Today, Explained - Rudolph the former mayor

Episode Date: December 9, 2019

How Rudy Giuliani went from "America's mayor" to the inadvertent architect of Donald Trump's pending impeachment. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to a new week of shows from Today Explained. It's Monday, December 9th, which means we've got five episodes coming at you really soon. But first, a message from the sponsor of today's show, KiwiCo. They've got a website, kiwico.com slash explained, K-I-W-I-C-O. And at that website, you can redeem the offer to try KiwiCo out for one month for free. The House Judiciary Committee heard evidence presented by Democratic and Republican lawyers today in advance of presenting its articles of impeachment. A lot of the evidence has to do with the president's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani. The president might be the reluctant star of this impeachment shitshow, but none of this would have been possible were it not for Rudy Giuliani whispering Ukraine conspiracies in the president's ear. We've talked plenty about the actions Rudy took to bring President Trump to the brink of impeachment,

but today we're going to explain how exactly Rudy ended up in this mess to begin with. And we asked Andrew Kurtzman to help. I'm a veteran political reporter. I wrote a book called Rudy Giuliani, Emperor of the City. And Simon & Schuster just assigned me to write a second book about Giuliani. I wonder why. Why would they want a second book about Rudy Giuliani right now? Well, I wrote the first book 19 years ago, and his story has become, if anything, more epic. If epic is not the first word that comes to mind when you think of Rudolph, the former mayor,

here's just a slice of what's on his plate right now. He might be the reason his own client, the 45th president of the United States, gets impeached, all while he himself may be facing criminal indictment, all while he's still chasing Ukraine conspiracies in Europe. There's rumors that he's going to make a podcast about impeachment, a documentary about what really happened in Europe. There's rumors that he's going to make a podcast about impeachment, a documentary about what really happened in Ukraine. And this is all while he's undergoing a divorce. Not the one from his cousin. It was his second cousin. Not the one from his second wife. It seemed to the public for a while, at least, like it was a very, very happy marriage, until the rumor started that he was carrying on

one affair and then a second. This was the one he broke up with via press conference. For quite some time, it's probably been apparent that Donner and I lead many ways independent and separate lives. And I'm hopeful that we'll be able to formalize that. Today's turn of events brings me great sadness. I had hoped to keep this marriage together. And where does he go after Donna? I would like to introduce my wife, Mrs. Giuliani. Judith Nathan. And he met her somewhere in his second term.

Their Gracie Mansion wedding guests included Donald and Melania Trump and Henry Kissinger. It's going to be a great marriage. And how'd that work out? It's divorce number three for Rudy Giuliani, New York City's former mayor. Well, he's in divorce court right now. And at a hearing today, it became clear that things are taking a nasty turn. It's continuing and things can get worse before they get better. With estranged wife Judy Nathan claiming Giuliani is playing poor while lavishing spending money on a new girlfriend that should be coming to her.

Okay, now that we got that all out of the way, Rudy's epic story begins in New York City in 1944. Giuliani created a biography of his childhood that turned out to be not completely true. He was raised in Brooklyn, and he had told the press that his father worked at a bar. And he had said that he owned the bar when it took the investigative reporter, Wayne Barrett, to unearth the fact that his father actually worked for a loan shark and was a criminal who spent time in Sing Sing. When does he become a public figure? Before I got involved in this politics stuff, I was a lawyer. to the Justice Department under Reagan, and then took over the U.S. Attorney's Office

in the early 1980s. And he became probably the most celebrated U.S. attorney in modern times. He was the Eliot Ness of that decade and was a front page figure for years and years because of his unapologetic, fearless efforts to decapitate the mafia. I mean, this was a guy who invented the perp walk just to kind of humiliate the people that he had indicted or had arrested. And, you know, his reputation took a hit a little towards the end of his tenure at the U.S. Attorney's Office, where he was accused of being overzealous. A lot of his cases were overturned, and people began to see him in a different light, someone

who was ruthless to the extreme. And he parlays that reputation and all that attention into a run for mayor of New York City? The attention certainly fueled his efforts. And in 1989, he used his crime fighting achievements as the basis for his race. I mean, New York City in the late 1980s was really a mess. I mean, crime was rampant. There was just a sense that order was deteriorating on the streets of New York. And so what better platform would there be than a crime fighter, someone who could take control of the place? So how's his first run at mayor go?

