Tin Foil Hat With Sam Tripoli - #425: Hamilton's Pharmacopeia with Hamilton Morris

Starting point is 00:00:00 Tinfoil Hap. Oh, what the fuck are you guys even talking about? Global controls will have to be imposed. And a world governing body will be created to enforce them. Welcome to Tinfoil Haas. We go deep home, boy. Aaron, open your mic. Drink from the fountain of knowledge.

Starting point is 00:00:27 There's lizard people everywhere. That's some interdimensional mindek. Wake up, Aaron. This is only the beginning. There's, you just move my mind. Are you ready to get your mind down? Good morning, Swarm! And welcome to that manly, manly intro to this manly, manly show.

Starting point is 00:00:54 Guys, you know who I am. You know what I'm here to do. I'm here to rock. That's right, joining me across the way. To know him is to love him. He's part of the hit new show. We don't smoke smoke the same the same the same the same the same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same same the same same same same the same same same same the same the same the same the same the way to know him is to love him. He's part of the hit new show, We Don't Smoke The Same, Xavier Greiro. What's up? See now that rock was manly.

Starting point is 00:01:12 Yeah, that was a manly rock. And on the ones and twos, the silent assassin, he jumps in and when he speaks his words matter. Johnny Woodward, aka Jay Nice. What's up Jay Nice? How are you? I am stoked about the guest today. Yeah we have a great guest and we're very excited to have them on and it's gonna be an all-time great. I'm gonna kill this interview, do nothing bad and not make any mistakes. I think it's gonna start perfectly. It's gonna start perfect timing, perfect jokes, perfect everything.

Starting point is 00:01:48 You called on the right thing. Yeah, it's gonna be the best ever. I will shine and not have to save the interview. Three minutes in. Okay, totally. But guys, listen, even though it's snowing where you're probably living, I will be coming and visiting people because I'm like, you know, the post office. I come no matter sleet, snow, rain, or whatever,

Starting point is 00:02:11 and I will be live in Raleigh this weekend at Good Nights with Johnny Woodard will be there, Jay Nice will be there, his aunt, her black boyfriend, with my good friend, John Toll. Are you gonna be okay with another John on the show???? the show? the show, the show, the show, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, thi. I'm, th. I'm, th. I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I. I. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, th. I, th. I's. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th tho th th th th tho tho the post. th tho tho with my good friend John toll are you gonna be okay with another John on the show is that some weird shit I'm not a John I'm a Johnny okay we got John you doing the five to what's that full five over there full fucking five I know I don't Johnny I'm up on stage right after Jessica Wellington she'll be going up first Johnny J nice and John told them myself so come hang out I know I know you're gonna be to be the the the the the the the the the the the to the to be up to be up the the the the the to be up the to be up the the the the the the the the the the the to be up to be up to be up to be up to be up the the the to be up to be up to be up to be up to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to be up to be up to be up to be up to be up to be up to be up to be up to be up to be up the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, and John told them myself, so come hang out.

Starting point is 00:02:47 I know you're going to be angry. I don't have shirts. They just, they're like, you got to sell outside. I'm just, I'm not going outside to sell shirts. I'm sorry. I would love to bring some nice shirts to you. It just can't help in this time. But I will I I I I I I I I I I I I I I will the the the the their their th I will th I will their time. But I will be doing meet and greets so I will meet you and I will tell you how much I love you.

Starting point is 00:03:06 Okay, so please come hang out. Then the first of March and you can get these dates very soon. Okay, I'll get into it. But March 4th, 5th, and 6th, I am at the Dojo of Comedy and Morris Plains, New Jersey, and then on the 10th I'm at Float Fest in Texas as long as it's thaw I will be there go to floatfest.com and you will see what we're talking about come join us. That's a free show so if you're nearby just show up yeah show up bring your tent bring your RV come get weird I have a feeling it's gonna be weird and that's what I'm all about. Because these crypto pirates are fun, wacky people. Wack-whack-doodles. Wacka-doodles. So that's that. My website's finally up, guys. My date should be up by the time you hear this, hopefully,

Starting point is 00:03:58 go to Sam Tripoli.com. You're going to be able to get all of your Timfol Hat videos that you could ever want to see, they will all be there. Go to again Sam Tripoli.com, you're going to be able to get the Timful Hat, Patron there and Zero will be available there. We're working on everything. I'm trying to get all the different shows there. But you get all my stuff. .

Starting point is 00:04:24 . the different shows there so but you get all my stuff you get Timful Hat, Broken Sim, Cash Daddies, Punch Drunk, the Union of the Unwanted, they'll all be there. So you can, I mean because you guys know I just got, I literally just got a ding from YouTube on a animation that is roughly eight years old. And they're like yeah we're digging it for this. They want, listen, YouTube wants YouTube to be the mass singer. There's nothing we could do about that. So we got pulled off.

Starting point is 00:04:52 You can find it on rumble. You can find on rockfin. You can find it on Odyssey. And you find on Sam Tripli. Go check that out. You can find my spiritual show, which is available,fin dot com right now it is called zero you can also find my my new sports show called the greatest of all time sports talk rock fan the greatest that's goats go check that out I'm sure Xavier will get on there someday yeah we don't say money he just likes to live in the burial chasing chickens. Okay that's what that's at anything else oh t-shirts

Starting point is 00:05:30 t-shirts are moving man go to Timfall Hat T-shirts dot com or you can go to Sam Triply dot com and click shop. The new one is limited addition only a hundred and I'm pretty sure we're almost halfway there. Yeah, we're almost halfway there. It is fisting the machine, Timphal has for the people. Then we have Trumpzilla, no, that was sold out. And then we have, what was the other one that's brand new? The fighting, fight for charity. Yeah, fight for charity, me fighting, Bill Gates.

Starting point is 00:06:00 that and more. If you want th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. th. the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. th. th. It. th. th. the. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. the. the. the. the. the. to hear the new Broken Sam early and unedited no ads, Patreon.com slash broken simulation. Yeah, man, anything else guys? I feel like we nailed that. That's it, brother. Guys, this episode we have Hamilton Morris from Hamilton's Pharmacopia. Man it is a great episode, a lot of fun. He's a good dude. We had a great time and it's not at any point shaky. Drink from the fountain of Nile. All right, let's get into it very rarely.

Starting point is 00:06:35 Am I super giddy to talk to a guest? But this time I am very excited to talk to this guy. Once in a while show comes on that kind of, you know, really like hits me hard and like, and I, it makes me believe that entertainment still has a chance. I had the same feeling when I watched Duncan Trussle's midnight gospel and I felt it when I watched this guy's show, his show is on Vice. He is the director of Hamilton's Pharmacopoeia and yes I nailed it. Please welcome Hamilton Morris. How are you sir? I'm good. Thank you so much for coming on a show. I really appreciate it and I I can't express enough how much I love your show and I and how how inspires me to think that television still has a chance to to put out quality stuff that help that is really really great

Starting point is 00:07:33 great great food for your brain for your soul for your spirit man so thanks for thanks for doing your show I love it. Yeah thank you I'm not sure that it does have a chance but I am glad that you think that. Well you know I mean I got to be honest with you I kind of gave up on a vice a while ago I just just what it was what it is but when I saw your show and I just really thoroughly enjoyed it and I know you got a podcast can tell you us a little bit about your podcast. Sure yeah you can you can listen to it on Patreon it's a chemistry podcast it's in line with a lot of what I did on my show I interview chemists who synthesize unusual psychoactive drugs or do other unusual

Starting point is 00:08:21 work with chemistry and police officers who do law enforcement related to psychoactive drugs and the emphasis thus far. That is awesome. That is awesome. So where do we begin? Where does the Hamilton Morris story start? How do we, where do you start and how do you end up with a show doing drugs? I wouldn't call it a show doing drugs. Well, as a former addict, I go, man, this guy beat the system. So I'm just telling you where I'm coming from.

Starting point is 00:08:59 So please don't take any offense to that. I am a huge fan. So where's your story start. And Johnny, I'm sorry. I know you're getting uncomfortable because you love the show so much. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, the reason that I even say that I don't think there's anything wrong with doing drugs. I think that it's totally of course. But that's not have this idea that that is what the show is, is that it's consuming drugs. And there are many, many, many shows where people, or, you know, YouTube channels, things where people just consume drugs. That's actually fairly common and not very hard to do at all. If that were the show, it would have been easy. What made, and it, I think it would have been a lot less interesting if that was the show. A lot of people think that's the show because there's something so, I don't know why, there's something about either honest discussion of psychoactive drug consumption or, I guess, open portrayal of psychoactive drug consumption that is like shocking to people. So much so that even if it's a minute portion of the show,

Starting point is 00:10:08 I mean, I think in total, my own consumption of psychoactive drugs represents something around 2 or 3% of the total runtime of the entire series. But even though it's this vanishingly small fraction of the show, many people will not only discuss that part of the show. They somehow seem to think that is the show, many people will not only discuss that part of the show, they somehow seem to think that is the entirety of the show. And that part is, yeah, like I said, it's easy. What's difficult is, you know, getting into these unusual labs, spending, going to these

Starting point is 00:10:34 dangerous places, traveling to all these unusual locations, finding people who are willing to talk about these things, whether they're illegal, or they represent a tradition that has never been previously documented. So that's the hard part. And that's also the hard part to sell. You know, if it, again, if it were just consumption of drugs, that would be, I think, pretty easy. What is hard is the legally questionable aspects of depicting the manufacturer of controlled substances.

Starting point is 00:11:08 I would 100% of their terms of how do you do it? It's the tons and people always ask me they're like how on earth did you do this? There's enormous, enormous numbers of shows about drugs all over the place. It's not uncommon at all. The only thing that is uncommon is I think that my show happens to be somewhat good and most of the other ones are bad because they are made by people that don't know about the subject. I mean, the bar is very, very low. When I say that my show is good, it's not, I don't even feel like there's any arrogance and saying that because just relatively speaking, everything else is so terrible. It's, you know, like, thi thi thi thi thi their their their their their their their their their thi, it's you know, like drugs ink type stuff that is just, you know, it's foolish,

Starting point is 00:11:46 it's thoughtless. There's no care taken to ensure that it's factually accurate or that it's, you know, has some kind of constructive contribution to people's understanding of the subject. I would agree with all everything you've said and I, that's why I do enjoy the show. I do enjoy the subject. I would agree with all everything you've said and I that's why I do enjoy the show. I do enjoy the analytical look into everything that is going on the story behind it the history of it. I love all that. Where does your story start? Were you always inquisitive about stuff like this? Is this something that one inspires all this? Again, I mean, I think that's, I think many people are very interested in drugs and I think,

Starting point is 00:12:35 I'm sort of surprised by, when you consider what an enormous role drugs have in not only our culture, but pretty much every culture, how many people's lives have been altered fundamentally by drugs, whether they've been saved by drugs or whether they feel that their lives were changed for the worst by drugs or whatever. And if not you, someone you know, someone in your family. And then you think about how little people still know about the subject, despite it being tremendously important to everything that surrounds them. So I just wanted to really get into it and to cultivate a holistic understanding of the subject via chemistry, you know, the drug policy legal aspects of it, historical aspects, and to try to consolidate as much information as possible to help both myself

Starting point is 00:13:29 and other people understand how we got to where we are in terms of all the amazing scientific discoveries and what we know about drugs, but also all of the backward foolish attitudes that we have, and, of course course prohibition. But how did I do it? You know, it's I studied neuroscience and anthropology and chemistry in college and I was interested in writing about it.

