Today, Explained - Disappeared

Episode Date: October 11, 2018

Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi visited the Saudi consulate in Istanbul last week, but he never left. Now, Turkish officials claim he was killed and then dismembered with a bone saw. Saudi dissident Ghanem al-Masarir al-Dosari explains how speaking out against the Saudi government became a matter of life or death. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The crown prince of Saudi Arabia, a guy people call MBS, may have just made a very big mistake. All right, now to this disturbing story. In an era where the press is under attack all over the world, the Washington Post is reporting one of its columnists has gone missing at a consulate in Turkey. Members of the United States and Turkish governments think that MBS authorized a hit squad to travel to Turkey and covertly kill a Saudi journalist who was there. The Crown Prince may have thought no one would notice. But people noticed, and it's not going away.

Justice for Jamal! Justice for Jamal! We want to know, where is Jamal? We want to know where is Jamal. Journalism is not a crime. Free Jamal Khashoggi. Free Jamal Khashoggi. Journalism is not a crime. Where is Jamal Khashoggi? Where is Jamal Khashoggi?

Al-Hayali Jamal Khashoggi. Al-Hayali Jamal Khashoggi. Al-Hayali Jamal Khashoggi. Jamal Khashoggi is a 59-year-old journalist. He's also a Washington Post columnist. He was last seen October 2nd in Istanbul, entering the Saudi consulate to get a document so that he could marry his Turkish fiancée.

He hasn't been seen since. Alexia Underwood is a foreign editor at Vox. Turkish authorities are claiming that he was murdered in the consulate. After Turkish police announced they were conducting a murder investigation, Saudi Arabia's state news agency denied accusations that Khashoggi was murdered in their consulate. So the Saudi government is denying that they've had any involvement, saying that he left the consulate through another entrance. They're also saying that they're looking to find him

and they're concerned about his whereabouts and that they're cooperating fully with the Turkish government's investigation. Three days later, Turkey's foreign ministry summoned Saudi Arabia's ambassador to Ankara. And Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman said Turkish police could search the Saudi consulate. They then invited journalists in to show Khashoggi was not there. On Tuesday night, the Washington Post reported that U.S. intelligence had actually intercepted communications of Saudi plans to lure Khashoggi and to bring him back to Saudi Arabia. They also said that the investigation has expanded to include the Consul General Mohamed El Otebi's residence since a vehicle left the consulate and went there for a few hours

around the same time that the journalist disappeared. And also the Turkish staff at the Consul General's house were told to take the day off, so that sounds kind of suspicious. The New York Times also reported on Tuesday that Khashoggi was assassinated at the direction of the Saudi royal court. So they're saying, according to their sources, that the direction came down on high to assassinate him. And different

officials, different Turkish officials and different sources have said that there's a team of 15 Saudi agents who flew from Riyadh and arrived in two private planes last Tuesday, the day that the journalist disappeared, and then left hours later. There's also all these gruesome rumors that are circulating. There was a Turkish official that said that he was killed and his body was dismembered with a bone saw. And they're also saying that there's video of the murder. But these things have yet to be confirmed. Wow. I mean, no one even knows if he's dead for sure, right? Nobody knows for sure.

Khashoggi's fiancée was pacing up and down outside the consulate, more and more anxious. Tell me a little bit more about Jamal Khashoggi. What's his background? He's not your quintessential dissident or activist, which is why this is a little bit more surprising. Until now, I don't call myself an opposition. I always say I am just a writer. I want a free environment to write and speak my mind. And that's what I do in the Washington Post. So he was a prominent journalist in the kingdom for several years.

He made his career in the 80s and 90s, working as a foreign correspondent for different Saudi newspapers, traveling across the Middle East. He interviewed Osama bin Laden several times. And it's not really fair, again, to call him a dissident. He edited the Saudi newspaper Al-Watan. He was the director of an Arabic-language news channel. So he was pretty prominent and part of the establishment. And then he also used to enjoy close ties to the Saudi royal family. He worked as an advisor to a prominent Saudi prince who used to be the former head of intelligence.

But over the past year, I would say, or year and a half, with the rise of the new crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, Khashoggi has become more critical of the Saudi government. And as Mohammed bin Salman, or MBS as we know him, has cracked down on free speech and sort of arrested a lot of Khashoggi's friends and writers and intellectuals, he became afraid that he was going to be arrested. So he left the country in the summer of 2017. He resettled in the D.C. area, and he said that he was living in self-imposed exile.

So what kinds of things has he been saying about MBS, who's the Saudi crown prince, who's essentially the leader of the country? I have some examples from pieces that he's written for The Washington Post. He was a columnist for the Global Opinion section. In a column from last September, which was titled, Saudi Arabia Wasn't Always This Repressive, now it's unbearable, he writes, My friends and I living abroad feel helpless. We want our country to thrive and to see the 2030 vision realized. We're not opposed to our government, and we care deeply about Saudi Arabia. It's the only home we know or want, yet we are the enemy.

