Today in Digital Marketing - ENCORE: Local SEO and Google Maps

Episode Date: May 30, 2022

In this special stat-holiday encore episode, Joy Hawkins from the Sterling Sky agency (SterlingSky.ca) joins Tod to chat about best SEO practices for your local business. They cover reviews, local spam, what to focus on if you only have an hour a month, and much more.Go Premium! No ads, weekend editions, story links, audio chapters, better audio quality, earlier release time, and more.Get each episode as a daily email newsletter (with images, videos, and links).HELPFUL LINKS:ADS: Reach thousands of marketers with our ad options.CLASSIFIED ADS: Only $20 — more infoMORE CONTENT: Email newsletter, expert interviews, and blog posts.HANG OUT: Join our Slack communityEnjoying the Show? Tweet about us • Rate and review • Send a voicemailFOLLOW US:The Show: LinkedIn • TikTok • FB Page • FB GroupTod: Twitter • LinkedIn • TikTok • TwitchDEALS:Jyll Saskin Gales — Inside Google Ads Andrew Foxwell — Foxwell Founders Membership • Scaling After iOS14 • All CoursesOthers — AppSumo lifetime marketing deals • Riverside.FM podcast recording siteCREDITS:Today in Digital Marketing is hosted by Tod Maffin and produced by engageQ digital on the traditional territories of the Snuneymuxw First Nation on Vancouver Island, Canada. Our associate producer is Steph Gunn. Ad coordination by RedCircle. Production coordination by Sarah Guild. Theme music by Mark Blevis. All other music licensed by Source Audio.(If the links in the show notes do not work in your podcast app, visit https://todayindigital.com )Some links in these show notes may provide us with a commission.Our Sponsors:* Check out Kinsta: https://kinsta.comPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

It is Monday, May 30th. Hello, hello. It's Todd. Bit of a different episode today. It is a stat holiday in the U.S., Memorial Day. And while this podcast is based in Canada, when there's a stat in the U.S., the news slows way down. All the PR people are on holidays, so no news releases come out, no product announcements. The tech reporters don't have anything to report on, and so on. Rest assured, we'll catch up tomorrow on anything that leaked through today. But for today, a full length show devoted to a single topic, local SEO. By the way, this is an example of the weekend additions that you are missing out on because you're not a premium podcast subscriber. A couple of times a month, we do these deep dive interviews with genuine experts. And by that, I mean, not people trying to sell you a course or a mastermind.

And by that, I mean, not the people you hear all the time on all the other podcasts. Much of these weekend editions, by the way, we are interviewing marketing scientists on their new research and how it impacts the campaigns that you and I do every day. For instance, in a couple of weeks, I'm speaking with a researcher who's developed a way for you to determine what brands would make good marketing partners for your brand based on the alignment of your respective social media followings. Sometimes we do deep dives with the platforms. This coming weekend, for instance, you'll hear my in-depth interview with a senior Twitter

ad engineer, and we walk through each and every ad placement that Twitter sells, how much they cost, how they're priced, and so on. All of this is on the premium podcast feed, which you can get to by tapping the link in the show notes or going to todayindigital.com slash premium feed. That feed also has the daily shows, but with no ads, sometimes more stories than the feed you're listening to right now. There are links to every story in the show notes. There are audio chapters, which let you jump to specific stories with a single tap.

There's a private Slack channel. Even the audio quality is better. So, again, the premium podcast feed, look for the link in the show notes or go to todayindigital.com slash premium feed. And with that, here is today's special episode. Well, when people first get into digital marketing and they hear SEO, they think, okay, got it. People search Google. I want our company up top. What people often don't realize, at least not at first, is that there are multiple SEO practices because there are multiple Google indexes. There's video SEO for YouTube, image SEO for their shopping site, shopping SEO, and local SEO for maps and Google business profiles. And as you can imagine, there are lots of practitioners in the local SEO space, but few are as good as the Sterling Sky Agency in Toronto,