Starting point is 00:13:57 And there was, because it, like I said, it's actually not hard to do things about drugs at all. As soon as I started proposing these stories, it was easy to do things about drugs at all. As soon as I started proposing these stories, it was easy to get them published because people find the subject totally fascinating. And then I think that there was some people were receptive to the stories because they realized that there was something kind of unusual about the way that they were being told. And it started out very small. I made the first episode of my series when I was 21 and I was still in college

Starting point is 00:14:31 and I think I shot it over spring break probably and then, you know, made it, it was shot with two people and it was done almost as a joke really, you know, I didn't think anyone would watch it. And I certainly, this was before you things even went on YouTube. And then, and then it was successful enough that I made another and another and another, and then it became a TV show. Guys, I want to tell you about our good friends at Blu-choo, that's right. Blue Chlo. for Boner, okay? Hardcore, American-loving boners. All right, Johnny loves it, XG loves it, he loves it when it's Bluzotos, Chulotos, okay? He loves it all. I love Blu-chu, you

Starting point is 00:15:13 love Blu-chu. We all love Blu-chu. Okay, Blu-chu is a unique online service that delivers the same active ingredients as Viagra and sales, but in a chewable form at a fraction of the cost. Okay, Blutu tablets help men achieve harder, stronger erections to combat all forms of ED. Okay, Bluetooth is an online prescription service, okay, no visits to the doctor's office, awkward conversations, and no waiting and lie at the pharmacy. That is the worst. When you're waiting near a hot chick, you're like, what is she coming for? And then she's like, oh my god, you're getting boner bills?

Starting point is 00:15:53 You can't get rock hard? I go, I'll get rock hard, the wind baby. But you know what? Blu to make a little harder, my shaker rocks when I got on Bluetooth right anybody you know what I'm talking about you know I use the 45 milligram I'm not 30 I go hard that goes hard hard you got it goes hard Johnny what do you do what do you do no yeah that's right Johnny loves it blue to license medical providers work with you to figure out the right ingredients and strength for your prescription. Don't like swallowing pills? No problem, okay? Bluetooth's got blue chew tablets are chewable, okay, blue chew tablets are made in the USA.

Starting point is 00:16:34 U.S. Bonner, US Bonner. Every time I take a Blu-choo I feel like American and I'm running to the Royal Rumble and I'm about to drop a hammer, a man's, man action right on my lady, okay? Blutu, is American made, made in the USA and they prepare and ship it in a discreet, fucking package and it's cheaper than the pharmacy, okay? So it's real simple here everybody, okay? We got a special deal for you, all right, for our listeners. Try Blutu free when you use a promo code, tinfoililil, tinexxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxininin, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to tooatinatinatinatinatinatinatinatinatin' right, to, tooom, tooom, right, right, right, too, too, too, too, too, too, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, th. th. thu, tho, toooom. tooom. toooom. the the toooooom. toooooom. tooooooooooooooooooooooo, too, deal for you, all right, for our listeners. Try Blutu free when you use a promo code tinfoil at checkout. Just pay $5 shipping. That's Blutu.com promo code tinfoil to receive your first month free. And we thank Bluchoo for sponsoring this show for making more Americans possible. Okay, we love you Bluchew.

Starting point is 00:17:22 The history of drugs is very interesting because there is a time where the drug was legal and then suddenly it is not illegal. What are, what do you think are the forces behind making that happen? And why are drugs illegal? Yeah, there isn't a single answer to that question because it's many forces and there are many reasons and it also depends on the drug. But you can make a valid argument that there are racial, historical, racial reasons for it, and that is true.

Starting point is 00:17:58 You can make a valid argument that nefarious political manipulations were the reason. That's also true. And you can also make an argument that it was well-intentioned people who saw that there was what they perceived as a problem that they didn't fully understand. And they thought, okay, oh no, no, no, this is terrible. There's people that are dying. There are people that havethought, okay, oh, no, no, no, this is terrible. There's people that are dying. There are people that have problems, maybe even crimes are being committed as a result of people using these things. Well, clearly, they're bad.

Starting point is 00:18:33 So let's get rid of them, and then we'll solve all the badness associated with it, which is a, you know, that's basically how we approach crime, or we approach many social problems. We think, okay, it's bad when people steal things, we'll make theft illegal, and then that will solve the problem. Of course, this is a different type of problem. It's one that can't be solved with imprisonment, or any kind of typical legal intervention because it's a victimless crime.

Starting point is 00:19:07 There is no victim involved in the consumption of a psychoactive drug. So it doesn't quite fall into the same categories and you have to actually infringe on people's liberty in order to enforce these laws. So I understand why it happened, just generally speaking, but like I could go on and on about this, and you know, Nixon was aware that it would like allow selective prosecution of politically unfavorable adversaries that they were connected to the counterculture, they were connected to the anti-ulture, they were connected to the anti-war movement.

Starting point is 00:19:47 They were, in the 1960s, psychedelics specifically were thought to pose a threat to the traditional American way of life. So that's part of it. But the other part is that when you make something illegal, you gain tremendous power to selectively prosecute, imprison, surveil, interfere with people that you want to, right? So that's the wonderful thing about drugs being illegal, is almost everyone is a criminal, almost. And so you now have the ability to interfere with almost anyone you want. I mean, think about how easy it is in somewhere like New York City to search someone

Starting point is 00:20:34 because you can claim to smell cannabis. Well, most parks in New York City smell like cannabis. Most apartment buildings smell like cannabis, because somewhere, someone is using cannabis. So a police officer can say that they smell cannabis and then legally have probable cause to search you. So that's, you know, it's tremendously powerful in terms of giving law enforcement the ability to search whoever they want.

Starting point is 00:21:00 And if that's what you want, if you want to have the freedom to search people, it's tremendously advantageous. I'm curious, hey Hamilton, Johnny here, at the federal level, what do you think the best approach is? Is it decriminalization? Is it total recreational, just, you know, unleash the crack in and make everything recreational and legal? What do you think is the best approach? Yeah, I mean do you think is the best approach there? Yeah, I mean I do think decriminalization is totally necessary. I think that there should probably be a combination of different things where there should be because traditionally all these different modes have been considered in

Starting point is 00:21:40 opposition to one another. So like in the 90s especially there was this idea that Marinole, are you all familiar with Marinole? Yes, I believe my grandfather had to take it when he was undergoing cancer treatment. So Marinole is an FDA approved THC solution that is prescribed. And typically in the past when you'd asked a conservative politician like Mitt Romney, like why can't we have legal cannabis? He'd say, well, we have Marinole. Marinole is THC. It's pharmaceutical THC.

Starting point is 00:22:16 So if you need, if you want to use it therapeutically, you can already have it. You don't need cannabis. You have marinaul. So marinaul was considered politically a, basically a dangerous threat to the, any kind of liberalization of cannabis law. So what happened was that many people in the cannabis community started to treat marinaul as if it was a bad thing, right? But it wasn't. It was THC. It's not a bad thing at all, but they'd say, oh no, no, no, you don't understand. It's it doesn't have the therapeutic properties of cannabis because of the turpines, because of the other cannabinoids, because of the entourage effect, because of this, because of that. What they really were, I imagine many people who genuinely believe that, but the the the the the the the real, but the the real, the the real, the real, the the real, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, threathera, their, threathea, their, their, their, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it doesn't, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's is is is the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their, their their,, it was that it was a threat to the legalization of cannabis. And in an ideal world, you don't have that adversarial relationship, you have everything. You have pharmaceutical products for people that want pharmaceutical products, and you have cannabis for people that want cannabis, and you don't have any of this complicated

Starting point is 00:23:18 medical pretense of I'm getting my cannabis for a headache disorder because it's not legal for adult recreational use. I mean, this is just th It's stupid. This is stupid stuff for our society to do. I mean, well, like, it's it's and it's also a waste of medical doctor's time. Like, can you imagine going to medical school just to become a fraudulent prescriber of cannabis? Because the only framework for the distribution of it happens to be via a medical doctor? I mean, th, th, th, th, th, th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I thuuuuui th is just thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thu, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thu, thu, thu-a, thu-s, thu-s, thu-s, thu-s, thu-s, thu-s, thu, I th. th. th. thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thiiiiiiiiiii. I'm thiiiuiui. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi, thi of it happens to be via a medical doctor. I mean, it's so stupid. It's such a waste. I couldn't agree more.

Starting point is 00:23:49 And they also, hold on one second, they also, by making something black market, you raise the price of it extremely high. Something that's very common, you put on a black market suddenly, you got to pay way. And you also put money in the wallets of people who operate outside the system, I mean, you know, with guns and... Right. Right. Right. Which is, which is I think, and that's another thing that people get confused by. Like sometimes people will say, oh, it's so unethical to use cocaine. How could you possibly use cocaine? the bloodshed? What about the deaths? How could you sleep in night and use cocaine? And they're confused. They seem to actually think that the cocaine is the bad thing.

Starting point is 00:24:29 Yes. The bad thing isn't the cocaine. The bad thing is a black market where the distribution has to be routed through cartels. And because of the illegality, all of this violence is necessary. But that's not a product of the alkaloid cocaine. That's a product of prohibition in the black market. Could not agree more. And but then you get into things like, okay, if you could sit there and go, I am, you could ruin your life doing cocaine.

Starting point is 00:24:59 You know, I go to recovery stuff for cocaine for amphetamines and alcohol. You know, I had trouble with it, so I clean myself up. You know, but what is the reason to outlaw mushrooms? What could that be? Nobody's selling their body to get mushrooms. Nobody's robbing people for mushroom money. No, you know, like what what is what is the purpose of that? Well when you say that what do you think about terms about hard drugs or

Starting point is 00:25:31 soft drugs because they would consider shrooms to be soft drugs and the other ones hard drugs isn't it just because it's availability in a way? That's my question why is mushrooms I know organs moving towards that maps is moving well and this and but and there's no logic to the scheduling of drugs, especially at the federal level. Well, there's logic when you when you start thinking, okay, there's this group of people who want to control what we consume and control the money. That is the real reason, but I wanted to know, you know, if Hamilton has anything he

Starting point is 00:26:05 thinks might be different. Yeah, well, I agree with that. There is a logic to it, and yes, the logic is a purely monetary logic. There is a capitalist pharmaceutical system, and Schedule I drugs are by definition drugs that have no medical value, drugs that cannot be sold by pharmaceutical companies. Now already that's a stupid idea. Right, right.

