Today, Explained - Hollywood’s IP industrial complex

Episode Date: August 20, 2022

Noel and Sean join Sam Sanders to kick off the third episode of his new Vulture show, “Into It.” Sam then speaks to TV titan Damon Lindelof about Hollywood’s difficulty with letting stories die. Listen to more episodes of "Into It" at https://link.chtbl.com/intoittex  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Sean. It's Saturday. Before I started my weekend, I wanted to let you know that we have something special for you today. It's Intuit, a Vulture podcast with Sam Sanders. If you don't know Vulture, it is the authoritative place to go online to find out about what was happening in popular culture years ago. They're great on nostalgia. And now they have a companion podcast hosted by the one and only Sam Sanders. Noelle and I actually helped Sam kick off this episode. So you're going to hear from us. But then you're going to hear a really interesting conversation that, quite frankly, I don't think you're going to hear anywhere else about how exactly Hollywood works, especially when it comes to intellectual property and milking intellectual property to death. I found it fascinating. I hope you enjoy it too. If you do, subscribe to Intuit

wherever you listen. I do want to say I got dressed up for y'all today. I wore my new favorite shirt. It's my Katy Perry California Girl shirt. I went to see her in Vegas this weekend. Stunning. Stunning. Her show. Her show was a Quaalude fever dream.

Hey. Hey, I'm Sam Sanders, and you are listening to Into It from Vulture and New York Magazine. And one day, we will get Katy Perry on this show. I have the t-shirt. I went to the concert. It was a good seat. It's going to happen. But until that time comes, who's favored to win?

Definitely. Noelle. Sean. I have Sean Ramos-Verm and Noelle King. Sean knows I've been studying for the game. You've been studying. Of course. You know Noelle is a study.

Noelle has valedictorian vibes. Valedictorian vibes. And we love it. She really does. Before we start the exam, can I have you both write your full names on the Scantron?

Tell our listeners who you are. Sean Ramosverum, one of two hosts of Today Explained. Noelle King, the second of two hosts of Today Explained.

I don't do second or first. Y'all are both co-lead singers in the band. That's right. We're the hollow notes of Daily News podcasting. Or who was the other one?

Ashford and Simpson? Solid. Solid. That's them. And that's y'all. Solid as a rock. As a rock. I said it.

I feel like both of you have played games about the news with me before, but this is a new game and it's different. I'm going to tell you real quickly what it is. It's a game that we're calling here on Into It. Into It, not Into It. I mentioned a recent headline, and the two of you tell me whether you're into it or you're not into it.

And at the end of this game, I will award points and choose a winner based on how much I like your opinion. You got this, Sean. Thank you. I'm rooting for Noelle. With that, let's get into it. Are either of you into a new Selena album, which features 10 never before vocal tracks from Selena that have been digitally altered to make her sound older. Not into it. Not into it. Is that mean? It's not mean. Sean, what about you?

I mean, hard pass. Is anyone out there even clamoring for this? Who's this for? Who's the intended audience? Can't we just let Selena be? I am a South Texan who is a big Selena fan. And one of my favorite films of all time is a Selena biopic starring J-Lo. And even I don't want new digitally altered Selena vocals. Let her rest. So apparently the backstory, and this is all approved by Selena's estate and her family and her widow. Their estate is going to release tracks with some vocals that she recorded when she was between the ages of 13 and 16. But they want to make her voice sound, quote, a little bit more mature.

So they're going to digitally lower her vocals to make it sound like she wasn't 13 when she sang these songs. It's giving Tupac hologram vibes, and I didn't like that either. You know, the Tupac hologram, I feel like of all the iterations of let's resuscitate someone who's been dead for years, the Tupac hologram seems a little more respectful than something like this, where you're just trying to recreate something that sort of wasn't there. Which artist would you allow to be resurrected? Is Willie Nelson dead yet?

Joking. Oh, no, he's on tour. He's on tour. I know, I know. I think you were the one who told me that. That was a joke. That was a joke. Oh, my God.

Next question. It's a three-parter. First part of this question. Are we into or not into Shaggy? Shaggy? The singer. It wasn't me, Shaggy. Shaggy?