which focuses on just that corner of the Google world. Their website is sterlingsky.ca. Joy Hawkins is the owner of Sterling Sky. She has been working in the industry since 2006 and writes for publications like Search Engine Land. She speaks at all the leading marketing conferences you've heard of like MozCon, LocalU, PubCon, and the State of Search. Joy has been kind enough to carve some of her day out to join me. Joy, welcome. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Can we start with a quick overview of LocalSearch? I mentioned maps and business profiles, but when you work with companies, what exactly are you doing for them? That's a good question, because I feel like that actually is something that people get wrong a lot. So when I say local search, I'm not just referring to Google Maps, that is definitely a part of it. But it would be getting essentially any local business ranked on Google. And I would define it as basically SEO for any business where their customers are local. So if you only get customers from a certain geographic area, let's say 15 miles away from wherever you're located, you would want local SEO. So even the traditional organic results for Google are different when you're dealing with local businesses. And a lot of people don't realize that. You don't get the same thing when you search on Google for plumber if you're located in Chicago as if you did the same search on Google located in Seattle.

So that's kind of like what we mean when we say local search. So you're optimizing then for things like location and relevancy sort of at a level above the standard Google SEO best practices? Right. So like, for example, you know, 10 years ago, I may have the years wrong, but about a decade ago, it didn't used to matter. Like if you searched, you know, just like a simple phrase like auto insurance, you would get the same exact results. Like you would get Geico and State Farm and Progressive and stuff. And now when you do those searches, you don't necessarily get these like giant sites. You get small local businesses that are local to your area.

So Google has been really, really evolving how they figure out if the person is actually looking for something local for them. So you'll see even things like shoes or Nintendo Switch or like searches like that actually return local businesses now as well, because Google realizes, oh, okay, like, when you're buying a Nintendo Switch, you're probably going to go to your local store and buy one. Is it is it quite competitive? Like that feels like it's quite new. And how do I say this nicely exploitable, you know, if other if, If my competitors aren't catching up to that yet, and they don't realize that optimizing for a local search is a thing, then it seems like that would

be an opportunity for me to kind of dive deep into it. Am I right there? Is it new enough that there's a window of opportunity? It really varies based on the industry. So some industries, yes. Like I would say, home services are definitely very behind on this, like the average plumber and HVAC company, they're not doing a great job at local SEO. So it's really awesome working for businesses like that, you can get really, really good results faster, because there's not as much competition. But if you're talking like lawyers, for example, they've all been on to this for a very long time. And it's super competitive. So it definitely varies quite a bit depending on what type of business you're looking at.

I want to ask you in a moment about sort of local spam that is out there, what you see working well in SEO, what's not working and so on. But can we talk a bit about, because one of the, I guess the good things about Google and also a bit of its frustration is that they are always adding new features to their platform. Can you walk us through some of the more recent additions that Google has released that small businesses in particular should be aware of? Yeah. So one thing I'll say about Google features, the whopping majority of features that Google adds inside, we call it Google My Business, but they just renamed it so that the Google Business Profile is what they call it now. They're the same thing. So use whatever term you want. But inside your listing on Google. So just to make sure everybody knows what I'm talking about here,

if you do a Google search for your name and your city, your business name and city, you'll usually come up with a listing and it has all kinds of stuff on it, like reviews and an address and phone number and things like that. So that listing Google has given business owners the ability to manage that. You claim it through usually a postcard that you get in the mail. And then once you claim it, there are all these features that they allow you to use that will kind of enhance or enrich your profile. Thing to kind of keep in mind is most of these do not actually impact where your business

ranks. So they're helpful because if your customers are searching for you, you want to make sure you have all the information filled out. Like when you're open, it's a really simple one. People don't put their hours in. Like even over holidays, you see this all the time. Like it says they're open. They're not open.

All the time. Frustrating. So like simple things like that um can really be frustrating to customers so it's mainly there for that like the purpose of these features is so that google can give the right information to your customers how you rank is like a whole nother thing but it most of the features inside gmb are um aesthetic if that makes sense yeah yeah and and they're adding things like like um attribution labels that you can put if you're lgbt friendly and things like that

yes and like they've done so it's kind of interesting the timing wise it's with a lot of the movements right so they um i think it was a year ago they added um black owned like as an attribute um but that was in the u.s only so if you're not in the u.s you can't use that attribute so i know it's kind of crappy yeah um yeah well again it was kind of a response right to everything going on in the states at the time so they do tend to kind of pick and choose what they're um what they're coming out with based on you know what the society is doing and stuff um and i have a lot of transgender stuff yeah and i've also found that that the the attributes and or labels um are also specific to the business

category that you're in yes yeah so some of them are uniform like women-led i think is like every business category you can have that as a attribute um and veteran-led and things like that but there are some that are specific to certain categories. So you know, whether or not you have COVID testing available, that's only available to certain categories, certain business types that would actually have, you know, the likeliness of like pharmacies that would have COVID testing done. Yeah. So it's a new quarter, a new year, what things should the owner of a small or medium sized business be focusing on first in 2022? Yeah, I mean, reviews is always the top of the list, I think, for what business owners should do.

You know, when it comes to optimizing your website and getting ranked on Google, some business owners do that and they do it well. It is it's hard. Like all I can say is that from working in this industry for over a decade, it is not an easy thing to do for a salon. To know how to cut somebody's hair and make them look pretty is a totally different thing than knowing how to get a website ranked on Google. So as far as what the business owner themselves should really focus on, reviews is something that every business should be able to manage themselves and keep track of and ask people to review you. And kind of understanding how Google treats reviews is also kind of helpful. So I think there's a big gap there where a lot of people are like, how is Google okay with this negative review? And people don't really understand Google's policy on that, like they're

big on freedom of speech, right? So Google, like it's completely fine with these mean spirited, rude reviews that businesses get, but they are not okay with ones that are like political or racist or like things like that. So there are, there is a hard line. So we saw like last couple of years, a big movement that Google made was they decided that any reviews referencing mask policies, those are political in nature and Google will remove them if you report them. So there were some pretty big chains in the U S they got a huge amount of

reviews removed because people on both sides, depending on what side you're on, some people are really, really upset about the mask policy. Some people really liked the mask policy and there's like all these reviews about masks that have nothing to do with the actual store experience. Do rankings factor into the search engine results? Like if I have bad reviews or increasing bad reviews, am I being pushed lower in Google? That is a really good question. So what I have found is that reviews

themselves, I don't believe and this is like, honestly, just from my findings, because you're going to get different answers depending on who you ask about this. But what I've seen is that reviews that in and of themselves are not a ranking factor. It's how they influence people clicking on your listing. So click-through rate is a ranking factor. Like people clicking on you, people finding you, your popularity, that all factors in. So if you are competing and you have reviews, and your competitor has 100, people are not as likely to click on you. So that is going to hurt your click through rate,

which over time, would hurt your ranking, if that makes sense. So in a sense, yes. Indirect effect. Yeah, because like, honestly, the average rating, all that stuff, there have been a huge amount of studies done on it that show that like customers really do put a lot of faith in those, which is kind of sad, but they do trust them, right? Even though they're written by complete strangers. So your average rating, the number of reviews to have all that stuff, that is a really big deciding factor on like, if somebody clicks on your call to do. It's funny, too, because I, you know, we all buy at some point from Amazon, and hopefully we all look at the reviews. And I have learned over time that the reviews are nonsense. Like I've,

I've bought stuff that is highly reviewed by everyone and it's a terrible piece of crap. And then I've taken a chance on something that people were saying, oh, this breaks everything. And it's worked out great for me. I think that unfortunately, smart consumers know to look at the negative reviews. So I do this all the time with Amazon. I'll see like 12 glowing positive reviews, but I'll keep scrolling until I find a negative one. And I'll read those because that kind of tells me, you know, are these reviews bought and paid for? Because unfortunately, there was a study just released.

I think it was Moment Feed or Uber All released a study that basically looked at fake reviews. And Google was number one on the list for having the most fake reviews. So it sucks. But as a consumer, if you see a business with all glowing five-star reviews, I mean, that's a bit of a red flag depending on the industry too, right?

Like there are certain industries we see this more in than others. But yeah, it's frustrating. It's a very hard thing for Google to combat combat they have done a terrible job at it so i was interested in watching google's excuse me uh amazon's response to that because when that study came out their response wasn't to say uh well we're going to fix up our our review system their response was to throw social platforms under the bus if you remember remember this, like they, their response was, well, actually the problem isn't really us. The problem is that people are gathering on Facebook groups and they're sharing these negative reviews. And I thought that was a bit peculiar. Okay. So

reviews people should focus on. Are there any strategies that businesses should be paying less attention to this year than they may have in previous years? That's a good question. Um, Hmm. So one thing that has changed, and I don't really think this is something you'd pay less attention to per se, but just something to be aware of. But there was a big algorithm update in end of November, beginning of December. So I think it was like, oh, about a week that it took to roll out. And the big kind of core takeaway from this update, it changed the map pack results. So, you know, when you do a search for Google, you see three results beside a map.