Starting point is 00:26:32 Right. Like just right off the bat, that's a stupid idea because who's to say what does or does not have medical value. That's something that we may find out that. Sybin is really treatment, really valuable topically for treatment of psoriasis or something. Who knows? I mean, it's really like what is or is not medical is a product of our culture and the current state of scientific research and what we're prescribing for various things. It could be anything depending on what people decide is effective. But more importantly, so Schedule I, like I said,

Starting point is 00:27:07 it means no medical value. That's one of the definitions. Yet you have cannabis in Schedule 1, which is recognized to have medical value. And you have THC, which is the most important cannibinoid in cannabis, which is recognized to have medical value. So how is it possible that THC can be in two legal schedules simultaneously, one for its medical use and one that explicitly says that it does not have medical use, and the same

Starting point is 00:27:35 is true of GHB. So GHB is simultaneously occupying two legal schedules, one that says, schedule one it has no medical use, and then another that says it's a treatment for nar-nchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchchch..... Hn. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. the the t. the the the the the the the the the the the one that says schedule one, it has no medical use, and then another that says it's a treatment for narcolepsy. It's just completely hypocritical and contradictory. It makes no sense. And the hard drug, soft drug dichotomy is not a pharmacologically meaningful one. It's meaningless. We just are deciding that cocaine is a hard drug and cannabis isn't a hard drug. That doesn't mean anything. I mean, if you go, if you, it it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's, it's just. It's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. It's the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tip. the the the tip. the the tip. the the the the the tip. the the the drug and cannabis isn't a hard drug. But that doesn't mean anything. I mean, if you go to South America, it's toma for people to drink cocaine tea. That's tea made with coke leaves that contain cocaine.

Starting point is 00:28:16 People do it all the time. Is that a hard drug? It's cocaine, but it's not a hard drug anymore because it's being consumed orally instead of being snorted. So then is that a product of the molecule or the root of administration or the cultural associations? I mean, clearly, this hard drug, soft drug dichotomy is not a product of the molecule itself. So it's a cultural construct that we've created to represent what types of use we consider threatening in our specific culture at this specific time. And what you said about, you know, the problems that are associated with cocaine or with opioids or with amphetamine, but and how you feel that mushrooms are less of a problem, well, you know, then someone will decide that mushrooms are a problem.

Starting point is 00:29:02 Mushrooms were legal in the Netherlands. And then a tourist, a French tourist named Gail Karoff, supposedly ate some mushrooms and jumped off a bridge. It's not even clear that that truly happened, but that was the story that was reported in the media. And they say, oh no, a tourist jumped off a bridge. So these things are bad after all, so they should just be illegal. That's the way it works, typically is something bad happens, and journalists uncritically report on it with no understanding of the potential legal, political, scientific implications of what they're doing. There's a public outcry. Politicians who don't really care one way or the other, decide to do what they think will make them look strong and

Starting point is 00:29:46 Responsive in the eyes of the public and they make it illegal I completely agree a great example. This is in Nevada. There are actually people doing I believe life for marijuana for the amount of marijuana. For the amount of marijuana they were caught with but if you got busted, if you got busted, if you actually got busted with, let's say, cocaine. That was that was the public. That the public. That the public. That was the public. That was the public. That was the public. That was the public. That was the public. That was the public. That was the public. That was?? the public. That was? I? I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I the public. I the the public. I, the the public. I, the the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I, the public. I was, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I was. I was. I was. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm the the the the the the the the the busted, for the longest time in Nevada, if you actually got busted with, let's say, cocaine, that was less harsh in Nevada than weed because they had discovered that people like to gamble on cocaine. They'll do a rail and then they'll just play blackjack or pie gal for two days straight, you know, so they, so if you got busted with a plant, I mean, they're both plants. But like one has definitely a, uh, a, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, uh, th, th, uh, uh, uh, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, cocaine, th, cocaine, cocaine, cocaine, th, cocaine, cocaine, cocaine, cocaine, cocaine, cocaine, thi, thi, thi, tha, tha, tha, thooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, tha, tha, tha, tha, you know, so they, so if you got busted with a plant, I mean

Starting point is 00:30:25 they're both plants, but like one has definitely a crazier vibe than the other. Hey everybody, I want to tell you about our friends at B.MG.Eleet.com, okay? Now if you're going to be in Northern California and you're looking to get some weed, this is the best company to do it, okay? It's, if you're you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you're th. If you're th. If you're th. If you're th. If you're th. If you're to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to go go to go to go. to go. to go. to go. to go. to go. I. I go. I. I, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to... I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. th. to. th. th. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. t. t. tod. today. tell. tell. tell, tell, tell, to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. th. to get some weed. This is the best company to do it, okay? If you're looking for great weed and hate driving to dispensaries and stand a line, go to BMG Elite.com to buy the best from Grand Flora Cannabis. Buy the ounce and we have it delivered straight from the farm to your front door, okay? I mean no more going and hanging out in these freaking dispensaries in line waiting with your mask on. Uh-uh, no more, Northern Cal, you go to BMG Elite.com,

Starting point is 00:31:17 use the promo code Tinfoil, and you'll get $50 off your purchase. Okay? Bam, all right? Statewide delivery! Coming soon, man, but if you're in NorCal, okay, you're in NorCal, you're looking for some weed. You're on a business meeting, right? You're going to Apple to talk to him about this new AI you got, okay? Boom, you call them, BMG elite, they'll send weed right to your house, right to your, right, to your, to your, to your, to your, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, theyy.e.eathea.eathea.eathea.eathea, statewide, statewide, statewide, statewide, statewide, statewide, statewide, statewide, their, their, theirG Elite, bam, they'll send weed right to your house, right to your hotel, wait to your, you know, you're staying in a hostile, right? You're pretty sure it's haunted,

Starting point is 00:31:52 but you want to get high. Boom, BMG Elite. Good shit. Good shit. Top shelf, weed right from the farm. That's how we do it at BMG Elite. So if you're in NorCal, anywhere in NorCal, hit these guys up, they will get the weed right to you. That's BMG Elite.com. At promo code tinfoil and save 50% off your purchase. BMG Elite.com. And you know, there will be people that will, like when we look at generations in the future and we go,

Starting point is 00:32:24 people did life for marijuana. they will go. they they they they they they they they will they will they will get they will get they will get they will get they will get they will get they will get they will get they will get they will get they will get they will get they will get they will get they will get they will get the weed, the weed, the weed, the weed, they will get the weed they will get they will get they will get they they they they they they they they they they will get they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they the weed. the weed. the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the weed the future and we go, people did life for marijuana, they will go, are you nuts? And that's exactly what's going on, man. We allow people of an older generation to determine what people want to do. How, what they are or are not allowed to do? I mean, how long have people been pro-marijuana? Right? I mean, forever. And it's now slowly going. But I bet you if you went to like the elderly going, are you pro or anti-marijuana? They're like, Refer Madness. Yeah, totally. And that generation that tends to do all the voting, we'll vote it down. Hamilton, I assume you've studied this. Relative to past generations, are we, legally speaking, our relationship with psychedelics?

Starting point is 00:33:10 Are we among the more restricted people throughout history? Great question. Would you say? You know, it depends, relative to when? I mean, just, so we're not the most, you would say. I mean, relative to the entire history of Manhattan. More psychedelics that are illegal than ever before in history. The list of controlled substances contains, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:33:35 I would say, at least 50 psychedelics at the moment, maybe more. And so yeah, we just keep scheduling psychedelics and cannabinoids and opioids indiscriminately. It's happening all the time. So while there's this emphasis on the therapeutic properties of a small number of psychedelics like silicide then, LSD, and then if you want to include dissociatives and cannabinoids like, you know, THC and ketamine, at the same time, the psychedelics that are considered unfavorable or bad by many people, like 25i and B-O-M-E are being placed in Schedule 1. So it's, there is progress, but at the same time

Starting point is 00:34:23 we are still making the same mistakes that we did in the past, because it requires, it basically requires abandoning all of these good, bad, soft, hard, legal, illegal, pharmaceutical, recreational dichotomies. And you have to recognize that this entire framework is flawed, and that no drug should be illegal. It's just not, regardless of whether you like it or not, this is not something that I'm saying from the perspective of, you know, if you like drugs, they should be, even if you hate drugs, you should want them to be legal because it will allow for them to be regulated more effectively, it will allow for them to be regulated more effectively, it will allow for them to be researched more effectively, it will allow for a market that

Starting point is 00:35:12 has all sorts of advantages that will reduce some of the harms associated with use, whether it's testing to make sure that the drugs are what the user actually thinks they are, or whether it's, you know's supervised injection centers or government injection centers where people are provided with opioids. And some people would say, oh, that's ridiculous. How could you possibly do that? Well, we do that with methadone already. So we're doing it now.

Starting point is 00:35:37 This would just be a modified version of that. And it's clear that that actually reduces some of the problems. If people are afraid of, who are dependent on opioids robbing them or something like that so they have money for opioids, then just give them opioids. They cost almost nothing to produce. Let the people have whatever, you know, let them have them. It's not a, it's like, relative to some of the other things that taxpayers are funding, I think that's a pretty small burden on the taxpayer. I mean, I imagine the raw material cost for a year of opioids would be like, you know,

Starting point is 00:36:13 if you were doing it right, it might be less than $50 a person. Wow. Wow. Now, have you done any research Hamilton into what happens when drugs do get legalized in a certain area does does consuming go up or does it go down I feel that there's a little when something's a little outlaw people want to be like oh this is dangerous I'm doing something yeah I'm trying to think where they I mean Portugal is an example right I think and I from what I've been told it

Starting point is 00:36:43 it goes down yeah the we the, we don't want to smoke weed right now. They don't think it's at school because everyone smokes weed. It's right down the street. But I could be wrong though, I mean. I mean sex, I've heard that with sex, now that sex is much more liberal now, that kids aren't like trying to be as crazy as as they as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as they as they as as they they as as as as they as they they as they they they as as as as as as as as as as as as as, as as, as as, as th as th as th as thi as thi, as thi, as thi, as thi, as thi, as thi, as thi, as thi, as thi, as thi, as thi as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as th as thi as thi, as thi, as the the the is the the issue that it used to be. Right, and patterns may shift as well. So if, you know, for example, hypothetically, if cannabis consumption were to increase in a state where it is legal, there might be some compensatory decrease in alcohol consumption or something like that, or maybe a decrease in some other, you know, I think that the most enlightened attitude toward drugs is to realize that everyone is pursuing some drug-like experience, whether they're using actual, you know, chemical drugs or not. Maybe it's compulsive exercise.

