Today, Explained - So I elected an autocrat

Episode Date: May 19, 2022

Noel King traveled to Hungary to talk to people who voted for Viktor Orbán, people being persecuted by his government, and an American just along for the ride. This episode was produced by Miles Bryan, edited by Jolie Myers and Matt Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Efim Shapiro, and hosted by Noel King. Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained Support Today, Explained by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today explained Ramaswamy. Yesterday, Noelle, you told us how Hungary became a democracy and then kind of democratically, at least, fell apart. You are still in Budapest. What are you going to tell us today? I'm telling you the weirdest thing, which is that Budapest feels a lot like the United States. Huh. yeah, there's no secret police following me. My phone is not being tapped. This does not feel like authoritarianism to me. So the question is, if as an outsider, I'm not noticing anything anti-democratic, but I know that the country is moving away from democracy, how much do Hungarians notice what's going on? And how much do they blame or credit

their prime minister, Viktor Orban, who's the guy who's really behind these anti-democratic movements. And you're going to ask some Hungarians? So many Hungarians. I'm excited. Nice. Me too. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings.

Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. It's Today Explained, I'm Noelle King. Yes, yes, I have 21. This is a Hungarian song. Here's what's going on while we're waiting out in the street in downtown Budapest to be let into a lovely old apartment building. Our fixer, Mate Halmos, told us about this couple named Tibor and Erzsebet Horvat. In liberal Budapest, Mate told us, you will not find a lot of pro-Orban

people or people who support his party, Fidesz, because of the whole authoritarian-ish thing. But these two like Orban. They're from outside of Budapest originally. She came from the east. I came from the west. And now we have met here 45 years ago. And it was a love at first sight. And we are eager to love one another since that time. Does she agree it was love at first sight? She says they get along well. Tibor is in his late 60s. He's a retired telecom engineer. Erzsébet is in her early 70s.

She's a retired dental assistant who lights up like a kissling chandelier when you say the name Viktor Orban. Can we ask her what is so nice about Viktor Orbán? Why does she like him and he does so much? He stands up for the interests of the Hungarians all the time. He does everything so that we can stay out of the war and we can live peacefully, because peace is the most important thing. Orbán was just re-elected, and one of his campaign promises

was to stay out of Vladimir Putin's war in Ukraine. Now, Hungary is a member of NATO, and Orbán is chummy with Putin, so he wasn't ever going to get involved in this war. But truthiness, it worked. He's ten times more clever than anybody in the left-wing parties. He's been a star since he was born, I think. He was born at a secondary school, in the university, and so on. So he's a talented politician, a born politician.

Who would you compare him to? Is there a politician like him in the United States? Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan. Aha. I know that the American people consider him the best president ever. And we consider Mr. Orban the best president ever.

Tibor knows that Orban is not a saint. Hungary has a lot of economic corruption. Some guys get rich. They get good government contracts because they're connected to Fidesz. It bugs him. So he decided to address it with the man himself. Four years ago, I sent a letter to the secretary of the prime minister. Oh.

With two points. One point was, I can appreciate your efforts to stop the big migration at the Hungarian border. Congratulations. He's happy that Orban built a fence along the southern border to keep out migrants from places like Syria and Afghanistan. And the second point was that the corruption is higher and higher. And I've got an answer within two weeks. Thank you for the congratulation.

The congratulations got a thank you note. The criticism went unanswered. Let's talk about democracy and Viktor Orban. I think many people who are critical of Prime Minister Orban, they think he has too much control. Control over judiciary, control over the media, control over the economy, and they say that's not what democracy is. That's something different. You are right. I like the left-wing people to criticize Orban and sometimes I do the same because I know that the corruption rate is very high in Hungary during Orban as well. And I know that Orban himself is a part of the corruption, of course. You know that? Yeah, I know it. So, Orbán has all the power.

His propaganda machine is staggeringly efficient. He doesn't answer to critics, but he'll take a compliment. He set it up so he can't lose an election. Is this not reminding you of something? I have a question for your wife. But tell her that I'm an American, and if I sound ignorant, I don't mean to.

Communists in Hungary had so much power over the political system, the media, the civic institutions, but now people say Viktor Orban has all the power a média, a cívikus institúciók, de most az emberek azt mondják, hogy Viktor Orbán minden rendet használ a média, a cívikus institúciók, a különbség.

Milyen lehet Viktor Orbán a kommunista különbségével? Hát az ötvenes években, hát ez borzasztó volt. Borzasztó. A fiftesekben ez nagyon rossz volt. Borzasztó. A 50-esekben ez túl kicsit kicsit. A kamerájukat lezárt a rendőrség. Halljanak, igen. A poliikák a szemüvegeiket kinyitották, hogy halják a halálra. Igen, hogy...

