Today, Explained - The Moscow murders

Episode Date: December 6, 2022

Investigators are still trying to solve the brutal November killings of four college students in Moscow, Idaho. Making their work harder: the hordes of online sleuths who’ve latched on to the case. This episode was produced by Miles Bryan and Hady Mawajdeh, edited by Matt Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Paul Robert Mounsey and Efim Shapiro, and hosted by Noel King. Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained Support Today, Explained by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The police department in Moscow, Idaho, publishes a daily log of calls that come in. On November 11th, a DUI, a disabled vehicle, an unconscious person outside of a frat house, a drug search, among others. Moscow is a college town. November 12th is a lot of the same. Loud music, officer responded, another DUI, another drug search, a stray puppy that was too skittish for anyone to grab a hold of. Then on November 13th, there's a report in the log that very rarely appears in Moscow. In fact, it hadn't appeared for the previous seven years. Homicide. In the three weeks since, police in Moscow have foundered. The homicides, four of them, are unsolved. They do not have a suspect. Residents

are scared. And rumors, persistent distracting rumors ginned up by internet sleuths, have introduced chaos into the investigation. That's coming up on Today Explained. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit Superstore.ca to get started. It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King. Sally Krutzig is a reporter with the Idaho Statesman.

She's been covering the murders in Moscow from her home base in Boise. Sally, what happened in Moscow last month? So what we know happened is on Saturday, November 12th, four students who attended the University of Idaho were out on the town. Two of them were at a bar and two of them were at a fraternity party. By 1.56 a.m., they were all back home. The three women lived together in a house just off campus with two other roommates, and one of the victims was a boyfriend who was staying the night.

Four of the people in that house that night were killed. Tell me about these four people. Tell me about the victims. So two of them were Madison. She went by Maddie and Kaylee. Kaylee was a senior. She was just about to graduate in December. She had plans to move to Austin. She was known for being outspoken and adventurous. She loved to play pranks. Then you had Maddie. Maddie was described as sweet, funny. Multiple people I spoke to brought up her deep love of the color pink. These girls were absolutely beautiful.

They had been friends since sixth grade. And every day they did homework together. They came to our house together. They shared everything. And in the end, they died together. Zanna, she was a junior. She was really passionate about her major in marketing. She loved to attend live music shows. She was known for being driven and always positive. And then Ethan, her boyfriend, was a freshman. Well, Ethan tolerated school. For those of you guys who knew him really well, he tolerated school. He loved the social life. He was also a triplet and was really close to his brother and sister who actually also attended school with him. We were trying to have a conversation really quickly about our favorite memory.

We can't come up with one. I mean, he literally lit up every room. These were kids, it sounds like, who were fairly carefree without a lot of problems. Right, yeah. You know, if you look through their social media, you just see so many silly dance videos, photos surrounded by friends attending Greek parties. Guys, I'm at Charlie D'Amelio check.

These were popular kids. You know, people describe them using phrases like outgoing and life of the party. In terms of what you understood about your sister's life, was there any threat that she had ever had? Was there anybody who was coming after her on social media? Did she have a past, a problem with a boyfriend or a friend? Anything to inform why somebody would do something so violent to her, her friend, her other roommate, and her boyfriend? Absolutely, there's nothing. There's no boy problem. There's no threat.

There's no high-risk lifestyle that could have indicated this. It has taken all of us completely by shock, and we have absolutely no ideas. None. Tell me what we know for sure about this crime. So what we know is that the four students were out of the house. Ethan and Zanna were attending a fraternity party on campus. Maddie and Kaylee were spending time at a downtown bar before grabbing some pasta at a nearby food truck and then getting a ride home. By 1.56, they were all home. Phone records show that at 2.52, they were still alive. And we know this because Maddie and Kaylee,

at around 2.30, started calling Kaylee's recent ex-boyfriend. They called him 10 times, and the last call came in at 2.52. You know, I know the phone calls sound kind of weird, but actually, Kaylee's sister says this was a really normal thing for Kaylee to do. She was known for just late at night. She'd call you over and over and over until you finally picked up. And then she'd just make you chat with her. You know, she'd ask you, what should I have for dinner tomorrow?

