Titanic: Ship of Dreams - Founding Fathers Pt8: Hail to the Chief

Episode Date: July 23, 2026

The USA has its first president. With George Washington leading the new nation forwards, there are high hopes. But a shocking announcement changes everything. Political parties begin to form, old friends become bitter enemies, and election campaigns turn ugly. The threat of violence grows, as a deadly duel claims the life of an American pioneer. And as a big anniversary approaches, two legendary Founding Fathers are about to meet the most poignant of ends… A Noiser podcast production. Narrated by Clarke Peters. Featuring Lindsay Chervinsky, Julius Jefferson, Jane Kamensky, Peter Kastor, Alan Taylor. Special thanks to Dr Andrew Davenport of the Thomas Jefferson Foundation; Freddy Sledge at The Soundhouse Studios. Written and Produced by Edward White | Series Producer: Ed Baranski | Executive Producer: Joel Duddell | Head of Production: Natalie Brook-Reynolds | Script Consultant: Peter Kastor | Sound Supervisor: Tom Pink | Sound design by Oliver Sanders | Assembly editing by Tony Onuchukwu | Compositions by Oliver Baines, Dorry Macaulay, Tom Pink | Mix & mastering by Josh Latham. Get every episode of Founding Fathers: An American Dream two weeks early and ad-free by joining Noiser+. Click the subscription banner at the top of the feed to get started. Or go to noiser.com/subscriptions Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Get a quote at bellair direct.com. It's February, 1801. In Washington, D.C., panic is setting in at the heart of government. The newly built capital building is packed. The place hums with discord. Members of the House of Representatives hold frantic conversations. Rival factions eye each other wearily. There is talk of constitutional gridlock, rigged voting, stolen elections.

Last year, a presidential election was held. Thomas Jefferson had been the favorite, but when the results came in, he was tied with another candidate. It's a complex system. system. But Jefferson's supporters claim that he is clearly the people's choice. Yet his opponent refuses to concede. In fact, it's not even clear how he could legally do so. As a result, the House is called upon to declare the winner. A vote is taken, but the result is a tie. Over and over again, the same thing happens. They might have done this 20 times.

now, maybe 30. Nobody can really remember. The situation is getting desperate. Outside, a large crowd has gathered. They're scared and angry. These last few days, there have been all kinds of rumors. It's said that Jefferson's opponents are trying to rig the vote. They want to illegally install their own president. To Jefferson's supporters, It's not just the outcome of the election that's at stake, but American democracy. Among the crowd, there's talk of violence. Threats are made against anyone who won't respect the will of the people, and it's not confined to Washington, D.C.

In neighboring states, militias are told to stand by. They must be prepared to do their duty. Congress cannot be allowed to trample all over the Constitution. When that document was written less than 14 years ago, it had promised a glorious new age. No party politics, no European-style corruption. That all seems a long time ago now. The integrity of the presidency is under threat. If that goes, everything else will surely follow.

I'm Clark Peters. From the Noisor Podcast Network, this is the final part of Founding. fathers, an American dream. Let's rewind to 1787. Four years after the end of the Revolutionary War, the United States is in crisis. The American political system isn't working. The economy is in tatters. Americans are arguing amongst themselves.

The dream of independence is turning sour. The emergency requires a radical solution. In Philadelphia, delegates from 12 states thrash out a new constitution. It invents a new federal system of governance, empowering central government whilst preserving states' rights. There is a powerful Congress split into two chambers, an independent judiciary, and an elected chief executive called president. Americans feel that there is no place for political parties in this system. All elected officials will be motivated by patriotism, not partisanship, and everything will be supported by checks and balances.

None of it is wholly original. It draws on numerous precedents, yet there has never been anything quite like it. But some think the Constitution goes too far, too much centralized power, an attack on state freedom. Nevertheless, the Constitution is a new state freedom. is overwhelmingly ratified by the American people. Soon after, the new system of government begins. Now, jump forward to April the 20th, 1789.

