Today, Explained - Accusers, plural

Episode Date: September 24, 2018

U.S. Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh is facing more accusations of sexual misconduct. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for today's Explained this week comes from Quip Electric Toothbrushes. They start at just $25, and if you go to getquip.com slash explained right now, you'll get your first refill pack free with your Quip Electric Toothbrush. That's G-E-T-Q-U-I-P dot com slash explained. Lizo, you report on Congress here at Vox. A second Kavanaugh accuser has now come forward. Who is she? Where did she share her story?

What's going on? Deborah Ramirez, a former classmate of Kavanaugh's at Yale, has come forward with another allegation of sexual misconduct. She shared her story in a New Yorker piece that came out on Sunday. And in the piece, I'm just going to read directly from it, she says, Kavanaugh exposed himself at a drunken dormitory party, thrust his penis in her face,

and caused her to touch it without her consent as she pushed him away. And this was at a party at Yale when they were both in college? How old were they at the time? Kavanaugh was a legal adult at that point, so he was already 18. And that fact is significant because during his confirmation hearing, he was actually asked directly. Since you became a legal adult, have you ever made unwanted requests for sexual favors or committed any verbal or physical harassment or assault of a sexual nature? No. This was at a party where surely there were other people.

Did the New Yorker's story corroborate her account with other witnesses? They spoke with a number of other people who were at the party. Several of them said they had no recollection of what had happened and pushed back against Ramirez's story. But there were other classmates she had who offered details that seemed to corroborate elements of it. And were those classmates quoted in the story? They were, but the classmates who are quoted in the story offer secondhand accounts. So they

were not people who appear to have been at the event themselves. Deborah Ramirez is admitting that she was drinking a lot during the time, that everyone else around her was drinking a lot during the time. How much harder is that going to make the story to, I don't know, investigate, to corroborate? It makes it a lot harder. And that's something that we've already seen the New York Times point out. So reporters at the Times were also chasing the story. And they note that they spoke with people that Ramirez had talked to who say that she actually mentioned she wasn't sure if it was Kavanaugh who exposed himself to her. The New Yorker also touches on this. They say that she

was drinking. There were holes in her memory. She's very upfront about that. And she spent some time reflecting and determining whether or not she was certain enough. Only after that time did she decide to come forward and actually tell the New Yorker her story. So she is, as of now, saying that she remembers clearly enough that this was Kavanaugh. Yes. If there were so many people who have secondhand knowledge of this story, do we have any idea if they were talking about this before Ramirez's story came out in The New Yorker? There were a lot of people talking about it, according to Jane Mayer, who is one of the writers of the story.

She, this morning, said that there are email threads between classmates at Yale. And when Kavanaugh was named to the court, they began to email back and forth with each other, people who had heard a little bit about this, and they were comparing notes. This was in July, before any other sexual misconduct charges came up against Kavanaugh. And we've looked at the emails to see them. That was on NPR this morning. What has Kavanaugh said about the allegations? Has he said anything yet? He's denied them completely. He's actually called them a smear campaign, plain and simple. And the president? He said this morning while he was at a U.N. event that he believes him.

Judge Kavanaugh is an outstanding person, and I am with him all the way. We'll see how it goes with the Senate. We'll see how it goes with the vote. With the Christine Blasey Ford allegations, we found out later that Dianne Feinstein hadn't known about them since July, I think, but they only came out recently. Have these allegations been swirling around behind the scenes at the Senate Judiciary Committee? Do we have any idea? There are conflicting accounts about that. Senate Democrats definitely knew about them, and that's included in the New Yorker story. The New Yorker also reports that senior Republicans knew about these allegations last week and in knowing about them actually wanted to expedite Kavanaugh's confirmation

because they presumably thought this would be a problem. Republicans have since come out and said, no, the first we've ever heard about this is from the New Yorker story. And do we have any idea with people having known about this for some time why the story's coming out now? I think the impetus for the story moving forward is that Ramirez wanted to come forward and talk about it. And I think she wanted to come forward because she had seen Ford come forward. And in the same way that we've seen with Me Too, that women have seen other women speak out and felt motivated to do so. I think you're seeing that same pattern here. And the Democrats called for an FBI investigation with the first round of

allegations. Are they calling for another one now? They are. They're saying that the FBI should conduct another impartial review into what's going on here. Thus far, there's no indication that they've done any type of investigation into what Ford has alleged. And so maybe unlikely they'll get one this time. Right. It feels like the Senate Judiciary Committee knew about Christine Blasey Ford's allegations before anyone else. They knew about Deborah Ramirez's allegations before anyone else. Do we know if they know about a third, a fourth, a fifth allegation that we haven't heard about yet? Michael Avenatti on Sunday evening actually came forward and said

he is representing a woman who has credible information about more allegations against both Brett Kavanaugh as well as Mark Judge. Avenatti is Stormy Daniels' lawyer. Right. And Mark Judge is the guy who was, according to Christine Blasey Ford, in the room at this house party in Maryland. Yes, egging Kavanaugh on while he was trying to force himself on her. So what are the allegations that Avenatti's got? early 1980s, during which Brett Kavanaugh, Mark Judge, and others would participate in the targeting of women with alcohol and drugs in order to allow a train of men to subsequently gang rape them. Jesus. Is there anything else out there that corroborates that kind of allegation?

