Today, Explained - The Americans fighting for Ukraine

Episode Date: March 21, 2022

President Biden insists he won’t send American troops to join Ukraine’s war with Russia. Veterans like Alexander Szokoly joined the fight anyway. This episode was produced by Victoria Chamberlin, co-reported by Makena Kelly, edited by Matt Collette, engineered by Efim Shapiro, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, and hosted by Noel King. Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained Support Today, Explained by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Let's say you're young. Not a kid, but young. Let's say you realize now how much in the world isn't black and white. Let's say you still want to do something you think is right. And you're watching when Vladimir Putin invades a smaller, weaker country. Honestly, I didn't think Ukraine would stand 24 hours. But when I woke up and saw that

the Ukrainian defense was holding, I figured that, you know, this is a pretty worthy cause. I don't think there's been a better example of good versus evil in a long time. Let's say you decide you want to be part of it. This is just basic. They're fighting

to be free. And I can't think of a better cause that deserved help. Coming up on today explained an American veteran fighting in the war in Ukraine. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit Superstore.ca to get started. Currently, we're over the border in Poland, getting some extra equipment and things like that. We crossed back over Tuesday, late Tuesday evening.

Alexander Zuccoli is 23 years old. He's a former U.S. Army combat medic. And lately he's been shuttling back and forth between Ukraine and Poland. Tell me, Alexander, about the moment that you decided you were going to go and do this. What happened? I've been kind of keeping a close eye since 2014. I figured this would come. It reminded me a lot of the annexation of Austria by Nazi Germany. And I figured that the rest of the hammer would drop soon.

I remember in school when the 2014 annexation of Crimea began. We watched it in the classroom. I always wanted to be in the military as a kid. And when I enlisted at 18, I continued to keep an eye on it. I was 16 when they invaded Crimea. I was always super interested in World War II history, doing a little minor in history in college and stuff. I just kind of saw it as something of, hey, this is a repeat. The quote that history repeats itself is ever so true when you watch it happen. So it just seemed like it would be the next big war of my generation. Did you join the Army after college?

I dropped out of high school at 16. My mom was ill. I got my GED at 17, I believe. I did a couple years of community college. The day I turned 18, I walked in the Army recruiting office, signed. I left for basic in April of 2017. I turned 19 in Fort Hood. Did you serve in the conflicts in Iraq or Afghanistan?

No, ma'am. At any point in your career in the U.S. Army, did you see combat action? Nope. I see. You served on active duty for two years, I understand. Are you in the Guard or in the Reserves now? No, absolutely not. Anyone in IRR status or Reserves or Guard cannot come here. Why not? You are still beholden to the United States government.

If you're in active ready Reserves, you are still fulfilling a term of commitment to U.S. military. But if you are Guard, Reserves, IRR, please don't come. You're going to get yourself hemmed up. Going to Poland, going to Ukraine, there is expense associated with that, I imagine, even if it's just a flight. How did you afford this trip? So for myself and for a couple of the guys here, a lot of our flights were sponsored by a gentleman named Anthony Capone. The man's, I don't know how to describe it. I mean, he shelled out his own money to get us here and to get us equipped and to get us into this fight to help. So he paid for a lot of stuff.

A lot of us have a GoFundMe just to pay for like basic living expenses while we're gone, like rent and things like that. That, I mean, I think my flight would have been like 1200 bucks. It's a lot of money. I don't have that at the ready. I'm still 23 in my bank account. So yeah, he paid for it.

He's brought equipment over here, body armor. I've been in constant contact with him. The man is just excellent. I can't speak highly enough of him. He's enabled a lot of people to come over here and to help that wanted to help and wouldn't normally be able to. I'm not 100% certain exactly how much of my own money I have spent because it is intermixed with other sponsors who have come in. But in total, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars. My name is Anthony Capone, and I'm employed as the president of a mobile medical company called Docco. A little over 10 years ago, I went on my first real global

traveling experience. I was trying to make it around the globe, going easterly without getting on a plane. And while I was traveling through Europe, I was in Warsaw and I wanted to get to Moscow to travel on the Trans-Siberian train. And the fastest route from Warsaw to Moscow is through Belarus. And when I arrived there,

I did not realize I needed a transit visa. I then received a pretty serious roughing up from a number of the soldiers there. And then they proceeded to eventually, and somewhat thankfully, throw me back on a train back to Warsaw. And on my route from, on my train ride from Warsaw to Kyiv, I met a Polish Ukrainian, told me stories about his own traveling, about him being helped by the Mujahideen when he was traveling through Afghanistan into Iran. And just, you know, story after story of how humanity had helped him while he was traveling. And it inspired me to keep going and not give up. And then I proceeded to stay with him for a few days in his place in Kyiv. And that trip ended up becoming one of the most impactful parts of

who I am today. And so I owe to him and to that experience a great deal. You arrived in Poland first, is that right? That's correct. Warsaw, where we rented a car, drove to Krakow. We linked in with some other Americans who were on the ground already and have been here for a couple weeks. We stayed for a couple days, and then we left from Krakow to Kros. Parked our vehicle, we walked over the Medica pedestrian crossing, where picked up by Ukrainian contact who drove us into Lviv. When we're in Medica, I just, I can't stress this enough. It's a, it is a humanitarian crisis. What did you see? Malnourished children, uh, covered in Mylar blankets. Um, I think the biggest one that stuck out to me was there was a older lady who was, I don't know, maybe in her eighties who was in a wheelchair wrapped in a blanket. Some of these people were waiting 36 hours to cross the border.