What did Shaggy do? What did he do? First answer the question. Are you or are you not into Shaggy as an idea? Isn't Shaggy a veteran? I think I'm pro-Shaggy. I'm pro-Shaggy if he hasn't done anything terrible.

If you're about to update me with something hideous, I'm about to update you. Wait for it. Second question. Are we into Sting, the singer? He had his time.

He has his talent. Wow. Desert Rose was a bop. I'm into what Sting was a bop. I'm into what Sting did for Tantric Sex. I still don't quite know what Tantric Sex is, but I know Sting did a lot for it.

Oh, wait. Did Shaggy... Wait a second. I think I know from a Tiny Desk concert that Shaggy and Sting did a thing together. Well, here's the thing. After that first Tiny Desk concert, there's been more Sting and Shaggy content.

And quiet as it's kept, just this May, this duo released a new album. And it is a Sting-produced reggae album of Shaggy singing covers

of jazz standards like Come Fly With Me and Luck Be A Lady. I am so into this. So Shaggy and Sting began to collaborate after they were on tour together years ago. But a while back, Sting told Shaggy, Hey, I kind of feel like you have the same vocal range as Frank Sinatra.

Shaggy's like, nah, dog. And Sting was like, yes, you do. And it took a few drinks to convince Shaggy that this album of Shaggy reggae jazz standard covers could work. But it's here now. Wow. And it's Shaggy doing Sinatra. Wow. I just, yeah. I was hanging on every word.

You guys are musical. You know I'm not. Does Shaggy have the same vocal range as Sinatra. Wow. I just, yeah. I was hanging on every word. You guys are musical. You know I'm not. Does Shaggy have the same vocal range as Sinatra? I mean, there's a difference between vocal range and vocal talent. I hate to say it. I don't think it works. And when I see the two of them together, they love each other. They have fun together.

What I want for them is like a buddy comedy movie more than I want an album from them. Right? I would definitely go see that. But it sounds like somebody should call the police. Oh. Well, it won't be me. All right. The game is tied.

This last question for all the marbles. Here we go. Are y'all into or not into HBO Max taking TV shows and movies off its platform without telling viewers like you and me? Okay. I know. I have to think about this one because HBO Max is the only one of the things that I actually pay for. So I'm going to take a moment here to ponder this. Okay.

I will tell you all the list of things that have been taken down so far. All right. Amy. Amsterdam. An American pickle. Charm City Kings. Check It Out, as in Czech Republic. Final Space.

Full Bloom. Here and Now. Locked Down, starring Anne Hathaway, Moonshot, Mrs. Fletcher, Vinyl, and The Witches remake, also starring Anne Hathaway. No, I'm good with what HBO did. I think I'm okay. So you hate Anne Hathaway. Wow. She is gorgeous and talented. Great gowns, beautiful gowns.

Check. What is the—I would watch the check thing, I think, but nothing else on there. They're not removing Game of Thrones. There you go. No. Exactly. Yeah, it sounds like they're removing things that you didn't realize or remember existed to begin with. Yes. So then, Noelle, you're okay with this.

Sean, what about you? I'm okay with this. Yeah. Well, I will say this. I will say this. The trailer for American Pickle looked really good. Of all of those movies you named, that is the only movie I set aside

time to watch, and it was disappointing, and all the good parts were in the trailer, as so often happens. So I will say good riddance to all these things. I'm into HBO Max taking garbage off the platform. I will say my favorite version of HBO Max is

every few months, a new series featuring a prestige actress over 45 doing bad things. That's my favorite category. On that note, I've got to determine a winner of this game.

Good luck. And it shall be determined by a tiebreaker. Oh, wow. Damn. And the tiebreaker is which of you will have the best review of this shaggy jazz classic. I'm going to play it for you now. Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away. I would resurrect Frank Sinatra, changing my original answer just to see his face.

Yes, yes. Sean, can you beat that? I don't think you can beat that either. I would just ditto. So I capitulate. Noelle, you win. Sorry. It's up to you, Sam.

It's up to you. Do whatever you want. Noelle wins. We are Ashford and Simpson. We both win. Solid as a rock. Solid as a rock. Oh, I love it. I love it.

Noelle, you won. But emotionally and spiritually, we all did. Thank you both for being here. I love it. This was delightful. Thank you, Sam. Thank you. Dear listeners, you can catch Noelle and Sean five times a week with their daily news podcast called Today Explained.

