Today, Explained - The other eight debate

Episode Date: August 23, 2023

Fox News desperately wants you to watch tonight’s Republican presidential debate. The Washington Post’s Erik Wemple explains why, and Vox’s Christian Paz has a primer. This episode was produced by Avishay Artsy, edited by Amina Al-Sadi, fact-checked by Amanda Lewellyn and Serena Solin, engineered by David Herman, and hosted by Sean Rameswaram. Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained Support Today, Explained by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The first 2024 Republican presidential debate is here. Fox News is hosting tonight in Milwaukee. Actually, it's pronounced Milwaukee, which is Algonquin for the good land. But weirdly, the frontrunner slash accused felon slash former president isn't going to be there. It is what it is. But another Florida man will be. As will Vivek Uncle. And the former vice president.

I love my mom. And a handful of people you've probably never heard of. Rude. But Fox really wants you to watch it. We're going to find out why and get you ready for it, whether you're going to watch it or not, on Today Explained. BetMGM, authorized gaming partner of the NBA, has your back all season long. From tip-off to the final buzzer, you're always taken care of with a sportsbook born in Vegas.

That's a feeling you can only get with BetMGM. And no matter your team, your favorite player, or your style, there's something every NBA fan will love about BetMGM. Download the app today and discover why BetMGM is your basketball home for the season. Raise your game to the next level this year with BetMGM, a sportsbook worth a slam dunk and authorized gaming partner of the NBA. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager.

Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Explained. 2024 Explained. explained 2024 explained yeah um eric wempel i'm media critic for the washington post how badly did fox news want to host the first GOP debate badly, very, very badly. In fact, when Fox News was in the middle of its legal peril in the Dominion case, it was announced in April, the RNC announced that Fox News would be doing its first debate.

We are going to host the very first debate with Fox News. It will be a Fox News Republican primary debate. I'm definitely watching. You're definitely watching. You're going to have to be there, right? You're probably going. They hadn't at that point announced the moderators, and it was no coincidence they came at Fox News' greatest moment of legal and PR peril in years.

So that is an indication of how seriously, how badly they want to do this. It's a really, really high-profile event for them. It doesn't seem like a presidential debate, you know, more than a year away from a presidential election is going to reverse anyone's fortunes. But what's the thinking at Fox News? What is the excitement over this debate actually about?

Well, I think the excitement is in one part ratings. Fox News has struggled a little bit, especially in primetime, since Tucker Carlson left after the Dominion settlement. And the other thing is that it's a big news event, and every single clip that gets passed around on the internet and on other TV outlets and so on and so forth, it all comes back to Fox News. So it's an enormous branding opportunity, enormous opportunity to get themselves in legitimate news for a change.

Of course, a big bummer for Fox News must be that the former president slash accused felon slash frontrunner is not showing up. It's such a big downer, in fact, that Fox News has deployed all sorts of lobbying resources from its newsroom, including the top executives, to break bread with Trump. And Brett Baier, I understand, this is according to the New York Times, has called Trump directly four or five times to beseech him to participate in this debate because Trump is such a draw, an obvious draw. The debate will be more lively if he's participating.

Why would I let Ada Hutchinson, I call him Ada because, you know, his name's Asa, but I call him Ada for whatever reason. Why is that? He needs... I think he's weak. Okay. There'll be more headlines and there'll be more, basically more amperage for Fox News all around if Trump

participates. And of course, he's the prohibitive frontrunner. I mean, I guess in the CNN poll of polls, he's up like 40 points over his next rival. So clearly, you know, when someone is the center of the race to that degree, you want him participating in your debate. And Fox News has gone all out to court him. If he doesn't show up, because I guess there's still some negligible chance that he will, will people still watch? I think people will still watch. You know, already people are tuning into Fox News. It does tend to wallop its competitors in primetime, even though it's sagged a little bit, as I said, since April.

But yes, people will tune in. It's original programming, you know, it's not contrived, it's not scripted. I think that people still hunger for that sort of exchange. You know, Chris Christie is certainly a theatrical and interesting person on stage. It's a lot of conflict, it's a lot of chatter, it's a lot of rhetoric. And, you know, it is the kickoff of the season of this 2024 presidential cycle. And none of the fireworks that happen with Trump will happen without Trump. But there'll be some stuff. And of course, they'll all comment on Trump. And that's, I suppose, on some level, the next best thing to having him there anyway. So even if he's not there, he's the elephant in the room at the elephant debate. Exactly. And he animates the debate, present or absent.

