Today, Explained - Pope friction

Episode Date: October 31, 2023

The Pope, his bishops, and some women walk into the Vatican. The National Catholic Reporter’s Joshua McElwee explains what happens next. This episode was produced by Isabel Angell, edited by Matt Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Patrick Boyd, and hosted by Noel King. Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained Support Today, Explained by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

People are leaving the Catholic Church. Its very old traditions clash with modern life. It's been plagued by abuse scandals. Its most accessible emissary of the past decade was the hot priest from Fleabag. I love you. It'll pass. To address this problem, its second most accessible emissary, Cool Pope, Pope Francis, called a month-long summit in Rome to talk about

how the church moves forward, modernizes even. The Catholic Church has held these meetings, or synods, before. But this year, for the first time ever, it wasn't just Catholic clergy voting. There were laypeople, or in lay people terms, regular people. They discussed big things. Can priests get married? Can women be priests? Where does the church stand on LGBTQ people? The post-Synod lowdown, coming up on Today Explained. The all-new FanDuel Sportsbook and Casino is bringing you more action than ever.

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Explicationi Hodi Ernai, Auskultas. You're listening to Today Explained. Josh, go ahead, give me your full name and tell me what you do. I'm Joshua McElwee. I'm the news editor for the National Catholic Reporter. I was previously our Vatican correspondent for eight years, and I'm here in Rome covering Pope Francis' Synod of Bishops. The Synod of Bishops is a big summit. There were around 450 delegates, all convened by the Pope with the express purpose of answering some questions about what the Catholic Church should be and what the Catholic Church should do. Some of these issues have included women's inclusion in church ministry or the possibility of even being ordained as deacons or priests,

as well as better inclusion of LGBTQ Catholics who have felt left out or marginalized by the church. We've been able to interview people in the room, in the hall. We've heard about the discussions about how they're a little different than how these summits, which are formerly known as a synod of bishops, have been held in the past. Instead of stadium-style seating, where the Pope kind of sits at the front and everyone is in a stadium listening to him or the Cardinal speaking at the moment, they've held the meeting at round tables. So each of the 450 members have been at round tables of 12 or 13 persons. The focus has been on small group

discussions, on kind of listening to one another, and having a more open and dialogical tone. So, what we've heard from members is it's quite different than previous synods where everyone kind of just talked and spoke, and you'd hear eight or nine minute speeches from cardinals. This time around, they're giving faith sharing, moving testimonies from lay people. And some of the people in the room who at the end of the event a couple days ago asked the Pope to sign his permission slip for being away from college for so long. For the first time in the Synod of Bishops especially, there were 54 women who were appointed as full voting members of the Synod at an equal level with the bishops and priests in the

room, given full membership, given the ability to vote on the final document. This is the way it should be, really. And it should have happened a long time ago. I was at the Synod in 1998, and I remember talking about women. And in a way, it's sort of, well, I should say sad almost, because, you know, what I said almost 30 years ago still is a message to the church. So now I think that we are becoming normal as a human institution. Let me start with something really basic. What is a synod? So a synod is an institution created in 1965 after the end of the Second Vatican Council,

which was this enormous meeting that kind of set the tone for reform in the Catholic Church in the 1960s. The historic Ecumenical Council, Vatican II, comes to a close amid colorful pomp and pageantry. Considered one of the most important councils in Catholic Church history, Vatican II saw 2,400 bishops and other prelates revise many aspects of Church activity. And the idea was, out of this enormous meeting, which set reforms such as no longer having the celebration of the Mass only in Latin, but also in languages across the world. The idea was the bishops at that council, that event in the 60s, wanted to keep this method of dialogue open. So they created this new

institution called the Synod, which essentially is an assembly of bishops in Rome that would happen from time to time as the Pope decided to call an assembly. But what Pope Francis has called now was a synod basically on the institution itself and how to make it more open. The word synod itself is a Greek word that means journeying together. So how to create a church where everyone feels they are journeying together and talking about issues, even big issues that maybe have felt off the table for a long time. Beth Dombkowski Okay, so there was a lot on the table here,

