Today, Explained - Kash Patel is posting through it

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

The FBI director's handling of the Kirk assassination proves knowing the ropes isn't as important as being the president's bestie. This episode was produced by Miles Bryan and Kelli Wessinger, edited by Jolie Myers, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Patrick Boyd and Adriene Lilly, and hosted by Sean Rameswaram. FBI Director Kash Patel preparing to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Photo by Chip Somodevilla/Getty Images. Listen to Today, Explained ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Transcript at vox.com/today-explained-podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There hasn't been a lot of comedy in the news lately, just ask Jimmy Kimmel. But there was maybe one funny moment when Cash Patel approached the mic in Orham, Utah last week. He said, Rest now, brother. We have the watch. And I'll see you in Valhalla. Valhalla, a heavenly place in Norse mythology. As many people pointed out, this was a curious juxtaposition. Our Gujarati, Indian Hindu FBI director, referencing Norse mythology's heaven to say,

goodbye to his arch-conservative Christian friend from the Midwest of the United States, all while hanging out, you know, close to Mormon headquarters in Utah. Weird. Cash Patel has had a very weird week. Why are you protecting pedophiles? That is maybe the most offensive thing you could say to me. We're going to tell you about it on Today Explained. Support for today, Explain, comes from Sacks Fifth Avenue.

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It's been a big week for his beat. Very big week. So we had two consecutive days of Cash Patel testifying before both the Senate Judiciary Committee and then the House Judiciary Committee. And these were his first oversight hearings of his seven-month tenure. This is the first occasion for the committee to get back together since the tragic death of Charlie Kirk. And we want to talk about what happened on Capitol Hill, but we want to start back in Utah because Cassie, Cash Patel hasn't just had a big couple of days in Washington. He's had a huge week, right?

That's right. And, you know, when you think about the shooting of Charlie Kirk, I think it's safe to say this was always going to be a very closely scrutinized investigation, not only because of the circumstances of the assassination, but also because Charlie Kirk was truly a fixture in President Donald Trump's orbit, was friends with really significant members of the administration, and that includes FBI director Cash Patel. And so one of the things that we saw Director Patel doing right out of the gate is getting the FBI involved. And that's in part because this appeared to be an act of politically motivated violence.

And the FBI, by tradition, leads investigations into politically motivated violence. And how prominent was his involvement? You know, so the first indication of his sort of direct involvement was a post in which he said the FBI was responding. We are closely monitoring reports of the tragic shooting involving Charlie. Kirk at Utah Valley University. So that came pretty quickly. But if you fast forward the clock, a couple hours later, he then made an additional, a separate post that I think really captured people's attention in which he said, quote,

The subject for the horrific shooting today that took the life of Charlie Kirk is now in custody. And this was notable for a couple different reasons. One, we've never had an FBI director who has been so online before and has announced investigative developments on Twitter. And so that was unusual to have. But the other thing that was sort of striking is that information actually turned out not to be correct. And around the same time that he made this post, the officials in Utah, law enforcement officials and the governor on the ground, suggested that they were, in fact, still looking for the shooter. Shortly after the shooting, we did have a suspect in custody, George Zinn, but he was released from custody after we identified that he did not match the shooter's suspect and was not an accurate person of interest.

And by the end of the evening, we learned that two different people have been taken into custody, but subsequently released. And so that became sort of an interesting development as to how did it get posted in the first place that somebody was in custody who, in fact, was not responsible for the shooting. What's Cash Patel's involvement in the eventual apprehension of the suspect? I think in this case, they really did rely on a family and the family's friends really blowing the whistle on their own child. Robinson's mother saw the photo of the shooter in the news and thought the shooter looked like her son. So they made contact with a family friend who then began the process of contacting local law enforcement. And so that really was the subsequent break. One of the things that was really striking to my ears on Friday morning as we were watching the news conference was there were multiple times where director Patel said, at my direction, X, Y, Z happened.

