Today, Explained - DEB4TE

Episode Date: October 16, 2019

In the fourth Democratic debate, the candidates treated Elizabeth Warren as the frontrunner. Vox’s Ezra Klein explains what that means for the race ahead. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Good morning. MailChimp's all-in-one marketing platform allows you to manage more of your marketing activities from one place so you can market smarter and grow faster. It's powered by a marketing CRM so you can collect, organize, understand, and act on all of your audience data. Learn more at MailChimp.com. Lizzo, you cover politics here at Vox. Last night, the Democrats met for their fourth debate in Ohio this time, the first since the Democrats in the House launched their impeachment inquiry. And thankfully, this debate didn't start with the conversation on health care. It started with a conversation on impeachment, right? Yeah, for once, it was not a 30-minute debate about Medicare for all. It kind of highlighted how universally the Democrats are currently backing the House impeachment inquiry.

They were pretty united in their front in taking on Donald Trump. Impeachment is the way that we establish that this man will not be permitted to break the law over and over without consequences. The idea that we have a president of the United States who is prepared to hold back national security money to one of our allies in order to get dirt on a presidential candidate is beyond comprehensive. This president is the most corrupt president in modern history and I think all of our history. It's also about the presidency itself because a president 10 years or a hundred years from now will look back at this moment and draw the conclusion either that no one is above the law or that a president can get away with anything.

We have a constitutional duty to pursue this impeachment. I don't really think this impeachment process is going to take very long because as a former prosecutor, I know a confession when I see it. We have to impeach this president. And the majority of Americans not only support impeachment, they support removal. He should be removed. Making this conversation about impeachment a little more interesting is, of course, the fact that Joe Biden was on stage and President Trump spent so long trying to get Ukraine to dig up dirt on Joe Biden. What did Biden himself have to say about it? Biden had a pretty straightforward response.

My son did nothing wrong. I did nothing wrong. I carried out the policy of the United States government in rooting out corruption in Ukraine. He quickly turned that on to Trump again and called out him as the most corrupt president, and that's what we should be focusing on. After they got impeachment out of the way, they, of course, went to health care, which I guess at this point is like contractually obligated or something. Will you raise taxes on the middle class to pay for it? Yes or no? But after that, they went to Syria, which was, I felt like, the first time we had a really

robust conversation about foreign policy on one of these debate stages. Right. A lot of the Democrats were responding to Trump's decision to withdraw troops from Syria. And many of them, including Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, basically called out Trump for hanging out Kurdish allies to dry. What has happened in Syria is yet again Donald Trump selling folks out. And in this case, he sold out the Kurds who, yes, fought with us and thousands died in our fight against ISIS. But the biggest kind of sparring on that topic was really between Gabbard and Pete Buttigieg, both of whom have served in the military. I didn't think we should have gone to Iraq in the first place. I think we need to get out of Afghanistan. But it's also the case that a small number of specialized special operations forces and intelligence capabilities were the only thing that stood between that part of Syria and what we're seeing now, which is the beginning of a genocide and the resurgence of ISIS. And Gabbard was calling out past actions that the U.S. has

done in the region as kind of causing what's happening to the Kurds right now. So really what you're saying, Mayor Pete, is that you would continue to support having U.S. troops in Syria for an indefinite period of time to continue this regime change war that has caused so many refugees to flee Syria. We saw Buttigieg push back very harshly. What we were doing in Syria was keeping our word. Is it wrong that while these two are sort of going at each other, I was just marveling at the fact that, wow, we have like a gay veteran and a female veteran both running for president, both arguing about the merits of a foreign intervention. I mean, I think that felt incredibly significant

just to be able to see that exchange play out on stage. There was also someone on stage who recently had a heart attack. How did that go over? Bernie came out and confronted it himself before the moderator was even able to ask the question. Now to the issue of candidates and their health. Senator Sanders, I want to start with you. I want to start. We're moving on, Senator. I'm sorry. I'm feeling great, but I would like to. And I think she went on to confront him as well as Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren pretty directly on this question of age. It's something that's felt like it's been unspoken in the race up till now, and that people have been kind of tentative about really confronting it. But I think it was good to have kind of a more frank discussion about it,