Lezárták a spájzotokat, hogy halljátok. Ja, hogy például a Rákosi időben a spájz, ahol volt a liszt meg a cukor, minden ennivaló. They sealed the pantry and they said that if any of the kids tamper with the seal, they would take the parents to prison. This was in their family home? What was going on here? In your family home, the communists? It's not fair, is what you're telling me. This is real democracy now. I didn't realize you had suffered so much.

And it's stupid to compare what's happening here today to what was happening back then. It was compulsory for you to give these kind of questions. Every day in the press and the media, the electronic media, you meet the situation that it's communism, it's communism, it's fascism, it's Goering and so on. Lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies. He's saying the Western media paints Orban as a fascist. But imagine writing a letter to Joseph Stalin or to Vladimir Putin. Dear sir, you've done some good things. You've done some bad things. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get a nice letter back. So if communism in Hungary was some jackbooted dirt bags burst into your house and say, your property is not your property anymore. It's not your food. Those are not your clothes. Also, don't you dare talk openly about us or criticize us,

or we'll throw you in prison or worse. Well, what's going on today is not communism, but it's also not the straight democracy that replaced communism in the 90s. So then what is Orbanism? Zabos Tolt, or Zabi, is not into politics. He's a volunteer host of a radio show about Indian classical music. He's a Buddhist, he teaches sitar for a living,

he canoes. Many of us know at least one Zabi. Your outfit would suggest. Are you a marathon runner? Yes, yes. I run here and I run back when I finish everything. So. Are you serious? What? You'll run home? Yeah, yeah, of course. Zabi has been on the receiving end of Orbanism. Check this. The government has a quota system. Community radio stations have to provide 50% Hungarian music and 50% international music. Wait, what? The government gets to tell you how much Hungarian music you have to play? Yeah.

And it's a small country. We don't have that much good music. What do you play? And it's a small country. We don't have that much good music. What do you play? Do you like search the streets for like punk bands? Can you imagine my Indian classical radio show? What to do? I started playing with the names.

Like instead of Ravi Shankar, I said Ravi Shandor. No, you didn't. You made Ravi Shankar a Hungarian? Oh my God, don't tell me things like that on tape. I'm worried for you. Coming up, Zabi explains the grotesque absurdity of the Hungarian media laws and what it feels like to butt heads with bureaucracy and lose. Plus, an Orban-curious American in Budapest. Thank you. Our AuraFrames make it easy to share unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame. When you give an AuraFrame as a gift, you can personalize it. You can preload it with a thoughtful message, maybe your favorite photos.

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Our show is called Today Explained and sometimes in the middle, someone sings, Today, today explained, it's today explained. Would you mind singing that in Hungarian? It's Today Explained from Budapest. I'm Noelle King. Okay, back to Zabi at the radio station. He's been volunteering in community radio for 30 years, and the station itself might as well be in Berkeley. There are kitchen shelves crammed with coffee mugs that don't belong to anyone in particular.

There are awards for public service, trash cleanup, in a glass case. So we were the most successful trash collecting team on River Tisza. Why is a radio station collecting trash? Because there are so many trash on Tisza. The station is called Tilos Radio. What does Tilos mean? Forbidden. Forbidden. Forbidden, but it was, I kind of wanted to have a tasty, tasty name for the radio station.

At that time, it was not forbidden. I mean, there was no media law at all. The name was ironic. Communism was newly out. Free media was newly in. Fidesz, Orbán's party, was radical chic. When we started this radio station in 1991, people said that, oh, we are surely the radio station of the Fidesz.

Because at that time, Fidesz was a young and liberal party. And you were the kids. You were the community radio kids. So everybody thought that you were... I see. Were you Fidesz supporters? No, no, no, no. That's a basic thing. We don't get, for example, support and any money. We don't accept any money from parties, political parties and companies. Did you think Viktor Orban was cool, though?

Actually, there was one... I'm not sure if I can remember exactly the quote, but once he said in 1992 that it's a very cool thing and it must have to have something like that in Hungary. Tilos! And it was about Tilos. Over the course of about 30 years, Tilos Radio grew from a small operation to include hundreds of volunteers in a building that used to be the old state coin mintage. Tilos isn't a news station, but it has news bulletins and talk shows about current affairs.

And once upon a time, there were many Tilos. At that time in 2020, when the Fidesz came in power, there were 68 community radio stations in Hungary. Like this one. It just volunteers, people doing shows that interested them, Little Kitchen, everybody shares mugs. There were 67 of them? Yeah. No, 68. 68.

68. And they banned, actually they closed 67 out of them. You're the last one? As far as I know, yes. From 68 or so to one. A thing that Viktor Orban and Fidesz have done remarkably well is capture the free press. Their media law would make Kafka blush.

It's 150-plus pages of tiny font that controls everything from who gets to be on TV and radio to whether you can show minors drinking alcohol. You cannot. Tilos regularly has to renew its FM radio license. And the Fidesz-controlled Media Council, which enforces the Fidesz written media law, recently turned them down. It's a minefield, so you cannot do everything right there. For example, we have to provide sometimes a week-long program transcripted seconds by seconds. And we don't have anyone who can do that because our station is based on live music. The government says Tilos is losing its FM signal for using inappropriate language four times since 2015.

