Today, Explained - The rise of the introverts

Episode Date: December 7, 2025

Turns out those personality tests you’re taking online are all wrong. This episode was produced by Danielle Hewitt, edited by Jenny Lawton, fact-checked by Melissa Hirsch, engineered by Patrick Boyd and hosted by Jonquilyn Hill. Image credit Khosrork/Getty Images.  If you have a question, give us a call on 1-800-618-8545 or send us a note here.  Listen to Explain It to Me ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Terms and conditions apply. People are super-duper precious about their personality. Pretty much like all the like introvert worst nightmares were played out. It seems like to me of the last five to eight years, everybody in their mama is proclaiming to be an introvert. A few weeks ago, we got a call from a listener named Deliore. It just seems like the introvert thing is a new hot word that everyone is caught on to and is clinging to, even if they don't demonstrate the qualities. And I'm just curious, is that just a personal observation or something other people are seeing?

And also just why? Good question. I gave them a call back. Super crazy. I feel like we're actually homies already because I listen to you so much. Yeah. Hearing your voice. Yeah.

I got this call and I was like, yeah, yeah, let's go down that rabbit hole. Ladell is extremely outgoing. Honestly, same. And he does a good job of putting into words what being an extrovert feels like. Excessive solitude physically drains me. If we get snowed in in Virginia for four days, day three, I'm going somewhere. I'm going to, you know, whether it be just a grocery store, it's not even all about people all the time. This interest in personality types

began the way a lot of interests do. He was dating someone who was super into it. I was in a relationship with someone who was an introvert and they would be reading this book and really like going, oh my gosh. And so I'm like, what is this book? So I got the name of the book, Introvert Advantage, and I didn't realize when I got it

that it would teach me so much about myself. The relationship ended, but his commitment to the introverts in his life is still going strong. I may just suggest instead of hanging out for five hours, we hang out for an hour and a half. Or I may text one of them, an introverted friend under the table and be like, are you good? You mentioned that the way we talk about introverts is changing. What have you noticed? How has it changed? I feel like every now and again online, a word just takes off. Recently, it's been like diabolical.

Everything we don't like is diabolical, right? And I was starting to feel like introversion was like that in that as a mass collective, we kind of learned a new word, and it sounded cool and intriguing and interesting and, like, added, you know, a mystique to us. So people were just clinging to it without really knowing the characteristics of an introvert. I was seeing people who I know who I wouldn't consider to be an introvert proclaiming that they were. And I'm like, you know, wow, like, you're out every weekend, like swinging from chandeliers. Like, you're probably not an introvert, like, but I'm not so arrogant that, you know, I feel like I can tell anyone what their temperament is.

I respect everyone's take on it, of course. So if you could ask an expert, you know, any kinds of questions about this, what are some of the things you'd ask them? Do we shift towards the introverted side of the spectrum as we age? That sounds like it would be natural maybe, but I don't know. I definitely feel like the pandemic definitely amplified it to the point where I even hear people say crazy things like, I miss the pandemic. And I'm like, you miss being locked in the house without the freedom to move around and do things. Like, that sounds extreme. I feel like society as a whole is growing more disconnected,

and I kind of hate that for us. I truly believe life is a team sport. It's important to be self-aware in terms of your introversion, and how you handle people so that they're eager to stick around and sustain those relationships. I'm John Glyn Hill, and this week on Explain It to Me from Vox, we're going to get Liddell some answers. What does it actually mean to be an introvert? Are we more introverted than we used to be?

And is it possible to change? Would you describe yourself as an introvert or an extrovert? Neither. Can you do that? Is that legal? Yeah. This is Shannon Sowers-Avala. She's a professor of psychology at the University of Kentucky, and she researches personality.

It's a little bit of a misconception because we think that we can put ourselves into these, like, discrete categories, but most of the things that we use to describe people are on continua. So you can be more towards the introverted side or more towards the extroverted side, but this is a continuum with different poles. People that are more on the introverted side, they're going to be. less stimulation, they're going to have less sort of energy, and they're going to derive less energy from social situations, whereas people on the more extroverted side are going to be more excitable, have more positivity, and tend to derive a lot of energy from social situations.

