Today, Explained - Brazil’s January 6?

Episode Date: January 10, 2023

Except it was on January 8. The Brazilian Report’s Gustavo Ribeiro explains from São Paulo. This episode was produced by Miles Bryan, edited by Matt Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Paul Robert Mounsey, and hosted by Sean Rameswaram. Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained   Support Today, Explained by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Brazil just had its very own January 6th. Except it happened on January 8th, and instead of interrupting their country's democratic process in support of a right-wing ex-president, the rioters and insurrectionists stormed an empty capital city and vandalized a bunch of empty capital buildings. Still, worth asking why? Worth asking how Brazil handled it?

Did they just let everyone walk back to their hotels and cars like we did in our country? Or did they, you know, arrest them? Are they going to spend the next several years trying to determine who's at fault? Are they going to wrap this up quickly? Are they going to agree on what exactly happened during their insurrection? Or will they be divided? Did the Brazilian insurrectionists also poop everywhere? And what role did ex-president Jair Bolsonaro play?

Isn't he in Florida? Answers to those questions and more coming up on Today Explained. BetMGM, authorized gaming partner of the NBA, has your back all season long. From tip-off to the final buzzer, you're always taken care of with a sportsbook born in Vegas. That's a feeling you can only get with BetMGM. And no matter your team, your favorite player, or your style, there's something every NBA fan will love about BetMGM. Download the app today and discover why BetMGM is your basketball home for the season. Raise your game to the next level

this year with BetMGM, a sportsbook worth a slam dunk, an authorized gaming partner of the NBA. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns

about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Today explained Sean Ramos from when we saw Brazil taken after us in all the worst ways. We reached out to the Brazilian reports Gustavo Ribeiro, based in Sao Paulo, to find out what the heck was going on down there. Well, over the weekend, we saw dozens of buses carrying supporters of former President Jair Bolsonaro heading to Brasilia. They gathered and marched for six and a half kilometers, four miles until the Three Powers Square, which is where all three branches of government

are headquartered in Brasilia, the federal capital. They met very little resistance from police forces and quickly what was an anti-democratic protest evolved into full-scale riots. They stormed the Congress building, the Supreme Court and the presidential palace. They destroyed millions of dollars in public property. And things were not worse because the Brazilian Congress and Supreme Court are not in session during the month of January and President Lula was not in Brasília. But we have seen arguably the worst assault against democratic institutions in Brazil since the country became a democracy again in the mid-80s.

For people who haven't been paying attention to Brazilian politics until this moment, until people saw that Brazil did it January 6th, tell us what got us to this moment. You guys just had a big election. What were the stakes of that election? Well, Sunday's events, while worrisome, disappointing, they are not surprising. We have had a far-right president between 2019 and the end of last year, he pitted his supporters against democratic institutions for years. And then after he lost re-election on October the 30th, Bolsonaro supporters started staging act of violence after act of violence. Each one seemed to announce a worst thing that would come. So right after Bolsonaro lost the election, and by the way, he still has not conceded the results,

we saw his supporters blocking federal roadways that are key to Brazilian supply chains. Bolsonaro was removed from his throne and we're going to put him back in power with the strength we, the lorry drivers, have. Then they started camping outside of army garrisons across Brazil, asking for the armed forces to stage a coup d'etat. Supporters of Brazil's president, Jair Bolsonaro, marching towards military headquarters in Rio de Janeiro. They don't accept Bolsonaro's defeat and want the armed forces to intervene. When Lula's victory was to be certified by electoral courts on December 12th, they staged numerous acts of violence in Brasilia

and even tried to storm the headquarters of the federal police in the capital. And on Christmas Eve, the police uncovered a bomb plot near the Brasilia airport. Police said they'd foiled a bomb plot, arresting a pro-Bolsonaro election denier who said he was inspired to build up an arsenal by the outgoing president's call to arms. In all of this, the perpetrators said that they wanted to create chaos

in order to prevent Lula from taking office by creating the conditions for a stage of siege that would lift constitutional rights temporarily and allow Bolsonaro to remain in power. Bolsonaro's supporters are wreaking havoc in Brazil in the wake of the election. What is Bolsonaro himself doing? I would say Bolsonaro is giving himself the argument of plausible deniability. Bolsonaro has practically disappeared from social media after he lost the election. He barely spoke publicly, but he has also done nothing to calm spirits of his supporters or condemned

acts of violence. In a farewell address that he broadcast on social media on December the 30th. If I arrive, I have a purpose. He said that violent acts are regrettable, but he said that always in that sort of underdog image he wants to give himself, that he's persecuted by the so-called deep state. If you're upset, you're upset, get in my place.

