Today, Explained - On with Kara Swisher (and Stacey Abrams)

Episode Date: October 23, 2022

Stacey Abrams is running for governor of Georgia, again … against Brian Kemp, again. The two last faced off in a heated contest in 2018, with Kemp’s win hanging on 54,723 votes. This time, he’s an incumbent and even further ahead in the polls. So, in this recent episode of her new podcast, On with Kara Swisher, Kara asks Abrams: what is different now? Find On with Kara Swisher in your favorite podcast app: https://bit.ly/3eOYMbi Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit connectsontario.ca. Hey everyone, Sean coming at you on a Sunday casino. Gambling problem? Call 1-866- also get Barack and Hillary. She does a lot of politics. And that's what we're going to share with you today. We're bringing you an episode of Kara's new podcast. It's called On with Kara Swisher. It's from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is a recent episode of the show in which Kara spoke with Georgia gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams, who's trying to win the state again in just a few weeks. My bet is you'll learn a lot from Kara's conversation with Stacey. And my bet is you seek out On with Kara Swisher wherever you listen. Peace. Thank you for talking to me again. It's our fourth or fifth interview. And I want to start off with, I guess, the news.

The recent polls have, Brian, come up between two and five points. Why do you think you are so far behind right now? I'm not far behind. In 2018, the polls had me down. He was at 49. I was at 45.8. This is a polarized state with an electorate that is usually not included in polling. So let's use an example. 10% of the state's population is not white and not

black. When you're looking at a polling size of 500, that means they're talking to maybe five or six people to extrapolate what's happening in one of the most diverse non-Black, non-white communities. And so these polls are snapshots. The question is, who are they taking a picture of? And what we know is that based on our internal polling, based on what we saw happen with mind-numbing regularity in 2018, is that the polls are going to look and they're going to see that in a state that is shifting, both in terms of partis won the game in 20 and 21. And we are going to continue to do that work because I see polls as a snapshot, not a predictor. Okay. So you're looking for that same Georgia miracle that you had sort of twice. You did have the same lineup for Georgia governor with the same opponent. You lost that race in 2018.

He is now an incumbent. What is different now from your perspective when you're looking at the whole state as a candidate? In 2018, I lost that race by 54,723 votes. Since that time, Georgia has added 1.6 million new voters. They are predominantly more likely to be people of color, to be women, to be younger. And that means there's a new voter pool that is modeled about 53% to be people of color, to be women, to be younger. And that means there's a new voter pool that is modeled about 53% to be democratic. And so number one, there are more opportunities for victory. Number two, we have now been through COVID. We have seen the end of Trump, but we have also been through racial violence. Women have lost their right to choose in Georgia. Marriage equality is under attack.

The governor does not believe in it. And there is a Supreme Court that has signaled very strongly that the governor will be the deciding factor on most of those issues. And so it is a critical race where people are starting to understand if you want to protect your freedoms, the Supreme Court isn't going to do it.

Congress can't do it. It's up to the governor. Okay. Well, how are you looking at it? Is it persuasion game or a get out the vote one? You talked sort of two different things there. Well, but we tend to, in political parlance, divide these communities where persuasion is about ideology and turnout is about activation. What I have always focused on and what I'm being chastised for is that I recognize there's a third category, and that is persuasion to vote. There are communities that are automatically presumed to be voting simply because they look like the candidates. There is no conversation about Herschel Walker and his performance with Black voters.

There is a conversation about my performance with Black voters, but here's the thing. My job isn't to persuade them not to vote for Brian Kemp. By and large, they will not. He will get a certain percentage because the certain percentage of every community is conservative. But my job is to persuade them that voting is worth their effort

and worth their time. Because when you just asked me about what's different, the litany of troubles that I just listed, they're attacking Black communities at disproportionate rates. They're attacking API communities, Latino communities, women. And so my responsibility is to persuade those communities that voting matters, that the exhaustion that has been about since 2016, that we've got to try one more time, because this is not about persuading their ideological shift. It is about persuading a behavioral shift. But when we allied that issue, when we allied that group, when we presume it's either activation or transformation, we ignore an entire population where our job is to persuade them that it's worth getting

in the game again. So this weekend, you actually were reaching across some areas that don't vote for you, I think, probably. You were on Fox News Sunday mornings earlier this week. Talk about why you went. Are they persuadable to you from your perspective? And let me just say, Shannon Bream did the interview by calling you Stacey Adams a few times, which I found on, I don't know what I found it. Pete Buttigieg did this a lot and has

