Tin Foil Hat With Sam Tripoli - #560: The Chaos Of The CIA And The Charles Mason Murders with Tom O'Neill

Starting point is 00:00:00 Timfoil Hat. Oh, what the fuck are you guys even talking about? Global controls will have to be imposed, and a world governing body will be created to enforce them. Welcome to Tinfoil Half. We go deep, home boy. Eric, open your mic. Drink from the fountain of knowledge. There's lizard people everywhere. Aaron, open your mind.

Starting point is 00:00:28 Drink from the fountain of knowledge. There's lizard people everywhere. That's some interdimensional idea. Wake up, Aaron. This is only the beginning. There, you just blew my mind. Good morning, swarm and welcome to Tim4. Good morning, Swarm and welcome to Timforth. You know what I'm here to do?

Starting point is 00:00:51 I am here to do? Apparently I'm Mushmouth Tripoli everybody. Join me as always, Xavier Greer and Jay-Nice, Johnny Woodard. How are you guys? You're doing good. Great show today, dude. This book I always thought it was like the the ultimate red pill you know it's like a real introduction to if

Starting point is 00:01:10 you if you're somebody you want to kind of ease somebody into this to this. Yeah so let's tell today we have Tom O'Neill who wrote the book Chaos I know a lot you guys might have heard my Rogin but I've been wanting to do this episode for a very to th..... th. the th. the th. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. the the the th. I. I. I. I. I. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. the the th. th. th. th. th. th. I. I. I. I the the the th. I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. toda. today. today. today. today. today. tod we finally got to make a happen after having internet problems and all that stuff. I'm sure the guy who wrote stuff about the CIA and the podcast that talks about the CIA could have internet problems every once in a while. And it's a really interesting book and I hope you guys go check it out if you didn't get it when he was on Rogan show but it is a really interesting book because there's so many parallels to what's been happening the last, I don't know, 20 years in the United States man. I mean, the book came out in 2019 but I mean, I like the last two years of just all

Starting point is 00:01:59 the chaos going on. This is where it kind of all started to evolve and I think it's a wonderful conversation. And you know if I finished the book, you know it's a good book because I have a monkey that plays symbols in my head and he just like it gets real quick to clank clang clang and I was able to get through this book very quickly because it is such a great read. And if you guys want to listen to his audio book just click the link below and rock and roll because it's a great book. It's a great book. I prefer reading but if you want to listen to it you're for free. For free you can and yeah that's that. Great things are going on here. Great things are going on big weekend for the Timfall Hott comedy tour we are in Aurora so if you th the th th th th the th th th th th th their th th th th th their th th th their th you th you their th you th you th you th. th. th you're in th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the their their their their their their their their their their their thi. thi. thi. thi' cccclic. thi. thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. Just just click thi. Just click thi things are going on. Big weekend for the Timfoll Hat comedy tour. We are in Aurora. So if you're in the Chicago area,

Starting point is 00:02:49 come get weird with us. Somebody said it's not that close but it is what it is. Okay, so we're in Chicago. This is as close I'm gonna get to Chicago is Aurora, Illinois. First show, almost sold out. their s some tickets for Swarm Tank that's where we enter we answer your questions now float fest is coming according to the thing you go to float fest for free free there's some free tickets but there's also VIP tickets so go check it out it's going to be it's the second annual float fest Eddie Bravo Xavier Gr Guerrero, myself, Tino Sanchez, Reed Becker, all gonna be there and then May 4th,

Starting point is 00:03:29 go check out Comedy Chaos Live at the Comedy Store. Grab your tickets now, we're gonna have a, we're gonna have one or two more comics. Should be a banger, as always, and that's that. Laguna Nigel, May 11th. Anything else? Would you guys have any live shows now, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thia, too, too, too, too, th, th, to too, too, too, too, too, to be, to be, to be, to be, too, too, th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. And, th. And, thi. And, thi. And, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. And, too. Wea. Wea. Wea, too, too, tha, thauna Nigel, May 11th. Anything else? Would you guys have any live shows coming up? No, no live shows is now, but dude, I'm gonna be there May 4th until your lineup is crazy. It's gonna be crazy.

Starting point is 00:03:54 And it's only getting better. So buy your tickets now, it will sell out. No, I'm very excited about it. And broken sim? Yeah, we were going to record to to to There's going to be a new one on YouTube too. Oh, check it all out. Actually, for anybody who wants to know, tomorrow, live, we don't smoke the same from 7 to 9 we have Hibler on.

Starting point is 00:04:13 Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's just dropped. We make an appearance in that. What's that we have. We're in it? That's what somebody said. They said I enjoyed your cameo. Mom, I'm in a movie! Yeah, so he's gonna be there tomorrow. If you got any flowers questions, we super chat to go in there and shoot him out. So that's that's go checked it out. I'll include the link to Hibler's new movie. That's how much I love. Tom Rockfin. Roch Finn. Tom Rockfin. the. the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tho. tho. tho. thoooooooooooooooo. the. the. thoooo. the. the tho. th. th Tim Follhett t-shirts. New, I know you guys are sending me t-shirts. I'm very specific, please don't get offended if I don't use your shirt.

Starting point is 00:04:50 I'm very specific on what I want on the t-shirt, okay? So keep sending them, if we use them, I'll pay you 100 bucks, send them to contact Sam Tripp or whatever is on the website or Sam Tripoli live at Gmail. Go check that out. If you want to support the show, great way to get shirts is TimFolhat T-shirts.com. Click, you can put that in or you can click the link at Sam Tripoli.com. Sam Triply has everything you need. Tickets, free shows.

Starting point is 00:05:20 If you want to see some free shows, I have a bunch of audio you can get for free. Timful Haap. Broken Sim, which is basically, I just go around LA and my life and look for danger and try not to die so you have something to hear about. It's basically the taxi driver of this reality. We call it the sports center of the broken simulation. Cash Daddy's Timfall, Broken, excuse me, Cash Daddy's Financial Show, Punch Drunk is a sports show,

Starting point is 00:05:48 and then Union the unwanted just dropped the new one about food and growing your own food. And then from the vault of Conspiracy Social Club and Zero, my spiritual podcast, go check it out, man. I'm telling you, these shows are really important and I think you should go check it out. We have some premium content for you at Rockfin, ROKFIN, dot com, just go check it out. That's ROKFIN.com. Ten dollars gets you everybody on the website. You can watch all of this content. Is the Netflix of content creating premium content?

Starting point is 00:06:27 Go check it out. Today's show is brought to buy our friends at Athletic Greens. Okay, listen, I take Athletic Greens because I love the energy, the vitamin and the boom I get every morning, okay, with one delicious scoop of athletic greens, you're absorbing 75 quality vitamins, minerals, whole food source, superfoods, probiotics and epigens to help you start your day right, okay, the special blend of ingredients

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Starting point is 00:08:07 Pick up a daily nutritional insurance. Is there anything else guys? Is there anything else? Nah. Hibler's guy's new show on there his new movie on there please go check it out. Guys enjoy this episode with Tom O'Neill and about his book chaos about the Charlesthe Charles Manson Murders and everything to let up to that and the role of the CIA. And it's a wonderful book. Check it out. Enjoy the Intrity. We go deep home, boy.

Starting point is 00:08:32 Here, open your mind. Drink, drink, fun, their drink. Guys, okay, let's get into it. Super excited, against all odds, this episode happens, we're very excited to have them on. This has been one of my dream episodes. I've been wanting to do this for a while, and you know, the podcasting God's finally relented and let it happen. I'm very excited.

Starting point is 00:08:57 He has written one of the best books out there. And I loved it's a thick book and I got through all of it and it was great. The book is called Chaos. Charles Manson, the CIA and the secret history of the 60s. Please welcome to the show Tom O'Neill. Tom, how are you? Pretty good now that I can hear you crystal clear it's great. Thank you so much for joining us and thank you so much for putting up with our our tech difficulties and you know I'm glad this is finally happening and I love your book so much Tom. Thank you. Thanks. Tom real quick is there any websites or anything social media you'd like to push so that our the listeners

Starting point is 00:09:44 can find you. Yeah yeah I kind of compile a lot of documents, photos and audio and video stuff related to the book on Instagram and Facebook. I always forget the name of the Instagram. I think it's called Chaos, Manson or Chaos the book. As you can see I'm not the best with IT shit. Yeah, yeah. It's totally fine. It's, the most of it's called Chaos, Manson, or Chaos, the book. As you can see, I'm not the best with IT shit. Yeah, yeah, it's totally fine. It's most of it's toxic anyway. It's called, it's called, yeah, if you just go to Instagram, it's called Chaos Charles Manson, that's one word.

Starting point is 00:10:16 This is a great book. It was given to me by my friend. He bought it for me, Tino Sanchez, and he's like, you gotta read this book. And man, it is a well-written of, you know, I mean, deep dive into a time of change in the United States. And you know, we just lost Kennedy. And here we start to see like thisthis this really chaotic time in America. I mean giant leaders being assassinated, you know, Cyops on Cyops on Cyops and you know the book itself it was like it took a miracle to get done kind of you know based on what we

Starting point is 00:11:03 read and just you kind of moved forward even when the powers of be kind of wanted to not do it, right? Is that true? Can you tell us how the book came to be? There were lots and lots of obstacles from lawsuits to kind of physical and verbal threats and there were many many times I never thought I was going to be able to finish, but everything kind of fell together. And around 2017, I got a collaborator who was fantastic. And once we got away from a publisher who was suing us, the first one sued me for, I guess they wanted the book and they got impatient. And there were just so many, so many problems.