So at 2.52, they appear to still be alive. And between 3 a.m. and 6 a.m., someone went into their bedrooms and killed them. Two bodies were found on the second floor. Two bodies were found on the third floor. Maddie and Kaylee lived on the third floor. And, you know, one really sad detail that I think hit home for a lot of people is that Maddie and Kaylee, these two best friends since childhood, were found killed in the same bed, in the same bedroom together. You know, Kaylee's dad talked about how they did everything in life together. And then in the end, they died together.

It comforts us. It lets us know that they were with their best friends in the whole world. Sally, did someone break into the house? There were no signs of forced entry. So the house had a code that you would punch in to get into it. And this was one of those houses that had been passed on from student to student. It was a party house. And so we're not sure if maybe someone knew the code, but what we do know is there were no signs of forced entry. Two bodies were found on the third floor, two bodies on the second floor. And then on the bottom floor, which is more of a walkout basement, the two additional surviving roommates were sleeping. They apparently

slept in late and, you know, didn't hear anything to cause them at least enough alarm to call the police. They wake up and something caused them to be concerned about their roommates. We know that they tried to call Kaylee in the morning, but something caused them to be concerned about their roommates, so they summoned additional friends to the house. And as a group, the roommates and the friends, they called the police. They were very distraught. They were passing the phone back and forth, and they told the police, we think someone is unconscious and isn't waking up. Police show up. They enter the second, we think someone is unconscious and isn't waking up. Police show up.

They enter the second and third floor and they find the four dead students. Where do the police stand today? Is there a suspect? Is there a motive? It's three weeks in and there is still no suspect. We don't know what the motive is, but police have said that they seem to have reason to think the community has nothing to worry about. Based on details of the scene, we believe this was an isolated, targeted attack on our victims. But it's kind of confusing because they say it's a targeted, isolated attack, but they haven't given us any reason why they believe this.

And they also are saying they have no suspect. We do not have a suspect at this time, and that individual is still out there. So it's confusing about how that can both be true. They know it's a targeted killing. They don't have a suspect. So the community is understandably very on edge. They are not sure what to believe. How can we believe this isn't going to happen again? How can we believe that I'm not at risk of the same thing if we have no idea why you think this? Three weeks in, no suspect.

What's happening there right now? What's it like there? People are really scared in the community right now. And they're also getting more and more frustrated with police as, you know, they continue to refuse to release information. People are still talking about it. It's kind of something that's on our minds every day. Everyone is just, like, speculating, obviously, because the police haven't given us a ton of information. And, like, that's how the rumors start.

I think the students are some of the most afraid. Thanksgiving break was just about to come up before these murders. And right after they happened, it seemed just there was an exodus of students. They all decided to go home early. You know, my colleague the next day was knocking on doors in the neighborhood. And this is a neighborhood that's, you know, all these homes are rented out by students. And it was difficult for her to find anyone because so many of them were too scared to stay on campus. The rest of the community is also, you know, just as scared. I talked to people who said they'd started carrying a gun. Someone who said, I don't have a gun.

So I started carrying a knife in case I have to fend off someone else with a knife. The community has just been so on edge, and just the lack of information from police has contributed to that a lot, because they don't know where to direct their fears. Moscow is a small town. It has a population of about 25,000 people in a very rural area, and it hasn't had a murder in seven years. I think the Moscow police don't have a lot of experience with how to handle this kind of murder, this, you know, brutal killing with no obvious immediate suspect. And even more so, the national media attention, the, you know, national internet attention that has been on this case. They just haven't known how to handle it. Support for Today Explained comes from Ramp. Ramp is the corporate card and spend management software designed to help you save time and put money back in your pocket. Ramp says they give finance teams unprecedented control and insight into company spend. With Ramp, you're able to issue cards to every employee with limits and restrictions and automate expense reporting so you can stop wasting time at the end of every month.

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Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you please contact connex ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge bet mgm operates pursuant to an operating agreement with i gaming ontario It's Today Explained. We're back with Sally Krutzig of the Idaho Statesman. And Sally, the police are trying to solve these murders. The FBI is involved, the county sheriff, the state police. So law enforcement is there in a big way, but it's not just the police, is it? No, we have seen this whole field of internet sleuths pop up around this case.