Starting point is 00:37:42 Maybe it's having sex with lots of people, maybe it's playing video games all day, maybe it's watching streaming entertainment, maybe it's listening to podcasts, maybe it's you know looking at your phone all day. There's all sorts of things that people do compulsively that have a drug-like effect, which is basically to lessen suffering and cause euphoria of one kind or another or at the very least reduced suffering. So yeah, I think that people will shift in various directions toward one type of suffering reduction strategy or another, and drugs are just one of them. They're just one of them and they're, you know, arguably, I don't think they just one of them and they're you know arguably

Starting point is 00:38:45 I don't I don't think they're all that much worse than you know spending all of your time on Instagram or whatever is your or Twitter You know, I like there's a lot of great minds that have been destroyed during the Trump administration by spending all their time complaining about Trump like some of the smartest people. Yes, yes, yes. That's such a good point. Yeah, truli. I, th, th, th, th, th, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't th, I don't, I don't th th th thi, I th th thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I th th th th th th th th th th th th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I don't, I don't, I don't th, I don't th, I don't th th th, I don't thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thin thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi their time complaining about Trump. Like some of the smartest people I know. Yes, yes, yes. That's such a good point. Truly, some of the smartest people I have ever known lost themselves to Twitter during the Trump administration. They could have been creating great works of art. And instead, they're just non-stop tweeting about whatever the dumb thing Trump did that day. You know, is that better or worse worse than than than than than than tha thi or worse thi or worse their their their their their their their their the whatever the dumb thing trumped it that day. You know, is that better or worse than being addicted to morphine? I don't know. But it's certainly losing yourself in something else that is having a drug-like effect on you that's not constructive.

Starting point is 00:39:16 So, or is, like, I think minimally constructive, there certainly were enough people out there doing that all the time that, you know, you didn't need need need need need need need need need need need need need need need need need to to to be to be to be the to be the tothat all the time that you know you didn't need to be the like and I yeah anyway so it's it's hard to even say you know when you legalize something like patterns will shift I would have to look at you know data from Portugal and say my impression is that it does not increase use in the way that people think it would. Because that's the other thing, people will say, oh, you can't legalize cocaine, because if you legalize cocaine,

Starting point is 00:39:49 then everyone would be doing cocaine. Would they? No. You know, is that the only thing that's a whole of the back? Yeah. No. it's illegal and as soon as it's legal you put down everything in your life to become a cocaine addict or a heroin addict of course not. Why would you? Like there's no reason to you. You know my whole theory is this it's like you know

Starting point is 00:40:11 okay we got them this mandate with mass that that's not this conversation but you know what law has been passed that you were like I can't do this now. Like what we have passed laws to end murder, sexual assault, kidnapping, all this stuff, they still happen, right? I mean, and here's my problem with drugs loss is as a recovering drug addict, okay, and that's why I made a joke earlier, sorry about the Hamilton, it was a joke, my mouth. Okay, I felt bad. Oh man, this open bad. Save it, Tripoli. You know, as a recovering drug addict, I, if I would have been, I did get busted buying drugs at one point.

Starting point is 00:40:55 The blessings was that through illegal, I had the charges dropped. But let's say I, I didn't go that way. And I got nailed and I got thrown in jail. Well, I am a felon for a very long time. For if not forever, I have heard people get stuff dropped, but it is so incredibly hard. I can stop doing drugs and I can stop doing drugs for 10 years. But I am always a felon. Yeah, there's a whole class, it's a class system in America. There's a class of people, they're called felons and they have fewer rights than the rest

Starting point is 00:41:30 of something. Yeah, and it's just like, and it could even be just one moment I make a mistake. Now, alcohol is legal everywhere. I mean, that is almost the greatest counter to drugs being illegal. We have alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol. that alcohol. that alcohol. that alcohol. that is alcohol. that is alcohol. That is alcohol. That is alcohol. that is that is that is that is that is th. th. th. th. thi. thi. I can can can't thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. I can can can can't, I can't, thi. I can't, thi. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can can can can can can can can can can can can can can. I can. I can can can. I can. I can. I can. I can can can can. I can can. I. I, I can can can can can can can. I. I can can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. th. th. thi. thi. that that that that that that the. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. th. thi. th. thi. I th to drugs being illegal. We have alcohol. People drive drunk, people die, people. That's a DUI. Driving drunk is a DUI though. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:51 Yeah, which is, it's a whole different thing than just doing drugs though. No, but my point is it's like, like, people, there are consequences to alcohol consumption, yet it is legal. Any argument you have against drugs is probably could be the same thing as you could use against alcohol consumption and we tried to make it illegal and it just went chaotic and the government did crazy stuff to keep it illegal. I mean there's actually stories of them poisoning alcohol so people died to keep it illegal. I mean

Starting point is 00:42:25 yeah that's what denatured alcohol is right it's just meant I mean they destroy it so you can't consume it they were doing that I heard those same stories yeah it's fascinating. I remember when I was young and I heard them trying to make it so crack was the same punishment as cocaine and when I they were so young I was like that's the dumbest movement I've ever heard and then I realized why they were doing that because crack was consumed by a certain demographic and like a nugget of crack would get you the same like same punishment as like a helicopter full of cocaine and you're like

Starting point is 00:43:02 how is that possible and you realize these drug laws are can be very specific to very certain demographics. Politics man it's all politics right and that is that is the danger of all this stuff but again when you go back to you know we you go back to weed mushrooms you know I don't I don't think there's an argument on why they should be illegal now acid LSD I mean a lot of people think it's the same thing and they are totally Different drugs would you Hamilton your thoughts on that? I I think they are that why do you think they're different drugs? I mean, I think it is like a street name for LSD. No, I mean, mushrooms and LSD. Oh, I? I the. I the the the they. I they. I they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're. I they're. I they're. I they're they're they're they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I they're. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I talking about mushrooms and LSD. Sorry about that. Mushroomsrooms and LSD. Well, there's certainly different drugs chemically and they have different durations.

Starting point is 00:43:53 I don't think they're both psychedelics. What is your impression of the difference between them? Well, I mean, I feel like when you're on mushrooms, you kind of get this moment where you step out of the time continuum and you just have this moment where it's just it seems a little more spiritual and I'd love to get in a spirituality with you on that. LSD just seems like you just poured intergalactic lava on your skull and you're just you're just sonic and you're in the middle of a pinball game and you're just like

Starting point is 00:44:22 bing bing all over the place. Is your impression you think the middle of a pinball game and you're just like, Bing, Bing, Bing, all over the place. But is your impression, you think that because it's synthetic possibly? Is that what you're suggesting? Yeah. And then the history of LSD with the CIA, and you know, and that whole story, the hippie culture. Any thoughts on that, Hamilton? Yeah, I mean, I would see that people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people that people that people that people that people that people that people that people that people that people that people that people that people that people that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that I would see that people have a tendency to talk about drugs as if they are a certain way. Like mushrooms are like this.

Starting point is 00:44:50 LSD is like this. But a lot of when, or for example, DMT is intense. But a lot of, or for example, DMT is intense. Like if you say DMT is intense, everyone will agree with that. That's allthe impression that people have. DMT is intense. But this is all dose dependent. I mean, there's a dose of DMT that isn't intense. There is a mild dose of DMT. DMT is actually, you know, about half the potency of silicin and mushrooms. It's quite a bit less potent, yet people have this idea of DMT being very strong, but that's a product of the way that it it it it it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th is th is th is a th is a th is a t th is a t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. tose. the the the te te te te. te. te. te. te. tose. tose. tose. tose tose tose tose's used and the way that we talk about it. It's not, it is objectively speaking quite a bit less potent than silicin. So an LSD, again, you know, LSD is just dose dependent. There's a low dose of LSD that does not produce

Starting point is 00:45:38 dramatic effects and then there's a high dose and so it really just depends on what dose you're talking about. The major differences I see between LSD and slycibin containing mushrooms is duration. LSD lasts quite a bit longer. But in terms of the government use of... Or where it came from, that's kind of like the history I believe, maybe I'm wrong of LSD. Yeah, I mean, there was there was MK Ultra interest in in silicide and containing mushrooms as well but yeah I mean can you imagine can you imagine like whether you like LSD or not whether you

Starting point is 00:46:15 think that it's spiritual or not or whether you had a life-changing experience or a terrifying experience you have to appreciate that it's capable of doing something incredible something that it's capable of doing something incredible, something that is very important and powerful. And so you can imagine what the CIA would have thought about that. I mean, especially before, without all this hindsight that we have now, and especially at that time, parasycology was considered more valid than it is now. So people, now if you ask a serious scientist, is remote viewing possible?

Starting point is 00:46:53 They will say, no, there's no evidence that that has ever been done. Is our psychic phenomena real? A serious scientist would say, no, there's no evidence for any kind of psychic phenomena. But in the 1950s, people were less certain about that. There was more ambiguity. Even the concept of a truth serum was something that people believed in then in a way that they no longer do. So this potential, maybe this stuff is a truth serum.

Starting point is 00:47:22 Maybe this stuff does allow people to communicate psychically, or to teleport themselves to distant locations, to spy, or maybe it can be used to reprogram someone's personality. I mean, those things sound a little unusual by today's circumstances, but you can imagine how in the 1950s that could have been not only a valid subject of inquiry but a very promising military application for these substances. Hold on you mentioned I'll get to you right there you mentioned remote viewing are you into remote viewing Hamilton is that something you believe in because I'm all about

Starting point is 00:48:01 that actually. I am not I'm not a believer in remote viewing. I have never remote viewed. I do not know anyone who is remote viewed. I've never seen evidence of remote viewing but again I can understand why people would have wanted remote viewing to exist because that would be a really fantastic way to spy on people if you could just sit in an arm chair and teleport yourself to a distant location and secretly observe what's happening. Well, wait, sorry, real quick, actually. The night is young. When you, Hamilton, I believe the finale of the season of your show, you did speak to,

Starting point is 00:48:40 I don't call her name, but the woman who was involved in self-trapination. She said that she had telekinetic experiences. You know, she performed teleconesis with a bird. I'm curious, do you lend any credence whatsoever to those reports from her? You know, I interview a lot of people who have beliefs that I find really interesting. So I think that Amanda Fielding is brilliant and extremely interesting, and she believes that she had a psychic connection with a pigeon that she was in love with. And it's not really important to me whether or not that is real so much as she thought

Starting point is 00:49:23 it was real and it was real to her. So that's that's the reason that I included that in the story. It's not. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th th that's thi that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's brilliant that's brilliant that's brilliant that's brilliant that's brilliant is brilliant that's brilliant that's brilliant that's brilliant that's brilliant that's brilliant that's brilliant that that that's brilliant that that's brilliant that's brilliant that's brilliant that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thii. I's thiia. I thia. I thithought it was real and it was real to her. So that's the reason that I included that in the story. It's not, but do I think that Amanda Fielding was able to psychically communicate with her pigeon? I haven't seen any evidence of it. And you'd have to experimentally test that, you know, you'd have to devise an experiment and and there's a lot of things that seem real until they are experimentally evaluated. But you do think that's worthwhile that's a worthwhile study possibly. It's not a study that I would want to allocate a lot of money and time to performing but for some people yeah sure I mean it really depends on what you're interested in and what you think is

Starting point is 00:50:06 possible and it's it's better to study things than to not study them because if you don't study them at all then they can just persist forever like do any of you know about a facilitated communication are you familiar with this now what is that this was a a fad in the 1980s where there were some psychologists who were working with people who had various developmental disabilities who or had some kind of almost like locked-in syndrome and they had this idea well what if this person seems mentally retarded in one way or another but they're not they just can't communicate and if they could just have some kind of facilitated communication, then maybe

Starting point is 00:50:51 they're just like everybody else, they just can't communicate it. So they started using human beings like the, what is the word, called, like a plan chat or something on a on a Weegee board? Do you know? I know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so they started using human beings like that, using their hands like on a basically on a Weegee board type apparatus like a keyboard.