At my direction, the FBI released the first set of FBI photos at approximately 8 p.m. Where at my direction, the FBI released an ever-before-seen video. Now, typically, that's not really this sort of credit, personal credit that an FBI director looks to take when a major accomplishment like an arrest is made. But it seemed in that moment that it was important to the FBI director that the public understood his direct and specific role that he played and the credit that he perhaps. deserved. And I would say that's not necessarily something that we've come to expect. That's not necessarily how you typically hear the top law enforcement officials describe their own actions in an investigation that, frankly, involved dozens and dozens and dozens of people. I feel like over the course of this investigation in Utah, Cash Patel looks a little

uncomfortable in the spotlight. Was this his first time with this much attention on his leadership of the FBI? And if so, how did he do in that spotlight? There is no question that this was his biggest leadership test. He's only been on the job for seven months. And he actually had not really had a significant public profile prior to becoming FBI director. He had been a podcaster for the several years leading up to his nomination by President Trump. Hey, everybody, and welcome back to Cash's Corner. We hope everyone And then before that, he had been a Justice Department prosecutor and a House Intelligence Committee staffer, but he was not really someone who would have been before the television cameras.

I mean, one of the things that I think was sort of intriguing was that he and Dan Bongino went out to Utah to be part of the investigation but then did not speak at a news conference on Thursday night. So he was standing near the podium but did not speak. And I think some people took note of that. And I should say that it's not necessarily common for the. FBI director to need to feel compelled to be on site of an investigation. There's typically a big leadership team and there are shots that are being called from Washington, but I think it was important for Director Patel to put himself out there as sort of the public face of this investigation. And I think that's in no small part to the fact that, you know, this is Charlie Kirk

who was killed. And he recognizes that the Trump administration, Trump administration allies are really hoping for a quick resolution, as is frankly the American public. And I guess his time in the spotlight in Utah was great preparation for his testimony on Capitol Hill this week. Let's talk about how it went, starting with the Senate questioning. I think it was striking to see the hearing really split along strictly partisan lines. So the Republican senators on the committee who, of course, make up the majority, were very supportive in all sorts of ways of Cash Patel's leadership really elicited to. testimony favorable to him about, you know, the accomplishments that the FBI has made in the last seven months in terms of combating violent crime. But he really faced a series of contentious

exchanges with Democrats on the other side of the aisle. On all sorts of questions, is it probably the most combative exchanges, I would say, with Senator Adam Schiff on Tuesday? Any terminations at the FBI by employees at time? No, no, I'm asking you a very specific question. And I'm going to answer the question, but you don't like the answer because it's the truth. No, I want an answer to my question. and then with Eric Swalwell in the House on Wednesday. Who can you tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein Files? Yes or no?

Why don't you try spelling it out if you're going to mock? Yes or no? Use the alphabet. Yes or no? No, ABC, B.F? Those are people who actually have been sort of his antagonist for many years, dating back to Cash Patel's time as a staffer on the House Intelligence Committee where he was investigating the investigation into potential collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia in 2016.

And so there's a lot of lingering bad feelings and animosity. And I think that you saw tempers really flare where, you know, I think Cash Patel could tell that the line of question was meant to embarrass him or really knock him backwards. And he responded in a way. There was a lot of name calling, some expletives. And so we really saw these these real tense moments. How much nastier do things get with the House of Representatives on Wednesday? One thing that was really brought into focus before the House that was not really a center of attention in the Senate was the Jeffrey Epstein case.

Now, of course, the FBI and Justice Department in July abruptly announced that they would not be releasing any additional investigative files from the Epstein case file. And that was a decision that stunned people. And so one interesting moment was when Cash Patel was presented at Wednesday's hearing with his own words, with different interviews on podcasts where he had said... In 2024, you were asked by Glenn Beck about Epstein's Black Book. And you said, he asked, who has Jeffrey Epstein's Blackbook? And you said, Black Book FBI. And so Democrats seized on that opportunity to say, You aren't releasing this information.