continued to do so. You think it's important to keep talking to this constituency? Absolutely. I win elections, not just for myself, but for others. And I've been working to help elect people in Georgia for years. And you win by building coalitions. If you only talk to the same people, and you only talk about the same issues, or you talk about the issues differently when you talk to someone else, then people grow in their distrust, but you also reduce the likelihood of expanding your coalition. So I tell the same story no matter where I am, whether I'm on Fox or MSNBC, if you ask me a question about abortion, I'm going to give you the exact same answer. Whether I'm on The View or I'm on Charlamagne

the God, I'm going to talk about issues in a way that people can access it, can understand it. And if they decide they don't support me anyway, mazel tov, go with God. But you won't be able to say you didn't hear from me. Is there an advantage to facing the same opponent for a second time? Are you able to anticipate him better? I don't think it's about who he is.

I think it's about what the Republican Party is. And what we know is he is emblematic of the Trumpist MAGA themes. He has done everything Donald Trump wanted. The only thing he didn't do was. This is the man who said that he was going to round people up in his truck. He signed as his first major act of legislation, an anti-abortion act that strips women of their right to choose before they know they're pregnant. If that is not the same type of draconian and callous anti-woman rhetoric we're hearing from other Republicans, I don't know what is, but my job is to remind people of who he was before he got the veneer of normalcy. So I was going to ask what your relationship with him is now, but I'm getting a sense of it. And do you think that refusal to overturn Biden's victory in

Georgia in 2020, which was a critical state, did you find that admirable at all? He did his job. Every other governor has, because when people ask that question, my follow-up question is, what was the alternative? The alternative was committing treason. This was not an act of courage. He simply refused to commit treason. I refuse to commit treason every single day. The current election cycle, we have a lot of people who are saying that. They're saying they will. Hundreds. But my question is, what were the consequences for saying no? That Trump got mad at you? Okay. Your job was not to serve.

You were not elected by Donald Trump. You were elected by the people of Georgia. Your job is to serve the needs of the people of Georgia. And so refusing to essentially negate their voices is not an act of courage. It's an act of competence. Do you think it's an asset to him, though? I mean, it seems to be an asset to him, is that he's not as crazy as. So I think national narrative has framed it that way. That's not how it plays out here.

I mean, it's very polarized here. But the national veneer he's been able to assume is what is the most troubling to me. You were very well known for your comedy in Compromise. It's what really attracted me to you in the first place when I interviewed you so long ago. But your ads recently are pretty tough, calling him Brian Kickback Kemp. Do you think it's important to have this kind of campaign happening right now? So let's be clear about the difference. One is actually laying out the contrast with my opponent.

And it is about making certain that people know what he is and what he has done. Contrast matters, especially when you're running against an incumbent. The job I have is to explain why he should be fired from that job. However, at the exact same time, I've had Republican women do ads for me. I have been the same person the entire time. I have proposed legislation that serves all Georgians. I've gone on Fox News

because the comedy that you speak of is the core of how you get things done in Georgia. We are a divided state. And regardless of who wins, I intend to be the victor, but regardless of who wins, Georgia Democrats are going to pick up additional seats in the House and in the Senate. And the demography of Georgia is going to continue to change. The governor of the state, whoever is elected in November, will be the governor when Georgia becomes a majority minority state. And that is a critical marker.

But things cannot get better for any of our communities if we do not work together. My job is to say who he is, what he has done, but it's also to say who I am and what I will do. And that's what our commercials are really designed to tell. But they've got to break through the noise and break through an unprecedented slog and onslaught of television ads. So but you talked about things you've done a few weeks ago, a US court judge ruled against fair fight action, your voting rights group, the court found Georgia election rules covering absentee ballots, voter rolls and applications do not violate the Constitution or Voting Rights Act, as your group had alleged. This was a judge, Stephen Jones, a U.S. District Court judge, who was an Obama appointee. And he said this, and I'd love your response to this.

Although Georgia's election system is not perfect, the challenge practices violate neither the Constitution or the Voting Rights Act. In a 288-page order, he said this, the burden on voters is relatively low and that your group did not provide, quote, direct evidence of a voter who was unable to vote, experienced longer wait times, was confused about voter registration status. How do you respond to this? Because it was a big fight for you and it's been a big issue. Voting rights has been a huge issue for you. And it remains one. So let's begin with what the lawsuit alleged at the very beginning. We had a litany of issues. And in anticipation of the case moving forward, the state legislature in 2019 actually responded to a number of our initial allegations, including replacing machines that we alleged

properly were improperly used. They made changes to the voter purge system. They made changes to the absentee ballot system. That's one of the complaints that we heard from Donald Trump, that we actually forced improvements on a range of issues. We forced Brad Raffensperger to restore 22,000 people he purged from the rolls. So people who don't know Brad Raffensperger is the Secretary of State. And so the litany of things that we were able to accomplish because of this litigation, I think has been lost a bit to the annals of memory, because it's taken four years to move this litigation through. There were three remaining claims that Judge Jones adjudicated. And on those three remaining claims, under the Greenville standard,

which existed before 2021, he would have found the state of Georgia in violation of the Voting Rights Act, Section 2. However, because of a Supreme Court that continues to weaken the Voting Rights Act, they attacked Section 2 with the Brnovich decision. That's named after the attorney general in Arizona. That one weakened section two and said that racial bias by itself was insufficient as a standard.

And what he said with great pains in that opinion was that had the Brnovich standard not taken effect, that under Greengill's we would have won, part of what the judge adjudicated was that in the end, the burden wasn't too heavy. My belief is the burden shouldn't exist. Right. So you're saying your opinion is that there are problems with voting rights in Georgia still, but the standard is too low nationally for those gaps to be recognized. That's exactly it. Let me talk about Raffensperger very briefly. He did more than not commit treason. He spoke out rather more than anybody in that state, I think, except for one or two other people on the Republican side. But Secretary of State Raffensperger put out a statement after

the ruling saying, quote, stolen election and voter suppression claims by Stacey Abrams were nothing but poll tested rhetoric, not supported by facts and evidence. He's basically accusing you of misinformation. Can you respond to that? He lies. I mean, that's part of my challenge with the lionization of Brad Raffensperger. So let's be clear about who he is. He is the Secretary of State of the state of Georgia. He purged 22,000 voters, and we had to sue him to get those voters restored. He is the person who used the system in Georgia to deny naturalized citizens the right to vote. He is the person who uses a felony match system to disproportionately harm Black people. And he supported legislation in 2021 that allows unlimited challenges to voter

registration. And right now in the state of Georgia, 64,000 people have to prove they have the right to vote because Brad Raffsenberger supported expanding this opportunity without requiring either that the communities that are being attacked have the ability to have resources to fight back. He did not work and fight to make certain additional resources remain available. He is a part of the system. And what he is upset about is that we forced his hand on a number of issues. But here's the other piece of this that I need people to hear very clearly. Brad Rauschenberger is not a good actor. Election denial has two pieces. And we have been myopically focused on the outcome side. That's what Donald Trump yelled about, that he didn't win and thus

the outcome is a problem. But when you deny access, that is equally pernicious because you don't have to manipulate the outcome if you can constrain the access. And any secretary of state like Brad Raffsenberger, who will work so hard to deny access does not deserve the mantle of being a democracy defender. And so once again, getting credit for one moment of either bravery or clarity does not dispel years of bad behavior. So you're saying he's not good, better than the alternatives? What we need to understand is that our standards cannot be so low that we no longer have standards. I have no claim to an outcome, but every American should be fighting for the right to access for eligible voters. That's the challenge. And when we lower

our standards, we lower the likelihood of our democracy surviving long term, because every inch we go down, that means fewer and court proceedings, Georgia put a 2019 law that in effect bans abortions after the sixth week of pregnancy. How big a deal is that going to be for voters, for businesses, economics? It is a crisis. Georgia has 82 counties with no OBGYN, 18 counties with no family practicing doctor, and nine counties without a physician at all. We are losing a level one trauma center, which means we're going to lose even more doctors this month. And we know that women are not going to come to a state where if they get pregnant, they have no choices.

And the election in Georgia is not just critical for Georgia. I am the only candidate right now who has the likelihood of being able to reverse and repeal this law. If I don't, you cannot get an abortion from Texas and Oklahoma all the way across to North Carolina. North Carolina is the first state you get to. From Tennessee down to Florida, that's 56% of the Black population in this country, which means for women, for people of color, it is dangerous for a woman to live in Georgia. And for those who say, well, you can just leave, Georgia is the largest landmass state in east of the Mississippi, east of Texas. Florida is the other one. And trying to get out of here

to get to help is nearly impossible if you don't have resources. And we have some of the highest poverty levels. And so it's dangerous for women, but it's also economically, we could lose a $4.4 billion industry. The film and TV industry. And we've already seen signs that this could happen. We lost Music Midtown because of Brian Kemp's gun laws. We lost the MLB game because of his anti-voter laws. And we are going to lose the industry that is hiring and employing more than 90,000 people because of his abortion laws. So you believe this remains a potent issue in this election?

Absolutely. All right. Let me ask you then about the comment you made. You knew I was going to ask about this. A few weeks ago, you made a comment about abortion, that the fetal heartbeat that can be heard at six weeks is manufactured and that it's used to control women. There is no such thing as a heartbeat at six weeks. It is a manufactured sound designed to convince people that men have the right to take control of a woman's body. Let me just say, I was pregnant, and I heard that fetal heartbeat at that time. And it was

one of the most important moments of my life, I have to say. And I understood that it was an electrical impulse, but it was life. It was that my child was probably viable. And it was a big deal. I get, technically, you're correct, but I have to say as a mother, I didn't like hearing that. I think left, right, and center, a lot of people might say that. Can you talk about that comment? And would you say something different now? The issue that I have is that the laws in Georgia and across this country have been premised on this moment. If you were trying to get an abortion, even prior to HB 481, across the South, across the country, one of the predicate acts that you have is that you are compelled to listen

to an ultrasound before you can make this decision. This came about because Ian Donald, an OBGYN in Scotland, said, let's use this technology that was actually being used for shipbuilding. And he worked with an engineer to use it to do ultrasounds on women. This was in 1956. And he said part of his intention was to dissuade them from abortions. And because it's an electrical impulse, the machinery has to produce a sound. And the intention was to accomplish exactly what you felt. It puts into real time this idea and it gives it shape. But we know it's an embryo at that moment. And for those for whom this is what they want, you should absolutely celebrate it. But when it is used as a weapon against women, when it is used to manipulate them and also

to justify denying their choices, denying them health care, it is absolutely critical that we speak honestly about what happened, especially when it becomes part of the narrative language we use to justify denying medical care to women. Let me ask you, though, why make this point, given so many women are so emotional who do want to have children about this moment? It trips you up into somewhere where science and emotion don't meet. Even if you're correct, technically correct, was it a mistake? It was not. I was sitting with a group of students who were using language, misinformation to justify behavior. And in that moment, and as a matter of conversation, I do not intend and I am absolutely cognizant of the fact that there are women for whom this is a transformative moment.

As a woman, I never want to deny anyone their choice or their joy. But when that language and that framing is used to justify stripping them of their autonomy and of medical care, we absolutely have to talk about it. We absolutely have to push back against any attempt to justify denying women abortion care and medical care. I think you've explained that much better. I think the Republicans have seized on it, though, what you said. There is nothing I will, but here's the thing. I was sitting with students, and the challenge of that moment was that they only show you a clip of what happened.

We went on to have a very strong conversation about why this matters in Georgia, and I was talking to Spelman women. I get it, I get it. I get it. But clips are how campaigns go. Clips are how campaigns go. But if we can't have honest conversations with young people because we're afraid that someone's going to clip it, then we're going to start not only circumscribing what we say, we're going to start limiting what we think. Fair point. Speaking of abortion, what do you think of the controversy around Herschel Walker? You mentioned that he and you are held to different standards.

How is that? How are you thinking about that? The hypocrisy of the Republican Party. I mean, Brian Kemp actually responded to what Walker said by saying he's not supposed to be involved in people's personal choices. So the governor who imposed an abortion ban and interfering with the personal choices of women says it's not his job to interfere in other people's personal choices. He only means in men's personal choices. He has no problem interfering in the personal choices of women. So for me, this is about the hypocrisy of both men. Herschel Walker is getting the brunt of the attack, but Brian Kemp is the person who has actually got the power to do something about it in Georgia, and he has wielded that power to hurt women in the state.

Were you surprised by Walker here? No. As these revelations? women, protect our rights, protect our freedoms. And there is more than enough attack coming from Brian Kemp that the individual actions of one person, the hypocrisy is not surprising because hypocrisy is the raison d'etre right now that I see of the Republican Party. We'll be back in a minute. Support for Today Explained comes from Aura. Aura believes that sharing pictures is a great way to keep up with family, and Aura says it's never been easier thanks to their digital picture frames.

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BetMGM.com for terms and conditions must be 19 years of age or older to wager ontario only please play responsibly if you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you please contact connex ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge betmgGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. So I want to do a lightning round to talk about different demographics and campaign strategy. For Black men, your recent strategy is focusing on this group, although recent polls suggest that since 2018, your favorability in this demo has dropped eight points. How are you looking? How do you win that back? My Black performance numbers are identical to Senator Raphael Warnock. However, the other

reality is this isn't recent. I have been doing this since 2018, and I was chastised in 2018 for talking to communities of color, specifically Black and brown people, Black men in particular. I simply continued what I did then, and I'm doing it now. But I know that Black men are the most likely to be distrustful of politicians and of government because they are the most likely to be disproportionately harmed in education, healthcare, housing, and employment. So not vote at all, so that you're worried that they're not going to, it's persuadable. So okay, white voters, we know you're targeting Black, Latino, Asian American voters along with young people. How are you reaching white voters? Can you win without them? I wouldn't want to. I have to build a coalition. I'm going to continue to talk to voters

across the board. What people are concerned about is that I actually identify the communities and the needs those communities have because we are not a monolithic society, and it is disingenuous to pretend that we have identical needs. We all have the same basic frames, education, housing, health care, and making a good living. But what barriers we face and what access we need differs depending on the structure of community. And that's what I talk about with every one of these groups. OK. Rural voters, same?

Did the same. I talk to everyone, and I go everywhere. Do you think you need to tamp down your national popularity? You certainly got a lot of it. Do you think that's a problem in Georgia for you? You're very famous across the nation. You almost, you're a vice presidential consideration. I have been very intentional about being local in our conversations for the last few,

since the launch of the campaign. And that has created this notion that I'm less popular or that I'm, I'm in trouble. No, I was intentionally quieter because in 18, we had to be loud to get attention. And this year we need to be very directed in our conversations so that people understand what's at stake and what's, what the opportunities are. All right, let's talk nationally and then we'll be done. You've been in talks with the Biden White House to have the president on the trail with you. Will that happen? And is Biden, how do you look at, obviously you think he's a help with Georgia voters. There are more than 50 Senate races that are being contested. We've got a lot of ground to cover and a lot of things to do. But I know that I've got his support.

And the reality is the resources that he has provided to the state are the reason we're in the position to do better. And that's something I am happy to tout. Would you like him on the trail? Certainly. Who would you, who would be your ideal person to bring to Georgia? I mean, I'd love, sorry, I'm about to make a comment about my own personal needs, but I'm open to everyone. This is about convincing people. You just said I'd love, I'd love who? Well, I was going to say Idris Elba, but that he's not a voter in the United States.

How about William Shatner? How about William Shatner? I'm good with my choices. Okay, Idris, it is. I'll stick with Idris. Does that change with Biden? Do you think he should run in 2024? Yes. If he doesn't run, would you? No. No, okay. I will be the governor of Georgia.

That will be my job. Okay. Speaking of running, what if you aren't the governor of Georgia? I refuse to consider that possibility. I'm running to win. Okay. Speaking of running, I'm still curious why possibility. I'm running to win. Okay. Speaking of running, I'm still curious why you didn't run for Senate in 2020. You really wanted to run for governor.

Governor. Explain that for people. Why? The governor is the most important job people don't understand. People talk about the presidency, which has national implications, and they talk about mayors, which have hyperlocal. But especially in the South, it is the governor that decides whether the resources sent by the federal government make it to local communities. It's the governor who decides the rights and privileges that we have. And with the Supreme Court, with Clarence Thomas making it his mission to dismantle most of the federal protections for the LGBTQ plus community, for women, it will be governors who decide. And I'm going to give one very quick example, I promise. The public accommodations law, 303 Creative, that case currently before the Supreme Court, would eviscerate protection based on sexual orientation for public accommodations, meaning

that you can be denied housing in a hotel. You can get kicked out of a bar. You can get kicked out of a restaurant. They don't have to provide you with service in a business you visit. Georgia is one of five states that does not have a public accommodations law. So if the federal law falls in Georgia, the governor will make the decision. And the current governor is opposed to same-sex marriage. He has supported religious freedom laws, which would basically echo this public accommodations law. Governors matter. And if we want democracy to continue,

we know there's already conversation in Georgia about shifting from a winner-take-all state with when it comes to the Electoral College and moving to a congressional district approach, which is what Maine and Nebraska do. Under that scenario, instead of winning 16 Electoral College votes in 2020 for Joe Biden, he would have only gotten six. All right. Our last question on this show is always asking our guests for some advice. Do you have any gotten six. All right. Our last question on this show is always asking our guests for some advice. Do you have any advice for Dr. Raphael Warnock, who I've interviewed, who is ahead of Walker, though not by much? I think that Senator Warnock is doing exactly what he needs to do. He is telling the people what he's done. And I look

forward to serving with him as his governor while he is my senator. Keep doing what you're doing, basically. So keep doing what you're doing, basically. So keep doing what you're doing, basically what you're saying. Anyway, Stacey Abrams, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Blake Neshek, Kristen Castro-Rossell, and Rafaela Seward. Rick Kwan engineered this episode.

Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, pat yourself on the back. If not, I'm shocked. I'm just shocked. Go wherever you listen to podcasts right now, search for On With Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On With Kara Swisher from New York Magazine and Vox Media and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.