Titanic: Ship of Dreams - 7. Women and Children First

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

The chaos continues, as more lifeboats leave the ship half empty. Fights break out on deck over the rapidly dwindling number of spaces. Titanic’s band strike up a tune, trying to keep everyone calm. A senior officer pulls a gun on a teenager. And the iceberg claims its first victim… A Noiser podcast production. Narrated by Paul McGann. Featuring Josyann Abisaab, Stephanie Barczewski, Jerome Chertkoff, James Delgado, Julian Fellowes, Tim Maltin, Susie Millar, Claes-Göran Wetterholm.Special thanks to Southampton Archives, Culture and Tourism for the use of the Eva Hart archive. Visit SeaCity Museum for an interactive experience of the Titanic story (seacitymuseum.co.uk) Written by Duncan Barrett | Produced by Miriam Baines and Duncan Barrett | Exec produced by Joel Duddell | Sound supervisor: Tom Pink | Sound design & audio editing by Miri Latham and George Tapp | Assembly editing by Dorry Macaulay and Anisha Deva | Compositions by Oliver Baines and Dorry Macaulay | Mix & mastering: Cody Reynolds-Shaw | Recording engineer: Joseph McGann | Nautical consultant: Aaron Todd. Get every episode of Titanic: Ship of Dreams two weeks early and ad-free by joining Noiser+. Click the subscription banner at the top of the feed to get started. Or go to noiser.com/subscriptions Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's a few minutes before 1am on the night of April the 14th 1912. RMS Titanic is stopped dead 400 miles off the coast of Newfoundland. The ship's passengers wearing bulky cork lifejackets over their clothes are now thronging the boat deck where the procedure for loading the lifeboats is underway. As crew members coax anxious women and children into the small wooden craft, Titanic's giant funnels are still venting exhaust. The noise is deafening, overwhelming. The crew have to use hand gestures to communicate with each other. And then, suddenly, as the last gasps of steam escape from the rapidly cooling boilers,

a deathly silence falls over the ship. Everyone can hear themselves think again. The cheery strains of ragtime music performed by Titanic's band are clearly audible for the first time. The instructions given by the officers loading the lifeboats can be understood. For now at least, the passengers are behaving in an orderly fashion. The officers may have armed themselves with revolvers ten minutes earlier, but it doesn't look like they'll have to use them. By 1am, Titanic has taken on more than 15,000 tons of water. Mathematically, her designer has calculated, the ship is doomed. But she's sinking so slowly that there's little sense of panic up on deck.

Eight decks below in boiler room five, it's a different story. Water is pouring in through a two-foot gash in the wall. It's coming from boiler room six, which is already completely submerged. Now the engineers are trying to stop the same thing happening in number five. But thanks to the clouds of steam coming off the boilers, they can see only a few feet ahead. Leading fireman Fred Barrett hauls open a manhole in the floor, attempting to access the pump valves.

But when assistant engineer Jonathan Shepard runs over to help, he falls into the hole, breaking his leg. Shepard's colleagues carry him into the adjoining pump room before returning to their work. The pumps help a little, but it's not enough. The bulkhead between boiler rooms five and six is failing. In less than fifteen minutes, it gives way altogether. Thousands of gallons of water pour in. The engineers race for the ladders that lead to the deck, clambering up as the water level rises beneath them. But no one thinks of poor Jonathan Shepherd with his broken leg. He is still down below in the pump room, unable to move. At 1.10am, Shepard drowns, the first victim of the iceberg that sinks the Titanic.

From the Noisa Podcast Network, this is Titanic Ship of Dreams, Part 7. While chaos reigns down in the boiler rooms, up on deck, Titanic's senior officers are doing their best to calmly usher passengers into the lifeboats. On the starboard side, First Officer William Murdoch has already lowered two boats into the water, numbers five and seven. But his counterpart on the port side, Second Officer Lightoller, has yet to launch his first.

In the absence of clear instructions from Captain Smith, the two men are approaching the same job very differently. Specifically when it comes to the old seafaring mantra, women and children first. Klosjörn Vetterholm. Light hauler on the port side, he allowed no men into the boats. There were men standing by the boat and they refused to enter. And they died, of course.