given how much voters have indicated that they are concerned and interested in hearing more on the subject. And obviously this conversation centered on Sanders, Biden, and Warren. How did they handle it? I think Sanders looked really strong and I think he responded to the question by saying, listen, I'm going to be throwing this massive, you know, campaign rally in Queens to further indicate how strong I am and how ready I am to take on this job. Elizabeth Warren similarly made the case that she would outwork, outorganize and outlast anyone. And that includes Donald Trump, Mike Pence or whoever the Republicans get stuck

with. And I think given how much energy she's had in past rallies, that argument is something that she was able to pretty quickly latch on to. And then for Biden, I think something he's been trying to do on the campaign trail is reframing his age as wisdom. And so he did that again yesterday, where he talked about how he had the most experience of anyone on stage and that that's a good thing and not something to be held against him. And a little awkwardly, they pretty much transitioned from seniority on the stage to a conversation about tech. How did that go? Right, right. That does kind of feel like a sharp shift.

I think what we saw was that Elizabeth Warren really stood out as the leader on this topic, largely because she's put out a comprehensive plan about breaking up big tech and has made this a major talking point for her campaign. And as we've covered on the show, has like a minor beef with Mark Zuckerberg. Right, right. None of the other candidates on stage were quite as gung-ho as she is on the subject. I'm not willing to give up and let a handful of monopolists dominate our economy and our democracy. It's time to fight back. I think a lot of people said what she was

talking about, the fact that there are monopolies that are controlling too many platforms and that that's bad for society is something we can all agree on. But nobody really endorsed her plan for breaking up big tech as wholeheartedly. As usual, Senator Warren is 100 percent right in diagnosing the problem. There are absolutely excesses in technology. And in some cases, having them divest parts of their business is the right move. But we also have to be realistic that competition doesn't solve all the problems. If you look at maybe five years ago, even the Democratic Party was very closely aligned with Silicon Valley, like the progressive kind of values that they shared were things that were commonalities between the two. And increasingly, you're seeing Democrats go on the offensive against the industry. I think the other thing

that indicated was just how much Elizabeth Warren has really become this kind of guiding light frontrunner in the party and that multiple people throughout the night were trying to get her approval and get their support for issues that they wanted to champion. Right. Andrew Yang wasn't going after Cory Booker or Senator Klobuchar on their policies about tech. Much more of the attention was focused on Elizabeth Warren last night than we've ever seen before. Right. And I think that's very telling about where she stands right now. It was pretty clear that Elizabeth Warren was getting the attention that in previous debates had been reserved for for Vice President Biden.

I mean, this time you had people even defending Biden. We are literally using Donald Trump's lies. And the second issue we cover on this stage is elevating a lie and attacking a statesman. That was so offensive. Meanwhile, you had people all up and down the stage going after Warren. I think we need to be focused on lifting people up. And sometimes I think that Senator Warren is more focused on being punitive or pitting some part of the country against the other.

Your signature, Senator, is to have a plan for everything. Except this. No plan has been laid out to explain how a multi-trillion dollar hole in this Medicare for All plan that Senator Warren is putting forward is supposed to get filled in. And part of that requires you not being vague. I appreciate Elizabeth's work. But again, the difference between a plan and a pipe dream is something that you can actually get done. At one point, Joe Biden makes the case that he's the only one on stage of all 12 candidates who's accomplished anything. I'm going to say something that is probably going to offend some people here, but I'm the only one on the stage that's gotten anything really big done.

And Elizabeth Warren was absolutely not having it. So she talked a bit about establishing the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. So you started this question with how you got something done. You know, following the financial crash of 2008, I had an idea for a consumer agency that would keep giant banks from cheating people. And all of the Washington insiders and strategic geniuses said, don't even try. But we got that agency passed into law. It has now forced big banks to return more than $12 billion directly to people they cheated. What we saw from there was that Biden argued that he was at the time helping.

I got votes for that bill. I convinced people to vote for it. So let's get those things straight, too. And she pretty quickly turned on him and said, I am deeply grateful to President Obama, who fought so hard to make sure that agency was passed into law. She went on to say she really appreciated everyone involved, but she never really called him out by name.

