Today, Explained - Hip-hop is 50 and it's having a midlife crisis

Episode Date: September 30, 2023

So much of the coverage of hip-hop’s 50th birthday has been congratulatory, in spite of its record of misogyny and anti-LGBTQ sentiment. In this episode of Into It, host Sam Sanders talks to journalist Kiana Fitzgerald about how the women of hip-hop are leading the way today, and he catches up with hip-hop scholar Jason England, who argues hip-hop's midlife crisis has left an empty shell of what the genre once was. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit connectsontario.ca. Hey everyone. Today we have something different for you, but we think you're going to like it. It's an episode from our friends at Intuit, and it's about the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. So you know Intuit. It's the show that Sam Sanders hosts. And in this episode, Sam is taking a critical look at hip-hop. He's a big fan, but he's also going to look at how the politics of hip hop have drifted away from its radical origins and how the genre hasn't really reckoned with its history of both misogyny and homophobia. If you like what you hear in this episode, remember, you can always get more from Sam and his team at Vulture by following Into It in your favorite podcast app.

New episodes drop every Tuesday and Friday. Hey, you're listening to Into It from Vulture in New York Magazine. Intuit in your favorite podcast app. New episodes drop every Tuesday and Friday. Hey, you're listening to Intuit from Vulture in New York Magazine. I'm your host, Sam Sanders. And this episode, hip-hop at 50. So I am sure you know by now that hip-hop is officially 50 years old this year. And it seems everyone is celebrating. There was a big hip-hop tribute at the VMAs earlier this month.

We are Grandmaster Flash Interferious 5! The New York Times did this massive interactive package this year where they interviewed 50 iconic rappers. Run-DMC and Nas and Snoop Dogg, they had a hip-hop

anniversary concert at Yankee Stadium. And all of this celebration and coverage, it has been mostly incredibly positive. Fawning. Rose-colored glasses. Which has made me wonder, are they seeing what I'm seeing? Because to me, right now, hip-hop is in a bad place. I've talked about this on the show before. Hip-hop's not well. A lot of the biggest men in rap seem truly unhappy. I'm looking at you, Drake.

You got my mind in a terrible place truly unhappy. I'm looking at you, Drake. The genre has gotten really corporate, and rap and hip-hop is topping the charts a lot less than it was even five years ago. Hip-hop at 50 is maybe not doing as well as all this anniversary coverage would have you think. So this episode, we're going to hear from a couple of critics who love hip-hop enough to say, do better. Do better by women and queer people and confront hip-hop's misogyny and homophobia and maybe stop selling out.

We're going to talk with an academic this episode who argues that hip-hop has gotten too corporate and cushy in its middle age. And he argues that it's now in a showy, ostentatious, full-fledged midlife crisis. Stay with us. All that after the break. Our Not Too Nice Take on on hip-hop at 50. Support for Today Explained comes from Aura.

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one essay this year stopped me in my tracks. Jason England wrote it for Defector. Jason's an assistant professor at Carnegie Mellon University. And his Defector piece is called 50 Years Later, Is There Anything Left of Hip Hop? It's a doozy, and it has lines like this. Quote, hip hop has reached its midlife crisis. It took the corporate job, bought the Ferrari, left its family, and hit the dating apps. It found new crowds, and it's still going out to the clubs, but no one has a heart to tell it that just maybe it isn't the coolest motherfucker in the room anymore.

Wow. So, yeah. To start this chat, what do you mean when you write that hip hop is in a midlife crisis? I'm just obsessed with this imagery? I grew up in the middle of the golden age of it in New York City. And so having been there for almost, not all 50 years, but a lot of it, I've seen it mature and grow. And it's starting to remind me of people in my family and friends where it's like, you got older? I don't know that you matured. And I kind of want to evaluate this because I love you so I respect hip hop enough to critique it because to thoughtfully critique

something is actually a deep and sincere form of respect it means you take something seriously the puff pieces that feels like you just pat the kid on the head and saying hey good job yeah yeah I want you to give me an example of hip hop at midlife crisis.

