Today, Explained - The people behind the insurrection

Episode Date: January 13, 2021

President Trump has been impeached for inciting an insurrection on the Capitol one week ago. CNN’s Elle Reeve was there and explains who was duped into mobbing the government. Plus, Washington Post�...��s Dan Lamothe reports on how the government plans to prevent another mob from wreaking havoc. Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 This NFL season, get in on all the hard-hitting action with FanDuel, North America's number one sportsbook. You can bet on anything from money lines to spreads and player props, or combine your bets in a same-game parlay for a shot at an even bigger payout. Plus, with super-simple live betting, lightning-fast bet settlement, and instant withdrawals, FanDuel makes betting on the NFL easier than ever before. So make the most of this football season and download FanDuel today. 19-plus and physically located in Ontario.
Starting point is 00:00:25 Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. The outgoing president made history today by becoming the first ever president of the United States to be impeached twice, let alone in one term. He now owns half of all the impeachments in history in the United States. Donald Trump was impeached by 222 Democrats and 10 Republicans for inciting an insurrection on the very building in which they govern, the United States Capitol, one week ago. I can't believe it's already been a week when you said that. Wow.
Starting point is 00:01:09 Ellie Reeve was out there at the insurrection covering it for CNN, which didn't make her the most popular person in town. It's dusk. Everyone's walking home. The terrace has been cleared. And this woman with a bullhorn is like telling us how we should be ashamed and stuff. And she does manage to get a bunch of people to circle around us. And we got cleared by our bosses to go home and start editing.
Starting point is 00:01:32 And as we're walking down Pennsylvania Avenue, with our backs turned, this man threw a glass bottle at us. Oh, no. Yeah. And it shattered right at my heels. I felt the force. And the pieces hit the back of my jeans. Yeah. We've looked at this from a bunch of angles this week and last week,
Starting point is 00:01:53 but we haven't yet tried to explain who was out there. And we're hoping you can help with that today. But first, maybe tell me what your expectations were heading into Washington last Wednesday. I wasn't exactly sure what to expect. Ahead of it, I just called as many Trump supporters as I could to see if they were going or gauge interest. And everyone either said they were going or they wanted to go. So I was following one group that was really into Q. And I was following another guy who warned me that it was dangerous. There would be thousands of armed men. He was like, you live in a world of illusions where you think the government and police can protect you, but they can't. And this guy's prone to big talk,
Starting point is 00:02:39 so I wasn't sure if that was true. But that was an inkling that some people were thinking about storming the Capitol. How quickly did you realize that that was going to be the reality on Wednesday? I wasn't there the moment they pushed through the barriers. They started storming the Capitol about just a few minutes after Trump started speaking. And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. So we were still there getting footage of people reacting to Trump in the audience near the Washington Monument.
Starting point is 00:03:18 And then we got word that people were trying to get into the Capitol, so we just, like, raced down Pennsylvania Avenue to get there. However, I did see how once the crowd sees that this is going down, it becomes a mob. It stops being just people hanging out and becomes a mob. And this like focus and drive towards getting to this one spot is just unstoppable. Kill him! Kill him! I was actually here while this guy started breaking in with a cane. Obviously there's a this one spot is just unstoppable. I was actually here while this guy started breaking in with a cane, obviously there's a power struggle, there's a peaceful guys that were like, no, no, we don't wanna do that.
Starting point is 00:03:52 Then there was that guy, you know, he just said, well, oh well, I'm breaking it in. And so that's what I witnessed. It's just like regular people abandoning their sense of personal responsibility and ethics to participate in this frenzy. What are we supposed to do? OK, the Supreme Court's not helping us. No one's helping us.
Starting point is 00:04:14 Only us can help us. Only we can do it. Let's go. Fuck this shit. We tell you no. You back the fuck up. You back up! One of the first people I encountered was this large man who had been maced and was telling other men what had happened.
