Today, Explained - From Alligator Alcatraz to South Sudan

Episode Date: July 10, 2025

The Trump administration is not happy with their deportation numbers. They're turning to more extreme strategies to hit 1 million by year's end. This episode was produced by Gabrielle Berbey, edited by Miranda Kennedy, fact checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Patrick Boyd and Andrea Kristinsdottir, and hosted by Noel King. Listen to Today, Explained ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Transcript at vox.com/today-explained-podcast. The entrance to the Alligator Alcatraz migrant detention center in Ochopee, Florida. Photo by Pedro Portal/Miami Herald/Tribune News Service via Getty Images. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

President Trump met with the leaders of five African nations at the White House yesterday. One oops got all the attention when Trump paid Liberia's president a compliment. Well, thank you. You have such good English, such beautiful. Where did you learn to speak so beautifully? English is Liberia's official language. Were you educated where? Yes, sir.

In Liberia? Yes, sir. Well Liberia? Yes, sir. Well, that's very interesting. Anyway, you know what happened behind closed doors right before that meeting? President Trump pushed those African leaders to accept people who are being deported from the U.S. That's according to a Wall Street Journal exclusive. The Trump administration is going increasingly ham on sending people who entered the US illegally to countries that they are not from.

In fact, it's trying all kinds of ideas to increase the pace of deportations. And we're going to tell you the latest Today on Today Explained. Support for this program comes from FM. Established nearly two centuries ago, FM is a leading mutual insurance company whose capital, scientific research capability and engineering expertise are solely dedicated to property risk management and the resilience of its policyholder owners. These owners, who share the belief that the majority of property loss is preventable, work with FM to better understand the hazards that

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and deported in the first place. The administration is also increasing the number of deportation arrangements with different countries, want to have those countries take back their citizens who are in the country illegally, but it is also importantly asking different countries across the world to take back deportees who are not their own citizens. And it has already convinced countries in the region like El Salvador, but also Panama, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras, and others to take back people who are not from those countries. It has secured some limited agreements with countries like

South Sudan, Kosovo, and Europe and others, including Rwanda, to have the U.S. deport people who are not from those countries to those nations. I want to ask you about South Sudan, because there was a story last week that I think flew a little bit under the radar in which some men were actually sent from the U.S. to South Sudan. Can you tell us what happened there?

Yes. So for the past few weeks, the Trump administration has been trying to deport a group of eight men with serious criminal records to South Sudan. But those efforts had been blocked by a federal judge in Boston who had found that these detainees needed to at the very least be screened and interviewed by a US asylum officer before being deported to South Sudan. Trump administration is now fighting back after a judge ruled the administration broke the law by deporting eight undocumented migrants. The White House attempting to send these men from various countries to the nation of South Sudan. A federal judge in Massachusetts said Wednesday the Trump administration's deportation of eight migrants

quote, unquestionably violates a court order blocking deportations to third countries without allowing detainees to contest their removal. And the reason behind that is because of course, this is the youngest country in the world and it is one plagued by political instability and armed conflict. The US State Department actually, Noel, warned Americans not to visit this country because of the threat of being kidnapped or otherwise harmed. And so advocates for immigrants were really concerned that these men could be victimized or otherwise harmed in South Sudan. If deported there, the U.S. decided to send them to an American military base in Djibouti to undergo

that screening and they were stuck there for weeks until the Supreme Court just a few weeks ago, allowed the administration to carry out these third country deportations with a very limited degree of due process and notice, and then later clarify that that order also allowed the administration to deport these men to South Sudan. A significant win for the Trump administration here, the high court allowing them to resume deporting migrants to countries other than their homeland.