Is there a song? Is there an artist that really gets at that idea for you right now in the consciousness, in the zeitgeist of hip hop? You know, you mentioned the vice president and Lil Wayne. So before we even began recording, Jason and I were commiserating over this really, really strange moment that happened earlier this month. Lil Wayne was rapping his song Mrs. Officer in front of the vice president's official residence for a hip-hop anniversary party. You have these sort of like absurdist,

as you said, boondocks moments that would have seemed impossible years ago. And it felt like another sign that hip-hop has maybe gone from revolutionary to peak establishment. And there's more. In the piece, I talk about watching the guy who wrote Black Cop and the sound of the police. You know, freestyle reverently for the New York

mayor who is a black cop. And we should say this is KRS-One, the rapper who was there at the start of hip hop, who was clearly not on the side of the police, now freestyle rapping for cop turned mayor Eric Adams. Let me tell you what it is. I'm off the top. This is what we call real hip hop off the block. I'm telling you right now, because back in the day, it was a mayor called Mayor Potts. And it didn't know his way. He helped us look, and he said, war on graffiti.

Had us running all up and down the whole city. But 20 years later, guess who popped up? Real hip-hop. And you know what's up. Yeah, KRS-One calling Eric Adams real hip-hop. So Jason and I kept talking about all these rappers and signifiers that seemed to indicate that hip-hop is truly in a midlife crisis. Lost its edge. Got a little soft.

You can see it everywhere once you start looking. Ice-T, who once sang a song called Cop Killer, he has played a cop in the Law & Order cinematic universe for two decades now. ...for violating the Voluntary Servitude and Painter Jack, in case you haven't heard Lincoln free the slaves. But maybe the biggest example of hip-hop at a midlife crisis right now is Jay-Z, arguably the most successful rapper alive. Jay-Z is incredibly talented, but Jay-Z is the person who ushered in this idea.

I'm not a rapper. I'm a hustler who happens to know how to rap, right? I sold kilos of coke, so I'm guessing I could sell CDs. I'm not a businessman, I'm a businessman. I will tell you what I think most signifies hip-hop at midlife crisis. Everything Jay-Z has been doing for the last five to seven years. Everything. And I want to get specific here. There was one of the more recent albums of his.

And let me tell you, they all kind of got bad after the Black album. But there was one or two albums where it wasn't even just luxury rap. It was like conspicuous consumption rap. And there was one album, I want to say, was it 444? Where he spends a lot of time in one song talking about like art collection as investment. And I'm like, are you this is this this is the same guy who was running drugs in the projects. Yeah. Like, he's an art collector now.

And it's like, fine, get your art. But it was vaguely Cosby-esque, pull up your pants energy. And I was like, oh, we're down bad. If this is the most successful rapper and hip-hop businessman of all time and he's talking about this that's midlife crisis for hip-hop that right there well he he definitely seems to be in one and jay-z's been so successful it's hard to critique him on some levels you can't say that he's going wrong um but as an artist have you listened to 444 unfortunately i listen to everything. I think he went wrong.

There is nothing that I don't listen to. I will listen to everything so I can have a part in this conversation. But I don't listen to it with a great deal of joy. And all of his later albums have kind of blended together. I think I call them sort of these rich dad, poor dad, Robert Kiyosaki albums. Wow. He is giving these, he gives terrible financial advice. I could have bought a place in Dumbo before it was Dumbo for like two million. That same building today has worth 25 million. Guess how I'm feeling?

Dumbo. Right, he's like, Kiyosaki's whole thing was, hey, I've got a thousand pieces of financial advice, but really I'm making money off this book that tells you how to get rich. You know, it's like, this is not for me, man. This feels like a cult of personality. Ice Cube for me is the graziest one. Hip hop always leaned anti-establishment.

