Today, Explained - “Don’t Say Gay”

Episode Date: March 17, 2022

The furor over Florida’s latest culture-war legislation has Disney, among the state’s largest employers, turning red. This episode was produced by Haleema Shah, engineered by Efim Shapiro, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, and edited by Matt Collette and Sean Rameswaram, who also hosted. Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained Support Today, Explained by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We say gay! We say gay! We say gay! We say gay! By now, you've surely heard about Florida's Don't Say Gay Bill. In Northeast Florida, district officials confirmed that students of at least four Duval County schools and at least one St. John's County school staged similar demonstrations. It's understandably got a lot of people upset, and it's left a lot of people confused. Wait, what? Yeah, yeah, like teachers can't speak about gay people in history, or if a kid has a gay family member.

Wait, what? And now, Orlando's biggest employer is in a lot of hot water. M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E Mickey Mouse Today we're going to try and understand what Florida's got against gayness and how the Walt Disney Company got dragged into the middle of this culture war mess. It's Today Explained. M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express.

Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit Superstore.ca to get started. All right, Ramos Firm today explained the first thing you got to know about Florida's Don't Say Gay Bill is that it's not actually called Don't Say Gay. No, it's the Parental Rights and Education Bill. Danielle Pryor is a reporter with 90.7 WMFE Public Radio in Orlando. She's been covering the story. The idea is that parents should have more rights to decide kind of what children learn in classrooms. It's a big push of Governor DeSantis and Republicans here in the state of Florida.

And the idea is that parents should have some say in, you know, whether kids are learning about things that are considered age appropriate or inappropriate, depending on kind of which camp you're in. So I think we've strengthened parental involvement to say, look, you're in charge. And so we're going to protect your rights to be in charge and give you some tools in which to carry that out. Turns out this isn't the first time Florida has tried to censor what schools can talk about in the classroom. We've seen bills like Don't Say Gay. We've seen bills like the Stop Woke Act, a bill that's also on its way to the governor's desk. And that bans critical race theory in classrooms and bans conversations about history that makes students uncomfortable, right? So if you think about, you know, teaching

slavery in classrooms or the civil rights movement or things like that, you would have to be very careful about how you talk about certain things and the activities that you do to teach that history so as not to make someone, quote, uncomfortable. And so we've seen bills here in Florida, which are all trying to kind of decide what kids learn, what they can discuss and what they can read in classrooms, whether that's talking about LGBTQ people or Black and brown people. And what is the parental rights and education bill or don't say gay explicitly say about, I don't know, saying gay, I guess? You know, it's so vague, Sean. It really is. It's this idea that, you know, kids in kindergarten through third grade classrooms won't be able to

discuss gender identity and sexuality. So the bill at its core prohibits schools from discouraging or prohibiting parental notification and involvement in critical decisions that affect the student's mental, emotional, or physical well-being. But it is the clause about restrictions on teaching LGBTQ topics that's gotten the most attention. So that could mean so many different things, right? It could mean, you know, a kindergartner maybe couldn't read a book about someone having two mommies and two daddies. Or it could be, you know, a second grade classroom, if they usually do, you know, one of those like family tree craft projects that will they be able to talk about their transgender brother or sister, right? When they're kind of displaying their family tree proudly in the classroom. And another part is that even the older kids in middle school and high school

won't be able to talk about LGBTQ content if it's considered, quote, age inappropriate. Initially, the bill's language said that schools could not encourage discussion, but that was criticized for being way too broad. So discussion was changed to instruction. Also, the bill allows schools and school districts to out a child to their parent or guardian. So if a child was to talk to a teacher or counselor and say, hey, I think I might be gay or I think I might be trans, districts, unless this information would cause harm in some way to the child,

are required to share that with families. But the bill's sponsor did file a controversial amendment that would have essentially erased that exception. That amendment, however, was withdrawn before the vote on the bill. How much are schools and children talking about sexual orientation and gender identity in kindergarten through the third grade as it is? I would assume not much. I was a high school teacher, actually, before I was a journalist. And I can tell you that the only time we really talked about those issues, at least in my English classroom, is, you know, it would come up in books. So there would be gay characters, there would be trans characters in books. But other than that, not much.