One of our listeners called in because he suddenly noticed so many more people identifying as introverts on social media. And he wondered if it might have something to do with the pandemic. The pandemic is kind of a huge life event, right? That really changed a lot of our behavior. And, you know, I would consider myself, like, pretty staunchly in the middle of the continuum, extroverted in some situations, introverted in others. And I remember going out to dinner when we were first allowed to go out to dinner and being like, man, I got weird. Yeah. So I think like any skill. When we are out of practice, we get rusty. And so I think people may be kind of confusing discomfort and a little rustiness with like, I'm introverted. But I do think that here in the last

decade or so, there's been more recognition of introverts as having qualities that are really desirable. You know what? No one talks about how freaking good introverts. introverts are at networking. It's a whole spiritual filtration system that refuses to let surface-level conversation sit on the same couch as their souls. When it comes to creativity and to leadership, we need introverts doing what they do best. They tend to be more thoughtful, more measured, better listeners, right? And so the world is really, I think, set up to reinforce extroversion, you know,

being the loudest person in the room, shouting your ideas. And so I think there's been kind of this, like, renaissance for introverts. And now people are like, oh, it's okay to identify as an introvert. I'm a proud introvert. And I think that's what we're seeing. Do we get more introverted as we age? Like, I don't know, I'm an extrovert, but I do notice more and more. I'm like, I can stay in and read a book by myself today.

Yeah. So this is actually a really complicated question to answer. So extroversion versus introversion, it can be divided up into what we think of as sub-facets. So it's not just like one global quality, even though that's how we often talk about it. So one thing that does tend to change or increase on average as people age is what's called social dominance.

And this is a facet of extroversion that is the tendency to be assertive and confident. On the flip side, social vitality tends to decrease. And this is like enthusiasm and energy for social situations, kind of like what you're describing. Like, I don't necessarily, I don't have the same promo I used to have. I'm happy to read my book. But what I really want to highlight, though, is that these are on average. And like, nobody is really the average person. This is like when we mathematically sum everybody's kind of change in extroversion. You know, I think we have this urge to put ourselves, like, in these boxes, you know, like, I am an extrovert or I am a introvert. You research personality. Is that how you and your colleagues think about it?

So most things about people are not categories. We're not this or that. It's more of a matter of degree. I think the way we define personality, the way we measure personality, it's really different from how people are talking about their types at a dinner party. It's a really different from what you would think personality is if you took a common personality test on the internet or, you know, through your HR office. I always say that, you know, academic personality science needs like a PR person because we're not really good at spreading the word on what personality actually is. Coming up, some personality PR. Race the rudders.

Raise the sails. Raise the sales. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger. Wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors.

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So I always like to answer this by talking about what personality is not first. People are super-duper precious about their personality. It is their essence. their sense of humor, their tastes, their values. And that's actually not how academic psychologists define personality. Oh.

So people think, oh, it's like the core of me. But really, we define personality as your characteristic or habitual way of acting and thinking. And when you think about like that, it's like mental habits and, you know, behavioral habits. And those are things that we change all the time. I'm curious how you measure personality from that scientific standpoint. Most of the commercial personality tests that people have heard of that they're taking in like HR offices, they're very category based, right? They put you into a type and, you know, that's that. What we use, what we think sort of describes personality in a much more nuanced way is the big five or the five factor model of personality.

these are sort of five overarching traits the first one is openness and this is the degree to which you are interested in new ideas and aesthetics philosophy art versus folks that are more more traditional and like this is how we always do it then you have conscientiousness which is um on a continuum with disinhibition and essentially conscientiousness is like how achievements driving you are how organized how reliable And disinhibition is more like, you know, I kind of act before I think it through. The next is extroversion versus introversion, right? And that's the tendency to be energetic and excitable. Then there's agreeableness versus antagonism. Agreeableness is how oriented you are towards other people, how empathic, how caring, how well you get along with others. The last one is neuroticism, which is on a continuum with. emotional stability and neuroticism is just your tendency to experience strong