And we're talking about some turmoil-ridden countries like South Sudan. Yeah, the reaction here, especially the ordinary South Sudanese people, are actually concerned because they say these are criminals. And if America, a great nation, is actually fearing them to stay in the US,S. Why would they be brought here? And it is really important to remind everyone, obviously,

that the men we're talking about, Noel, don't hail from South Sudan. They are from countries like Cuba, Myanmar, Mexico, and other countries in Latin America and Asia not from South Sudan. other countries in Latin America and Asia, not from South Sudan. Do we know what happens to the men when they get there? It is really unclear. The US has said that South Sudan is offering them a temporary immigration status so they

can live in that African country for a certain period of time that will be dictated by officials there. The US said that it has not asked South Sudan to detain them, but the concern among advocates is that the human rights record of this country is not a very good one, and so they have concerns about what could happen to these men. Of course, South Sudan knows about their criminal histories, which are very serious in nature. Some of their convictions include convictions for homicide and sexual assault. And they believe that could potentially cause officials

to take any retaliatory action against these men rather. And so that is a concern, but the problem here is that these agreements have been very secretive in scope. Okay, so this is a bit of a patchwork mess. You do have some countries potentially saying we will take people, but we won't take people with serious criminal records. What other countries are we talking about here? Is there like a list somewhere? Well, we know, for example, that the US under the Trump administration has already deported third country migrants to

places like Costa Rica and Panama, which received deportees from Africa and Asia earlier in the second Trump administration. The US began flying hundreds of migrants, mostly from Asian, Middle Eastern and African countries to Panama. Just last night, these folks who've been deported from the United States to Panama were transported to a camp near the Darien jungle. And there's about a hundred of them, including eight children who are now at that jungle camp.

The country of Kosovo in Europe has agreed to take 50 people, which is again, a limited number, but it is still significant because it is the first country in that continent in Europe to agree publicly at least to accept third country nationals under the Trump administration. The US has cut a deal to send a small number of migrant deportees to the European nation of Kosovo. Selected third country nationals may be relocated to Kosovo for up to one year. Then Pristina will support their safe return to their homeland. And we also know based on documents that the administration has approached countries like

Equatorial Guinea, Angola, Eswatini, Rwanda and others in Africa to also strike some of these agreements. These are countries in many cases where the US has tremendous leverage because they are developing countries that rely in many ways on US financial assistance and support. And so these are the countries that have the most to lose if the US were to retaliate for not striking these agreements and maybe are also the most to gain if they actually agree to accept these deportations from the US. One challenge that the administration has been facing from the jump is that you have got to hold people someplace before you deport them and there has not been capacity. What's the administration's plan to deal with that?

Ice right now, according to internal data that we obtained, is holding about 58,000 detainees. That is about 140% of its congressionally funded capacity. So they are way over capacity. And the agency, Noel, has been running out of space because ICE operations have been expanding and the agency is arresting more people than it can actually hold in detention before moving to deport them to their countries of origin or to a third country. The administration is doing multiple things to try to address this issue.

Obviously it is trying to move people out of the country as quickly as possible, but it is also turning to the Department of Defense and to military installations to try to convert them into processing facilities and temporary immigration detention centers. For example, they're looking at whether friendly states like Florida and Texas can aid that detention capacity level by offering facilities like Alligator Alcatraz. Welcome to Alligator Alcatraz. The entrance here is a 30-foot tall wall. None of this was here five days ago, and we saw at least 30 alligators on our way in.

We have a lot of bodyguards and a lot of cops that are in the form of alligators. You don't have to pay them so much. It might be as good as the real Alcatraz. You know, it could be. Well, that's a spooky one too, isn't it? That is the tent facility that Florida state officials set up about a week ago in the Everglades to hold people awaiting deportation, people transferred from ICE custody. But right now, Florida retains control over this facility, which again is in the middle of the Everglades and is by most objective measures sending rather a message that the administration and Florida

are going to take a very tough stance on this issue and that if you are in the country illegally or planning to potentially cross into the country illegally, now there is a non-zero chance that you could end up in a facility like Alligator Alcatraz in the middle of the Everglades. Does the Trump administration have plans to build more facilities along these lines? Yes, it does. And in fact, the big, beautiful bill that President Trump has recently signed into law is offering ICE $45 billion in additional funding to expand its detention network.

And the money will allow ICE, according to cost estimates, to expand that detention capacity to more than 100,000 detention beds. To do so, ICE will have to contract new facilities, but obviously there are many for-profit prison companies that are eager to help ICE in this effort because it is highly profitable to be housing immigration detainees right now during the second Trump administration. So we should expect the administration to move aggressively to set up new detention facilities and to expand capacity at existing ones too. The Trump administration has set very ambitious goals in terms of its aggressive immigration agenda.