Starting point is 00:11:45 So some days I still can't believe it ever did come out, but it's out there now and pretty happy with it. So I mean, you know, the Charles Manson murders shock the world. Here we are again. I don't know how deep you go into some conspiracies in that. But, you know, we had this kind conspiracies and that, but you know we had this kind of push and this like you know this hippie culture that was getting really big and everyone was getting into free love and we saw a lot of this anti-war movement going on and then suddenly we have these you know Charles Manson murders and bam suddenly hippies are scary.

Starting point is 00:12:26 Hippies joining the anti-war movement could get you in trouble. What is your feeling about that whole time? Well, I was, when I was a kid, I was 10 pretty much at the height of the 60s, 69, and I really wanted to be a part of it, but I was in a suburb, I couldn't get any more white middle class suburb of Philadelphia. And I saw it through rosy lens, lenses that a lot of people see it through. It was all just peace and love and, you know, trippy colors and great music and stuff. It wasn't until I began this book in 1999, so about 30 years after the events,

Starting point is 00:13:08 that I realized it was a much deeper kind of undercurrent of, you know, violence and real evil, real malice. And at first, you know, when I began the book, I thought it was just, you know, drugs impacting this culture and screwing with people's heads. But then I eventually, and this is where the book got crazy, was kind of followed a crumb trail that led me to these intelligence groups from our own federal government that were infiltrating the 60s kind of anti-war left-wing movement and provoking them to commit acts of violence for their various reasons. And I wasn't the one that discovered this. You know, this was all found out

Starting point is 00:13:57 first in about 1973 or 74. One of the programs was exposed. It was called Co-Intell Pro. It was an FBI secret operation to pretty much go after, again, anti-war movement, black panthers, black radicals, and set them up to commit crimes to give law enforcement a reason to arrest them, but also to commit crimes that would allow law enforcement to engage in a gun battles with them and also to pit rival groups against each other. The files for this operation were obtained by a group in 73-74. They robbed the archive of the FBI, one of the off-base, off-campus archives. So Co-Intel Pro was exposed in 74. I mean, there were public records of congressional hearings

Starting point is 00:14:53 into it. Then there were two other programs that were discovered a year or two later. One was called Chaos, which was run almost identically to Co-Intel Pro using agent provocateurs except they were CIA agents instead of FBI agents. And again they would take informants either from within the groups, people who were released from prison just to infiltrate the groups or even agents who would disguise themselves depending on the group. You know if it's left-ring anti-war group, they might disguise themselves as long-haired hippies.

Starting point is 00:15:25 If they were, sorry, I just got to get rid of this one thing. If they were a black militant group, then they would have black agents or black informants criminals provoke and to all kinds of things. And the third, the third agency was called, or the third kind of operation was called Operation MK Ultra, which was different but also blended in. And MK Ultra was begun much earlier in 1948, 49 to begin as Artichoke Bluebird and then involved into what was called MK Ultra in 5253. And that was a brainwashing program where citizens of the United States were tested or being experimented with without their knowledge using all kinds of things, principally LSD and other drugs to try to create people who, the ultimate objective was to create programmed

Starting point is 00:16:19 assassins. So all of this stuff kind of came together in this pot, in 1967, Hadeshbury District at the same time that a guy named Charlie Manson, who was then 32 years old and pretty illiterate and pretty kind of a small time calm, who had spent about half of his life at that point in federal reformatory schools as a kid and then in federal prisons as you know a felon who committed small-time crimes he emerged into all this and then within about three or four months transformed into this monster that we all heard about or found out about in 1969 after a series of murders have been committed here

Starting point is 00:17:05 in Los Angeles that were just terrific. So I try to weave all these threads together in this book and like you said, it's a deep dive and it took a hell of a long time. And people read the book, they find out why, because it's a whole lot of information to try to parse and figure out what's important and what isn't is is is is is is is.aaaauuuiiiiiiuia..a. And. And. And tha. And thiiia. And thi. And, thi. And, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. tho. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. So, thi. So, I I I I, thi. So, I I I I. So, I I. So, I I I. So, I I. So, I I I. So, I I I I. So, I I. So, I I. And I I I. And I. And I I's thi. And I's thi. And I's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. And, I'm thooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomome. And I'm try. And parse and figure out what's important and what isn't. But that's kind of in a nutshell, I hope an answer to your question. It was a great answer. And it is a great book. And you know, I have ADD or whatever, it's like, a man, you just find yourself just flying

Starting point is 00:17:40 through this book. It keeps you, it captures your imagination. And it's a great read. And anybody, I'm teling, I'm th, I'm th. I'm th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that, I'm th. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's a that's a that's kind that's kind that's kind, I, I'm that's kind, in a that's kind, in a that's kind, in a that's that's that's the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. that's a the. the. the. th. th. It it captures your imagination and it's a great read and anybody I'm telling you if you love this show it just fits right into exactly what you're looking into and you know again I have my own beliefs about you know we see like end of World War II we see you know us the CIA make big changes we see you know a lot of stuff going on with Nazis thaties you, you know, the CIA make big changes. We see, you know, a lot of stuff going on with Nazis being brought over here. We have a change of from the OSS to the CIA

Starting point is 00:18:14 and what that involves and the mind games that they brought, brainwashing and all that stuff. And we start to see the growth of the CIA. And it's kind of creating these agent provocateurs, agents of chaos that cause problems that then the population manifests into asking to be saved from it. You cause a problem, you're the solution, and we see that happening a lot now and now it almost happens all the time and people are like yeah I mean we see now with the governor in

Starting point is 00:18:55 Michigan, the FBI, out of the 15 guys there, 13 of them were for agent provocateurs with with the FBI catching and paying for flights, hotels and food. I mean, the that, and the threat. I mean, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and we that, and we that, and we that, and we that, and we that, and we that, and we see, and we see that, and we see that, and we see that, and we see that, and we see that, and that, that, that, that, that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th. that, th. th. th. th. th. that, th. th. th. thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, that, that, that, that that that that that that that that that that that that that thatthem were agent provocateurs with the FBI catching and paying for flights, hotels and food. I mean like, it's like there's a paper trail. And so, but here it is that this is kind of the beginning of it. And so we, you know, and I want to get into the case, you know, we had, we had, we had, you know, just lay Maxwell trial and people just watching this prosecution almost throw the fight, where people were like, she's gonna get off, but she's so guilty, it was almost impossible to make that happen. But, you know, the Charles Manson trial is kind of different,

Starting point is 00:19:44 and we're seeing pushing up narratives that, or the exclusion of evidence that would maybe paint a different picture and what that involved. So would you like to get into that, Tom? Yeah, I mean, I guess the easiest way to communicate that without losing your audience is to tell how I kind of got basically skeptical first of what the historic narrative of this case was, of the Charles Manson case was, and how it kind of then exploded into these other areas. And again, so for people who were too young to know or aren't familiar with the Manson story after Manson was released in 67 in San Francisco he formed this harem of mostly young women

Starting point is 00:20:36 sorry no sorry about that someone actually hit a barn go on sorry okay yeah so he he formed this kind of group of young women in 67, who within about three or four months had become completely brainwashed and submissive to him. And they would follow him around, always walking behind him. They wouldn't speak unless he gave them permission to speak. They washed him. They had sex with him. They did whatever he said.

Starting point is 00:21:04 The end of 67, early 68, they migrated from San Francisco down to Los Angeles and basically lived in a series of places where they were isolated and cut off from the rest of the world, most prominently at a place called the Spawn Ranch, which was deep in the valley, San Fernando Valley, about 40-minute drive from downtown or from Los Angeles. And there, the group kind of grew and grew to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their the the the the the the their their their their their their their... Weaiciciciciciaiciaiciaiciaiciaiciciciciciaicicica. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. Wea.a.a.a.a.a.a. Wea.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. theea.a. their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their the the the the the the valley, San Fernando Valley, about 40 minute drive from downtown, or from Los Angeles. And there the group kind of grew and grew to include some men that were about 30 or 40 people who by 1969, the summer of 69, a bunch of them were dispatched by Manson to the home of Sharon Tate. They, the officially narrative is they didn't know who lived in Sharon Tate's house and at the top of Beverly Hills. It was just chosen by Manson because it represented two things.

Starting point is 00:21:54 It represented the Hollywood elite, which Manson felt had rejected him. He had wanted to be a musician. It also represented the music industry and Terry Melcher, who was a record producer, who had known Manson and then not recorded him as he had promised. And again, that's the official version. Anyway, these five followers of Manson went up to the house on August 8, 1969 around midnight and slaughtered Sharon Tate, who was eight and a half months pregnant, actress, wife or Roman Polansky, the film director who was in London at the time, scutting locations for a movie, and four house guests. And then

Starting point is 00:22:34 the next night, similarly savage murders took place of a couple in the cross-town in a neighborhood called Los Feles, Lenno and Rosemary Le Bianca, and the murders weretown neighborhood called Los Felis, Lenno, and Rosemary Leban, the Pianca. And they were, the murders were unsolved until December of that year. So about three, four months when the Manson family, who had been picked up in Death Valley, which is about six, seven hours from Los Angeles, where they had hold up in this remote kind of mountain top, abandoned ranch called the Barker Ranch. And they were picked up then on auto theft charges, but within a month or two, the police

Starting point is 00:23:14 put together the fact that they had actually committed these horrific crimes. And that's the story I was assigned to do in 1999, which was going to be the 30th anniversary of the case, I was asked by a film magazine called Premier that doesn't exist anymore, to just find, you know, write a story about the 30th anniversary, what kind of impact it had on our culture, on Hollywood. I mean, it changed a lot of stuff these murders in 1969. A lot of people called at the end of the 60s. Kind of the signal that all of a sudden th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the th the th the th th th th th th the thuuuuu th th th th th th thui thui thoe thoe th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th, I was th, I was th, I was th, I was th, I was th, I was th, I was th th th th th th th th th, I was th, I was th, I was th, I was th, I was th, I was th, I was th, I was th, I was th, I was thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thia thia thia thia thiauia thia thia thia thia thia thia thia thia of people called at the end of the 60s. Kind of the signal that all of a sudden taught the world that hippies and drugs and free sex and communal living

Starting point is 00:23:53 and stuff might not be some kind of neuronic, peaceful life, but actually could be very dangerous and destructive. So when I started looking into this case for what was supposed to be a three-month magazine assignment, I discovered that there were secrets and hidden truths that had never been exposed and the reason I found it out and nobody else did for 30 years is I got access to people. It took a lot of work and a lot of time, critical witnesses who had testified for the prosecution, and all of a sudden the whole official narrative started crumbling and I discovered that a lot of what had been told or testified to a trial and

Starting point is 00:24:37 then published by the prosecutor, a man named Vince Beliosi later in a book called Helter, which to this day is the best-selling true crime book of all time, was basically a lie, a sensationalized story. The people who killed the victims were guilty and should have gone to prison for that. But what wasn't known was that they were manipulated, provoked, and that Manson had kind of been used by these agencies. I actually should stop here and say, I don't prove this definitively. It's a circumstantial case, but I think the evidence is overwhelming that it's what happened, that in the end, all of this was done by design to do exactly what the murders accomplished, which was terrify the populace of hippies, you know, people that look like flower girls and hippie boys.

Starting point is 00:25:32 They were actually boogie people and dangerous and uncontrollable. And if you look into the history of co-antel pro for the FBI and chaos, for the CIA, which was actually not a lot of records. It was both of them were illegal operations and all the records were destroyed, but the agencies had to admit to some of it and some of the stuff has come out. I'm hoping my book is gonna bring out more information,

Starting point is 00:25:58 because I've, among what I found out, opens doors to a lot of other crimes and cases. I don't know about now. I really stopped in the early 70s, but it looks like a lot of stuff that we thought happened, to say, more innocently or less without any kind of connection to government agencies might not have happened that way. One that's known, that's pretty known is that the Gravefield Dead was given an LSD throughout the whole tour. They were the CIA's, the guy who made the CIA's asset was basically.

Starting point is 00:26:33 Elsley, Elsley. He was out, they were the house band. Yeah. I don't really go into that in my book, but it is something that I'm considering doing a follow-up and I've gotten a lot more information about what was happening with the dead and the hate and 6667 and the fact that they were being monitored at the time and it was at their first concerts, you know, their V-ins and whatnot. The Phil Moore and in the park there, the CIA was actually the ones who were distributing the LSD to the kids. All right guys, I want to tell you about our new friends at Joy Mode. That's right, Joy Mode. Johnny, how many times have you been at the

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Starting point is 00:28:45 That's use joymoad.com slash tinfoil for 20% off your first oil. Thanks, joy mode. Hope you guys get in the mode of joy by using joy. Enjoy. My whole theory is like, I get very nervous when anything is labeled culture. Hippy culture, black culture. These things to me, there's, tend to be a, there's, their, the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend to be to be tend, tend tend to be tipil, their their, their, their, their, their, their, their their, their, their their, their, their their their their tend, tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend tend to to be to be to be tend to be tend, to be to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. culture. Hippy culture, black culture. These things to me tend to be a hidden hand. Feminist culture. That seems to have a hidden hand to drive a certain segment of the population a certain way.

Starting point is 00:29:19 You know, first you had everybody moving into drugs and what drugs and what acid it does to your brain and all that stuff and then we have Everybody starting to get the anti-war with what's going on in Vietnam And they can't have that so now if you demonize The hippie culture now people are less likely to engage in that and I also believe this is around the time I know that the Vietnam war ended around 75 right but you know you see later on you see the movement to take money out of school systems and to corrupt the public school system because I also believe people were getting too smart. The population was

Starting point is 00:29:59 starting to understand what was going on and they were getting very nervous about that so they bombarded all these different segments of society with drugs. The DA, there was a, where do you want to get into because I really want to talk about the manipulation of Manson and what hate Ashberry, hey Ashberry represented because as I was reading your book Tom, I was like, oh, they turn Hey Ashberry into a free-range psych ward. It was basically a giant laboratory in which they were, they allowed these, I hate to call people lab rats, but just for the sake of the conversation, these lab rats to move freely and they were able to monitor them through these free clinics and they were able to see what was going on and all that.

Starting point is 00:30:52 Would you like to get into that? Yeah, yeah, I mean, central to what was going on in the Hague in 1967. That was, 67 was called the summer that, uh, I can't remember how th th, th, how th, how th th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. to to th. to to to to to thu to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I that, that, that. I to to to to the. I to to to to to to to to to to to to the. the. the. the. the. th. Summer of Love by the media. And it was the summer that, I can remember how many hundreds of thousands of kids kind of migrated to the hate to be a part of this new scene, this new peace and love and anti-war scene. And prior to that, in 65, 66, these young doctors internists in the hate were experimenting with drugs and their impact on people who lived in group situations and close situations using rats and mice injecting them with amphetamines

Starting point is 00:31:44 and then giving them LSD to see how the behavior could be controlled. These young doctors, then I shouldn't say young, like late 20s or late 30s, anticipated this kind of invasion of youth in 1967. And at June 6, 1967, right when the kids start coming in to the hate, they opened up something called the Hate Ashbury Free Medical Clinic, which was a free clinic that they knew was going to be needed to treat these kids for, you know, drug-related injuries, overdoses, also, since the kids were coming with one-way bus tickets or hitchhiking there

Starting point is 00:32:23 are not planning to leave. They knew that they were going were the their their to their their their their their to their their their their their their their their the, were going to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be toeck. toe. their toeateateateate. toe. toe. toe. th. th. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. thea. thea. tea. toda. todaya. todaya. todaya. todaya. todaya. todaya. todaya. todaya. todaya. -way bus tickets or hitchhiking there not planning to leave. They knew that they had we're going to be treating them for STDs and all kinds of things. It was free. It was the first free clinic. Still there. Wow. They actually closed the month after my book came out. Oh, damn man. Oh, man. So in that summer of 67 when the clinic opened, they announced that, you know, it was being run entirely on donations. And money that came, you know, through public health stuff, but they were, the founder, David Smith, said he was not going to be doing any research, not reporting any results to, to the government. He was just doing this be doing any research, not reporting any results to the government. He was just doing this to help the kids.

Starting point is 00:33:08 As it turned out, what I found out and a few other people before me, all of the stuff they were doing was actually at the behest of the government. It was research into the drugs. They were keeping track. They were getting secret funding. They also gave an office to a psychiatrist who's pretty prominent in my book named Louis West, Jolly West.

Starting point is 00:33:29 And he went there to recruit subjects for his LSD experiments. And at the time, he was just considered kind of this benevolent academic psychiatrist. He was from the University of Oklahoma, where he ran the neuroscience department. And he had taken a sabbatical for one year to go to the University of Oklahoma where he ran their neuroscience department and he had taken a sabbatical for one year to go to the hate. Again, how these people knew this was going to happen a year before it happened is always something that's kind of puzzled me.

Starting point is 00:33:57 It's super interesting, right? But it's really easy to get patients. You know, free LSD. Yeah, right. Well, the clinic was, the clinic wasn't, the clinic wasn't, the clinic wasn't, the clinic wasn't, the clinic wasn't, the clinic wasn't, the clinic wasn't, the clinic wasn't, the clinic wasn't, the clinic wasn't, the clinic wasn't, the clinic wasn't the clinic wasn't the clinic was, the clinic was, the clinic, the clinic, the clinic, the the at that time? Yeah, right. The clinic wasn't giving out the LSD. They were just kind of well they weren't supposed to be. Yeah, right, totally 100% and it's like Johnny said on a couple podcast there's no biological shortcuts right? There's no right there's no free rides and there's no, I mean if we take a look at just your phone, your Gmail, the free email, oh, what are they're right? right? right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's no, right, right, right, right, right, right, there's no, there's no, there's no, they, their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they's, their, they's, they's they're, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their they're they're they're they're they're they're mean if we take a look at just your phone, your Gmail, right? Oh, here's a free email.

Starting point is 00:34:26 Oh, what are they doing? They're collecting your data, okay? Nothing's free. You're the product, yeah, when it's free. What happened at this clinic was, there was another Smith there, named Roger Smith, who's not related to David Smith. Roger Smith was getting his PhD in criminology at Berkeley's School of Criminology, and he was also working as a federal parole officer.

Starting point is 00:34:51 So Manson got released in Los Angeles in March of 67, and he was, oh, I didn't lose you. No, we're still here. Okay, we're just listening. Believe it or not, that happens once and a while on this. Yeah, yeah, you stop me if I, like, no, no, you're killing it. We love it. We love it. We love it. So Roger Smith was working also as a federal parole. Manson is released in March of the thirty to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to to. to. to. too. too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. to. Yeah. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. the. the. the the the the the the the the the the the the. th the th to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. the to. the to. the the to. the the t t t the Angeles and immediately the same day violates his patrol parole by just moving up to the Bay Area and announcing himself at their offices.

Starting point is 00:35:30 Now I was able to freedom of information act requests to get what the Bureau of Prisons was willing to release to me from Manson's parole record and nobody had ever gotten it before. I got this in the early 2000s and there's a description of this guy who's not supposed to be in this district and they want want the to the the to the the the to the to the to the to the the to to the to the to to the to to the to the to to the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the theyau.au.au.au.au. their their I got this in the early 2000s. And there's a description of this guy who's not supposed to be in this district and they wanna violate him, the supervisor in San Francisco at the office says, you know, he's clearly not ready to be amongst us because he's still violating the basic tenants,

Starting point is 00:36:00 the rules of his parole, he needs to be sent back to prison. And the federal the federal the federal the federal the federal the federal the federal the federal the federal the federal the federal, the federal, the federal, the federal, the federal, the federal, the federal, the federal, thooooooo, tho, too, too, too, too, to be, too, too, too, to be, to be, too, too, too, too, too, to be, to be, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, tho, tho, tho, tho, the. the. the. tooooooooooooooooooo. too. tooo. tooo. too. And the federal government said, no, no, we'll just reassign him to a man named Roger Smith, who's working in the hay. So Manson becomes Roger Smith's parole client. Roger Smith is also doing drug research, and he has an office at the Hayd Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. Yeah, dude. And the next thing you know, Manson is being told by Smith to come for his once a week

Starting point is 00:36:27 appointments to the clinic, where they have to have their one-on-one meetings to find out if Manson's following his parole regulations, which he's not. that's getting arrested and Roger Smith is not violating him. He's allowing him to stay. And that's again, that's, it was during that kind of combustible two or three months of that summer that Manson emerged from the hate with long hair, this kind of hippie speak and this group of girls, mostly girls then, who would do anything he said, including kill strangers for him. All within a few months he had achieved that talent

Starting point is 00:37:06 to do something that the CIA's M.K. Ulster program had started trying to accomplish in 1952 and had never been able to do. And when the program was ended in 1972 or three, I should say if it was ended, that's when the official story was, the plug was pulled on it. They said they never actually accomplished anything. I think that's wrong.

Starting point is 00:37:28 I think they accomplished a lot and just never shared it with us. I completely agree with you. And you know, if we just take a look of, like, throughout time, since then we've seen, you know, loaned gunmen. Then their files on him, they, they, they, they's, they've, they've, they've, they've, then we find out there's like all these, you know, files on him, they've been tracking them, they never, they never did anything about it, they actually helped them get out of situations because that is, you know, there's all the stories about the 9-11 hijackers where they were tipped off early, stuff like that, if that's even a real narrative. But so you, so what we see here is like, well, you know, with our phones and all that stuff,

Starting point is 00:38:07 we have the collection of data. They can figure out who's vulnerable, who's this. So you're running this clinic. You have this kid who is institutionalized, right? He comes from a really hard, hard background. He experiences sexual assault very early in the children's institutions where they had him. He starts sexually assaulting both boys and probably girls at that point. So they see that this guy is a nutshell, a nut job right now at a very early age and it's really

Starting point is 00:38:44 sucks because we all come into this world with love and our heart and variables around us tend to harden and harden and harden us and make us start to treat people as we have been treated. We think that's what happens when you get the power you start treating people poorly and he's doing it. And on top that, he has some kind of either delusions of grandeur of being a musician or actually some kind of talent enough to be hanging out with these people. Now you can manipulate these people. Now you, he's charming. He could work women.

Starting point is 00:39:20 We've seen this happen before. We're young, good looking, I mean Charles Manson before the chaos, good looking guy, you know, talking a sweet game with girls who are just around for the free love and wanting to hang out with a guy who's playing and you just see him getting in trouble, getting in trouble, getting in trouble, and then being released out of prison. This becomes somewhat of a, I would say, a trend that's very concerning. It's kind of meaning that they're watching him enough to know exactly when he's getting arrested and when exactly they could let him go and why are they doing that? Kind of

Starting point is 00:39:53 giving him this sense of like oh they we nobody can touch me I go I get arrest I go over into jail. Superman. You don't think that's happening now I'm sorry? Go on sorry you were talking about that th. Do th. Do th. Do th. Do th. Do we? Do we? Do th. Do we? Do th. Do we? Do th. Do th. Do th. Do th. Do th. Do th. Do th. Do th. Do the th. Do we? Do we? Do we? Do we? Do we? Do we're? they? they? they? they? they? I. they're? I's? I's? I's? I's? I's? I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. the. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. they're their. their. they're their. they're they're they're watching. they're they're they're watching. they're watching. they're they're now with the school shooters? I'm sorry. Go on, sorry. You were talking about that. This is, do we see these with these shooters now? That's 100% they're put in these kind of programs. We see them in these. They can see their social media when they're thinking crazy thoughts. I need an AR and they post like 1973 or four. Everybody asked me if I think all this stuff that happens today are in the last 10-15 years with the shootings. I said look that's not my

Starting point is 00:40:33 wheelhouse. I mean it might seem like it but I'm just trying to say grounded in everything at the origins of these programs that I can actually get information on. At some point I might look into the possibility that th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th of the the other other other other other other other other other other other th. th. th. I th. I th. I'm th. I'm thi thi thi. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi thi thi thi thi th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thin. I'm thin. I'm thin. I'm th. I'm thin. I'm th. I'm thin. I'm thin. I'm th. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I th actually get information on. At some point, I might look into the possibility that these other events that happened almost on a weekly basis now could be a part of it. Nothing, nothing surprises me anymore. I'll say that. Now, Johnny, Jolly West, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:59 Um, Charles Manson was in his only high profile client. Am I correct? I believe he had many, many other very high-profile clients. Yeah, he was kind of like a zealic character. He would just show up. And, I mean, the first time he became kind of globally famous was never felt like his work. What happened was we had an assassination of a president, John F. Kennedy, and as people probably know, three days after Oswald was arrested and charged by the Dallas Police Department with the assassination, he himself was killed in the basement of the Dallas Police Department

Starting point is 00:41:43 when he was being transferred from there to another facility by a guy named Jack Ruby. And Jack Ruby was a local strip club owner in Dallas who had ties to the mob. And I mean, they were, he just seemed like a small time hood. At the time that he shot Oswald, I think it was the first live murder on television, unless you count Kennedy, but the only film in Kennedy getting killed was this is a brooder film, and that didn't come out till later. But there were literally all these cameras in the basement of the Dallas PD, and they're showing Oswald walking out, or being let out in handcuffs, and Ruby walks right up and shoots him in the

Starting point is 00:42:25 stomach and kills him. When Ruby was tackled by the police, the first thing he said is, I'm Jack Ruby, why am I here? Why are you arresting me? He was taken in and claimed to be amnesic of this act. Long story short, he was held and tried I think within about six or seven months and convicted of murder and he never took the stand. He never told one story to a paper, which is a whole other, I don't want to get into that because it would take too long, but the person who extracted the story from him, I found out was a CIA guy. Anyway. Oh man. Yeah, Larry Schiller. But, uh, in that would take too long, but the person who extracted the story from him, I found out was a CIA guy. Anyway, Larry Schiller, but in that story he said he was killing Oswald to spare Jackie Kennedy from having to come to a trial in Dallas and testify against, um, against

Starting point is 00:43:20 Oswald if he were alive. His own lawyer admitted later that he had told Ruby to say that in this interview, and he had made it up. So Ruby's in prison in 1964, and he's about to get, he's waiting for a new trial, because you always get an appeal, and they were going to make an appeal, and he also was going to testify to the Warren Commission, the group that was assembled to try to find out whether Oswald really did act alone or whether there

Starting point is 00:43:49 was a conspiracy. And right before Ruby was set to testify to the commission and say under oath why he did what he did, his new lawyer, a guy named Winston Smith, asked Jolly West to come from Oklahoma and examine Ruby and do a mental evaluation to see if he was psychiatrically sound, which he had been found to be sound for his first trial. So West comes in to see him in Dallas in Dallas in, I can remember remember it was October of 64. He's with him alone in his jail cell for about two hours. He comes out of his jail cell, holds a press conference and says, announces that sometime

Starting point is 00:44:36 in the preceding 48 hours, Jack Ruby has had a psychotic break with reality from which he might not ever recover. And he says, among other things, he has auditory and visual hallucinations. He saw people in the room that he was terrified of that weren't in the room. He was hiding under a table. He told me that he could hear the screams of Jewish people being boiled alive outside his jail cell at night. And West predicted that Ruby might never recover from this basically nervous breakdown he'd had. What nobody knew then was that West was secretly contracted by the CIA's M.K.

Starting point is 00:45:18 Alter program to do, among other things, induce insanity in a person without their awareness. And West had announced to the CIA in 1955 that he had accomplished that using drugs, that he could make somebody mentally ill, like in a laboratory setting or in a private setting. So, what I found out when I was doing this work, five years in when I realized that West was a part of the hate, the Hadesbury Free Medical Clinic, and what was going to do, and what was going to to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do the the the the to do the the to do the to to to to to to the to to to to to to to to to to to this work, five years in, when I realized that West was a part of the hate, the H.D. Asperary Free Medical Clinic, and what was going on there, I looked into the allegations that had come out in 77 when M.K. Ultra was exposed by first reporters at the New York Times, Seymour Hirsch, and later in these congressional hearings, West was one of about a dozen academics who have been identified as CIA contracted NK Ultra

Starting point is 00:46:12 agents who were giving drugs to people without their knowledge to try to create the programmed assassins, seeing if they could induce amnesias to all this kind of brainwashing crazy stuff. West was on the front page of the New York Times and charged in the papers being one of these agents. He told the New York Times in 77, he had been approached to do it and turned them down. He said, I thought it was ridiculous. I've never done anything like that. So West at that point was at UCLA,

Starting point is 00:46:42 where he ran the psychiatry department there and their neuroscience institute and until he died I think in 98 or 99 he died the same year I got this assignment 99 every time somebody accused him of being part of the CIA program or MK Ultra he would vehemently deny it and threaten to sue them. After he died and when I stumbled upon his kind of fringe role in the Manson life, the life of Manson and 67 and the Hague, I went to UCLA where he'd been the last 25 years of his career to see whether or not he donated his papers, which often happens with someone like him. And they told me he had, and they were there,

Starting point is 00:47:26 they hadn't been processed yet, meaning they have to go through them and make sure there's nothing in there that violates paper, especially with doctors, patient confidentialities. So it took months, but they started releasing a box at a time, and I started going to the library to the special collections department and going through the files and you know they've got cameras on you there's only 12 people in the room there's a monitor because you never know what can be in these archives that people will steal. Again long story short

Starting point is 00:47:54 I know this has been too long. No it's great. I mean we're listening dude. I mean for a needle in a haystack I just like, and again it was complete intuition, that there was something in there that was going to show that West had in fact been a part of this program, even though nobody ever was able to chart, I mean, he was never even investigated for it. Once he said no, nobody followed up and said, well, wait a minute, you were, you know, with Jack Ruby the day he went crazy, etc. Well, I found documents. First, a few and then about, I think, 30 or 40 altogether. And it was correspondence between Jolly West beginning in 1953 and Sherman Grifford, who was the head of the M.Cy Ultra experimental program. His real name was Dr. Sidney Gottley. He used Sherman

Starting point is 00:48:44 Grifford as a cover name. And there were letters between West and Gottlieb that began in 53 and went all the way through the end of the 50s that basically described the exact kind of illegal experiments that the CIA later admitted to, but there was no actual paper record because they destroyed everything. These were the most intact records of MK Alter experiments. And as one research, actually the guy who blew the whistle on MK Altar to that it took

Starting point is 00:49:19 the information to Seymour Hersh and 75 or 6, and then wrote the first book about M.K. Altarjo, John Marks, when I showed him these letters, he said, number one, if I had these letters when I wrote my book, my book would have been entirely different because we didn't have any documents. And number two, he said, of the documents we had, they were just financial and with redactions, he goes, this is like a blueprint for the entire program and these are definitely authentic. Everything in here is what they were doing. So I found out that West had in fact lied to the press all those years and that there was a paper tril showing that he was doing exactly what the CIA was trying to do and in close proximity to Jack Ruby when Jack Ruby lost his sense of reality.

Starting point is 00:50:07 Jack Ruby did testify to the Warren Commission about three or four months after West had probably given him LSD in a combination with another drug and they had to stop his testimony because he was rambling incoherent and they never used it. And then he died mysteriously a year later of a quick acting cancer. And so that's kind of that's all in the book and it might sound less crazy if you read it. No dude I did this show this is par for the course I mean I'm just enjoying listening to everything you're saying so where this is awesome and I. I've been obviously wanting to interview for a long time because this really fits into, you know,

Starting point is 00:50:51 a lot of stuff we talk about on this show right now. And it's just like the controlling of controlled opposition. You know, I mean, they get this ranch. Things are going on out there all the time. LAPD won't arrest them. People are talking about people going missing, cars getting stolen, all this stuff. Nothing's happening. It's almost like they're trying to create a power keg that can explode when they

Starting point is 00:51:18 want to pull the trigger. Now, Charles Manson starts like kind of making some headway into some of the big players In in the music at that time. I believe Someone from the Eagles am I correct? He was like meeting some people from the Eagles and was no The beach boys the beach boys there we go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Neil young actually publicly as admitted not only being impressed by Madsen's music when he met him in 68 and 69, but he even tried to get him an audition with I think was Mo Austin at Universal Records. And to this day in his memoir Neil Young wrote that he was not a bad musician. Well, real quick before we get into what happened in Los Angeles, I also wanted to talk about the introduction of crystal meth into Hay Ashberry. And how speed was starting to become a really big thing in that area. So you had, you know, we had acid and M.K. Alter going on.

Starting point is 00:52:24 They had something called Operation Midnight Climax. Prostitutes would be bringing back men in particular, what was thought to be possible double agents of intelligence, and they were dousing them with acid and trying to see if they could get them to talk. And that was a big thing, and that's along the lines of giving these people drugs. And we see that a lot with the medical mafia intelligence service. Medical procedures, acid would be one of those being done to people without their permission

Starting point is 00:52:58 and not without them knowing that they're participating in an experiment. And that was a big part of hate Ashberry. You saw crystal meth coming in and you saw acid in this combination. Oh, that's the worst. Kind of come together where people would be up for days. Now you're hitting them with psychedelics and what can they control that? Can they break down their psychology? They're psyching to get them to do whatever they want them to do? Yeah, well, it's interesting because because I they they they they they thi they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're. they're. they're. they're. they're th. thi. they're they're they're they're. they're they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. they. they. they. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. th. t. t. ty. ty. ty. too. I too. ty. too. I too. I too. I too. I te. I te. I te. I'mto get them to do whatever they want them to do. Yeah, well, it's interesting because I get into this a little in the book, but not as much as I wanted, because it's really, really technical and scientific. And if I do the second book, which I think I will, I'm going to go a lot more into it, but David Smith, the person who ran the clinic and these other kind of peripheral

Starting point is 00:53:45 scientists that were coming up there and supposedly administering health care for months at a time during the first two or three years but we're actually just doing research, they were trying to learn how to, among the most important research they were doing starting in 6667 was to learn why some people reacted to LSD differently than others and I have these papers that they had done some of them were published in obscure journals where they literally say we're trying to understand why two people will be given the same amount of LSD in the same setting and one person will have a complete radical personality change and the other won't.

Starting point is 00:54:33 And was it because of pre-existing conditions in their psyche, or was it something environmental? And they did all this research and the hate on these kids to find out exactly how you could find the ones who would have a radical personality change. So in other words, take one trip of LSD and be permanently altered to become kind of like someone who believes in visions and seeing Christ or the devil. And that's exactly what Manson did with his followers. Some of them he would try to manipulate and try to give drugs to and they wouldn't, they wouldn't succumb, others did.

Starting point is 00:55:17 And this was exactly what the CIA was doing through these doctors and Manson had mastered it and David Smith had written a paper called, what was it called, the psychedelic, psychedelic, I can't remember what it was, I have it. It's been too long since it did it. Psychedic Syndrome. And he believed that there was a preexisting factor in a person's brain chemistry and that you could determine through tests with LSD and other drugs whether you could trigger that to change a person. And Boliosi, this is what's so kind of fascinating, is so Bouliosi, the prosecutor, gets

Starting point is 00:56:03 the five Manson defendants convicted of murder. They don't put up a defense, they don't testify during their trial, but after they're convicted, they have what they call the death penalty phase where the jury comes back, the defendants are brought back, and you hear testimony to decide whether or not they should get executed, which was legal in California at the time, it isn't anymore. So for like two or three months, they had psychiatrists coming on the stand who would examine Manson family members, testifying about whether or not they thought that they had killed

Starting point is 00:56:36 these people of their own volition or whether they were manipulated by Manson, basically brainwashed. And the prosecution said that they were brainwishededededededededededededededededededededededededed, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to to the to to to to to to to to to to their their to to told told to to to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the, the. the. Soe. Soe. Soe. Soe. Somea, toeck. Soc. Soc-s, toecoe, theateateate, thiiii. thi. the prosecution said that they were brainwashed by Manson that he had somehow developed this technique to get people to do whatever he wanted to do and the proof is in the pudding look they all did it and they're not denying they all admitted they did it during the death penalty but what Buleos he had to also prove to get them the death penalty that as he wrote in his book and said in his closing the the the closing the closing the closingto also prove to get them the death penalty, that as he wrote in his book and said in his closing argument, somewhere deep within the deepest recesses

Starting point is 00:57:11 of their mind, there was a precipitating factor that all it had to do was to be triggered and they would kill, independent of anything else, they had it in them, they just weren't aware of it, and that Nansen had figured out how to do it...... And it. And it. And it. And it. And it. And it, and it, and it, and it, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And it, th. And it, th. thi. thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their. their. the. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. today. today. their. their. their. their. the it in them, they just weren't aware of it, and that Nansen had figured out how to do it. And it's almost like Bulioci was reading from these scientific papers that were done by scientists who were actually trying to create people who trying to find them and then experiment with them and see how far they could go. That's what the M.K. Altape doing that year. So can I can I ask a question real quick, Tom? Why wasn't this is something that's always confused me because Charles Manson seems like such a strong-willed person and maybe I'm wrong about that. Why wasn't he ever more of a source for the things that happened to him? You know what I mean? Was he just happy with kind of how his state, you know in prison and it is? This theoretical on my part and other people who've kind of studied Manson.

Starting point is 00:58:08 There were a few things. So when he was released from prison in 1967 in Los Angeles, he begged the prison, his keepers, to keep him behind bars. He said, this is my home, this is all I've known. I don't want to go out there. He refused to sign his release release. tothen, like I said, everything he did for the next two years seemed like he was trying to be sent back and they wouldn't send him back. There's a couple theories.

Starting point is 00:58:36 Number one, he wanted to be famous and wanted to be the monster that everybody got to know more than anything in the world, that he loved that fame and he wanted to be back in prison. I'm not so sure. You know, again, this is where I can only speculate, but I think that, you know, other people say, why did he never say that he'd been manipulated? Well, the most important tenant of Manson's life, and he did say this in interviews and books was, I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I'm I I'm I'm I'm I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, that I'm not, that I'm not, that I'm not, that I'm not, that I'm not, that I'm not that I'm not that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I that I that I that I that, that, that, that, th... th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thee the thi. the the thi. the thi. the thi. thi. thi. I'm not a snitch. He would never tell. I also don't think he didn't want people to think he had the power to do this. What I don't know and what I only can theoretize about is, was he taught by these same doctors how to do what he did to his women? Or was he a part of it too. I mean the one thing that West said that was one of the most important letters he wrote to Sidney Gottlieb from 54 was that, and this was only like two years of doing this research for the

Starting point is 00:59:31 CIA, he reported to Gottlieb that through the combination of hypnosis and the administration of LSD and other drugs, he had learned how to remove true memories from a person and replace them with false memories without that person ever being aware of it and that the false memories would be stuck in permanent forever. And I mean if you have that kind of power of a person without their knowledge, you can do almost anything. It's like being God. Amazing. I have one other question. It seems this would certainly help you with your next book. And it's a piece of evidence. I know a lot of us who follow this have been waiting on for a long time. The text Watson tapes his interviews with his attorney.

Starting point is 01:00:16 What is that ever? Are we ever going to hear those? I don't know? I try so hard to get those. I I'm the the the text tryts thks thks thks. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I try. I try. I to to to to to to to to to to to to to told. to to to to to to to to to told. told. told. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to told. to to to to to to their. their. their. their their their their their their. their their their try. try. try. try. try. try. try. try. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. try so hard to get those to I mean I'm the one that discovered that they were in a vault in Dallas and Watson's old attorneys archive I mean he so to those who don't know Tex Watson was the one who really was kind of like Manson's right hand and committed the most horrible violence at each of the murder scenes so he was the one that stabbed eight and a half month old Sharon tade to death while she was begging for the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life the life of the life of the the of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thoe of tho a thi of the murder scenes. So he was the one that stabbed eight and a half month old, Sharon Tade to Death while she was begging for the life of her child. Oh my God. He inflicted stab wounds, you know, there were dozens and dozens on each victim. It was him and the girls,

Starting point is 01:00:56 but he was the one who was kind of calling the shots. He had left the Manson group right before they all got rounded up and arrested in Death Valley, went home to Dallas and was living back at his parents. And when he had left Texas in 67, he had left college. He was a scholar athlete, star of the football team really clean cut, yes ma'am, no ma'am, and then he transformed once he met Manson and became a follower. So he was back in Texas and once the LAPD had kind of figured out who committed the murders and they were about to round everybody up,

Starting point is 01:01:36 they found out that Watson was back at his parents' house in Dallas and they called Watson's uncle who was the sheriff of their little town and said, we want to send a couple detectives down to interview Charles, his name was Charles, Charles Watson. And the sheriff said about what? And they said, we can't tell you, but can you please detain him. Otherwise, we'll bring a warrant. He said, no, no, I'll just bring him into the station. I'm sure Charles didn't do anything bad. So the detectives went down, went to the station, and Watson was brought in with his parents, and he had a lawyer.

Starting point is 01:02:13 The parents called Bill Boyd, this lawyer, and asked him to be present. So the detectives basically asked Watson if he had been involved in the murder of Sharon Tate and the La Bianca's. and he said, and he said, and he said, and he said, and he said, and he said, and he said, and he said, and he said, and he said, and he said, and he said, and he said, and he said, and he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, the detectives, he said, he said, he said, the detect, the detect, the detect. the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detects, the detectives. the detectives. th. the detectives. the detectives. the detectives. the detectives. the detectives. they. the detectives. the detectives, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, he said, the detectives. the murder of Sharon Tate and the Labianca's. And he said, he didn't know, he said, I barely, I think I read about that in the paper, but no, of course not. And then the detectives said, well, we need you to really think about this because there's some implicating evidence that you were. And then Bill Boyd, the attorney, his attorney took him aside or took the detectives aside and said, leave me alone with them. And I want to talk to him. So everyone left the room and Boyd said,

Starting point is 01:02:48 I'm going to leave you here for like an hour. Think about this and then decide what you want to do. But if you did it and they have the evidence, it's better now to admit it. So they left Watson alone for an hour and at the end of the hour Watson said I killed that woman I killed Sharon Tate so he was put under arrest and you know they couldn't just take him to Texas they still had to get a transfer order state to state so they left him and then Bill Boyd immediately started audio taping Watson and Watson for what Bill Boyd later told me when I interviewed him for 20 hours, described everything. What happened when he got to Los Angeles, how he met Manson, what

Starting point is 01:03:28 Manson did to get his followers to do what they did, and then everything about the two nights of murder, you know, who did what, who was where, all that, and I interviewed Bull Boyd in 2008, and during this phone interview, he said, you know, I have these tapes that nobody's ever heard and they're in my vault here in my office. And he goes, you know, he even talked about other murders that the police had never discovered. And I said, you mean unsolved murders. He goes, yeah, murders that are unsolved to this day that they all did. Amazing. And you don't say that to to to to to to to that to that the to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, th. th. th. th. th. th. their. their, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. t. tape. tape. t. tape. tape. tape. tape. tape. I. I. And you don't say that to a reporter or anyone, if you're that person, even if you're his lawyer, you know, 40 years before,

Starting point is 01:04:11 there's still something called attorney prying, privilege, and that's a complete violation of it. So I said, Mr. Boyd, are you saying that those tapes could lead me to, because it had always been suspected that the Manson family killed other people. Bulioce, actually, in his book, said he thought they may have killed as many as 33. They were convicted for killing nine. But Bulioci thought the number was a minimum of 33. So once Bill Boyd realized what he had done that he shouldn't have done, well, he immediately backped and said, well, actually, I didn't say that Charles committed those murders. Charles just had information about them. He knew that Manson and who else in the family did it. I said, well, I'd love to hear the tapes

Starting point is 01:04:52 and I knew it was never going to happen. Yeah. Very long story short. He wouldn't let me, and then he died about a year or two told me. And then th. And th. And th. And th. And th. th. th. th. th. they. th. they. they. th. they. th. they. th. th. they. he. he. he. he. he. he. he he he he th. th. he he. he. he. he. He's, he he. He. He's, he they. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He's. He's. He's. He's the. He's the. He's th. He's th. He's th. He th. He's th. He th. He th. He's th. He th. He th. He th. He the the the th. He the. He the. He treadmill and had a heart attack or stroke. I didn't know he died, but I found out later in about 2015, when I was going to go back to him and see if he had changed his mind, I found out he had died three or four years before. So then I called his law firm and I found out the law firm have been dissolved upon his death and gone into bankruptcy, and those audio tapes were in the custody, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, and ta, and to, and to, and toe, and to, and ta, and toe, and toe, and toe, and toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, too, and I, and I was, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and I was, and I was, and I was, and I was, and I was, and I was, and I was, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and to, and to, and to, and to, and to, and to, and to, and to, and to, and toe, toe, too, too, to too, the too, too, toe. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to tapes were in the custody with all of his files of a bankruptcy, a trustee for a bankruptcy court. So for two years I fought with her to try to get the tapes. I ended up sharing information with the deputy DA down here in Los Angeles who was in charge of all the Manson Parole hearings, and he was kind of advising me on what I could do to get the tapes.

Starting point is 01:05:45 And when I told the trustee that I had his ear, she said, well, would he talk to me? Maybe he could persuade me, and I said, yeah, yeah, he'll talk to you. Next thing you know, behind my back, the deputy DAI got the tapes............................. to. to. to. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. the. the. the. the t. the t. the t. the t. tha. the t. the t. the t. the t. the t. the t. the t. the t. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the t...........................................................................................................................that I was going to get to listen to them first with him. But as soon as I heard them, they said this journalist can't hear what's on these tapes. So that was like 2014-15. And then I began this crusade to try to get the tapes. I went public, wrote an article. And Leslie Van Houghton, who's one of the killers, who's in prison, his name's Rich Fifer, since he found out about the tapes

Starting point is 01:06:25 to the first article I wrote, he's been going to court again and again again, saying he believes there's a sculptorory information on the tapes and his client should have access. Now, these tapes are more than 50 years old. It's the only piece of evidence to our knowledge that the LAPD has that th, th, th, th, the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that the LAPD has, that they've never released, never made public. And he's gone all the way to the Supreme Court, Fifer, the state Supreme Court, trying to get the tapes,

Starting point is 01:06:52 and he gets turned down again and again and again. It's been like six years, and he's still not stopping. Is he ever going to prevail? I don't know. I was hoping when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when the the the the the the the the the the the the to. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm, to. to. I'm. I'm. I'm. to. I's. I's. I's. I's, to. I. I. I. I. I. I's, to. I. I. I. I's, to. I's, to. I. I's, to. to. I's, to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. the to. to. the to. to. the the the the to. the the the the the the the the the the there be public pressure on them to release the tapes. But no, as far as we know, they're still involved at the LAPD's office. And I believe they are the most accurate account of what happened because Watson gave this account to his attorney before any of them were in the newspapers, before the public knew that these people were suspects. And the first recorded account of what happened on a tape, it happened about two weeks later when Susan Atkins gave her version of what happened to her attorneys, but for people who read my book, you'll find out the attorneys were illegally planted by the prosecution on her defense

Starting point is 01:07:45 to basically coerce her involvement as a prosecution witness and write a script for her of what to say. So I believe these tapes could upend the convictions because I believe they have all the crazy shit I'm talking about here I believe is on those tapes and that's why the LAPB won't release them. Isn't it super tragic that you know covering your own ass is more important than the truth? It's just so sad to me. You see it happen with making of a murderer on it's so obvious what happened with that case and the Wisconsin Supreme Court is never going to let that guy out because if they do, he also got to give him money.

Starting point is 01:08:28 Well yeah, because he's going to own that city. Yeah, it's basically his. There's, the convict him twice on stuff where there was no evidence, you're just going to the city over. And it just really sucks. And even like 50 years later, when this stuff is like, most of the people are long gone, and the killers are still, a couple of them are still alive, but they're so frail and I know one ass cancer

Starting point is 01:08:52 and it's just like not saying that they didn't do it, but just like what actually happened? And were they corral? Were weak people corralled into committing crimes? That, you know, that normally they wouldn't have done on............. to, to, to go, to go, to go, to go, to go, to go, to go, to go, to go, to go, to go. to go, to go, to go. to go. to go, to be, to be, to be, toe, too, to be, to, to, they, they, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, they... And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. toe. toe. toe. toe. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. their, their, their, their,, you know, that normally they wouldn't have done on their own. And I know I'm sure you got to go in a few but I wanted to ask you the timelines of the murders. I remember reading your book and that they didn't match up and and that witnesses didn't corroborate the story. There's so much contradictory information out

Starting point is 01:09:27 there and again you know this was the trial was in 1970 to 71 there was no internet. More importantly, most importantly Watergate didn't happen until 73, 74 and I think the public was just so much less cynical or skeptical and didn't, I mean, I couldn't believe the journalists weren't looking into this at the time. But you know, once Watergate happened, then all of a sudden people suspected the government of much more nefarious stuff. And then after Watergate was when the disclosures about Co-Andel Pro, and Koentel and M. K. Ulster all came out from like 74 to, and their. And their. And their. And their. And their. And their. And their. And their, and their, their, their, their, their, th. And th. And th. And th. th. th. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I. I, I. And I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I I, I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I. I I I I. I. I. I. I. I. And I. And I. And I. And I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I'm. And, I'm, th. And, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. And, I'm, I. And, I. And,ell and M.K. Ulster all came out from like 74 to 77. And there were about a half dozen different congressional hearings.

Starting point is 01:10:12 And then we learned that the government had really been committing crimes against the population at the behest of the director of the CIA, Richard Nixon, of a J.G. Ronald Reagan, when he was governor of California here, when the whole Manson thing happened, there was like this kind of cabal of right-wing guys who were pulling the strings. I didn't even think Reagan was governor during this whole thing. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:10:37 Oh my God. Mm-hmm. Damn. That is crazy, dude. I didn't even realize that. That's so the the the the the the the the the tha tha. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh, th. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, the th. Oh, the th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh. Oh. Oh. didn't even realize that. That is so nuts to me, man. And Evel Younger, who was the main DA of Los Angeles, who basically, you know, he picked Bulli-O-C to prosecute the trial. He was an ex-O-S-S-Man who had gone from the OSS, which, you know, evolved into the CIA, into the FBI. I mean, he was a spook for 20 years before he went to law school and became a DA, and he

Starting point is 01:11:13 was part of Nixon, President Nixon's Law and Order, what do you call it, office, where he was one of Nixon's advisors on law and order. I mean, these guys were really, really into it up to their ears as far as punishing, you know, and stopping what they believed, and they genuinely believed in 1968, 69, that this left-wing group of the youth was going to have, there was going to be a revolution. They also believed it was funded by the Chinese and the Russians as people believe, you know, now about the Russians, but back then that everything was getting funned and played by them. So they believe it was their patriotic duty to do whatever they could to squash the left-wing movement.

Starting point is 01:11:59 And there's a couple witnesses, I know there was a gentleman who happened to be gay, that said one thing and then later on as you try to follow up, he pushed back, didn't want to talk to you and didn't want to speak on the matter. Were there a lot of witnesses like that that that talked and maybe were mob involved? There were also cops who worked the case, who gave the case, who gave the case? th, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the case, the case, the case, and, the case, the case, the case, the, the, the, the, the, the, and, the, the, and, the, and, the, the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and talked and maybe were mob involved? There were also cops who worked the case who gave me information and then when they saw where it took me and I came back to them for more they kind of freaked out and panicked at least four that I can think of right off the top of my head who were

Starting point is 01:12:42 so cooperative with me in the beginning and then told me not to call them anymore, to stay away, that I had gotten them in trouble. These guys are already retired, but one of them I felt horrible about Charlie Gunther. He was one of the most revered sheriff's investigators. I mean, if you know James Elroy, this great crime novelist who writes about Los Angeles crime, Black Dahlia, all kinds of books, had written about Charlie and said Charlie was the best cop in the United States, the best detective. And when the sheriff, Lee Baca, of Los Angeles found out what Charlie Gunther had shared with me in around 2007 or eight or 9, he put out the word

Starting point is 01:13:26 that Charlie's was done and he was telling everybody that Charlie was mentally ill. Ironically, Lee Baca, you know where he is right now? He's sitting in prison. He got caught up in a scandal in about 2012 or 2013. The Sheriff's Department, you know, runs the security at the, they run the prisons here and his, a bunch of his sheriffs were torturing and raping prisoners. And he, he covered it all up and lied under oath and he ended up getting convicted and sent to prison. This is about four years after he chased me out of his office. The sheriff's quarters when I was interviewing him and he was telling me I was full of shit and all that. And he was just as corrupt as the rest of the people

Starting point is 01:14:09 I was asking him about. So was there any time you felt your life was in danger in doing this investigation, even though it was decades later? Yeah, not as much as most people kind of suspect. I honestly, a lot of people told me I should be scared and I usually wasn't. I mean, I was interviewing a lot of old drug dealers the first year or two and they were threatening me and they were like 80 year old men. I'm like, what are you going to do it? But honestly, the person that I was most scared of until he died in 2016 was Vince Bliossi.

Starting point is 01:14:47 And it's in the book. I mean, he and I began on very friendly terms until I discovered what he didn't want me to discover. And then we came very adversarial. And it got to the point where I had my last big sit-down, face-to-face interview with him in his house in Pasadena in 2006 and we were in the house at his kitchen table from, I think it was like 11 in the morning until 7 at night, and he was screaming and cursing at me and turning off the reporters so he could go off the record and he basically said, you know, he would hurt me like I'd never been hurt before. And I said, do you mean physically?

Starting point is 01:15:30 He goes, well, you can figure that out on your own. Now, Bully Oce, I probably don't have time for it. What I found was even before he got this trial of the then century, you know, before the OJ trial, the manson trial was was was was was was trial is trial is trial, before the OJ trial, the Manson trial was the biggest trial in the history of California. He had been compromised. He had, as crazy as it sounds, in 1966, his wife had their first baby, Vincet Jr., and Vince became convinced that the milkman was the father of the baby. So he started stalking the milkman and using the resources of the DA's office to follow

Starting point is 01:16:07 and monitor the milkman. He was trying to prove that they were happening the fair and he called him a witness in a murder case. And long story, again, short, was the milkman finally figured out who Buliosi was and reported it to the DA's office and to his own attorneys and they were shocked and rather than turning Buleosy over to the police they offered to pay the milkman to be quiet and just go away and they told Bulkman wouldn't take the money that he just said we want him to leave us alone and that was 1968 when it was

Starting point is 01:16:39 finally settled. Bulyoshi should a rest and he at least should have been disbarred. I mean he was sending threatening letters he picked up a little girl, their daughter from school, took her to a toy store, let her buy whatever she wanted and left her at the house just to show them that they were not safe. My God. Instead they reward him, he was unknown then really in the DA's the da's office. the the d th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I was thi. I was thi. I thi. I was was thi. I was thi. I I was thi. thi. thi. I I I I was thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. He was thi. He was thi. He was thi. Hea. Hea. Hea. He thi. Hea. He thi. He thi. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. He was t. Hea. He was t. Hea. He was too. He was too. He was too. He was took. He was took. He was took. He was took. He was this massive trial and that was, and this is my theory, because they could, Evel Younger, the OSS guy could control him. So Bulioce and I had two or three other things like that but he was involved in through the years, or he threatened people and broke laws. I knew he was capable of anything he wanted to, he wanted to be to hurt me. So he was the only one that really scared me. But when he died in 2016, I was devastated because I really wanted him to be alive when the book came out. I really wanted him to answer,

Starting point is 01:17:31 you know, to all the charges I was bringing up. Did any of his family hit you back? saying that it was lies or anything like that? Well, when the book came out in June of 2019, for about three or four months, I was getting threats from one person, and they claimed that they were in the Boliosi family. And I believe they may have been. I don't know if it was a guy or a girl, but based on those threats, I decided it had to be a teenager because they were just so immature. No I'm standing outside your window I'm watching you right now I'm going to kill you how could you do this to Vince and I just saved everything and you know I never wanted to call the police I just thought it was

Starting point is 01:18:17 stupid but I never found out who it was they finally stopped like the following fall and his kids never heard from them his wife Gail who I you know knew a lot because I was going over that I've been to the house and met her she was the one that the publisher was you know because they said they said to me you know don't think we're not going to get sued even though he's dead because what's valuable to the buliosies is his book and my book takes it apart the the the th th th th th th it th it th it th it th it th it th it th it th it th it th it th it th it th it th it th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the they they the the the the the the they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they the took took took took took took took took took took took took took took the the the the they they they they they they they they they's valuable to the bullioses is health or skelter and my book his book and my book takes it apart so they say Gail bulliosey Vince's widow could sue us for you know basically she could

Starting point is 01:18:56 claim everything I did was a lie and it's not true so they could still sue us but she never never did nobody we didn't get a single lawsuit filed and there are lots of people in my book, the doctors at the clinic, certain cops that were also alive when the book came out, but nobody's filed a suit yet, knock on wood. Let's hope it doesn't happen because it's a great book and you know, if you can take parts of it and I know you're not paying attention to a lot of stuff going on today, but you can see this everywhere. Yeah, I love these people that can read a book like this and not project it into modern times, you don't know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:19:32 It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable how people just are like goldfish and nothing that in the past matters. Everything's just, whatever's right in front of them is the only thing that's happening. And, you know, it just sucks, man, because we definitely have a system of, you know, whether it's the crack being brought in by our intelligence services, to flood our ghettos and cause crime to accelerate to the hippie movement, being demonized by this stuff with LSD and acid. It's just, there's been an invisible hand that's caused a lot of chaos.

Starting point is 01:20:09 And I think people are waking up to it more and more, but a lot of damage is done and a lot of lives have been affected. And, you know, we've had to go through the, you know, the drug wars. I mean, this probably was a giant part of starting to crank up the drug war because. And. And. And, and the, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is. And, is. And, is. And, is. And, is. And, is. And, is. And, is.s. they. they. they. they. toda. toda, is. today, they. they. they. the they. the they. the to crank up the drug war because we gotta stop the war on drugs because a crime and you're like, you know, I mean like if you want to stop the drug war, stop supplying the drugs. That seems to be it. And they're not doing it so. Or fucking giving them LSD and fucking tweak at the same time. Yeah, I mean like that's that's giving them the drugs, but I want to say Tom You can give them Mellis D though, but not all the drugs are bad. You said what I said in a

Starting point is 01:20:47 English as a second language voice and I appreciate that. Tom, thank you so much for coming on. I've been wanting to have you on for a very long time and the fact that we were able to make it happen really to tha tha the that means that means that means that means that means that means that means really means that means that means really means that means that means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means a that means means a that means a that means a that that that that that that that that that that that that thi. thi. thi. the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means a to mean means a to mean means a to me me means a to me means a to me means a to me means a to me to me to me to to me to to to me. that. that. that. that. that. thi. thi. thi you so much. And again, is there anywhere you want them to go check out? Or I'll put the link in. Is there anywhere you'd like them to buy the book more than other? How about that? Is there any place? Well, I always say the old trope, you know, if you have a small independent bookstore. And it's funny because I went on, I don't, I th and I th and I thau, I th and I than, I th and I than, I than, I than, I th, I than, I than, I than, I than, I than, than, th like, than, than, the the th like, the the the to like, th like, to like, the the to like, the the the to like, like, the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the to the that, that, that, that, the that, the the the like, the the the like, the the the thi., thi. the thi. thi. th guy, Joe Rogan. Yeah, I've heard of him. We know about him. We know.

Starting point is 01:21:25 Yeah, so I went on his podcast a year or two ago, and that was kind of a game changer. And a lot of people, the book has been selling well ever since then. So I try to tell people to go to small bookstores. Here's another thing, and I shouldn't shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't say this, the audio book I'm not happy with. The guy did a good job for, you know, but he didn't, he reads a lot of stuff kind of at the surface level and like if I'm making fun of myself, I'm very self-deprecating, he read it,

Starting point is 01:21:55 you know, and the audio version is me being serious and stuff. Why didn't you do it? Why didn't you read it? My agent talk me out of it. The the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th? The th. The th. The th. The th. The th. The th. The th. The th. The th. The th. The th. The thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiolioliolid, thiolid, thiolid, thiolid thi, thithe the the th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, th, th, the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the p. the p. the publisher. the publisher. the publisher, the publisher, the publisher, the publisher, the publisher, the publisher, the publisher, the publisher, the. thr- I thr-a. thr-a. thr-a. th. th. the publisher, the publisher, going to want to edit and change and he was right, but I should have done it. Or I should have, you know, had a long talk with the guy that read it before just to tell him, you know, that when I sang something like, ironically, that there's irony there, and if you read it opposite that. The other reason I don't like people have in the audio book is I think the most important part of the book is the 60 or 70 pages of end notes at the back of the book where I cite all my sources and it's really important when you're writing

Starting point is 01:22:50 a book like this about conspiracy that you show your hand and nothing in my book isn't sourced. And also I do that thing authors do, which is cheating by putting even more information in the footnotes that you couldn't really fit into the main narrative. But you know, I'm happy if you get it. People love, a lot of people have told me they love the audio thing, so it might just be my own personal weird lack of objectivity for something like that. But yeah, if they get the book, I'm happy. And I like people going on my Instagram or Facebook, because they can see documents, they can hear my audio tapes that I've done and snippets and I have a lot of stuff that didn't end up in the book

Starting point is 01:23:31 and it's only stuff about the book in the case. It's nothing about me or my family, so. Well, it is an excellent book, and I loved it, and I read it quite for the cover, which is, you know, I buy a lot of books, I don't finish all of them and I finish yours, so I hope people take a moment to read it and check it out and you know, just like Joe Rogan, you're going to get flooded with tens of people buying your books. So, no, we'll get you a lot of people because, you know, they're pretty passionate about the show and they definitely like to go out and support all of our guests. So I appreciate you Tom.

Starting point is 01:24:08 I'm looking forward to your next book whenever that happens and we will talk to you soon. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you guys. I appreciate it. You're the tickets and everything like that. I love you very much. Thank you so much for your support. Hope you enjoy the show and we'll talk to you soon. We go deep home boy.

Starting point is 01:24:35 Aaron, open your mic. Drink from the fountain of knowledge. There's lizard people everywhere. That's some interdimensional... Get it. Wake up, Aaron! This is only the beginning. Dude, you just blew my mind.

Tin Foil Hat With Sam Tripoli - #560: The Chaos Of The CIA And The Charles Mason Murders with Tom O'Neill

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