I've made a different choice now. I've left my home, my family, and my job, and I'm raising my voice. To do otherwise would betray those who languish in prison. I can speak when so many cannot. I want you to know that Saudi Arabia has not always been as it is now. We Saudis deserve better. And then he also wrote in April of this year, in Saudi Arabia at the moment, people simply don't dare to speak. The country has seen the blacklisting of those who dare raise their voices, the imprisonment of moderately critical intellectuals and religious figures, and the alleged anti-corruption crackdown on royals and other business leaders. Women today should have the same rights as men, and all citizens should have the right

to speak their minds without fear of imprisonment. But replacing old tactics of intolerance with new ways of repression is not the answer. Did he know that he may have been risking his life to write these kinds of things? I think he did. In August, he told a journalist who is a contributing writer to The New Yorker, that he thought that the Saudi government was after him and that they would love to see him killed. He's expressed his fears to many people that he just couldn't keep living there. I have made it in my life. I can retire here in America happily and just write non-important issues and go on with my life. But I'm worried for my grandchildren. What worries me the most is one-man rule. It always goes wrong in any country,

whether we are talking about Saudi Arabia or Germany or Iraq. So who is MBS? He's new to the Saudi leadership, right? Yeah, so MBS, or Mohammed bin Salman, he's the crown prince and he is the heir to the throne. He's also essentially the de facto day-to-day ruler of Saudi Arabia. He really consolidated power in June of 2017, where he plotted against his cousin, Mohammed bin Nayef, and pushed him aside. And he has tried to paint

himself as this sort of reform-minded, like, young progressive leader in some ways. He's 33 years old. He's loosened restrictions on women driving in the kingdom. He's allowed cinemas to open. But at the same time, he's also engaged in this purge of opposition, and he has cracked down on activists. He's imprisoned dozens of activists. He's cracked down on free speech. And any dissident voices in the kingdom are in danger of being thrown in prison at this point. Even if somehow an investigation uncovers that Khashoggi was murdered, will there be consequences for MBS? You know, I don't think that there would be consequences for MBS. I do think that it would definitely change the relationship between Turkey and Saudi Arabia,

and it could put strain on the relationship between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia since Khashoggi was a resident of the U.S. President Trump has said that he's concerned about what's happening. It's a very sad situation. It's a very bad situation. And we want to get to the bottom of it. So on Wednesday, a bipartisan group of senators sent a letter to the Trump administration asking them to impose sanctions on anyone who is responsible for the disappearance of this journalist. And this letter that the senator sent triggered something called the Global Magnitsky Act of 2016. Now, this allows the U.S. to impose sanctions on individuals who have committed human rights abuses anywhere in the world. So the Trump administration now has 120 days

to decide whether or not to impose sanctions on Saudi officials. And this puts Trump in a tough spot. I don't like the concept of stopping an investment of $110 billion into the United States. Because you know what they're going to do? They're going to take that money and spend it in Russia or China or someplace else. So I think there are other ways. If it turns out to be as bad as it might be, there are certainly other ways of

handling the situation. First of all, it should be known that President Trump has been very, very supportive of Saudi Arabia and MBS. He hosted MBS at the White House. He chose Saudi Arabia as his first trip abroad. And also, the U.S. has supported the Saudi-led war on Yemen, which, as we know, is a really horrific war. It's a bloody war. Tens of thousands of people have been killed. And the U.S. is selling arms to Saudi Arabia. They're refueling planes. They're sharing intelligence with the country. So the U.S. could withdraw their support or, you know, they could stop helping the Saudis fight this really violent war in Yemen. Has the government and MBS disappeared others?

There are stories of Saudi expats who have been arrested or disappeared. There are stories of dissidents or activists who were arrested in the United Arab Emirates and in Jordan. And a Saudi activist in Canada who makes YouTube videos making fun of MBS and also calling out the Saudi government for their horrific human rights record has had two of his brothers and his friends in Saudi Arabia arrested. MBS is trying to send a message to Saudi expats and dissidents and activists, wherever they may be, saying if you speak out against the regime, even if you live in the U.S., even if you happen to be visiting another country, you aren't out of our reach. Like, we can still get you.

Coming up, I'm going to speak with a Saudi dissident who has been threatened by the government. He's scared of the government, but he's not going to be silenced. I'm Sean Ramos-Firm. This is Today Explained. المترجم للقناة This is the Saudi embassy here in London. I would like to send a message to King Salman. We are not afraid of you. Yes, sir. I'm sending a message to King Salman. He kidnapped Jamal Khashoggi yesterday in Saudi consulate in Turkey.

What do you think happened to him? Ghanem al-Musarir didn't personally know Jamal Khashoggi, but he knew his work. I know him from his articles, which I do respect and I do read them. And I also did criticize him for working with the government for this too many years and only figuring out at a later date that they are evil, not just MBS himself, all of them. Ghanem is less of a journalist, more of a dissident, a thorn in Saudi Arabia's side. No human rights, no freedom of speech. Basically, the royal family treats everyone like a slave. Saudi Arabia's side. think about the government or criticizing the royal family, you will end up in jail.