In Pennsylvania, a mass of people is heading towards Philadelphia. Among them are serving military, veterans of the Revolutionary War, and dozens of ordinary citizens. The procession is led by a white horse. Its rider is George Washington. Ahead of him today is the Skul Cull River. Stretching across it is a bridge, festooned with decorations. Flowers and greenery, flags of various states,

and large patriotic banners. Washington and his followers crossed the bridge. On the other side, they encounter a group of people. Local Philadelphians arranged in lines along the roadside. It's the kind of scene that has played out in numerous cities over the past five days. Washington is on a slow, steady journey from his home in Virginia to New York City. New York is, for now, the home of the federal government. Soon it will relocate to Philadelphia, but only temporarily.

An entirely new capital city is being built further to. south, but we'll get to that later. What's important right now is that Washington is on his way to New York. There he will be inaugurated as the first president of the United States of America. There was only one serious candidate for the role. At the recent election, George Washington won the vote in every state. His journey to New York is a celebration, but this is not a royal procession. There are no gold carriages, no servants carrying sedan chairs, and King is the very last thing Washington wants to be. Professor Peter Castor. By the time the delegates gathered at the Constitutional Convention in 1787, the notion of a king is off the table, but that left open

the question of executive authority. They said, we need somebody who will not be corrupt like a king, but will be above party. And then there's got to be the practical question of leadership. And then they said, we also, in the absence of a king, need a national symbol. So they realized that George Washington would accomplish all of these goals. There wouldn't be a king, but there would be a unifying individual. And as president of the United States, he faced just about every difficult decision a president can face. And more often than not, he made the right decision. And the first right decision he made

was to say the office of the president needs to enjoy authority, but it cannot mirror the pomp and circumstance of a king. The lavish trappings of royalty are left to the British. George Washington will be known as plain Mr. President.

But Americans still want at least a little spectacle on big occasions. So, on April the 30th, 1789, Washington walks out onto the balcony of Federal Hall, New York City, the current venue of Congress. Dressed in a simple, dark brown suit and wearing his dress sword, Washington kisses the Bible. His vice president, John Adams, stands by his side. Washington places his hand over his heart and takes an oath. And with that, his presidency begins.

He bows to the crowd and heads back inside. There's work to be done. A few weeks later, President Washington is back at Federal Hall. The building has been recently expanded. On the outside, there are classical columns and an image of an American eagle. Inside, Washington sits silently. He listens as Vice President Adams addresses the Senate on vital issues of the day. When Adams finishes, Washington looks expectantly at the Senators. In this new

system of government, they are to act as the president's advisors. But nobody utters a word. Perhaps they're intimidated by Washington's legendary status. For whatever reason, none of them wants to risk saying the wrong thing. Washington is infuriated. He will never again returned to the Senate for Council. Instead, he forms a team of five advisors, a cabinet, like the one that surrounds the British Prime Minister. It consists of some of the brightest minds in America. Lindsay Chivinsky.

The cabinet is the best way to understand presidential leadership, and that is particularly true of George Washington. He had a couple of rules as he was assessing people for cabinet positions. The first was that they had to be experienced and knowledgeable about the subject they were going to be dealing with, which sounds like a duh statement,

but Washington's greatest strength, perhaps, was his ability to surround himself with people that he thought was smarter than him or who knew things he didn't to ask for their input and to be told no. Among this cabinet of wise heads is Alexander Hamilton. During the Revolutionary War,

Hamilton was Washington's trusted aid. Now he will serve the president as Secretary of the Treasury. And as Secretary of State, America's top diplomat, Washington selects another familiar face. His fellow Virginian, Thomas Jefferson. To George Washington, they offered diverse expertise. We look at the picture of Washington's cabinet today and we think, oh, that's five did white guys. but they didn't think that at the time. They understood that only white men of property were considered citizens, really.

But among that group, Henry Knox, Edmund Randolph, Thomas Jefferson, and Alexander Hamilton represented different states, different regions, different economic, religious, educational, cultural backgrounds, and traditions in a way that people really felt at the time. And so when Americans looked at this cabinet or at this administration, they recognized that Washington was trying to represent all the different ways that one could be an American. Yet the differences between them also cause immense friction. Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton disagreed on almost everything that one could disagree upon, and that came from very different backgrounds and very different experiences. Thomas Jefferson was born with literally a silver spoon in his mouth. He was incredibly wealthy from the time he was an infant.