You are part of the government cover-up. And so they really tried to attack him on that front. And the suggestion was that because President Trump's name is known to be in the Epstein files, that perhaps there was an effort by the government to conceal, which Patelah denied. He indicated that he had released through the FBI all the information that he was legally empowered and entitled to release. You've covered the FBI for a long time. The FBI is important in, like,

a 24-7-365 way, not like, say, FEMA, which I think we only tend to think about when there's a disaster in this country. How would you evaluate this week for the Federal Bureau of Investigations? Was it kind of an exceptional one? You know, I think from a, from a perspective of getting somebody into custody, 33 hours is not a length of time that felt unusual or problematic or newsy to me, you know, especially given the way that this unfolded. So I don't think that there's lingering scrutiny for why didn't you get him into custody sooner. But I think that the turmoil that existed prior to the shooting that was, you know, took center stage, obviously at the two days of hearings and we'll continue. I think that

remains like really in the public spotlight. The questions about the personnel purge. I think all of that really is going to be something that's going to continue moving forward. Eric Tucker reports on the FBI, the Department of Justice, and National Security for the Associated Press. AP.org. You'll remember that in addition to running the FBI, Cash Patel is an accomplished children's book author. The plot against the king is Russiagate for the young ones.

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Mark Caputo, the Trump White House reporter for Axios. So we've come to you today to ask you how happy. the Republicans are. Maybe the Trump administration is, but we'll get to that later, with the job Cash Patel is doing. Clearly, Democrats on Capitol Hill, not very happy. How about Republicans? The most prominent voice online who was criticizing Cash Patel's performance was Chris Rufo. And Rufo had, like a lot of people, just really disliked the performative nature of Patel online. We would be wise to take a moment and ask whether Cash Patel has what. what it takes to get this done. I've been on the phone the last few days with many conservative leaders, all of whom wholeheartedly support the Trump administration, and none of whom are confident that the current structure of the FBI is up to this task.

And there are a few other conservatives or obviously conservatives in the administration who shared the belief. They just thought, and they think that Patel is a little too much on Twitter or on X or on social media and sort of not more of your traditional hang back, don't say too much FBI director and in the administration

I'd quoted in our story in Axios some people saying at the end of the press conference that Patel was at where they announced the arrest of Tyler Robinson. He then made this comment to Charlie Kirk to my friend Charlie Kirk

Rest now, brother. We have the watch. And I'll see you in Valhalla. And that was, in the words of one official in the administration, quote, cringe. What do they want to see Cash Patel doing as director of the FBI? Just catching more bad guys. The big thing that is animating the right broadly is the idea that there are a number of leftist groups and organizations who are, funneling money to violent, disruptive protests and illegal activity. You have the crazies on the far left who are saying, oh, Stephen Miller and J.D. Vance, they're going to go after constitutionally protected speech.

No, no, no, we're going to go after the NGO network that fomence, facilitates, and engages in violence. The last message that Charlie sent me was, I think it was just the day before we lost him, which is that we need to have an organized strategy to go after the left-ling organizations that are promoting violence in this country. And those need to be investigated, busted up, and the perpetrators of these alleged crimes are brought to justice. There are those who believe that the FBI has too many, quote, deep-staters and more firings need to happen. Albeit, you see what just happened prior to this murder of Charlie Kirk, there was a lawsuit filed by three years. former FBI agents who alleged that their firing was not only illegal and unlawful, unfair, violated various laws and rules of employment, but also it portrayed Cash Patel as sort of

bumbling in his job and not knowing what he's doing. That's the sort of downside of the mass firings. The upside of the mass firings is that is what the conservative MAGA base wants. Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, had sort of leapt to the fore with that. She got an office. and dismissed a lot of people. Cash, Patel hasn't done as many firings. And in the Maga mind, that has been a mistake. A lot of people were worried that Trump was going to remake the FBI in his image. And that, of course, would be an image of not only a president, but a convicted felon.