It's always had screwy politics. But they said Eazy-E had lunch with George Bush Sr. That is true, and that did happen. You might not have guessed that Eazy-E, Eric Wright is his real name, would be among this group of well-off Republicans who paid $1,250 to become members of something called the Republican Inner Circle, who were waiting in line today to hear law and order man George Bush at a private members only reception. What's crazy, though, in terms of hip hop in this midlife crisis is the man who said I'll never have dinner with the president. I'll never have dinner with the president. And when I see your ass again, I'll be hesitant. That man is now running around with Steve Bannon

and Tucker Carlson. And that is completely insane. So why would you be doing this of all interviews? I mean, you could do an interview with anyone. You're doing an interview with me. Obviously, you're going to take abuse for doing that. Like, why would you do that? Because I think it's silly not to talk to people. You know, that is shocking.

Yeah. So Jason and I did this for a while going through examples of hip-hop artists showing the genre in a midlife crisis but eventually I pushed back like what's wrong with these rappers making money and getting reliable high-paying jobs what is wrong with them being cool with politicians what is wrong with them building business empires? Isn't that how it always works? When any genre goes from the margins to the mainstream. We've talked about how hip hop has become so mainstream, how it's become so driven by hyper capitalism and conspicuous consumption. But could there have been any way that hip hop went mainstream in a different manner and a manner that pleased you more?

And what would that path have been? No. And I think writing this piece was becoming the grips with that. Really? I think in an American society, and, you know, I think I use the term from Public Enemy, the anti-nigger machine. What do Black people create that they can own as a collective in a society where our numbers are fairly small and then relative to the dominant group, our actual resources are even less significant? It's inevitable in a white capitalistic society that this is going to happen.

I really do believe that. So I wasn't saying, hey, I blame you people. I blame us. We were going to lose control the same way the jazz artists did. The jazz artists didn't want to lose jazz. Now, could it have gone a different way in terms of people preserving the culture and not leaning, not following the lead of some of the worst bad faith actors, you'd have to ask them. I don't want to speak for the people who are my heroes, and I don't want to be naive. I don't know what decisions they had to make. I don't know what bills would do. How much of the essay and how much of this conversation is you being critical

of hip hop and rightfully so? And how much of it is is you being critical of hip hop and rightfully so? And how much of it is actually you being critical of capitalism? Much of it is me being critical of capitalism. But I think mostly what I'm critical of is our lack of interest in having real conversations. That frustrates me. Right? It's hip hop at 50. Like you.

Let's argue about it. I expected more pieces that really del me right it's hip-hop at 50 like you let's argue about it i expected more pieces that really delved into it one because who doesn't like those conversations baby i love them yes that's those are the best ones um and and this is a culture at its root if we're being honest it's amazing how few people know it's a battle culture i remember in my youth all the rappers were literally fighting in their songs like this is kind of the point of the genre you can do that it's when we stop criticizing each other it's when we stop taking things seriously and saying it's okay if this person is making a bag of money that justifies it that's when the culture starts to slip away. Last question for you. Not really a question, just a kind of comment. I think back to when hip hop was like maybe better than it was now,

in less of a midlife crisis than it was now. When I think back of the quote unquote golden era of hip hop decades ago, I still kind of don't see it as that golden. And I look at it kind of as an outsider because I'm a black man and some of it relates to me inherently because of that, but I'm also gay and the genre has always kept me at arm's length because of that when it wasn't like throwing slurs at me in the songs. And I think like for me, it makes me look at hip hop at 50 and this kind of weird middle-aged, midlife crisis rock genre being open to that blindspot because they had the biggest blindspot around gender and sexuality forever, like from the start. So, yeah, I'm like disappointed for hip hop, but not surprised by it. Dream Hampton made that case.

How can we say hip hop was ever progressive if it was always so deeply homophobic and misogynist? How? Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's 100% true. I think people have a big problem discussing that. I don't think it's changed all that much. Again, I think that we have hip hop has always had a radical posture. Right.