There's just not enough. It's not built for this kind of traffic. I don't know if those tents are heated. I'm going to assume they're probably not. You've got children. You've got pets. I mean, it's, I don't think, it can't handle the amount of people it's getting. I think Madika shows what this war is really doing.

What feeling is this evoking in you? Anger. I think I speak for everyone here. Yeah. We got really used during the Afghanistan-Iraq war to seeing civilian targets get hit by accident. This isn't that. This is targeted, purposeful shelling of civilians. They're making an attempt to cause Ukraine to submit by killing their populace. We watched them explicitly target civilian population centers.

What did you see? We were there. We got shelled at 10, 11, something like that. We got to the shelters. We could hear it hitting. This was purposeful. Alexander, it cannot escape me that at this point in your career, you've never faced an actual enemy. You're a smart man, you're well-trained, but you've never fought an enemy. Do you feel that you're prepared for this? I do. Why?

Well, I mean, even if we're ignoring the humanitarian crises and the war crimes in Ukraine, I think all of us feel an obligation to those back home because it's not going to end in Ukraine. A lot of the guys here haven't seen a formal combat action, but are here anyway. You're going to find it one way or the other. I think we'd all rather get in front of it.

Alexander, who do you report to? What uniform are you wearing? Well, uniforms are in short supply. Okay. We operate with the blessing of the Georgian National Legion. We met with their commander, and he's given us the green light. You're linking up with guys who have fought the Russians before. Is there something that you are currently wearing that identifies you as not a civilian? That's correct.

So it would be the Georgia National Legion patch and the blue tape around the right arm. Alexander, have you considered what could happen to you if you are captured by the Russians? Absolutely. And we all have kind of made our peace of that. I think all of us understand that capture isn't really an option here. What does that mean? If we're captured by Russians, assuming we won't be just paraded in front of TASS like a dog and pony show, none of us are going to get a happy ending because we're americans they've been targeting americans that's why they hit the foreign legion training facility i don't want to i don't want to be dark on your podcast but uh no look you should tell me what

is going through your head i you're you're what you're doing is extraordinary i think it's best if we're just honest about what you envision happening uh Yep, everyone's keeping emergency hand grenades. So if it comes to that, then that is what it is. I'd rather meet my own end at my hand than any kind of end given to me by the Russian Federation. Alexander, I think this question demands to be asked. Are you sure this is the right thing to do? Positive. No doubt in your mind?

Nope. අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි I'm sorry. Thank you. it easy to share unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame. When you give an AuraFrame as a gift, you can personalize it, you can preload it with a thoughtful message, maybe your favorite photos. Our colleague Andrew tried an AuraFrame for himself. So setup was super simple. In my case, we were celebrating my grandmother's birthday, and she's very fortunate. She's got 10 grandkids. And so we wanted to surprise her with the Aura Frame. And because she's a little bit older, it was just easier for us to source all the images together and have them uploaded to the frame itself. And because we're all connected over text message, it was just so easy to send a link to everybody. You can save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carvermat frames with promo code EXPLAINED at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com, promo code EXPLAINED.

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Some are in groups. All of this could equal chaos. Dr. Lindsay Kahn, an associate professor at the U.S. Naval War College in Newport, Rhode Island, who studies these types of situations, these are her views, not the U.S. Navy's, says the Ukrainians know this could go sideways. The Ukrainians are aware of this. So they have set up what they are calling an international legion. The way that they are doing this is they have a website, in fact, and you are supposed to apply at a Ukrainian embassy or consulate, and they will vet you because they do not want extremists.

They do not want ideologues. What they want is people with military or law enforcement experience and specifically combat experience because, frankly, other types of people, they're counterproductive. Foreign fighters entering conflicts is an ages-old phenomenon. It's gone on in most conflicts for hundreds of years, and it used to be sort of the normal mode of fighting. And there are three groups of people who tend to do this sort of thing. One, as you mentioned, is veterans. It's often a desire to reclaim the feelings of purpose and camaraderie

and shared sacrifice that many of them may miss from their service. Sometimes it's a feeling that this is what they know how to do best. The second group of people that tend to go are what you might call ideologically motivated, people who see this as an identity issue. Either they identify religiously or ethnically or in some ideological sense like freedom, democracy, or things like that. This group of people tends not to have military experience and they tend to be sort of naive and they often don't do very well. The third group is extremists, and these are people who tend to be radicalized already. We tend to think of these now in a jihadist connection, but there are plenty of examples of extremists of various stripes.

