Today, Explained - The fight over AP African American Studies

Episode Date: February 7, 2023

The College Board piloted an AP course on African American Studies. Then, after conservative pushback, it debuted a revised curriculum. But the group insists it’s not caving to political pressure. This episode was produced by Siona Peterous and Hady Mawajdeh, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Patrick Boyd, and edited by Matt Collette and Noel King, who also hosted. We had help with today’s show from Sarah Darville, national managing editor for Chalkbeat.  Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained Support Today, Explained by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tony Green, a high school teacher at Bishop O'Dowd in Oakland, was in Washington, D.C. for a celebration of the brand new African American Studies AP course last week when he got word that some parts of the course had been changed, some sections revised. Some conservatives had taken issue with those sections. What this guy in Florida did is he just threw a monkey wrench into the works. This guy in Florida is Governor Ron DeSantis, and the College Board aggressively denies allegations that it bowed to political pressure. We may never know what actually happened, but Mr. Green taught the original pilot course. So what was in it? What's not now? And what

does Mr. Green plan to do with what some people have called a watered-down curriculum? Well, it's not really in his nature to back down. My grandmother fought off the Klan with a shotgun, right? Coming up on Today Explained. This NFL season, get in on all the hard-hitting action with FanDuel, North America's number one sportsbook. You can bet on anything from money lines to spreads and player props, or combine your bets in a same-game parlay for a shot at an even bigger payout. Plus, with super-simple live betting, lightning-fast bet settlement,

and instant withdrawals, FanDuel makes betting on the NFL easier than ever before. So make the most of this football season and download FanDuel today. 19-plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King with Scott Jassic, who's the editor of Inside Higher Ed. Scott, let's talk about what caused this new African-American studies course to be created. When does this begin? So this began a few years ago because black students, on average, do not take as many

AP exams and do not score well enough on the AP to earn college credit. But there's long been a desire to get more Black students involved with AP. And while AP in African American history is not only for Black students, there was an assumption that it would be of particular importance to them. Pilot school principal Carrie Holland hopes this course will increase access to advanced courses. But ultimately, for the students, it's about more than academics. It's about identity. There is no one way to be Black.

And so this class just really reminds me of that. More Black children, young Black children like me, can grow up knowing this information. And it'll change the world. How was it rolled out? Well, the way it's rolled out, you know, AP in any new course has a pilot program. We put out a number of different sources for the first pilot and immediately started talking with students and teachers where the course was living and just asked them which sources are interesting, which sources are engaging, which sources make your creativity come alive, and started tweaking from there. And what the AP program did is they went to 300 professors of African American studies and asked them, what do you think we should include? What should we not include? Et cetera. This results in a lot of debates. And then gradually, AP developed the course. And what you'll find when you read it, as I hope you will, is you'll find an unflinching encounter with the facts and evidence of African American history and

culture that gives young people the chance to think for themselves. And the course, you know, covers from Africa to slavery to the Civil War. Lots of things are in the course and haven't been that controversial. Most of the controversy is over the modern period of African American history. And what's in the modern period? Black Lives Matter, affirmative action, the debate over reparations for slavery, queer theory. This course on black history, what's one of the lessons about? Queer theory. Now, who would say that an important part of black history is queer theory? That is somebody pushing an agenda on our kids.

And so then what happens is Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida gives a speech and announces that AP won't be granted for Florida public schools. The Department of Education highlighted specific issues with proposed sections on Black queer studies, reparations, and the Black Lives Matter movement, as well as activism, saying it amounts to indoctrination, not education. This is a huge deal for the AP program because Florida is a large state and it matters to the College Board to reach Florida. What was Governor DeSantis arguing? Because Florida is a large state, and it matters to the college board to reach Florida. What was Governor DeSantis arguing?