That doesn't mean it was radical in action. At times it was. But you cannot deny just how hateful, bigoted, and homophobic, and misogynist the music has always been. And in that way, it is, again, deeply American. Thanks again to Jason England. Coming up, there are more women in hip-hop than there were 50 years ago. But is hip-hop today actually better to women? Hip-hop needs to be seen as something that is, you know, as beautiful and as creative and as

innovative as it is. It is still something that still has its flaws. And the major flaws have to do with women and queer folks. That's Kiana Fitzgerald. She's a hip hop scholar and journalist, and she recently published a book all about hip hop at 50. So as our previous guest mentioned at the end of that last chat, most of the 50th anniversary coverage of hip hop has failed to acknowledge perhaps hip hop's original sin.

It's rampant misogyny and homophobia. It was there from the start, and it seems like it's still with us. I wanted to talk about that and see if any progress has been made. Because I see artists like Cardi and Megan and Doja Cat making waves in hip-hop. But even still, it doesn't feel like enough. Have there been any parts of this anniversary celebration of hip-hop so far that have really just felt the most i don't know problematic to you like i keep thinking of these instances of like middle-aged male rappers hanging out with

law enforcement or like former law enforcement like you, you know, you got KRS-One freestyle rapping for Mayor Eric Adams, a former New York police officer. You got Lil Wayne singing Mrs. Officer in front of Kamala Harris, who during her time as AG in California was known as California's cop in chief. It feels weird. Were there any moments for you that you were like oh my god this is not right oh man well those are two great examples of me being like wtf like what is yeah what is actually happening in my face it's especially for you know a genre that is so you know like nwa f the police like you know this is something that we are very very aware has been deeply involved in hip-hop since its beginning, is this aversion to police and being avoidant of them and being critical of them. So it's like, these decades later, what is that about? What are we really doing? I remember watching the Grammys and perusing social media, as one does during those events.

And Dr. Dre was presented with the Global Impact Award. Everybody in here probably knows this already, but this is the 50th anniversary of hip hop. Make some noise for hip hop. And it was like, oh, so we're really celebrating outright an abuser who has admitted to his abuse. And that's just kind of one example of an artist who has been championed year after year, decade after decade for really making these huge impacts

on hip hop and not really tipping the scales in order to say, well, this is what he's accomplished, but this is also what harm he's done. And that conversation happens here and there in certain pockets of the internet, but it doesn't really happen on the stages and it doesn't happen in the performances. It doesn't happen in the places where more people will see it and hear it. It's more critical pieces that don't get the attention that an award show or something like that would have. Yeah. Well, and when you think about all these now middle-aged legends of hip-hop who are being honored in 2023, all the early stuff was really mean to women and gay people, and they never had to apologize for it. You know, Tribe Called Quest had a song about date rape. That's when you start to diss her. If she's with the program that was kind of slut-shamey.

You know, Jay-Z, Biggie, Tupac, they all had lyrics that were demeaning to women. And over time, everyone just forgot about it. You know, there was never an answering for that. They just kind of stopped doing it. Yes, exactly. When you say Jay-Z, I think of Girls, Girls, Girls. I think of Big Pimpin', which is one of my favorite songs because UGK is on it. And I love UGK.

But, you know, Jay-Z pretends like those songs don't exist anymore. And it's like, well, we remember, you know, the videos are out there. It's still on streaming. Like, it has not gone away. But I think as these artists mature, they kind of come to terms with some of their material. And they're like, ooh, that wasn't a good look. Maybe I should just pretend like it doesn't exist. And that's not how the world works. That's not how the internet works.