The station also allegedly failed to provide data to regulators twice and had two irregularities in its reports. If all of that sounds very vague, yes, that would be the point. Now, there's an argument I've heard many times in Hungary from people who like Viktor Orban, that this is not a big deal. A bunch of neo-hippies can't get their little radio shows on the airwaves? Who really cares? You're not particularly political, but can you explain for somebody who might be skeptical, like, why does a little community radio station matter? What is the bigger thing that's going on here? To have everything.

I mean, the government wants to have everything. And this is part of everything. It's pettiness, it's control, it's suspicion, it's fines for breaking rules that can't be followed. It's everything. And yet, let's remember what brought us to Budapest. American conservatives are holding CPAC here. What exactly about these circumstances would appeal to freedom-loving, bureaucracy-hating, small-government, no-bullshit Americans? It was time to ask an American.

I can tell you're from upstate New York by looking at you. Does that sound crazy? No. Chris Belluzzi grew up two towns over from me. He's wearing reflective sunglasses, khaki shorts, a sandlot t-shirt. We're in a suburb of Budapest, but Chris improbably is living the American dream. He's only 30, but he has two gorgeous kids. His wife's family lives just down the street. He has a small but pristine house and his mortgage is exactly zero. We bought this house for nine and a half

million for it. Yeah, so that's 30 grand. High five me. Chris's politics are a little all over the place. He's pro-gay rights, pro-abortion rights. He says he's a registered Democrat, but he's totally meh about the Democratic Party. He doesn't like Trump or Biden, so he just didn't vote in the last election. I just couldn't feel good with either of the decisions. But that doesn't mean he's not paying attention to politics. In fact, he was watching the Hungarian election really carefully. What do you think now a days about Viktor Orban? Well, I think on the world stage, it's amazing what he's accomplished. I think he's a very successful man. I think that, you know, a country like Hungary with its population and its GDP, very tiny, but somehow his name's being brought up, You know, somehow he's got swing.

Somehow he's meeting with these big guys. So, you know, he's doing something right. And he just got elected with an overwhelming, you know, percentage. So he's doing something right. And I understand that a lot of that comes from his control over the media. So I do understand that a lot of that comes from his control over the media. So I do understand that. However, I'm not one of those people that is under his, you know, veil that doesn't, can't see objectively what's going on. It sounds like there's probably a not insignificant number of Hungarians who know exactly what Viktor Orban is all about.

And like you say, this guy is doing something right for the country, right? The country's doing well, the economy is doing well, the policies benefit us. The economy is not okay. Let's not say that he's like, like he's, he's killing it. What I'm saying is that he's done something for Hungary that I don't think any other guy would be able to do. Make it a player in the world? Yeah. So we were talking about Trump and Orban,

and I think you need to include Putin in this conversation if we're talking about autocrats. So I think that Trump is a wannabe Orban. Orban is a wannabe Putin. If you look at the level of autocracy, you go Trump, Orban, Putin. You're living very happily in a country where you're saying your belief is the prime minister wants to be like Vladimir Putin. Why does that not scare the hell out of you? You seem very happy here. I'm more scared of, as a father, I'm responsible for my children.

Until they're adults, it's my job to guide them, steer them. And if I look at who I think's going, personally for me, going to be the best person to help me pursue my vision of what I want to achieve, I think that right now Fidesz

would be better. Long term, I don't think that they should keep hold of this control. All of this makes sense, I suppose, but Viktor Orban has been prime minister since 2010. Long term, that's the whole point. And it's a very easy thing to miss, even if you're watching carefully. What I like about Fidesz is they have been able to set up a system that runs very well. It's a well-oiled machine. He gets shit done. Republicans get shit done, and sometimes they get shit done that you don't like,

but they do get shit done, and I feel like the other side will not get shit done. Victor Orban's ability to get things done in a not-very-democratic fashion appeals to a lot of American conservatives, too. They're here in Budapest for the conservative political action conference Hungary Drift. Coming up tomorrow, we try to get in to the conference that we have flown thousands of miles to cover.

But will Hungarian bureaucracy stop us? Our show today was produced by Miles Bryan. It was edited by Jolie Myers and Matthew Collette. It was engineered by Afim Shapiro, and it was fact-checked by Laura Bullard. The rest of the team today explained includes Halima Shah, Hadi Mawagdi, Avishai Artsy, Victoria Chamberlain,

and our audio fellow, Tori Dominguez. Sean Ramosverm is my co-host. We are currently nine time zones away from each other. Hey, Sean. We had extra help this week from Matej Halmos. Our supervising producer is Amina El-Sadi. Vox's vice president of audio is Liz Kelly Nelson. We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder and Noam Hassenfeld,

and we're distributed to public radio stations across the United States in partnership with WNYC. I'm Noelle King. Today Explained is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Thank you.