Because that's some incendiary stuff. Well, actually, in the New Yorker story that published last night with Ramirez's allegations, Elizabeth Razor, who is a woman that dated Mark Judge for multiple years, says that Judge told her, ashamedly, of an incident involving him and other boys taking turns having sex with a drunk woman, and that she says he thought it was a fully consensual thing that they were engaging in. Is anything going to happen to this Mark Judge character? Democrats have repeatedly pressed for Mark Judge to get subpoenaed to the hearing that is supposed to happen this Thursday.

And Republicans at this point have really resisted those calls. Why? Is he going to tank the nomination for him? He's a pretty controversial character. So since high school, he's become a relatively prominent conservative filmmaker and writer. And he's actually written on the subject of sexual assault. And he said that there's no excuse for rape. But at the same time, women need to be aware of what they're wearing, how they're conducting

himself. Yeah. What does all of this mean for Kavanaugh's confirmation, which is supposed to be over and done with by now? Yeah. Yeah. I think people thought this was pretty much going to be smooth sailing. Republicans have the votes they need in the Senate to get him through.

But all of these allegations have really put a dark stain on whether or not he will actually make it to the Supreme Court. The important people to watch now are some of those moderate Republicans who are considered swing votes. So that would be Senators Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, Jeff Flake, and Bob Corker. And what's really going to matter is if they speak out about it. Because Republican leadership, the White House, all of those people thus far have been very fully behind Kavanaugh. Up next, Christine Blasey Ford is returning to D.C. this week, and everyone's going to be watching.

I'm Sean Ramos-Firm. This is Today Explained. Here are some things you might not know about the Quip electric toothbrush because I haven't sent them on our show in a very long time. The Quip electric toothbrush costs a fraction of bulkier toothbrushes and packs evidently the right amount of vibrations to clean your teeth. It's got a built-in timer on it and guiding pulses that help you clean for the full dentist-recommended two minutes. FYI, dentists recommend that you brush for two minutes. Quip is a subscription-based situation, and it's built for your health, so you get new brush heads every three months for just $5,

including free shipping worldwide. And if you go to getquip.com slash explained, you'll get your first pack of refills free. And it turns out everyone loves Quip. They were on Oprah's O list. They were named one of time's best inventions one time. And it's the first subscription electric toothbrush accepted by the American Dental Association. So getquip.com slash explained is a place you can find out more about Quip electric toothbrushes. Here's another helpful nugget. Vox just launched The Goods.

It's a website to understand our culture by taking a look at how we spend our money. Quick scroll of some headlines up there right now. What the rise of men's makeup means for masculinity. Why movie theaters are trading popcorn and soda for chimichangas and custom cocktails, and pockets that are really important to women and high fashion designers are finally recognizing that. Check out the goods at vox.com slash the goods. You will not be disappointed. Lee, Christine Blasey Ford is supposed to testify this week. Is that still going to happen?

They finally reached an agreement about her coming to testify on Thursday, and it looks like that's still on track. Michael Avenatti has also requested that the client he's representing be able to come and testify in front of the committee as well. And is Deborah Ramirez coming too? That's unclear at this point. I think a lot of people are watching this closely to figure out how it's going to affect Kavanaugh's nomination if the hearing even ends up happening. So what took so long for Christine Blasey Ford to agree to come testify? Was it that she was asking for the FBI investigation? There was demands for the FBI

investigation. There was a demand for a subpoena of Mark Judge. And there were demands also that she had made about how she wanted the hearing handled. So she had asked that she and Kavanaugh not be in the same room. She wanted to limit the number of cameras that were in there, and she wanted to make sure that it didn't take place until Thursday of this week or later. Why is that? She has previously said that she doesn't feel comfortable in confined spaces, and friends of hers have actually alluded to this. One friend said that she was resistant to getting a master bedroom that didn't have a second door because she's just so panicked about being trapped in an area. I think that relates to her wanting to travel on airplanes. So she is presumably making the drive from California to D.C., which is why

they needed this extra time. So who's going to be questioning her? Will it be the senators on the Senate Judiciary Committee? Will it be lawyers? Will Kavanaugh be in the room? What's this going to look like? That's one of the things that's still up for negotiation. I think there have been some rumblings floating around that the Senate Republicans, because it's an all-white, very old male group of lawmakers, want their staff to question Christine Blase Ford because the optics of that would be better if you have at least some women counsel involved in this process. There have also been questions about whether the counsel representing Ford and representing Kavanaugh would actually do some kind of cross-examination of the two of them in addition to Senate questioning.

