Today, Explained - The true story of The Woman King

Episode Date: September 16, 2022

The historical epic The Woman King, in theaters today, is set in the Kingdom of Dahomey in the 19th century. The kingdom’s elite all-female fighting force was evidence of its enlightened attitude to...ward women, but its participation in the transatlantic slave trade is a stain on its history. Director Gina Prince-Bythewood and economist Leonard Wantchekon, a descendent of the women fighters, explain. This episode was produced by Avishay Artsy, fact-checked by Tori Dominguez, engineered by Paul Robert Mounsey, and edited by Amina Al-Sadi and Noel King, who also hosted. Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained   Support Today, Explained by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 When the wind blows, our ancestors push us to march into battle against those who enslave us. I went to see a movie last Friday, The Woman King. Loved it. The ancestors would love it. Today, it's out in theaters. It's set 200 years ago in the West African kingdom of Dahomey, which was a real place. Viola Davis plays a ferocious general named Naniska, who leads an army of women soldiers against European slavers and an enemy African tribe. We fight not just for today, but for the future.
Starting point is 00:00:34 We are the spear of victory. We are the blade of freedom. The woman warriors of Dahomey were also real, as is this uncomfortable truth. Their kingdom got rich in part by capturing and selling its enemies into slavery. Coming up on Today Explained, the director tells us how she balanced a history that is both triumphant and tragic. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points.
Starting point is 00:01:12 Visit superstore.ca to get started. It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King. The director Gina Prince-Bythewood has proven herself in Hollywood. Love in basketball, beyond the lights, the old guard. But when she pitched The Woman King, it was almost like Hollywood executives forgot her distinguished resume. She wanted to make an action movie starring Black women, set two centuries ago, where men are barely on screen, and Hollywood was like... You know, Hollywood is a fascinating place in that people speak on wanting original stories, yet they continually fall back on what's familiar, because what's familiar is safe. There's a proven track record to that. So when you come out with original content,
Starting point is 00:02:06 which me as an audience, that's what I get excited about, it's a harder sell. It's certainly a harder sell when it's a movie, a historical epic, which is absolutely a genre that's been dominated by male stories and male heroes and male protagonists and villains. And certainly we've never seen this with Black women before. And so what was your attitude going into the room with people who you knew might be skeptics?
Starting point is 00:02:39 I would like to say my enthusiasm and passion for this. When I read the script, I saw the movie. And I feel like I'm my first audience. And the movie in my head was exactly the type of movie I would die to see. And so it was bringing that passion into the room. But not only the passion, but the swagger of everything I'm telling you I want this film to be, I can do. Because my body of work has shown you that I can do that. You really want to do this, kid? And certainly having the old guard on my resume at that point was absolutely helpful in their belief that, yes,
Starting point is 00:03:13 she could do the action and do these big set pieces well. People discount what passion can do when you go into a room. You're convincing somebody to give you millions of dollars. They have to be inspired and excited by your vision. And so that's really what I came in with. This is a movie that is based on real historical events and a real historical kingdom, which of course makes things more complicated. When you approach this movie, did you have some amount of trepidation about how you would make the history come alive and how you would deal with some of the historical challenges? I would say it wasn't intimidation. I think because historical epics
Starting point is 00:03:59 are some of my favorite films, you know, Braveheart. That they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom! I've watched it a hundred times. I love that film, Last of the Mohicans, Gladiator. You know, these films that are set in a true time in history, and yet there is some inventiveness in terms of the characters
Starting point is 00:04:22 and your ability to tell personal stories within that. So I knew going in the balance that I wanted to have and the confidence in that and the excitement in being able to tell the story of this kingdom. Like that's that extra thing to know that these women were real, that this David and Goliath battle that they had was real. And the stakes were real and the reasons for it were real, that this David and Goliath battle that they had was real, and the stakes were real, and the reasons for it were real, that this kingdom was real, that the politics and gender politics were real. I just kept getting more excited as I got deeper into the research, because I saw more truth and more authenticity that I could pour into the story. A lot of the movies that you seem to admire, those movies center men. They always have, right? And this is one where you just were not doing that. Viola Davis is not just the star,
Starting point is 00:05:26 she's the beating heart of the movie. The rest of the main cast are all women. Did you know you were making something that would be game-changing if it was done right? I guess I looked at it as, I knew we were doing something that hadn't been done before. That was exciting as an artist to be able to do that. And I knew because of that and who was fronting this movie, who were the heroes in this movie, I feel like I had more pressure, and I'm saying self-imposed pressure, on getting it right. I needed people to be able to go to this movie and just be enthralled by these warriors.
Starting point is 00:06:00 When I started watching it as we're cutting it together, the smiles I would find myself doing when I'm just looking up on the screen and seeing these characters, it's like, oh, we did this. And I get to watch this anytime I want. I get to turn on our editing monitors and watch these warriors, these Black women being heroes. And that was really exciting.
Starting point is 00:06:30 I want to ask you about the history here, because some of this is difficult. There was a kingdom of Dahomey. And one of the ways in which this kingdom became very wealthy was that they did capture their enemies and sell them to European slave traders. A lot of this was going on in West Africa at the time. And that is a very difficult thing for a filmmaker, I would imagine, because your heroes are part of a kingdom that is doing this thing that is appalling and historically one of the most terrible things that has ever happened. How did you wrestle with, my good women are part of a kingdom that is doing
Starting point is 00:07:06 this awful thing? It was the knowledge that at the time that we're setting this, that the kingdom was at a crossroads and the legit crossroads of half of its kingdom and its people wanting to abolish being a part of the trade and the other half wanting to keep it because it gave them their wealth and being able to use these women as that voice of wanting to change. And so being able to deal with, yes, they did this, but there was a fight and a young king, Gezzo, was in the middle of this trying to decide which way to go and ultimately deciding to go against it, knowing that that could affect his reign, which, you know, for me personally, I find heroic in that he potentially gave up his power to do the right thing.
Starting point is 00:07:58 You're referring to a theme throughout the movie, but there's one very vivid scene in which Viola Davis's character, who plays the General Nanniska, tries to convince the king, played by John Boyega, to give up the slave trade and instead make money off of the production of palm oil, which is something the kingdom of Dahomey has a lot of. And he says, slave trading is why we prosper. And she says, but at what price? Historically, did that conversation happen? Oh, absolutely. They had the potential and they ultimately did go to palm oil production as their main source of income. Did it happen specifically with Neniska? Neniska is an amalgamation of a number of different people, but that is the direction that they ultimately went to. This was the story. And there were moments where some felt it would have been
Starting point is 00:08:51 easier to not focus on that and make it easy. And I wasn't going to do that. We had to be truthful. Okay. Okay. There was so much about this movie visually. The costumes, the landscapes, the weapons, the architecture, the music, the dancing. You created an intensely convincing world, and that's a very hard thing to pull off. authentic as a portrayal of Dahomey in 1823? And how much did you say, no one except historians really knows what it looks like. We can take some creative liberties. Tell me about the decisions that went into that. The decision was immediate. We are going to be as authentic as possible. And that meant me and all my department heads were tasked with doing a deep dive into the research. And foremost, it was separating truth from those who had, you know, a definitive reason to make us seem like savages and really take away our humanity in the way that they described the kingdom and the people and what they were about and the things that they did
Starting point is 00:09:59 with those who didn't, who were telling the truth. We found these couple journals written by missionaries who made the trip, and that was invaluable. And this was pre-photographs, which makes it difficult. So it was great, though, to be able to look at the different sources and piece together what they would have worn, the social dynamics, how they had that equality within the council because of the two gods that were their main deities which were a man and a woman and so having that equality within the palace despite the patriarchy outside of the palace how the women trained the fact that they created these
Starting point is 00:10:41 elaborate choreographed dances and the fact that the palace, some of the palace is still there. And so we were able to recreate exactly what the palace would look like. It was we have to do this the right way. We have to be authentic. We are telling the truth. Again, it's not a documentary, but we are world building and we're putting an audience into this world that they haven't seen before. And so you need to be as accurate as possible.
Starting point is 00:11:15 What do you want your audience to take away from this? There's a couple things, certainly. I want all audiences to be able to come out of here and just think, I just saw an incredible movie and incredible warriors, and it doesn't matter that they didn't look like me. I just saw them. I saw this woman. I felt it.
Starting point is 00:11:39 And I want women to be able to watch this and be inspired and understand that we have an innate warrior within us. I wish I had this when I was little because I was an athlete. And the amount of times I was told something was wrong with me because I like sports and didn't want to wear dresses and just gravitated towards athletics to normalize being a warrior and normalizing who these women were and not just that they were badass but also that their vulnerability was a strength that the sisterhood that depth of living and dying for each other I want women to feel that and I want black women to be able to see themselves in a way that we've never seen ourselves and take that in, ingest it, and walk differently.
Starting point is 00:12:35 Coming up, how close does the movie get to the real kingdom of Dahomey? And we talk to a descendant of the woman warriors. back in your pocket. Ramp says they give finance teams unprecedented control and insight into company spend. With Ramp, you're able to issue cards to every employee with limits and restrictions and automate expense reporting so you can stop wasting time at the end of every month. And now you can get $250 when you join Ramp. You can go to ramp.com slash explained, ramp.com slash explained, R-A-M-P.com slash explained.
Starting point is 00:13:37 Cards issued by Sutton Bank, member FDIC Terms and conditions apply. in Vegas. That's a feeling you can only get with BetMGM. And no matter your team, your favorite player, or your style, there's something every NBA fan will love about BetMGM. Download the app today and discover why BetMGM is your basketball home for the season. Raise your game to the next level this year with BetMGM, a
Starting point is 00:14:19 sportsbook worth a slam dunk. An authorized gaming partner of the NBA. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge.
Starting point is 00:14:43 BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King, and I promise you, you cannot watch The Woman King with all of the faces and the landscapes and the incredible fight scenes without thinking, what was the kingdom of Dahomey really like? Leonard Wachikhan is an economist. He teaches at Princeton. And he served as an advisor on the woman king because he is originally from Benin, where the kingdom of Dahomey used to be. He studies the Agoge, the woman warriors, who are also sometimes called the Dahomey Amazons.
Starting point is 00:15:24 And he is a descendant of one of those women. That is mind-blowing, Leonard. Growing up in Benin, as you did, did you learn about the kingdom of Dahomey? Did you learn about the women soldiers? Yes, yes. In fact, three things. So first of all, one of the training centers of Amazon was actually about one mile from my hometown. Wow.
Starting point is 00:15:49 And I realized later on that someone from my extended family called Essay was actually a female warrior. And like her son, called Narcisse, who was, you know, the enforcer, because, you know, I was not always well behaved. So he's the one who my mother sent me to him to yell a bit at me and stuff.
Starting point is 00:16:16 I realized that Narcisse was the eldest son of Eseye. So in fact, I grew up in an environment that had an Amazon. There is another town I realized much later on, like three miles from where I was born, that also had an Amazon, who was known in the whole region as one of the leaders of anti-colonial movement, domestic, I mean, like in Benin around 1940s.
Starting point is 00:16:45 So yes, I knew that it was there, but it's only recently through the research that I'm doing that actually got names realized that have neighbors or neighbors of my grandparents who were actually female warriors. And it just made me very, very proud
Starting point is 00:17:03 and even more determined to be able to tell their story. You know, like food, like whether the king go to battle with the warriors, what the female warriors wear, and details that a typical historian doesn't get into. And you need that for the movie to be as accurate as possible and to reflect the local history, the local culture as possible. The movie begins in 1823. How did this kingdom get to be a kingdom? And who lived there? What was it like? It was a group of princes from a place called Taddo who moved out of the kingdom and decided to settle in various parts of the current Benin.
Starting point is 00:18:07 And those who came to the Abomey Plateau, where the kingdom was set up, they developed into an extremely sophisticated and very modern state, particularly under King's Gezo, that was portrayed in the movie. And they fought for their independence and their sovereignty against
Starting point is 00:18:30 other local states. And then in that process, the women, you know, the Amazons, played a major, major, major role. And they have a very relatively thriving economy. Obviously, they were involved in the slave trade, but also there were plantations,
Starting point is 00:18:46 and they have some industry, they have international trade. But what was so distinguished is also the culture, the music, the arts. And very recently, there were some artifacts stolen by the colonizer that was in Paris for centuries that was brought back. It was highly, highly sophisticated.
