Today, Explained - Top Fun: Oscars vs. blockbusters

Episode Date: March 12, 2023

Huge hits like Top Gun: Maverick and Avatar: The Way of Water got nominated alongside Tár. In this episode of Into It, which is now available twice a week, Vulture’s Joe Reid explains the on-again, off-again relationship between the Oscars and the box office. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, it's Noelle. My friend and yours, Sam Sanders, is the host of Vox's Into It. And on a recent episode, Sam asked a question that I think about not infrequently this time of year. So it's Oscar season, and we've been wondering why blockbusters don't win Academy Awards. I saw Avatar, SeaWorld, along with a billion other people. And while audience enthusiasm doesn't make a great movie, it doesn't make a movie not great, right?

Anyway, here's Sam with an honest attempt to answer the question. Today, we're going to look back and talk about the Oscars' complicated relationship with the blockbuster. To start, let's go to SNL. It's time for the big Hollywood quiz. Here's your host, Jack Del Mar. There was this SNL skit from a few weeks ago. Bowen Yang plays the host of this, like, daytime TV quiz show, and Bowen's character

gets to this question in the sketch that perfectly captures a problem the Oscars have had to deal with for a while. Great. These are all about awards

sticking with the 2020s. This film, written and directed by Sarah Pauly, has been nominated for Best Picture this year. No one? I'll give you a hint.

It has an all-female cast featuring Oscar winner Frances McDormand. No one can answer the question. 80 for Brady. No. Anyone else? Can you give us a hint? It's Women Talking. Be more specific.

No, that's the title. Women Talking. It's a Talking. Be more specific. No, that's the title. Women Talking. It's a wonderful film. Do you all watch TV? And I mean, it's funny, but also it's true. I mean, I only know that Women Talking exists because I live in Los Angeles and cover the entertainment industry for a living.

The Oscars have gotten flack for this for some time now. Seems like every year they nominate a bunch of movies for Best Picture that very few people have actually seen. And I mean, sometimes blockbusters do get a Best Picture nomination. Top Gun Maverick and Avatar this year. The first Black Panther a few years ago. But even when those blockbusters get a Best Picture nomination, they rarely win. I want to talk about this, how it happened, why it happens,

and whether this phenomenon is good or bad for the Oscars, for filmmakers, for us. So I called up Joe Reed. I am the co-host of the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast. I'm a contributor to Vulture's movie awards coverage, and I am a senior writer at primetimer.com. All right, the Oscars are this weekend, and usually, Joe, I'm quite bad at making Oscar predictions. Like, I don't even fill out the little forms when I go to watch it with friends.

I don't do it because I'm bad at it. But this year, I can, I think, based on historical data, make one prediction and put a lot of money on it. Here it is. Tell me what you think. All right. I think Top Gun Maverick will not win Best Picture this Sunday, in part because of how successful this film has been at the box office. Do you support this wager? I support this wager. I think this wager will get you a return on it. You will get your money back and then some.

The rationale behind it makes me want to sort of like pipe up and quibble a little bit just because I do think there's this sense of, and you've heard it echoed from a lot of people, including upcoming Oscar host Jimmy Kimmel, this idea that the Oscars are somewhat sort of hostile to movies that are popular, that are sort of broadly popular. This is a night for positivity, and our plan is to shine a light on a group of outstanding and inspiring films, each and every one of which got crushed by Black Panther this weekend. I think there is some, as with a group of outstanding and inspiring films, each and every one of which got crushed by Black Panther this weekend. I think there is some, as with a lot of these sort of notions that catch on,

there is some truth to that, and I think it doesn't go the full way. I think there's a couple angles to that, one of which is the notion, the kinds of movies that are blockbusters now is different than what blockbusters were even in, like, the 80s and 90s.