During the campaign, Bolsonaro said that the only way he would not win with at least 60% of the vote was if there was foul play. Which sets the stage for the events of this past weekend. Tell us how exactly we got to your January 6th, which transpired on January 8th. So this far-right movement is deeply rooted on social media. We have many wealthy businessmen supporting it with money. And we saw an effort to bring thousands of people to Brasilia, the federal capital in the middle of Brazil, in order to stage a massive rally. And it doesn't

take a rocket science to foresee what was about to happen because they were openly saying, we will grab power. This is the Brazilian spring. Bolsonaro will win unless it's stolen by, guess what? The machines. The machines. And it's a term that was coined by Steve Bannon, who is close to the Bolsonaro clan. The machines. So these people gathered outside of the army headquarters in Brasília.

Then they walked four miles until the congressional building, where there was very little resistance. And it's important for people to know, people who don't know Brasilia. Brasilia is a capital that, by design, is made to avoid these kind of scenes from happening. Brasilia was deliberately placed far inland to open up the nation's vast interior. And ribbons of asphalt are planned to all parts of the country. Also, the Three Powers Square, where we have Congress, the Presidential Palace, and the Supreme Court, it's a vast open space. The Planalto Palace, Palace of the Highlands, and the Plaza of the Three Powers, Executive,

Judicial, and Legislative, form a triangle of architectural genius. It's a place where if the police wants, it can barricade the access points to government buildings. So what you're saying is that the police and the military could see this riot coming from literally hundreds, if not thousands of miles away. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And also members of the government and allies of the current Central Left government have directly accused the local authorities of condoning by omission what happened because you have throngs of people marching to the Congress building, and there were just a couple of dozen policemen barricading their access there.

Some tried to use pepper spray, but others were just taking selfies and filming the action while people were trashing the Congressional building. So I think it's safe to say at this point that there was malicious negligence as well. Another interesting detail is that until Sunday, the top security official in Brasilia was the man who served as justice minister under Jair Bolsonaro. So what happens when they finally get to Brasilia? What happens once they arrive to the capital? Well, they were gathering outside of the army headquarters where thousands of Bolsonaro protesters have camped for two months asking for a military coup. And by two o'clock on Sunday, they started marching towards Congress building. Now, this is a one-hour, one-hour-and-a-half walk,

so it's not as if it was impossible to see this coming. It was not as if it was impossible for the police to mobilize its troops and barricade. They met very little resistance once they reached the police barricades. A few policemen tried to use pepper spray, but they were just overwhelmed by the crowds. They stormed the ramp that leads to the congressional lobby, while other groups went to the Supreme Court building, which is just meters away from there.

And a third group stormed at the presidential palace. Now, these are palaces that are covered in glass, so they shattered the glass, they invaded the lobby, the legislative chambers, they trashed the place. There were reports of blood, urine and feces in many areas of these official buildings and they stole documents. One thing that was interesting is that government members said

that these rioters knew what they were doing and what they were looking for because they stormed one room in the presidential palace where the police stores guns and ammunition, including lethal weapons, and they stole these lethal weapons. We saw some trying to set fire to these buildings. The incredible scenes unfolding in Brazil's capital Sunday. Thousands of protesters confronting police wielding makeshift weapons. All of it eerily similar to one of the ugliest chapters

in American history to January 6th attacks. The police only responded after the congressional building was trashed, the Supreme Court was destroyed in many places, and presidential palace had people defecating all over the place. They used stun guns, and then in a matter of a few hours, things stopped escalating. And then we saw a lot of reactions from the three branches of government. President Lula placed the security apparatus in the capital Brasilia under federal intervention, meaning that the local police forces were no longer under the jurisdiction of the governor, but responding to the federal government directly.

Also, the Supreme Court suspended the governor of Brasilia from office for 90 days because Supreme Court still has to rule on. But we have seen this coordinated effort of federal institutions trying to respond to this assault on democracy. It looks at times exactly the same, but in a different country with different flags waving. The one key difference here, and I think you alluded to this, is that in the United States on January 6th, 2021, you had these insurrectionists trying to disrupt the democratic process, on January 8th, 2023, you have these insurrectionists, I think, breaking into a bunch of empty buildings. Is that right? Yes, because Congress in Brazil, as the Supreme Court are not in session during the month of January, they will only be back to work in February. And also President Lula was not in Brasilia on Sunday. He was visiting a city in the countryside of Sao Paulo, so thousands of miles away. It's interesting because for two months, these people said that they would prevent Lula from taking office. And then they staged this massive assault against democratic symbols a week after he is in office, a week after what they feared the most was fait accompli.

And it seems like a gratuitous act of vandalism, but it's also a way of them showing that they will try to destabilize this administration at every moment they can. They will try to keep this government at bay. If you look at far-right groups on Telegram, on WhatsApp, they are already talking about trying to boycott the financial system, trying to find ways to wreck the economy and make this government a total disaster. More with Gustavo momentarily on Today Explained. Support for Today Explained comes from Ramp. from ramp ramp is the corporate card and spend management software designed to help you save time and put money back in your pocket ramp says they give finance teams unprecedented control and

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FDIC, terms and conditions apply. After 47 years living here, I decided to move to Orlando to be closer to Disney World. Today Explained, we're back. Gustavo, we're talking about these insurrectionists who are really mad that Jair Bolsonaro isn't leading Brazil in this moment.