and over the past month, you've been talking to people who participated. What stood out to them? What moments did they tell you about that were important to them? Dr. Michael Smith I think the most moving thing that occurred this month might have been something outside the Synod, and that was a Catholic sister from the U.S. Her name is Sister Janine Gramick, who has been, for five decades, a minister to LGBTQ Catholics in the U.S., had a meeting with Pope Francis. She met with Pope Francis for about 50 minutes with her group, New Ways Ministry. Well, we met in a parlor, and there were chairs arranged in a kind of a circle, but then I pulled my chair closer to his

because I didn't like that arrangement. I mean, it was a fine arrangement, but not close enough. And then we just began to chat. And what's quite extraordinary about this is that under previous papacies, under John Paul II and Benedict XVI, Sister Gramic was really threatened. She was asked to stop her work, was told that she could no longer minister with LGBTQ Catholics,

and there was really a sense of, that's it, no more. And now Pope Francis invited Sister Janine and her staff members to come to Rome. I think it's God's working in the church and in the world that God is saying we need to get back to the spirit of Vatican II. And for too long, we have been having that fortress mentality of going backward. But I think Pope Francis is trying to get us to move forward, to look, to open our eyes and look to the future and to the changes in the world. The sense of joy and just credibility at this encounter was really moving. And obviously for this, she's 80-something years old, she's coming toward the

end of her life, and this was a really important moment for her to have this moment of reconciliation and of recognition even by the Pope. Before we left, Pope Francis gave us some gifts, a beautiful set of rosaries.

I got a beautiful medallion with the Blessed Mother and the infant. Right, it's just lovely. So I got teased by some of my co-workers because, you know, I said, I'm getting old, so I don't like to get things. I'm giving things away. I don't want people to have to do a lot of work after I'm gone. So they said, who are you going to give these to? I said, no one. These are for me.

They're going to get buried with me. Okay, so among the big issues were two that a lot of people were very curious about. Would the church change its position on LGBTQ people, and could women someday become priests? So start there. Did anyone tell you anything about the discussion around the ordination of women? Yeah, so we spoke to many of the members who took part in the event. For example, we spoke to an Australian bishop named Shane McKinley, who was on the final document drafting committee for the event. He said openly that the discussion had happened. The question of the ordination of women is

clearly something that needs to be addressed universally. And if it were to be that the outcome was for ordination to the diaconate to be open to women, I'd certainly welcome that. Okay, interesting. And we're also talking about the Catholic Church's position on LGBTQ people and whether it will change. What does that mean? What is the Church's current position on LGBTQ people? So the issue at play is more about inclusion and welcoming of LGBTQ persons. The Catholic Church's clear teaching is that all persons, LGBTQ persons, all persons have human dignity, deserve respect, church teaching does not allow for gay relationships or gay sexual intimacy. So the question commonly at play at the moment in the Catholic Church is whether the church could bless same-sex couples. Obviously, the Catholic Church's teaching remains that marriage is a sacrament between a man and a woman, but there are bishops, even I think some cardinals, envisioning a scenario where the church could say there is still something that can be said that is

holy or good about two same-sex individuals who have cared for one another and have had a long-term and stable relationship. Was there any tension at the summit? I mean, you have people who are sort of on the fringes, and I don't mean that as a pejorative, but people who are sort of on the edges of the traditional Catholic Church, and then you have some very traditional Catholic Church leaders. Was there any tension as people gave testimony? I think what we were hearing from the Synod was that one of the most tense discussions in the room was about the better inclusion of LGBTQ Catholics in the Church. My colleague Christopher White reported, I think,

last week during the Synod about some of those tensions. He was able to learn of an instance where a bishop was so frustrated with the discussions that he actually left the room. It wasn't clear for how long that bishop left, but obviously that's a big moment. There was at least a second instance of that happening. It wasn't clear to us on what issue that other bishop left the room, but certainly when you have cases where there are bishops in a synod of bishops with the pope present leading the discussion, deciding to leave the room, That indicates there's a bit of heated discussion or debate going on. The Synod is now over. What is the result here? What is the news coming out of

this summit? Yeah, so on Saturday, October 28th, the Synod released a final document that was voted on by the members. It's about a 41-page text. It's pretty dense, a little theological, but there are 81 proposals was no mention of LGBTQ or gay Catholics, just a mention of issues of sexuality that the church needed to look at. And although there was a substantial discussion about women's leadership in the church, including language about how the church has wounded women by sexist or chauvinist mentalities, it basically punted on the question of whether women could be ordained as deacons. It asked that two earlier papal commissions appointed by Pope Francis, that those reports from those commissions be made public, they're still kind of behind closed doors,

that those reports be made public before the next synod so that the next synod could better evaluate and make better decisions. So at the end of the day, some of the hot-button issues or the issues that most concerned a lot of U.S. Catholics were postponed or not even mentioned. That sounds like it must have been very disappointing for some of the people who showed up there, some of the people that you spoke to. What was the response when this document came out? I think disappointment is a fair word. Right now, I think a lot of people are waiting to see kind of

what happens in the next 11 months between this Synod Assembly and the one next October. We've had some interviews in recent days, including with a Jesuit priest from Africa named A.E. Orobator, who previously was the top Jesuit official in Africa and Madagascar, and he said to us on the Vatican briefing that he is reassured by the fact that nothing is off the table. I think the important thing to keep in mind, and this is very important certainly for me, is that we are not talking about a definitive text. We are talking about basically an attempt to invite further conversation. And therefore, even now, because this document is not a final document,

it says by that that no issue is finalized or closed. And so is that it? We just wait until the next synod next year? It's a bit unclear what happens in these 11 months between the two synods. We had an interview earlier today, actually, with two cardinals, Chicago's Cardinal Blaise Cupich

and San Diego's Cardinal Robert McElroy. Something they said clearly to us as a clear point of agreement was that now that lay people have been appointed as members of the Synod of Bishops, there is no going back. Cardinal McElroy said he thinks it is impossible to go back. That's an interesting point. Now that these Synods of Bishops in Rome might never again be only bishops, but also include basically all the legacy of Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the People's Pope, Papa Pancho, Lolo Kiko, Mona Lisa, the Pope of the Poor, Francis, man of many names and even more nicknames. Stay tuned. Support for today explained comes from Ramp. Ramp is the corporate card and spend management software designed to help you save time and put money back in your pocket. Ramp says they give finance teams unprecedented control and insight into company spend. Thank you. You can go to ramp.com slash explained, ramp.com slash explained, R-A-M-P.com slash explained.

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operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. To explain iGaming Ontario. Joshua McElwee, news editor for the National Catholic Reporter. Pope Francis has been Pope for 10 years. He is 86 years old. He struggled with some health problems throughout the years. Pope Francis today showing the world his health is improving, almost two months after he was hospitalized for bronchitis. The 86-year-old pontiff thankful the doctors caught the infection in the nick of time, saying had they waited even a few more hours, it would have been more serious. And I wonder whether he's using this synod, this summit,

to kind of lay the groundwork of a legacy that he hopes to leave behind. What do you think? I think it's quite fair to frame this Synod of Bishops as a legacy moment for Pope Francis. Pope Francis has tried to create a church that is more dialogical, more based on encounter, and more concerned with the modern needs of the world. And as part of this effort, he has hosted now five synods of bishops in Rome to discuss major issues. In this synod, the Pope has done more. He's put almost every issue you can imagine on the table. And so now, probably towards the end of his papacy, envisioning that he's 86 years old, turning 87 in December, he's made this major moment to discuss these issues, to raise them forward, and to see kind of what the Church can do.