He inherited land and enslaved property as a relatively young man. He had never gone into the military. Hamilton was born to an unwed mother. He lost her at a young age. He kind of had to make it on his own merits. He was always scraping by. And even though he married into a wealthy family, he never had a lot of money. He, of course, had served in the military, so a militaristic sense of all.

honor was very important to him, and he really thought that Jefferson was effeminate and a dandy, whereas Jefferson thought that Hamilton was this warmongering kind of crazy person. To an extent, both were right. But by being in Washington's cabinet and by being with each other so much, they began to view the other as a mortal threat to the future of the nation. At first, Jefferson and Hamilton worked towards common goals. But soon, things go awry. Hamilton wants a strong federal government, a national bank, a powerful standing army.

Jefferson denounces all this as a recipe for tyranny. In fact, he seems ambivalent about the whole project of the new United States. When the Constitution was being cooked up in Philadelphia, Jefferson was thousands of miles away in France. If he had been involved, things might have been different. Professor Alan Taylor Thomas Jefferson was never particularly enthusiastic for the new federal constitution. He's kind of wary of it because he doesn't want to see the creation of a strong central government in the United States. Now Hamilton, he kind of dislikes the Constitution too, but it's because he sees it as too weak.

But once Hamilton is in Washington's cabinet, he's trying to act like a prime minister. He wants George Washington to be the equivalent of a king, mostly a constitutional monarch, and he'll be the brains and he'll be pushing from measures that will further increase the power of the federal government, that will take this new constitution and expand its powers. And for Jefferson, that's horrifying. The Hamilton-Jefferson split has serious consequences. It's a lightning rod for political arguments. and it fosters something that the Constitution had not allowed for,

the creation of political parties. A faction known as the Federalists grows around Hamilton. A rival faction forms around Jefferson, the Democratic Republicans, frequently known as simply the Republicans. The two men embody conflicting visions of the USA. Hamilton's is an important. industrialized and urban, powered by commerce.

Jefferson's idea of America is agrarian at heart, with a focus on states' rights. Hamilton believes America should rebuild bridges with Great Britain. Jefferson would rather support French revolutionaries who are right now overthrowing their monarchy. Hamilton thinks Jefferson is sly, self-righteous, and hypocritical. thinks Hamilton is uncouth and ruthless. Their squabbles are bitter and out in the open. At one point, Washington writes them both letters. He begs them to bury the hatchet, but the enmity is as solid as Plymouth Rock. Jefferson deeply admires Washington, but he worries the president has been duped. To Jefferson's dismay, Washington seems

wedded to Hamilton's agenda. The revolution, thinks Jefferson is being betrayed. At the end of 1793, Jefferson resigns from the cabinet. A little over a year later, Hamilton follows suit. After personal troubles, he wants to return to his lucrative legal practice. And then comes another resignation, one that shocks the world. Summer heats up in FXX. F.S. The Shards.

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Breaking political news is what he lives for. As he reads, there's a knock at the door. In walks an unexpected visitor, a man who introduces himself as a chief aide to President Washington. The aide has no time for small talk. He tells Claypool that the president has requested his presence immediately. Claypool clambers into the back of a carriage. His mind races. Why on earth would the president need to see him so urgently?

Before long, the carriage draws up outside George Washington's mansion. Claypool is spirited to the front door. Inside, the president is waiting. for him. The two are left alone. Washington cuts to the chase. He is giving up power and going home. Once the president's second term ends in a few months, that's it. He will not be seeking a third. A resignation statement has already been drafted. Washington wants Claypool to publish it on Monday morning. Claypool is stunned. In an age in which kings reign until death. Washington is, once again, surrendering power, no strings attached.

It will be the biggest scoop of the editor's career and the most astonishing news in the life of the young nation. Claypool publishes the president's farewell address on September the 19th, 1796. In it, Washington warns about the dangers of political parties. They can produce in his words, cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men who will usurp for themselves the reins of government. Americans are aghast at the news. Public life without George Washington is unimaginable. Yet, Washington's act sets an example that will define the office of president. Jane Komenzky.