Thanks, Obama. Yeah. Biden started laughing, which I actually don't blame him for, because it was like... It's nice to see that Biden smile, because you could see it from New York, even though he was smiling at Ohio. It's very bright. Is this what the race is going to look like now for the next few months, at least? Is it everyone seeing Elizabeth Warren as a frontrunner and thus going after her policies

and trying to get her to commit to various policies as well. I mean, I do think it's still really early to figure out how long this dynamic is going to last. But when you look at the polls, I mean, Biden and Warren are pretty much the top two. And they pulled a bit away from Sanders at this point and generally just been trading off the lead between each other. So I think if Warren continues to see the momentum she's seeing now, that's definitely going to be the case. What does this race mean now that the candidates see Elizabeth Warren as the frontrunner? I'll ask Ezra Klein in a minute on Today Explained.

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Let MailChimp make you smarter. Ezra Klein, Fox. Elizabeth Warren is looking more and more like the frontrunner. How exactly did she get here? So she got here a couple ways. One is just by being an extremely impressive candidate. And I think it's easy to forget that her rollout was a bit of a disaster. Right after she announced her campaign, or right around that time, she came out with this video about the DNA testing, got a ton of backlash from

Native American tribes, and people said she was responding to Trump poorly, and she was kind of stuck in the polls for a while. And for people who don't remember, this is because Trump was claiming that, you know, she wrongly claimed to have Native American ancestry, and she was kind of trying to defend it, but tactfully. Yes. And so what she then did, which was really, really, I think, an impressive show of political focus, is that instead of getting fully wrapped up in that psychodrama, she just bared down and began releasing plan after plan after plan. And she was good at explaining them. And she's an incredibly talented policy communicator, always has been. And she just began inching up. And then just slowly through the entire campaign, she's just been gaining ground.

And nobody else really has. I mean, we know from everything that's going on right now in this impeachment inquiry that Donald Trump wanted to ruin Joe Biden's candidacy. Do we know, apart from Pocahontas and easy digs how he feels about running against Elizabeth Warren. Let's say first Donald Trump is going to want to ruin any Democrats candidacy and he's going to have an attack line on all of them. The thing about Donald Trump and Elizabeth Warren is Trump has clearly been annoyed by Warren for a long time. She gets under his skin in a way a lot of the other Democrats don't. And he's taken on this Pocahontas attack on her for a very, very long time.

And he said in a number of rallies, oh, I hit her too hard too early and now she's out. And I think he believes that he's got sort of a knockout attack on her, whereas I'm not sure that's true. I actually think that over time that has really, really lost a lot of its power. I actually want to reverse this, though, and say I think an important thing to look at is what the candidates' attacks on Donald Trump will be. And there I think Elizabeth Warren actually has a quite different line on what is wrong with Donald Trump than the other candidates on that stage do. And what's that? So there's always been an argument inside the Democratic primary about what is the campaign to run against Donald Trump. Joe Biden's version of the campaign to run against Donald Trump is Donald Trump is an affront to American values.

He is like an indecent man who disgraces America every moment he's on the world stage, which, you know what, that's true. Bernie Sanders' campaign against Donald Trump is that Donald Trump is a plutocrat, and he's screwing you over all the time. Elizabeth Warren has a relative of the Bernie Sanders case, but one that I think has actually come into much sharper focus and will continue to.

This was not hugely noticed at the time, but when she announced her candidacy, the first thing she did was she gave a huge speech on corruption. And this has been a thing for Warren going way, way back. The difference between Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren is Bernie Sanders, and he said this, is he's not positively oriented towards capitalism. Warren differs in that she says, I'm a capitalist to my bones. And what she believes is capitalism is great, but it has been corrupted. And Donald Trump is a symbol of that corruption. Now, it's time to call this out for exactly what it is. Corruption. Corruption when big corporations buy off government officials with thinly described bribes.

