Today, Explained - What Russians think of Putin’s war

Episode Date: March 1, 2022

It depends a lot on where they get their news. Meduza’s Aleksey Kovalev reports from Moscow. This episode was produced by Victoria Chamberlin, edited by Matt Collette, engineered by Paul Mounsey, fact-checked by Laura Bullard and hosted by Noel King. Transcript at vox.com/todayexplained   Support Today, Explained by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King. And you are? My name is Alexey Kovalev and I'm the investigative editor at Medusa. Medusa. Am I pronouncing that right? Yes.

Is Medusa, is your organization referring to this as a special operation? No. Vladimir Putin has ordered Russian media to call the war in Ukraine a special operation. Meduza is one of the few independent news websites in Russia. And Alexei talked to me from inside of his home, which is where he is now based, because he could be arrested for not following that directive. Journalists, even with a full proper accreditation, are being arrested and subjected to violence by the police. Vladimir Putin says there is broad public support for his invasion of Ukraine.

Is that what you're seeing? I'm seeing quite the opposite thing. If there is a massive public support, there are no visual clues as to whether it actually is. There are no patriotic outbursts associated with the annexation of Crimea, which was quite visible. What you're not seeing is any visual evidence of people who support the war. Are you seeing visual evidence that people are against this war? Yes, definitely. There are people protesting right now across Russia,

and they have been doing so for days. Net boy here! Net boy here! Net boy here! Despite the very real risk of arrest and detention and violence by the police, I think at this moment the latest figure is 6,000 people arrested. 6,000 people arrested. What do the protests look like? What are people doing and saying? Today, for example, people are laying flowers on this tomb of their known soldier near the Kremlin. And right next to it is a row of stelas

with the so-called hero cities, one of which is Kiev. This is the highest honor bestowed on a city that went through a brutal siege in the Second World War, and Kiev was one of those places, and people are experiencing solidarity

with the Ukrainians by laying flowers to this stela. But most of the time, people are just coming to the town square, some major thoroughfare, like in Moscow, the Tverskaya Street. There's another person being dragged out of the subway here by his face, being dragged by the police, being arrested, crossed up against the vehicle, being frisked. We've seen dozens of people being arrested here over the last 45 minutes.

A lot just doesn't really have time to happen, and people are just immediately whisked away into police vans and carried away. But there have been some significant crowds. Probably the biggest anti-war demo I've seen since 1999 was in St. Petersburg. Who is arresting people at these protests? You know, we have many different kinds of police. And when you're walking through downtown Moscow, their presence is very visible. There are police vans everywhere you go, especially in central streets and squares.

And whenever there is even a lone protester with a placard that says no to war, it attracts immediate attention. And that's basically inviting violence. And so there isn't really much you can do, but people are so desperate that they keep coming out regardless. Alexei, has there been violence? Aside from people being arrested, has the Russian government cracked down on these protests in any way? Well, in many different ways. I mean, people have lost their jobs for speaking out against the war. And there were reports that, you know, students are

receiving emails from their superiors demanding that they take down on the anti-war posts on their social media. And even people who put up a small no to war sign in their residential neighborhoods. And I'm seeing graffiti on the walls that are being scrubbed down as I walk past them by, you know, community services. So it seems like the Russian government's response is to, at every turn, try to keep these protests from happening. Yes, because it insists that it, and it actually demands that this is not war. You know, all the state media are prohibited from calling it war. And now even the censorship ministry is demanding from the last few remaining independent media like ours that we don't refer to this as war. It's, quote, special operation, unquote. And if you do refer to it by any other name, you're just inviting censorship. And that's what's happening. A few news outlets and different websites that are writing commentary

contrary to the demands of the censorship ministry are being shut down and blocked in Russia. I know that in the United States anyway, when the United States is involved in a war, celebrities and cultural figures will often come out and express how patriotic they are. I wonder if you're seeing that at all in Russia. Are there famous Russians, pop stars, movie stars, who are taking the Kremlin's line and saying, Russia should stay united, we have to be patriotic? Or are they dissenting too uh yes of course there are a few um kind of super

patriotic pop stars and film stars uh but they are greatly outnumbered now because most other uh famous bloggers uh musicians uh like nationally recognized nationally famous uh people uh journalists artists um you name it. Basically, every major cultural and scientific figure has spoken out against the war. What happened today is something that could not and should not have happened ever. I plead you to stop military hostilities and start negotiations. Who is Valery Miladze? Oh, yeah.

