get exactly that. And now you're just going to have a robot that can do that and there's just sort of easy

access to it and there's no effort involved and you can essentially rape these things. I mean that is, I'm sorry, that's a no-go area. That's a big, no-no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no- no-no. thi. thi. thi. No-no. thi. No-no. thi. thi. thi. thin. thin. thin. that's that's thin. that's the. the. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's th. thi. thi. thi. thin. the. the. the. the. the the the the the the the the the the the the the and she made this company made her sex robot. Everybody's buying this sex robot now. Yeah, sales went up for fucking sex dolls. Yeah. Unbelievable. Now my question, final question is, what do you think the Amish got to be thinking right now? Like the Amish are like we don't take, but Jabada don't take no pictures or nothing. We just grow the crops and we just love the ladies. And now I got flying drones coming in, they're like why do we even bother not being a part of this? Like what are the real world applications for Amish people? You know, I think more and more people when they see this stuff

thu probably thinking, perhaps perhaps at my worst moments, myself included, maybe we need to actually go back to be a little more like the Amish. Maybe they've actually sort of cracked the code on things. There's a funny story about the Amish. A few years ago, the Pentagon installed this giant surveillance blimp in Maryland. The idea was that it could, it was a test system to detect incoming cruise missiles to the eastern seaboard, right? It's terrifying. If you took the Amtrak down to DC from New York, you could always see it. And then one day, this machine breaks loose.

It has this long metal cord attaching it to the ground, and it breaks loose. And where does it go? It makes a bee line for the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the te te te te te te te test test te test. test system teiline. tease tease tease te. It was is is is test. It was is is is test. It was is is is is is is te. It was is is is is is is is is te. It was test. It was te. test. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. tea. tea. tea. cord attaching it to the ground and it breaks loose. And where does it go? It makes a beeline for Amish country. It goes to deep Pennsylvania. Yes, and it's dragging its tether along and making troughs in all of these old Amish fields and terrifying everybody in its path. Then finally they were able to stop it, but not before it had carved out a whole chunk of the countryside. I I mean you look at something like that and then you look at your horse and buggy I can only imagine that you might think that you have a better way of living. I have a question from is there any other country that has a system like

this like a Gorgon like Russia or China that are thinking about doing it because we know that Israel has a system system th th th th th th th th th th th th th. the system the system th. th. th. th. they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they they they they're they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi thi thi. thi thi thi thi. thi thi. thi thi. they're they're they're they're they're that are thinking about doing it? Because... We know that Israel has a system very similar to Gorgonstair. In fact, it may even be capable of watching an even wider area. If you think about how small the Gaza Strip is, that's a pretty worrying notion. With one aircraft, you can watch a huge area. We know that a lot of researchers in China are investing a lot of energy and resources into investigating the technology. Interestingly, the Chinese researchers seem to be primarily interested in automating the surveillance technology, which is something that we haven't talked about.

So how do we get this data, this big old video, and actually use algorithms to spare humans the tedious task of watching everything that happens? What if you had an algorithm that detects when someone's doing something suspicious before they've actually committed a crime. Yes. Then you're getting into sort of minority report territory. The Air Force and the Pentagon at large have invested significantly in that kind of capability too. China seems to be catching up, and they probably are doing it because they have some sense that they're going to have these cameras themselves.

Russia, we're not so sure. We don't have any clear evidence, but I feel like it's th th th th th it it it's th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, that it's that it's th, that it's that it's that it's thi, that it's thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi thi thi thi thi thiiiiiiiii. the the the the the thi. thi, thi, th're going to have these cameras themselves. Russia we're not so sure. We don't have any clear evidence but I feel like it's only a matter of time. Wow. Well he is other Holland Michelle. He came on he rocked he's the author of eyes in the sky the seeker eyes of the Gorgon Stair and how it will watch us. If our listeners, I am people watching on YouTube, want to check more stuff for yours out, where should they go? Well, you can just Google Eyes in the Sky, the Secret Rise of Gorgon Stare. You can go to my website, Arthur, I tea Arthur, W.R.I.T. Arthur. That, those are the main spots where you can find everything that I'm up to.

The book is also available in audio book format. We had this great voice actor, L.J. Gansa, read it. It's a really fun listen if you commute a lot. Yeah, it's all out there. It should be easy to find. Well, you are excellent. Please come back on anytime you got anything you want to talk to us about. It was a great episode. Was it the weirdest interview you've ever done or is this? No, no, I've had some pretty curious ones. Have you heard of a show called Coast to Coast A.M? Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Yeah. So I did that show. I did that. I. I that. I that. I that. I that. I that. I that. I that. I that. I've that. I've that. I've that. I've that. I've that. I've that. I've that. I've that. I've that. I've that. I've th. I've that. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I've th. I've got. I've th. I've th. I've to Coast AM? Yeah, I love it. So I did that show in New York. I was in New York and it was 1 a.m. New York

time and the only place where I could get a landline was in it actually a high school library. Oh my father-in-law works. So I was sitting in this creepy high school library at one o'clock in the morning Oh wow. Terrified talking to good old George Norrie about all of his crazy wild theories. It was pretty pretty special. Yeah. Well you were excellent. We appreciate you coming out if you're in LA please stop by and man. Thank you for doing a show man. I appreciate you. Oh, thanks. I'd love to come back. It's been a pleasure. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the one o' one o' co. one. one. one. one. one. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the one. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. one. the please stop by. And man, thank you for doing the show, man. I appreciate you. Oh, thanks. I'd love to come back. It's been a pleasure. Anytime all the time. Guys, if you're watching on YouTube, make sure a subscribe button. Tell your friends about the show. The show is growing and it only grows when you let your friends know about it. Pleasure as always. Thank you, Aaron. Thank you everybody. th. th. th. th. to. to. to. to. to. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tha. tha. tha. th. thi. tha. tha. tha. tha. th. th. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. th. Thanks. Thanks. th. Thanks. Thanks. th. Thanks. th. th. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha.