Today, Explained - Fine dining isn’t fine

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

Chef René Redzepi said his Copenhagen restaurant, Noma, deemed the best in the world, isn't sustainable and will close next year. But if an establishment charging top dollar can't survive, what restaurant can? KCRW's Evan Kleiman explains. This episode was produced by Hady Mawajdeh, edited by Matt Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Paul Robert Mounsey, and hosted by Noel King. Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained   Support Today, Explained by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King. And earlier today I went online and tried to book a table at the famed Noma in Copenhagen. It's game and forest season, so moose, mallard and reindeer are on the menu. But I couldn't get a table. Noma's booked up through the end of the season. And that is okay, ultimately, because in this economy, spending $500, the fixed price before wine, on any meal is a lot. And it's not just for me that this feels unsustainable. Noma's renowned chef, a man named Rene Redzepi, has acknowledged it's too much for him, too. He's closing the restaurant saying this is simply too hard and he's going to turn Noma into a food lab. Noma is considered by

many people to be the best restaurant in this world. So how is it possible that it can't survive? And what does that mean for the places where the rest of us go to eat? Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King. Evan Kleiman is the host of Good Food on KCRW. Evan has never eaten at Noma in Copenhagen, but she does know Rene Redzepi. Rene Redzepi is, you know, the words genius, I think, would not be inappropriate here. He's just one of those people whose passion, curiosity, and focus managed to result in this very different experience of what a restaurant is and what the food is served in that restaurant.

Where did he come from? Chef Rezepi, Rene, is the child of a Danish mother and an Albanian father who was an immigrant to the Republic of Macedonia when it was still Yugoslavia. And he was raised both in Denmark and in Macedonia. And until 1992, when the war broke out, I spent quite a lot of time in Macedonia every year. It was a completely different lifestyle from the Western world. Back then, it was extremely rural.

You ate what you had yourself, which meaning what you could grow. You worked the land, you harvested. The Macedonian experience for him left its mark. It was a multi-generational household in a rural setting. So he got to run around, explore nature. And of course, the house was always filled with people and filled with home cooking. And I think that that closeness he felt to the land and to the experience of being a kid running around exploring things never left him. As a child, it's fantastic to grow up in that sense, because you're out there on the fields, you're eating things when they're just harvested.

And it makes me perhaps see possibilities in some products where 100% native, just see it as something old fashioned or that can only be seen in one specific context. When does he decide that he's going to become a chef? When he was 15, he decided that instead of continuing on in high school, that he would go to culinary school. Young. That is not uncommon in Europe. In Europe, they have vocational avenues for people who don't want to go to college. And so there is a very robust educational and apprentice system in place. And so it isn't uncommon for a person that young to make the decision and then soon thereafter find themselves slaving away at the lowest levels in a palace of dining.

And was he in a palace of dining or was he in like an Applebee's? He was in a very high level restaurant in Copenhagen for many years. And then after that, he got a position at a restaurant in the south of France, I believe. You have to go back in time and understand in the 90s that in that time, as a cook, French food was the only thing you looked towards. You thought that you were going to cook French food in Denmark. That's what I always thought to myself. And then after that, he started to do various stages or internships in other parts of the world, including the famed El Bulli in Spain and the French Laundry in California. You come from somewhere.

The collective of you belongs to a lot of different influences. And in the case of mine, one of the main influences that gave me my philosophical drive in cooking came from my experience at El Bulli back then. And I'm ever grateful for that. And then how does Noma come about? I believe he was 23 or 24 when a money guy in Denmark gives him the opportunity to be the head chef of a new restaurant that he's opening. And that becomes Noma. And then what is the reception and what does he become known for? I think it's really helpful to look at Rene as an artist. And I don't say that about chefs almost ever, because I really do believe that cooking at nearly every level except the absolute most rarefied is a craft, not an art.

Oh, good distinction. and he starts developing as a, I mean, he's a human who has all the curiosity and intelligence and voraciousness to learn still, even though he's head of this kitchen. I think it's so easy often just to go back to what you know, but that's not where we want to be with this restaurant. That's not where I want to be with this project or this culinary life that we've chosen at the restaurant Noma. And he, I think, influenced by what he experienced in California, where when he was there, it was very much an ethos of farm totable, local. I think that ethos drilled into him, and I think he wanted to give himself the challenge

of trying to see if he could accomplish cooking from his local environment given that it was a Nordic environment, which no one had ever done. That's the thing that makes the whole clockwork start. Your brain tick. I really don't know. I'm searching for answers. I need to read. I need to study. I need to talk to people. We need to assemble. We need to figure out the solution. And that's when new things happen and you learn more about yourself and the world. So I love that.

