Today, Explained - The $5,751 ice pack

Episode Date: May 4, 2018

Imagine a world where a Band-Aid costs $629. Bad news: you live in that world. Vox’s Sarah Kliff explains how American hospitals tack on “facility fees” to cover their expansive costs. Then, a Kentucky doctor gives us his perspective on those costs from inside the ER. To find out more about Sarah Kliff’s reporting on ER bills (or how to submit your own bill), head to erbills.vox.com. You can check out her podcast The Impact here.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

hello is this the mysterious breakmaster cylinder it might be wow what an honor hey this is uh this is sean romans from today explain who composed our theme music i did oh what an honor the sean romans firm the honors all ours wow hey quick question for you, Breakmaster. Sure. I hear you might have mattress problems. I do. How, however did you know that? We G-chat. Oh yeah, right. Sarah Cliff, Senior Policy Correspondent at Vox. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me back. You're working on this huge project right now, and it sounds really interesting. And I was wondering if you would share it with the listeners of our podcast.

In fall 2016, so about 18 months ago at this point, I got this email from a Vox reader who sent me a bill for his daughter's emergency room visit where they were charged $629 for a Band-Aid. A single Band-Aid. Yeah. Nothing special about the Band-Aid. No. And like it turns out, you can go to CVS and buy a whole box of Band-Aids for a lot less

than $629. I've heard this. The Band-Aid was only $7, which I would say like in any other context, the Band-Aid was only $7. It's an absurd sentence. Yeah. But the vast majority of that bill, the other $622, were something called a facility fee. You know, I'd been reporting on health care for seven years at that point. I'd never really heard of a facility fee.

I didn't know what it was. And it turns out it's this usually pretty big, pretty mysterious charge that shows up on all of the millions of ER visits that happen in America. And it's actually what makes going to the emergency room pretty expensive for a lot of people. I'm guessing this Band-Aid facility fee of like $629 is probably on the low end of a facility fee? It's actually a great question that unfortunately I would love to tell you the answer to. But one of the things you quickly learn looking into facility fees is that they are kept secret. It's actually really hard to find information about how much these things cost. That's what this whole reporting project I'm working on is all about. So what have you learned since launching the project?

Since launching the project, we've collected about 1,100 emergency room bills from Fox readers all across the country. And I'd say I've learned three things. One is that facility fees are basically on every single emergency room bill. There's always some line. It's sometimes called something different. But there's some fee for just going into the emergency room and seeking service. This is like the base price of going to the ER. The second is that these fees are really secret. You won't know what your fee is until you get that bill in the mail.

They're not posted somewhere in the emergency room. Most doctors I've talked to say, I could not tell you what the facility fee is in my hospital that I work at. So it's very hard to find out what these fees are. It's not like it's being tabulated there in the ER room. So probably months before you have an emergency room appointment, your insurance company and your hospital, they sat down and had this big negotiating meeting where they figured out, here's what we're going to pay for appendectomies and for Band-Aids, and here's the facility fee. So that's saying also that if you and your husband, for example, have different insurance, you might get two dramatically different bills? Totally.

That is 100% plausible. And maybe we got the exact same service. We might go into the emergency room and come out with two very different bills. And I think that them up and say, like, hey, what's yours? There's just such big variation between what different hospitals are charging for what I thought might be a relatively standard item. So in these thousands of stories you've come across, is there another Band-Aid story in there or something even more absurd? There are so many. One thing that stood out to me that I noticed about a half dozen cases of are people who don't get treated in the emergency room, but because they walk through the doors and

show up and say, hey, I'm sick, they end up with some pretty significant bills. So these are people who decide to leave either because they're feeling better or they find out it's going to be out of network. And then a while later, they get a medical bill for walking in the ER and leaving. There's one that really stood out to me, this woman from New Jersey named Jessica. My name is Jessica Powell. I live in Jersey City. This is what happens to Jessica. She goes to sleep, but the next day wakes up. It still hurts. She goes to the emergency room, and she keeps asking,

is this doctor I'm going to see in my network? She's really worried about the medical bills. Like, wait, wait, wait. Is this care going to be out of network? And she said, yes. And I said, okay, that's all I needed to know. I'm going to go find an in-network physician who can see me, you know, as soon as possible. Luckily, I was able to find somebody.