Starting point is 00:51:18 And they found that all these people who they had previously thought were mentally retarded were actually fully capable of communication. And this was tremeeee-tremendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendendously tremend tremend tremend tremend t had previously thought were mentally retarded were actually fully capable of communication. And this was tremendously exciting. You can imagine if you were a parent and you had a child who had never spoken before and suddenly the sympathetic therapist comes along and says, your son is actually capable of communication and they have a lot to say, they love you, they thank you for your trust in them throughout all these years and they're excited to go to school now.

Starting point is 00:51:50 I mean, they would be immensely, immensely gratifying to have that experience. And so a lot of people didn't critically evaluate this facilitated communication process. As it turned out, it wasn't real at all. And as soon as anyone did any kind of experimental testing and the experiment that they did was they would show the person something like a key or a feather and without the facilitator in the room and then they would bring the facilitator back in and they would say, what did I just show you? But if the facilitator wasn't there,

Starting point is 00:52:24 then they weren't able to report whatever it was that they'd seen. So it took a very simple experiment to demonstrate that this entire process was fraudulent. So there's a lot of things that can persist without any kind, I mean, this is why the scientific method is so beautiful. Is this is th, this is the thi thi thi thi th, this is thi, this is the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi, thi. thi. thi. too. too. too. too. too. too. too, too, too, too, took, took, took, took, t the tool that we have created for evaluating the truth of these claims and without experimental evidence to prove or disprove something

Starting point is 00:52:50 things can persist forever because especially when we want something to be true we want psychic communication to be true we want extraterritorials to be real we want there to be life after death we want all kinds of things we want gorillas we wantrials to be real. We want there to be life after death. We want all kinds of things. We want guerrillas to be able to talk. I mean, the same thing happened with gorillas, right? Where they had all these gorillas that suddenly could communicate through people, you know? And I think most of that is proven not true. But is it possible, Hamilton that of physics that exist outside of the scientific method that are on a playing that maybe we don't understand from from information that is thousands of years old whether it's ancient knowledge from what is

Starting point is 00:53:37 believed ancient civilizations Buddhism when Buddhists back in the day we're talking about how basically we were living in assimilation, simulation, you know, are there things that we can't measure? There are things that we haven't measured, and there are many, many, many things that we don't know. So I want to be very clear about that. But sometimes people get this impression that science has explained everything or that there's no mystery in the world. There is enough mystery to last every scientist internationally for as long as humanity will ever be around. There's no shortage of mysteries. But if you are believing in a materialist scientific

Starting point is 00:54:23 framework, that is to say you believe that we live in a reality that is made of matter, that doesn't include spiritual things that are not material in their nature, then it should be testable via the scientific method. So that's that's the basic idea. So I think that especially in the realm of psychology, you know, there are all sorts of things that we don't understand that have been very difficult to study that are still fundamentally not understood. But that doesn't mean that they're supernatural to me in the same way that, you know, there's a famous psychiatrist named John Mack, or is anyone familiar with him?

Starting point is 00:55:07 No. No. No. He was very interesting in that he was an expert on alien abduction. And his basic attitude toward alien abduction was, it doesn't matter if alien abduction, it doesn't matter if alien abduction is real. What matters is that people think it's real. And if people think it's real, then it's real, and so I have to treat the people who have had these experiences as if it's real.

Starting point is 00:55:31 Because it is real to them. So it doesn't matter whether you know, you could spend your whole life saying, no, you weren't abducted actually. You weren't abducted. to show me the evidence. At that point, then you're foolishish, you you you you are foolish, you are foolish, you are foolish, you are foolish, you're foolish, you're foolish, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi. the, the, the, the, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the, the, the, the, the is the is the is the is theateate is theatea. theatea. thea. thea. theatea. thea. thea. the. the evidence. At that point, then you're foolishly neglecting to address the actual issue, which is that this person thinks they were abducted. So I think that there are all sorts of things that are psychologically real, that may not be materially real, but that doesn't mean that they're not important. Have you had psychedelic experiences that have challenged your materialist views? Have you ever been shaken in that way that so many people are? No, and again, this is another thing.

Starting point is 00:56:11 So when I say that, that's not to say that I haven't had utterly extraordinary experiences. I've had experiences where my entire concept of time disintegrated, where I didn't know who I was, where I thought I was my father or my grandfather, where I was traveling down my genetic lineage back in time, where I didn't know where anything about myself. And these are extraordinary experiences psychologically. I just don't feel the need to explain them supernaturally. Never had a moment, never one moment of weakness. So, like even, you know, what do you mean by weakness? Immediately following maybe he I'm using that colloquially but you know you know when had you never been shaken in a moment after after after an experience

Starting point is 00:56:51 where you thought maybe you brought something back that you couldn't have known anything like that again you know I've had amazing amazing experiences that that were psychologically extraordinary that I can't explain to you pharmacologically. I can't, you know, I can say, oh, you know, the DMT bound to my 5HT to a receptor and it caused glutamate release and the prefrontal cortex and it caused this, you know, disruption of the default mode network and this or that happened, you know, whatever. You can explain these things pharmacologically.

Starting point is 00:57:24 It doesn't capture the psychological psychological psychological the psychological psychological psychological the or that happened, you know, whatever. You can explain these things pharmacologically. It doesn't capture the psychological essence or the experiential essence of what occurred, but I just don't feel the need to invoke spirits or the astral plane or simply because I don't think they have explanatory value. What is really happening is that I am comfortable saying that I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:57:48 So I'm not going to say that it was spiritual because I don't think that has explanatory value. And I'm also not going to say that it was only one thing scientifically, because I don't think that explains it fully either. I'm not saying that it's supernatural. I'm saying that there are some things that we have not adequately described materialistically and I hope one day to be able to do it but we just haven't done it yet. Hey I was wondering did you get any pushback from Vice for showing how the synthetic toad venom was being kind of produced or made? Did anybody tell you

Starting point is 00:58:16 to push back or like in different like you, you straight up showed it yeah but there's also crazier ones like the crystal math line and stuff like that? because you don't anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody anybody any any any any any any any any any any any any any any any any you you you you you you you you you you you you you you the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. th. I I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I the. I the. I th. I'm. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. the. the. the. the. the. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the crystal math one, but I'm wondering if he's ever got pushed back, because you don't see this. You see this on YouTube and you've seen it like on, get rid of that time movie. Yeah, but this, yeah, but this was like, yeah. And I'm wondering you get a pushback. You had like, like, you said, drug, the too drug, and they drug ink, th drug ink, th drug, th drug, th.. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thr-in. thr-a. thr-a. thr-a. thr-in. the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. the the the th. the the th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the th. th. th. the. the. thr. t. ty. toeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat. try. try. try. try. th. th. I. an enormous amount of pushback. And that's why I kind of, that's why when you first said, like, how is it that you did drugs, it's kind of like the question is sort of weird to me

Starting point is 00:58:50 because that truly was never an issue. But showing that synthesis was a huge issue. I mean, I had to, I had to fight so hard to fight so hard to show that synthesis. I had to pay out of pocket to transport all of the scientific equipment to that lab in Mexico. I had to find a lab that would allow me to do that, which thankfully there was a chemist in Mexico who was a fan of my show who also happened to own a giant lab who allowed me to do it there. I had to hire independent legal counsel to assess it. I had to have endless arguments with the legal department who didn't understand the difference between DMT and 5MEO DMT and had never taken a chemistry class. And so it's, you know, they kept saying, well it contains DMT and therefore it is DMT and I would

Starting point is 00:59:35 have to say, okay, but I could call it tri-methal serotonin, I can call it whatever you want to call it. So yeah, that was extremely, extremely difficult. And, and, you know, in retrospect, you know, you do these things and it just, it's on, it happens and people don't make much of it. But at the time, that was so hard to do. That was one of the hardest things I've ever done in terms of getting it on television. And that has been the case with most of the chemistry. that has the th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the the the the the the thea thea thea thea thea thea thea thea thean thean thea thea thea the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. toe. toe. toean. toean. toean. toean. toean. toean. toean. toea. toea. tothe chemistry. That has been really, really hard because people just don't want that for whatever reason. But I think it's very important to show the chemistry. I think that, I think whether you care about chemistry or think it's boring or whatever. I really like chemistry because I think at the end of the day, it is one of the few ways that we can truly know a drug.

Starting point is 01:00:28 Like pharmacology, as I said, doesn't fully or even come close to capturing the experience of a drug. I think art and literature do a much better job of capturing the experiential essence of a drug experience and pharmacology does. And that's not really what you know molecular neuropharmacology is about anyway or at least it's not even close to there yet. But chemistry is something that we can know and what's beautiful about chemistry is it's timeless. You know people first synthesized 5 MEODMT, I think it was probably the 1920s. And that synthesis still works today. That chemistry never becomes obsolete in the same way that experience never becomes obsolete.

Starting point is 01:01:16 Someone's experience using morphine toobey. But if you look at the way the people thought these drugs worked, or the way that people socially considered them, it changes all the time depending on where you are and what politician is in office. So that's, I think, one reason that I like to emphasize synthesis and chemistry is because it's timeless and because it is a genuine way of understanding these substances, even though some people might consider it boring. Well, I mean, they didn't appreciate the synthetic part.

Starting point is 01:01:47 And what's funny is my family's actually from Sonora and I told my dad to watch it, and he was like, yeah, they actually are going after those toats. Like, there's people that are looking for those toads, when he made it synthetically, Well that episode moved me, man. That episode really moved me, man. It just showed a lot of your heart as well. I mean, I know that it, you know, that comes out in a lot of episodes, but that one really moved me the to make a whole episode,

Starting point is 01:02:15 basically going, okay, here's where I was wrong, is like that, that's a sign of somebody who is, who is us who to me has integrity and honest dealer yeah we can you know more of them in TV yeah yeah and then to like to find that guy and even in his state where he was where you know he's in his assistant living and to show him the love and respect and not even stop there but to make sure he got his royalties recognition yeah to me is like a high character brother but and you're concerned for you know you're concerned for the the toads I mean like to me most people don't care when you when you fight for people can't fight for

Starting point is 01:02:57 themselves that's truly a sign of somebody of high character so I very much respect you on that. Was there any episodes that stood out where you were like, wow, I learned a lot here. I'm sure, I mean every episode we all learned so much about, was there one, or any, a couple of them that really stood out to you? I mean, I learned so much on all of them. Whenever people will say like, how, what did you study in college? Like, what class did you take to learn this? And, you know, I think they're not recognizing that so much of the process of learning is actually the making of this documentary series.

Starting point is 01:03:37 It's tremendously educational. Or people say, how do I get a drug? I'm so jealous. I want your job so much of doing. drug. And it's like, are you kidding me? You can do a drug without making a documentary? It's so insanely easy. If your interest is using a drug, then don't make a documentary about it. It will be a million times cheaper and easier. You won't have to deal with any lawyers. You won't have to deal with it. It'll just be like, there's no comparison. I cannot recommend enough not making a documentary if the point is to use a drug. So, but, yeah, it's, you know, that's the real privilege. It's not, you know, every single one of these substances I had used previously privately. The point

Starting point is 01:04:25 was never to use a drug. If I use a drug it was because I wanted to demonstrate something. So for example with Salvia Divenorum everyone thinks, oh Salvia that's the crazy legal drug that you get at the Bong store and then you smoke it and my friend out a five-minute trip and Miley Cyrus did it and that was wild or whatever like and then to see like oh no but for some people this is a god for some people this is you know the most powerful medicine that they have available that this is sacred that they have a rich are utterly in their entire life they have cared about this plant and they use it in a different way.

Starting point is 01:05:05 And the experience is religious for them. So the point there is not to consume a drug, but to show what drug consumption can be like in a different cultural context, so that people have a different vision of what the substance is. And that's, yeah, I mean, that is, I think, extremely beneficial. You know, I, in the new season of my show, I did a piece that's partially about a Boga. And for anyone that doesn't know,

Starting point is 01:05:31 a boga is a central West African shrub that is powerfully psychedelic. And there is a religion, a syncretic Christian religion, where they believe that the tree of knowledge of good and evil from Genesis was in a boga tree, and that the basis of Christianity is a psychedelic tree. So they, but it's a very beautiful, strange religion by our standards. You know, religion is so boring for most people that the idea of having a genuinely transcendent experience is totally alien. You know, you think, you know, I was bar mitzvahed, I had to learn Hebrew, I had to

Starting point is 01:06:18 learn a Torah portion, no aspect of that was remotely spiritual for me in any way, not even 1% spiritual. It was just, it was essentially bureaucratic. There was nothing enlightening about it. You know, I don't look to my Torah portion as a source of knowledge and think, oh, that really was beautiful. That changed me. Whereas this Iboga religion is, you know, it is, I think, represents what religious experience

Starting point is 01:06:45 could be and should be, which is true transcendence and healing and community and, and art and music. You know, this is something that people not only enjoy, they look forward to. This is like the greatest thing in their life. This is the highlight is getting to be part of this ritual, not something that you're doing because your parents are forcing you to do it. So yeah, I mean, I just even seeing that, seeing like, wow, this is a culture that is figured out religion in a way that we have not at all. And, uh, and, you know, talking to so many different types of people, because there's lots of people who are experts on one part of drugs, but you never get

Starting point is 01:07:31 the full picture with one part. You know, you could be the greatest chemist in the world, but you won't understand drugs if you don't also talk to police officers about what they think about drugs, or philosophers or, or artists. And so I think gaining that holistic understanding has been really crucial, and that's been, you know, the biggest part of this for me is just like talking to as many different types of people as possible to try to figure out how we got to where we are. You mentioned on your Patriot Show that you have spoken to police about drugs and their thoughts. Are you do you come away with any sort of over

Starting point is 01:08:09 you know overwhelming perception about what they know? I mean are they are they well-educated on drugs and drug use would you say? No, no they're not. And that's I think one of the widest and most damaging misconceptions in the psychedelic community is that that's, I think, one of the widest and most damaging misconceptions in the psychedelic community is that politicians and law enforcement understand psychedelics, and they are intentionally prohibiting them because they recognize that they represent some kind of powerful force that will interfere with the status quo. And that is not, maybe for a small number of people in the 1960s, maybe they kind of got it. But if you ask the status quo and that is not maybe for a small number of people in the 1960s maybe they kind of got it but if you ask the average cop

Starting point is 01:08:51 you know what is LSD like they don't know they have no idea they don't know how it's different from heroin they just know it's illegal that bad guys use it that it destroys people some people go insane it's damaging whatever they only they have this very negative, very reductionist confused idea of the subject. And the reason that they are able to do this psychologically is because they think it's bad. You couldn't lock people in cages for a living all day, every day and sleep at night if you genuinely thought it was good, or you genuinely thought that these things weren't damaging. You have to convince yourself that it's bad.

Starting point is 01:09:29 And so why is that an important thing to recognize? Why do I even bother saying that? Because it means it can change. If police officers genuinely understood psychedelics or drugs and they were doing this maliciously and they understood why, like, we would have no hope. That would be a far more depressing scenario because they would understand their potential and they would be acting in a calculated manner to prevent people from, you know, having these enlightening experiences.

Starting point is 01:10:01 That's not the case at all. They just don't get it. They don't understand drugs. So they are just, you know, they're just doing what they think is right. Most of these people are just doing what they think they're supposed to be doing. And they don't fully get it. They're not evil. They're just very confused. And, and they're corrupted by it. Because police officers benefit from a basic moral dichotomy of good guys and bad guys, right? You don't wanna think about the world

Starting point is 01:10:31 in terms of its full complexity because that would interfere with your ability to enforce the laws, right? You don't wanna think, oh, maybe that guy stole something because he never had a chance in life. Maybe he never had a father that cared about him. Maybe his mother was addicted to drugs. Maybe he like had, you know, fathered a child that he can't support and he's like just totally fucked up in every dimension of his existence and stealing is the only

Starting point is 01:10:58 hope that he has right now. That's not beneficial. That doesn't help you throw that guy in a cage. Right. Right. So you have to instead think that's a bad guy. That's that's that's that's that's that's a bad that's a bad that's a bad that's a bad that's a bad that's a bad that's a bad that's a bad that's a bad that's a bad that's a bad that's a bad that's a bad that's that's a bad that's that's that's a bad that's a bad that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thiiia. thia. thia. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the thi. the the the thi. the the the the the the the that. the the that. the that. the thateea. thia. thi. thi. thi. thi. 't help you throw that guy in a cage. Right. Right. So you have to instead think that's a bad guy. That's a bad man. That's a bad guy. So I'm putting the bad guy in a cage to get the bad guy off the street. You have to think that way. Otherwise you couldn't do that job. But I think that there's something deeply corrupting for law about drug prohibition because they are enforcing a law that hurts people. Like you could be a police officer and solve violent crimes and genuinely be helping people. I mean, even like in New York City, if you get robbed, there's no resources available for that because they don't have time. Like if your apartment is robbed, they're not going to fingerprint your apartment and find the person that robbed you, they would just say sorry, that, that's that. T that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's that's th th th th th th th th th that that that that thate thate thate that that thate thate thate tho tho the police the police the police the police the police the police the police the police tho tho the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th. th. th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. You thi thi thi thi that, that, that, that, that. You that. You could that. You could thatea. You could thatea. You could their their their their their their that your apartment is robbed, they're not gonna fingerprint your apartment

Starting point is 01:11:45 and find the person that robbed you. They would just say, sorry, you know, that's that, we'll write up a report moving on. But part of that has to do with all of the resources that are wasted on these fake crimes. Like, there would be, I think that it would improve citizen police relationships so much, , like, and th'd be able to spend their time working on crimes that we all agree are bad for communities as opposed to like victim list

Starting point is 01:12:13 non-crimes like possessing a plant or whatever or growing a plant or selling a chemical or doing chemistry or whatever. So I think that it's, yeah, it's deeply, deeply corrupting and corrosive psychologically to law enforcement to have to enforce these laws that they either, if they get it, and I do know some cops that get it, and if they get it, it's immensely disturbing to them, to the point that they will want to leave their job. And if they don't get it, then they're living in a fantasy in order to live with themselves for doing something bad.

Starting point is 01:12:47 So it's not good either way. But not only are you doing that to the police department, but also kids, with the DARE program, we were on the DARE program. They they're all of their funding, like that's a major problem I have with the police union. You know, it's like, you know, are there bad cops? Of course, there's bad cops. There's bad everything.

Starting point is 01:13:12 There's bad pizza delivery guys. I mean, like everything's there's bad of. I mean, you don't corrupt a whole tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho that, tho that, tho-a, tho-a, that, the that, the tho-a, tho- tho- their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to to to to too. to. today. tipe. today, today, today, today, tha. too. too. tha. t one of the most powerful unions is the prison correctional officers union. And they don't want to see their funding going down. Because if you start releasing drug addicts, that's a lot of empty, empty, empty rooms in their prison hotels. That's a lot of labor that no one's going to do. Yeah, and that's a lot of, that was a big problem with Camille Harris.

Starting point is 01:13:47 She didn't want to release people because she said it would hurt the labor. So that's my biggest problem with law enforcement. It's like, I understand that. Because you know, yes, my mom's not bad person, she doesn't mean ill. Even that word thugs, th drugs, tho, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that's that's that's that's that's that's that, thi, tho, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. She's not bad person. She doesn't mean ill. Even that word, though, drugs is just, just, yeah, it's like bells and whistles. But when you refuse to allow progressive laws that the people want, which is the decriminalization, that's when I start having problems with a lot of stuff.

Starting point is 01:14:19 Now, you've done DMT. Have you done DMT? Have you done DMT? I have done DMT, yes. What did the metal elf say to you? Were they cool seeing you? Did they like you? Was it welcoming? I'm sorry to report. I've had no elf experiences. I mean, maybe, yeah, no elves. Again, very, very visually interesting phenomena. but no elves, for whatever, whatever reason.

Starting point is 01:14:49 They're there. Oh, go ahead. Hey, Hamilton. Your show is kind of an auteur project, I would say. I mean, you're at the center of it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you direct and write most of the episodes, is that right? Is that, it is? Okay. Yeah. Yes. I love that. How, how, as you've evolved and your views have evolved, how has the

Starting point is 01:15:11 show changed over, over the now, what, decade plus that you've been doing it? Is that right? Yeah, I mean, I never studied journalism. I never studied film production. So one thing that's changed is I learned to do it. You know, like I didn't know how to do these things when I started out. And I don't look at the stuff, especially the old, like I haven't looked at the things that I made when my early 20s since I made them. I can imagine I would consider them cringe worthy if I were to watch them.