Stabbing is personal. It's very messy, okay? So if four people were murdered and it was one suspect who did this, their clothes had to have blood all over it. There are Facebook groups with thousands and thousands of people in them who are, you know, posting all the time. Hey guys, so remember the other day I showed you guys the ladder that was beside the house where the four students were murdered? Well, I actually may have the reason why the latter is there. So one of my friends sent me a couple pictures last night. There are Reddit threads about this. There are Instagram pages dedicated to who they think did it. What the police aren't telling us is that they probably know who the murderer is and they've probably known since day one or two of the

investigation. It's just been amazing how these armchair detectives, these internet sleuths have flocked to this case to try to solve it themselves and they speak that way. I recently saw someone saying, why won't the police tell us this information? Don't they know we're trying to solve it? Their shoes play a big role in this, okay? It reminds me a lot of the Gabby Petito case. And I think one reason is because both these cases, there wasn't an immediate answer. But there were all these little clues you could put together. You could comb through the victims' social media pages.

You could read their comments and, you know, interpret them. And people like to be detectives. They like to feel like, if I just find all the right clues, if I start putting it together, I can solve this. And I think you had that with both the Gabby Petito case and this Idaho case.

Because there's no immediate answer, people, you know, put on their detective hats and want to try to solve it themselves. I came across the neighbor who gave an interview and obviously the murder was done with like a hunting knife. And it's almost like when you hear him talk in this video

it's like almost like when you're a hunter and you're experiencing that adrenaline high. In these videos he's like trying not to smile because it's like he got away with it he got that trophy he got that kill. Like Gabby Petito these victims were were young, they were white, they were conventionally attractive. And I think it's allowed people to latch on to them as a victim that they want to care about. Okay, so the internet becomes obsessed with this. And let me ask you, if I am to look online, where am I going to see this most? It's on Reddit. It's on Facebook. It's on Instagram. It's on web sleuths. Where am I going to see this most? I think this isn't new. I think humans have always been captivated by crime. I think people probably sat around their kitchen table and debated who was Jack the Ripper. What's different now is that in the age of social media, these debates are public. Families of the victims are reading it. Friends are reading it. The people who they are naming as suspects are reading it. Are these internet sleuths having a real world effect on people in Moscow?

Yeah, I'll give you a couple examples. I saw at one point people going to Kaylee's teenage sister's Instagram to comment on her photos with questions about the case. At one point, her younger sister was arguing with this internet sleuth account who was insisting the roommates must have done it. And her sister was saying, no, they wouldn't have done that. They loved Maddie and Kaylee. And you see them going back and forth, back and forth. And the sister is getting more and more upset as she's arguing with this complete stranger who is convinced they know who did it. Another example is, if you recall, Kaylee and Maddie stopped by a food truck on their way home. This food truck has a live video through Twitch where people can kind of watch everything that's happening outside the food truck. Hello. Welcome back.

Thanks. I think I would like the carbonara. And the internet discovered that you could see Kaylee and Maddie walk up to the food truck, make their order, and then wait for their food. And in this video, you see Kaylee and Maddie have this brief interaction with this guy wearing a hoodie. Cool. Thank you. And, you know, you can interpret it as him being annoyed at them. Some people felt like they were avoiding him.

It's hard to say. Like I said, the interaction was very minor. And people have all these interpretations of what they were feeling and thinking, but the internet decided that this guy must have done it. If you were so concerned about the girls getting home and took off to your parents' cabin five hours away, right after this year alibi, why weren't you the one to give them a safe ride home? Too much evidence that way, right? And police finally had to come out and say, we have looked into him and we do not believe he did it. Now, other information that we're learning here tonight,

detectives don't believe the other two surviving roommates or the male in this grub truck surveillance video are involved in this crime. But for days, you had everyone going after this person, convinced he must have killed these girls. Based on what you've told us, it sounds like people on the internet are forcing the police in Moscow to react to theories that have sprung up on the internet and which are not correct. And in some cases are really genuinely hurtful.