Well, he hasn't been that explicit about it. He said the course had nothing of value. His education department said there was nothing to learn there, that it was, quote, woke education. They're advocating things like abolishing prisons. Now, that's a radical political position. You're free to take that in your own life. I don't think very many people would think that that would actually work. How is that being taught as fact to be able to... But I think, obviously, Ron DeSantis is getting ready for a possible run for president, and many people think that that is the real motivation here. What we're dealing with is this fear of this historiographical displacement that's driving

the terror and panic, and it's being used by people like DeSantis to motivate fears and grievance and for his own political and selfish ends. Okay, so Ron DeSantis says this course has no place in the state of Florida, and the College Board responds by doing what? That's sort of unclear. I mean, they removed all of those sections from the course, but denied that it had anything to do with Ron DeSantis. They said that the College Board has to scrutinize what it's going to do and has to eliminate some things. We at the College Board don't really look to the statements of politicians, but we do look to the record of history. So when we revised the course, there were only two things

we went to. We went to what Brandy described, which is feedback from teachers and students, as well as 300 professors who have been involved in building the course. And we went back to principals that have guided AP for a long time and served us well. But most educators assume that there was a connection, that Ron DeSantis did play a role in this. It's more likely that the College Board said, okay, well, what are the things that are causing controversy? Let's get some of them out. The College Board released the official curriculum yesterday. The Black Lives Matter movement and reparations are now listed as optional project topics. And according to the New York Times, several trailblazing Black authors were removed,

including Bell Hooks, who wrote about race and feminism. And many people view this as creating an AP light in African-American studies, because in the African-American community today, affirmative action does matter. Black Lives Matter matters. Many people are shocked at some of the things that have been taken away. It is incomprehensible to see that this is what this ban or this block, to be more specific, that DeSantis has put forward. If you think about the study of Black Americans, that is what he wants to block. And again, these types of actions aren't new. They're not new from what we're seeing, especially from Florida, sadly. The College Board is saying we did not bow to political pressure. A lot of informed people are saying, nah, it looks like they did. If the College Board

did bow to political pressure, what's the problem with that? Well, the problem with that is the College Board's job is to create educational materials on a range of subjects. The College Board should not be bowing to political pressure. That's not what it does. That's not what it should do. Always good to have you in the studio, Ta-Nehisi Coates. So what concerns you most about the revisions that you're hearing? Well, really what concerns me is the climate around the revisions. I'm certainly not a person with qualifications to design a curriculum for AP, even AP for African American Studies. I think the board should be free to do their work and do their pilot programs and go through the process

and not be influenced not just by my thoughts, but by the thoughts of governors, legislatures who are passing laws, who apparently just want a curriculum that makes people feel comfortable and feel good about themselves. Let's say that I'm a student who will take this AP course in the coming year.

What will I be learning about? You will probably be learning a lot. As I said, this course starts in Africa, talks about how the slaves were caught and brought to America, talks about the conditions of slavery, talks about the Civil War, talks about the Reconstruction period, talks about the Jim of slavery, talks about the Civil War, talks about the Reconstruction period, talks about the Jim Crow period. All those things students will still learn. What they'll learn less about is in the modern era of some of those hot topics.

It is a huge advance if those students are learning black history, black culture, black literature. And they may well be learning more than they've learned in the past. But that doesn't in any way take away the concerns about what they're not learning. You know, in education, people always talk about the curriculum, what's in the curriculum. But you also need to focus on what's not in the curriculum. If you only are reading male authors and not reading any female authors, that's a bad thing. And many students historically have done that. And this is an attempt to broaden the curriculum, to broaden what students will understand.

And some people think it's very disappointing that some of the modern hot issues are left out. Coming up, this AP course was piloted in schools throughout the United States, and we're going to talk to a teacher who taught it about the original course and about the changes. And we're going to ask whether he's disappointed. Support for Today Explained comes from Aura. Aura believes that sharing pictures is a great way to keep up with family. And Aura says it's never been sharing pictures is a great way to keep up with family. And Aura says it's never been easier thanks to their digital picture frames. They were named the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter.