I grew up with, like, Forrest Gump, Gladiator, these films that were blockbusters and also Critical Darlings. And you know what a blockbuster is now? It's a Marvel movie. That's the thing. Blockbuster now is almost two definitions. A blockbuster is how much money a movie has made. But also, a blockbuster is, it's a marvel movie that's the thing blockbuster now is almost two definitions a blockbuster is how much money a movie is made but also a blockbuster is like a genre of movie that

is action blockbuster right big special effects heavy action guns uh you know weaponry superheroes that's a that's a genre type and that's the thing that has changed because back in the stat that I bring up a lot and the stat that I think a lot of Oscar sort of nerds bring up a lot, and I think with good reason, is 1979. Best Picture winner is Kramer versus Kramer. It is a movie about a couple getting divorced and a guy sort of Dustin Hoffman coping with the idea of being a single father. You know, I had a lot of time to think about what does it make somebody a good parent, you know? It has to do with constancy. It has to do with patience. It has to do with listening to them. It has to do

with pretending to listen to them when you can't even listen anymore. And the winner is Kramer vs. Kramer. It was the Oscar winner for Best Picture. It was also the number one movie at the box office in America that year. I had no idea that Kramer vs. Kramer was the number one movie.

Exactly. It came out. Exactly. $106 million in 1979 money. That's a lot of money. 1988, Dustin Hoffman once again. Apparently America couldn't get enough of Dustin Hoffman. Number one movie in America is Rain Man,

which is a movie about an autistic man and his brother sort of taking a cross-country trip. 82, 82, 82. 82 what? How much is this? Toothpitch. autistic man and his brother sort of taking a cross-country trip. 82, 82, 82. 82 what? How much is this? Toothpitch. And the winner is Rain Man, Mark Johnson producer.

And that makes $172 million in 1988 money. And because of TBS, and because of TBS, in my childhood I watched that film 27 times. Absolutely. It was always on TBS. Always, yes. A big, big 27 times. Remember how it was always on TBS? Always, yes. A big, big television movie. Speaking of Tom Cruise, Tom Cruise, our maverick himself.

And while that was all happening, of course, like, Star Wars was redefining the blockbuster, and all these other, like, action blockbusters are also happening, but the American movie public would see both, right? They would see the domestic drama enough to make it over $100 million. They would see the action drama enough to make it over $100 million. They would see the action drama.

And then so the Oscars, I think of the two, it's the American movie-going public whose taste has changed rather than the Oscars. Yes, okay. We'll still award a domestic drama. We'll still award a movie about a man taking a cross-country trip

with his autistic brother. But they're not blockbusters anymore. Right. The public isn't going to see them in those kind of numbers. I want to get into the reasons why for that but i want to first set up this blockbuster conundrum of the oscars for folks who probably don't think about it which is most people uh turns out the oscars for gosh at least a decade maybe two decades now, have increasingly been nominating movies for best picture that have really, really, really, really low box office takes.

And then the biggest blockbusters that make the most money are kind of likely to get snubbed. And it's such a pronounced thing that according to your data, since 1977, only five movies that led the box office the year of their release also won Best Picture at the Oscars. Right. That's wild. What are those movies first? It's, well, Kramer vs. Kramer and Rain Man, which I mentioned. Forrest Gump, which you mentioned in 1994, made $329 million domestically. Titanic, of course, which set records and swept the Oscars in 1997 or for 1997.

And Lord of the Rings Return of the King, which was, of course, the last of the three Lord of the Rings trilogy that Peter Jackson made in 2003, made $377. The one with like 18 endings, right? Exactly. It had like 18 endings. God, that movie. Anyhoo, go ahead. $10 million for every ending of that movie. So it really added up by the end there. And so, yeah. So since then, you've had some blockbuster, like again, big action blockbusters that made a ton of money, like the first Avatar in 2009, right? Mad Max Fury Road, Black Panther, the first Black Panther, all Best Picture nominees, but they don't win.

They lose out to smaller movies. And it's – you see like it's a polarization thing almost, right? Where like the Academy as an organization feels this pressure. They don't want to be obsolete. They don't want to be seen as obsolete and out of touch. I think they still want to be seen as – I don't think they mind when they're called snobby. I think there is something about the Oscars that I – Well, they want to be snobs.

I want them to be snobs. I think that's why we have the Oscars. Otherwise, we just have a very, very long People's Choice Awards. Like their taste should be better than my taste. Right. It should be – and I think part of the reason why we celebrate when our faves win the Oscar is they've grabbed a little bit of the attention and the respect from this like often fusty old, you know, organization and you've made them pay attention to you in a little bit. So that's the satisfaction of the Oscars. But I also think, especially when they

talk about like TV ratings, they want, they don't want to get too far away from the kinds of the – at least having some movies on the Best Picture lineup that will draw people in. The common sort of wisdom has been for the longest time, I think since those Titanic Oscars, that the highest rated Oscar ceremonies are the ones where the box office totals of the Best Picture nominees are higher. And that is a thing that like was true was true, I think, for a time and isn't necessarily true maybe anymore, or at least not as true as it used to be. I think this year will be a very interesting case. Well, this year is interesting because it's like, you know, we talk about how blockbusters don't get enough love

from the Oscars in the last several years. But turns out this year they nominate Top Gun Maverick, which made more money than God. It seems as if they kind of get it, or at least they're trying to speak to the problem. Yeah, I think the thing is when there is a movie that makes that kind of money that also gets sort of a minimum level critical support.