I mean, I could imagine like maybe a history teacher would talk about maybe like LGBTQ civil rights history, Stonewall, Harvey Milk, that sort of thing. But I can't imagine, especially in the lower grades, unless like I said, it's in a book or maybe like in a movie or something like that. But even then, I would assume it would be pretty rare. What does the bill say about what happens if a teacher does bring up sexual orientation or gender identity in, say, a third grade classroom? What happens to that teacher? So basically, it opens the door for lawsuits, unsurprisingly. And so school districts and

school boards, I think, are very nervous right now to see what will happen if a parent decides, you know what, my child, you know, like I said, read a book about gay people in class, and I'm upset about this, and now I'm going to sue the school district, sue the school board. Whether that'll be found to kind of hold water or not is uncertain at this time. But I think it's a concern. And unfortunately, it'll probably have a chilling effect on teachers when they're lesson planning. Unlike the Stop Woke Act, though, which I suppose we've been seeing stuff like that against critical race theory across the country. Now, Governor DeSantis and other legislators in

Florida want to police conversations about queerness. And last time I checked, there are a whole lot of queer people in Florida. There are. There are. And there's even out people in the state legislature, some of whom you've seen, like Carlos Guillermo Smith, who has been fighting against this Don't Say Gay bill for months now. There's nothing inappropriate about visibility for LGBTQ families.

LGBTQ Floridians are a healthy and normal part of every society and of every school. And is really concerned about how this is going to affect LGBTQ kids' mental health. We know that those kids tend to have higher rates of anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideation, and they also tend to have higher rates of homelessness. And so I think he's really concerned, and a lot of LGBTQ advocates in the state are really concerned about, you know, if you are telling kids that innately who they are is inappropriate and making them scared to come out in schools. You know, what is this going to do to this very, very vulnerable set of kids throughout the state? Over 200 people gathering outside Disney calling for action.

The AIDS Healthcare Foundation holding two rallies, one in Florida and the other in California. The goal, call on Disney to speak out against the parental rights and education bill. They are taking to the streets. We have kids throughout the state who have staged walkouts. In Tampa, in Palm Coast, even in the halls of the state capitol, just one bill was on the minds of thousands of students across the Sunshine State. We've seen caravans honking and holding signs. I think my favorite was, trans kids are magical too, Disney.

But basically, you know, the idea that like there are a lot of people in this state, not just gay people, but allies as well, right? Their family and their friends who are really taking to the streets and letting people know that they don't support these measures. There's people, you know, boycotting Disney now

because of its kind of late addition to the game. Huh. What's up with Disney? How does Disney get involved here? Disney has been called on for several weeks now to oppose this bill. And it took CEO Bob Chapek several weeks of demonstrations, not just here in Florida, but also in California at the theme parks there to finally speak up and say that he was concerned. And, you know, the problem is that it was only after the bill passed both the Florida House and the Senate that he kind of came forward and said, I called Governor DeSantis this morning to express our disappointment and concern that if legislation becomes law, it could be used to unfairly target gay, lesbian, non-binary, and transgender kids and families.

So it's like a little too late type thing. There's walkouts happening all throughout this week. There's going to be a huge walkout throughout the country on March 22nd at Disney theme parks. And the idea there is like, why did it take so long for JPEG to oppose this bill? And because he's waited so long, will it be enough to really stop it from becoming law? He's supposed to meet with the governor still and a small delegation of castmates who are LGBTQ, but we haven't seen that yet. And it's very unclear of when the governor is going to sign this into law. And so I think a lot of people are just very concerned because Disney is one of our biggest employers here in Florida. They're one of the biggest kind of economic players in the state.

And they have a lot of LGBTQ employees. And is the thinking here that Disney has enough power to throw around in Florida that they could just shut this legislation down? I think the thinking is that maybe if they had spoken earlier, they would have been able to, right? Kind of as Disney goes, so does the rest of Florida. And I was so fascinated by this because I'm not from Florida. I'm from Michigan. But at the beginning of the pandemic, when Disney closed down their parks, it's when everybody else closed down their parks. You know, then you saw Universal and SeaWorld. Does Disney try and stay out of politics in Florida or is the company very involved? No, for the most part, at least with the new CEO, Bob Chapek, they have.

And I think that, you know, this is a tricky bill in the sense of, you know, there are some parents that are for it and some parents that are against it. And I'm sure that the company feels like they have to walk a fine line, but I think you're going to see more and more protests and demonstrations from workers. And not only does Disney support every single sponsor and co-sponsor on this bill politically with their contributions, but also have effectively censored any same-sex attraction in recent movies and scripts that have come forward. And so they're arguing that, like, not only does the company support this legislation, but also really kind of is not letting them tell stories that are, you know, stories that should be told of LGBTQ kids and families. Because those people are watching movies as well, right? And they love Disney too. So Disney tries to remain above the political fray, but it's actually sponsoring a bunch of these legislators who are behind this Don't Say Gay bill? Yes, they've actually politically contributed, let's say, to campaigns of every single sponsor and co-sponsor on this bill. They've directly, obviously, supported

Governor DeSantis, the Republican Party of Florida. They also, you know, sponsor and support a bunch of Democrats. You know what I mean? We saw last week that they came out and said, you know, they're going to pause political contributions. They're going to reevaluate their framework of political giving and that they're going to support more LGBTQ nonprofits. But then we saw, you know, they tried to donate to the human rights campaign and the human rights campaign wouldn't take the donation. Sounds like it's not going to be the happiest place on earth for a while. I'm not sure. You know, I think that sometimes it's through these difficult times, right, that you can come out happier in the end. I hope maybe that it is through this hard moment that it becomes a happier place maybe for all workers and for all people.

And especially when it comes to the content and the stories that they tell, maybe this will finally make the difference that so many people have been waiting to see. Disney's complicated relationship with the gays? In a minute on Today Explained. Support for Today Explained comes from R.A.M.P. Welcome to you. Support for Today Explained comes from Ramp. Ramp is the corporate card and spend management software designed to help you save time and put money back in your pocket. Ramp says they give finance teams unprecedented control and insight into company spend. With Ramp, you're able to issue cards to every employee with limits and restrictions and automate expense reporting so you can stop wasting time at the end of every month. And now you can get $250 when you join Ramp. You can go to ramp.com slash explained, ramp.com slash explained, r-a-m-p.com slash explained.

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Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Have you ever seen anything so wonderful in your entire life? Cool. Today Explained, we're back. Alex Abad-Santos writes about culture for Vox, which means he sometimes writes about Disney critically,

but he's not going to lie, he's got a favorite Disney movie. Obviously, Little Mermaid. Sebastian Flounder. And as a kid, he had a little Disney obsession. I grew up in Orange County, California, 20 minutes away from Disneyland. I almost didn't graduate because I skipped so much school and was just always at Disneyland or always at the mall. And so those are the, like, if you ever have children growing up close to Disneyland, know that they're going to probably skip school one day and go enjoy a ditch day at Disneyland. Now he's less of a disney adult so i think when you think about disney you also have like disney

adults right who like spend a lot of their money and disposable income on going and having these vacations at the park of those disney adults there's probably a subsection of like we'll call them disney gays or queer people that love Disney. And it's just something about Disney resonates with them. When it comes to LGBTQ Disney people, there's even like a holiday. Well, like an unofficial holiday where it's called Gay Days. Hey, what's up? It's Prince Exvidad here. And I'm at the Magic Kingdom, very obviously. And I'm having a great time.

It's gay days. I'm having the gayest of days. And it happens at Disney parks in the U.S., though not officially sponsored by Disney. Started in the 90s, gay people go, they wear a red t-shirt. Straight people don't wear that. It's this day of visibility, and you all go and celebrate, celebrate like a day of gay pride at the park. When you talk to LGBTQ Disney fans, you talk to them and you get the sense that like these stories resonate with them. And so I think like when you take a little mermaid, Ariel lives in

this undersea kingdom where she just is, I guess, doesn't want to sing in her dad's musicals. Her dad is a giant buff guy. But she falls in love with a man who everyone's like, you can't go up there. You can't live in that world. It's not for you. That's the bad place. And I mean, that's the metaphor, I think, for queer people who have ever been told, like, you have to live with us. But deep down, you know that you can't really survive and all the stuff that you love is somewhere else. And so I think there's an allegory there, a seamless allegory. Same thing with Beauty and the Beast. It's just like, you're supposed to fall in love with someone that they say you're supposed to fall in love with, not a beast. But I also think that if you

look at any Disney movie, even Frozen, or even Encantoanto or even Moana, there's this whole idea of like, if you're yourself, that's like the most powerful self you can be. And I think for LGBTQ people who have often been told that there's something wrong or that this world isn't built for them, those are very empowering things that resonate with them. So does Disney do anything to more proactively support the LGBTQ community, or is it all sort of suggestion and innuendo and some pride merchandise? If you look back in the 90s, Disney has been kind of good to its employees. When partner benefits and domestic partner benefits for gay people wasn't really a thing, they extended those health benefits to their employees. If you look at the company, there are some key LGBTQ creators who played a part in creating some of the best movies or what we associate with Disney today, like The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, and Aladdin.