It went badly. He ran against David Dinkins, who was shooting to become the first African-American mayor. And Giuliani was undisciplined. He was unprepared. And it showed his lack of experience as a politician. And he didn't take that loss very well, right? He basically continued his fight against Dinkins even once the race was over and especially exacerbated Dinkins' relationship with the NYPD. Dinkins was hated by the police and the police union. He was seen as anti-cop and it all

came to a head during a police rally against Dinkins during the 93 race that really turned into a police riot. We must go! We must go! We must go! And Giuliani kind of stood, I think, on a flatbed truck and screamed. The reason the morale of the police department of the city of New York is so low is one reason and one reason alone. David Jenkins! And the images were harrowing of this kind of hothead urging on a mob. And I mean, it's impossible to not see the racial undertones of this conflict, right? This mostly white police force being led by a white New Yorker sort of protesting the first ever black mayor of the city.

I agree with that. I mean, the racial undertones in the entire race were obvious. Giuliani's campaign slogan was one standard for one city. And the message was that Dinkins was just favoring black people. You know, there was racial friction in New York City, and he capitalized on that. American cities can survive as we know them if they remain so violent. How did the one standard go into effect once Giuliani wins the mayoralty in 1993? There was huge tension between Giuliani and the black community during his mayoralty. The police force was historically seen as an independent entity by mayors. It didn't work that way with Giuliani at all. Giuliani used the police

as kind of his army. And the crackdown on crime, first of all, was enormously successful, but a lot of it came on the backs of the civil liberties of black New Yorkers. He began the practice of stop and frisk, in which just a legion of young black men in poor neighborhoods were patted down, sometimes thrown down to the ground, you know, by police who had, you know, scant evidence of criminality. It was harsh. The civil liberties were being violated, but it was very, very effective. I should mention that crime trended downwards across the country in the 90s, but certainly eased dramatically in New York City. But with that came this extremely fraught relationship between the NYPD and the black community in the city.

Absolutely. There was so much rage within the black community. There are instances which just kind of symbolized his treatment of the community that triggered an uproar. So there was the case of Amadou Diallo, who is a mild-mannered immigrant. Police had been searching for someone who had committed some type of crime. I don't quite remember. They saw Diallo hovering around the entrance to an apartment building, which turned out to be his own apartment building. They told him to stop, and Diallo reached for his wallet, and the police thought he was reaching for a gun, and they shot and killed him. And it sparked just massive, massive rallies against Giuliani, who was probably the closest Giuliani came to losing control of the mayoralty. Giuliani have to step down. Enough is enough. Giuliani, you don't have no heart.

Mayor Giuliani is bad medicine for black people. Mayor Giuliani is bad medicine for Latinos, whites, poor, rich. Mayor Giuliani is bad medicine for everyone. A swarm of celebrities were arrested for protesting Giuliani's tactics. You know, Dinkins himself was arrested. Charlie Rangel, a congressman, movie stars. It was just a very effective kind of revolt against Giuliani. Bruce Springsteen himself wrote a song about this incident, right? Yeah, he wrote a song called 41 Shots, which was the number of bullets that police fired at Amadou Diallo.

Is it a gun? Is it a knife? Is it a wallet? This is your life It ain't no secret It ain't no secret. It ain't no secret. No secret, my friend. You can get killed just for living in your American skin. But none of that stuff really stuck to him because he was about to become what some people still call him, right? America's mayor.

This just in, you were looking at obviously a very disturbing live shot there. That is the World Trade Center, and we have unconfirmed reports this morning that a plane has crashed into one of the towers of the World Trade Center. I called into my newsroom. I was a television reporter at the time. My news director told me to go find Giuliani. And by sheer luck, I found him. And he kind of waved me over as we were walking north, away from the towers which were smoking.

And one of the towers imploded right behind us. And, you know, we ran for our lives. It was just a whole bunch of us covered in dust trying to find some semblance of order. And I mean, it was a really frightening moment. You know, I watched Giuliani very closely. I was standing next to him and he was kind of the calmest one in the bunch. I'm here on behalf of a very grateful and very admiring city to tell each and every one of you how proud we are of you and saying how proud we are of the innocent men and women who were going about their lives, seeking their part of the American dream when

their lives were cut short by the act of cowardly terrorists. And how proud we are of all of you who have come here to rescue them and return as many of them as we can to their loved ones. Even his tone changed. I mean, this kind of bombastic, hot-tempered mayor kind of changed overnight, and its tone became soothing. And it was an extraordinary display of leadership. And at the same time, the president was incommunicado. We're going to take airplanes when we're supposed to for business or pleasure. We're going to go to public events, and we're going to do the things that we normally would do. The best way to get your children to stop being afraid