On the starboard side, First Officer William Murdoch allowed anybody into the boats. And actually, afterwards, over 80% of all the surviving male passengers, they had their lives thanks to William Murdoch. For Murdoch, the priority is getting the boats lowered as quickly as possible. Sometimes that means allowing male passengers in, to encourage their wives and children to go with them. Tim Moulton. What we find is Murdoch, who's actually allowing men to go in lifeboats with women and children, that allows families to load boats very, very quickly.

Whereas Lighthuller on the other side of the ship was splitting up families, which is taking a long time and causing a lot of people to reject getting in a boat at all. So more people were saved from Murdoch's side of Titanic than they were from Lightoller's side of Titanic. Each man believes he's interpreting Captain Smith's order correctly. And in fact, there's no formal naval rule

governing the treatment of women and children in an emergency. Allowing them to leave a sinking ship first is more of a custom. It goes back to something called the Birkenhead tradition, where the warship Birkenhead sank close to the South African coast, and there were relatives to the soldiers on board. Six decades before Titanic, HMS Birkenhead went down, with the loss of almost 700 lives. But thanks to the noble sacrifice of the men on board, every single woman and child survived. Because they did not have enough lifeboats, they got the orchestra on the ship to stand

up and play songs, marches. When women and children were put into the boats, this was shark-infested waters and therefore very, very few of the men survived. The military men there sort of stood to attention and the women got off in the cutter and they were saved. So since then, that became the rule. There wasn't actually a real rule, if that makes sense. Every English schoolboy knew the Birkenhead story and they had the Birkenhead tradition. In the light of this Birkenhead tradition,

it was very important to tell the same story about the Titanic. What Titanic's senior officers are discovering, however, is that getting people into the lifeboats isn't as easy as it sounds. Even now, not everyone wants to take their chances bobbing around all night on the pitch-black ocean, especially if they can't bring their husband along. One of those resisting calls to disembark is first-class passenger Lucy Duff Gordon She's been spooked by the firing of Titanic's distress rockets And is refusing to leave her husband's side

Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon makes a suggestion Perhaps he might be allowed to enter the boat too And reassure his wife. I wish you would, First Officer Murdoch tells him. Officially, the Duffcordons have been traveling under aliases, as Mr. and Mrs. Morgan, but their identities aren't much of a secret as far as Titanic's wealthiest passengers are concerned. Sir Cosmo is a baronet, educated at Eton, his wife a famous lingerie designer with a shop in London's West End.

She and her sister Eleanor are used to moving in society circles, even if their blood doesn't exactly run blue. Eleanor is the Jilly Cooper of her day, known for her outrageous romantic novels. Julian Fellows, creator of Downton Abbey, and of the novel Snobs. She and her sister, Eleanor Glynn, the novelist, were sort of, in a sense, masquerading as toffs.

They were pretend toffs. And she'd married her rather dull baronet in order to give her a title. But really, she was a dressmaker. She was a designer, quite a talented one, and quite a leader of fashion. But that was not what the Duchess of Buccleuch was doing at the time, I can assure you. And she liked to pass herself off as very grand when she wasn't really. And I think that that made her coarse in her emotions. And her selfishness is still shocking. The Duffgordons flee the sinking Titanic in a boat carrying only 12 people. Its stated capacity is 40. I think her set of priorities was questionable.

She wouldn't wait. She wouldn't allow the boat to wait until more people came on the deck, even if they were men, and got on board. She insisted on going when there were only 12 of them in it. But Lifeboat One isn't the only one lowered well under capacity. Professor Stephanie Boczewski. Some of them go off less than a third full.

And part of that's because early on they can't really convince people to get into the lifeboats. People are like, why would I want to get off this nice warm ship and go out there in the freezing cold ocean? The ship seems a lot safer. But part of it also is because the lifeboats are not being loaded in a very kind of orderly fashion. To be fair to those loading the boats, it may also be hard to tell

when they're fully loaded. The board of trade said you could fit 60 people in a lifeboat, but they didn't take into account the sweep of the oars, which took up a lot of space. In other words, if you filled the boat, you couldn't then move the oars, which is not a very sensible situation if you think you've got a 500-mile row ahead of you. Also, it was very cold that night, and the Board of Trade didn't take into account motoring clothes and coats. Some people got in the lifeboats with luggage and even a small dog, for example. So, in other words, the sort of general chaos of it was not taken into account by the Board of Trade. And in fact, lifeboats that, when you count them up on land, look to have been quite empty, would have actually looked much more full at the time. Unfortunately, the lifeboat drill

scheduled for that morning was cancelled by Captain Smith, and these boats have never actually been lowered with people in them. One reason for getting the lifeboats away, in some cases quite empty, was because they felt that the falls might not take the weight of everyone. They felt it was safer to load them more fully when they were actually buoyant on the surface of the sea. So that's why a lot of the boats were lowered when they weren't full. But I do believe, controversially, I think Lightoller did have in mind that he wanted to leave a few spaces in the lifeboats for crew, and there were 900 crew, to be able to swim into the lifeboats afterwards.

As more and more lifeboats are deployed, Titanic's upper decks are getting more cramped. An hour has passed since Captain Smith ordered the women and children to abandon ship. Many of them took a while to get the memo, but gradually a sense of urgency is brewing. Everybody is in a sort of state of shock, and it's a kind of gradually dawning shock, right, because it doesn't happen sort of instantaneously.

The Titanic disaster, they have two hours and 40 minutes over which the sinking getaway goes from everything's fine to the ship is under the water. And I think people's behavior evolves over that time. I think different people react in different ways. At 1.23am, seven-year-old Eva Hart clambers into lifeboat 14. As everyone knows, the tragedy of the Titanic was the fact that she hadn't got enough lifeboats.

So it was only the people who were there first that got into a lifeboat. And we were there in plenty of time. The boats weren't even being lowered when we got up onto the deck. And my father went away and he came back and said, oh, I've spoken to one of the officers. They're going to launch the lifeboats, but you're all back on board for breakfast. And so thinking that this was what was going to happen, they started to lower the boat, and my father put my mother and I without any trouble at all. Boat 14 is on the port side of Titanic, under the supervision of Second Officer Lightoller, meaning there's no room for Eva's father. He told me to hold my mummy's hand and be a good girl, that's all he said.

He made the attempt to get in himself, he helped other women and children and that was it. I never saw him again. By now it's not just first and second class passengers like the Harts who were hoping to board the lifeboats. Some steerage travellers too have made their way up onto the boat deck, very much against the odds. The lifeboats were located on the promenade deck and that is where first and second class were. Now the third class promenade deck was at the stern, where there were no lifeboats. So there is a structural thing that the third class are having to travel further to get to lifeboats.

Professor Jerome Chertkov, author of Don't Panic! The Psychology of Emergency Egress and Ingress. You need to know how to get to the exits, and you need to have no restrictions on getting there. The first and second class passengers know how to get to the boat deck. The third class passengers, which are down in the lowest part of the accommodation to the ship, had never been allowed to go up to the boat deck. And they had no idea how to get there, and the route was complicated. The ship is a bewildering maze of corridors. Even the officers and the crew of the ship were not, you know, there was a new ship.

Nobody was really familiar with it. So officers who had, you know, great experience at sea would say that they couldn't find their way around the ship. You know, one crewman said that he was on the ship for a week before he really knew his way around. And so trying to get around the ship was very, very difficult. The ship was designed to make it difficult so that steerage class passengers wouldn't accidentally wander into first or second class areas. The first group of steerage passengers have taken an elaborate route. Starting from their cabins on E-Deck,

they've made their way along a small passageway and up two flights of stairs to C-Deck, then out onto the Aftwell Deck, and from there up to the boat deck. Without help, that's a tall order. The third-class passengers that made it out, stewards who were in charge of their cabins, gathered the women and children and said, Follow me, I'll lead you out. Otherwise, they would have no idea that most likely they'd gotten lost wandering around the ship. It's thanks to third-class steward Jonathan Hart that two large groups of steerage passengers do manage to find their way up. But before he can lead any more of them,

Hart is pulled into a lifeboat himself. I met his son, and we talked about it. It was very interesting. Stuart Hart was ordered into boat 15 by First Officer Murdoch. Hart knew that there were still hundreds of people down on Edak who hadn't had a chance to get up yet. He knew that, and he knew how many people down on the deck who hadn't had a chance to get up yet. He knew that. And he knew how many people were on deck but had no chance to get into a boat.