There's no more unnatural act than thinking of, we instead of me. An element that carries from his conduct in the war to his conduct in his two administrations as president of the United States is the belief in the value of self-sacrifice rather than self-aggrandizement. The stepping away from power first as the general who puts down his sword and takes up his plow or in fact directs hundreds of enslaved people to take up his plow, but returns to civilian life. And then as the president who won't be king. And you could make a pretty good argument that there are no more essential gestures to

creating the United States than establishing the civilian control of the military, which he does with stepping away after the war, and then the peaceful transfer of public office with a two-term norm that then becomes a legal requirement in the 20th century. There's no United States without him, and there's no institution of the presidency that looks as small our Republican as it does without somebody who is quite so willing to put country above person at the beginning. With Washington out of the picture, attention turns to his replacement. An election campaign begins. Representing the Federalists is Vice President John Adams. His opponent is the Republican candidate, Thomas Jefferson.

The authors of the Constitution said, Our system is so good, and it will provide ways for people's points of view to be heard that we won't have political parties. We will avoid the scourge of political parties because of the beauty and elegance of our Constitution, and they couldn't have been more wrong. Because by 1795, there were already political disputes that were producing political organizations that became political parties. And the problem of this constitutional structure first became clear in the election of 1796.

When Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both ran, it's the first contested presidential election. By then, the two of them were at odds, and the election only heightened that. For decades, Adams and Jefferson have been friends and allies. Now, in 1796, they are adversaries. They stand on opposite sides of an emergent ideological divide, and things are about to get ugly. The election to succeed Washington is full of slander and insult, and the occasional home truth. An anonymous writer accuses Jefferson of having an affair with one of his slaves, which is true. It is also said that if Jefferson wins the election, he will emancipate every slave in the land,

which is untrue. As for John Adams, Jefferson's supporters allege that he wants to make himself king. Not only that, he wants to install his son as his successor, an American monarchy. It'll be like the revolution never happened. In early 1797, the results are finalized. John Adams is the winner. He will be the new president. And according to the election rules of the time,

the candidate who finishes second will be named vice president. That is Thomas Jefferson. It sounds crazy. The two campaigns have spent months trash-talking each other. But these election rules were written with an American utopia in mind, a land in which political parties don't exist, in which love of country trumps everything else. The headache of an Adams-Jefferson government is coming down the pike.

Before that, though, everyone is focused on the transfer of power. To subsequent generations, nothing seems more straightforward. The old president leaves, a new one arrives. But in the 18th century, that's a novel concept. The American people were initially very nervous about this first transition. They had never seen anyone else be president. They didn't know if it would work as an office if the powers could be trusted to anyone else, if the other branches of government would work with someone else in that position,

if the foreign powers around the globe would respect to the United States if Washington wasn't at the helm. And the most recent transition they had witnessed was the French Revolution, which was quite literally characterized by guillotine and blood running through the streets. March the 4th, 1797, is a very important. one of the famous states in American history, but it is one of the most significant. Dressed in a plain black suit, President Washington walks through the streets of Philadelphia to Congress Hall. As he approaches the building, a huge chair breaks out. Inside, the acclaim continues. A few minutes later, John Adams arrives. He's dolled up for his big day. A pearl.

colored suit with lace cuffs and an expensive-looking powdered wig. And then the ceremony begins. Adams takes center stage. Washington stands quietly in the background. Several people are overcome with emotion. Men and women begin to cry. Within a few minutes, it's all over. The United States has a new leader.

The part about this story that I find perhaps the most moving is that after Adams took his oath of office and he walked out of the hall, George Washington walked out behind him. And George Washington had not walked behind another man probably in 30 years because of his unbelievably high stature and social ranking. And he did so intentionally to demonstrate that the office is much bigger than one person, that once you are no longer president, you are a citizen, you are held to the same rule of law as, everybody else. After 22 years of national leadership, George Washington exits the stage. Some harbor hopes that he might return one day, but that is not to be. It's 3 p.m. on December the 18th, 1799. In rural Virginia, a cavalry unit marches slowly down a gentle hillside. Following them is a line of infantry men. A military band plays soft, mournful music.