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And so we wanted to surprise her with the AuraFrame. And because she's a little bit older, it was just easier for us to source all the images together and have them uploaded to the frame itself. And because we're all connected over text message, it was just so easy to send a link to everybody. You can save on the perfect gift by visiting oraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carvermat frames

with promo code EXPLAINED at checkout. That's A-U-R-A frames.com promo code EXPLAINED. checkout. That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com, promo code EXPLAINED. This deal is exclusive to listeners and available just in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions do apply. It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King. Can you tell me who you are? Well, my full name is Anthony Martin DePores Green, but my mama used to just call me Tony until I got in trouble and she would use my full name. She was everyone's mom. And what do you do for a living? So I'm a teacher and a coach in Oakland, and I have been a teacher and a coach for the last 42 years. I've taught economics and foreign policy. I've taught the rise of Black nationalism,

Caribbean coffee cane and culture, African-American studies, and currently I'm teaching advanced placement, African-American studies. Mr. Green, Tony is one of 60 teachers in the United States who taught the pilot version of the AP African-American Studies course. I asked him why teaching an AP course on African American Studies is important to him. When I first started my formal education, I went to a school and a housing project in Vallejo called Flawsden Elementary School, and it was in the Floyd Terrace Housing Project. At that point, history was taught to us by very young teenage Black Panthers. It was at the start of their Black Panther breakfast program in about 1968, I would say. And growing up, the housing project

that my school was in, half of it burned down in the 1968 rebellions that happened after Martin Luther King's assassination. So my parents took me out of that school and they moved me across town to an all-white school. And at that point, when they started to refer to history, I no longer heard anything about what Black folks had done historically. And so my perspective on, you know, the truth and what I was being told, you know, really changed. And I started to learn history from a Western perspective, and it did not jive with what I had learned previously. And so my total focus in terms of education from that point forward was learning more about African American history and studies. And when this opportunity veiled itself this past summer to teach advanced

placement African American studies, I jumped at it. And the reason why I think advanced placement African American studies is so important is because it's a national recognition of real history. Tell me, what does pilot mean in this context for you and for your students? It means that the students do not get advanced placement credit for college. They do not get college credit at this point until it's fully accepted by the college board. I currently have 65 students, so the students were very interested in the course and it's become very popular. I see the students as revolutionaries, especially if you look at the content that they are pushing out there. It's at a very high level. Even though your students weren't getting the college credit, they wanted to take this class. Exactly. 100% correct.

Let me ask you what the students liked about it. When you would sit with a young person and they would tell you, I really enjoy this, what would they say specifically? I would say the information that's contained that they had no concept of, they had no concept of, give you an example, Abu Bakr II, the brother of the richest man in history, Mansa Musa, you know, who was able to actually navigate the seas before the supposed father of the Age of Discovery, Christopher Columbus in 1492. Abu Bakr did it in the 1300s. They had no idea that you had the number of Islamic universities connected to Africa that preceded universities in Europe. The oldest continuous university, the University of Carine in Morocco, is still open today. So they did not have any idea that Africans had access

to this extensive knowledge that would actually put them at the forefront of knowledge, you know, scientific and otherwise, at the forefront of mankind's knowledge base. Let me ask you something, Mr. Green. Parts of this course really set conservative Americans on edge. It seemed like there were lessons that were more in the present day that had conservatives really concerned. What were those parts? Well, I would say one of the main issues that conservatives have is the idea of the Black Lives Matter movement. Historically, there's been a major concern since Reconstructionist ended, about the intimidation of Black people brought on directly or indirectly by the United States government. And it perpetuates itself currently in the actions that the police have in relationship largely to Black males or sometimes in Black females. There's a number of cases that have

caused Black activists to respond by creating this movement called the Black Lives Matter movement. Why that is threatening to conservatives, I would link basically to racism, the belief that Black people are not fully human, right, which is something that extends throughout the colonial period to the contemporary historical period. Black people react with extreme anger. And I wouldn't say just Black people if you look at the Black Lives Matter movement, which was an international movement. So when they respond to anger, it's natural. Racists don't think that it's natural because they don't believe that Black people are fully human. They think that there's something wrong with us. But if you look at history, and this is the beauty of advanced placement African-American history, it tells exactly who we are as humans. So, you are teaching this course. Your students are really