Starting point is 01:15:47 I wouldn't do that now, maybe one day. And so I think, you know, and I became increasingly aware of the way people respond to things. That's the other, you know, you make something for the first time, you don't know anything about the way people respond. So for, you know, little things things things things things things things, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you know, I, I, I, you know, you, you, you, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, you, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you the time, and I remember I would, you know, I was honest about using riddlin, which I didn't think it was a big deal. Lots of people use riddlin or adderol. I didn't think it would be like, thi. I didn't th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. You thi. thi. thi. You thi. You thi. You thi. You the thi. You thi. You thi. You thi. You thi. You the the th. the th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the way the way the way the way the way the I had consumed some small therapeutic quantity of a drug, but it was a big people be like, oh my god he's gonna die, he's a drug addict, it's insane. It's like, okay, I mean, I don't know where you're from, but in most cities, there's a lot more than that happening among almost every young person, so if that's a huge deal to you, then I don't know. I guess it was, I, I the, I the, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people the the people the people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, the, the, people, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. th. thi thi, their their thi, I their their the, their theat, their theat, their theat, their their their theat, people their their theat, people is thi, people young person. So if that's a huge deal to you, then I don't know. I guess it was.

Starting point is 01:16:48 I guess the moral of the story is it was a huge deal to people in a way that I didn't expect, so much so that people are still talking about it today or it's like you're still talking about the time I took Ritalin once when I was 21, who cares? But, but, and that's a weird lesson. You know, if you're not doing things for public consumption, you just don't know how people are going to respond to things. You're making jokes with your friends that you think are funny with you and your friends, and then you present it to a large number of people and you realize, wow, that joke is a joke that no one else getsthat the beginning of the show. I experienced that the beginning

Starting point is 01:17:27 of the show. You know I would it's funny you say that because I was one of the things I was going to say is it seems you've become more aware of how the show might affect you know even policy you know and how people perceive these drugs it feels like or you or you know, these substances, I should say, because it seems like initially it was more of, it was more about your experience, is that safe to say, than it is now? I mean, now it seems like it's more of a study on subject. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, I think, well, yeah, certainly the early ones had more of an experiential emphasis, but it was also at that time, you know, like one of the things that I think made vice prominent early on was travel reporting of one kind or another.

Starting point is 01:18:17 So they, they, everything was very low budget, but there was a lot of appreciation for the interest of going somewhere unusual and speaking with local people. In a way that's actually not all that common, I'm kind of amazed by how little travel there is in most things that I see. You know, even I remember trying, like in 2018 I decided I wasn't going to make my show anymore and and I was sort of pitching various projects to Netflix and you know maybe they were just saying this because they weren't interested but they would say things like oh no that's an

Starting point is 01:18:57 Africa, no no we can't like algorithmically speaking we're not doing Africa. What? They don't got the money. Wow. That's so interesting. Wow. By the way, please tell Vice to stop burying the show. I mean, your show's literally the last show in the list for some reason. It's impossible to find it.

Starting point is 01:19:15 Oh yeah. I mean, I mean, yeah, it's a mess. And when people like, but the other, but, the other, the other, the other, the other, the other, the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to. to, to, to, to, to, to. to, to, to, to. to, to, to, to, to, to. to, to. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, to. to. to. to. to. to. to. too. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to, please, please, complain about vice all day. It's not, you know, whatever. It's not interesting, I don't think. But at the end of the day, it's just a distribution company. They don't make anything. So when people say like, why did, like, vice is this way, vice isn't anything. Vice is a logo. And so, you know, that the people that are making things are tired of it, and very few of them are still there anymore.

Starting point is 01:19:48 They've lost virtually every single person. It happens to be the case that my show was controver- like I said at the beginning that it's very easy to make things about drugs. Yeah. It's easy to make things about drugs. Like Netflix has lots of drug-related things. But for whatever reason, the kind of stuff that I do has been hard. I will acknowledge that. And I have not had a lot of success. Maybe it's because I get off a little bit on doing things that I know are edgy, or I know are pushing, towing the line a little

Starting point is 01:20:21 bit. But I feel like that's part of what one should should should should should should should should should should should should should should should should should should should should should should should should should should that's that's that's that's that's that's to be to be to be thi to thi thi to thi thi the to to to be to be to be to be toowing the line a little bit, but that's, I feel like that's part of what one should do artistically is try to figure out what the line is and get as close to it as you possibly can to exercise your own freedom because you can synthesize a psychoactive drug in a country where it's legal. So why not show that you can do that? Why live in fear of how it might be bad? Why not try to do it? And so that, that, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. tho, tho, tho, thi. thi. tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the t, t, t, t, t, tow, tow, tow, tow, tow, tow, tow, towa, towa, towa, towa, towa, towa, towa, towa.a. towa. towa. towa. towa, towa, bad? Why not try to do it? And so that, but most people would prefer not to do that. If you could just, you know, do something a little safer, why not do that? So I have had difficulty and, you know, as much as I could complain about vice, the bottom line is they did give me money to make this weird thing. And it was, it was, it was, it. It was, it. It was, it. It was. It was good thiiiiiiiiiii. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It. It. It. It. It was. It. It. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was, it was, you know, it was good while it lasted.

Starting point is 01:21:07 I'm done with it, but it was, it was a, I don't think I could have made it elsewhere. You know, I worked for National Geographic on a number of projects and it was far, far, far, far worse there. No comparison. I mean, they really interfered. Sorry. So, are you, is this is the last season. Yeah, any more? No, I don't think there's going to be. I mean, I'll do things in the future of, you know, I have, like I said, I have a podcast. I'll continue writing.

Starting point is 01:21:34 I'll probably make something again if someone gives me money to do it. But I'm just going to do, like a plan the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the moment is just to do full-time chemistry from for the foreseeable future. Because there's now a lot of resources available to do scientific research that weren't available in the past because of the pharmaceutical interest in psychedelics that is now widespread. There's publicly traded psychedelic pharmaceutical companies right now on the stock market. Yep, yep, yep, a lot of people thought. Now was there anything that got cut that you really wished could have been in? And if later on, will we ever get to see that, where it's like, okay, this is the uncut version, you know, vice, let me release this?

Starting point is 01:22:15 Is there anything where you're like, man, why would you let me put the end? No? And you're like, okay, fine, but I'm going to hold on to hold on to hold on to hold on to hold on to hold on to hold on to hold on to hold on to hold on to hold on to hold on to hold on to hold on to hold on to it later. Yeah, I mean, there are things that I like, again, maybe because of this slightly edgy tendency that I have where, you know, I think animal sacrifice is really interesting. I just do- I did not expect that. If you give me a million different categories I could have picked up, I would never have an animal sacrifice, but okay, listening. So, and I think, unless you are a vegan, which I am not. I, I, I to to to to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th. th. thi. thi. thi, thi, the, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, to, to, to. I, to. I, to. I, to. I, to. I, to. I, the the they. they. the the the the to, they. to, to. to, to. to. to. toe. toe. toe. toe. toea. toea. toea. tell, tell, toe. the. t vegan, which I am not, I don't know if anyone here is, no, but yeah, so unless you are a vegan, I think you have no right to tell people they can't show animal sacrifice.

Starting point is 01:22:57 Like, the idea of someone that eats meat saying that religious animal sacrifice is unacceptable. And in many of these instances, they eat the meat after they're done with the sacrifice anyway. They're not wasting it. They're not throwing it in a trash can. So I think that that is part of these traditions. And it annoys me to no end. And there was one, and I love animals.

Starting point is 01:23:20 I'm not into hurting animals, but I also am a lover of visually interesting things. And there was one shot of a chicken being decapitated that was like a million dollar. Like I don't think anyone with all of the resources in Hollywood could have captured a chicken sacrifice as cinematically as this was captured. And it had to be cut. That was like, you know, again, it makes me, it makes me sound like a twisted, I'm not,

Starting point is 01:23:49 I don't get off on cruelty to animals, I really don't, but just in terms of the visually amazing aspect of this religious chicken sacrifice, it was, it was, I couldn't believe the shot as we were getting it So that there's that you know there's some But with the chemistry I was able to get away with essentially everything that I wanted to do because there was no one that knew what I was doing That was the other wonderful thing about. That's what's up. So we wrap it up. Is there any, you guys are, you guys love the show. You know, I just got hip to it, I've been watching it.

Starting point is 01:24:33 But is there any episode that stuck out to you guys that you really loved that you had a question about or I got two more questions. What are we, Johnny or X, D, anything? You know, the only other thing I have th. th. th. th. Two more questions, we wrap it up. Johnny or XG, anything? You know, the only other thing I have on my list here is, I'm curious what you're, personally how you felt about the people that assigned sort of spiritual value to naturally occurring 5MEO, DMT versus synthetic synthesized 5MEO sources. How did you, because, I mean, you found yourself at odds with them at the conclusion

Starting point is 01:25:09 of that episode this season. And I'm curious, I mean, do you, do you respect those people in their beliefs? I mean, how can, I mean, they are an impediment to progress when you agree. Explain what do you what to happen in the episode, Johnny for those who might not see it. Well, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the, how the, how the the the the the the the the the th th th. tho, how tho, how thi. tho, how tho, how tho, how tho, how tho, how tho, tho, tho, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. the. the. the. I the. I'm, how, how today, how, how the. I'm today, how the. the. the. I the. the. I to happen in the episode, Johnny, for those who might not see it. It's the 5 MEO DMT producing toad. And these people who, they harvest the venom from these toads that has the psychoactive substance. And in doing so, they're killing it all. They often harm the toad. And I mean, it's arguable that you're harming any animal that you have to come come the like that, in that intimate way where they grab it and you know squeeze the nodules. And there it's possible to synthesize though the same substance and chemically identical,

Starting point is 01:25:55 correct me if I'm wrong, Hamilton. But the people who are, you know, have spent decades now collecting, decades now collecting and harvesting this venom, they believe that it has some spiritual value actually getting it from a natural source, Sam. Yeah, I'm just curious, sort of your, you're personally, how you, how you found that. Yes, yeah, and I know I'm going to sound like a horrible hypocrite right now by, I know I just probably, I will regret having just said what I said about the animal sacrifice because this is the sort of thing that that the people tend to really get up in arms about you know the people that care about that are just militant in a way that I don't

Starting point is 01:26:40 but that's what I sense but that is part of a religious ritual, and it is, in my opinion, justified as part of the tradition of that culture. The consumption or smoking of 5MODD-DMT containing Toad Venom is new. This is something that was discovered by a guy in Texas in the 1980s, a guy named Ken Nelson. There is no culture that has been doing that for generations. It is something that we created, American people created. We have no reason to unnecessarily hurt animals. There's no real justification.

Starting point is 01:27:22 And it's becoming very popular. I mean, you have Mike Tyson talking about it. You have Diplo wearing like a Bufuil various suit to award ceremonies. You have all these different celebrities that are having life-changing experiences with 5MEODMT, and they're all getting it from this toad. And the toad is endangered. So, I mean, this is like, there's an example that I that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that thiiii. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their is a their is a their is a their is a thi, their is a thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. is thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, getting it from this toad. And the toad is endangered.

Starting point is 01:27:45 So, I mean, this is like, there's an example that I give in the episode of this thing called the scrotum frog of Lake Tidicaca. This is a species that does nothing. There is no, it's like rhinoceros horn. There is no medical value whatsoever in this particular frog. And yet it is being hunted to extinction

Starting point is 01:28:08 just because of basically a trend, because people think, why not put it in this drink called Rana imaca? So when you then compare that to a organism that is producing a chemical that somewhat reliably produces a religious experience in users, a life-changing, totally amazing experience. You can just imagine where this is heading. You know, it's not going to be good for that toad.

Starting point is 01:28:35 It's going to be bad for it. And so I think that it's extremely important to figure out a way to do it sustainably as soon as possible before it's too late. And these things happen quickly, you know, it could be a couple years and then we realize, whoa, we went way overboard with the harvesting of that toad venom. Now they're extinct in the wild. I mean, that kind of thing happens.

Starting point is 01:28:58 So that's why I was so, you know, and it's not comparable to a chicken sacrifice, to be clear. Well, there's a bazillion chickens. Yes, there are bazillion chickens. We found a way to grow them very, yes, a lot. I see your love for chemistry. I'm wondering, do you think the education system makes it not cool? Because I mean, I'm pretty sure you've hooked people onto chemistry while watching this. I mean, if I was in high school and I saw your documentary and I was like, dude, how do I make this in a couple years?

Starting point is 01:29:27 Because I mean, you're surely showing you. Have you turned anybody on? Do you think the education system tries to show chemistry down? Because I mean, in high school it's boring. I mean, maybe I've had a bad teacher. Could be that, but do you have a feeling a feeling a feeling a feeling, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, th. Because, th. Because, th. Because, th. Because, th. Because, thi, thi, you, thi, thi, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you, you, you, you, you're, you're, you, you, you, you, you you you, you, you you you you, you, you you, you, you, you, you, you, the they. they, I, I, I, I, I, I they. You, I, I they. You're showing, I they. You're showing, I's show show show, I'm show, I'm s show, I'm s surely showing, to show, th. thr, to show show show show show, to show, thr, to show show show, they. to show, they. they. You're showing, they. Yeah, oh yeah, it borders on me thinking that it's a conspiracy. That it's so the way, how boring people make it relative to how interesting it is. I mean, it's un- and then you compare that to astrophysics, which is, I think, actually quite boring, relative to the way that it's portrayed culturally. Like, it's amazing to me that we have so little interest in chemistry, considering how important it is, how it is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is it is is it is it is it is. it is. It is. It is. It is the the is the is the the is the way it is, how it is, how it is, how it is the way. It is the way. It is the way. It is so the way. How it is, how it is so the way. How the way, how the way, how the way, how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how how it is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is thi is thi is thi is in it is thi is thi is thi is, it's amazing to me that we have so little interest in chemistry considering how important it is and so much interest in astrophysics,

Starting point is 01:30:11 considering how unimportant it is to our daily lives. But, yeah, so yeah, I think that, you know, the education system is just done a really, really bad job and making chemistry interesting to people. Maybe it's because, like, at the time in the 1950s 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, to, to, to, to, to, to to to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the chemistry, the chemistry the chemistry, the chemistry, the chemistry, the chemistry, the chemistry, the chemistry, the chemistry, the chemistry, the chemistry, the chemistry, their their their their their their their their the, the, their the, toe, toe, toe, to cii job at making chemistry interesting to people. Maybe it's because, like, at the time in the 1950s, when their, you know, chemistry kits were given to children and it wasn't unusual for nerdy children to have a chemistry lab in their home, that was also a time when a lot of the chemistry industry was in the United States. Now the industry is almost entirely in China, and maybe people don't even see it as like a useful career to encourage young people to be interested.

Starting point is 01:30:50 I don't know why. You know, you could explain it a million different ways. Maybe it has to do with fear of terrorism. Maybe it has to do with the war on drugs. Maybe it has to do with the loss of American industry. There's, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, there, the loss, the loss, the loss, the loss, the loss, the loss, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to to to to to to thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thi, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus thus, thus, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the thus thus thus thusususus thus thusus thususus thusus thus thusususus to to to to to to to to thi, to to different ways to explain how this happened, but it's really not good, because chemistry is the study of matter. Like, it's not just synthesis. So if you know a little bit about chemistry, you'll know a little bit about everything in the world.

Starting point is 01:31:17 So it's like very useful knowledge. And just to get back to that question that you asked before that I didn't answer about the difference between the synthetic and the toad, you know, I think one thing that a lot of people misunderstood from that episode is they thought I was saying there is no difference. I'm not saying there is no difference. I'm saying that the difference is a psychological difference and we have almost no appreciation for psychology either. We tend to immediately go to the spiritual when things can be adequately described psychologically without the need to invoke the supernatural. Set and setting, right? I mean, yep. Yeah, so it's it's like if I say, hey, you know, I've got this venom for you, it came from a

Starting point is 01:31:57 sacred toad that was from the sacred garden that was cultivated by a yaki elder for generations. And this toad is an elder toad. It's 15 years old and it was underground for nine months, the same period of human gestation. And you know, this is the, this is a religious experience. And then you say, OK, here's 5MADMT. It came from a nameless chemist in a nameless laboratory in China. You know, we have all these negative associations with China culturally.

Starting point is 01:32:34 There's like, like, fear of Chinese people is totally normalized in our culture. Like, it makes sense that people have different experiences. But that can be explained psychologically And that's all I'm saying is that I'm not saying no one is having a different experience I'm saying the differences are psychologically mediated not chemically or pharmacologically Mediate is that the same thing with crystal structures or polymorph formation on LSD where people think it's like? Damn it actually going hard. Yeah, because some people will tell you like, oh, this was crystallized. This way should hit different.

Starting point is 01:33:06 But it's just a crystal structure. You think it's still like, you think it's placed in setting? Yeah, that's a great question. That's another example, I think, of our total lack of appreciation for psychology. And this bizarre tendency that we have to use chemistry is extremely useful as an explanatory science, but that is one place where it is being misused, because you're really going to say it was a crystal polymorph that is the difference when most of these people have no idea what polymorph it is, when you could explain it psychologically so much more easily. I mean, if you did a giant

Starting point is 01:33:43 controlled study with different LSD polymorphs, and you know, you had 100 participants trying each polymorph several times and you were able to, you know, there conceivably could be a difference. Maybe one is dissolves more readily, and the faster it dissolves, the faster the onset of the experience, and therefore the more jarring the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the psychological the faster it dissolves, the faster the onset of the experience, and therefore the more jarring

Starting point is 01:34:07 the psychological transition, therefore the more anxiety the person experiences, like something like that is conceivable, but there's no evidence for it. And so it's far more easy to assume that this is just a psychological effect, that the placebo effect also applies to active compounds, not just inactive compounds, that the expectations that we have are part of the experience that's set-in-setting. All right, well, what a wonderful episode. Final question, what is after all of this traveling and learning about this? Who, what is your favorite drug? Can daddy say what is your favorite drug? Can Daddy say what his favorite drug is?

Starting point is 01:34:48 You know, favorite, I'm not even trying to be annoying or difficult by by resisting the question. I genuinely, it's like favorite song, favorite, if you have a lot of experience with something, then you recognize that there are different foods that are appropriate for different occasions, different songs that are appropriate for different occasions. You know, there's a, you might have a favorite song, you might have a favorite song to play at a party.

Starting point is 01:35:15 You might have different types of songs. So, you know, I don't think that there is a single drug that I would point to. If I had to say one drug, I think both five EMIODMT and Iboga or Ibogaine have a lot of potential to help people. And I think that an appreciation of them in our culture could they could potentially make the world a better place, which is big. I mean, that's that's the goal. So, you know, a drug that can help people who are suffering from substance abuse disorders, that's huge. That's extremely important. So I do think that that's something that I hope will be more thoroughly investigated

Starting point is 01:35:56 in the coming years because we need something like that. Where can people find that your vice show? Is it only on vice right now? Is it on like any of these other streaming networks or anything like that? Oh, they don't, you know, I get so many messages from people asking me where to watch. It depends on what country you're in. It depends on a a million different things. It's on a cable channel called Vice TV. I don't have a TV. I don't have a TV. I can't watch it on TV. I don't how people do. I guess if you have certain cable providers, you can watch it on cable. I would just watch it on Amazon that seems to be the easiest if you're in the United States or on iTunes. People have also been ripping it and putting it on YouTube, which I'm very happy to see because I just want people to watch it. But the only issue is that they keep like the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their to keep to keep to keep their. to keep to keep to keep to keep to keep to keep to watch. I'm to watch. I'm just to watch. I to watch. I'm just to watch. I'm just, I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I to watch it, I to watch it, I to watch it, I to watch it, I to watch. I to watch. I to watch. I to watch. I to watch. I to watch. I to watch. I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I'm just they. they. the the they. they. the the the t the today. th. the the tttttoday. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I issue is that they keep like cutting parts of it out. So for that reason I would say try to find like a version that is the full piece.

Starting point is 01:36:48 What is that to circumvent the copyright? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, you know, that's the only problem. And Hulu Live. It might be on Hulu at some point. I don't know when. uh... sling maybe uh... but yeah i tunes and amazon seems to be the major ones uh... the major

Starting point is 01:37:06 ways to watch it or just like try toward or whatever you want just watch it and try to get a good version of it i hope what's the feed on patron called what's your channel there yeah it's patron dot com slash hammomorras and you can listen to my podcast there and one final thing is this Pam this guy that I was talking about over the podcast Ken Nelson he had published this book it's been out of print since the early 80s and I republished it with a new section that tells the story of his discovery of psychedelic toadvenum and it also tells it has a guide to the sustainable production of five emeo DMT synthetically so if you happen to live in a country like Canada or

Starting point is 01:37:49 Mexico where the synthesis is not explicitly illegal, maybe you could use that guide. If not, it's interesting, I think, and you can find that at W.W.W.W. Psychedelic Toad of the Sonoran Desert. Com. Okay, write that down. It's a hell of a URL. And all the money goes to charity. All the, it's all goes to Parkinson's disease as well.

Starting point is 01:38:09 And it's now raised like $130,000 for the Michael J. Fox Foundation. So it's a, it's a cool book and it's a charitable cause as well. I will buy one and I'm sure the listeners to listen the show the show the show the show the show the Swarm, they will do it as well. Hamilton Morris, thank you so much for coming on man. This was, I had high expectations and you surpassed them. So thank you for being forgiving of the opening. And I'm fine with it. I'm totally okay. And it was a pleasure talking to you. Thanks for having me. Anytime. Don't hang up real quick. I just want to talk to you after. But thank you. Thank you guys. Xavier Guerrero. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. to. to. to. to. to. to. to talk to you after but thank you guys for tunin thank you Johnny thank you Xavier Guerrero thank you Swarman we'll talk to you guys soon take care to go deep home boy Eric open your mind drink from the fountain of knowledge there's lizard people everywhere

Starting point is 01:38:59 that's some interdimensional shit. Wake up, Aaron! This is only the beginning. There, you just move my mind. Tim foil hack.

Tin Foil Hat With Sam Tripoli - #425: Hamilton's Pharmacopeia with Hamilton Morris

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.