A distant cannon rumbles every 60 seconds. Behind them, six pallbearers carry a coffin. Inside lies George Washington. For many Americans, Washington embodied their country. Yet four days ago, he passed away, aged 67. A painful infection seems to have been the cause. Apparently, Washington was stoic to the end. Soldiers and cannons aside, there is no grand ceremony.

A few dozen mourners follow the coffin, mainly family and close friends. His wife Martha, however, is absent. Overcome with grief, Mrs. Washington has decided to stay home. The procession reaches the bottom of the hill. The soldiers stand to attention. A clergyman dress head to foot in black steps forward. He conducts the order of burial from the Episcopal prayer book. Then, some of Washington's fellow Freemasons perform solemn rituals.

The coffin is now interred, not in a tomb of marbling gold, but a dark brick vault. This does not look like the best of burglom. burial place for a national hero. And that's exactly why Washington insisted upon it. No statues, no mausoleums, no public monument to one man's ego and ambition. Washington is laid to rest. A final cannon blast rings out. And with that, the mourners turn and walk away. An era has come to an end. Of course, Washington's Republican ideals were not pristine. At the time of his demise, 317 enslaved people toiled under Washington's command. On his Mount Vernon Plantation, high-minded beliefs in liberty always abutted the grim reality of slavery. It's the same

story at the estates of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. That said, Washington never fully closed his mind to an America free of the so-called peculiar institution. During the Revolution, he interacted with ardent abolitionists. He interacted with free black communities in places like Philadelphia and Baltimore and New York and Boston. And most importantly, he saw the incredible valor with which black soldiers fought. It fundamentally changed how he thought about slavery. When he came back to Mount Vernon, he no longer bought and sold people.

He no longer split up families, still had slavery, and he still pursued people who ran away. But he started to think about different ways of managing economic production. He tried to have Scottish farmers come over and rent land and then pay enslaved people, or at this point they would be emancipated to work on their behalf. And when he died, he freed the people that he legally controlled. This is not a perfect outcome, of course, because he could have said a lot while he was president. he could have freed them earlier. But the only reason he was able to when he died

is because he put his estate in such a way that he wasn't in debt. That decades-long commitment to ensure that the estate was not in debt to start to shift towards a different model and to demonstrate change in thinking is what we can hope for of all people and is, I think, an outcome of the revolution

that is often underappreciated but essential for humanity. Original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus Starring Emmy Rossum, Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur.

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Its new home is a purpose-built capital city, Washington, D.C., named in honor of the first president. Its placement is very deliberate, located roughly. halfway on the new nation's north-south axis. It also borders Virginia, the historic power center of Independent America. Four of the first five presidents of the USA are Virginians, but not the man who is in charge right now. President John Adams, Massachusetts to the bone.

On November 1, 1800, he and his wife, Abigail, are in Washington, Together, they cross the threshold of a brand new building. It's a beautiful edifice, a Grand Paladian Mansion. This is their new home, the executive mansion, it's called. Though in time it will be known as the White House. Impressive, though, the building is it's no palace. The rooms are not gaudy or ostentatious. It's the resident of a president, not a king.

The first term of Adams' presidency is nearly at its end. Just yesterday, voting began in the 1800 presidential election. Standing against Adams is his own vice president, Thomas Jefferson, a colossus of American politics, and immensely ambitious. As leading figures of rival political factions, Jefferson and Adams have not been a harmonious team. In particular, they have seriously clashed over the U.S. relationship with France. Throughout the 1790s, America's old ally is gripped by a chaotic revolution.

Jefferson wants to support the French revolutionaries. Adams is wary. He takes steps to curb the influence of French radicals in America. Jefferson calls this tyranny. Tensions between the U.S. and France escalate. At one point, it seems like war might even break out. At this moment, Jefferson does something extraordinary. He goes behind the president's back to have secret discussions with the French government.

Jefferson came remarkably close to treason in that he met with the French minister to the United States and told the French minister basically not to make a deal with Adams because Jefferson was going to be the next president and would give the French more favorable terms. In February, 1801, Adams paces the grounds of the White House. Just like four years earlier, the campaign of 1800 has been bruising. Perhaps the low point was when a Jefferson supporter described Adams as a hermaphrodite, part male, part female. Not physically, but morally. a weak leader who will ruin America.