enjoying it. You like it as well. When did you start hearing that there might be pushback about the content, and what were you hearing? During the summer, when we first got together at Howard University, you know, there was a discussion amongst, you know, quite a few teachers, you know, over, you know, social discussion that in some states there might be pushback because of the content and because of the history of certain states. In terms of the most recent thing in Florida, a week to two weeks ago, sort of a discussion about what the guy down there would be talking about and how he would be attempting to use it to sort of leverage his own political ambitions, which I think exactly what he's doing. He's trying to leverage this idea. My family is from Florida. My mom's side is all from Florida. My grandmother fought off the Klan with a shotgun, right? That's Florida. If you look at Black history in the Americas, the first Black settlement in the United States, Fort Mose, or Fort Negro in Florida. It's now

St. Augustine. That was built by Black hands. We learned that in advanced placement, African-American studies. There's always been pushback from white racists in Florida. So that was sort of expected. Some of the teachers that were teaching it down there expected it as well. But politically, now all of a sudden we're the oxygen was actually sucked out over the last week for this guy down in Florida. And it's doing exactly what he wanted it to do. It's caused this controversy. You said you're in D.C. because of the course? What's been going on? The college board had a huge celebration

at the Museum of African American Studies and brought the original 60 teachers back in town for this celebration. But we were forced to, you know, to address that issue. And it's really unfortunate. But what I think is going to actually happen is it's going to make the course much more popular. If we're talking about teenagers, yeah. The fact that, right, the quote-unquote establishment doesn't like it, sure. I hear you on that. How did you get word that this course had been revised? I mean, you all are in town to celebrate, and then does the college board say, oh, we decided to switch this up on you? There's been a constant revision over a number of months. So this is really nothing that new, right? We have access to all those materials, and everybody is still going to be teaching from those materials and bringing in other materials as well. You know, the 20 percent of the class

is based on this semester-ending project that the students are doing. A lot of them, I'm sure, are going to do their projects on these materials that supposedly were pulled out in reaction to this guy in Florida, which I don't necessarily think is the case. This is a matter of great debate. The College Board says it is not bowing to political pressure. The College Board is saying, we took into account the thoughts of academics, and they told us the course needed to be different. Why do you think this happened? If you look at where we started in August, we got, I think we got two units of four units, right?

And things were being added and they were being moved and they were being positioned and they were being deleted since we were together in August, right? Then this semester, we got parts of another unit, right? We did not get a complete package. We've been getting this material unit by unit since it's a pilot, and we've been looking at the material. And so since it's a pilot, it's constantly being revised. But I think what this guy in Florida did is he just threw a monkey wrench into the works, didn't read the entire document. He said that the material that we're covering, essentially he said it was unimportant, right?

You know, he's doing it to put his name out there, which it is done perfectly. But these revisions have been taking place constantly because it's a pilot, right? So we did not get any final document till February 1st. Are you disappointed by any of the revisions? Am I disappointed? Reason why I'm not disappointed is because we have academic freedom and we have access to all the materials. So I don't know why I would be disappointed. I'm disappointed that the air

was taken out of the sails of the launching of this great course, and some of the oxygen is consumed by this guy. That's what I'm disappointed with. I'm not disappointed with anything because like I said, I've got all the documents. I can read every single one of them to you right now. What I think I hear you saying is you think this sort of outcry over the revision is a bit of a distraction from the fact that with are going to be, I think, 300 next year. That should be the story. Anthony Martin DePorris Green. Mr. Green teaches and coaches whatever the kids need at Bishop O'Dowd High School in Oakland.

His recommended reads include Invisible Man and The Wealth of Nations. Today's show was produced by Siona Petros and Hadi Mawagdi. It was edited by Matthew Collette, in fact, checked by Laura Bullard, and it was engineered by Patrick Boyd. I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained.