Today, Explained - Ireland's great divide

Episode Date: May 21, 2018

This Friday, Ireland holds a historic vote that could overturn one of the strictest abortion policies in the world. The race is razor-tight: Facebook and Google have banned foreign political ads, U2 has weighed in, and there's been a massive uptick in voter registration. Sarah Bardon from The Irish Times explains the history and the magnitude of this moment. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Johnny Harris, reporter here at Vox, the Border series. A long time ago, you told me this show convinced you to get a Quip electric toothbrush. Yes, your voice in a very serendipitous moment convinced me in the moment to buy a Quip toothbrush. It was something about the dirtiness of your regular electric toothbrush. Yeah, and it was this narrating of my life that just got me. And so I bought it on, like, I pulled out my phone and bought one and upgraded to the Chrome, like, metal version, like, right away. You went to getquip.com slash explained. It starts at $25.

You can get free refills. Yep. Got a bunch of free refills and it was cool. And I ordered the thing. President Trump announced that he was going to cut federal funding for something called Title 10 last week. Title 10 is a law that funds family planning centers, which is to say that this is part of a promise the president made to defund Planned Parenthood. And I wouldn't fund it. I would defund it because of the abortion factor, which they say is 3%. I don't know what percentage it is.

They say it's 3%, but I would defund it because I'm pro-life. The president's approach isn't fresh or novel or anything. Ronald Reagan actually tried to do the same thing in the 80s when the country was still grappling with Roe v. Wade. And it turns out the United States wasn't the only country grappling with that Supreme Court decision. Ireland was too. Abortion was illegal in Ireland anyway, but they, after seeing Roe versus Wade in the United States, they made an attempt to place a ban on abortion in our constitution

and they were successful. Sarah Barden writes about Irish politics for the Irish Times. The Eighth Amendment was placed into our constitution because of fears that Ireland would follow an American-style abortion regime. Ireland banned abortion in 1983. So abortion is a crime in Ireland. And if you procure an abortion in this country or you assist with an abortion in this country, you could potentially face 14 years in prison. The only exception is if the life of the mother is in danger. It's one of the harshest abortion laws in the world.

There was a case of Miss Y, who was a woman who had traveled here to seek refuge. She was raped in her home country, and she was prevented from accessing a termination here, even though she said she was suicidal. She went on hunger strike and she was still prohibited from having an abortion. Or there was a case of Miss P, who was brain dead. She was pregnant and her family had asked for the life support machine to be turned off. Because the fetus still had a heartbeat, medical professionals couldn't. They have an obligation to try and save the life of the unborn in a circumstance like that, even though it goes against the wishes of the family in this instance. And her family had to take the hospital to court

to fight for their right to have their brain-dead loved one's life support machine turned off and then there's the famous case of Savita Halapanaver. The miscarrying 31 year old was denied a termination in an Irish hospital and later died in agony of blood poisoning. The case has galvanized those in Ireland who say when it comes to deciding between the life of a mother and the life of a fetus, the country's laws are broken. This week, all of this could change. Because Ireland's having a referendum. Today, we are calling for free, safe and legal access to abortion for all who live and work in Ireland.

I honestly can't understand how the born would have the nerve to vote away the right of the pre-born to exist. I'm not sure what should be done about it, but if I have my own ideas, I don't think I should be telling other women what to do. People have to decide for themselves. Well, I don't mind the referendum being called, but I would be against, I'm against abortion really, you know. Sarah, how did Ireland go from, you know, one of the strictest abortion laws in the Western world to this national referendum that's coming on Friday? I can't express how much this debate has divided Irish society over the past three decades.

It's been a debate that has been very hostile, aggressive, at times violent, probably more so in Ireland than in any other country because we are a predominantly Catholic country and finally coming to a head with a vote in the coming days. And so if there's a yes vote, what does it mean? And if there's a no vote vote what does it mean and if there's a no vote what does it mean? I suppose it's easier to answer if there's a no vote so if there's a no vote nothing changes. Nothing changes. If there's a yes vote the constitutional ban on abortion will be lifted and abortion will be made available when a up to the 12th week of pregnancy without specific indications. So essentially a woman wouldn't have to provide a reason for seeking a termination. And then beyond that, abortions would only be provided

when a mother's life or health is at risk or if there is a diagnosis that the fetus would not survive outside the womb. So it's still a restrictive enough policy, but if it is passed and there is a yes vote in the referendum, then it's a radical change for Ireland and one that many people never thought that they would see happening. Who's leading the charge in this referendum? Is there like a political organisation, a party, the Prime Minister? So our Prime Minister is a he's advocating a yes

vote and he is advocating for access to terminations up to 12 weeks of pregnancy. We already have abortion in Ireland but it's unsafe, unregulated and unlawful. That's a bit of a journey for Leo Vracher who was our Minister, to have come on now.

Leo made international headlines when he came out as a gay man in 2014. He was the Minister for Health at the time. And so I think people automatically presumed that he was in favour of such societal change as abortion brings. But he struggled with the issue. There certainly wasn't any point in time

when my views suddenly changed or crystallised. They probably change over time in the same way I think a lot of people have. Partially it's just personal experience. As you grow older, maybe things don't seem as black and white and you meet more people who've had experiences with crisis pregnancies and that causes you grow older, maybe things don't seem as black and white and you meet more people who've had experiences with crisis pregnancies and that causes you to think. And he is now advocating a very strong position for a yes vote.

And we've had kind of sports stars in Ireland that have taken very public positions on it on either side. Abortion is not the answer. By voting no, we are protecting the life of the unborn. We've had singers and actresses and actors again take sides on both sides of the referendum campaign. I'm fully in support of the yes vote. And what this will do is just give women full right and ownership over their own body. What about the Catholic Church? I imagine it's taking a position on this referendum?

I think it's funny, actually, because even though other countries would define themselves predominantly Catholic, in no other country in the world, well, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, but we're one of the only countries in the world where the Catholic Church has such a significant standing in Irish society that it can influence and at times even dictate the outcome of certain events. And despite all the controversies of clerical sex abuse and so forth that this country has endured over the past

number of years, there is still a huge respect and admiration and loyalty to the Catholic Church in Ireland, particularly amongst an older generation. And the church has used every opportunity available to it to express its opposition to abortion and to the proposals that are being put forward. And that's absolutely their right and their entitlement but there have been question marks over the manner in which they've done it. For example there was reports recently of how young girls and boys I should say from the age of about 10 to 12 were having their first holy communion and it's probably the rare occasions in Ireland where the church would be packed to the brim and the priest decries abortion and decries proposals

that are being put forward by the government and it's not the kind of situation where you can get up and walk out if you are in any way offended by what the priest or what the church is saying. And Communions, I think, is the most extreme element of what the church has done in terms of preaching to its congregation. But it's in their literature, it's in their mass booklets every Saturday and every Sunday, which is when the majority of people would attend mass in Ireland. And their decision, I suppose, to constantly remind people of their opposition to abortion will have an outcome on the way people vote. That goes without saying. I feel like Catholicism is one way the American and Irish abortion debates differ,

because obviously this isn't a majority Catholic country. What are the other ways that these two situations are very dissimilar? You in America, from my reading of it, have a kind of year-long anti-abortion lobby group. Whereas here in Ireland, they only tend to participate in debates when it comes to referendum campaigns. Many members of the anti-abortion lobby groups in America have travelled over to Ireland to participate in this debate. We've had protests outside maternity hospitals with very graphic imagery which has been widely criticised. They have come over to assist the anti-abortion lobby group in terms of canvassing and how to target individuals across the country in terms of like social media up until Facebook and Google made the decision to ban adverts on the referendum itself. Facebook and Google are banning foreign ads both

for and against Ireland's abortion referendum. The social media giants say they are concerned about foreign groups influencing the campaign. Is the public pretty evenly split on it? I mean, where are the divisions? Is it like urban, rural? Yeah, in kind of rural Ireland, they would be most likely to be opposing removing the constitutional ban on abortion. And then in urban areas like the capital city of Dublin,

there would be a large swell of support for the proposition. Dublin needs to vote 70-30 in favour of it in order for the referendum to be carried because there is such widespread opposition to it in the rest of the country. Needless to say that there is a significant age divide. The younger voters tend to be more in favour of it and the older voters tend to be opposed to it. So it's ticking all the boxes in terms of the stereotypes.