Officials have set a goal of deporting close to 1 million people per year, which has never been done in US history. And right now ICE is not getting close to that number. And so what ICE is saying now is that the big, beautiful bill that has been signed into law will allow the agency to turbocharge its arrests and deportation efforts, but it's still to be determined whether they can actually meet

these very lofty and ambitious targets. Camilo Montoya Galvez, he covers immigration and border policy for CBS News. Up next, the push to get people to self-deport. Is it working? Whether you're a startup founder, navigating your first audit, or a seasoned security professional scaling your GRC program, proving your commitment to security has never been more critical or more complex. That's where Vanta comes in. Businesses use Vanta to build trust by automating compliance for in-demand frameworks like SOC2,

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watching baseball on the TV. I mean, you know, one minute I was watching Dodger's game and the next minute I looked up and there was Kristi Noem, the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security. An illegal alien from Guatemala charged with raping a child in Massachusetts. An MS-13 gang member from El Salvador accused of murdering a Texas man. She's thanking Trump for cracking down at the border. It starts showing images of alleged gang members that the administration has sent to this mega prison in El Salvador. These are just some of the heinous migrant criminals caught

because of President Donald J. Trump's leadership. It's like a very dark and kind of scary ad. If you are here illegally, you're next. You will be fined nearly $1,000 a day, imprisoned and deported. You will never return. But if you register using our CBP Home app and leave now, you could be allowed to return legally. And then suddenly it pivots to this pitch for CBP Home,

which is the administration's self-deportation app. And the message of the ad was basically, you know, you better self-deport using this app, or else, you know, we could throw you into some kind of, you know, gul self-deport using this app, or else, you know, we could throw you into some kind of, you know, gulag in El Salvador. Do what's right. Leave now. Under President Trump, America's laws, border, and families will be protected.

What is this app? It's been around for a while, right? The app originally started out primarily as a tool for trucking companies that wanted to schedule cargo inspections along the southern border. It was called CBP-1. And CBP-1 was essentially repurposed in 2023 by the Biden administration when the Biden administration was trying to get asylum seekers and migrants who were flooding across the border, trying to get them to schedule appointments.

If they're seeking asylum, they can use an app on their cell phone called CBP1ONE. CBP1ONE. That's to spell it out, not the number one. The Biden administration's attempt there was, basically, to get people to kind of hope that if they could schedule an appointment to kind of manage the flow of people a little bit better and get people to wait. And the Biden administration eventually brought in,

allowed about a million people to come across the border. And that was a big source of scorn from Republicans allowed about a million people to come across the border. And that was a big source of scorn from Republicans and from President Trump along the campaign trail. And so what we saw several months into the administration was a rebranding of CBP-1 as CBP Home. And that idea came from Trump advisor, Stephen Miller, and they have rolled out the app now

as a self-deportation app. So when you give an illegal immigrant a check for say $1,000 or $2,000, whatever it may be, $3,000 to leave the country, you're saving taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars. It also saves money relative to us having to go out and find that illegal alien and physically arrest them and deport them, which of course he will still do. Tell me about the idea behind self-deportation and how it's supposed to work. Well, the administration is inviting that person to go to this app, CBP Home, and enter personal information and a departure plan.

And then someone from the Department of Homeland Security is basically gonna contact that person and help them coordinate travel and confirm other details of the departure. The administration is willing to pay airfare and other related travel to people who volunteer to self-deport and is offering a thousand dollar what they call exit bonus Which you will receive upon arrival in your destination country

That doesn't have to be your home countries, but it can't be the United States in the first half of the show We talked about the Trump administration sending people to third-party, countries that they are not from. If a person chooses to self-deport, what are the punitive aspects of this that they might miss? Well, they will miss all of the punitive aspects, and that's a big part of the self-deportation pitch from the administration. They're saying, you know, if you voluntarily agree to do this process, you'll be protected from our ICE officers and agents and a much more unpleasant outcome that would involve being

kept in ICE detention and what everyone knows are pretty dire conditions right now. You know, I think what the administration is really banking on is that by making deportation by ICE seem as intimidating and as scary as possible, that they will get more and more people to opt to self-deport. How effective has this been? Well, in terms of overall numbers, I would say it's still pretty modest. 7,000 people have signed up so far through the app to self-deport and that they have confirmed more than 3,000 departures.