We call those the local map results. That's what I'm talking about here. There's a huge change to the algorithm that determines who shows up there. And what it basically did is it made it so that a business will not rank as far away from their office as they were ranking before. So we saw a lot of businesses, for example, let's say Toronto, huge area, massive city. If you were doing a really good job at SEO, you could actually rank throughout the entire city. Like it was possible in some industries. So we saw businesses that were managing to achieve that with really, really, really good SEO

see a huge shrinkage in how far away they rank. So it kind of comes down to one of those things where like, well, what do we suggest? Do they have to open up more offices now? Like that's the question that we're kind of asking, which is probably what a lot of them are going to do. But knowing that like a single location will only stretch so far and that Google is really trying to hyper-localize the results. My biggest takeaways were like, yes, like knowing that is important,

knowing that your one, your one office is not going to reach, you know, everybody in your geographic area when it comes to Google Maps, like that needs to be something people get. And then knowing that also, like, you know, getting more organic traffic, making sure you get traffic from other keywords that don't show local pack results, things like that have to be a part of your strategy or you're really going to have suffered from that update. Do you have business insurance? If not, how would you pay to recover from a cyber attack,

fire damage, theft, or a lawsuit? No business or profession is risk-free. Without insurance, your assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen. Has Google cleaned up the spam problem they had with local SEO? And what I mean is, you know, if you lived in Edmonton, for instance, you would you'd go to you type in plumbers near me and you'd get returned a whole bunch of clearly fake plumbing websites or quote unquote businesses with names like Edmonton plumbing and plumbers near me.

Like they actually put the use the name near me in the title. And when you went there, it was literally just a lead form. Like it was just a cheap ass website that someone had slapped up. And I guess what they were doing was collecting all of the leads and then turning around and selling them to the actual plumber. So they kind of inserted themselves as a middleman. Does that still exist today? Yeah. So I'm actually working on a big study. It's not released yet, but it's coming out later this year. I'm going to be kind of presenting it at our next local you event all about this topic. The crazy thing is, is like when Google looks at spam, they come out with these reports every year and they say like how many listings they removed and kind of pat themselves on

the back. They always say they're doing a good job. And from a holistic, like when you're looking at it, like from Google's perspective, they look at all industries at once. And when you do that, it actually doesn't look so bad. Like, oh, okay, like a small percentage of listings are fake or spam. But when you niche down, and you get into certain industries, we have some that I'll be kind of presenting on like, we're like 90 plus percent

of the listings that we looked at were fake. So like garage door repair is probably one of the best examples. If you are a garage door repair business and you don't report spam or look for it, you are going to get crushed by it. Like it is everywhere. They're all lead gen, like you're saying. They're fake names, not real businesses. When you call, you get sent to a call center and they filter out your information and then sell the lead to somebody. Or when you call, you get a voicemail that's full. Yes. But usually you get a call answering service because that's how they make money, right? They have to sell your information.

And I remember once actually like calling a listing as a customer and getting that, like having that happen. And I was like, oh my gosh, this isn't a real business. I'm like literally putting my money towards these lead gen people right now. But there is a whole group of people in local SEO that do this.

This is how they get their clients' business. They create these fake listings, and then they give these leads to their customers, and they don't tell the businesses where they're getting them from. I don't want to encourage it, but I feel like I have to ask this now. Does it work? Like, is this a strategy that actual businesses, you know, like obviously no one wants to pay off someone who has just inserted themselves as a middleman. But like, are these services so cheap that the numbers actually work for businesses? It does work.

Like, I mean, I'd be stupid to say it doesn't. If it didn't work, nobody would be doing it. It wouldn't be a problem that's lasted over a decade if it didn't work. So it definitely does work whether or not you know, I suggest doing it, I it is not the business practice I would want to do, because it's churn and burn, right? You only have a listing for as long as you can get away with it, Google is ultimately going to try and find you. And then when they do, you need a new one. So it's like, it's never ending. And you're always having to keep up, you know, one step ahead of Google and their spam tactics because Google does find these patterns and cracks down on them.