I think they are very resistant, and I think with probably good reason, to nominating just any old movie just because it's number one at the box office. They don't nominate a Transformers. They don't nominate most of the Marvel movies because I think there is a significant sort of snobbery against them. I think the Black Panther movies have been particularly sort of artistically appreciated in a way that, and culturally appreciated and sort of have that extra X factor to them that the Oscars have responded to them.

But in general, like there was that big push last year to get Spider-Man No Way Home nominated. And I kind of knew it was like, they're not going to do that. That's not, that's sort of out of their genre a little bit. And I don't know if I would want them to. I liked that movie a lot, but like, I don't know if I would want them to. And so you get instead a movie like Dune, which was the only Best Picture nominee last year to make significant amounts of money. But it also had, there was like, Denis Villeneuve is a very artistic filmmaker and he's

a very sort of like critically embraced filmmaker. So you get that as your blockbuster representative a little bit. This year with Top Gun though, I think it's interesting because we have evidence of how Top Gun did the first time around at the Oscars, both financially and it won Best Song for Take My Breath Away. But it wasn't nominated for Best Picture that year. And it's interesting. So now this year it is. But the ratings for the Oscars for the 86th ceremony are going to end up being like double

what the ratings end up being for this year's Oscars. So it's like... But there's like a whole other wrench in that whole thing because like TV ratings across the board are down as everyone goes to streaming. So it's really even hard to have that conversation. But I think sometimes you'll get people who want to blame the movies for the reason that the ratings are down rather than the thing that you just said, which is that like this has been a trend that's been going on for decades. That like it's just – and there doesn't seem to be anything you can do to reverse it. Last year there were,

I think the Oscars got a little sweaty last year, but some of those like fan favorite moments and best blockbuster award and whatever. And like that ended up, again, 16 million people watched the Oscars, which is more people than watch most things these days, but it's still, again, like it's half the amount of what those ratings

were like in the 80s. I want to ask for you, what was the year of best picture nominations that were most out of touch with like actual box office draws and films people actually watched? Which year had the nominations that were like the most niche WTF, what is this movie situation? I mean, and I say this as somebody who like gravitates to the niche movies anyway, so those tend to be the years where I'm just like, yeah, all right. I think back to 96 where, like, that was the story. The story in 96, which was the year that The English Patient won Best Picture,

which actually got a lot of, like, pop culture. There was that Seinfeld episode about, like, how much Elaine hated The English Patient. How could you not love that movie? How about it sucked? There was a little bit of, like, resentment to the fact that 96th nominees were Jerry Maguire was the Hollywood movie, and then it was four sort of indie movies. It was Secrets and Lies, the Mike Lee movie, which is great.

Shine. What is Shine? Shine was the movie that Geoffrey Rush won the best actor for. We played the pianist who had mental health issues. Oh, the planets, I should forget the planets, of course. Of course, Mercury and Neptune and so forth. The music of the spheres, the music with the food of love. Oh, very gastronomical, isn't it, Gillian? Oh, the food of love, it is, I should forget the planets, of course, of course, Mercury and Neptune and so forth. Oh, the music of the spheres, the music with the food of love. Oh, very gastronomical, isn't it, Gillian?

Oh, the food of love, it is, Gillian. Oh. What does he like when he gets to know you better? Nobody remembers this movie. Okay, good for him, yeah. Good for him, right? He won Best Actor. He beat Tom Cruise for Jerry Maguire.

Probably shouldn't have. Show me the money. I need to feel you, Jerry. Show me the money. Fargo, though, which was like this tiny little indie movie that has become this institution, and then The English Patient. That was the big story that year, was Hollywood kind of crapped out, and the indies came up and sort of took over. And then the very next year was Titanic.