Former President Donald Trump is skipping out on the event in favor of an interview with former Fox News host Tucker Carlson. And we're hearing now from two sources familiar with that matter that the interview has actually already been recorded. So how will you toggle between the debate and the piece of counter-programming put on by Tucker Carlson, whom I know you're a fan of, and the former president himself? Yeah, you know, I wondered about that. I don't have a plan yet. You know, I got to tape one or the other, I guess, or just hope that there is a recording that I can easily access. But yes, the Tucker Carlson interview with Trump that has been taped and is going to debut in direct competition with the debate is certainly

an interesting wrinkle. Obviously, Trump did not want to absent himself from the debate and not offer his fans another way of getting Trump content at the very same time. And Carlson, you know, one of the subplots is that Carlson has a very active interest in undermining Fox News, given that Fox News essentially fired him in April after it wrapped up the Dominion suit. They have been slinging mud at each other ever since with Carlson and his people claiming that Fox News fired him as a condition of the Dominion settlement. Fox News and Dominion both have refuted that, have denied any such thing. But basically what we're seeing here and what is the absolute delicious dynamic here is that Tucker Carlson is basically tormenting Fox News.

And that, to me, could not be a greater example of poetic justice in this entire beat. I've been doing it for about 20 years in one way or another covering media, and this is the most deserved torment cycle that I've ever seen in my life. And where is his counter-programming available? He runs video stuff, and he just drops it on Twitter.

Drops it on X. And we'll see who comes out the bell of the ball tonight. Yeah. I suppose. My guess is, of course, all sides will proclaim victory. Of course. Has there been, in recent memory, an occasion where the frontrunner in a presidential election didn't show up to a presidential debate?

You know, I'm sort of remembering when there was a lot of drama about Trump showing up to a Fox debate. He made a big deal about Megyn Kelly. It was all based on that August 2015 debate when Megyn Kelly asked him about his treatment of women. You've called women you don't like fat pigs, dogs, slobs, and disgusting animals. Your Twitter account. Only Rosie O'Donnell. For the record, it was well beyond Rosie O'Donnell. So he just made a whole circus of it and then blew off that January 2016 debate. And it was this months long drama just before the Iowa caucuses. Whoever even heard of her before the last debate,

I'm not a fan of Megyn Kelly. I don't like her. She probably doesn't like me, and that's okay. It was still a, you know, a headlining event. But that was sort of like an interesting progression because it showed Trump doing what he does now, which was unthinkable at the time, which is a GOP frontrunner or near frontrunner or whatever, basically dissing Fox News. We hadn't seen that much of that. But Trump, he did something that people hadn't seen before, which was just diss Fox News and trash it. They can't toy with me like they toy with everybody else. So let them have their debate and let's see how they do with the ratings. You know, obviously the political system, well,

you may say it's recovered. Some people say it never has. He did go on to, of course, win that election. I believe he lost the one after it. Does a debate in the end actually affect political fortunes anymore? I think there's an argument that it does. There's this wisdom going around now that this debate is kind of a donor's debate that all the big money people in the Republican Party are going to be watching to see if someone emerges as a real viable alternative to Trump, and they may want to put the money behind that person. And I think that the candidates are very cognizant of that. They need to show themselves as viable and presidential and all that sort of stuff. So yes, I do think that there's a relevance to the debates and that

there aren't that many opportunities to break through outside of the debate. Because, you know, everybody's on Twitter or X or everybody's, you know, everybody's on Twitter or X or everybody's on social media, everybody's on Facebook. It really is difficult to pierce the bubble. So worth watching to find out who might be running against the foreign president or who knows who might end up being his vice presidential candidate. Yeah, I think that that is a big part of it. I mean, these debates are always tryouts for vice presidential candidate. Yeah, I think that that is a big part of it. I mean, these debates are always tryouts

for vice presidential hopefuls, and that's why a lot of them, you wonder, like, why isn't he attacking this person? Why isn't she attacking this person? Well, you know, they want to be on the ticket. So that's one of the great dynamics that you find. And I honestly believe that that's one of the reasons

why it's worthwhile and interesting to watch these debates, is that there's so many different currents and dynamics that are going on at one time. Eric Wemple, read him at the Washington Post. When we're back on today, explain enough about who's not going to be there and more about who is. Support for Today Explained comes from Ramp. Ramp is the corporate card and spend management software designed to help you save time and put money back in your pocket. Ramp says they give finance teams unprecedented control and insight into company spend. With Ramp, you're able to issue cards to every employee with limits and restrictions, and automate expense reporting so you can stop wasting time at the end of every month.