He knew that. And with his memories, he had to live the rest of his life. This episode is brought to you by DAZN. For the first time ever, the 32 best soccer clubs from across the world are coming together to decide who the undisputed champions of the world are in the FIFA Club World Cup. The world's best players, Messi, Haaland, Kane, and more are all taking part. And you can watch every match for free on DAZN,

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you'll have everything you need to get from work to play with confidence this season. Hurry in, employee pricing is on for a limited time. Visit your local GMC dealer for details. By half past one in the morning, it's not just passengers who are appearing on the increasingly crowded boat deck. Firemen, like my great-uncle Jimmy McGann, are emerging from the bowels of the ship as well.

And they are causing quite a stir. A number of these engine room crew flooded up into what was normally passenger areas. And in fact, there is one account where a stoker appears completely black from head to toe in coal dust, but with quite a lot of blood spattered over their face and clothes, and they were missing a number of fingers on one of their hands. So I think it gives you a picture of how shocking that time was when people were getting ready to get in the lifeboats.

On Titanic's upper decks, the assembled masses are a motley bunch, sporting a wide variety of outfits. Financier Benjamin Guggenheim has emerged from his cabin in his best evening dress, declaring that he intends to die as a gentleman. White Star boss Bruce Ismay, meanwhile, is still in his pyjamas, with a suit and coat hastily thrown on top of them. As first class passenger Helen Candy writes, it was a fancy dress ball in Dante's Hell. Normally men like my great uncle Jimmy would never be sharing deck space with the ship's wealthiest passengers.

Titanic has always been carefully segregated, a microcosm of Edwardian society. From the ultra-rich luxuriating upstairs, to the dirt-poor migrants down in steerage. And never the twain shall meet. But now, in extremis, cracks are beginning to show. The first and second class, actually, were treated in a fairly similar way on the Titanic. I think one first-class woman died, and I think a couple of women in second class died. But otherwise, they all got off. The really scandalous treatment was steerage.

Susie Miller. If you're a third-class male or one of the crew, you're more than likely not to have survived, you know. But that's just the way it was then, you know. It was women and children first, and the geography of the ship also fav favored those who were traveling in first class. It's not malicious intent. It's not that people in steerage are being locked down below and not allowed up to the upper decks.

They just had massive disadvantages in trying to get up. And nobody thought about them, right? Nobody thought about, oh my God, there's all these people down there in steerage. What are we going to do? We've got to go down there and we've got to help them and we've got to get them up. For the 150-odd Lebanese migrants on Titanic, the situation is even more dire. Dr. Josiane Abisab.

All of the instructions were being given in English and the Lebanese passenger really didn't understand what was going on, which added to their confusion and to the chaos. There were many, many who did not speak English, who didn't understand a word, what was being told to them or what they were supposed to do and so on and so on. So many remained below deck,

not knowing what happened. I'm sure they probably felt that they were not treated the same way as first class and second class passengers. And in fact, the survival rates for each class do speak for themselves as far as this, you know, discrimination, I would say. Overall, first-class passengers have the highest survival rate, at 62%. That's compared to 41% for second class, and just 25% for steerage. And what about the famous women and children first? Female passengers do survive at a rate of about three to one, 73%, compared to just 19 for men. But among the 135 children on board, just over half of them survived the disaster. And all but one of the children who dies is from steerage.

I mean, certainly first class children would have been the absolute priority, you know, I think followed by first-class women. As to someone would have valued the life of a steerage-class child over a first-class man, I mean, I hate to say it, but I suspect that they would not have. I think today, obviously, we would see that as, you know, get the kids in the boat first of any class, and I think that's something that very much would have changed. But at the time, I think that would have been a more difficult question for people to wrestle with.

It's very controversial to say this, but a lot of third class who died chose not to get in the boats. And they did that for a very specific reason. It's because a lot of first and second class were traveling alone or as a couple, which makes it much easier to make executive decisions about who's going to survive and who isn't. Whereas a lot of third class were bringing everything they owned to the new world, and they were traveling many of them. So the Goodwins, for example, had the largest cabin in third class right at the stern of the ship. And all eight of them died on the Titanic. And I think that's because they wouldn't have been allowed to send up to the boats their sort of teenage children.