But the numbers do seem to be accelerating as the administration advertises the program more widely. But I think what they're really banking on is that the ICE mass deportation campaign will be scary enough that they'll get more and more people willing to do this. Nick, this is anecdotal, but I know that, for example, if you look on social media like TikTok, you will see people talking about their decision to self-deport to go home. Hi, my name is Q and I'm making this video to share my experience as I am beginning self-deportation. My name is Francisco and I recently self-deported from the US to live in Mexico with my husband. After being in this country for 36 years, my mom is leaving behind three grown ass kids

and three grandchildren. She decided to do this in her own terms. This was her finally meeting with my grandma after driving five hours from Mexico City to her town. A few thousand people doesn't sound like that much given how much chatter there is about it. Does, does this feel bigger than it actually is or do we actually not know a real number? I think at this stage, it feels bigger than the numbers indicate so far because of the

administration's promotion of CBP Home, the ads like the one that I described with Secretary Noem and some of the social media videos that you reference. But I do think that they are counting on this program to really expand, that they think a lot more people are gonna on this program to really expand, that they think a lot more people are going to take this route. So I think we can expect that a lot more people are going to end up wanting to take the self-deportation option. You have sources inside the administration, and I wonder, you know, one narrative is, look, this is just better.

This is more humane. It's more humane to make the decision on your own terms than to get sent to alligator Alcatraz, as much glee as there has been over that within the administration. When you talk to people, do they see it that way? Do they see it as, look, we're giving you a choice? It's just, it is better for you?

That's what they say. I mean, they view CBP Home as the more, you know, humane alternative to being arrested by ICE. You know, they think that also that by presenting people with this option and, you know, sweetening it by even offering, you know, to pay travel expenses and to provide a cash bonus, that they're giving people a really good choice. And so it almost kind of further criminalizes in their mind the decision to remain in the United States

without legal status. The administration is also saying that if you leave voluntarily through CBP Home, that you will have an opportunity to apply to return to the United States. But as advocates are pointing out, the administration has not specified how exactly that will work.

And so they're making it sound as if you'll go home and you'll just go to show up at the US embassy the next day and get an appointment to come back to United States legally and that is not the case. And so people who do take this option are potentially gonna be unable to return to the United States if ever, and there's no actual mechanism

that will give them kind of an advantage if they apply for a visa. The only thing is supposedly they'll count favorably toward their case, toward their application. Nick Miroff of The Atlantic. Gabrielle Burbae produced today's show. Miranda Kennedy edited. Laura Bullard is our senior researcher. Andrea Christensdorter and Patrick Boyd engineered.

The rest of our team includes Avishai Artsy, Hadi Mouag, D. Miles Bryan, Peter Baladon, Rosen, Devin Schwartz, Denise Guerra, Rebecca Ibarra, Amin El-Sadi, and Jolie Myers. Sean Ramosfirm is back from vacation next week. And not a moment too soon. Tomorrow we're off. You can look for a rerun of our show on plastic rain in your feeds. And coming up on Sunday, of course,

explain it to me, we'll explain it to you. JQ, what are you covering this week? Okay, so this week we're going to be talking about people and their relationships with AI. We got a ton of calls from listeners who use chatbots on a regular basis, and people use it in all kinds with AI. We got a ton of calls from listeners who use chat bots on a regular basis, and people use it in all kinds of ways, some for work, some for small tasks,

and some people even use it just to vent or talk. Did you get anyone who has like an AI boyfriend or girlfriend? No one with a romantic relationship, but we do have a caller who likes to have like deep philosophical conversations. Yes, yes. All right, I will be there.

Tune in on Sunday. Today Explained is distributed by WNYC and the show is a part of Vox. If you would like to support our journalism, you can do so by joining our membership program in this economy. Yeah, it's not that expensive. Go to Vox.com slash members to sign up if you're interested and thank you from all of us. Support for this show comes from Atio. Atio is an AI native CRM platform, which stands for customer relationship management, that

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