And people have very long memories. So I think in their efforts and their attempts to kind of reconstruct their own histories, they're doing more harm than good because at the end of the day, we know what we heard. We know what we saw. So it's like, just because these events have gone by and they're 10, 20, 30 years old now, it doesn't mean that they never happened. I want to talk about this kind of weird dichotomy of women and hip-hop. Hip-hop has generally been mean to women, but women have also always been there for hip-hop. You know, even the first party that was believed to be the start of hip-hop and hip-hop DJing,

this DJ Kool Herc party, it was his sister Cindy's party. The party where hip hop started, a woman threw the party, right? Like how symbolic is that? Knowing that and knowing that history, if you had to sum up hip hop's relationship to women in 30 seconds or less, what would you say? Hip hop has been very unkind, to say the least, to women. It has, from the very beginning, tried to ostracize them, tried to make them feel like they didn't belong, tried to make them feel like if they were involved, that they should be lucky to be there. And not only that, the women who were included were told that they had to look a certain way, that they had to dress a certain way. There were so many parameters that were involved in the policing of women in hip hop that are still existent today. And I think that's why we've seen this explosion of hip hop artists currently who are women and

who are really just not able to take the microphone and say, hey, I'm here and I'm going to tell you about my experiences and the way that I've lived it. I think all of these elements that have kind of been thrown together in this great melting pot of hip hop, it's an exciting adventure for women contemporarily because of all the walls and the barriers that have been broken. But at the same time, they're standing on the shoulders and on the, you know, the halos of some women who will never get the credit and the acclaim that they deserve. Yeah. And I mean, you know, when I asked this question about how hip hop treats women,

it's also a question about how hip hop treats queer people, which is maybe even worse. You know, I remember it wasn't until I was in high school, and I'm 39 now, it wasn't until I was in high school when rap kind of decided to stop saying the word faggot. Yeah. Like that was a big deal. And even then it kind of stopped, but you still don't see queer rappers prominently in the industry. No, we don't. And I'm so glad you brought that up.

As I was doing research for the book, I heard so many F-words, so many F-words. And I was like, wow, I did not. I knew that it was prevalent, but I didn't know that it was that. Everyone was doing it. Everyone, everyone. Literally, the people that we respect to this day were doing it. It's mind-blowing how cavalier people were about it, how it was just like something that rolled off the tongue very easily. And I was just like, wow, this is frightening to hear.

So I'm glad that we're in a place where it's not as weaponized, but it still is very much present. But yeah, I feel like today we don't have nearly the amount of queer artists in representation that we could have. We do have the people who are very visible, like Alilnaz X. And then we have other folks like Kegs Tequila. We have Ra Ra Gabor, who I love, who identifies as gender fluid from New Jersey. There are so many artists who are creating at every level of the genre, but they're not given the resources. They're not given the attention, the developmental attention that they need to become the artists that they could be. They're really just having

to go out here and just get it how they live by themselves. And that does not always equate to art that is appreciated on a global level. So I can only hope that in the next 50 years, not to sound cliche, but I hope that as we move forward, that it will become much more inclusive, that it will become much more diverse in every single way that is utterly possible. Because hip hop is all about giving voice to the voiceless which you know as journalists we know that phrase very well but for people outside of our profession that's what hip hop has become it's become this very very instrumental tool to help people to turn their lives and their experiences into something bigger something relatable something that anybody could listen to and say i feel that that I've been through that. So that doesn't just come down to straight men. That's not how the world works.

So I can only hope that moving forward, we will see much more inclusivity. I want to talk about some of the rules that have existed for women in hip hop and if they're changing, especially in this moment where we have so many women rappers kind of dominating. But it seems like when women have been allowed to be a part of hip hop and rap, there's been a certain script they've had to follow. They have to be co-signed by some male rapper or some male-led crew. And then they could be the only woman in that crew. And then they'd have to fight rumors that they slept with the only woman in that crew and then they'd have to fight rumors that they slept with the crew to make it their entire career i never