negative emotions do you tend to get more upset by you know stressors in the environment do you take longer to calm back down that sort of thing I like to think about the big five you know if you could imagine like a like an audio switchboard with all the little dials that you can kind of push up and down so you might be high in neuroticism and you might be kind of moderate and extroversion and you might be moderate in agreeableness, and you might be high in conscientiousness, and you might be high in openness, I would describe you myself, and the classic high achiever personality. Oh, man, yeah, hi. I relate to that. Are there limits to how we can measure or

define personality? Well, one of the nice things about the big five is that we have tons of really, really good measures of this, right? So if you, if you, you Google personality test, you know, the first two pages of hits are going to be like 16 personalities Myers-Briggs. But if you Google Big Five personality tests, there are free versions of this test where you can get this information. And these are super well validated. They actually predict outcomes, like where you fall on these traits versus like these personality type tests are about as good as predicting career success and relationship satisfaction as your zodiac sign. Why do you think we're so interested in knowing our personality types?

Like, why do we want to put ourselves in buckets so badly? I mean, it's fun, right? Yeah, it is. It is. Right, it's fun. I mean, it's like my Myers-Briggs type is, I don't actually know what the number is, but like colloquially it's the protagonist, which is like so fun, right? That's much more fun than being like, I'm high in neuroticism and I'm moderate and

extroversion, but knowing where you are on those different traits provides you with a lot more nuanced information. And the work that I do in my lab, so I have a research lab at the University of Kentucky, it's a treatment outcome research lab, so I develop interventions. And, you know, for the past 10 years, I've been developing interventions to nudge personality traits. When you're like a type 7, okay, well, where do I start with change, right? But if I'm really high on neuroticism and I want to slide that down a little bit, okay, now I have a really clear goal or you know I'm kind of shy of the the midpoint for the introversion extroversion continuum and I really want to go for a promotion where I have you know I have some leadership

responsibilities and I need to be more up in front of the group like how can I make those shifts to my personality and so the other like big mistake that people think is that personality set and so and you're born with it and you should just like take the test, put yourself in the box, and then you should choose partners and careers based on whatever type you are, when really I think it should be the opposite, right, that you should identify what's important to you, what you value, what important goals you have, and then figure out what are the traits that will help get you there and intentionally cultivate them.

Up next, an introvert tries to try to to reinvent herself as an extrovert. Support for this show comes from Figma. Figma is the collaborative design platform where teams come together to turn ideas into the world's best digital apps, websites, and experiences. Now there's a faster way to bring those ideas to life. Introducing Figma Make, an AI-powered prompt to code tool that helps you turn ideas into something real, fast. Figma Make is a different kind of vibe coding tool.

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But what if you're unhappy with where you're at? Can you actually change your personality? I'm Olga Hazan, and I'm a staff writer at The Atlantic and the author of Me But Better. Olga spent an entire year attempting to do just that. So the year was 2022, and, you know, the pandemic was sort of easing up. people had started socializing again, you know, sometimes in masks, sometimes not. But I kind of had not. I was still pretty much social distancing, pretty hardcore. And a lot of my social connections had kind of evaporated, loosened since the pandemic had started. And I kind of just found myself a little bit lonely, honestly. And so I've been interested in this topic of personality changed just through some other research and writing I had been doing. And I took this personality test that was designed by a psychologist. And it told me that I was in the something like the 23rd percentile when it came to introversion versus extroversion. So I was an extreme

introvert. And especially when it came to being friendly or cheerful. So I was very not friendly and not cheerful. You mentioned, you know, that this was happening during the pandemic, coming off of the pandemic. Can you tell me a little bit more about how the pandemic and social distancing affected you and your introversion? So I think it really hardened my introversion. I did pretty well at social distancing, and I kind of didn't realize how severe the introversion was getting or how much I was sort of like I basically never need to talk to people ever again.

It was like February in D.C., and it was raining, it was like a freezing rain, and, like, there were no leaves on the trees, and I just, like, looked outside, and I wrote in my journal, I feel like nobody really knows me. I was just like, this is bad. I feel like I'm in a gulag or something. So that's when Olga decided to take matters into her own hands. She took all that research she read for her reporting and did her own experiment. She gave herself a series of exercises. She hosted a dinner party. She talked to strangers more.

and she kicked it all off by doing something only the bravest among us do. I just wanted to rip the Band-Aid off and took the most extreme thing possible. She signed up for an improv class. I was terrified. That was one thing. I'm not a natural performer, and I'm also not silly. So that was a challenge for me. But the great thing about improv is that not only does it make you more comfortable interacting with people, but also in doing so in a way that's not scripted at all.