Starting point is 00:19:12 What we are not seeing are actually the fact that there were normal girls growing up in environments where women were brought up to do anything, involved in agricultural activities and cultural activities, and they play with boys in a very gender-inclusive environment. And that's what allowed many of them to be very assertive, very strong, very independent. And that's what led to the institution itself. It led to the idea of setting up an army for just women, where through many rituals they learn to be fearless
Starting point is 00:19:55 and they learn to be extremely brave. All our lives they tell us stories about the Agodji, that you have magic. Fighting is not magic. It is skill. We will see if you have any. What we are not seeing as well is what they became afterwards, after they led the army.
Starting point is 00:20:20 You know, they were entrepreneurs, they were religious leaders, they were community leaders, and they were mothers and cultural icons. That's what might be missing a little bit. We want to focus solely on violence and war. This kingdom sounds rather remarkable in what it allowed women to become in the 19th century. Absolutely. And then, for instance, the government of Gezo were very gender inclusive.
Starting point is 00:20:48 Women were not just allowed into the army, were allowed in every level of government. There's an interesting moment in the movie where one of the king's wives tells him, we have what we have because of the slave trade. Essentially, this is why the kingdom of Dahomey is rich. Is that accurate? Is the slave trade how Dahomey grew into a very wealthy kingdom? Yes and no. Yes, because, you know, the slave trade
Starting point is 00:21:27 for at least a century was a major part of the local economy. But at the same time, particularly in Loikengazo, there were aggressive push to diversify the economy by bringing like pan oil, coconuts, banana, other agricultural products that could be sold internationally, particularly to Europe.
Starting point is 00:21:52 And besides that, you know, there was a major conflict within the government over the continuation of the slave trade. And on one side, there were clear attempts to, if not to end it altogether, was actually to scale it down significantly. And we also need to stress the fact that by the time of Gezo, the process of getting slaves and export them has become less centralized.
Starting point is 00:22:23 Something to stress as well is that Daomei accounted for 5% of overall slave exports, you know, about 600,000 people out of 13 million. So that's big. But, you know, it shows that Daomei was not the epicenter
Starting point is 00:22:43 of African slave trade. So I'm not trying to diminish the importance of slave economy, but I wanted to put it in perspective and be slightly more nuanced by stressing the fact that, particularly mid-19th century, there was serious internal conflict about ending the slave trade. What do you think is the legacy of these women? What do you think we can learn from them? Yeah, so, okay, two things.
Starting point is 00:23:26 So I think the first thing we'll learn is that there are ways to overcome a gender gap. And there are two ways. One is belief that there is nothing intrinsically weak about a woman. So they can do anything, including the riskiest and the most challenging job, which is actually the frontline fighter. And this belief is not enough. You need to set things up, the education policy, job opportunities and laws to allow them to do exactly that. You know, for instance, well, maybe those women coming in
Starting point is 00:24:06 did not have all the attributes to be as a fierce warrior as men, but then through the training, they did exactly that. This is important. It has a lot of implication. For instance, if you will be gender gap in mathematics, well, you know, set up all female elite math school, you know, and then before you know, that's it.
Starting point is 00:24:25 They are equal. You know what I mean? So I think this is for me a lesson to be learned. And the second one is that we have to be open-minded and hold the view that great things may happen outside where we are. People tend to think that Europe brought gender equality in Africa only to realize that, in fact, Europe was way behind some part of Africa
Starting point is 00:24:53 on issues of gender equity, that Europe had a lot to learn even today, and we also have a lot to learn today from the past. And I'm very, very happy that the movie came out to show exactly that. Leonard Wanchikon at Princeton. He's working on a book about the Agoge.
Starting point is 00:25:19 Today's show was produced by Avishai Artsy and fact-checked by Tori Dominguez. It was engineered by Paul Robert Mouncey. Amina El-Sadi edited the show. It's Today Explained. I'm the Other Woman King. Bye.

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.