I was discharged. No actual care was given other than an ice pack and ace bandage to wrap the ice pack around my head. She leaves with her ice pack and her ace bandage, and that's the visit. I got a bill from them for $5,751, and that's just the facility fee. And her insurance company says, you know, we think this is too much. Her insurance company pays, I think, $862 to the hospital for this encounter. The hospital then, after about a year, starts sending her bills.

$4,989. That was the remaining amount that the hospital said that I owed. That's the point at which she got in touch with me about this story. Sarah did contact the hospital asking about this bill. The hospital declined to comment to me about the bill. They declined to comment to me about how they set their rates. But oddly enough, a few hours later, this was resolved. Hospital declined to comment to me about the bill. They declined to comment to me about how they set their rates. But oddly enough, a few hours later, this was resolved.

The entire bill was reversed. Amazing. It is, but it's not like a scalable model for managing health care costs in America. Not even a little. There's only one Sarah Cliff. I would have gone back to the hospital and returned the ACE bandage and the ice pack if I knew it was going to cost $5,000 plus. This was one of multiple examples. You know, I talked to a woman in Philadelphia who left an ER. She was charged an $800 facility fee. This happens. Usually, you know, I'd say I hope and I

think that $5,000 is an outlier, but it can happen. And like it did happen to Jessica. Is there anyone out there that knows to expect these facility fees or does everyone in this country basically go into a hospital sort of blind to them? I think we mostly go in blind to them. And a lot of times that works out okay, because most Americans do have health insurance. And a lot of times that works out okay, because most Americans do have health insurance. And in most cases, the health insurance is going to pay that fee. And maybe, you know, you'll pay $100 copay or something like that for going to the emergency room. There are two situations, though, and one of them becoming increasingly more common where it's not

really fine. One is if you're uninsured, so you're on the hook for the entire bill. The second is if you have a high deductible. So this is the amount you have to spend before your health insurance ever kicks in. One of the trends we've seen in American healthcare is deductibles really going up over the past decade. As medical prices rise, employers think about, you know, how can we keep our contribution down? And one thing they can do is just put on a higher deductible. Now, if I'm in my deductible, like I notice the fact that this is actually pretty expensive, that the Band-Aid costs $629. How did these facility fees get put into place? Like, where did they come from? What is their

genesis? When I talk to hospital executives, what I usually hear is that, look, emergency rooms are expensive to run. You need to be open 24-7. You have to accept anyone who comes through your door. Federal regulations actually say that ERs have to provide life-stabilizing care to anyone who shows up regardless of their ability to pay. Does that vary? It doesn't. Essentially, if you are an emergency room, you are subject to this law called the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act, or everyone in my world just calls this EMTALA.

Is that a character in Black Panther? It might. It should be. It should be a character if there's like a healthcare superhero movie. We need that movie. It's probably the emergency doctor is named Emtala. Emtala. But Emtala basically is this requirement from the 1980s that says emergency rooms have to accept anyone who walks through their doors and provide them with life-saving care.

They can't say, give us $100 first. They can't say, let us check your insurance card and then we'll decide. When I talk to hospital executives, the thing I hear again and again is like, well, we have to be ready for strokes. We have to be ready for gunshots. We have to be ready for anything. So we essentially create this charge to cover all that overhead. I think that certainly makes sense up until a point. But the place where I don't find that argument convincing is the fact that these costs vary so much. Yeah.

It raises some red flags about, you know, what is actually driving those costs. Is there a reason that hospitals can't just be a little more transparent about these fees? I send a lot of inquiries to hospitals where someone sends me a bill and then I write the hospital and I say, I'm writing about this bill. I'd like to ask you some questions about how this price was set. The response I almost always get is, well, that's a private matter between us and the insurance company. Those prices are part of a negotiation between a private hospital and a private insurance company. And it is built into their contracts that they are not going to talk about what numbers they settled at.