It's a quiet, I think they think quiet, you know what I mean? A quiet village. Yeah. The big touchstones for queer people who are fans of Disney is Howard Ashman. My background is in musical theater. And it's interesting because I do think there's a very, very strong connection and application between the two media. He's a lyricist, genius. He wrote Little Shop of Horrors.

Feed me, Carpon! Feed me now! And then went to Disney and helped create songs for The Little Mermaid and Aladdin. It's me, Prince Ali. Prince Ali Ababwa. He died of AIDS before Aladdin was finished. But before then, he was working on Beauty and the Beast, which I mean, a lot of queer people take

as an allegory for living with AIDS or falling in love with a gay person. I think there's a line in that Beauty and the Beast song that's like, everyone's a little bit scared, neither one prepared. I mean, not trying from my own experience, but what queer person isn't scared to fall in love with someone that they're not supposed to? I feel like those are very distinct parallels between Howard Ashman's songwriting and, I guess, the queer experience. Small to say the least

Both a little scared Neither one prepared Beauty and the Beast. Does Disney acknowledge the fact that Howard Ashman was gay? That he died of AIDS? Disney released a documentary about Howard Ashman. It's streaming on Disney+, I believe. It was such a poignant contrast.

The joy and the magic of that movie and the fact that he was literally staring death in the face at the age of 39. But one of the big criticisms of that documentary was that him being gay was such a small part of it and him dying of AIDS was such a small part of it and I don't think that people wanted like Disney going long and hard and deep on the AIDS crisis but they wanted like it's queer fans wanted to see like hey well this is a man who probably drew from his own experience is it fair to say that like Disney supports the queer community to a point that's the vibe I'm getting with their sort of treatment of Ashman in this documentary I mean I think a lot of the criticism that comes with Disney is that it's, and if you talk to its biggest fans, it's like they're always waiting for Disney to kind of catch up. You have all this subtext in these stories and you have all this rich history of

some key creators being LGBTQ and helping to make some iconic movies, at the same time, visible representation and visible inclusion has kind of been lagging. And so those, I guess those queer fans are just like, well, when are you going to catch up to us? Like we've waited a very long time. And I think that's happening with this bill kind of. It's kind of this realization that this company that you've been waiting for and you've been like hoping for is kind of like dragging its feet a little bit

and it's not just disney but it's also star wars and marvel and and like uh you have to think about those two and it's like disney as a company has said like well we want more diverse stories we want more inclusive movies and then there's an expectation there that like, okay, well, let's see if your company matches up to that. And then you can't support your LGBTQ fans and your LGBTQ employees against this bill that's basically saying, we don't want our children to learn about like someone having two moms, basically, or someone having two dads. And that's hurtful. I could see where that hurt comes from, from people who were expecting better.

Alex Abad-Santos is a culture writer at Vox. He's not not a Disney gay. Earlier in the show, you heard from Danielle Pryor. She's a reporter with 90.7 WMFE Public Radio in Orlando. You can find and support her work at WMFE.org. Halima Shah made our show today. She had the Velcro Mulan shoes as a kid, not the light-up ones, though. We were fact-checked by Laura Bullard. Here's a fact. The back room in Homeward Bound was one of the first things Laura ever had nightmares about. Another fact. Peter Pan was the first movie our engineer Afim Shapiro saw in the United States after immigrating from Israel. I'm Sean Ramos for him. I went to see Toy Story 3 in the theater alone 12 years ago in Santa Cruz, California and sobbed in the dark at the ending.

I edited the show today along with Matthew Collette, whose favorite Disney movie is The Empire Strikes Back. He'd like to remind you the movie has a princess. It's today explained. you