And as a special treat, you can probably also hear it on a public radio station near you. It's good. Go check it out. I'm going to try my shaggy right now. Come fly me. I can't do it right. I can't. Never mind. So after Stranger Things finishes its fifth season, which maybe doesn't even need to exist, there's also going to be a Stranger Things stage play. And there's going to be a Stranger Things spinoff series as

well. And you know what? I am irrationally annoyed by this because I think it represents a not so good trend in TV and movies. The biggest hits and names and brands, there's this increasing pressure to keep those things going no matter what. Avengers! You know, everything Marvel. Game of Thrones, which is getting a prequel. The Lord of the Rings, they're making more of that. Star Wars, which truly never ends. It feels like that kind of stuff is sucking all the money and energy and attention out of the room to the detriment of newer and smaller ideas.

I want to talk about this with someone who I thought would also be mad about this. So I called up Damon Lindelof. You know Damon as one of the guys behind Lost. He also did The Leftovers and that amazing single season of Watchmen on HBO. And Damon has a rep for knowing when and how to end things and how to fight against that urge

to let some things go on too long. I mean, he didn't just do one season of Watchmen. He also cut that show down to nine episodes from 10 while filming the show. But I was surprised. In our chat, Damon was not nearly as pessimistic as I am about this extension of big TV and movie mega brands. In fact, Damon kind of cheered me up. So here's our chat about making art

in a media world full of Goliaths and maybe too few Davids. I have brought you here for a very particular kind of conversation. I want to talk with you about how to say no in Hollywood because it seems that whenever something works on screen, there is more pressure than ever before to keep it going or bring it back from the dead or revive

it or make a sequel or a prequel or do a spinoff or make a new multiverse to make the world even bigger. Do you think it's harder than ever when a TV idea or a film idea works to say no to just keeping it going forever? Harder than ever, it's always going to be hard because once you've got someone's attention, you want to keep it. And so the idea of letting it go and not knowing if you're ever going to get it back again is sort of like it's antithetical to the way that we're wired. From a slightly sort of more cynical industrial standpoint, this is a business, right? It's an industry. And so if you make a couple of great Marvel movies, the instinct is like, we need to make more Marvel movies and we need to sort of expand this. And I have this sort of like interior feeling of like, wow, I wish they

made less because they would make each one that came out a little bit more special. But I watch all of them, Sam. You're better than me. You're better than me. People don't want things to end. I do. But in general, the audience wants them to perpetuate. I wonder how you feel about all of that as someone who is able to say no and stop the thing. And I wonder if, like, can we talk about perhaps your most famous no, your most famous forcing an ending? And this was how Lost played out. Last week, most of us were strangers.

But we're all here now. And God knows how long we're going to be here. Lost becomes a success. You're all here now. And God knows how long we're going to be here. Lost becomes a success. You're making this show. ABC decides early on that they want it to go 10 seasons. And you say, no, we'll give you six. And then you even say, we're going to make fewer episodes per season than the norm. I feel like that would be so hard to even ask for now.

How hard was it to do back then? Well, it seemed impossible at the time. At the time that Lost started, as you might imagine, the primary critique of the pilot was, how are you going to keep this up? There's this big sort of cinematic plane crash, and then you start introducing 14 major speaking part characters, all of whom we're going to be tracking. And in addition to that, the island that they're on, they're not going to be leaving it anytime soon. The show's called Lost, so they kind of have to stay that way. Are you going to run into the Gilligan's Island problem where the audience starts to get frustrated because it would make sense for them

to be trying to get off the island? And my response to that always was like, you're right. So let's design like a finite beginning, middle, and end. ABC just didn't want to engage in that conversation at the time that they picked up the show. It's like, make 13 of these and let's see how it goes. The show was such a ratings hit that it became clear to me instantly that all conversations about ending the show would be over. And I was like, hey guys, this is really great news, but don't forget that issue that you had of how are you going to keep this up? The answer is we shouldn't keep it up forever. That's when ABC said, oh, we were thinking more like 10 seasons. And so the compromise ended up

being six. But I personally wish that we could have done it in four. But even just hearing you talk about wanting to do four, having to do six, but pulling them back from 10, how hard would that conversation even be if you were making a show like Lost now?