American presidential elections are not only intense, they are complex. The president is not decided by a direct popular vote. Instead, each state receives a number of electors based on their representation in Congress. It is they who determined the president. When the results of this latest election arrived, Adams is in third place. Ahead of him are two Republicans. Jefferson and Aaron Burr, an impulsive, sharp-elboated New Yorker, just turned 45.

Burr ran to generate northern support for Jefferson. He assumed he would finish second and become Jefferson's vice president. Yet something very weird has happened. Jefferson and Burr are tied in first place. They have exactly the same number of votes. Burr is the junior figure here. Everyone expects him to step aside for Jefferson, but within touching distance of power,

Burr has other ideas. At this moment, something happens to Aaron Burr. All along, he had said, no, no, I'll support Jefferson, we'll make sure he's the one who becomes a president. And at this moment, Burr, who did have ambitions to be president at some point, and said, this is my moment. And also, the states I represent are the future. Pennsylvania, New York, Massachusetts,

these are the economic engines of the Republic. They will support me. Now the real trouble begins. According to the Constitution, it's up to Congress to break the tie. The House of Representatives must vote to decide which of the two Republicans is the winner. The House votes again and again,

And again, more than 30 times the tie remains. Federalists plot. With two Republicans neck and neck, perhaps they can exploit the situation. Maybe they can push through their own candidate instead. Crowds amass outside Congress. State militia are put on alert. The situation is fibrile. Here is where I think Adams really shines, because he actually

exercised restraint. And this is not something we usually celebrate in presidents, but it's so important because he could have inflamed matters. He could have called up the army, which would have been a disaster. He could have tried to interfere in some way, and he didn't. He trusted the branches of government to do their job and to use the constitutional mechanism to sort out this challenge. At this point, someone rather unlikely steps in to resolve the crisis. It's Alexander Hamilton. Alexander Hamilton, who did not hold an elected office in 1800, 1801, Alexander Hamilton,

whose arguments with Thomas Jefferson in the 1790s had really been the spark for the first two political parties. But Hamilton disliked Burr more than he disliked Jefferson. And also, at the end of the day, Hamilton was a patriot. And he said, okay, Jefferson's the better president. And it was Hamilton more than Adams, who was the leader of the federal. party. And he's able to bring critical votes in Congress over to Jefferson. Channeling George Washington, John Adams now performs the great patriotic duty of his life. When he left office, he lost and he went home. And during the transition period, he did everything

in his power to help Jefferson. He invited him over to the White House so that he could meet the staff to talk through the transition process. He instructed his cabinet secretaries to be be helpful and to basically give briefings to Jefferson long before that was required by statute or law. John Adams is neither the most glamorous nor the most celebrated of the founding fathers. But according to some, his contribution is invaluable. He is often overlooked for a couple of reasons. One, he is sandwiched between Washington and Jefferson.

And that's a terrible spot to be in because these are sort of two massive personalities in American history. and so much of what we think we know about Adams that he was quote-unquote vain, that he was difficult or irascible. These are direct quotes from Hamilton and Jefferson, and maybe on this subject they're not the most trustworthy sources. I encourage audiences today to dig in to John Adams

because you might find that he's actually the founder that you really like for today. Privately, however, Adams is deeply wounded. Jefferson has practiced the dark arts of politics, against him. Their decades-long friendship is tarnished. Adams does not attend Jefferson's inauguration. They don't speak for years. In the spring of 1801, Jefferson begins his presidency. His administration proves highly consequential. The Jefferson presidency is a significant turning point for the nation. He famously, in his inaugural address, says, we are all Republicans, we are all federalists. It's the first time that

the president really uses an inaugural address to extend an olive branch to his opponents to try and smooth over the conflict from previous electoral fights. And it establishes a precedent that most presidents have followed. Jefferson was a brilliant politician. When he was not in power, he was much more ideological and willing to hold other politicians to ideological standards. So, for example, in the election of 1800, he campaigned against pretty much everything the federalist did, but once he was president, he retained the U.S. Navy. Turns out having a Navy is useful. He retained the Bank of the United States.