wayne i never drank all my life man sick and if they were good lyricists the thinking would always be that some man was writing their lyrics for them and on top of all of that, they had to be hot, dress sexy, and dance. It was kind of wild. Like every woman in hip hop had to do all of those things and still wouldn't be respected by the men of hip hop. How much of that is still the case? Has it gotten better or worse? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I will say that it is unbelievable the standards that women are held to when compared to their male contemporaries. Gosh, even just working in hip hop media for as long as I have, I've been in offices where we've brought in artists of all kinds. And the men come in and they look how they know, they look how they look and they talk how they talk. And it's like, all right, you're just here to be here. And then the women come in

and they're pristine, they're dressed, they're wearing heels, their makeup is on point, they're talking like they've been through a media machine. Like it's so different. It's so markedly different the way that they have to present themselves. So to your point about the history of women having to be attached to a man or a male crew and then having to jump through all these hoops additionally, that I just thought about Lil' Kim. I thought about Nicki Minaj, two of the most championed women artists in hip hop. I thought about them and I thought about

what must they have gone through that we don't even know. We just see the surface of it. We just see the surface of it. We just see the optics of it. And we're like, ooh, that must have been very hard to deal with. But there's probably so much more that they've never talked about. On top of that, I would say in current times, I feel like it's very exciting for me personally, just to kind of observe the way that women are coming into the fold. You know, we have Scarlett, who is getting co-signed by male artists, but not

necessarily connected to a male crew. Fly on a Boss. Who are just running around and having a great time working with missy elliott already so we have these these new um crops of characters who are coming up and they're not having to necessarily be attached to these these old antiquated tropes and these old ways of thinking and living and moving throughout the industry so i think right now is probably the most excited I've been in a very long time when it comes to new artists. And we don't even have

to say new women artists or new female artists, just new artists. I'm just super excited to see these women picking up the baton and running with it literally yeah you know i look at hip-hop now and i see two big trends all the men are like in a bad mood travis scott's in a bad mood drake's in a bad mood the dude's in a bad mood and the women are having fun cardi's having fun megan's having fun nick is having fun doja's having fun um and they are topping the charts. You know, their songs are getting all the radio play. And Parton wants to say, oh, this means the women have won. But I'm not sure. Because when I look at what these women have to do, it's still so much more than the men.

Cardi B has to be a stand-up comedian on top of just rapping. Yeah. Megan Thee Stallion has to be the stand-up comedian on top of just rapping. Yeah. Megan Thee Stallion has to be the most beautiful woman in the world. Doja Cat sings and dances and raps and is a weird girl and is an art girl. Yes. And the boys just get to sit there and mumble. Oh, my gosh. And so in that reality, should I say, look, the women won or should I say, damn, it's still not fair for the women? Oh, my God.

I'm just like, you just kind of blew my mind because I'm like, on the one hand, yes, the women are winning and it's so much fun. I'm having the time of my life. But it's also like, at what cost? Like, as you said, they're having to do so much and carry so many burdens. And maybe not even necessarily traditional burdens, but burdens nonetheless of having to, you know, outperform, outlook, outrap, out this, that, and the third. Like, women have always had to do. So I'm glad that you brought up that dichotomy of, you know, they're winning, but why are they winning? Like, is it because they have to go above and beyond and, you know, surpass everything that a man has ever done in this industry. And I feel like if women artists really did sit back and think about all that they do, they'd be like, man, why did I have to do this?

Like they would. It's one of those things where it's like you go mad if you think too much about this specific topic. And yeah, and we we know that very well. So, yeah, it's it also reminds me of the saying within the black community, you know, you have to be twice as good to get half as much. That's even more the case for women rappers, especially Black women rappers. Yeah, yeah. You know, in a recent profile in The Atlantic, one of hip-hop's biggest critics, Dream Hampton, she was talking about all these prominent women in rap and hip-hop right now. And she's like, I'm not sure if all of it's great.