So what's happened to Ford since the Washington Post published her story a week and a day ago? Unfortunately, a lot of what she was afraid of coming forward has materialized in terms of retaliation from Republicans, from the press, from people smearing her. She really doesn't want to testify because when she does, she's going to look like the loon that she is. She may very well believe everything she's saying. And that is one of the signs of lunacy. And even more so than that is that she and her family have received death threats and they've had to leave their house. They've had to try to figure out if they can get security for their children. And that was also a big concern for her coming to testify if they would be protected.

I mean, it's not just Republicans and people online. It's the president himself called into question her allegations, right? He said that she should have reported it immediately. And he said that because she didn't do that, that suggests that they're in doubt. And that's actually something she talked about when she was speaking to The Post, that she was so terrified when it happened that reporting it was not the first thing that came to mind. And a lot of women since then have come forward and explained why they didn't report when they experienced sexual assault. And it spurred a campaign online with the hashtag, Why I Didn't Report. Because I didn't want to admit what happened, even to myself, why I didn't report. My mom said she would kill anyone who hurt me, and at nine years old, I believed her.

I was afraid she would go to jail. Two of his fraternity brothers showed up at my dorm room the next day and threatened to kill me if I told. So from everything from internet mob death threats to the president of the United States of America tweeting that if this were more serious, she certainly would have told the cops about it back when it happened. Why is Christine Blasey Ford still driving to Washington, D.C. to testify? The core motivation that she's ultimately be making decisions that would affect so many women once they ascend to the Supreme Court is a huge motivating factor. And I think she has said she really wants to fulfill her civic duty by telling her story. Members of the Senate Judiciary Committee have been forced to talk about these allegations.

Have we any idea what they might say on Thursday based on what they've been saying in the press? Some of the immediate responses from top Republicans on the Judiciary Committee have been to question Ford's credibility. The first day after she spoke to The Post, Senator Orrin Hatch actually said, I think I think this woman, whoever she is, is mixed up. Orrin Hatch, throwback to Anita Hill's testimony. Right. Welcome back, Professor Hill. Good afternoon, Senator.

Questioning women's allegations. Yeah, exactly. And had an appropriate, fair procedure been followed, you would not have been dragged through the media and through all of these other things that both of you have been dragged through. And I have to say that I hope I never see that happen again to anybody in any confirmation proceeding on the Hill, let alone a confirmation for a justice of the Supreme Court of the United States of America. Yeah. And Lindsey Graham has said that he thinks she's just a pawn, that she's being used by Democrats.

What am I supposed to do? Go ahead and ruin this guy's life based on an accusation. I don't know when it happened. I don't know where it happened. And everybody named in regard to being there said it didn't happen. I'm just being honest. Unless there's something more. No, I'm not going to ruin Judge Kavanaugh's life over this. Meanwhile, you continue to hear from Democrats like Mazie Hirono who have pushed for an investigation and argued that at this point, literally all the facts that are available are these accounts that have been gathered by journalists, that people have put out in haphazard character testimony letters. So it's necessary for somebody who knows how to investigate things to look at everything and come to a determination about what kind of evidence is out there.

You know, we already have one person in the Supreme Court who got there under this cloud. We should not have another. It seems sort of obvious that even if you love Kavanaugh as a nominee, there's someone out there who's a safer bet than this guy who's got all these allegations coming forward. What's the calculus there? Democrats have just honestly handled this poorly, that it's them coming at this from a political angle and that Republicans need to resist these types of attacks. I think on top of that, this would be a huge loss for them, especially ahead of the November

midterms. And I think they don't want to look weak. And you're all following the current Supreme Court fight. And you will watch it unfold in the course of the next week. President Trump has nominated a stunningly successful individual. You've watched the fight. You've watched the tactics. But here's what I want to tell you. In the very near future, Judge Kavanaugh will be on the United States Supreme Court.

So my friends, keep the faith. Don't get rattled by all of this. We're going to plow right through it and do our job. Să vă mulțumim pentru vizionare! Thanks again to Quip for supporting the show today. Quip Electric Toothbrushes wants you to know that you're doing it wrong and their electric toothbrushes can help you do it right. You can find out more at getquip.com slash explained. That's G-E-T-Q-U-I-P dot com slash explained. And you'll get your first refill pack free

when you buy a Quip Electric Toothbrush at that website.