Corruption, when politicians curry favor with companies so they can get a lucrative job when they leave office. Corruption, when cabinet officials, when agency heads, and yes, when the President of the United States himself, have deep conflicts of interest and make themselves rich instead of working for the people. And now that Donald Trump has moved a lot of attention to his corruption with the Ukraine scandal, I think that actually puts the primary very much on Warren's turf, because she is, of all, I think, the Democrats, the most experienced and most capable at making a kind of thoroughgoing argument about corruption. And Donald Trump has made it much clearer that by making this impeachment effort, the thing that is going to dominate the news well into 2020, that his corruption is going to be the thing Democrats need to be able to have a clear

message on. And Warren is the one who has been developing that message for the longest time. You hear a lot of people make the argument that, oh, Donald Trump's going to destroy Elizabeth Warren. That's why we need to support a moderate, a Biden, a Buttigieg, a Beto. Do you buy that argument? So the way I would think about this is that there are electability pluses and minuses to a lot of the different candidates. And so Warren has developed an agenda that is very much to the lot of the different candidates. And so Warren has developed an agenda that is very much to the left of the Democratic Party. And if that is the only thing you're looking at and you're just asking a pure electability question, then yes, some of the more moderate candidates

are probably in a stronger position on that. But obviously, your policy agenda is not the only thing that decides your electability. Warren's facility as a communicator and her speed at which he's able to communicate and synthesize positions in debates and speeches in the ongoing campaign, her ability to punch back is very important. The thing that she is also very good at, which, by the way, Donald Trump with a lot of very unpopular policy positions was also very good at, is she uses policy not just as policy but to make a larger meta-argument about herself. One of the meta-arguments she's making in the Democratic primary is that she fights. Two, she doesn't back down. She doesn't compromise. She's not a kind of like a weak Democrat.

So you can expect that if Donald Trump throws a punch, she's going to throw it back. And three, that she's laser-focused on corruption in the American economy and how that's hurting and sort of the greed that that has enabled is hurting the middle, the working class, and the poor. Bring this back to how her campaign started, which was seemingly on a fumble, on a ham-fisted attempt to deal with Trump's Pocahontas claim. It feels like she went from trying to deal with Trump poorly to dealing with fellow Democrats really well.

Is there something about her competing with Democrats that will not properly prepare her to deal with Donald Trump. Are these two things really different? Because with Democrats, she's competing on policy and electability. And with Donald Trump, he's going to take the gloves off and play really dirty. I would say that in general, Warren is able to do something that a lot of Democrats temperamentally have trouble doing, which is match Trump's counterpunching in a way that gives her similar media space to him. Donald Trump launches a lot of very outrageous attacks against people. They are outrageous in a way that the media covers them very aggressively. So like the Pocahontas smear is a good example,

like that is a racist smear. But by being so offensive, it actually gets a lot of airtime. And he doesn't care, by the way, if people think that occasionally they fall flat or it looks bad on him. He just keeps going. Warren is, in general, able to do the same thing back to him. And like Donald Trump, has misfires. But she's actually very good at delivering hits in the way Donald Trump delivers them in her own way. And you saw it even the other night, there was a CNN town hall around LGBT equality issues. And she got this question. Let's say you're on the campaign trail and you're approached. I have been. And a supporter approaches you and says, Senator, I'm old fashioned and my faith teaches me that marriage is between one man and one woman.

What is your response? Well, I'm going to assume it's a guy who said that. And I'm going to say, then just marry one woman. Assuming you can find one. Right, she just, like, shut the thing down in a way that she's able to do a kind of counterpunching that has often been hard for Democrats with Trump. In some ways, what I think is actually more important for her and more telling is a capacity to retain focus. The thing you cannot let Donald Trump do is set the agenda day after day after day with nonsense. And the thing that

Warren proved, certainly to me and to others, was that at a time when there was like a lot of nonsense that she could have ended up chasing around, she bared down on a single strategy, a strategy for a long time people thought wasn't working and made it work. capacity to filter out the noise and focus in on your message, your signal, like your approach, that's valuable in a primary, it's valuable in a general election campaign, and not incidentally, it is valuable in a president where there's a tremendous amount of noise and you have to every day come in and remain focused on what your priorities are and what your spaces of leverage are. Thank you, Ezra. Thank you. Ezra Klein is the host of a podcast called The Ezra Klein Show, but you can also hear him on another Vox podcast, The Weeds, later today.

They also are going to do a debate wrap-up, but they're going to dig into the weeds of all the policy discussions that happened last night. I'm Sean Ramos for This Is Today Explained. Good evening. Do you want to know who to talk to, what to say, when to say it, and the best channel to deliver the message? MailChimp's all-in-one marketing platform allows you to manage more of your marketing activities from one place so you can market smarter and grow faster. Learn more at MailChimp.com.