Because I compare what happened with Lost, this world that y'all built that had to end, and I compare it to a thing like Stranger Things. And I like that show. Me too. But every season, the kids kill the aliens, and yet they come back. They're endlessly building out this world because they have a thing that works in this fragmented viewing economy. Like, would you face more pressure making a show like Lost now to just keep it going, keep

it going, keep it going, keep it going? And would you feel more pressure to bow to the pressure? Yes, to all of the above. But what you do now is, and this is certainly what we did on Watchmen, which is at the very early stage, you just say, I want you to know that this might only be a season. We want to design nine or 10 episodes with a beginning, middle, and end. And here's why that we would do it that way. Could there be another season of it? Maybe, but that's not really the plan here. What do you think? And if they say, we're not interested in picking up anything that isn't multiple seasons, then they don't go for it. But I do feel that I do see creators now in 2022 saying, I have a five-season plan, and that's what we're going

to do, and then we're going to be finished. I love the fact that Harry Potter ended. J.K. Rowling was very specific in saying there's going to be seven books, and I'm going to bring the story to a close, and did. But then there was a stage play, Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. And then the prequel movies, which are still happening. For sure. I don't begrudge them the right to keep it going. And as a fan, I'm sort of like, and not just a fan, but I've made prequels and sequels and reboots. So I can't be a hypocrite and say, God, come up with an original idea. Meanwhile, I'm making two Star Trek movies and Prometheus.

You know, I wonder also how much of this is about the changing relationship between fans and these shows and these movies and the folks that make them. There was this really weird story in the news last week. Super fans of the Ryan Murphy show American Horror Story got pissed waiting for season 11 of that show because they said he wasn't giving them enough information, behind the scenes info about the new season. So they tweet last week and say, we're going to go on strike, a media blackout until Ryan Murphy gives us something. And the next day, Ryan Murphy announces the launch date for American Horror Story season 11. Wow. And you're like, whoa, fan service has gone to a new level. How much is the keep these worlds going-ness of it all tied to fans just being louder than ever and demanding more than ever?

For those of us who are working on a television show or a movie, we're investing many, many hours, days, many cases, years of our lives to these artistic pursuits. But the fans do the same thing and they have real relationships. The more energy that we invest in these things, the more entitled we begin to feel that we should have a say in what the outcome is. One of the things that I was fascinated by as it related to Lost was that the two questions that we got asked most often were, are you making it up as you go along? Are you just winging it? And the fans wanted the answer to that question to be, absolutely not. We have a plan. We are executing that plan and understanding that

not everything is going to work, but we're sticking to the plan for the most part. Don't worry about it. We got this. We're piloting this plane. We're going to land it. The second question that they asked most often was, what input do we have as fans? Are you listening to- But how do you, okay. But do you feel like you should have to listen to them at all? But here's the thing is, they want the answer to that question to be, we listen to everything that you say and it affects the outcome of what we write.

But then that would suggest that we don't have a plan. And everything that we're doing is like, the band basically finishes a song and then we say, what do you want us to play next? Versus that we have a set list. And so you kind of can't win. And I will just say, having experienced the intensity of the fandom for all of the wonder and fantastic feeling that it brings, and also all of the terror of, oh my God, they're going to hate us if we do this.

It is rarefied special air, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. I mean, that said, you're famously not on Twitter. Correct. I mean, I think it's a part of this existing IP conversation and a part of this how can you say no conversation is the way to say no or to feel comfortable enough with what you're making to say no is to not listen to all the noise. I think if you're a creator now, there's so much noise to

listen to. There's more noise than perhaps 20 years ago. Is the answer just like tune some of that stuff out, delete your Twitter? It is. I mean, you have to tune some of that stuff out, delete your Twitter. It is. I mean, you have to tune some of that stuff out, right? Because it's your job to hear how people are responding to your stuff. I don't think it's fair to demand an hour of someone's time to watch an episode of something that you've made and then say, but keep your response to yourself. Mostly you want to know if they liked it. You would rather not know if they didn't like it. But you can't ask for only positive feedback. It just doesn't work that way. There's always, of course, going to be people who say, this is terrible.

It's the worst thing that I've ever seen. You don't know what you're doing. You're a fraud. You're a huckster. Those people are always going to be out there. They're not haters. They may be. Some of them may be.