Turns out having a bank is useful. He retained some of the Federalists in power if they were more moderate and good at their job. He was willing to do the expedient thing. And it's Jefferson's administration that secures the Louisiana purchase. A vast stretch of land is bought from France. The size of the USA is done. overnight. Politically, Jefferson has won his battle against Hamilton, although Hamilton's

presence can still be felt. Hamilton's primary victory was economics. So the economic system that Hamilton established in the early 1790s, which established fiscal solvency for the United States, established how its budget would work. That remains in place. Jeffersonians modify it, but they still operate from its premise, and it remained throughout most of the 1990s. century. Yet, it's not Jefferson to whom Hamilton's memory will always be tied. It's to Jefferson's vice president, Aaron Burr. Hamilton and Burr are both New Yorkers.

They have long been political rivals. Over the years, they've developed a bitter animosity. In fact, Burr has a flare for making enemies. In 1801, he enraged to Thomas Jefferson by, attempting to seize the presidency, their relationship quickly sours. So Burr's political ambitions switch focus. He begins campaigning to become governor of New York instead. Hamilton intervenes. A newspaper quotes him calling Burr a dangerous man who cannot be trusted. Burr is incensed. He demands an apology. Hamilton refuses, wanting to restore his wounded honor,

Burr challenges Hamilton to a duel, and Hamilton accepts. So, on the morning of July 11, 1804, the two men arrive at a dueling ground in Weehawken, New Jersey. They each pick a pistol. They stand back to back, take a few steps on the muddy ground, then turn, and fire. Burr's shot strikes Hamilton in the abdomen. War hero, Alexander Hamilton, survived everything the British had to throw at him. But he's finally undone by a fellow American,

who at this stage still happens to be the vice president. It's a strange, awful end, and it says a lot about the political culture of the early republic. dueling is illegal, like cockfighting is illegal, right? It's a sort of old vestige of an honor culture. Hamilton's duel with Burr is not the first duel that Hamilton is involved in, and his son dies in a duel. So there is an honor culture in the family whereby insults need to be avenged in quite formal ways.

And you could see this kind of honor culture as, the opposite side of the coin of Republican virtue, right? That if you're cultivating Republican virtue as Washington and others in early Republic leadership are, you're also extraordinarily sensitive to slights on your reputation as being a virtuous person. On January 1st, 1812, John Adams is at home with his wife Abigail. He's starting the new year by rekindling an old relationship. hunched over his desk, he scribbles a short note to Thomas Jefferson.

The two haven't spoken for 11 years. There's still a lot of bad blood between them. But it's nearly three years since the end of Jefferson's presidency, a perfect time to reflect on the past. It's the start of an extraordinary correspondence. Eventually, Benjamin Rush of Philadelphia, Broker's a kind of truce in a moment worthy of girls in middle school, goes to Adams and says, Jefferson really wants to hear from you, goes to Jefferson and says Adams really wants to hear from you.

And they begin a remarkable late-in-life correspondence. Adams' in his 80s, Jefferson in his 70s. They don't pull their punches with each other, but there is a basis in a human relationship that allows them to tackle hard subjects. And I think what they discover late in life is that what they hold in common is more important than what divides them. But their faith in the American project, their belief in the American project, and their understanding that this very demanding form of constitutional democracy needs to call forth the best of their talents. And the talents of a rising generation gives them more in common than what kept them apart. Over the next 14 years, the two men rebuild their friendship.

They grow old, though the nation they helped to create remains young. Time flies by. Before they know it, Adams and Jefferson can see a milestone on the horizon. It's July 4, 1826. Today, the United States of America celebrates. 50 years ago, Congress passed the Declaration of Independence. Throughout America, half a century of liberty is being recognized. There are parades and parties.

And towns across the country, now a place of 24 states, the declaration is read aloud, just as it had been in 1776. Naturally, it's in Washington, D.C. that the B.C. biggest celebrations take place. At the White House, there has been a day of festivities. Presiding over them is the president, John Quincy Adams, son of John Adams. Adams's senior should be here, but the former president is now 90 years old and in poor health. He's spending this momentous day in the quiet of his home in Massachusetts. In the afternoon, he's He shuffles into his living room.