One bizarre aspect has been that when police make a new public statement, maybe they hold a press conference, the majority of that statement is debunking rumors. A lot of people have expressed their desire to help and the best thing that most people can do to help is to stop with any kind of rumors and just seek official information that comes out of the Moscow Police Department. They have had to say, we do not believe it was the roommates. We do not believe it was the man in the Twitch video. It got so bad and there were just so many rumors that they created a website with a list of questions and answers addressing all of the rumors. And, you know, police have

said that people are calling and emailing in with tips. You know, they read something on the internet and they go to tell police. And so they're getting these same questions over and over and over again. And they are just having to spend so much time and resources addressing these internet rumors that, you know, have no factual basis to them. And at the same time, I mean, the people posting these TikToks and these Reddit threads, they would argue that they are not malicious. They believe this is a tragedy also and they want to help. How do you square that as a reporter covering this? I think they genuinely want to solve the case. I think they genuinely want to help.

The problem being, you know, how much can the Internet actually help? You know, we have not seen many cases where it was the Internet who, you know, crack this case wide open. And so the question becomes, are they helping more than they're hurting? Or are they hurting more than they're helping? I am ResponsibleCulture43 on Reddit. I am one of the moderators for the Moscow Murders subreddit. I got interested in this case because I do live in Washington, so it was pretty local and it was big news. And it was pretty unique in how the case was because it was like a pretty big shock for such a small college town. So I was following it as it was always on like the local news and then looking at Reddit. I try to consider myself to be more

of like an ethical true crime person, and we really wanted to make sure that this was going to be a subreddit that had the news and we didn't allow any disrespectful conversations towards the victims, their families, or people that might be involved that haven't been identified by the police. I just talked to a reporter for a newspaper in Idaho who said her reporting shows that internet sleuths have done some real harm to victims' families by giving oxygen to rumors. They've slowed the police down because the police are so busy responding to rumors that have popped up on internet forums. How do you reckon with the fact that perhaps what you're doing is really distracting here,

distracting to the people who are supposed to solve this thing. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely a big thing that we take into consideration. And we've been changing our rules to kind of like, you know, lockdown as we were talking about before on some of the speculation and rumors and theories that people have been coming up with. We've been trying to keep everything to those singular threads, I think, in comparison to some other of the other subreddits that have kind of popped up in reaction to us having such strong rules.

Because it has taken a lot of the internet over. I know that there's a lot of like Facebook groups. There's about three other subreddits that have also popped up that are definitely a little bit more of like the Wild West than I would say our subreddit is. So we definitely have been trying to adjust our rules as things have been escalating to make sure that we're keeping it locked down. I think it's great to have like one place on Reddit that people can go to to be able to get the information. Also, everybody that I work with on the mod team is all really great. We're all of like the same mindset of respecting victims, their families, not having like copaganda and trying to just have like a really respectful place on the internet to be able to just get the news for this case that

is very local for all of us on the mod team. I was on the Reddit for a couple of hours this morning and, you know, it's possible that I'm just a very old school journalist and I hear what you're saying about respect, but there's a lot of stuff on this Reddit that is just, from a journalistic perspective, that is just like wild speculation. Do you really think this is responsible? So definitely when it comes to Reddit, we as the moderators do the best that we can to be able to pull down any content that we find does not go in line with our separate rules or the Reddit rules. But as it is a community, we also still need people to report comments or posts that don't go in line with our rules that aren't filtered out by our bots. And so sometimes we do miss the mark on being able to find those things, but we do definitely try our best. I know as a team, we definitely want people to say if they're speculating

or if they're doing their own theory. And that's not something that would be in line with our content that we agree with. Do you think that you and the subreddit can and will help solve this case? Definitely not. That is not even like the purpose of the subreddit. It was for news. And I definitely don't think that armed terror detectives from across the country that have no law enforcement background, no investigative background will be able to do anything to solve this case. Today's show was produced by Miles Bryan and Hadi Mouagdi. It was engineered by Efim Shapiro and fact-checked by Laura Bullard. Today Explains editor is Matthew Collette, and I'm Noelle King. king.