But some of them are having a legitimate response. We've all watched shows that we used to like and then stopped liking or liked less. That's part of the nature and the risk of continuing beyond one's expiration date is eventually that milk starts to taste pretty sour. Yeah. You know, I was expecting you to be a little more dour on this stuff, like I am. I personally, as a viewer, I am mad at the existing IP industrial complex. I'm mad that fans think that they can tell a person how to make a show. I'm mad that there is a loss of a certain viewing monoculture. And you're not mad about this stuff. And you seem pretty optimistic about the state of the industry. Are you? You caught me on a good day. I think that your anger is righteous.

I love to hear that. And I completely and totally share it. I think that probably what you're hearing from me is an acknowledgement of my own complicity. I can't sit here and move over into the category of where you are and then answer, but you made Watchmen. That's pre-existing IP. You made Prometheus, pre-existing IP. You made two Star Trek movies, pre-existing IP. I can't not acknowledge my own hypocrisy. And I think that sometimes hypocrisy sounds like optimism. It isn't. I am pessimistic about where this is all headed. Really? Tell me more about that. I think because the real special stuff, the gems, the original stuff, which everybody craves, right? Everybody says,

like, I just want something original. And then ask people what their top 10 favorite television shows of all time are. They're going to mention probably 10 things that were original. They resonated in this way that The Wire, The Sopranos, or Breaking Bad, or I May Destroy You. These are not things that were based on pre-existing IP. And so it's going to get harder and harder for the light that those shows shine to basically break through the cloud cover of all of the juggernauts. And that makes me sad. It does feel like it's only going to get worse. What's the fix for that then? If you're in charge of all the industry, what's the fix?

I would be very bad and I'd be almost instantly fired if I were in charge of the industry because I'm not motivated by what's going to make money and what's going to get the most eyeballs. But the people who sit in those chairs and pull those levers, they have to be or they're going to lose their jobs. And so that fundamental idea of we have to scale, we have to make more, we have to go bigger, it has to keep going. I'm just sort of more along the lines of, hey, we had this wonderful experience. We got two, three, four seasons of something that we loved, and you're not going to get any more. And that's what makes it special.

I love Fleabag. If Phoebe Waller-Bridge wanted to make a third season of Fleabag, that is absolutely her right and I will be watching it, but I'm so glad that she hasn't. But if I were running the studio, there'd be a lot of pressure on me to talk her into making more.

I wouldn't be very good at that job, but I would make less, less, less. Less episodes, shorter seasons, much more of sort of like an artisanal. And again, using that word makes me want to punch myself in the face, but like not in it for Big Macs. I'm in it for like the special meal that I had in one place at one time. And what's amazing about it is I have to go back to that place in order to have that meal again. I can't just walk to the corner and get it, you know? Yeah.

Last question for you, talking about loving and ending things. You've said no to More Watchmen, a show that I want to say received more Emmy nominations than any other show that year that it was up for all the Emmys and won a few. What if a studio says, we're going to give you a bajillion dollars, just give us a Watchmen prequel, sequel, something. Would you do

it? A bajillion? I wouldn't. I really believe that I wouldn't. One of the things that made the Watchmen experience special for those of us who were inside that process, that there was an illuming end date. And I think that maybe the only reason that it worked was because we knew that we were going to be together for these two years and then everyone was going to go off and do separate things. And so I feel like I'd be dishonoring the work that was done on the season that we made by continuing it. And I also feel, as a fellow comic book nerd, some allegiance to the original Watchmen. And so I think that that idea of like, Watchmen is a very special thing. You come in, you do your version of it, and then you're finished. Just treat it with some degree of fragility, because these things are very fragile fragile and you have to treat them with care, love and care.

Well, I tell you what, you have given me a little bit more faith in the world of TV and movies. Have I changed your mind? Oh, my God. Come on. Come on, Sam. Come over to the light side. I think it's going to be all right. I'm going to choose to see the bright side. You're telling me to. So thank you so much for this chat. What better ending than that, Sam?