is to stop being afraid yourself. Giuliani became kind of the father figure and it was a very, very refreshing thing and he became a beloved figure really across the world. America's mayor. He's the mayor of New York City. Ladies and gentlemen, Rudy Giuliani. For years after 9-11, I mean, the man could not walk into a restaurant without getting a standing ovation. You know, he was knighted by the Queen of England. He was Times Person of the Year. He could walk on water in the eyes of the public. But then he had to give up the mayoralty, like what, a few months later? Yes, he was due to leave office at the end of that year. And he made this disastrous power grab to try to convince the public and the candidates for election at the time to let him stay on for a few months.

And it was kind of a classic Giuliani over-the-top measure that went down in flames. It was, I guess, the first glimpse of the beginning of the end of Giuliani's heroic stature. I've been talking to Michael from Toronto, Canada on the show. He's a retired grandfather whose daughter Jillian went to KiwiCo.com slash explain and picked him up a subscription of KiwiCo crates for adults. And we talked about his pinball machine and his coin sorter. But I did not ask him why his daughter opted to get him a KiwiCoat crate over her kids, his grandkids. My background is architecture, construction, and it really, Jillian probably saw that when

she, you know, listened to your podcast, that these kinds of things are the kinds of things her dad would find intriguing because they've been thought out so well and are easy for people to deal with, put together. The other thing is on both of these things, and I haven't got to that stage, you construct them and then afterwards you can modify them. They sort of lead you into, you know, on the pinball machine, you can make it a little more complicated. On the coin machine, they actually show you how, and I guess this would get back to the kids, how you could actually do your own sorting device on a flat piece of cardboard if you wanted to give it a try.

So you don't open up the crate and build it and forget about it. There's other opportunities to play around with it. So we'll see what happens with the third box. Well, when you get it, I might have to call you back to find out how it went

because it was such a pleasure speaking with you. Thanks very much, Sean. Thank you very much for allowing me to share it with you. Oh, my pleasure. Okay, right on. Bye.

Andrew, how does Rudy Giuliani go from the guy who gets a standing O every time he enters a restaurant to Donald Trump's lackey? He wagered everything on his race for president in 2008. And it was a disaster. I mean, he was as unprepared for that race as he was in the 89 race for mayor. He seemed to be improvising. And he lost his 9-11 halo. And it was a difficult moment for him. One day he wakes up and he's no longer the most beloved person on the planet. He's just another politician.

And his trajectory just went rightward. And, you know, I joke that he took up residence at Fox News. He wasn't really in demand much elsewhere. ISIS is filling a vacuum created by a vacuous foreign policy. I, the president said... This is an Obama, ISIS is an Obama creation. I mean, you have to remember that there was a long period after that 2008 presidential run where he was kind of in the wilderness. And, you know, the one source of kind of support was the right wing.

When you say Black Lives Matter, that's inherently racist. That's anti-American and it's racist. And the other thing going on at the same time was kind of a sea change in his view towards money. He was always much more focused on power than money. But that changed along the way. He was really focused on his business. He was doing increasing business with, you know, right-wing dictators around the world. Fast forward to today, I mean, the man owns six houses. He has 11 country club memberships. What do you do with 11 country club memberships? I don't know. Go ask Rudy Giuliani.

We'll reach out to him. When exactly does this quintessential New Yorker link up with another quintessential New Yorker? Giuliani and Donald Trump always had a passing admiration for one another. They didn't spend a lot of time together, but there was this famous video that was shown at the Inner Circle, which was kind of the New York equivalent of the Gridiron Club, the skit. You know, you're really beautiful. Giuliani appeared in drag. A woman that looks like that has to have her own special scent. Oh, thank you. Maybe, maybe you could tell me what you think of this scent. And created a video of himself and Donald Trump shopping at a department store and kind of vamping around with Giuliani dressed in drag.

I remember this video. Trump tries to kiss him and like shoves his face into Rudy's fake bosom. Oh, you dirty boy. Oh, Donald, I thought you were a gentleman. You can't say I didn't try. I mean, you could see two people who clearly were on the same wavelength and they needed each other. I mean, Giuliani's phone was not ringing from a lot of the other Republican candidates. And Donald Trump reached out to him. And on the other side of the token is that Trump did not come from a political world, did not have a lot of contacts in politics. And Giuliani was obviously an iconic Republican, and he was very helpful to Trump.