And then you see like, you know, there's a new pattern, a new way that they are able to get these listings past Google's radars and fool them. Like it's really actually quite interesting to see the levels that people, the creativity that people come up with on how to get these listings created, like smart individuals behind it. Is there anything that you can do if you're a business owner, and maybe you are a legitimate garage door opening repair company? Is there anything that a business who is stuck behind a whole bunch of these fake listings can do other than just report these sites when they come across them?

Yeah, so definitely, you know, report them. There's a form that Google created a couple years ago for this purpose called the business redressal complaint form. So you can report them. It's, it's endless. Like, that's the frustrating thing, right? And does it work? I've reported a bunch of stuff to social platforms and nothing happens. It does. So again, this comes down to keep in mind that, you know, you as a business owner, your understanding of Google's guidelines might not be accurate. So you might see something, assume it's spam and it's not. So that's the other thing with Google's guidelines. They're not very easy to understand sometimes.

So it can be very frustrating when you report something that's so clearly fake and you're like, why didn't Google remove this? So it's kind of like you have to almost be like a private investigator. You've got to like collect all your evidence and then make sure that you share that with Google. And which is frustrating. Some people like Google should just do this, but it's their business, right? Like that's not going to solve your problem at the end of the day. So, yeah, like reporting it as good.

The other stuff that you could go beyond that, and this is where I think people kind of like shy away from is, you know, there, there are laws against some of this stuff, right? So there's a company called the transparency company that just launched a tool that I've been using. It's Chrome extension and they scan and tell you if a business has fake reviews or not. And what it's cool for is like, if it's a lead gen listing, 100% of the reviews are fake, guaranteed, because they're not a real business. Yeah. So I've been using that in conjunction to

try and like, use that or collect evidence. But if they have fake reviews, that's another thing where there are implications for whoever's behind it. Like there's advertising laws, there's things that they're breaking. I don't know how some of these organizations have gotten away with it for as long as they have, but Google has had lawsuits against some of these businesses over the last few years where they've actually sued businesses for creating fake listings that violate Google's guidelines. So they're, they take a while, but there have been lawsuits over these types of things. So that's another thing, like, you know, if you really want to take it a step further, talking to the media, trying to get it out there,

reporting to the FTC, things like that, like there are some additional measures you can do on the legal side. Google has told us that they update the algorithm, the code, several times a day, in fact, but the ones that get the attention are what they refer to as the core algorithm updates, these big, huge ones, one maybe to a year. And when they roll out, they often will kind of impact the search position, the result position for businesses. Is there anything that we as a digital marketer can do to keep our sites from getting hit from one of these core algorithm updates? Core updates, from my kind of experience with them, I feel like if you continue to see your own, if you're a digital marketer and your clients are getting hit negatively by core updates, you're doing something wrong.

I think you need to reevaluate what tactics you're using because you should be seeing mostly positives. And I realize like you can't control everything the business is doing and what they're paying for. But overall, core updates is a good indication of whether or not you're using the right strategies. There are other updates that aren't necessarily that way. Like you could be doing everything right. Like this one that I was talking about that came out in November. It was not a core update. It was an update to the local search algorithm. So we,

we named it the vicinity update because it all had to do with like proximity and where the business was. You're not doing anything wrong. If you got hurt by that one, that was just Google basically shrinking how far that they were willing to show a business. Like you didn't, you didn't break guidelines. You didn't do anything that Google's penalizing you for just all that reward and benefit that you were getting. They were like, yeah, we're going to give that to this business over here instead.

Cause they're closer to the person searching. Very interesting. Let's say someone runs marketing for a company and SEO is technically on their plate too, but they can only commit like one, two hours a month to it at the most. What should they do with those one or two hours a month to it at the most, what should they do with those one or two hours a month? I would say basic SEO, like onsite stuff, you know, writing title tags, making sure you've

got internal linking. Like I've literally done audits for businesses that don't have internal links on their site. Like this is, this is like basic SEO 101, but like they don't have internal links. You go to their homepage, it's just a wall of text and nothing's linking to anything. And there's no anchor text. And like that stuff moves the needle, not just in the local pack results, but also organic. So like literally go to Moz, look up like SEO 101. And like that stuff is a hundred percent where I would spend your time if you only had an hour or two.