So you almost see this pushback from the Oscars. Somewhat more recently, the 2008 Oscars, which was the year that Slumdog Millionaire won, was the year where The Reader was nominated and Frost-Nixon and Curious Case of Benjamin Button and what was the fifth nominated? Milk, the Harvey Milk biopic. Let me tell you who watched Frost-Nixon.

Who? Nobody. Yeah. Nobody. When the president does it, that means it's not illegal. That was the year that The Dark Knight and WALL-E were sort of in the conversation. Were shut out. And they were shut out.

And so the Oscars responded to that by expanding the Best Picture category. And the next year, you did get movies like, obviously, Avatar was that next year, and Up, and Inglourious Bastards, and District 9, the sort of alien movie. I loved that movie. And that was the first time that, like, a Pixar movie got a Best Picture nomination for Up. But it's interesting because, so, that was ten nominees that year. And most of them, like, about half of them, right, were $100 million or more. And then the next year was kind of a similar split where you had Toy Story 3 and Inception and True Grit and movies that you wouldn't necessarily even think of like blockbusters. But Black Swan made $106 million that year.

King's Speech made $135 million. But reportedly, Winter's Bone was one of the other nominees. And reportedly – Winter's Bone. Right, which made $6.5 million. It was so low-rated. Who was in that movie? Jennifer Lawrence.

Was that Jennifer Lawrence? That was the big Jennifer Lawrence breakthrough movie. Now get in there and get them guts out. I don't want to. Sonny, there's a bunch of stuff that you're going to have to get over being scared of. Reportedly, people at the Academy or ABC or one or the other were so annoyed that this super low-rated movie that nobody had heard of was a Best Picture nominee. That the very next year, they were like, it's not going to be 10 nominees in Best Picture. It's going to be 8 or 9 or whoever.

They made that very convoluted rule where it was anywhere from 5 to 10. And reportedly, they were mad that Ben Affleck's The Town didn't get nominated instead of Winter's Bone. Don't ever feel bad that Ben Affleck's The Town didn't get nominated instead of Winter's Bone. Don't ever feel bad for Ben Affleck. He has the best picture Oscar for Argo. Swimming in Dunkin' money. He's fine. He's doing well. Probably swimming in Dunkin' iced coffee as well.

I wouldn't put it past that guy. As we speak. Yeah, exactly. I want to ask you. Yeah. So when I think of this phenomenon of thecars not really being nice to blockbusters when it comes to best picture yeah when would you say that era began is there a start point is there an origin story of this i don't know if there's any one moment because you look back and

like the traditional sort of wisdom is that the blockbuster era began with Jaws and Star Wars, which was 75 and 77. Those movies were both nominated for Best Picture. Spielberg was snubbed for Best Director for Jaws and he's on camera as being incredibly upset about it. I didn't get it. I didn't get it. I wasn't nominated. I got beaten out by Fellini. I think it's as blockbusters became more and more sort of saturating the marketplace, the fact that like a few of them would bubble up started to seem less and less sufficient for sort of mirroring what the American public's taste seemed to be, right? Where all of a sudden it's like, oh, Black Panther in 2018 gets an Oscar nomination as

like the one big blockbuster movie. And you're like, yeah, but like there are 25 blockbuster movies out there. So people kind of point to it as the Oscars sort of like holding their nose and picking like one blockbuster a year. Here are the nominees for Best Picture. Black Panther. And the Oscar goes to Green Book. Listen, if I ever see the team behind Green Book,

in person, IRL, in the flesh, it's on site. Do you remember, Sam, that red carpet interview? I think after the fact. It was after that ceremony where Spike Lee Sam, that red carpet interview? I think after the fact. It was after that ceremony where Spike Lee was on the red carpet and somebody, it was a British interviewer, asked him what he thought of Green Book. Is there something about Green Book that offends you? This is what I'm trying to get to. Offend? Are you British?

Yeah. Are you British? I am. Let me give you a British answer. It was my cup of tea. Spike Lee is America's auntie. 100%. I digress.

100%. Go ahead. What were we on? We were talking about, oh, blockbuster era, et cetera. Back to your thoughts. Sorry about that. Go ahead. As, like, the 90s rolled into the 2000s and CGI-heavy movies sort of started to dominate the top 10.

That's when you sort of started to see that like the public's taste and the Oscars taste just like really, really started to part ways in a way that isn't great. Like I wish they were more aligned too, but I kind of want the public to maybe like, you know, go see the Fable months, guys. Like it's not going to hurt you. I don't know. But how much of this is also all about streaming? You know, what we've also seen happen in the last several years is genres that used to be reliable hits in movie theaters are now strictly for streaming.

I'm talking about rom-coms. Like, My Big Fat Greek Wedding made like 200 million plus. Yeah. That movie today would go straight to Netflix. Yes. How much of it is we've seen as streaming has risen, a lot of quote-unquote movies for adults don't ever even get to theaters anymore? Well, that is part of it. And the other part of it is that television, sort of the era of prestige television, whatever, however many scare quotes you want to put around that, I'm comfortable with. But this idea that television has raised the bar in quality in terms of not only the people behind the camera making it, but also the stars. There is no real division anymore between movie stars and TV stars, right? They sort of free flow.

Yeah. Meryl Streep is doing TV. Meryl Streep is doing TV. Meryl Streep is doing TV. TV is movies now. Nicole Kidman apparently only signs on for television shows anymore. She's just like – And every show, the wig has to be bigger. That's true.

That's true. But I think so because of that then, that itch that people used to get scratched by going to a movie for adults in a way that doesn't sound porny, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they get that itch scratched now by watching The Last of Us or I mean Mad Men was a decade ago. But yeah, like that kind of thing. And they've almost sort of been trained out of seeing an adult drama at the movie theater. The thing they can't see at home, at least first run, is the Marvel movies, right? And the Top Gun Maverick.

And so that's why those are the movies that draw the big crowds. All right. One more quick break. More with Joe Reed in just a bit. If I were to be mad at somebody for this conundrum, the blockbuster Oscar conundrum, should I be mad at Netflix and streaming? Should I be mad at the viewing public? Or should I be mad at the viewing public or should I be mad at Oscar voters? I'll go back and I'll pick out a certain Academy president and we'll have you direct your anger to them.

Not Cheryl Boone Isaacs because she – She tried. She tried. Hard job. She tried. That woman said dick poop on a nomination morning one day and like rolled with that punch and forever she will be – Wait, really? Yes.

Oh, my God. What? So – Is there a YouTube video of this? The 100 percent is. one day and like rolled with that punch and forever wait really yes oh my god what so is there a youtube video of this the 100 is for achievement in cinematography the nominees are emmanuel lubeski for birdman or the unexpected virtue of ignorance robert yeoman for the grand budapest hotel lukash Jal and Richard Lenschowski for Ida. Dick Poop, Dick Pope for Mr. Turner. And she was standing right next to Chris Pine

in front of God and everybody, and she said it, and she, like, flinched for half a second, and then she moved the heck on, and she was an icon for that one. Also, if there's anyone to be standing next to in a moment of crisis like that, it's Chris Pine. Oh, and Chris Pine no sold the hell out of that. Like his face didn't move. He was a pro.

That man can be a statue when he needs to be as in the entire press run of Don't Worry Darling. Exactly. I digress. I digress. I digress. Yep. All right. So then if we don't really get to blame anybody for this conundrum, should I even see it as a problem? Is it bad that the Oscars have a blockbuster problem?

Does it matter? I tend to not think so because I don't have to care about TV ratings. Like that's not my job. You know what I mean? I am here to – I am somebody who sort of became a fan of the Oscars. The Oscars were very big with me growing up partly because they introduced me to movies that I didn't really always hear about before, right? So I've always appreciated that aspect of the Oscars, that they did kind of point me past the bigger blockbuster movies. I think that's one of the things that they are very helpful for. I think

the part where it becomes a problem is when you get the idea that this is keeping people from watching the Oscars and sort of making the Oscars obsolete. And I think the solution to this, and this is, I don't know if this is a thing that's going to happen or perhaps not happen anytime soon, is let the Oscars, let that contract with ABC expire, let the Oscars air on Netflix or some streaming platform where they don't have to worry about ratings or time limits or whatever, or commercial breaks. Everybody kind of loved that Screen Actors Guild Awards the other night because they were on YouTube. They didn't have to cut anybody's speeches short. They didn't have to air any commercials.