And so he begins to create what was named the New Nordic Cuisine. We found out that trees can be an ingredient in themselves. The sap, the shoots, the leaves, and even the wood can be used. We found snails and mahogany clams, berries when salted taste like olives. And that really hit the foodie world big time because it was such a challenge and so unusual. And it was truly something new. We are indeed gastronauts, not exploring the moon, but Mother Earth. Sonoma opens in 2003. In 2006, it appeared for the first time on the 50 best

restaurants in the world list. It was number 33. But then it steadily began to climb, and in three years, it was number three and won Chef's Choice, which meant that the chefs around the world who were on that list loved it. Then it hit number one three years in a row from 2010 to 2012. And, you know, in all of this, we've been talking about the restaurants and the diners, but it's really hard to overstate the influence he's had on chefs and cooks from all over the world who then begin to knock on the door and ask for internships. Because to have Noma on your resume, it's like shorthand saying, I have experienced this rigorous, creative, and focused experience at the highest level. You've interviewed Rene Redzepi. Do you have any insight into why he's closing NOMA? I think it's something that has been in the works for him for a while. I mean, he is not a person to make a decision this big overnight. It's interesting

because I interviewed him at the end of the year, and listening back to that interview, I can hear all kinds of hints. For example, he talked with such joy and affection about a 30-day walk he took through Japan, staying at just regular people's houses and in, you know, humble inns along the way. And I think he's a person, I mean, he's 45, and he's looking forward to the rest of his life. And he's married. He has kids. And I think that this kind of experience, being able to take a month to do nothing but walk through a food culture, is something that just feeds him and is something that is very difficult to do when you have the pressure of a daily restaurant on your back. Also, this whole sort of reassessing of what work is for people, what labor is, and

what is fair and what is kind of inhumane came very solidly to roost in the restaurant business during the pandemic. Restaurant work, it's brutal. I mean, it's very difficult work that is profitable on the backs of the lowest paid. And for years, Noma and other fine dining restaurants at this level are fueled by unpaid interns. And in October of 2021, Noma started paying interns. And I am sure that that experience of having to meet that payroll was a come-God kind of moment. Can't imagine it would have been anything else. You know, if you go on the NOMA website and you click on people, the list of humans it takes to run that place is kind of like the movie credits of a movie like Avatar. It's just this huge list of people, and you have to support all those people.

Ahead in the second course, I will never eat at Noma, but Noma matters for the less pricey places I and you eat. And Evan is going to explain why. Support for Today Explained comes from Aura. Aura believes that sharing pictures is a great way to keep up with family. And Aura says it's never been easier thanks to their digital picture frames. They were named the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter. Aura frames make it easy to share unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame. When you give an aura frame as a gift, you can personalize it.

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Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. It's Today Explained. We're back with Evan Kleiman, who's the host of Good Food on KCRW. She's also a chef herself. Evan, Rene Rencepi says he's got to close Noma because he can't afford to do it anymore.

It's become too expensive. But if I were going to eat at Noma, I would pay around $500, which feels to me like a ton of money. I might pay $30 for dinner at Applebee's and they're doing okay. Like what is the breakdown here of cost versus... Or you can't. I mean, they're not in the same world. You can't compare them. Would you mind explaining why? Because I think it's an obvious question for people who don't eat at places like Noma. Yes, $500 is a huge amount of money. And, you know, I've never been to the restaurant in Copenhagen, partly because, you know, it would have been a choice to get on a plane, find a hotel, pay that money. And for me, that was a very difficult decision, and obviously I never made it. But there are a lot of people who made that decision,

and not all of them are billionaires or even millionaires. People would often just include it as part of the entertainment or the experiences or the adventures of their travels in Scandinavia. Noma, where it is now, and it moved in 2017 to an island that is still part of Copenhagen, and it isn't like one building. It's a compound. So the restaurant itself where people sit and dine is not one room. It's kind of like several different huts. And then there's the large R&D facility. It's a whole infrastructure that you need to support as well as all the salaries and all the benefits. It would be better to compare it to your local family-run neighborhood restaurant,

which in its own way deals with the same amount of financial pressure as Noma does. Depending upon what city it is, there's rent, there's taxes, many, many, many different kinds of taxes. You know, I was a restaurateur. I had a restaurant for 30 years, so I know about this. There is all kinds of insurance and there's payroll. And then, of course, there's, you know, your physical and mental labor, which is not inconsiderable in the restaurant business. I think you make a good point. Let's not compare this to Applebee's, which has something like 1,500 plus locations in the U.S., but what are the financial challenges of a fine dining restaurant that maybe you wouldn't find at a chain restaurant? I think it's even worse maybe in restaurants that are just below the fine dining model.