That's the perfect ending. We stuck a landing. Yes, we did. I love it. Thank you. Thanks again to producer and screenwriter Damon Lindelof. Also, one more thing, listeners. Before we get to our last segment of the show this week,

I want to save some space for Vulture TV critic, Jen Chaney. Jen wanted to share a few thoughts on Olivia Newton-John, who died earlier this week. Olivia Newton-John loomed so large in Jen's life, she said that if she had a daughter, she fully would have named her Olivia. When the news broke earlier this week that Olivia Newton-John died, a lot of women in my Gen X demographic were really, really sad, including myself. And I was trying to think what it was about Olivia Newton-John that resonated with so many of us when we were kids.

And I think it has a lot to do with both her arc within the movie Grease, which kind of paralleled her arc as a musical artist, where, you know, she started out as the girl next door. As she moved on with her career, she started to lean more into, you know, more adult, more sexy kind of material. And in the movie Grease, she makes that transformation ostensibly to win over Danny Zuko, which is not the best message. Tell me about it. But as an artist, I think she made that decision of her own accord,

and that was how she wanted to express herself. You better shape up Cause I need a man When my heart is set on you On a subconscious level, that really resonated with a lot of girls, this idea that you could be

the kind of girl who wears all black leather but also be sweet and nice, that you could contain multitudes. I think in some way she really conveyed that to all of us. And I really appreciated that about her. And I'm going to miss her being in the world a lot. The summer night

Thanks again to Vulture critic Jen Chaney. Culturegeist. Culturegeist. You're listening to Culturegeist. Culturegeist. I don't know, y'all. And now for a segment we're calling Culture Geist. About all the things we can't stop thinking about. The culture that's haunting you, haunting me, haunting all of us, for better or worse. What's happening? My name is Catherine Van Arundelk.

I am a critic at Vulture. And my obsession this week is that there are 25 new episodes of the children's show Bluey, now available to stream on Disney+. But my real obsession is that in one of the new episodes, it's called Omelette, the mom is making breakfast for the dad because it's his birthday, but she doesn't make it as fast as she possibly could because the youngest sister feels left out. So the mom slows down to try to include the youngest sister in the breakfast-making process, even though the dad is hungry and annoyed and it's his birthday. Here is my issue.

I got in a very serious, life-changing, very upsetting disagreement with a colleague at another publication because he watched this episode and he believed that he was seeing a tragic story about a dad whose needs always come last. And meanwhile, what I saw in that episode is a cautionary tale about a mom who has to parent her children and her spouse. My name is Justin Curdo and I cover music for Vulture. And what has been emotionally haunting me recently is Maggie Rogers' new album, Surrender, which just has these little moments that just, like, hit me right in the feels. On one of the singles, Horses,

when toward the end she sings in the chorus, I see horses and I know there's a way. There's this, like, breaking in her voice, and it it's really emotional and I'm like, I feel that. Or there's this song called Shatter where she's singing about how her heroes have died and she wishes she could hear a new David Bowie song again. And I'm like, girl, me too. Makes me want to make a Tumblr account again

just so I can post all these song lyrics and be really emotional. I'm Rihanna Cruz. I'm a producer at Switched On Pop. And over the past few weeks, I've started to dig deep into the absolutely baffling story of Paula Abdul's plane crash. If you're not familiar with the illustrious history of superstar Paula Abdul, Paula has told this frankly outlandish story of a crash in the early 90s. And I took, I had to take seven years off, and then I reappeared on American Idol. So the thing is, though, about this crash is that reporters have not been able to find anything about it anywhere.

No eyewitnesses, no markings, no police reports. The only thing that they have is Paula's stories, which honestly quite conflict. So I haven't been able to stop thinking about it because what happened here? What is going on? Was there a plane crash? Was there not? Really makes you think. My Culture Geist this week is just one single solitary sentence. In the official statement that Donald Trump released after his Mar-a-Lago estate was being raided, he wrote the following line. They even broke into my safe! Exclamation point. I find it hilarious. I imagine Donald Trump saying that sentence with the same energy as right in front of my salad. And if you know, you know. All right, Intuit is hosted by me,

Sam Sanders. The show is produced by Janae West, Jelani Carter, and Zach Mack. Our fearless editor is Jordana Hochman. Our engineer is Daniel Turek. Our music is composed by the mysterious, Thank you. Listen, we're back next Thursday with a new episode. Till then, keep your safes locked up. See y'all next week. Bye.