So, like, you and I are both journalists. Like, before each interview, we write out our questions. You know, we go through the list, and then the conversation is done and, like, goodbye. And I was really used to having those kinds of conversations, but I wasn't used to someone saying something to me that was unexpected or asking me a question that was probing or vulnerable and or just having to, like, pivot in the moment through something kind of chaotic. I imagine if you are like extremely introverted doing improv as like, oh, this is a nightmare scenario. Because even, I will say, I've done it before.

And even as an extrovert, it can be a little bit like, oh, what are we, what are we getting ourselves into? Pretty much like all the like introvert worst nightmares were played out every single time in improv. So what were the final results of your experiment? Were you successful? So on introversion in particular, my score went way up. I think it went up to like high or something or like medium high maybe. I don't know. And so the principle behind this personality change is that as you do these activities or whatever challenges, whatever we want to call them, you become more comfortable with it,

just like with anything else, training for a marathon, you know, any other skill you want to pick up. So you become more comfortable with talking to people and with socializing. And then you kind of start to see that as part of yourself. So a lot of the questions will be like sometimes like I enjoy talking to people or like I have fun at parties and I honestly had to answer like yes to a lot of those because I had been doing a lot of those things and I had been having fun. Would you say that you're an extrovert now? I think I'm a lot more extroverted than I thought. I think I maybe just wasn't this hardened introvert, this 23% not friendly, not cheerful. I think I was sort of like taking that initial test based on how I feel when I'm about to leave the house and like Netflix and the couch are calling and not.

And there are days like that. They do exist. But not like how I feel when I'm actually there or like afterward where I'm like, oh, that was so funny what that person said. Or like, that was so cool. Or that person's job is so neat. Like you don't think about those positive things that come out of social interaction. You just think about how hard it is to, like, go and find parking or whatever. To me, it really showed how, like, you're not necessarily stuck with what you were given

or the story that you're telling yourself about your personality traits, that by kind of loosening what your definition of your personality is, you can actually kind of explore more of the world and possibly find things that are more fulfilling on the other side, even if it's not totally in line with your original version of your personality. So we've talked a lot about going from introversion to extroversion, but what do you think extroverts can learn from introverts? There are strengths to being introverted and to being contemplative and having quiet moments to yourself and being happy,

just being by yourself and spending time alone, because you are going to have, you know, times in your life when you are solo traveling, or, you know, just doing something that requires, like, deep thought work. Carl Jung, who's, like, one of the psychologists that I write about in the book, once said that there's no such thing as a pure introvert or pure extrovert. Such a person would be in the insane asylum. And, you know, that's extreme, but that's, like, sort of true, is that, like, there's definitely elements to both sides of that trait that are worthwhile.

That's it for this week. Thanks again to Liddell for calling in with your question. Speaking of which, we're working on an upcoming episode about AI abundance. It's the idea that AI can actually free us up to work less and live more. We want to know, if you suddenly had a lot of time on your hands, what would you do with it? Call us at 1-800-8-5-45 or email us at AskVox. at Vox.com. If you like this show, you should consider becoming a Vox member. Members get a ton of exclusive perks, like a version of this podcast with no ads.

And, most importantly, you help support our work. Sign up now and you'll get more than 30% off annual membership. My mom did it, and she's a very smart lady who knows a good deal when she sees one. Be like my mom. Go to Vox.com slash members to join. This episode was produced by Danielle Hewitt. It was edited by Jenny Lawton, fact-checked by Melissa Hirsch, and engineered by Patrick Boyd. Miranda Kennedy's are executive producer.

I'm your host, John Glyn Hill. Talk to you soon. Bye. Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odu, it's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier,

CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part, Odu replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odo for free at Odu.com. That's ODOO.com. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers,

a network of 130 million of them, in fact. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company, seniority, skills, and did I say job title? See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started at LinkedIn.com slash campaign.

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