And I think a lot of Catholics now will be wondering, toward the end of this papacy, will something concrete happen? Has anything concrete happened? Has he changed anything in his time as pope? And I understand, it's the Catholic Church, it's a hard thing to change, but has anything actually changed during his tenure? That's a hard question to answer because it's 10 years and there's a lot. I think some of the major changes you will see are on social issues. For example, in 2015, Pope Francis clearly embraced the scientific consensus on climate change.

Pope Francis has a message for the world, a call to action to reverse climate change. And while some are welcoming the Pope's opinion, certain skeptics are wishing he would just stay out of a highly controversial issue. Pope Francis also did raise up the possibility on a case-by-case basis that divorced and remarried Catholics could take communion in consultation with their pastor. On divorce, he says, it's an evil that's increasing and troubling. But he says the divorced are not excommunicated. It can no longer simply be said, according to Pope Francis, that all those in a quote-unquote irregular situation are living in a state of mortal sin. He's done a host of actions, especially on clergy sexual abuse,

appointing the first commission of its kind to advise the Pope on how the church should handle the issue. For the first time, Pope Francis is publicly addressing the biggest scandal facing the Catholic Church, clergy sex abuse. The Pope said, quote, I wish to express my compassion to ensure my closeness in prayer to every victim of sexual abuse and to their families. I ask you to continue to support them along the painful path of healing that they have undertaken with courage. So, I think a lot of what we have seen, although it doesn't get as much interest perhaps, is a Pope who has made significant changes, and there's a lot more, obviously, he is considering, but there's still a lot that

he has done in 10 years. Does what's happening here with the Catholic Church in Rome, does that affect the rest of the world or does it just affect Catholics? Well, the Catholic Church is an enormous global institution. There are 1.3 billion members. There's no just about it. It's an enormous institution. You think of all of those members, how many parishes, how many churches, how many schools, how many hospital institutions. It's a huge global entity with huge global reach. The Catholic Church also maintains diplomatic relations as a sovereign entity, as a state, with nations around the world where they exert influence. They have representatives at the

UN in New York and Geneva and in other places on different international levels. What the Catholic Church says has always mattered. I think what we've seen from Pope Francis is a desire to make the Catholic Church more relevant to global discussions. I think that's what we've seen in his effort to push church leaders on the issues of climate change, to talk about the different conflicts around the world. Pope Francis' frequent refrain is to talk about a third world war fought in pieces with all the different conflicts around the world, and also to influence current events in Israel, Palestineine and in the Ukraine-Russia war. Ceza il fuoco.

Fermatevi, fratelli e sorelle. La guerra sempre una sconfitta. Sempre, sempre. You know, it does seem like a more relevant church, and I say that as a non-Catholic, particularly the statements about climate change and about inclusion broadly. Do those reforms that we talked about, women clergy, inclusion of LGBTQ people, do those things actually have to happen in Francis's lifetime for them to be part of his legacy as Pope? I think maybe not, in that Francis has invited discussions that for many Catholics felt closed for maybe 50 or 60 years. I think largely after the Second Vatican Council, this large

reform meeting in the 1960s, there was a sense that the Church had really closed down. Pope Paul VI declared that Catholics could not use birth control. Pope John Paul II declared that there was no scenario in which the church could ordain women. And Pope Benedict XVI was largely seen as kind of a conservative or retrenchment figure. With Pope Francis, what we've seen is someone who likes to get in the midst of it. Early in his papacy, he said he wanted a church that was bruised and in the streets, and he preferred that over a church that was locked up in its cathedrals. And so, I think what we've seen from Francis is a church that is active, is relevant,

is interesting, can create headlines, and things can happen that are surprising. And I think largely that was kind of lost, especially over the past 20, the Lamb of God. Joshua McElwee of the National Catholic Reporter. Today's episode was produced by Isabel, and here, I am not kidding, Angel. It was edited by Matthew Collette. Laura Bullard is our fact checker. St. Patrick of Boyd is our engineer.

I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. See you Sunday? I'm joking, you're never ever allowed in my church again.