Starting point is 00:04:36 So I just went up to him and was like, hey, tell me, tell me what's going on. And he described how they'd been at the barricades and they were pushing against him and the police pushed back. And we rushed them, we charged them, We got all the way to the steps. They made a line. So we stood there and we tried to push them back a little bit until finally they started getting rough with us. So we had to push them back. So that's what we did. We pushed them back. We tried to get up the steps. They wouldn't let us up. So then they started pepper spraying and macing everybody. So he's like, and you do what you do if someone maces you you fight back and then described pushing into the capital he was very very angry very very heated just saying we have no choice um from there we're like okay we got to get closer closer closer so we just started weaving over shrubbery and through the yard in front of the Capitol until we got to a wall
Starting point is 00:05:25 that was near some stairs where people were climbing to go into the Capitol. Was everyone trying to get in that you encountered, or were there people happy to just hang out in the shrubbery? Again, it's this mob mindset. Once they were close, they all wanted to get in. And I'm talking like regular people, like soccer mom-looking people, soccer grandma-looking people. Once they got to that wall, they're like,
Starting point is 00:06:04 what's going on, what's going on? They all started pushing, pushing, pushing, trying to get through. You know, if we tried to walk past them, they would get upset. Like we were cutting them in line to get up the stairs. And I had to be like, look, look, we're not trying to get in front of you. We're just going over there. We're getting out of your way. So we were at this stone wall, my colleagues, Sam and Deb were standing on it filming. And this woman was getting in line to push over and climb over it. And I was asking her some questions. She was friendly enough. And I was like, why are you storming the Capitol? And then she kind of turned. And she got really mad at me and said it was a media narrative and that they weren't storming the Capitol. They were just
Starting point is 00:06:41 making their voices heard. And then she keeps climbing over a wall. So you've got your soccer moms and your soccer grandmoms. You've got your QAnon types. But as we know now, there were people out there who were much more serious, people who were there to fight. There were definitely people in military gear. I don't know if they were actually in the military, but you see those guys a lot. They've got the camo and the vests and with all the pockets. I saw a very small number of people making references to the alt-right or online racism. There was a sign for Kekistan, which is a reference to 4chan. There's the Camp Auschwitz shirt. I didn't
Starting point is 00:07:23 see him in person. But I think those guys were a very small number of the crowd, more militia people, and then more, I'd say the majority, just hardcore Trump supporters. So on the upper terrace, we climbed around and got up there. You know, I talked to this guy. He looked like just a country club kind of guy, just an older man. And I was like, do you think you're the mainstream of the Republican Party? He's like, well, yeah, I've been a Republican for years. I'm just a little bit disappointed in Republicans lately. But I think that's really important to understand is that you can't dismiss all these people as white supremacists is actually worse because white supremacy is, it has a limited appeal.
Starting point is 00:08:09 You know, there is so much culture, books, movies, TV shows about beating Nazis. Like most people do not want to be Nazis. And if you ask them, they'd announce racism. Maybe they have some bigotry, some biases against people of color, but they don't identify as Nazis or as racist the way the alt-right did. But this is much broader. QAnon, the bad guy is not people of color, it's pedophiles. Everyone can get behind that in theory, right? So like, stop the steal. These people think that they're patriots saving America. So it means that there are greater numbers of followers. And therefore, if there are some of them, a tiny percentage who want to do violence, that small percentage is going to represent a much larger number than it would of the Nazis.
Starting point is 00:09:04 But everyone in the mob seems to see past the white supremacists, a much larger number than it would of the Nazis. But everyone in the mob seems to see past the white supremacists, even if they're not white supremacists. Like, if I strongly objected to white supremacy and even ideas more dangerous than that, I wouldn't want to get caught dead in a mob where there were white supremacists. And maybe, you know, you didn't see the sweatshirt that said Camp Auschwitz, but you definitely saw Confederate flags everywhere, right? It seems like
Starting point is 00:09:30 they were either okay with being aligned with white supremacists or totally ignorant about it, or willing to look past all of it for this greater cause of a coup? No, they very much truly believe that they were doing something good for the country, that they are stopping an immoral predatory elite from perverting the values of the United States. You know, so again, with that first guy I saw, I was like, what's the point? What's the point? We're losing our freedoms. What do you mean, what's the point? What's the point? We're losing our freedoms. What do you mean, what's the point? Just as most of America is shocked at how these people are not in our reality, that they don't think coronavirus is a threat at all, that they don't accept Joe Biden as the lawfully elected president of the United States,
Starting point is 00:10:20 it's the reverse for them. They are shocked and appalled that the rest of us don't understand what they know to be true. There was no doubt. They had no doubts. No one I talked to had doubts. Do they feel like they won or lost? That, too, I think really depends on the group. Some people, so the Q people I've been following say
Starting point is 00:10:46 that Trump still has a plan I've seen some express a little doubt like is there really going to be an inauguration and then others will push back like no no don't worry like there's still a plan um among the more militant kind of neo-fascist types, this is a galvanizing moment. This was a huge, this was a tremendous show of force. And, you know, as people who, how can I put this? They just, it was a moment that showed their strength. And so it's something that they're proud of. I don't know if that's going to turn into anything down the road.
Starting point is 00:11:30 But again, no one that I've been tracking seems ashamed. Quick break, and then we'll try and figure out how prepared Washington, D.C., and the rest of the country are for another one of these. Thank you. corporate card and spend management software designed to help you save time and put money back in your pocket. Ramp says they give finance teams unprecedented control and insight into company spend. With Ramp, you're able to issue cards to every employee with limits and restrictions and automate expense reporting so you can stop wasting time at the end of every month. And now you can get $250 when you join Ramp. You can go to ramp.com slash explained, ramp.com slash explained, R-A-M-P dot com slash explained. Cards issued by Sutton Bank. Member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply.
Starting point is 00:13:20 I'm Dan Lamoff. I'm a national security reporter. I usually cover the Pentagon for the Washington Post. But lately you've been covering something else. Well, lately it's starting to stretch beyond just the Pentagon. Yeah, yeah. So, Dan, we spoke last week about national security in the wake of the insurrection at the Capitol, which is now exactly one week past. And we are one week from President Biden's inauguration. How are D.C. and the country at large preparing for what could be more rioting from these MAGA mobs? I think last week certainly served as a
Starting point is 00:13:55 wake-up call. We've reported ad nauseum the problems ahead of time in terms of who knew what and whether there was sufficient planning and whether or not there was sufficient National Guard in place. And once you don't have those things in place, sort of the limited options they have left in that, I think, especially in that hour or three of truth in the Capitol. Now, I think we shift to the other side, which is how do you prepare for the inauguration? Certainly, but also any date or problem that may arise before, during, and after. I think that the concern remains throughout. I think this weekend is a potential point of concern for some officials. And I don't think this ends with the inauguration either. I
Starting point is 00:14:45 think this is something that's going to be a thing people need to watch into February for sure. Well, let's talk about all three, before, during, and after. Starting with before, what might happen between today, Wednesday, January 13th, and inauguration day, Wednesday, January 20th? I think in terms of the threats that officials are concerned about and talking about is state capitals. I think in general, there's been numerous threats reported that, you know, marches, people trying to break into Capitol buildings. All right. The FBI is passing along what it calls credible warnings of nationwide armed protest and attack scheduled in every major city across the country, in all 50 states, all the capitals. So I think there's an ongoing discussion and it continues to evolve in terms of when I'm in a state capital where there have been concerns
Starting point is 00:15:40 this year. Michigan has seen problems. Washington state has seen problems. Oregon has seen problems. There is a desire to make sure that those cities and those capitals specifically are protected. That would take state police and the governors in each of those states have their own National Guard and the governors serve as the commanders of those National Guard. So they have the ability to activate, mobilize. There's a general officer in charge of the National Guard in each of those places. But the governor is the one that says, hey, we need to get moving on this. We need to make sure our buildings are protected. So I think you're going to see entirely likely to see activations in coming days.
Starting point is 00:16:22 Some of those National Guard members are going to be heading to D.C. I was speaking yesterday with the Minnesota National Guard. They specifically had 130 guardsmen heading into this much larger effort in D.C. But I think in places like Michigan, where you've already had violence in the Capitol, they're going to have to watch their own backyard too. Well, let's talk a bit more about D.C. and what might happen on Inauguration Day and how that might affect what's happening across the 50 states. In D.C., as of Wednesday morning, Acting Police Chief Conte has announced
Starting point is 00:16:55 that the plan in D.C. will include somewhere upwards of beyond 20,000 members of the National Guard that will be here in the footprint of the District of Columbia. That's a revision upward of the plan the Pentagon announced on Monday morning, which said that they were authorizing up to 15,000. Discussion sounds like it could go beyond the 20,000 as well. They are managing a request that would come up from Capitol Police, Metropolitan Police, other agencies that want to make sure that they are protected, that their buildings are protected, that the entire area, that they are able to act quickly be balanced against not only the threat in DC, but if you're requesting other states to send their National Guard and those other states also have
Starting point is 00:17:51 threats in their own capital, the desire to make sure everybody has what they need becomes important. It sounds like we're likely to see more National Guardsmen and security forces around the Capitol for the inauguration than people. I think that's actually entirely likely based on the flip side of this discussion, which is that people are being told to stay home. Our goals right now are to encourage Americans to participate virtually and to protect the District of Columbia from a repeat of the violent insurrection experienced at the Capitol and its grounds on January the 6th.
Starting point is 00:18:32 This is not going to be a normal inauguration, both for the sake of COVID, but now that you have the security threats, there just won't be the crowds allowed that we've seen in years past. I think one point that is worth making, even in a normal year, the inauguration is a massive undertaking for security conversations alone. During the Trump inauguration four years ago, there were about 8,000 National Guardsmen in the city for that. So we're up to double pushing on triple what we saw four years ago, I think the most common job for these guardsmen are going to be manning a massive security perimeter around everything that
Starting point is 00:19:11 they're trying to keep safe. And at this point, that looks like it's going to be blocks and blocks in downtown D.C. And of course, another thing that's receiving a lot of scrutiny is that there may have been sympathizers amongst the Capitol Police Force and other security forces who were there that day on January 6th at the Capitol. Is this a concern going forward into what might be more riots, more mobs before inauguration, on inauguration, after inauguration, that people in the National Guard, people in our own police forces might have sympathetic views towards these mobs and even might help these mobs? Yeah, I think the concern is ongoing. And I think it's hard for the government to get its arms around what the sum total of that threat is or
Starting point is 00:20:06 is not. On one hand, you need to be aware of it. You need to make sure that you're doing everything you can to root out any extremist tendencies in your force. On the other hand, they now need tens of thousands of security forces in D.C. immediately. What do you do to make sure that that force that you need is actually functioning? You know, paralysis is a concern if you go too far in the other direction. Yeah. I mean, there is something concrete that can be done here. It isn't easy to, you know, monitor soccer moms who maybe went a little too far on January 6th, but there were proud boys out there. There was QAnon out there. There are these
Starting point is 00:20:51 Boogaloo boys out there. Do you think what happened on Wednesday maybe changed the way this country thinks about domestic terrorism, about how, you know how white people might also be worth taking seriously when it comes to street violence and mobs and destruction of property and assaults against law enforcement officers? I would submit, especially primarily through the lens of my normal job covering the military, that this was an ongoing discussion, but a discussion that frequently seemed academic to people who were overseeing it. It didn't seem like an immediate threat all the time to all of the people that mattered in the discussion. And I think last week shows that they didn't necessarily have their arms wrapped around what
Starting point is 00:21:49 can happen when not enough attention is paid ahead of time to a potential threat the inauguration is one thing and then you kind of go back to the ongoing problem after which is that once once you have a new administration, once life maybe goes back to some sense of normalcy, you know, where else does this pop up in coming weeks and months? Dan Lamothe is a defense reporter at The Washington Post. I'm Sean Ramos-Firm. It's Today Explained. Today Explained you

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.