They would be counted as men and counted as adults in 1912. And so they elected to stay together. Now, of course, once the ship properly starts tipping up and they realize it's all terrible, these families then flood onto the deck. And really, people are really shocked to see that there are so many women and children still on the ship because they believed genuinely that really all the women and children they could see had gone on the lifeboats. So suddenly, when this massive humanity comes up from third trials at the end, you know, cynically you could say they had chosen to stay there, they had been given the opportunity,

but you can absolutely see why they decided to stay together. And it's those women and children that come up and that's a lot of the reason why 50 children died on the Titanic. By half past one in the morning, the orderly atmosphere on the boat deck is giving way to something more charged. At first, everything's very calm, right? The passengers can't really believe this is happening. As, obviously, the night goes on, more panic starts to set in, and the officers are trying to deal with that as well. Eva Hart and her mother are still sitting in lifeboat 14,

waiting for it to be lowered down to the ocean. But 5th Officer Lowe, in charge of filling the vessel, is having trouble maintaining order. As he steps into the boat and gives the command to lower away, a boy of about sixteen jumps in after him. Several of the women make space for the stowaway. He crouches by their feet, and they do their best to hide him with their long skirts. But Lowe has spotted the teenager. He pulls out his Browning revolver. I give you ten seconds to get back onto the ship before I blow your brains out, he warns him.

A girl, not much older than Eva, tries to intervene. Please don't shoot the poor man, she begs Lowe. He lowers his weapon, then quietly addresses the teenager. For God's sake, be a man, he tells him. Reluctantly, the boy clambers back onto Titanic. The lifeboat begins moving down again, faster this time. Several of those on board are weeping. But now another male passenger decides to try his luck. He leaps

over the guardrail into the lifeboat. Lowe grabs the interloper by the collar and forces him back on deck. A group of angry men set upon him, landing heavy blows. Lowe fires his gun down the side of the ship. The bullet whizzes into the water. If any man jumps into this boat, I will shoot him like a dog, he shouts. The lifeboat crashes onto the ocean, showering the occupants with ice-cold water. I can only tell you I was terrified. It's quite impossible to use another word for it. I was absolutely terrified. Lowe begins rowing Lifeboat 14 away from Titanic.

Up on the port side of the boat deck, his boss, Second Officer Lightoller, is enforcing the rules as strictly as ever, though so far he hasn't had to use his pistol. At 1.35am, John Jacob Astor, the richest man on Titanic, and one of the richest in the world, is helping his wife Madeline into lifeboat number four. She is four months pregnant, and her health is precarious. Aster asks if he might be allowed to accompany his wife, the same request Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon made forty minutes earlier on the other side of the ship. Lightoller respectfully refuses. He asked if he could join her in the boat because she was pregnant,

and they turned him down. As far as Lightoller is concerned, there must be no exceptions. It's easy to say that privileged people feel more entitled, which I think they do. There is always a satisfaction when you're in a house and the red cord is unhooked for you, or it says private. In you go. John Jacob Astor is not a man who's used to hearing the word no. I think there are people who do not see the rules as applying to them. I mean, I always remember once I was in Ronda with my mother and brothers, and we were going in to see a bullfight. And there were crowds and police and this and this and this.

And there was a message saying in Spanish, pedestrians this way, whatever. And my mother was marching us in the opposite direction. And I said, but mummy, it says pedestrians this way. She said, they don't mean us, dear. And I never forgot that, because I thought, oh, I get it. There are rules, but they don't apply to everyone. And I can't say that much in life has taught me different. And yet, right now, faced with the implacable second officer Lightoller,

all the money in the world won't do Aster a bit of good. Titanic's wealthiest passenger will have to take his chances on deck, along with the lowliest greasers and stokers. I think stories that illustrate the wheel of fortune, how you can be up one minute and down the next, always have a certain fascination. There is something about people who believe they are untouchable, and there they are, grabbing a life belt and hoping not to be frozen to death. And that, I think, was rather extraordinary.

When it comes to the Astors, Lightoller is spared any pushback. But on the question of whether teenage boys count as children or men, Lightoller's position is more controversial, and other passengers are willing to challenge him on it. As John J. Gabasta retreats from boat number four, Emily Ryerson and her children step forward. The Ryersons are rushing home to New York to bury their eldest son, who died in a car accident six days earlier.