It seems beyond counterintuitive that this care that you received because it was sort of like a life or death situation could ruin your life, could cripple you financially. What do we do? Are there solutions? One of the things, you know, is just giving this information to people. Yeah. I would love to see at a hospital front desk, you walk in and there's a sign that says, here's the facility fee if you have Cigna or Aetna or Blue Cross or whatever insurance companies they contract with. So people know like, okay, this is like the base level and I am aware of that. Yeah. This is

something a lot of emergency doctors I've talked to get pretty uncomfortable with. They worry that people might see those prices, go home, get sicker, possibly die in the worst case scenario. But I don't think the right solution is just keeping people in the dark and deciding that emergency doctors definitely know best. Like you said, those bills can be pretty crippling. It's possible some federal regulations would need to be revised to allow this kind of information, but I think that would do more harm than good for American patients. I got a middle ground for hospitals. Don't display what the fee might be for a gunshot wound lest someone go home and just not treat it and die, but maybe let people know that like an ice pack and a band-aid might cost

$5,000 so they could just go to CVS. Right, exactly. Like that's a case where I feel like Jessica, who we were hearing from before, she would have benefited by knowing up front. And, you know, when we talked, one of the things she said, which is a kind of sad reflection of the American health care system, because she was really worried about medical bills. She told me that, you know, if it came down to going thousands of dollars in debt versus saving my ears, like, it's sad, but I think I'd choose not to be in debt and, like, lose my ear, which is a really sad statement. But I think someone like that who is asking and someone like that who is not in a life-threatening situation, they should have the right to know. Sarah Cliff is the host of the Impact podcast here at Vox.

If you want to hear more about these ER fees, her show is a great place to start. Next up, how do doctors in emergency rooms feel about all this? I'm going to ask one in Kentucky. I'm deeply unsatisfied with my mattress. You want to tell me about it? Uh, yeah, sure. Wait, hold on. I have one around here somewhere. A mattress?

Yeah. I don't like, you know, sleep like you do. But I have one around. Okay, great. Here it is. Okay, this is your mattress. That's awful. It's got no...

It doesn't slap. You know? Like, listen to this crap. Hold on. There's just nothing there, man. It's gotta have some resonance, right? It's gotta have something. It's just like... It doesn't have enough presence. It doesn't have any presence, right? It's got to have something. It's just like... It doesn't have enough presence.

It doesn't have any presence, yeah. The timber is just all wrong. I don't know, maybe a firm pillow top kind of thing would give us the forward momentum your show needs. Wow, I wonder if they have that at mattressfirm.com slash podcast where you can use the coupon code podcast10 to get 10% off your next mattress before May 8th. Wow.

Was that all one word? Today Explained, I'm Sean Ramos for them. Up top, we heard about how Jessica Pell got billed well over $5,000 for an ACE bandage and an ice pack in an emergency room. We reached out to the American Hospital Association to talk about these fees, but they declined to be a part of the show, so we decided to ask an emergency room doctor. Nobody reasonable in health care thinks coming in and getting a Band-Aid and getting a screening exam is worth $5,000. Ryan Stanton works in Lexington, Kentucky. R-Y-A-N-S-T-A-N-T-O-N, emergency physician and spokesman for the American College of Emergency Physicians.

So, Ryan, you're around these fees. You think and talk about these fees. What's the deal with these fees? Well, there has to be a facility fee. You have to pay for the room, the supplies, the lights, the water, the nurses, the inspections, the rules. I mean, everything, if you slap healthcare on it, is automatically more expensive. Even if you come in for something that's not a significant emergency, I still had to go to medical school. I still have to pay about $25 for every patient who walks in that door for malpractice insurance. I still have to pay to have the nurses there, the lights on. So the facility still needs a fee to make it available. And that's one of the challenges with emergency medicine. It's expensive because we are designed for unstable, sick, and dying patients. I get why we need those fees, but what about like this $5,000 plus fee we heard about in the top half of the show for like an ace bandage and an ice pack? That's going to be an outlier. $5,700 or whatever it may be, that's going to be

an outlier. That's not going to be the norm across the country. What about what Sarah Cliff proposed earlier in the show? This idea that hospitals could display a fee structure or something like, if you have X insurance, this sprained ankle is going to cost Y. Is that a bad idea? Well, no, I don't think it's a bad idea. I just know I can't do it. The federal law, which came around in the mid to late 80s, says that anybody has the right to seek emergency care no matter their ability or intent to pay, no matter if they're American, whether they're visiting from another country, whether they've got insurance or not. I can see how maybe if you posted that a gunshot wound to your upper thigh is going to cost you $15,000 or something like that,