Has Cash Patel yet accomplished that, or is that still to come? Or is it unclear? Oh, no. I think a lot of these agencies, bureaus, whatever you want to call them, they have career service employees who are harder to fire, harder to dismiss. They have their own culture, history, and institutions, and perhaps none as storied and as solid as the FBI. We of the FBI feel that we're a part of a team to make America a great and decent place in which we're, to live. We're on that team, all of us together. The ability to really change that is going to be difficult. I'm not saying it's not happening, but I know that people in Patel's orbit have bemoaned how difficult it is to change things. One of them told me is they said it's like an asylum over here.

So the deep state, I'm putting that in air quotes, is still resisting the Trump attempt to takeover. What has Cash Patel accomplished since taking over the FBI? I think one of the innovations or one of the new things that he has done is made himself much more of a political figure. He's on TV way more than any FBI director ever was. All right. FBI director Cash Patel joins us now. FBI director Cash Patel. Cash, thanks for being with us. Joining us again, FBI director Cash Patel.

So it sounds like Cash Patel has lots of static with various people in this administration, with various people in the base. Does he have allies? Among the people who wanted Cash Patel to become FBI director was Charlie Kirk. He advocated for him. Kirk had a very close relationship with Donald Trump

was very involved in the transition. And really, the closest person to Patel is Rick Grinnell, who was an ambassador and then the director or acting director of national intelligence during Trump's first term, who is now a special envoy, including to Venezuela, and he and Cash Patel have a very close and good relationship. That was probably the closest thing to his upper-level sponsor, but Cash Patel also had a very good relationship with Donald Trump ahead of time. I understand from one source that Trump on Sunday...

It was Saturday. Went golfing with Cash Patel and a Newsmax personality. So there was sort of a bonding moment there on the links with the president. And from what I'm told, all went well. And of course, it's only that person at the top who matters in this administration. How's Trump feeling about Cash Patel? in light of recent events in Utah, the hearings on Capitol Hill this week. Donald Trump likes a winner. And in Trump's mind, they got the guy. Cash Patel has made a good

argument as to him having a share or owning a share of the responsibility, or better said, being able to claim credit for catching the suspect by releasing his photo early. He says when others had advised against it. And one of the things that you'll look at and notice in conservative or right-wing press is a very clear and very smart campaign by Cash Patel and the various people of the FBI in his orbit to make sure that he's getting credit for that. And who reads conservative media, conservative publications, and pays attention to conservative influencers?

Donald Trump. What is Cash Patel doing that Donald Trump likes? It certainly can't just be that he raised his voice a bunch of times at Adam Schiff and Corey Booker this week on Capitol Hill. You want the enough of people to believe that? Donald Trump likes his people engaged and active in the fight. And when you take this additional step of the hearing, Cory Booker has probably ensured that Cash Patel will be like FBI director for life under Donald Trump, so to speak. You know, when Cory Booker comes out there and says, oh, you know, you're not going to be here much longer.

You're going to get fired. I think this might be your last oversight hearing. Because as much as you supplicate yourself to the will of Donald Trump and not the Constitution of the United States of America, Donald Trump has shown us in his first term and in this term, he is not loyal to people like you. He will cut you loose. I'm not sure if Senator Booker was playing opposite day games. But when a Donald Trump hears something like that, like, oh, Corey Booker thinks he should go, well, I guess I'm going to keep him. That's an important dynamic to remember. And then secondly, when Patel and Booker went at it and there was sort of shouting match and going back and forth, and he held his own, the Trump Twitter account, the rapid response 47 for the White House, they featured it prominently and said that.

An absolutely unhinged at Sen Booker disrupts the hearing after at FBI Director Cash calls out his lies. Corey is a mess. So that's sort of the Trump White House seal of approval. Donald Trump likes that stuff. He wants people engaged in the fighting. He wants them to mix it up. He wants them to go after Democrats, counterpunch and hit hard, and Cash Patel does that. Mark Caputo, Axios.com, Miles Brian, Kelly Wessinger, Jolie Myers, Laura Bullard, Adrian Lilly, Patrick Boyd, Vox.com.

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