So you live in fear all the time. Since he left Saudi Arabia and moved to London in 2003, he's amassed hundreds of thousands of followers on social media where he lambasts the Saudi government for a living. Well, I have a YouTube channel. Two of them have been taken down by the Saudis. And my YouTube channel right now, the last one, لدي قناة يوتيوب وقامت بإخلاءها الثانية من السعوداء والقناة اليومية التي صنعتها في عام 2015 مازالت تتحرك وأنا متشكر لها الأكبر شخصية مسلمة في بريطانيا ورحت إلى صديقي اللورد أحمد

وهو اللورد الوحيد المسلم وسألته عن راية في جولة الأمير تركي Cyber war. And yeah, I'm using my Twitter account, which is going well. And I have no issue with Twitter. What do you post on your YouTube channel? What do you do online? I criticize them. I make joke of them. I am free and I say what I believe.

What kind of jokes? Give me like an MBS joke. MBS joke. Well, I called him Dub Dasher, which means fat. I don't know how to translate it to English. It has been very hard. Dub Dasher, it's like fat beer or something or beer out of control or something like that. Oh, it's a fat joke? So, we don't think he likes you. I don't think so. And I don't think he likes anyone who seeks democracy or freedom or who want to be free to say what they think, not just me. And I think he's

going outraged because he gets support or he thinks he's getting support, unlimited support from President Trump. I think he's trying to silence me and others. And if he's willing to do that with Jamal Khashoggi, I don't think he won't do it with me if he has the opportunity to do so. Do you ever feel scared that they're hacking you, that they're trying to quiet you? Of course, of course you feel scared. They have attacked me last 31st of August here in London in broad daylight by two Saudis who we presume they are Saudi agents.

What did they do to you? They punched me in the face and shouting King Salman and Mohammed bin Salman's name. They are saying, who am I to talk about them or to criticize them? And the case is with the UK police right now. And there are photos and there are videos of the attack. Ghanim, you've been attacked, you've been hacked. Jamal has probably been murdered.

Are you going to stop posting online? Sir, no, I will continue. And if he is going to kill me, this will show the whole world how evil he is. And I will definitely take extra measures to be very careful. But I will not be stopped. I will continue doing what I believe it's the right things to do. Do you still have family back home in Saudi Arabia? Yes, sir. I do have my family, but since the attack on me, I haven't heard anything from anyone from my family. Are you scared for your family? If they can disappear, a journalist, maybe even kill him, what would they do to a regular person who doesn't

have access to American media or international media? Absolutely, absolutely. Last year, I called for a demonstration in Saudi Arabia, and the government has sent a team to my parents' house, and they recorded them in a video. They asked them if they agree with me or not. They pressured them to disavow me in front of a camera. So if the government is willing to go that far, and I haven't heard anything come from my family since the attack on me on the 31st of August. And it is very, very scary. Very, very scary. Saudis uses their embassies and consulates to kidnap people to commit crimes. And I'm 100% sure there are many, many Saudis whose low profile has been lured to a Saudi embassy around the world and they've been kidnapped.

And we never heard of them because they have no voice and they are not well-known. You can find Ghanem Al-Musarir's show on YouTube. It's called The Ghanem Show. And he's on Twitter at Ghanem Al-Musarir. That's G-H-A-N-E-M-A-L-M-A-S-A-R-I-R. Thanks to Alexia Underwood at Vox. She's an editor on all things foreign and national security. This is Today Explained. Okay, so From Start to Sail is a new podcast from Eater. It's hosted by two founders of two startups that relate to food.

I spoke to Ice Cream on Tuesday, and now I'm going to try and get a hold of Bread. Hi, Sean. Hi, Aaron. Can I call you Bread? Oh, we don't make bread, though. I know. Apparently you guys make cookies. We make cookies and cake and scones and muffins and cookie pies and all that. I know, but I read about Ovenly. It's like a bakery. And I was like, oh, like bread.

And then I called your co-host on the podcast there, Start to Sail. And I was like, hey, I got to call your friend the bread half. And she was like, yeah, call the bread half. And then she was like, by the way, the bread half, it's like more like cookies and stuff. But I was already on this bread tear. And now I feel like we should clarify that Ovenly does not make bread. Ovenly does not make bread. But you, Erin, the founder of Ovenly, do now make a podcast. What's your favorite part of doing that? My favorite part of the show so far is the end of each episode.

At the end of each episode, we ask the entrepreneur what a skill is that really helped them launch their company to a next phase or that they really had to learn to be good leaders and can they break it down for the audience. And every single person has a different answer and each of those answers is amazing. You know, Jane Werwan from Dermalogica, her skill was how to empathetically fire someone. Kate and Penelope from Witch See,

their skill was how to fail and how to fail fast so you're not focusing on things you're bad at. What's your skill, Erin? Confrontation. Ooh, that sounds juicy. I guess we can hear more of that on From Start to Sail, wherever you find your podcasts.

Yep, along with a whole slew of amazing people.