And of course, in the Ukraine situation, the extremists that we know of tend to be white nationalists. It's one thing for Ukraine to let foreign fighters in, but if a country hasn't formally entered the war as the U.S. hasn't, is it legal for their citizens to go? By U.S. law, it is not illegal for an individual to leave the country in order to enlist in a foreign military. It is illegal for Americans to mount military expeditions from the United States. That's the law from way, way back in implementing the Hague Convention on Neutrality that was supposed to keep countries from becoming co-belligerents in a conflict.

And you can understand why launching an actual military expedition from the United States territory would be different than having Americans on their own go somewhere else to enlist in a foreign military. So as far as the US is concerned, if you're an individual who just decides to do this, that's not illegal. The statutes on the books, they're in U.S. Code Title 18, they do say that you shouldn't be recruited on U.S. soil, but the Department of Justice almost never pursues such cases. So from the U.S. perspective, the only time that this would be a crime would be if you were going to join a military that was fighting against the United States. So, for example, we captured several Americans fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan, if you recall, and they were determined to be criminals under U.S. law. So if you're fighting

against the United States, it's a crime. So you can be prosecuted and you can lose your citizenship potentially. It's not a crime if you go and enlist with the intention of giving up your US citizenship, but it will lose you your US citizenship. So from the US perspective, this is not likely to have consequences for your average person, your average veteran doing this. The only time, and the US State Department has a website that has all of this information, the only time it's likely to be a problem is if you have an active security clearance, then it might be a crime to go join a foreign military. And if you are interested in ever having an active security clearance, you might want to consult a lawyer

before you engage in this kind of thing. What protections do they have and not have? Under the Geneva Convention, if you're, for example, taken prisoner, you do have certain rights. Does that foreign fighter share the rights of Ukrainian soldiers? If they are a dual citizen, if they have Ukrainian citizenship, then they would probably still be treated as a POW if they were captured by the other side with all of the Geneva Convention rights. If they were purely an American citizen, Russia already stated that they will consider any foreign fighters captured to be mercenaries and not treat them as prisoners of war. Now, technically, most of the people going to fight don't actually meet the definition of mercenary. A mercenary is any person who, among other things, is specially recruited

locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict, is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain, and, in fact, is promised by or on behalf of a party to the conflict material compensation substantially in fact, is promised by or on behalf of a party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar rank and functions in the armed forces of that party. In reality, it doesn't matter because if you are captured by the Russians, the Russians will call you a mercenary and they will try you as a mercenary and or simply deny you POW protections, possibly use you as a hostage or a bargaining chip, possibly use you as propaganda. There are

all kinds of things that can go very, very wrong for foreigners captured by the other side. Do we know where foreign fighters are coming to Ukraine from? Right now, the majority of people on the Ukrainian side are coming from nearby former Soviet spaces. On the Russian side, they also have people coming in from former Soviet republics, primarily, of course, Belarus. And the Russians are now recruiting from the Middle East and apparently Africa. They have set up multiple recruiting centers in Syria. And I just saw a report that there are some volunteers coming from the Central African Republic

to fight on the Russian side. When you think about the big picture aspects of what is going on here, men and women from all over the world, not just the West, this war could drag on, we don't know how long for. But if citizens of other countries are getting involved in this conflict, does this, in a way, turn into a tiny version of a world war? And I don't use that term lightly. Foreign fighters nearly always intensify

and prolong conflicts, which makes sense if you think about it because they generally join the weaker side. The appeal is frequently ideological. Even for the veterans, they're not going to go and fight in any old fight. They're going to go and fight in one that they think is worthwhile, which generally means if they're effective at all, that the fighting is intensified and prolonged, which generally has consequences for the civilian population, as well as, of course, the fighting forces.

One of the issues that you find is that people who went over with no particular ideological knit to pick may come back to their home countries after the conflict feeling much more what we would call politically efficacious or sort of motivated to be involved, but they now have a mindset that politics is changed by violence. And so they can become a threat to their home countries. The number of people who come back from these and become domestic terrorists or extremists is fairly small, but obviously a small number of terrorists and extremists can be damaging. Pauline Moore did a study on the consequences of foreign fighter presence for human rights violations and violence against civilians. And she did find that in general, sort of on average,

the presence of foreign fighters increased violence against civilians. Whether this turns into a mini world war, I mean, my concern would be that it turns into an actual world war in that if Russia wants to escalate the conflict, it can use the presence of foreign fighters as a pretext. That's always a concern. It's one of the reasons that sometimes countries ban people from doing this. I think the emotional appeal of going to help the Ukrainians in this war is obviously huge. And not just emotional appeal, but a desire to maintain an international norm of not being successful when you invade a neighboring country. But there are a lot of aspects to the foreign fighter phenomenon that are dangerous, difficult,

can have long-term consequences. And I think it's important that anyone who wants to help contribute to Ukraine's effort thinks about it long and hard before they do something like actually go to fight and really should only do that if they really know what they're doing and have skills that would actually help Ukraine. Today's episode was produced by Victoria Chamberlain and co-reported with McKenna Kelly of The Verge. We based our episode on a story McKenna wrote. It's Today Explained. Thank you. you