There's no question of Emily's husband, Arthur, getting into the boat with her. He stands back, watching his wife, their two daughters, and their youngest son, John, approach the railing. Lightoller stops them, holding up his arm. The boy can't go, he declares. Arthur Ryason is furious. The boy goes with his mother, he insists. He's only 13. Reluctantly, Lightoller backs down.

Young John climbs into the lifeboat. But as he does so, the passengers hear Lightoller muttering to himself, no more boys. This sort of ruthless gender code, right? That Lightoller, again, is the one who interprets the order as women and children only, right? And he interprets it in a very strict fashion. So I think it's interesting that that kind of level of ruthless genderizing, right, of who should live and who should die in terms of the Titanic story.

In 1912, you were a man. If you were over 13, you could work down a mine or something like that. A few years before that, in the late Victorian period, you had children climbing up chimneys when they were absolutely tiny, and you had people down mines when they were six or whatever. I think at the time, he's regarded as an officer who followed orders and did what he was supposed to do. What women and children only meant on the port side of Titanic was pretty much no teenagers. If you were 14, 15, 16, you would not be allowed to get in a boat with your mother. And as a result, a lot of people with families chose not to leave in lifeboats. I mean, to me, 100 years later, it seems rational to put men in. If all the women and children on the boat deck are loaded,

and there are no more women and children, why not put the men in? But I think Leichtoler was worried that if he said to one man, get in, then there are 100 men standing around. We got a problem. He probably kills 100 people by not letting any men in the boats. It's idiotic, right? I mean, he's literally launching boats with empty seats in them because he's adhering to this gender code so strictly.

But I'm not sure that's an indictment of him. I think it's an indictment of the sort of standards of the time. Men enjoyed a lot of privileges and powers that women simply didn't have, but the price they sort of paid for that, right, was they were expected to kind of chivalrously step aside in a case like this. No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. A hundred years on, it's hard to sympathize with Lytol's

brutal inflexibility, regardless of the social customs of the time. Some commentators have gone so far as to call his behavior psychopathic. But there is another possibility, that his incredibly strict approach is actually a response to stress. Psychologists have studied the effect of high arousal, and usually the main effect of high arousal is, one, your perception is narrow. So instead of taking in everything that's around you, you tend to focus on one thing that stands out to you and concentrate on that at the exclusion of others. And the second problem with high arousal is that you tend to consider only one alternative.

So you're focused on one thing, you only consider that one possibility of what to do, and other alternatives you tend not to consider. With Lightoller, I think it is quite possible that because of the stress of the situation, he was absolutely carrying out orders to the letter of the book at that time. Basically, I think this is an example of how when the chips are really down and things are really serious, you behave extremely properly. And I think that's what was going through the minds of the officers and senior personnel on Titanic throughout the tragedy. I'm not saying he wasn't a brave man.

I think he was. I don't think any of his mistakes were deliberate or unkind, but they were costly. He had this theory that the men were going to jump into the sea and swim out to the half-full boat. Well, with the temperature of the sea, the men were going to last about a minute in the water. He hadn't thought that through at all.

And the business of not letting, you know, 15 and 16-year-old boys onto the lifeboat. I don't think he was a bad man at all, but those were errors of judgment that cost many lives. A lot more people should have got off that ship in the boats they had. And the fact that they sailed away, not even half full, was his fault. Lightoller's dogmatism undoubtedly costs many lives. But the strict social mores of the time also explain why Titanic doesn't descend into outright chaos.

Women and children first may be patchily applied in practice, but the ideal is one that everyone can get behind Many of Titanic's male passengers willingly give up their own chances of survival To help those whom they believe to be more deserving of being saved You have to understand that these were all members of a different civilization from our own. And they had been brought up with certain rules and moral duties. In a way, it's like telling the 16th century not to be religious. It's too deep in their fiber for it to seem possible for them to ignore it, even in extremists. And they couldn't.

I think we are a very selfish generation. I don't think we would stand back for the women and children first. I think a lot of people, too many people, would be elbowing each other out of the way to get on the boats. Whereas they were different. They had a strong sense of duty. I think in some ways, you know, we still see women and children first as a kind of noble idea, right? We haven't, even in an age of more feminism and more gender equality,

we haven't entirely lost that sense that the world was a better place when people had these kind of noble ideas about chivalry. I think that the behavior on board the Titanic actually what strikes you when you get into the detailed research is the extraordinary selflessness and bravery that you witness. Benjamin Guggenheim has been traveling with his French mistress. Now, while she makes her way to a lifeboat, he and his valet Victor Giglio appear on deck, dressed in their finest white tie and tails. Guggenheim asks a steward to pass on a message to his wife in New York.