So, so it's, it's taking existing content and improving the on-page stuff, the title tags and the meta content and so on. Yeah, that still moves the needle more than any other thing. I mean, link building, absolutely. But I don't think you're going to have much of a link building strategy with two hours a month. So that might be difficult. Yeah, yeah, definitely. What is coming

from Google this year that you're most excited about? Well, you know, I don't have a crystal ball. So like, I don't know where they're headed. I know that there are, you know, with this with this algorithm update and stuff, there are a lot of businesses are trying to like rethink strategies. So I'm hoping that at some point, Google will fix the problem that they've always had for service area businesses. But who knows, right? So the issue is like, if you're a plumber, and you service an area that you don't live in, you rank where you live, you don't rank where you service. And that has always been like a really big pain point for a lot of service area businesses. So that's something that

Google's never solved. It'd be great if they solved it, but I'm not really holding my breath. I would assume that they would continue to make certain like attributes and things more easy, more accessible. I think they're revamping some of the reports like visually inside the Google My Business dashboard. So, you know, looking at that, seeing how many calls you get, they're trying to make all that stuff easier for businesses to find. So I would expect like continued improvements in those areas, like the metrics and stuff. Are you generally optimistic about the state of local SEO for the next year? Yes. I mean, I love, so it's becoming more challenging. I like that. So I might be weird.

I don't know if everybody likes that. Some people, you know, grumble and like, they're like, Oh, it's frustrating, because now I have to like, rethink all these strategies and stuff. But I like that it's challenging. I feel like it's, it makes it harder for anybody to just do. So I'm up for the challenge. But I'm also like, super competitive. So it's my like, personality type but um i would say it's definitely getting harder harder to harder to scale i hate the word scale like we don't use it at my agency because i don't think it really applies to like consulting type of work but you know having a tactic where you can just easily spin it out for like 100 different business types and get these like awesome results that type of thing really really tough to do in local search. So Sterling Sky, your agency, I mentioned it at the top as being one of the top resources. It really, really is. I've always, your blog is a wealth of information. Can we

talk a bit about what you do? Like, let's start with what kind of company is your best type of client, you know, like your ideal client, the kind of client where you can provide the most amount of value? What does that company look like? Yeah. Well, one of my favorites that are a lot, I have a lawn care client that like, I just, I love working with them because they are so much better than any other competitors, like with everything, their service is better. They're like their customer service, what they actually do for your lawn is better. Like, so it's good to work with companies like that, where they actually do good work. It's harder to work with shady companies where you're like, trying to combat their horrible

reputation. We've had a few of those. So I love home services, because I feel like the majority of them aren't really invested in SEO. So it's great for the ones that are, we're able to make a dent. And real estate agents is another one. So real estate markets been like booming. So it's great for the ones that are, we're able to make a dent. And real estate agents is another one. So real estate markets been like booming. So real estate agents are by default, pretty bad at SEO, like most that I talked to, they're not even targeting the right keywords, like things they're going after are not the things that convert. So we have a lot of those. And the lawyers are another one that have always been like heavily invested in SEO.

They understand the value of it and it's super, super competitive space, but it's also a really good and lucrative if you can, you know, rank well as a lawyer, it's, it's, it translates to a lot of revenue.

And do you, do people hire you, you come in, you do a whole bunch of work and you leave, or are you the kind of system where you set up a retainer and you work with them month over month? Definitely retainer, like, because the problem with SEO, it's not like a set it and forget it type of thing, right? So that that strategy almost never works. Because if your competitors are constantly improving, they're adding content, they're getting new backlinks, things like that,

and you're just stagnant over time, you're gonna have a tough time keeping and maintaining what you've got. So I strongly believe that SEO is not like a one time cost. It's something where as long as you are making money from it, so like, that's a key, you know, you need to be able to justify the marketing expense there, you should be getting more leads and more business because of SEO than you were getting before you invested in it. And that's huge. Like my agency's big on like,

we want to track lead numbers. I don't care about rankings. I want to see like our lead numbers going up, you know, year over year, month over month, that kind of thing. And as long as that's true, then it's worthwhile to continue to invest in it.

So that would be my answer to that. Joy Hawkins is the owner of the Sterling Sky Agency. You can learn more about them at sterlingsky.ca. And Joy's Twitter account itself is its own wealth of information. Follow her at Joy Ann.

That's Ann with an E, Hawkins. Joy, thank you so much for spending some time and being with us and explaining this crazy and complicated world. Yeah, no problem. Always a pleasure.