She talked about Cardi B and she said, actually, Cardi B is incredibly conventional. I don't cook, I don't clean, but let me tell you, I got this ring. Like Cardi B is performing womanhood in service of a man, her lover, her husband. And like a lot of what the most prominent women in hip hop have to do is perform their womanhood and perform their fun for the male gaze. How true is that? Or are these actually women who are doing it for themselves and for other women? I feel like women have always had to do what they have to do in order to make it. And if that means, you know, like a Trina working with a trick daddy. And having to deal with all of his antics.

I think about them and I think about all the things that they've had to go through in order to get a voice and to be someone who can speak to the masses and change lives. When I think about all that, it just feels like a weight. It feels like a weight on me to think about it. And if I'm feeling that way, I know it has to be a weight on them. So for these artists to create music that speaks to their personal lifestyles, if Cardi B is in love and head over heels for her husband, then that's her way of life. If she truly feels that

way. If it's all performative, then that's another story. But if that's how she feels, and that's how she wants to relay her lifestyle, then who are me to judge? I am just one person. But I do understand where Dream Hampton is coming from. I do understand her very, very wealthy investment into hip hop and all the work that she has done. But at the same time, I do acknowledge that when I hear Megan talking about shaking ass and twerking and having fun with her body, when I spoke to Megan the first time, she told me that she doesn't want to rap about popping pills and killing people because that's not what she does. So why can't she rap about what she likes to do? What she likes to do. Yeah.

So when I hear conversations like that, that's what I think about. I think about the lifestyles that these women are living and their freedom to to explain and to convey it in the way that they feel is accurate to them. Yeah. You know, on the one hand, hip hop seems to be a better place for women now because you have artists like Cardi and Megan and Doja succeeding. But the most prominent men in rap, they haven't been as supportive of women as you think they would be in 2023. When I think about Drake, probably the biggest male rapper of our current moment, it seems like every few months he says something that's kind of patently offensive to women. Whether it's about Serena women whether it's about serena whether it's about megan he's not someone who seems to be feminist in his lyrics um and then when i think about what megan went through even getting shot by another male rapper tori lanes even as women ascend in hip-, the men aren't supporting them.

Am I right to think that? And if so, what's up with that? Why? How? You're right. And it's very simple. They're haters. They cannot get over the fact that these women are having so much success, that they are ascending on their own, that they are touching lives in ways that they could only imagine.

These men are, to put it very frankly, they're boring compared to the women. And I'm not afraid to say it because it's a fact, in my opinion. It's very, very true. So I think men are looking at these up-and-coming women artists or these more established women artists and they're seeing that they're connecting with their fans in the way that these men could never dream of and they're like well how do i get that i know i'll tear them down and it's like no no that's that's not how that works you just look like the supreme hater that you are and it's like it's a certain kind of person who doesn't see that.

And I'll leave it at that because it's just the misogynoir of it all. It's just clear as day that these artists, these male artists don't have a fiber of anything that is even equivalent to respect for women. And that's, that's heard in their lyrics clearly. And it's heard in the way that they present women in their music videos and their little documentaries and stuff like that. It's very clear that they don't, they don't have an iota of respect for women and,

you know, hearing them and seeing them do these kinds of tangential things when it comes to like, you know, writing lyrics about how women ain't this, that, or the third, and then seeing how they operate in spaces with women or how they speak about women when they're at their concerts. Like Drake just, you know, had a moment, I think recently where he was like, oh, shout out to Meg. Oh, not that Meg, this Meg. And he's talking about somebody else. Shout out to Meg one time, for real. Not that Meg, this Meg. And he's talking about somebody else. Shout out to Meg one time, really. Yeah! Not that Meg, this Meg.

And it's like, was that even necessary? Come on, dude. Yeah, why are you taking cheap shots as someone who is literally in the process of healing? So, yeah, it's all very frustrating. Yeah. You know, what does it say about hip hop and whether it's going to move forward when it comes to how it treats women that Drake is still the biggest rapper in the country, in the world, in spite of historically and systemically being mean to women?