This is a man with a big heart who loves people. I am telling you this because I am sick and tired of the defamation of Donald Trump by the media and by the Clinton campaign. I am sick and tired of it. This is a good man. The relationship deepened, you know, very quickly. Giuliani, you know, stood by Trump during the Access Hollywood episode and displayed a lot of loyalty. And I think, you know, what you see today is that Trump has stuck by Giuliani long past the time where he would have with anyone else. And, you know, Trump is not a particularly loyal man. I mean, this is a very, very deep relationship at this point. And of course, this very loyal, very strong and deep relationship eventually gets

both of these people in a whole heap of trouble. Yeah. You know, it was during the Mueller investigation that Giuliani came aboard as Trump's personal attorney. And, you know, Giuliani at the time told the press that he only planned to stick around for a few weeks. And, you know, I thought to myself, that is never going to happen. Giuliani is not going to go away in a few weeks. And Giuliani could have served a very important role as kind of restraining Trump's worst impulses. And instead, he chose the opposite path. He threw gasoline on the fire and encouraged Trump's paranoid view of what had happened in his race against Hillary

Clinton. And it's turned out to be a disastrous situation where Giuliani is now on the brink of indictment for his actions in Ukraine. Good afternoon. I'm Jeff Berman, United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York. Today, we unseal an indictment charging Lev Parnas, Igor Fruman, and two co-defendants.

Charged with conspiring to make illegal campaign donations and lying to federal election regulators. This investigation is about corrupt behavior, deliberate law-breaking. And these are two associates who were effectively Rudy's boots on the ground in Ukraine. So Rudy Giuliani has got to be nervous. And listen, there's more. Those men, Igor Fruman and Lev Parnas, were picked up at Dulles on Wednesday night, just hours after the Wall Street Journal reports they had lunch with Rudy Giuliani.

And the president is on the verge of impeachment. Just how far did the president's personal lawyer go to undermine America's normal diplomatic channels with Ukraine? I do not understand Mr. Giuliani's motives for attacking me, nor can I offer an opinion on whether he believed the allegations he spread about me. If we wanted to get anything done with Ukraine, it was apparent to us we needed to talk to Rudy. Right. You understood that Mr. Giuliani spoke for the president, correct? That's correct. And Ambassador Bolton said

that Rudy Giuliani was a hand grenade that was going to blow everyone up. And that he was clearly pushing forward issues and ideas that would probably come back to haunt us. And in fact, I think that that's where we are today. And he has Giuliani to thank for a lot of this.

I mean, I think he revved Trump up on this whole notion that it was Ukraine and not Russia that had conspired against him in the race against Clinton. You were standing next to him on 9-11. You were running up lower Manhattan with him as the city came undone. And you saw an inspiring leader. You saw someone who rose to the occasion in an unimaginable moment for the city, the country, the entire planet. How did he go from there to here? I mean, he was always hot-tempered. He always went for the juggler.

But when he was mayor, he always focused his bombast in a disciplined way. He picked a target, and he went nuclear. That's not really the case now. I mean, he's disinhibited. He's kind of lashing out. I can't tell you why exactly. I don't know what's driving it, but he's lost a lot of that discipline. I mean, Giuliani is being investigated and could be prosecuted by the same U.S. Attorney's Office that he once led. I mean, it's an

absolutely kind of Shakespearean situation. I mean, one of the reasons it got me interested in writing about him again, I mean, the story is just beyond epic. And if he had just gone off after being New York's mayor and presiding over 9-11 and become a professor or an author or an occasional commentator, he would have, you know, some sort of legendary legacy in American politics. Do you think he sees that as someone who's hung out with him, as someone who knows him? No, I think that he sees himself as right and others as wrong. And that's been kind of a hallmark of his personality since the early days.

He believes he's always on the side of justice and right. I don't believe for a moment that he feels he's doing anything but the right thing. And he always has in all of his kind of dramas. Andrew Kurtzman is working on his second book about Rudy Giuliani. The first one's called Rudy Giuliani, Emperor of the City. I reached out to the emperor to ask what one does with 11 country club memberships, but he hasn't gotten back to me yet. I'm Sean Ramos-Ferrum. This is Today Explained be a part of your day today. And thank you to KiwiCo for supporting the program today.

KiwiCo is offering you the chance to try their projects for kids, for adults, for grandparents, out for free. The website to redeem the offer, one month free KiwiCo, KiwiCo.com slash explained.