some might go, you know, forget it. I'm going to go ask my cousin Larry to like douse me in rubbing alcohol and pull this bullet out of my leg. But what about for this person who comes in with a cut on her ear and ends up being charged $5,000 for an ice pack? Does it make sense to list some of the facility fees and maybe not all of them, at least as some sort of compromise? People should know how much things are going to cost. But to give you an idea of how strict the law is when it comes to that, if I have an urgent treatment center across the street, I can't post a sign for it in my emergency department that says you can go there because that is considered dissuading you from the emergency services. If part of the problem, at least, is this EMTALA thing where you can't do anything that might deter someone from coming in and using your services

in an emergency room. Do you think we should just get rid of EMTALA so you can say, hey, a sprained wrist is going to cost you $2,000, and that way people might be, I don't know, more inclined to go to urgent care down the street or something like that? Well, EMTALA may be a pain in the butt for a lot of things, but what it does is it protects every single person on the property of the United States of America. If you jumped a border and you came here, EMTALA still protects you. If you have no money or if you have money and you have no intention of giving me a dime of it for the care I provide, EMTALA still protects you. That was the whole purpose of it. It was seen as a need in the 1980s that people were being refused care, denied care, and were having complications and deaths because

of it. And really the thing that pushed it over the edge is pregnant women having babies and nobody wanted to take them because they were uninsured and there was complications and there was deaths to mothers and babies because of it. So I think EMTALA is very, very important. Yeah, I mean, but that doesn't really explain why people are getting price gouged for cuts and bruises. Physicians don't control health care. Patients don't control health care. Health care is controlled by big business, whether it's big hospital systems, whether it's big contract management groups, whether it's the insurance.

I mean, the profits that Blue Cross Blue Shield announced just a couple weeks ago is enough to pay the salaries of 5,000 ER physicians. I mean, we're talking about lots and lots of money, lots and lots of power, lots and lots of influence that have continued to propagate this very challenging and difficult system that makes up a significant proportion of our gross domestic product. I still just don't understand. When you talk about the costs involved with a Band-Aid and ice pack. You know, as I mentioned, that's an outlier. I mean, you can't keep bringing in the outlier. If that can happen in the system, outlier or not, it feels like something's gravely, gravely wrong. Well, it does. Even if it were an outlier, someone in some hospital or some billing agency somewhere looked at a service, which was someone came into our ER, got an ice

pack, we sent them home, and still said, all right, let's bill them over 5k. Who thought that was okay? I don't know. And that's what we have to work with, with the public, with insurance, our providers, and our system as a whole, on the transparency to know how much things are going to cost a fair value to know how much it needs to bill and how much it needs to get paid. And also then helping patients understand access, where they can go based on what they have going on. And right now for many, many in our population, the ER is the only place to go. It sounds like you don't agree with a lot of the system that you work in, but do you think it's possible to fix it? Yeah, I think it has to. President Obama tried to change our healthcare system and it felt like it was like the most controversial thing that's ever happened in our government in my lifetime. You know, you have to understand the number of people that pull. So, in my state, we put up legislation that was going to establish that fair health value across the entire state.

And the insurance industry came in and just threw out all these scare things and say, we're going to have to jack up your bills, you're going to have to pay thousands of more dollars per year just to pay for this, even though they still reported $1.3 billion of profit just in Anthem and Blue Cross Blue Shield. So there's folks that don't want to fix it this way. You know, they're the for-profit industries that want to be able to game the system. And if we fix the system, they can't game it and pull more profits.

And that is, I think, one of the true crimes of our system is how many groups are profiteering at the expense of the physicians, the providers, the nurses, and the patients. Ryan Stanton is the spokesperson for the American College of Emergency Physicians. R-Y-A-N-S-T-A-N-T-O-N, emergency physician. If you or someone you know would like to share your ER bills with Sarah Cliff for her reporting project, head to erbills.vox.com. Thanks. could you play us out breakmaster just one last Oh yeah, it's going to be disappointing though. Until I go to... mattressfirm.com Oh no, no, no, sorry.

You want to go to mattressfirm.com slash podcast and use the coupon code podcast10 to get 10% off your next mattress before May 8th. Oh yeah, totally. What did I say? Okay, wait, here we go. Ready? Uh-oh, the president just tweeted something incriminating.

Uh oh, the economy's doing a thing we don't like. Uh oh, here comes Rudy Giuliani.