He's never stopped being kind of an asshole to women. And yet, tour still sold out, still got number one albums. People still love him. What does that say about hip hop's fandom? That Drake still gets to be a misogynist and win. I think it says that we're in a stagnant place. As much advancements and as much, you know, as much as we've moved ahead of certain, you know, things that have held us back. In hip hop, I do think that we're still very, very stuck in our ways. And, you know, I mean that in a, in a couple of different ways. Um, for one, Drake has been top man in the industry since at least 2009 and other people have come and gone, but he's always kind of been in the top one to three. So I think it a matter of drake just being the the option that's always been in

front of us and the person that has had success so we're like oh well he must be doing something right we'll just keep you know we'll keep supporting him and it's like well that's boring and then on the other hand i don't know i feel like it says quite a bit that people are not willing to really interrogate why they support Drake, why they support his music. I want us to really look at why we are saying that and why we feel that it's okay for him to be as big and as successful as he is, even though he is someone who is very blatantly been an asshole to women or been an asshole to queer people. Like, I love Makonnen, who deserves so much more. You know, we have all these examples littered behind Drake as he traipses forward into this, you know, this oblivion that we have no acknowledgement of.

But yeah, it's just very, it's a conundrum. It really is. of a Nas album and a Jay-Z album at the same time. She reviewed It Was Written and Reasonable Doubt together. And in 96, she said of the state of hip hop that it was philosophically stuck on, quote, hyper-capitalism, numbness, and cartoonist misogyny. And when I think of the most prominent male rappers of our day in 2023, they are still doing the same thing, even though we now have Cardi and Megan and women in the fold. Knowing that, looking back on that, are you hopeful about the next 50 years of hip hop?

Because it feels like even though the women have risen to prominence, the men are still, let me say this nicely, shitheads. I mean, just you pointing that out, that Dream Hampton double review from 96 and her kind of illustration of what she heard, that I can think of 25 artists off the top of my head who are doing exactly that right now. It's very much still present. And I would hope, and that's all I can do is hope and pray and wish that things will start to kind of turn a curve and start to evolve into this new thing, this new way of creating and bringing life to experiences that anybody can relate to. I don't know how quickly that's going to happen. You know, just from 1996 to 2023 and seeing the very stark similarities between what she saw then and what I'm seeing now, it's very sobering to hear something like that and to realize that we have not come as far as we think we have.

Yeah, yeah. You know what I want? What's that? What will allow me to actually finally forgive hip hop for being so mean to women and queer people. I want all of the big pioneers of hip hop to like re-record their shitty verses. Like there's so many Jay-Z verses that I love,

but are just full of bitch, hoe and faggot. Like pull a Taylor Swift, re-record it, make it nice. I'll love you forever. Yeah, that's not so much to ask. I would love that. That would be incredible. I'll love you forever. Yeah. That's what I want. That's not so much to ask. I would love that. That would be incredible. I think that anything like that where it's just like a reevaluation or, you know, just like a reconsideration of what has happened in the past. And just acknowledging that like, oh, that wasn't cool.

And a lot of people probably still love this. Maybe I should do something about it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I also hope that we just get fewer Drakes and more Dojas. Yeah. That's really what I want. I would love that. More Dojas,

please. More Dojas. Thanks again to Kiana Fitzgerald, who happens to also be from my hometown, Seguin, Texas. Go Matadors! Kiana wrote a book called Ode to Hip Hop. 50 albums that define 50 years of trailblazing

music. Alright, Intuit is hosted by me, Sam Sanders. The show is produced by Janae West, Travis Larchuk, Gabi Grossman, Jelani Carter, and Taka Zen. Our fearless editor is Jordana Hochman, and we had editing help this episode from Jolie Myers.

Our engineer is Daniel Turek. Our music is composed by Breakmaster Cylinder. And the executive producer of audio at Vox Media is Nishat Kerwa. Listeners, we are back on Thursday with a brand new episode. Until then, go listen to Doja Cat. Y'all know I love her. Okay, bye.