Today, Explained - Okla-home-a

Episode Date: June 21, 2023

A group in Tulsa, Oklahoma, will pay remote workers $10,000 to move there. Vox’s Rani Molla explains why the city is banking on a digital workforce — and whether the program leaves longtime Tulsans behind. This episode was produced by Hady Mawajdeh, edited by Matt Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Patrick Boyd and Michael Raphael, and hosted by Noel King. Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained Support Today, Explained by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Way back in the autumn of 2018, Tulsa, Oklahoma started trying to attract new residents by paying people $10,000 to move to the city. A local billionaire was worried about Tulsa losing population and it was his money that was being spent. Now at the time, that might have seemed faintly ridiculous. Ten grand to up stakes, move to a new city where you'd have to find a new house and a new community, and convince your boss to let you work in Oklahoma. And then came COVID. Americans had gone remote. 2,400 people have moved to Tulsa through this program.

And today, we are going to meet some. I had laundry. That was huge. I had laundry. The New Yorker who realized what she'd been missing. The longtime resident who watched rents go up as new people descended. And the Today Explained producer who applied for Tulsa Remote himself. That's all ahead. The all-new FanDuel Sportsbook and Casino is bringing you more action than ever. Want more ways to follow your faves?

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It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King. Vox correspondent Ronnie Mola has spent a lot of time since the pandemic covering this enormous shift in the way we work remotely. Ronnie, you and my colleague Hadi M Muagdi recently went to Tulsa, Oklahoma to see what they're doing to recruit remote workers. They are paying people and what else? Well, first off, there's that 10,000 headline number, you know, which is a big deal. And I think it gets a lot of media play because of it. But what Hadi and I sort of learned from talking to so many people there was like, it's more than that. Yeah, sure, the $10,000 was great, like as like a hook, as like to catch our attention. But I was making pretty good money.

So like, that wasn't the decisive kind of point for me. Like for these people, they're making, you know, on average more than $100,000 a year. While $10,000 is a big deal, it's not life or death. You know, it's sort of like it helps sort of bump them over the edge. I think the $10,000 was helpful in terms of the moving costs. I think what's really attractive to them is this idea that they could go there and be part of a community. I wanted to have more physical space. I was really intrigued with the idea of community because again, I had moved to the Bay

I hadn't had a lot of time to really build connection and community in that way. So for me, I think it was a combination of acknowledging the fact that although I love DC it was not a sustainable place to be a single parent for one and just realizing oh, I'm craving that community that all these people are talking about. And I think the program does a really good job of integrating them with other people in Tulsa Remote, but also other people in the community so that they can feel like they're part of Tulsa, that they're doing community service, that they belong there,

and in a way that might be more difficult in modern life and in maybe bigger cities. They also kind of enable these interactions to happen with other people from Tulsa Remote and with the city at large, sort of get them set up. And, you know, if you have any questions like, hey, how do I get involved in the city council or the school board? They'll help you out. Okay, so the main draw is $10,000 if you move here. Yeah, you have to come there.

You have to have a remote job. You know, they check that you have a remote job. They do a lot of background checks, that sort of thing. And then you have to stay there at least a year. And the sort of crazy thing is a lot of people are staying much longer than that. So I actually bought my house sight unseen from D.C. It was great. Loved it.

And at the point that we knew my husband was coming back, I decided to buy a second home, turn that one into a rental. One of the things that if people really understand and really take advantage of the program, it's so much more than $10,000. For most people, $10,000 isn't going to change your life, but the access and the community that you get through being an active member of Tolstoy Remote absolutely can be life-changing.

I think 90% stay beyond their first year. 76% of people have stayed since the program began, and that began in 2018. So it's got an impressive retention rate. So who's coming to Tulsa? Tell me about who you and Hadi met. It was actually a wider variety of people than I'd expected. I met people in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s.

It was really all over the place. I mean, generally, I would say what's similar about everyone I met was, you know, they're sort of ambitious. They have these remote jobs, but they also find that something like community is very important to them. I think it's self-selecting in the sense that it's bringing people who already want community and want to put themselves out there and want to meet other people and want to be involved. So, you know, they're a sort of industrious lot.

So I bought my first house with the 10 grand and I started flipping houses in Midtown. Now I'm doing like, I got a 53 unit apartment complex and we're rolling that into whole like community redevelopment. I talked to Elena Haskins. She's this 26 year old UX designer. She moved from Brooklyn. I was going to move to Argentina. I was going to get a car and live in a new city every month, or I was going to come here.

And I couldn't decide, and I thought, well, why don't we start with Tulsa because it's only a year. And here we are, more than a year later. She said what really drew her to the place after she was accepted, she started talking to people on the Slack channels, was this allure of community. This idea that she could be a part of things, that she could, you know, get involved, that she could have this big friend group in a way that she didn't seem to have in Brooklyn because it felt so isolating. So I did talk to a lot of people who were in the program before I came. They're like, oh, this is so great, this is so great. I made all these friends, I have these new hobbies, I started a new business.

So hearing that just, that didn't leave my head. So I kept thinking, you know, maybe that could happen to me. There's something like 160 Slack channels for these Tulsa Remoters, and it ranges in things from book clubs, to biking, to people with, you know, two to six-year-olds and six to ten-year-olds. Like anyone who is like, oh, I can't really make friends or I haven't found anybody I like, they're honestly not trying because we are bombarded with so many opportunities to find something that you like or someone. She was a sort of adventurous person. I think the next weekend she was going to go primitive camping is, I think, the term for it. She wanted to sort of put herself out there, see what she could do. She ended up starting her own business.

She's got a lot of stuff that she wants to try. And I think she saw a lot of other people there who were sort of like-minded. When a person moves there, how are they introduced to the community? Is there like a mixer? Welcome to our in-person orientation. Yeah, there are something like 16 events each month. Oh! And these are done by Tulsa Remote. And some of them are for members only, you know, to get them used to each other, things like that.

But a lot of them have the community there. One of the events we went to while we were there was an orientation. So who are the members? You are, point to yourself, me, right? So what do we... There was 50 new Tulsa Remoters, and they come there and they kind of learn the ropes, they learn about all the Slack channels, they learn about the different things they have access to, but they also meet a bunch of people from the town. We ran into someone named Timur Tbebu. He was a software engineer from New Orleans. He just moved to Tulsa two weeks earlier. He's out on the rooftop and this guy comes up to him and they start talking. And this guy is part of SCORE, which is this business group that for free offers

people business help. It shows you how to start a new business or do a side project. And it turns out Timur was like... So I definitely want to transition to working for myself as a software engineer and possibly as a photographer. Don't know where to start, so definitely want to connect with you and talk about that. And so this guy's like, oh, well, here, call me. I'll tell you what to do.

If you have ever any problems, you know, like it's free of charge. Come ask me about it. Whether they're accountants or attorneys or CPAs or engineers or whatever. And so we got somebody who can help you with that. Yeah, for sure. And it's a great place to start. And like I said, everything we do, we do for free. So they set them up with people like community stakeholders like that. There were people there signing them up to vote, that sort of thing. And then there's more community service stuff, you know, just volunteering, that sort of

thing. What does Tulsa have that makes it a cool place to live if you're a 20-something? You know, I'm a 30-something now, so like take this with a grain of salt, but it felt pretty cool to me. Like there were really nice coffee shops, there were nice restaurants, there were young people about, it's a nice looking city. We were driving around with Grant Bumgarner. He's a Tulsa native and he went away to college, came back. And he was saying that a lot of stuff that I was looking at was... A parking lot, a vacant building, or a warehouse space. Everything you see is new and renovated or remodeled.

One place we went to was the Gathering Place. It's this giant park. It's so FOMO-inducing. It's a beautiful, beautiful sprawling park with natural plants and open meadows and these basketball courts lined with wildflowers. Yeah, we've got sports courts, a skate park, a BMX pump track, a science and math museum, all sorts of stuff. There's a lot of stuff that you could see like, okay, this is a nice place to be. It's a completely approachable and sort of fun city, but it felt cool, but not too cool. Oklahoma is a conservative state, yeah? Yeah, and this is something I asked a lot of people in the Tulsa Remote Program about,

because, you know, recently the state of Oklahoma has enacted all these really regressive laws. Oklahoma put into effect the strictest abortion ban in this country right this moment. We want Oklahoma to be the most pro-life state in the country. We want to outlaw abortion. There is no gender affirming care for young people. We are simply delaying the day at which someone might choose to access gender-affirming care to a time when they might be more mature. And so I asked these people who are moving from a lot of liberal places and a lot of liberal people in general, like, you know, how does it feel? Like, is that okay to you? And, you know, the response I feel? Like, is that okay to you? And,

you know, the response I got was, yeah, that's concerning. Yeah. So I am reminded when I'm out of my bubble and I had to get some, you know, medical things taken care of. And so that's when I'm reminded of that. So when I want to have those conversations, I have to, I'm reminded of where I am. I talked to a woman named Montana Kane. She's a Black woman who moved from South Carolina. And, you know, she loves it in Tulsa. She's found her partner there. She started a business. She's got this really big social network of people, of other people like her. You know, she said it's sort of a bit of a bubble she's created. But like, at the same time, she says when she's traveling to Oklahoma City, she doesn't want to stop at small gas stations, you know, for fear of racism or any, you know, sort of violence or something like that.

I'm not stopping at Mama's gas station. You better go find a QT. You know, like, I am always on the defense. So I am very clear that when I drive anywhere outside of Tulsa, I do not drive at night. She also says, you know, when she's looking for maternal care, she doesn't want to, you know, maybe go to a hospital that has a religious affiliation in case something were to happen. So she said, as a businesswoman, as someone just like a single person starting out here, it's great. But you know, when I start thinking about the future, it's a little more uncertain for me. I've never been stopped by the police. I don't want to, don't ever plan to, you know,

but that's something that I fear. My partner drives late at night. I am scared for him. So it's in those instances where I'm like, okay, fantasy over, back to reality. I'm putting myself in the shoes of someone who is from Tulsa, maybe whose family goes back generations. And I'm thinking about this newcomer who says, I don't want to go to a small gas station. I'm worried about going to a hospital in a city like this. Right. And I feel some kind of way about that, right? I feel some kind of way hearing that. Because she's the new one and I've been here.

What do people from Tulsa think of this? It's funny you asked. Hadi and I actually went knocking on doors trying to get people to be like, what's the real deal with Tulsa Remote? How do you feel about this? Yeah. And, you know, largely people were pretty open to it. Like, I didn't get any horrible criticism about it. It seems like a really cool program.

I have a few friends in it. I have a lot of yoga students that came through Tulsa Remote, and anytime they showed up in class, they all seemed to like Tulsa and want to stick around. We talked to a man named David Bestary. He's a mental health technician. He's been there for 40 years. He said, you know, most of his interactions with people in Tulsa Remote have been pretty good. Everyone I've met over the years, even some of my neighbors, have been really cool that moved here because of that. I think it's been more than likely a positive thing for the future of Tulsa. I don't know if everyone feels that way. I feel like some people get upset with raising rents and such.

He said maybe it would be better if they spent more money on the people who were here rather than bringing people in. There's always been a brain drain here, and a lot of that can be attributed to probably the politics. The more educated people get, they want to leave a lot of times, and that sucks. And so just offering a little bit of an incentive to people who got their educations and grew up elsewhere to come here seems okay. I don't have a problem with that, but it also seems pretty short-sighted when there's also people who live here. Coming up after the break,

you heard some of the Tulsa remoters say that 10 grand is not a ton of money, but you add that up over 2,400 people and it sort of is. So where's all that money coming from? And are longtime residents of the city being left out? Support for Today Explained comes from Aura. Aura believes that sharing pictures is a great way to keep up with family, and Aura says it's never been easier thanks to their digital picture frames.

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Oklahoma! Yeah! It's Today Explained. We're back with Vox correspondent Ronnie Mola, who, when last we spoke, was knocking doors in Tulsa to see what native Tulsans think about this remote work scheme. And Ronnie, some of them told you they're upset about rents going up. It was less about the newbies and more about, like, what about us?

There is something about it that discredits the people that are already here and maybe like the artists and entrepreneurs that are from here and live here and they could use that money. We talked to a woman who's a chef and, you know, she has her own entrepreneurial dreams, but she hadn't heard about these programs that are there to help entrepreneurs in Tulsa. I mean, it's kind of, I'm at a loss at how I hadn't heard about that naturally, because I'm in with a lot of the things and the culture here. Yeah, you feel part of the community, but you don't know about that. Very much a part of the community. I had no idea. And she was sort of upset, like, hey, how come I haven't heard about that? And the thing is, you know, the people who live in Tulsa don't have an orientation event.

Right. To, like, the amenities that are there for them in their city that are there, you know, because the city itself and also because of this billionaire funding all of these different programs. But I think it might be in some ways a marketing thing, like, how do you get the people there to know what's available to them so that they're not feeling like, hey, you're just paying people $10,000 to come in here and, you know, complain. Okay, so people in Tulsa are saying, why don't you spend some money on us? It seems like a fair point of view. 2,400 people times $10,000 is $24 million just on grants to get people to move to Tulsa. And then there's obviously other money involved here, you know, these mixers and et cetera, et cetera. Where is all the money

coming from? So the Tulsa Remote Program is funded by the George Kaiser Family Foundation. George Kaiser is a local billionaire who has pledged to give away more than half of his wealth. A lot of it's going towards young Tulsans. He does stuff for early education. There's a lot of these accelerator programs that teach Tulsans how to code, that sort of thing. And he's also investing in Tulsa Remote. So that's where a lot of money for these programs and programs like it and just public works in general in Tulsa is coming from. My motivation for philanthropy was largely guilt because I realized that I gained advantages by being born in an advanced society with loving parents.

Okay, so George Kaiser is a local guy. At the same time that he's asking or enticing new people, incentivizing new people to come in, is he doing anything to keep locals from moving out? Yeah, there were a bunch of programs that I heard about. One was this Cyber Skills Center, and it helps local Tulsans get coding degrees. You know, I think it's in cybersecurity, data science, that sort of thing. So before I went to school at Holberton for full stack, I was doing hair and have been for seven years.

And the reason I decided to change is when the pandemic happened, I was not able to work for six months. So because of that, I have a daughter to take care of. And what can I do from home? If there's another pandemic, what can I do that I can still provide for me and my daughter? And it was this. These are people who are taking advantage of these programs. They're subsidized again by George Kaiser. Oh, yeah. Daddy Kaiser is all in that.

He gives us our monthly allowance when we're good. And they get like a monthly stipend so that they can afford to go to the school. I guess get accepted into Holberton and then you have to make less than $60,000 a year in order to qualify for up to $1,500 a month in stipend. I think they have to pay back some of it once they make a certain amount of money. But until they get a job in their career, it's free. They're using these programs in order to get jobs a lot like the people in Tulsa Remote have. You know, they want these knowledge work jobs at computers where they get paid a lot of money. And you know, if there's another pandemic

that happens, they can work from home. And that doesn't mean that they're going to lose their income. There's also things like Build in Tulsa, which helps black entrepreneurs. There's a lot of programs like that. But you know, obviously, you have to hear that they exist. I mean, you're from here, you go to college here, you said you're an entrepreneur. That's how you introduced yourself. Like, do you think there should be more programs to maybe try to help you build and stay here? Yeah, I do know there is one that's already doing that here in Tulsa. It's called Skies to the Limits. So if you're a small business owner and you're looking to get some funding, I got funded from them. They don't like remote work as much as they thought they would.

Three years in, what do you think happens in Tulsa? Do you think this 2400 is sort of peak move to Tulsa, or do you think this keeps going? No, I think it keeps going because, you know, obviously there's a callback to the office, but like I don't want to overstate the callback to the office. Like still 20% of people who can work from home full time do. And that's many multiples higher than it was before the pandemic. Even if this isn't everybody, this is a big chunk of the population that is now sort of footloose and able to be like, hey, maybe I could live in a cheaper city. I asked Tulsa Remote, you know, what's happened to applications. And they said, you know, as soon as the pandemic hit,

it's gone up and it has not gone down. Some of the people who've moved there for Tulsa Remote, you know, maybe their jobs have called them back. They've gotten different jobs or started their own business. So Tulsa Remote doesn't see it as an issue. I mean, you've talked about some upsides, some downsides, some resentments here, but it does appear to be working. Do you think other cities that are struggling to either retain or to attract population might start doing things like this? A lot of other cities have. I think there's maybe something like 70, definitely dozens of cities across America, you know, from Muncie, Indiana to Bentonville, Arkansas, are starting programs

like this because it makes a lot of sense. You know, you offer a headline incentive, and then you get it back many fold over because these people come in with their big incomes and buy houses and spend money and live there for a long time, ideally. Ronnie, let me ask you lastly, would you move to Tulsa? I was talking about this a lot with Hadi during our trip. I was like, you know, I could totally see it. It's livable. I sent my sister a link on Zillow. You know, when I got there, we found this like, I found this beautiful mid-century

modern sprawling house on a wooded lot in Tulsa. And it was, you, but it was like, it was, I think maybe like $300,000 or $400,000, but it was for a five bedroom, three bath house. And it was just pristine. You know, it was, it was out of control, but obviously like people there are probably like, yeah, that's a lot of money because of the average home price in Tulsa is $190,000. But when you hear that from anywhere else, you're like, wow, that's a lot. I mean, I don't know if I personally would do it. I've got my own good thing, upstate New York, in my own middle-of-the-woods place. But I could definitely see the draw, especially if I were a little bit more footloose, if I was looking for something new, I could definitely see that being a place to start. It was attractive in a lot of ways to me.

Today's episode was produced by Hadi Mouagdi, who told me that he, in fact, applied to be part of Tulsa Remote. Yeah, Noelle, I did apply. And after visiting Tulsa, I would totally live there. If only we could get Vox to allow their employees to live in Oklahoma. It was edited by Matthew Collette. Laura Bullard is our fact checker. And Michael Raphael is our engineer. I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. Thank you.