Like anywhere else, women in Ireland are getting abortions, even though they could go to prison for it. That's next on Today Explained. So, Johnny Harris, you went to getquip.com slash explained, and now? I've used it five times. Just five? Is it because you brush infrequently? Well, no, I just got it a week ago. I brush five times a week.

That's maybe TMI. Is that a TMI thing? Not 10 times a week, but five. No, really. Really? But one thing that I've noticed, probably the best outcome of this is that because I'm excited about this piece of technology, I am more inclined to brush. I've been brushing, like today, I brush in the morning. And I usually brush in the morning. You're not a morning brusher. No, I am more inclined to brush. I've been brushing, like today, I brush in the morning.

And I usually brush in the morning. You're not a morning brusher. No, I'm not. This is getting into some TMI territory. This is revelatory. But yeah, I'm sure everyone brushes twice a day. But because this thing is so sleek and nice and holding it,

it's just such a pleasant experience. I've actually started brushing, I think I'm going to start brushing twice a day. Definitely. The thing I love about it, and I don't know how this is with the non-metal version, but it's so heavy. It's a robust piece of gear. And as a gearhead, as a camera guy, I like a robust piece of gear.

It's heavy. It like holds its weight. And it's just a pleasant thing. The design is just so nice. Quip Electric Toothbrushes, a robust piece of gear. So Sarah, abortion is almost totally illegal in Ireland. What about birth control? Well, birth control is available.

I mean, we're not that bad. Yeah, you can, obviously. I wasn't judging. I was just asking. I've just never been to Ireland. You need to come. It's a lovely country over here. I'll be sure to get a glass of Guinness with you if you ever make your way over here. Thank you. Yeah, no, birth control is obviously widely acceptable. But I think one of the things, I suppose, in Ireland is because there's such a heavy influence in the Catholic Church. We're not taught sex education in an independent fashion because a lot of the schools, they have a religious ethos and some of them are owned by the Catholic Church. And so it was portrayed in a way, you know,

where the responsibility, I suppose, lay with the woman and not with the man, you know, because we seem to be shouldering the blame for having sex with ourselves. But there wasn't the discussion about the responsibility that men have in procreating. And to that point of shouldering all the responsibility, I imagine women are still seeking out abortions. How do they get them? Yes. So nine women a day will travel to the United Kingdom to seek a termination, nine Irish women, and we estimate that three women a day take an abortion pill at home.

So we have abortion in Ireland, just it currently happens in a different country. It sometimes happens in this country when girls and women access pills through their smartphones and they do so under the fear that they could potentially be arrested. And have people actually gone to prison? As of now, no, but there has been cases in Northern Ireland where women imported illegal abortion pills and were arrested for doing so. We really didn't know the extent of the amount of women that were accessing abortion pills in this country until very recently and were made aware of the figures by one of the leading providers in the United Kingdom. So we've kind of only just woken up to it because of this debate on the issue of abortion. And so the government's argument is that if you vote no, and if the referendum to allow for abortion is defeated, that the authorities have been woken up to the availability of abortion pills in this country.