And now you can get $250 when you join Ramp. You can go to ramp.com slash explained, ramp.com slash explained, r-a-m-p.com slash explained, cards issued by Sutton Bank. Member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply. The all-new FanDuel Sportsbook and Casino is bringing you more action than ever.

Want more ways to follow your faves? Check out our new player prop tracking with real-time notifications. Or how about more ways to follow your faves? Check out our new player prop tracking with real-time notifications. Or how about more ways to customize your casino page with our new favorite and recently played games tabs. And to top it all off, quick and secure withdrawals. Get more everything with FanDuel Sportsbook and Casino. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Visit connectsontario.ca.

Bing, bing, bing, bong, bong, bong, bong, bong, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. Today Explained is back with Christian Paz, senior politics reporter at Vox.com, who has written for our website a sort of primer for this debate tonight in Milwaukee. Christian, barring major surprises, there are going to be eight people on the stage. You started with donor favorites, the people who are bringing in the money. Who are they? So these are Ron DeSantis, the governor of Florida. Oh, what is that?

Icy? Yeah, that's probably a lot of sugar, huh? And Tim Scott, one of the current senators from South Carolina. I'm living proof that America is the land of opportunity. I call them the donor favorites because obviously Ron DeSantis is seen as the most credible alternative to Trump right now. And he was the one who was being hyped up the most over the last year almost, right, since the midterms when he won his reelection in Florida by pretty big margins. And then Tim Scott, who isn't necessarily polling the highest either, but who, especially in Iowa, right, has been seen as more of a realistic, likable version of DeSantis, who, you know, hasn't been turning people off, has been steadily rising in the polls

and has been consistently raising a lot of money and using it wisely. I believe that my optimistic, positive message is being rooted in Iowa and that, frankly, our poll numbers continue to go up. That's great news. More importantly, people are showing up at large numbers and my crowds continue to increase. That's even better news than even polling. Okay, so those are the donor faves. Let's talk about the critics of the former president. Definitely. Up until Monday, when the Republican National Committee confirmed that there'd be one other person on stage,

this was a category of two. Former Vice President Mike Pence. On that day, President Trump asked me to put him over the Constitution, but I chose the Constitution, and I always will. And former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. A lonely, self-consumed, self-serving mirror hog. Christie as a campaign advisor working to get Trump reelected in 2018. He was one of the first people who jumped into the race and seriously leaned into an anti-Trump message. Do you support the rule of law and accountability, or do you support Donald Trump and support the chaos that he brings and a disregard for the rule of law. And then Chris Christie, you know, he has flip-flopped back and forth between opposing and supporting Donald Trump and right now has chosen

to also try to speak truth to the Republican electorate. The Republican electorate doesn't necessarily want to hear that and they don't necessarily want to hear him. And then Asa Hutchinson, who also has very little chances of being the nominee. He just barely qualified. He's still under 1% of support across the country. That doesn't really give a lot of reason to believe that he'll be a serious contender for the nomination.

Let's have some fun. Let's talk about some of these rich guy vanity campaigners. One of them I think I saw playing tennis shirtless on a clay court on Monday. Yeah, and I think you're talking about Vivek Ramaswamy, who's the bigger name in this category. This is a category that is too Ramaswamy and then the outgoing governor of North Dakota, Doug Burgum, who also has a personal treasure chest of riches that he can use to run this campaign. Editorial note, since we spoke with Christian, poor Doug Burgum injured himself shooting hoops with his staffers and may not appear at tonight's debate. Godspeed, Doug. We hardly knew ye. We can start with Ramaswamy in terms of

just how confounding of a person, of a candidate he is. He made his wealth in biotech. And when he joined the campaign field, it didn't really look like he would be a serious voice. But he's seen his star rise as Ron DeSantis' star has fallen. Governor Ron DeSantis has had his entire career in politics, and that's fine. But I think that the Republican Party, I think the country is hungry for an outsider, somebody who's actually accomplished things outside of politics.

He's in third place in most national polls. And in a lot of early state polls, he's also rising quickly. Part of that is because he's been pretty smart about his media exposure, whereas Ron DeSantis early on did not speak to most media outside of conservatives. Right. I mean, only one of them has been on Today Explained. It is. I empathize with your challenge because it's very different to put me in a box. Difficult to put me in a box. Exactly, exactly. Vivek Ramaswamy has been everywhere. He's really been eager to talk to as many folks

on as many different media types and platforms. And he is willing to spend money. He said that he's been willing to spend more than 100 million of his fortune on the race. I think the biggest thing to note here is how he'll likely be attacking Ron DeSantis. I mentioned earlier that folks around Ron DeSantis are concerned about Tim Scott's rise. More recently, the super PAC that's supporting Ron DeSantis has also

let leak that they're concerned about Vivek Ramaswamy. There was a New York Times report on the leak of debate prep materials from the super PAC that included recommendations to the candidate Ron DeSantis to take a sledgehammer to Vivek Ramaswamy. And Ramaswamy really loved that and used that as a further attack on DeSantis. Didn't he like totally roast him? What did he say? His spokesperson said, if DeSantis struggles to use a spoon, I can't imagine he is particularly agile with a sledgehammer. What is that a reference to? It's tried in DeSantis lore.

It's an episode from four years ago during a private plane trip from Tallahassee to Washington, D.C. In March of 2019, DeSantis enjoyed a chocolate pudding dessert by eating it with three of his fingers, according to two sources familiar with the incident. That's the most relatable thing I've ever heard about Ron DeSantis. And the other rich guy on stage, Doug Burgum, he's the billionaire governor of North Dakota.

Hardly anyone knows him. And this kind of shows up in the polling. Again, Doug might not make it, but we're rooting for him. Let's move on to Nikki Haley. Yes. The former governor of South Carolina and the former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Nikki Haley, who at one point not too long ago seemed like she could be the future of the Republican Party. For a strong America, for a proud America, I am running for president of the United States of America. Though she's now stuck in a very weird mid-range position among the candidates, where she's

not in the upper tier of candidates who are being taken very seriously by donors and by voters, but also isn't a nobody or a vanity candidate. She started the campaign with a promise to take on bullies. We were whipping y'all's butt. You were. We were whipping y'all's butt. But she wouldn't mention Donald Trump. And a lot of her criticisms work just as easily on Joe Biden, who most people would assume she's talking about, as they would apply to Donald Trump. And so I think one of the big problems with her is that she's gone very far being a political chameleon, somebody who has a finger on the pulse politically, can assume the identity or the trappings of whatever political movement is needed.

But then when she comes around to trying to make a declarative statement on policy or on how she's different from other people, there isn't much newness there. And Nikki Haley just seems to be the most obvious example of somebody who used to seem to have a future and at the moment just kind of seems stuck. And lastly, there are a couple people other than that one guy who won't be on the stage. Yeah, exactly. And this is why I thought it was important to make the category of donor favorites

because there are two current governors, Glenn Youngkin of Virginia and Brian Kemp of Georgia, who a lot of the elites within the GOP and a lot of these donors wish would swoop in at the last minute, clear the field, take on Donald Trump, dispatch him, and then win the nomination and go on to defeat Joe Biden. That remains to be seen. Fox News, Christian, called their own debate in a headline over at FoxNews.com enormously important.

Is this debate going to be enormously important or is it Fox News just getting high on its own supply? There's definitely an incentive to want to hype yourself up when you're putting on a party and to want people to go and want people to watch and wish that they were there. The problem is that Donald Trump isn't there. And it just doesn't seem likely that any of these folks, unless, big unless here, right? Because we don't know what's going to happen with these investigations and when we have the indictments.

And so there is a chance, right, that something spectacularly bad could happen for Donald Trump and then he isn't able to stay in the GOP, that the people are telling all the pollsters, the people are telling reporters, the people are telling anyone who'll listen, they really like Donald Trump and that there are enough of these folks that really like Donald Trump to deny a nomination to anybody else. And as long as that is true, there really isn't an alternative to Trump. And what we can expect is another Trump-Biden rematch.

This is what everyone cries. But read us. Christian Paz, read them at vox.com. Our program today was produced by Abishai Artsy. We were edited by Amina Alsadi. Fact-checked by Serena Solon and Amanda Llewellyn, and mixed by David Herman. I'm Sean Ramos-Firum. The rest of the team here at Today Explained includes Halima Shah, Hadi Mawagdi, Miles, Brian, Victoria Chamberlain, Siona Petros, Patrick Boyd, and John Ahrens.

Our managing editor is Matthew Collette. Our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy. My co-host is Noelle King. We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder sometimes. We're distributed on public radio stations by WNYC all the time. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network since the beginning of our time. And you can get in touch with us anytime todayexplained at vox.com

if you like email. Today underscore explained on that platform that doesn't have a name anymore. Whatever. Thank you.