They kind of were on their own vibe and did their own thing. And they were really fun. just sort of accepts the fact that like, you know, the Oscars are the Oscars and people who love them are going to keep watching them. And you don't necessarily have to chase people who liked the flash running through the speed force or whatever with, with the special little, you know, handholding kind of moments, I think. Well, I also think that like the moral of the story of media right now is just like monoculture is gone. Go niche.

Yeah. And it's going to be impossible to make a show, an award situation, anything that appeals to fans of Marvel films and fans of art house. And like, you can't do it. So it's like, yeah,

pick a lane, you know, pick a lane. And I'll say this. And I think it's, yeah. Sorry. Well,

I was going to say, the kind of movie that comes close to bring it back around is Everything Everywhere All at Once, which has- And they kind of got it right with this. Yeah. They have that kind of, there's that comic book-y appeal to it. It's not based on a comic book, but it has that kind of appeal to it. It feels very comic book, yeah. It's about multiverses, but it also has that, you know, artistic flair to it and that emotional

core to it with that family story. And I think sometimes that is what the Oscars will celebrate is when – and then it also made a ton of money is the other thing. Everything Everywhere All At Once was a big hit. And so the Oscars then will celebrate, I think, when art and commerce kind of come together successfully in a movie like that. And I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that being –'m fine with that being like,

you can be a blockbuster, but you also have to have an artistic streak in you or else the Oscars aren't going to go for it. And I'm happy with that. Yeah. I feel like we'd be remiss in this conversation to not talk about the time the Oscars tried to solve their blockbuster problem. They wanted to try an award for quote, outstanding achievement in popular film. What the heck was that all about and did it work? I think it was about that kind of desperation to be able to put Marvel fans into the audience of the Oscars because that's the biggest slice of the movie-going audience at this point. I think they really wanted that. And I think it just came across as pandering. Anybody who was a fan of the movie-going audience at this point. I think they really wanted that. And I think it just came across as pandering.

Anybody who was a fan of the Oscars didn't like this idea that now they were going to hand an Academy Award, the same as all the other ones, to something that was just called a popular movie. How are we defining popular? Is popular a genre? Is there like a minimum level of box office? Like, what did that even mean? And it just felt very obviously

pandering. So there was pushback against it and I think rightly so. In your opinion, what has been the greatest blockbuster best picture snub of all time? And this can be a snub for not being nominated or also a snub for being up for best picture

and then not getting it. I really liked Spotlight, but it beat Mad Max Fury Road. Which one was Spotlight? Spotlight was the one about the reporters at the Boston Globe who uncovered the church sex scandal. Let me tell you, as a former reporter, we don't need no more

damn movies about reporters. We get how it works. You call a bunch of people, and then you write the story. You call a bunch of people, and then you write the story. You call a bunch of people, and then you write the story. Off the record? Off the record, yeah. Mad Max Fury Road was one of the best action films of all time. That's the thing.

That's the thing. And that was the movie of that year. When you look at, like, what was, you know, what's the movie you remember when you look back at 2015? It was Mad Max Fury Road. Like, that was— I watched Fury Road once a year just to, like, get back in that space. It's so beautiful. Just to fire yourself up for the next 11 months.

Yeah, baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. All right, so that one. Okay. My colleague Travis is saying, speaking of blockbusters being snubbed or robbed, E.T. was robbed. Yes. Got beat by Gandhi.

That's a big one. Well, that was the thing with Spielberg, too, for a while, is he kept getting these Best Picture nominations for Raiders of the Lost Ark and Jaws and E.T., and he kept getting beat for Best Picture by... Oh, my God. Yeah. By these other movies.

Can I make a bold statement right here? Make it. Steven Spielberg gives to the Oscars what Beyonce is to the Grammys. I've had this conversation with other people. I want to have it with them, too. Shout out to my friend Katie Rich at Vanity Fair because we have this conversation that like Steven Spielberg is weirdly underrated at the Oscars for a guy who has two Best Director awards. He's strangely – he's snubbed way more often than he's awarded and he's definitely delivered enough fantastic movies that he should be more honored than he is.

This is a lovely way to end a conversation. All conversations should lead to Beyonce. Joe, thank you for this chat. Please come back again soon and talk movies with me. This was delightful.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Sam. Thanks again to Joe Reed. You can read Joe's cheat sheet on how to gossip at this year's Oscars over at Vulture. While you're there,

also check out the winners of Vulture's first ever stunt awards. There's no Oscar for best stunts, so Vulture had to do it.