Today, Explained - Who is Paul Whelan and why does Russia think he’s a spy?

Episode Date: January 3, 2019

Paul Whelan went to Moscow for a wedding. The Russians arrested him, and today charged him with espionage. Amie Ferris-Rotman, Moscow correspondent for the Washington Post, explains how Russia might be using him as leverage to win back one of its own. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello. Hello. Hi there. How's it going? This is Sean. Hi. Hi. Nice to meet you.

You too. Thanks for doing this with us. Absolutely. Yeah. I hope it's okay. There's all sorts of, anything's possible in Russia. So if suddenly you don't hear me, then we can, no, I just mean if the connection cuts. Amy Ferris Rotman is the Moscow correspondent for the Washington Post.

It's just fair to say that if you're a foreign correspondent in Russia and you think that your phone calls are not being listened to and that your movements are not generally being surveyed by the Russian government, you're acting pretty foolishly. But it isn't just journalists who have to be cautious. You might have to watch your six if you're just a tourist going to Moscow for a friend's wedding. It was on New Year's Eve in Russia and Russia's FSB, which is the successor to the KGB service, put out a very tersely worded press statement saying that they had arrested an American three days previously on espionage charges. A 48-year-old American named Paul Whelan was detained and arrested in Moscow while in the Russian capital for the wedding of a friend. He's a former Marine, and he comes from Michigan,

and the Russian government says he was on a spy mission and could face up to 20 years behind bars in Russia if he's convicted on espionage charges. It's also worth noting that his arrest comes just weeks after Russian Maria Butina pleaded guilty to trying to infiltrate GOP political circles and influence U.S. relations with Russia before the 2016 election. I mean, on its face, does a former U.S. Marine in town in Moscow for a wedding, does that sound suspicious? It really doesn't. And all of us are trying to figure out exactly what's going on here.

There have been spies in the past, obviously. And in the recent past, such as in 2013, when an American was discovered and charged with espion and in the recent past, such as in 2013, when an American was discovered and charged with espionage by the Russian government. But he was working for the U.S. Embassy. He was under diplomatic cover, as is usual for spies working, at least in this part of the world, if they're going to be American. So, yeah, he was here on a personal trip. Whelan's company have come out and said that he was here not on a business trip. His family have said it was a purely personal trip. And he seems to have been arrested at a very fancy hotel right near the Kremlin.

What else do we know about this guy, Paul Whelan? What does he do back here in the States? And what kind of involvement did he have in the U.S. Marines? So he's in charge of global security for an American auto parts manufacturer called Borg Warner. They're an extremely large company. They have 66 facilities across the globe, not in Russia, notably, over which Whelan sees security for. He's an Iraq war veteran. He's a former cop. He's from Michigan. He's an animal lover. He's not married and has never been married, has no kids, and has a twin brother called David, who has been speaking to the media about his arrest.

He has a law enforcement background. He was a former US Marine who served a number of tours in Iraq. He does corporate security. It's the sort of personality that you wouldn't expect to be a lawbreaker of any sort, let alone someone who's breaking spy laws. But then we have an interesting moment in 2008, according to releasable records, which we obtained on Tuesday, which the Post obtained from the military. He was discharged for bad conduct in 2008. He was convicted on several charges related to larceny. Or theft, yes. So when I approached his brother David about this, he actually said this was news to him. That's what he told me on Tuesday evening. So that is something that is interesting. That's something that's jumped out at us. And it also makes him a very unlikely target by the CIA to be acting as a spy, if indeed he was.

Or is it the perfect cover? You know, this guy was dismissed from the military, so who would want him? Perhaps. I mean, right now we know so little about this entire case. How is this all being portrayed over there? You're in Moscow. What does it look like there in the media? Well, first of all, it's worth bearing in mind that this happened on New Year's Eve, which in Russia is the biggest holiday of the year. New Year's Day is sort of akin to Christmas or Thanksgiving in the United States

in terms of how important it is. It's a big party event. Absolutely nothing is working. And then the Russians go on a week-long holiday. The government is effectively closed for a week. So it's very difficult to actually see how this is playing out exactly because of the atmosphere we're currently in. But, of course, the story is getting a lot of attention. And there is an element of pride on the side of the Russian state media that they've managed to, quote unquote, nab an American.

