Today, Explained - Uh-oh, Trudeau!

Episode Date: March 6, 2019

Canada’s prime minister is accused of pressuring his attorney general to go easy on a wealthy corporation, and two cabinet officials resigned in protest. With an election mere months away, can Justin Trudeau survive? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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In 2015, Canada elected a prime minister named Justin Trudeau. And Justin Trudeau, he got so much media attention all across the world. Way more than any Canadian politician could ever dream of. He gives me chills. And he makes me cold. Trudeau is young, he's liberal, he's kind of your Canadian anti-Trump. Many of you know, I am a feminist and proud to call myself one. Trudeau was also pretty good looking, a very nice head of hair. He's no Idris Elba, because that man is gorgeous, but he's attractive.

But these days, Trudeau is once again getting a lot of attention, but not the kind he wants. Justin Trudeau still knows how to work a crowd, but his days as politics Mr. Nice Guy may be gone for good, just as he is campaigning for re-election. Trudeau is caught up in a scandal that is rocking Canadian politics. He's suddenly fighting an uphill battle after a second minister quit his cabinet over a bribery scandal. It involves Libya, charges of corruption, and two members of his cabinet straight up quitting. And it all started with a huge Canadian company that you've probably never heard of. So the company is called SNC-Lavalin, and you have to picture like a very big construction slash engineering firm that's

involved in at least a third of kind of all the federal and provincial infrastructure projects that get built in some capacity in this country. Vashi Capellos hosts Power in Politics, a show over at the CBC. Basically what happened is over the past few years, SNC-Lavalin was facing those criminal charges. But they're accused of bribing officials in Libya under the Gaddafi regime. So they face these charges. They decide to start lobbying the government for what's known as, in the States, a DPA, a Deferred Prosecution Agreement. That's kind of like a plea bargain for a company that is facing criminal charges. So they can avoid the prosecution, and instead,

they agree to pay a big fine or to replace the rod at the top kind of thing, like replace the people who were in power in the company when they were doing all that alleged criminal activity. And as I said, in doing so, they avoid being criminally convicted. I see. So SNC essentially gets in trouble for some shady stuff and they want to settle with the government rather than risk some big devastating criminal conviction. Yeah. So they get caught by the government. They're facing criminal charges here in Canada. And the person who's deciding, the head of the prosecution services here in Canada, basically has to decide what they're going to do with this case. Are they going to go forward with this prosecution and have them face these criminal charges and potentially get convicted and face the consequences of that? Or are they going to pursue a different avenue? So how does that decision get made?

And kind of where does it go after that? So the decision gets made around sometime at the end of the summer and beginning of September. And that is a decision that the director of public prosecution makes. She decides, I'm not going to go this other avenue. I'm instead going to proceed with criminal prosecution. And I'm going to have this company

face the criminal charges, go to trial, and that's where the government comes into this, and that's where the Attorney General Jody Wilson-Raybould comes into this. Jody Wilson-Raybould, tell me a little bit about who she is. So she came into government amid a lot of fanfare. She is a very well-known Indigenous leader in this country. Her father was also a very well-known Indigenous leader. She was courted by multiple political parties to run for them back in 2015. And the Liberals and Justin Trudeau are the ones who

won out and they got her to run. They then appointed her to be Attorney General and Minister of Justice here in Canada. She's the first Indigenous woman to hold that portfolio. So her position was significant and meant a lot to, I guess, the image that the government wanted to portray. I, Jody Wilson-Raybould, do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will truly and faithfully, and to the best of my skill and knowledge, execute the powers and trust reposed And so how does she fit into this? She comes into this case how? She comes into this case because as attorney general, she's the only person who can basically tell the courts, no, you can't do that.

You have to pursue a plea bargain or DPA with this company. She's the only one who has the power to change that decision. So she could give them an out if she wanted to. Exactly. She could totally give them an out. And that's what it appears that many people in government wanted her to do. So what happened? Kind of how does this turn into a scandal? What happens between her and Trudeau? What happened is she decided that she did not want to intervene and tell them to pursue a

plea bargain with this company. And basically, the government and people within the prime minister's office, it's alleged, were not happy with that. And they went back at her and back at her and back at her over and over and over again. And then... Well, back to the breaking news of this hour. Jody Wilson-Raybould is resigning her position in Justin Trudeau's cabinet, resigning as the Veterans Affairs Minister after being demoted from being the Justice Minister, all in light of questions regarding the PMO and its involvement in SNC-Lavalin and an investigation into that engineering firm.

And then she gave this testimony last week before what would be known in the States as like a congressional committee, a house committee, we call it here. She gave this testimony where she described all these meetings she had with these very high players, like right up there in the prime minister's office, his closest aides. She says they're just pressuring her and pressuring her to change her mind. For a period of approximately four months between September and December of 2018, I experienced a consistent and sustained effort by many people within the government to seek to politically interfere in the exercise of prosecutorial discretion in my role as the Attorney General of Canada in an inappropriate effort to secure a deferred prosecution agreement with SNC-Lavalin. And then ultimately she gets shuffled out of her position in cabinet. And according to her, she thinks that's because she wouldn't do what they wanted on SNC. Was this like a national event in Canada where people like

tuned in like they are for the Cohen hearings here? It 100% was. So for example, it was the Cohen hearing that morning, actually. And our network carried that live. And as soon as we went into stuff with this, we switched out of Cohen. We stopped airing Cohen. And we had a massive audience, not only on TV, but online. Canadians were glued to their TV for this testimony. It was jaw-dropping. I can't overstate it. Have you ever seen anything like this covering Canadian politics? Nothing. Nothing even close. So we've got Trudeau on one side allegedly trying to sort of quietly make this case go away. Then on the other side, Wilson-Raybould resigns because she feels like there just shouldn't be a plea deal, that the case needs to go to court. Why would Trudeau want to make the whole thing disappear? So we're starting to get a clearer picture of what his motivation might have been, and it looks like it's to save the jobs involved in all of this. So SNC employs 9,000 Canadians and a whole bunch of other ones indirectly. And it looks like they had been threatening to move their headquarters, let's say, away from Quebec or move jobs away from Canada.

Because as a consequence of being criminally convicted, this company would be banned from bidding on any federal infrastructure projects. And that's like a big portion of their business. So the way in which the prime minister at least has framed it so far is that he was motivated to pursue this, you know, get this case to go away to save the company. And I'll add one caveat to it. The company is based in Quebec and it's hard to describe Canadian politics, but Quebec is sort of, it's a province that can make or break your chances in a federal election. There are over 70 seats there and and they go back and forth between parties, and they definitely vote in blocks. So if you can win Quebec,

you can probably win the federal election. Not exclusively, but you have a really good shot. And if a company like SNC went broke or moved away from Quebec, it appears, according to what we've heard so far before that committee, that the prime minister was worried about the effect on his electoral chances.

How has Prime Minister Trudeau responded to all of this? In various and evolving ways, I would say. So at first, he and his government really dismissed all the allegations. They were like, this is based on anonymous sources. We didn't do anything wrong. Did you or anyone in your office pressure the former attorney general to abandon the prosecution of SNC-Lavalin? The allegations in the Globe story this morning are false.

Neither the current nor the previous attorney general was ever directed by me or by anyone in my office And at the time, Jody Wilson-Raybould hadn't yet resigned from Cabinet, so they were like, her presence in Cabinet, the Prime Minister said, speaks for itself. And basically 24 hours later, she quit Cabinet. So since then, he's very much said that he disagrees with her version of events. And we're awaiting another hearing before the House committee in which we hear from people who worked with him who we expect will kind of defend his version of events. But so far, he's just said he disagrees with it, that they didn't do anything wrong. But there hasn't been really any evidence provided by him to disprove what she's saying. In the end, like, how big of a deal is this in Canadian politics? This is a huge deal.

We've already seen some polling that shows the opposition has definitely gained ground on the Liberals. Justin Trudeau had a lot of personal popularity going into this controversy, and he's weathered a few other ones. But the timing of this so close out from an election, I can't, again, I can't overstate how big of a deal this is. It's really sent kind of shockwaves through Canadian politics and could have a massive impact on what happens in that election. After the break, could this scandal actually cost Trudeau the election that's coming up this year? I'm Sarah Cliff, and this is Today Explained. So what are you up to in California, Sean? There are these dogs I'm hanging out with. One's named Charles and one's named Snowy.

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Did the dogs hear that, Sean? That's G-E-T-Q-U-I-P dot com slash explain. Yeah. Did the dogs get that? Charles, you hear that? I think he just wants to go outside. So what has been the fallout from Jody Wilson-Raybould's resignation? Kind of what happened after that sets things in motion? Yeah, there's been tons of fallout.

And the first big sort of part of that was a guy named Jerry Butts, who's the principal secretary, the top advisor to the prime minister. He isn't just the guy who ran government for the prime minister. He also ran the national campaign the last time around. So he's pretty integral to the way the prime minister does things. He quit. Jerry Butts, who is the prime minister's principal advisor, was until earlier today, has resigned. Hard to overstate what a bombshell this is.

Butts has been a close friend of Truro, going back to their days at McGill University, a major earthquake up here on Parliament Hill today. He insists he did nothing wrong. He's the first one to resign. And then we have Jane Philpott, who is a friend of Jody Wilson-Raybould, a cabinet colleague. She was headed up what's known as the Treasury Board, so does all the money stuff with government. And she had held other big portfolios under this government. And she resigned from cabinet as well. And that's a really significant one because she's not like a player in this controversy at all. She wasn't involved in any of these meetings. But she said when she resigned that she had lost confidence in the way the government had dealt

with this. And she was a really significant player at the cabinet table. She was really well-respected. The prime minister counted on her to fix some really messy files for him. And so her resignation was also a big blow to him and to the government going forward. Earlier today, we actually heard from Trudeau's former top advisor, this guy named Jerry Butts. He was testifying before the House of Commons Justice Committee about whether he pressured Wilson-Raybould to change her mind. He said it was ultimately her decision. They were just offering a second opinion. I said that it was her call, and I knew it was her call.

I have no memory of her asking me to do anything or to speak with staff about any aspect of this file. And then I've heard there's also calls for a criminal investigation. Yeah, the opposition is calling for the RCMP to investigate because there are claims and concerns that this could amount to obstruction of justice, that this could be a problem for the rule of law in Canada because it looks like on the face of it, like you have these political forces trying to tell an independent judicial system what to do. And on the face of it, even though there might be some kind of justification and intricacy and details around it,

that just that sort of broad strokes, it doesn't sit well with a lot of people. And so there is a call for the RCMP, which is like our national police force, to come in and investigate that. So what are Trudeau's more conservative opponents in parliament doing with this? Are they making a big deal? Is the criticism sticking to him? Yeah, they're definitely making a big deal out of this. The interesting part around the question of whether or not this will stick is that I don't think it even matters what the opposition says, because it will stick. It has stuck. It's because it's almost like of his own making, right? It's not as though the Conservatives have unearthed all of this up and are finally holding them to account. No, I mean, this is Jody Wilson-Raybould, a Liberal cabinet minister, Jane Philpott, a Liberal cabinet

minister, exposing the government for all these alleged wrongdoings. So it's coming from within. I think no matter what, because of that, it will stick. The conservatives are certainly, and the other opposition parties are certainly taking advantage of that. But it's not like they have a ton of work to do in order to make that effective. And what about members of Trudeau's own party? What about the liberals? Aside from you have Jane Philpott stepping down,

but are the rest of them sticking with him or thinking about bailing? Where are they at? So in public, for the most part, they're all sticking with him. Behind the scenes from liberals whom I speak with, there's a lot of concern about his leadership specifically on this file. And there are a lot of liberals who are nervous about their own chances in the next election because of what's happened. And there are a few who've spoken out. There are a few have supported, for example, like a call for an inquiry or a more detailed investigation. They're mostly backbenchers. Cabinet so far seems to be sticking with the prime minister,

but I would not be surprised to see another chip fall. So here in the U.S., I find that Trudeau is often touted as this liberal hero. He's an anti-Trump. I've seen memes about how handsome he is. I see him compared to the prince in Little Mermaid. Does that happen in Canada? And is that all ruined now? Yeah, that's a really good question. I don't think it happens nearly to the same degree that it happens elsewhere. I've traveled a lot following the prime minister of various events he's gone to in the States and elsewhere in the world. And for sure, the reception he gets internationally is a lot different than he gets domestically. He does have a high level of popularity here. But what's central to his entire brand when he

got elected was this saying, doing politics differently. So this idea that they're not going to be controlled from the center, domestically. I don't know how much damage it will do. I think that depends where the story goes. But it certainly has hit to the core of what he told Canadians he stood for. The other thing that seems so core to his brand is inclusion and diversity. I remember, you know, I've seen him multiple times talk about how he's a feminist. What does it say that you have Jody Wilson-Raybould, the first indigenous female justice minister, and then Trudeau seems to basically force her out of a job? And another strong woman, Jane Philpott, resigning from cabinet as well. It says something. It's hard to know exactly how much of a hit he'll take on that. But yes, he said he was a feminist.

He made a big deal of, for example, having gender parity in cabinet. And so if you put a lot of significance as a politician on the symbolism of that, you have to be prepared to take the knocks for the symbolism of when they go. And he is definitely taking some heat over that right now. And even from an MP in his own party who quit, for example, she tweeted something along the lines of, when you put strong women in these roles, don't expect the status quo. Almost like a warning signal. So, again, that goes to the heart of his brand. You all have an election coming up in about seven months in October. Do you think Trudeau can come back from this?

I think anything is possible. And I have no idea. I'm sure you guys know from covering elections. Like, six months out, you don't know what's going to happen, right? Things can change. A lot can happen even within the campaign. But I would say from a few of them. We would imagine that they would be testifying. What if more people quit cabinet? And what happens to these two people? Because Jane Philpott and J, if all those concerns are still there three months from now, four months from now, I think it really could be a big election issue. But again, I mean, we still have to hear a lot of other people and get the sort of fulsome nature of the facts before I think we can make that conclusion. Fasci Capello's hosts the power and politics show for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I'm Sarah Cliff, filling in for Sean Ramos' firm while he is on vacation this week.

And this is Today Explained. Whether you live here in the U.S. or abroad in Canada, where I actually grew up, you can order a Quip electric toothbrush in either country. No wonder Quip has thousands of verified five-star reviews and is backed by over 20,000 dental professionals. Quip starts at just $25, and if you go to getquip.com slash explained right now, you get your first refill pack free. That's a refill pack for free at getquip.com slash explained.