With great effort, he settles into his favorite armchair. Weak and ailing, he begins to drift away. But then he stirs. His eyes briefly open. And as he catches his breath, he speaks his final words. Thomas Jefferson survives. What Adams doesn't know is that just a few hours earlier, Jefferson also passed away.

The author of the Declaration of Independence had been gravely ill. It seems he willed himself to the 50th anniversary. But once there, he too breathed his last. That both these men should die on the same special day is remarkable, yet entirely fitting. They were once bound together by the common cause of independence. Then they came to advance very different ideas of what the USA should be. Yet, in old age, they rediscovered common ground.

As Americans, as people were the shared past, present, and future. Their friendship became symbolic of this goal of national unity, because there were no states that seemed more at odds than Virginia and Massachusetts. And no two people who seemed more. than Jefferson and Adams. And if they could find common cause in later life, then, of course, people could say, well, all Americans can. In the following centuries,

the story of America's founding will be endlessly revisited and re-examined. The 200th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence arrives in 1976. It's a time of huge celebrations, but also something else. The Founding Fathers, the Constitution, the Presidency, they are all subject to wildly different interpretations. One was that the Revolution was this glorious moment, and that was very much about the Founding Fathers. But then there were people who were saying,

it's all a lie. There's a wonderful old movie from the late 90s called Gazed and Confused, and it's all about these kids on the last day of school in 1976, where their history teacher says, before you get swept up in all this bicentennial brouhaha, don't forget that this was all about a bunch of slave-holding white guys who didn't want to pay their taxes. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in between.

The American Revolution was a popular movement. Americans of all backgrounds seized it, and they made of it what they wanted it to be. It's fine to talk about founding fathers who led that movement, but the movement only succeeded because of the large number of people at all levels who joined in on it. What I like is that more recently people started to use the term the founders, and it refers to a much larger cast of characters who helped to create the United States. Today, 250 years since the Declaration of Independence, aspects of the founding story remain a source of inspiration.

I cherish our origins as an experimental people. It would be great for us at this 250th anniversary moment to recover that sense of experimentation. I love the phrase in the Constitution, a more perfect union, which to me describes the United States as a journey rather than as a destination. What I love about being an American is that willingness to grope towards that impossible goal. I don't think the American Revolution has waned as a critical starting point for American identity. I've taught many students who were themselves immigrants or the children of immigrants, and when we start talking about the American Revolution, they will refer to the revolutionaries

as we, that they feel a continuity with that, even though they have come to the United States relatively recently from a very different country. So the legacy of the revolution is, at the core of American identity. Yet that legacy remains troubled and complex. Julius Jefferson is a descendant of numerous people enslaved by Thomas Jefferson. For him, the founding era is a tale dominated by division and injustice. Whenever you think about an anniversary or birth, you know, celebrating a birth, another milestone, you have to be honest about what has happened in the past.

And so if we reflect upon the life of this country, I mean, we still have to think that this idea or experiment has failed us. We need to talk about how we move forward. Clearly, we don't want to talk about where this country has been because we haven't done that ever. And so let's talk about where we're going to go. Perhaps by accepting the darkness of the past, the founding era can still light a path to the future. The last piece of the revolution that remains incredibly relevant today is that we are not a nation that has a shared ethnic, religious, or racial background. Who counts, who doesn't, who is involved, who is included, who gets listened to is going to be contested and has been contested from the very beginning. The concept that a government is by the people for the people, and the people get to decide who serves them, was a radical and revolutionary idea.

in 1776. And I think it remains a radical and revolutionary idea. It has inspired countries across the globe over the centuries to throw off the shackles of absolute tyranny. It is an incredible legacy that we inherited, one that took sacrifice and the highest measure of duty and obligation to the nation. People lay down their lives on behalf of this concept.

It is not an inheritance I take lightly. It is not one that I, take for granted. And I believe it is up to every generation to devote ourselves to ensuring that it survives to the next. Thank you for listening to Founding Fathers. We hope you enjoyed the show. Now you've finished. Discover your next immersive history podcast at noisor.com, the home of the Norseur podcast network.