What has the response of the U.S. government been to the arrest of Paul Whelan? Has President Trump spoken about it? President Trump is yet to speak on it. The American government was quite slow to respond. The State Department admitted that an American had been arrested, but they wouldn't say, confirm his name, even though the family had come out and said it. This was because of privacy concerns, they said. However, that did

change on Wednesday afternoon. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, in a visit in Brazil, spoke about Weyland's case. We've made clear to the Russians our expectation that we will learn more about the charges, come to understand what it is he's been accused of, and if the detention is not appropriate, we will demand his immediate return. So pretty strong language coming from Mike Pompeo on Wednesday. And shortly afterwards, the U.S. ambassador to Russia met with Whelan, right? In a Russian prison, Ambassador Huntsman also talked to some members of Whelan's family. That's the first time they'd heard anything about him since Friday. How does the Russian government define spying? I mean,

could this guy have just taken a photo of something he wasn't supposed to have and been thrown away for spying? So that is part of the problem here. The espionage law or the espionage law under the criminal code of the Russian Federation is extremely broad. It's not like the one you have in the United Kingdom or in the United States. In 2012, President Putin actually amended the law and he widened it to include pretty much anything. Rights activists say it is broad intentionally, so that all sorts of people could be arrested and detained under this. And obviously, these two countries have a long, complicated history of spying on each other. Oh, yes. How have the rules sort of spying changed in the Putin era in Russia?

Well, in 2010, we saw the biggest spy swap between the US and Russia since the Cold War. A huge spy case broken wide open in this country. The U.S. arrested 10 Russians, accusing them of being secret agents sent to the U.S. with fake names, birth certificates and college diplomas. And I mean, that was just absolutely shocking to everyone who was here. I was here at the time. It was kind of it was like watching the TV show The Americans play out in real life. The spy swap was completed on an airport tarmac in Vienna, Austria. A chartered Vision Airlines jet carrying the 10 secret agents expelled from the U.S. pulled directly behind a

Russian plane carrying four prisoners from Russia. There were 10 illegals, as they're called, part of the illegal program, who were traded here for four, interestingly, four Russian prisoners and who had been detained and caught for spying for the West. And one of them was Sergei Skripal, who is the former Russian spy who now lives in England, who was poisoned in 2018. There is a very long history of espionage happening between the United States and Russia. And of course, we can't forget Maria Butina, the young, flame-haired Russian who pled guilty just before the new year in early December to trying to influence the 2016 election campaign. Flame-haired.

They're definitely going to drop your phone call now. I know. Sorry, I shouldn't have called her that. Coming up on Today Explained, everything that's happening to this American, Paul Whelan, might just be revenge for everything that's happened to Maria Butina. Hello? Hey, Zach Kahn. Hey.

You do marketing for all of the Vox Media Podcast Network podcasts, right? Yeah, yeah. I help people find our shows, like today explained. One of the ways to help people find a podcast is to rate and review it in whatever app you use for the podcast, right? Yeah, so what happens is when someone leaves a rating or review on Apple Podcasts, it actually tells the folks at Apple Podcasts that people are really enjoying the show. And then they actually help rank that show higher, both in search results. So when you're searching for a new show, like a news show, or if you're looking at the top

charts, you're looking for popular podcasts, they often rank shows that are really well rated in those top charts. So what you're saying is like if every person listening to this right now went and reviewed the show on whatever app they use to listen to the show, we could have like a great 2019? It would be huge. We would be so, so happy. And so would many of their friends who would discover this great show. Fascinating. Amy, how might the arrest of this former Marine, Paul Whelan, be related to the arrest of this Russian, Maria Butina?