Yes, Valery Miladze is a famous crooner. He's one of the most beloved pop singers in Russia. If you lost Valery Miladze, you basically lost millions of his fans. Are there many Russians who support

Putin and support this war? Well, these are two different questions. And of course, yes, of course, Putin does enjoy, or at least did, until February 24, because there haven't

been any more recent polls done after the beginning of the war. So we cannot really say how much support Putin still enjoys, especially as people are, you know, people who have never been interested in politics and more like mostly passive supporters, because people really don't know anyone else,

especially if you're not interested in politics and not following news and you're only ever seeing Vladimir Putin on TV. So whenever a pollster calls you and asking if you support him, you just, you just shrug and say, well, I guess. And,

but I expect a lot more people in that category to wake up to the existential threats that Vladimir Putin is to them and to the rest of the world. Because, well, a few brave people actually tried to warn us and the rest of the world. The new trial began for Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny. I'm not afraid of the decision of the court, Russia's federal security service, the prosecutor's office, or anyone else. I'm not afraid because I consider it humiliating to be afraid of all this. One of the ways in which the United States and Europe are trying to put pressure on Russia is by instituting economic sanctions.

Are you witnessing in Moscow anything in the vein of bank runs or empty grocery store shelves, anything that might indicate economic pain, which the U.S. believes will help turn Russians against Putin and against this war? Well, my own salary has just devalued in two. And that's even before the Moscow Stock Exchange opened. Devalued by half? Yeah. Oh, dear.

Yeah. And yeah, there are bank runs everywhere. I mean, you'll have to stay in line to the nearest ATM for two and three hours. If you're lucky enough, you'll get some cash, but no currency. You can't get any foreign currency anymore in Moscow or elsewhere. So yeah, it's terrible. It's going to be the sharpest economic downturn that we've seen since probably 1998 when we had the last major recession.

Obviously, no matter, regardless of our position or attitude to this war, we're all going to suffer terribly. And especially the millions of Russians below the poverty line, I mean, it's going to be a catastrophe. People are going to get hungry and, you know, the physical and mental health will decline for millions of people. risk. They can be arrested, they can be disappeared, they can be detained, they can lose their jobs, as you said. Thousands of people are taking that chance now. What do you think has changed? I don't think there is a single family in Russia that doesn't have relatives or, you know, friends or colleagues or whatever other, you know, personal ties you can have with a neighboring nation. And when you're looking at these videos, I'm looking at those videos of a major beautiful city of Kharkiv

being indiscriminately bombed with multiple rocket launches, which is a war crime by any means. When you're looking at those TikTok videos where people are recording those incoming rockets, they all are swearing in Russian because it's as much as their mother's language as it is mine. So it's an indescribable strategy. I can tell you when I'm looking at those videos of, you know, bombs and shells falling on Ukrainian cities, I see Moscow because they look exactly the same like Moscow.

You know, all those identical rows of, you know, residential tower blocks arranged in the same, you know, centrally planned patterns as Moscow or any other major Russian city. And I have friends there, friends, you know, cowering in bomb shelters. So there is no possible way to justify this. Do you think these protests are going to continue? Yes, absolutely. And since the, you know, reality of what is happening is already dawning on people who aren't really following any news at all, families are stranded in Russian airports because they were going for a holiday in the middle of all this. And now they can't because the entire European Union airspace is closed to Russian flights.

And people aren't getting anywhere. People are stuck there. People who have already traveled outside of Russia are stuck. When you're trying to book a ticket or pay for your Netflix subscription, it's now going to cost you 2.5 times as expensive as it was yesterday. So you cannot help but notice that something really, really wrong is happening right now. times as expensive as it was yesterday. So you cannot help but notice that something really, really wrong is happening right now. And sure, when these people will log on online and watch the news,

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I am appealing to the people of Russia as a citizen of Ukraine. Ukraine in your news and Ukraine in reality are two completely different countries. The most important difference is that ours is real. We're back with Alexei Kovalyev, the investigative editor at Meduza, which is an independent news website. How does the Russian government typically limit information,

independent information, from getting to people? What's the mechanism? Most Russians' media diets depend on this sprawling conglomerate of state media outlets whose penetration is only similar in their scope to maybe China or Turkey or other places with a very, very strong central government, which is used to imposing its will of the executive power. And it's very centrally managed because I worked in a state news agency. Yes. And when we're talking about Russian government,

it's usually the presidential administration, Putin's admin. And Putin's admin people, they have a direct line to all the major TV networks and state news agencies. And when something is

of very immediate importance to them they kind of micromanage the agenda so I'm looking at I'm looking at leaked screenshots of chats in those I have people there I have sources

in those state agencies and they're sending me screenshots of memos from their superiors like under no circumstances called this war, don't use any other sources than the Ministry of Defense's briefings. And under no circumstances can you refer to any Ukrainian sources. Wow. increasingly pushed out from online news aggregation and cable channels, stuff like that. So we're basically all online. And of course, for example, us, Medusa,

we have doubled and almost tripled our normal audience because, of course, people want to know what's really going on. And there's only so many independent news outlets that are out there, but we still, I'm afraid, not even comparable in scope to the reach of those state news outlets. We are seeing credible reports that the Russian military is not doing as well as might have been expected. As of Monday morning when we're taping this, Russia has not yet taken Kiev.

The Pentagon said Kiev could fall within a matter of days. We're seeing the Russian military is facing very strong resistance in Kharkiv. Are ordinary Russians seeing reports that the Russian military is looking weaker than might have been expected? Russians, if they only consume news from the state media channels, they wouldn't be even aware that there is military action in Ukraine. So it's being sold. Wow! Yes, so it's being sold to the public as the special operation to liberate, that's the word they're using, those newly

independent regions of eastern Ukraine recognized as independent by Russia. Russians who are relying only on state media, they don't know that Russian troops are at this moment fighting around Kiev and Kharkiv and Lviv and numerous other places in Ukraine. They don't know that that's happening? No, because the state media only reports, you know, military clashes and confrontations in those breakaway republics, because the operation is being sold to the public as liberation of those, you know, our fellow Russian speaking Ukrainians, our brothers from the yoke of these Nazi junta. And I'm not exaggerating. This is the word they're using in those reports. Nazis.

Nazis, yes. So that's what people who are only consuming state media are seeing on their TV screens. And Russians who are consuming things like Medusa, are you able to get the word out? I mean, are you reporting that the Russian military is not doing as well as would be expected? That's what we've been doing 24-7 for the past week. I've barely had any sleep in the past week.

And that's all we're covering, basically. We hopefully will have a reporter on the ground soon and yes, us and a few other very few remaining independent media are reporting it as it is. At this point my job is basically documenting my country's war crimes. Vladimir Putin said over the weekend

that he's putting Russia's nuclear forces on high alert. How are people responding to that? Are they worried? With really grim jokes? What else can you really do? I mean, sure, I'm pretty sure the depression and anxiety and hopelessness will hit in soon. But, you know, we're really good at dark humor. What's the joke? Okay, you kind of got me with my pants off here. I should have. It's okay.

There are some really, really good nuclear war jokes in Russian. Things don't always translate. I understand that. What percentage of the population, Alexei, do you think is solely relying on Russian state media, which I imagine is easier to access and more pervasive than something like Medusa, an independent outlet? What percentage of Russians are getting their information only from the state? I can't give you an exact figure because it would be really hard to gauge whether people are solely consuming news from state media. But I would wager that for about 60%, it's their primary source. 60%.

Yes, I would say that, especially for the older generation, Russians in the 60s and 70s, they mostly rely on the state media, on television basically. There are no independent TV channels in Russia. That's one way to put it. There is one, but it was stripped of its broadcasting license back in 2014, so it's now only online. So yeah, you've got to jump through a few hoops

to access independent information in Russia, and yeah, that's what prevents a lot of people from accessing it. We started this interview by talking about the fact that people who are protesting are people who know what's going on, right? In order to see this as an illegal war, in order to see this as an illegal invasion, you have to be getting accurate information. You can't be hearing that this is just a special military operation and everything's fine. I want to ask you what you think about the potential that these protests really do succeed if something along the lines of, and you have said it's not an exact number, but if something along the lines of 60% of the country are using state-run media as their main source of information, how on earth does a Russian protest movement continue if most of the country is being lied to? I think at some point, you know, there was, I have to go a few decades back to early 2000s

when Putin just came to power. And this was a year of, this was the first few years where just really never in Russian history have Russians lived so well, so well off. So in that time, millions of us, for the first time, they had access to better consumer goods. They could go for holidays abroad. They could get loans for all kinds of you know consumer stuff that we've never had before so it's this kind of tacit agreement between the between the kremlin and the

people uh so we do the dirty stuff the politics and you get the uh you get to be well off because we're selling a lot of oil, and it's $120 per barrel, and you get a slice of that oil revenue in cheap loans and cheap cars and cheap TVs. And one thing that we ask of you is that you don't get involved in politics. That was part of the deal between the Kremlin and... The economy is good.

Yeah. Stay out of the political stuff. Now the contract is broken. Now a lot of people, no matter what their political convictions, are going to get a lot poorer. And a lot of people will see the deepening chasm between the official rhetoric and the way they actually live. None of the consumer electronics that we've gotten used to is going to be available to us

because no one is exporting either electronics themselves or the spare parts, nothing. So we're just basically rolling back to 1998. And a lot of people are, even if they were oblivious to what's happening now, they're going to start asking questions. And I expect that to happen very soon because we're just standing on the edge of this abyss. I see. What you're saying is so smart. You're saying people might be getting misinformation from the television, from the state-run media, but when they go down to the store and suddenly an apple costs twice what it did yesterday, people stop believing you. They understand that something's going on and they're being lied to.

Yeah. That's what we call the struggle between your fridge and your TV set. Is that really what you call it? Yeah. Yeah, that's a very popular expression. So this week, the TV is definitely winning. But by next week, the fridge may be winning. Yeah.

Yeah. Our show today was produced by Victoria Chamberlain, edited by Matthew Collette, engineered by Paul Mouncey, and fact-checked by Laura Bullard. I'm Noelle King. This is Today Explained. Thank you. you