Tell her, I've done my best in doing my duty. He puts on his tuxedo famously, right? And he says, we are dressed in our best and prepared to go down like gentlemen. Bringing his servant with him into this, right? I mean, does the servant really have any choice? Could the servant say, hey boss, you know, I'd really rather go get in a lifeboat. Do I have to be part of this like noble impulse of yours to do this? You know, I always feel very much for the servant in that story. Then there's Isidore and Ida Strauss, the owners of Macy's department store. At 67 years old, the white-bearded Isidore is one of the oldest passengers,

old enough that the usual rules might bend to accommodate him. I'm sure nobody would object to an old gentleman like you getting in, one of the other passengers tells him. But Isidor refuses to accept special treatment. I will not go before the other men, he replies. When he tells his wife of four decades to get in a boat, she too refuses. She intends to stay on board with him. Ida Strauss, when given an opportunity to get in a lifeboat, says, No, I have lived my entire life with my husband. I'm going to die with my husband here. Ida takes off her warm fur coat and gives it to her maid, telling her to get into the lifeboat.

She and Isadora last seen holding hands on the boat deck, waiting for the end. Something we all like to contemplate about the Titanic story is what would we do? If I were on that ship and I were in that moment, what would we do? And we all would like to think, right, that we would be the calm, we would be Ben Hugenheim, you know, or we would be Ida Strauss, you know, that we would be calm and we would be behaving in this impeccable and we would be letting, you know, we would be carefully evaluating like who deserves to live more than us and letting them into the boats and whatever. That's not how most of us would behave, right? Marine archaeologist James Delgado. Titanic, I think, has always been a compelling story because it is, once again, one of those laboratories in which the best and the worst of people come out. For me, some of the most

profound stories are not those just of the ones who heroically did their best or those who were cowardly, but those who just simply sat back and said, this is beyond my control. And that, to me, seems very brave in its own way. The inevitability of death and facing that in a way. I don't think people often resign themselves to death, although I'm 87. At some point in the not-too-distant future, I will be faced with death.

And what can you do but accept it? Everybody dies. At 1.35 a.m., Titanic's designer, Thomas Andrew Andrews is in the first-class smoking room, staring blankly at a painting above the fireplace. Ten minutes earlier, he was hurling wooden deck chairs overboard, attempting to provide rafts for any passenger who might find themselves floating in the ocean. Now, all that energy has deserted him. His lifeboat, which he was wearing earlier in the evening, lies draped over a chair. And he's standing there by the mantelpiece, and the steward says he came in and sawed Andrews and said,

aren't you going to make a try for it, Mr. Andrews? Andrews didn't answer. We would see that now as he was in some kind of catatonic shock. But in 1912, his behavior is interpreted as quite heroic. This is what a man of his class and stature should do. Whether he realizes it or not, Andrews is consigning himself to a much quicker death than he would otherwise endure

floating in the ice-cold water. He'll be dead within a couple of minutes of the ship going under, rather than suffering the agonies of hypothermia on the surface. In fact, the first-class smoking room where Andrews is last seen will be comprehensively destroyed when Titanic goes down. This whole area, included, broke away, disappeared, was a mess afterwards.

Nothing was left. It's like you had taken Harrods in London and broken it in half and spread everything. Spread out over the ocean bottom. Examples which are sometimes cited as suicide seem to be not suicide. If we look at the 9-11 at the World Trade Center, people jumped to their deaths. Suicide? No, I don't think that was suicide.

I think you're faced with either you can get burned alive or you can die by jumping. And so that's your choice. How do you want to die? That's not suicide, the usual sense. It's choosing which step do you want. In the next episode, the final lifeboats depart as desperate passengers scramble for the last few places. Those left behind must decide what to do with the few precious minutes remaining. And at 2.20am, less than three hours after hitting the iceberg, the largest ship in the world plunges 4,000 metres beneath the surface. That's next time. To be continued...