Where is Jair Bolsonaro in this moment? I hear Florida. Yes. Jair Bolsonaro, who is currently in the United States, was just admitted to a hospital in Orlando for abdominal pain. Bolsonaro was stabbed in 2018 and frequently suffers pain in that area as a result. Bolsonaro left office on December the 30th, two days before he was supposed to hand the presidential sash to Lula, so he would avoid the inauguration. There is legislation that was passed authorizing a security detail for him until January 31st. So, I mean, the plan, at least at this moment, is for him to stay at least until the end of the month

in the Orlando area, where he has been meeting with supporters outside of a supporter's home, former UFC fighter who is hosting him there. Why is he in Florida? Is it just like, is the love for Trump that deep? I mean, part yes, but also Florida is where a lot of the Brazilian elite likes to move or to have homes or to go for tourism. So it is this sort of kitsch dream of Brazilian rich folks. So there are a lot of supporters of Bolsonaro there. When we look at the electoral data from consulates, we see that Florida massively voted for Bolsonaro. If Brazil had

an electoral college, that swing state would be with the far-right former president. What does he have to say about all of this insurrection business in his home country? So it was very weird how Bolsonaro acted following the events, because while things were happening in Brasilia and we were seeing this crazy, unprecedented event, he was mom. I mean, for a guy as social media savvy as he, it was weird. And then early in the evening, he just posted anodyne things about accomplishments his administration had done. Now, I don't know if it were scheduled posts, but it was in total oblivion with what was happening.

And then, 9 p.m. already or something like that, he did this very short tweet saying that peaceful protests are encouraged, but when they go beyond what the law allows, then they become regrettable. But also comparing what happened on Sunday with protests that have taken place in Brasilia in 2013 and 2017. Ultimately, in the United States, January 6th was investigated.

There was a committee. There was televised hearings. They arrested a ton of people who were at the insurrection. And ultimately, it feels kind of like a huge failure. Do you think this was this movement in Brazil's last gasp? I would be shocked if this is the last we see of the far right, because I think their goal is to destabilize the country as much as they can and to make Lula's presidency impossible to be successful. It will depend on how harshly and how swiftly the courts go after these people. We have seen that between Sunday and Monday, over 1,200 people have already been arrested for being there, and that both the

Justice Ministry and the Supreme Court have promised to go not only after the people who were breaking stuff in Brasília, but also the people who financed them for years and the people who incited them. So that means going after billionaires who have poured money for months and years into financing this far-right movement. And also the president and his family who, I mean, the buck stops with them because they are the ones who are pushing people to that point of no return. Mr. De Silva has today accused him of encouraging these people who have stormed these buildings.

He's also warned that anyone who was involved will be held to account. Like true vandals destroying what they found in front of them, we think there was a lack of security. And I wanted to tell you that all those people who did this will be found and punished. In the United States, you know, depending on who you ask, January 6th was one of the darkest days in our history, or it was a wild party down in D.C. Do you think Brazilians are going to suffer from the same circumstances where people will struggle to agree on what exactly happened on January 8th, 2023? So there was one opinion poster who published a monitoring of social media posts on Sunday's riots.

And over 90% of Brazilians were condemning what happened and disapproving of these violent acts. And then we saw even members of the right condemning what happened and distancing themselves. Now, like I said, Bolsonaro has also distanced himself, and that doesn't mean anything, because they continue in the backstage inciting people to charge against democracy. Given this backlash, it's interesting to notice that a lot of far-right agitators on social media are saying that there were infiltrated left-wing people, and those were the ones who were responsible for trashing the Congress and the Supreme Court, not the far-right people who were there. So they're trying to pin the blame on the left on their own deeds.

Sounds familiar. I think that Brazilian institutions have been capable of withstanding constant attacks. Some acted more responsibly than others. But I think that now that members of Congress who have been very lenient and borderline accomplice to Bolsonaro, now that they have felt that they are in the firing line as well, maybe that could force them into making a stand for democracy. It's not that democracy is not at risk in Brazil, but I don't think that they will be able to achieve what they hope to achieve. So I think that even though

we will limp out of this crisis, I think the Brazilian democratic experiment is far from done. In that sense, I'm hopeful, even though I believe that we're going to see a very convoluted, very tense political atmosphere in Brazil. So I think crisis mode will be on, but I don't think that democracy mode will be off. Gustavo Ribeiro. He's the founder of the Brazilian Report. Find them at brazilian.report. The program today was produced by Miles Bryan.

We were edited by Matthew Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, and mixed by Paul Robert Mounsey. The rest of the team includes Siona Petros, Amanda Llewellyn, Halima Shah, Avishai Artsy, Hadi Mawagdi, Victoria Chamberlain, and my co-host Noelle King. Our supervising producer is Amina Alsadi.

Afim Shapiro is our director of sound, and we got extra help this week from Jolie Myers. We used music by Breakmaster Cylinder and Noam Hassenfeld. Today Explained is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and we're on the radio in partnership with WNYC. Thank you.