So Maria Butina is, she's a Russian gun rights activist, and she successfully managed to get some information, get involved with different lobbyists in the United States. She managed to infiltrate the NRA, which is quite remarkable, especially because Russia itself has extremely tight gun laws. It's not like the United States. I mean, she was known here before she went to America as kind of a gun nut. She was in the United States on a student visa and she was caught and she pled guilty to trying to influence the 2016 election. A Russian woman accused of being a secret agent pleaded guilty to conspiracy charges

in Washington Thursday. Maria Butina admitted to infiltrating political groups in the U.S. to gather intelligence. Now today she admitted that she operated at the behest of a Russian official, but she did not admit to being an intelligence officer.

Butina is the first person, the first Russian, who has pled guilty to trying to interfere in the 2016 election. Her detention came as a massive blow to Russia, to the Kremlin, to the Putin regime. And the Russian government has gone to great lengths to portray her as an innocent political prisoner. Putin has even called her a girl. And she's portrayed as this innocent young Russian who's been caught up in the madness that is modern America under President Trump. Yeah, I mean, listening to the radio this morning and hearing people talking about this American who's been arrested in Russia,

you hear American media and American security experts saying, like, this is an insane story. There's no way this guy is a spy. Was the arrest of Maria Butina treated the same way by Russian media? Like, this is insane that the Americans are doing this. There's no way she's a spy? Exactly the same way. Everyone here says she was not a spy. And also she's become a household name.

A massive social media campaign was launched by the government in her defense. The Russian foreign ministry still has a picture of Butina kind of smiling and pulling her hair back in a golden sun-kissed field as their image. So she's totally seen as absolutely innocent. So I think we can draw obvious parallels between that. Americans believe Weyland is completely innocent and has been wrongly arrested, and Russians believe Butina was also wrongly arrested. The US-Russian relationship is in a pretty sad state of affairs.

Officials on both sides describe it as the worst time since the Cold War, and they've also repeatedly said that things were actually better between Washington and Moscow in the 1980s. So, yeah, things are really bad. I've been reporting on this country since 2007 on and off, and it's definitely the worst I've seen it. There's just so many disagreements between the two, ranging from what to do in Ukraine, what to do in Syria, and also, of course, the huge issue of the

2016 election interference, the Mueller probe, the poisoning of the former spy in Britain, and now this. There just seems to be an endless stream of issues which are bringing this relationship down. Is there a chance that this is just tit for tat and this guy, you know, Paul Whelan, got caught up in the wrong country at the wrong time? Absolutely, that a former Marine who was in Moscow for another former Marine's wedding was nabbed by Russia's FSB. Whatever Weyland has done or allegedly done, I think it's also worth bearing in mind he was not completely random in the sense that

he didn't work in Russia, he didn't live here, but he has been visiting the country on and off since 2007 at the least from what we know from his family and from some Russian friends he has here. So he does have a relationship of sorts with Russia. What that relationship is beyond pure curiosity, which is what it seems at the moment, we don't know. But if anyone knows, the Kremlin will know. Is there a chance that Russia just wants to trade back its people? So we'll give you Weyland for Butina? There is widespread speculation that the Russians do want to see a

swap for Maria Butina. It makes sense on some levels. Maria Butina is a very high-level case. Some people I've spoken to who are experts in espionage and experts in Russian espionage in particular have described this potential swap between the two as being that Russia wants to trade a low-value asset, that is, Weyland, for a high-value asset, which is Butina. The US and the Soviet Union certainly did this before. And perhaps the Russians have, perhaps, you know,

they're taking a leaf out of their old Soviet-era playbook. And, I mean, if Butina comes back to Russia without serving the time that she's meant to serve, that would be quite victorious for the Russians. Amy Ferris-Rotzman writes about Russia for The Washington Post. I'm Sean Ramos for him, and this is Today Explained. © transcript Emily Beynon