And so while there hasn't been any prosecutions as of yet, it's not to say that there wouldn't be in the future. You grew up in this environment where the strict ban existed as a woman, and now it might finally be coming to an end. How does that feel? So my younger sisters would be 21 and 24, and they feel very passionately and very strongly about it. They've had a significant influence on older members of our family because it's not easy

to have a conversation with your grandmother or your father or your uncle about abortion. You know, it's something that kind of almost causes some men to put up the shutters and you know close the ears and women for that matter too not just it's not confined just men but what I've seen with my sisters and with people of their generation is that they've had conversations with our family members who wouldn't necessarily have always felt comfortable in that discussion and they've had they've tried to bring them along with them. Now, they haven't been successful in every conversation that they've had. But they talk about it more so than anyone would ever have talked about an abortion when I was growing up.

I mean, for example, I was walking on my lunch break yesterday just to get a bit of... We actually have sunshine in Ireland this week, which is a rare occurrence. And so I went for a walk at lunchtime to enjoy the sunshine. And there was a number of young women sitting out having a beer and they were discussing the subject and they were debating it amongst themselves. I mean, I can't tell you how that would never have happened when I was a teenager. That just, you know, we just didn't talk about it. And as I said, the younger generation, my sister's generation, they are both in college at the minute and the voter registration in their individual colleges is phenomenal.

And that doesn't necessarily mean, by the way, that they're all yes voters, but this has woken up the sleeping youth who don't tend to get involved in politics in Ireland quite often. I feel like it's a really big step for Ireland to actually admit that we need to talk about this subject, especially since it's coming from a student movement, and I think that it's really important that we talk about it. You know, you mentioned your prime minister being a gay man.

And Ireland was like the first country, was it the first country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage? With the referendum, yeah. I mean, that referendum was such a joyous occasion for Ireland because we rightly have an image across the globe as a Catholic country because we are. And I remember vividly the day when the referendum result was announced and there was a huge street party in Dublin where gay couples expressed a view that they finally felt equal. Liberty, fraternity, equality! Okay, so slap bang, we're in the middle of Dublin city centre.

We're going to celebrate our equality in Ireland today. I can't actually describe what's going on right now, it's probably the most amazing night of my life. I'm crying all day, I'm so proud to be Irish and I'm so proud to be gay today. It sent a significant message across our own country, but then it sent a significant message across the globe that Ireland was, yeah, we still have our Catholic values, but that we're also progressing. It may be at a very slow pace in comparison to other countries, but we're not necessarily the backwards country that people believe us to be.

If this referendum ends up in a no vote, do you still think Ireland has changed in some way in the past few months? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as I said, it is a conversation that's now had without fear or favour and without that kind of stigma or shame. And that's from both sides of the campaign.

We're talking about abortion in a way that we haven't talked about before. We're acknowledging that women travel. We're acknowledging that women are importing abortion pills. We've never had that before. So there has been a fundamental change in Irish society and we've woken up a generation of feminists in this country. And by feminists, I don't mean just females, but also males too, you know. And in a way, this is for a lot of younger women. this particular referendum campaign is that defining moment in Irish society

and also our opportunity to be part of the Me Too movement, which is taking place across the globe. And I have no doubt in my mind that if people vote no, that we will have a referendum again in another five years' time on the exact same subject. Whereas if they vote yes on May 25th, then I do think that this will be a massive change for Ireland. It will absolutely shake the system here. And yeah, we won't have long to find out. Sarah Barden's a political correspondent for the Irish Times. I'm Sean Ramos for him. This is Today Explained. you travel a lot i hear the quips good for travel are you gonna travel with the quip johnny harris i

guess i probably should it's small enough it's got it comes with this like space age looking case i mean like you can screw on the case over the top it looks like the when buzz lightyear is like in like sheathed in his like nice case yeah it's like a pod um and so yeah i'm gonna screw that on throw it in my my suitcase and i'm going on a big trip soon so So this is perfect. When are you going? Like in the next 24 hours, I'm out of here. Amazing. Where are you going? I am going to Hong Kong. Holy smokes. And you're taking your Quip?

I'm taking my Quip. Yeah. Yeah. I got to brush my teeth when I'm on the road. Once a day? I might go twice a day now that I have the scrutiny of the internet all over me. Okay. So you are going to Hong Kong and other people can go to getquip.com slash explain what a deal. What a deal.