Because in fine dining, the customer understands what they're paying for and is willing to pay for service that is usually included. And if not, they tip like crazily. But in a regular restaurant that maybe isn't quite fine dining, but is really a nice restaurant, this idea that most restaurants still rely on the diners to leave a tip to make their payroll is so antiquated and is really a conundrum. And yet, this is the model on which all restaurants live or die on. And I just think it's absurd. I really do. It's just, it needs to die. But diners won't let it die. The vast majority of people can't throw down the kind of money that it would take to eat at Noma. And yet, it seems important to people in your line of work that this institution is closing. Tell me why a person who might never

have the opportunity to eat at Noma should care about Noma? The apex is really important to any discipline. The people that are creating the best, the most interesting, the constantly changing. You know, a lot of restaurants, their menus never change. My menu never changed or changed very little over the course of its 30-year existence. You know. It was a snapshot of a certain thing. Their menus change constantly. To me, one of the saddest parts is, in a way, Noma acted as an incubator for so many chefs and cooks who wanted to have that experience of being in this rigorous environment where they could really hone a particular type of craft and then go out into the world and internalize it and create something that would be wholly theirs. So that will be, to a lesser degree, available. And that is something that really affects everybody.

Your answer makes me think of something. So did you ever see The Devil Wears Prada? Yes, of course. Okay, remember where Andy is wearing this blue sweater, and she says something flip. Something funny? No, no, nothing, you know, it's just... And Meryl Streep then lays out how three years ago, that color blue was super popular in very high fashion.

What you don't know is that that sweater is not just blue, it's not turquoise, it's not lapis, it's actually cerulean. And you're also blithely unaware of the fact that in 2002 Oscar de la Renta did a collection of cerulean gowns and then I think it was Yves Saint Laurent, wasn't it, who showed cerulean military jackets? I think we need a jacket here. And then Cerulean quickly showed up in the collections of eight different designers. Do you think there is a comparison here that fine dining starts at an apex, but then it might trickle down into the sort of place I might go and pay $40 or $50 or $60 for dinner? Absolutely. 100%. That is a really, really good analogy.

Fermentation is like the first thing I think about. 20 years ago, you didn't see all these, you know, lacto-fermented pickles made out of many, many different kinds of foodstuffs on millions of different dishes and, you know, thousands of restaurants all over the world. But you do now. The idea of foraging and finding unusual ingredients out in nature that maybe you wouldn't expect, now, you know, they'll pop up. What are some other things? I think the idea of playfulness. Because if you go to Noma, it's not a palace of fine dining in the sense that three-star

Michelin French restaurants have always been. There aren't linen tablecloths. There aren't little poofs sitting next to your seat for your purse. There isn't this hushed environment like a church where you're afraid to laugh. It's a very, very playful, informal, extremely beautiful, but in a very rustic, informal way. And I know that at least here in Los Angeles, I mean, that totally you can see in every high-end restaurant. There are almost no white tablecloth restaurants anymore. Let me ask you, Leslie Evan, did you see the movie The Menu? Yeah, of course. Welcome to Hawthorne.

I'm Julian Sloic, and tonight and animals, and at times entire ecosystems. This made me think a lot about Rene Redzepi. This poor chef has been so put upon and the creativity has been stripped from what he does. And he is accountable to an angel investor. And he goes nuts. I've allowed my work to reach the price point where only the class of people in this room can access it. And I've been fooled in trying to satisfy people who can never be satisfied. But that's our culture, isn't it?

And my restaurant is part of the problem. Is there anything to the idea that the way this system is set up is so stressful for chefs and for the people who work with them? Is there something to the idea that this kind of stuff drives people crazy? Well, first of all, Chef Julian Slovic in the movie is not Rene Redzepi. Fair play. I'm glad you cleared it up. Yeah. And Hawthorne is not Noma. I would say the menu is the opposite of Noma and Red Zeppi. But to me, watching the menu, it felt to me like it was workshopped by servers who wanted to get their revenge on all the people that they waited on. But I do think that the idea of mental health in the restaurant world is a very real challenge right now and something that is finally, after way too many years, being addressed. You know, the nature of the work is long hours in the kitchens in very trying physical environments under a great deal of pressure when you're actually doing service getting constant reviews you know minute by minute by

diners i mean just like any job where you are pushing yourself and you're being pushed simultaneously. I mean, it's a pressure cooker. Cooking in a kitchen is a young person's game. And especially at that level, you have to have the stamina, the energy, and in some ways, the ability to absorb things that are injurious to yourself. You know, that kind of devil may care young person's attitude of just flinging yourself into something with your whole heart and soul. And then you grow up and you take your eyes off the plates and you look outside the windows of the restaurant and you see that there's a world. You know, some people want more balance. And I think all of the restaurant world is trying to

figure out what that balance looks like and how to achieve it. It's a challenge. Today's episode was produced by Hadi Mouagdi and edited by Matthew Collette. It was fact-checked by Laura Bullard and engineered by Paul Robert Mouncey. I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. Today Explained. Thank you.